Is this Pancake Box Acceptable to Support Ceiling Fans & Wall Sconces by the 2020 NEC?

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[@ianclifford31]

Hey Bill I really enjoy how your channel is evolving. Keep it up as people out here really enjoy your channel and the content you are providing for this community. You are the reason I check KZbin every day to see what’s new!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much Ian! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@MeiklesAndDimes]

Home Depot does sell a pancake box that is fan rated. For some reason it’s not located in the main electrical box aisle. You can find it in the ceiling fan aisle. That particular one uses #10 screws, and is marked for fan use.

[@wim0104]

and the screws thread into the back of the box, not just the little lugs.

[@SparkyChannel]

I'll have to check that out. Thanks! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@illestofdemall13]

@@SparkyChannel You can also go online and look up what's in stock at your local Home Depot/Lowes. It will also tell you what aisle. Sometimes they aren't located in the same spot as the others like the other guy above mentioned.

[@jeffreylonigro1382]

Love your NEC stuff! Well done, sparky.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Jeffrey! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@garydudgeon]

Thanks for the great videos Sparky. Happy holidays to you and yours.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@moondogdieselworks3883]

Love your channel, very informative since I’m fresh out of apprenticeship school

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@tedmcdonald3377]

Love these videos, thanks Bill!!!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Ted! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@anthonyelectric6045]

Good review Bill. Years ago we used 3” pancake boxes on joists then the fan bracket was large enough to screw in a lag bolt or #12 pan head screw independent of the box. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@SparkyChannel]

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[@billkoni8347]

Thought y'all may get a kick out of this. I'm remodeling a house and pulled the ceiling fan in the living room down. Once I got the fan off the base plate, I removed the base plate only to discover that, not only was there no ceiling box at all, but the base plate was held up with construction adhesive and two drywall screws into the drywall but not into the joist. How this never fell is beyond me. All I could picture was the glue pulling the paper off the drywall and the fan plunging as it ripped the wire thru the drywall and swinging from the wire like Tarzan on a vine, right through the picture window.

[@RobertLeBlancPhoto]

Another great video. Thanks for the stickers, Bill!

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure, have fun with them! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Jeff-Lawrence]

Hi Bill from Sparky channel Another great episode Thanks again for for another video on code and am looking forward to your next episode

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi Jeff! Another one coming tomorrow! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@heroknaderi]

it was very helpful. ANd i have seen small ceiling fans on this box before. and never seen any problems

[@tommycho9068]

Great video again. Many thanks and happy holiday day to you and your family.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Tommy! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@morlamweb]

I agree with you re: fan support. Yes, the pancake box can be fastened directly to the structural framing members, but thaat ensures only that the box won't fall on your head. The screws which hold the fan to the box must be support by more metal than the little ears in your example box. Pancake boxes which are listed and "suitable for fan support" do not use the little ears for the fixture mounting screws. That's a good way to tell at a glance whether a box is OK for fans or not.

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent point, thanks! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@GerstBladeworks]

I have used them multiple times, and I agree with you however, what I would do is drill out holes around the joist so my 10-32 screws go through the box and are fastened with nuts and lock washers and then lag screw the box to the joist

[@BangBang-jm7mi]

This is one of my issues with the NEC, what is the purpose of marking something as “Fan rated” my opinion is so that you use the appropriate lags or screws that can support not only the weight of the fan, but also the vibration so as to not fall from the ceiling, aside from the fan pancake being slightly thicker and larger screws it’s no different than a normal one. If you look at this specific pancake. You can snap the wings off that hold the 8-32s and use lags in those holes. Making it just a housing for wire. Exactly the same as a saddle box for fans…

[@wim0104]

hey, when it comes to fanboxes: talk about saddle boxes (they still have those in builders/farm yards. love the look) & that grey plastic one with the offset wire pocket (fanmaster? in Hone Despot)

[@HoosierRallyMaster]

I use these all the time. The old houses I work in are pre World War One. The ceiling box is almost always a black enamel pancake box screwed directly to a ceiling joist. And on the second floor the power feed is always into the fixture with a switch loop to the wall. So if you want two switches (with a neutral wire) for fan and light even a fan rated pancake box gets really tight for space. The Saddle box gives you plenty of space to push those Wagos out of the way.

[@kenbrown2808]

saddle boxes are now designed for the fan to be secured directly to the rafter or truss the box is mounted to.

[@nicholaskrein6665]

First off I generally don't comment on anything on KZbin to begin with. I have just recently subscribed to this channel more for shits and grins, upon reading all the comments on here, and what he is explaining to the viewers he is doing a great job of demonstrating what the NEC has put on paper & adopted. You had one particular commentary regarding how the state of Florida is applying the code revisions gradually as that is up to their lawmakers. Second off this brings us to the only final answer on any and all NEC code rules, " the final application/adoption/interpretation/deviation of/compliance of the NEC shall be the Local Authority Having Jurisdiction ". So real easy here if your local inspector will still ok it, not ok it, have much stricter above and beyond application of said rules, or not even inspect your installation beyond your service equipment ( Sadly not inspecting beyond the service equipment is the way it is in 70% of America in residential/light commercial applications) that is the states/counties/cities/villages/boroughs 100% legally binding prerogative. By the way I am a Master Electrician, Master Degreed Electrical Engineer, ICSA Master Certified Technician, been doing this work going on 27 years now, and yes I am in the shit daily 75% of the time, the rest behind a computer screen writing PLC/HMI/VFD/PROCESS programs, control engineering, facilities, etc., perform these tasks in heavy industrial/industrial/petrochemical/utility/power generation sectors. Also previously been a long time non-voting member of the NEC code making panel for just over 20 years. Adult education instructor for industrial electricity, automation/controls. I hardly touch anything related to residential/commercial anymore, and have been doing this for a long time, even I enjoyed watching the tutorials keep up the great work. So in conclusion guys this is very very basic easy to interpret stuff at the residential/commercial sectors of the electrical industry even with the changes, guys/gals working out there if you are having trouble with this please ask your elders in the industry for help on the NEC, I would very strongly suggest enrolling in one of the 1 to 2 day NEC " Preferably Hands On " code classes in you area. GREAT CHANNEL Pass the knowledge to our younger trades persons and create our long lost true craftsman/craftswomen, not just mediocre here for our check only workers, as this reflects on the quality/integrity of the entire electrical industry. In closing Romex/solid wire sucks ass don't miss it one bit, I will take conduit/cable trays/multiconductor cables/THHN&TFFN stranded wire all day long. Give a kid a set of tools, and some old junk to play around with instead of a video game/cell phone, they might just surprise the hell out of you.🖒👌👊💪😆

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks and welcome to Sparky Channel!

[@johnnoel3416]

Good video. This box would be suitable to put a surface mounted light fixture on. Let’s say it was a remodel application and the location of the fixture needed to be where a ceiling joist was located. This box would work perfectly for that scenario, so there is a place for it.

[@SparkyChannel]

Not if it would be possible for someone to put a fan in that spot later on. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Guardducks]

I once saw an electrician stuff roughly 12 wires in a 4x4 box , to run a ceiling fan and lighting. And when the home owner was told that box was to small , the electrician wss not happy the next day because all his wiring was no longer attached and boxes were empty. 😁 you wouldn't know a person who would do such a thing do you? All power to the kitchen was turned off and all wires were capped. Per owners orders. Thanks for the tip Bill , learn something new everyday from you.

[@SparkyChannel]

Good one! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@AOZMONSTER]

NRTL here, I used to spot check hardware stores for counterfeit marks. While there, I did like to see what wasn't listed or rated. Those stores shouldn't be selling a lot of things. Good call.

[@SparkyChannel]

Interesting! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@DanEBoyd]

The Ace near me still sells two-prong adapters and those receptacle adapters which thread into a lightbulb socket!

[@wim0104]

depends on the lugs: needs to be #10 mech screws, grabbing/threading into the back of the pancake. details matter! Or go totally mech with metal hole drilling, more lag bolts directly from bracket to joist, etc...

[@wim0104]

them pancake boxes with the rotating threaded barrels? they give me nightmares. think what happens if screws went in that are a bit too long...

[@robfahey1349]

When I mentioned it yesterday they do have a pancake box that is manufacturer speced for a ceiling fan. It generally has a white opaque cover on the outside to hold the screws.

[@robfahey1349]

www.homedepot.com/p/Westinghouse-6-cu-in-New-Construction-or-Remodel-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Pan-0103600/204845541

[@camassey7]

In a few years nec will require that the whole house shall be wrapped in bubble wrap and people occupying the house shall be starpped down to padded bed so as to prevent any possible injury and be completely protected from all hazards. Bubble wrap must be listed and approved for protecting people from everything. When will it end????

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@mikerose1441]

Trying to protect the public from hurting themselves..

[@garbo8962]

Almost everything must be listed. Think my toilet paper is.

[@MarkLawry]

Stores like Home Depot and Lowes don't give any guidance on which devices are allowed. For instance, they sell very few TR receptacles compared to the vast selection of non-TR receptacles. And then layer on supply-chain shortages and it can be hard to get what you need to meet the NEC code, what is easy to wire (my own code), and the right color (my wife's code).

[@SparkyChannel]

Well put, that's exactly right. TR receptacles is another good example of the consumer having to know what is needed by code to protect himself. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Aepek]

Rarely use pancakes for “fixtures”; and the only time I [we] do, is if we absolutely can not get another box in the framing b/c of obstacles. When we do use a pancake, we do make sure it’s correctly rated for the application needed....cuz who like redoing work after an inspector comes in and says: “Umm, yeah, No”....🤦🏼‍♂️😅 Thx Bill for the video; enjoy these NEC CODE “quizzes” you do. Currently the state of FL is using NEC 2014 codes, and on 12/31/2020 the 2017 NEC Codes will be adopted (think it’s interesting to lookup the NEC Code Map & see what state is using what version; & it’s kinda cool that ones able to actually do this and SEE, if they were ever in doubt, imo. Have a very Merry Christmas Bill, & your family too✌🏼🎅🏻✌🏼

[@SparkyChannel]

Wow! Thanks and Merry Christmas. 🎄 to you and yours!

[@silverrod88]

Thanks for the information you are the best

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@kenbrown2808]

I read that last code language as saying the box only has to be marked if the weight rating is something other than a light fixture weighing up to 50 pounds. but yes, they do want all boxes marked with a weight rating, to make it easy.

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi Ken! It would be nice if they would just write what they want in plain English. Such as English that busy contractors can understand. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@kenbrown2808]

@@SparkyChannel yeah, they do sometimes have trouble with that

[@geo8rge]

What if the pancake box were mounted to a wooden joist and the ceiling fan support screws passed through the pancake box into the wood joist. In other words the pancake box itself was not supporting the weight of the fan. Would that be acceptable?

[@lancerudy9934]

Thank you!

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure Lance! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@doctorhorton]

This was helpful, thanks

[@SparkyChannel]

You're welcome, thanks!

[@HellOnReels]

Can you or any of your viewers provide an example of an acceptable box to flush mount an exterior sconce light fixture vertically in a new concrete block wall? Love the channel by the way!

[@smidi0924]

Hi Sparky, Can this box is suitable for front porch light fixtures? Another question, can you install a FP light fixture without a gang round box? than you.

[@FknNefFy]

Thank you sir

[@SparkyChannel]

Welcome!

[@GFlCh]

Bill, can you clarify this at 05:09: 05:09: Vertical surface outlets boxes used at luminaire or lamp holder outlets 05:16 in or on a vertical surface shall be identified and marked 05:20 on the interior of the box to indicate the maximum weight 05:24 of the luminaire that is permitted to be supported by the box 05:29 if other than (23 kg) 50 pounds I know it's probably NOT the case, but reading that, it seems to me, that: Boxes that support a maximum of (23 kg) 50 pounds DO NOT need to be identified and marked on the interior of the box. Only boxes that support a maximum of OTHER THAN (23 kg) 50 pounds need to be marked on the interior of the box.

[@TM-dh2xb]

Exactly the way I read it. And further, to say essentially that an unmarked box would be by default rated for 50 lbs.

[@MitrovichtheMagnificent]

It's home depot's job to sell all the options a manufacturer makes, not sell only what the code says. It's the job of the electrician to know the code and know when he wants to defy it (idk why but he would)

[@timrich6755]

As he said, they sell it as applicable. This is false advertising. It is not applicable. That said, it may have been stocked wrong, or restocked by a customer.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@timrich6755 To be fair, I should also say that they have had inventory problems related to Covid.

[@MitrovichtheMagnificent]

@@timrich6755 well either way there's outdated methods that are still "safe", using quotes because just because something is not to code doesn't mean it's not safe so as long as it's safe and gets it job done they will probably sell it and it's not their responsibility to follow code, it's yours and your ass if you decide against is better not there's

[@illestofdemall13]

Pancake boxes are usually used for small lights, not fans. We always got the fan rated ones when needed.

[@Lainenee]

Hi Bill - A hypothetical question: Is there any reason you couldn’t use the supplied #10 screws if you were installing a light fixture (up to 150 lbs) instead of the #8 screws? Thought being you could future proof the outlet box for a ceiling fan that way.

[@turtletank5838]

Turtles are adorable

[@MrOlvidado89]

Thank you for the useful information brother 👍

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure!

[@mail06513]

Thank you.

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@tenthdimension9836]

Home Depot sells all kinds of products that are not allowed to be used under many different codes compromising multiple trades. A couple that comes to mind are the flexible tailpieces for drains and piercing saddle valves. Plumbing code says their a no-no but they sell a million of them.

[@SparkyChannel]

I've noticed that too!

[@williamthomas2278]

Too bad nobody likes government regulations eh

[@ogz7469]

Flex gas line

[@richardgray1730]

you do not tallk about box fill. I would mention a past video about box fill. this pancake box has a 6 cubic inch fill number which means you can only pull one 14/2 to this box… For fan locatiions I like to pull 14/3… so this pancake box would be unaccaptable for me to pull a 14/3 to it…

[@bobniles1928]

If you lag thru the box into the joist, the box is not supporting the fan. I use them often this way.

[@lambition]

Pancake boxes are not rated for ceiling fan and the manufacturer ir Home depot is not advertising it as suitable for ceiling fan mount. So, I don't see any problem with them keeping them on shelves. I use pancake boxes when the location of light fixture is in the middle of joist or stud.

[@bradley3549]

SOME Pancake boxes are, and some are not. Really no different than any other ceiling box. Some can be used for fans and some can not.

[@williamstanton6710]

Love the Channel Wild Bill Is the NEC handbook worth buying?

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes but the price will make you wince in pain! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@packetguy42]

You say that this box shouldn't even be sold. That's your voltage-chauvinism talking :) These boxes are widely used by us low-voltage installers for WiFi access points, surveillance cameras, and speakers -- all widely used in both commercial and residential settings. I agree with everything else you said regarding their application for fans.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks for the information!

[@bryankrall8302]

To my understanding of the 2020 NEC if you put a box in a ceiling where a fan could be installed in the present or future it must be at least a 70’pound fan box. Is this correct?

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes sir, that's right on! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@bryankrall8302]

@@SparkyChannel Merry Christmas 🎄

[@bgarrison67]

Ceiling fan rated pancake has provisions for # 10-32 screws and are more robust.

[@jfowler702910]

The caveat of the code is the wording "sole support". Two #10 lag screws installed into the fan support bracket, driven through two of the open mounting holes in the back of the pancake into the wooden joist would make it totally acceptable for fan support. Using this method the entire weight of the fan is being supported by the wooden joist, #10 screws and fan support bracket. The pancake is only being utilized as a junction box for the wiring terminations which it is designed for.

[@SparkyChannel]

Let me see if I have this. You are proposing to drill a #10 lag screw through the fan bracket and through the holes in the back of the pancake box? How do you know that these holes would line up and wouldn't the 2 lag screws change the box fill rating? I'm probably not following you correctly.

[@ralphdoid]

The entire weight of the fan is supposed to be supported by the joist regardless, via the box. The issue is how it is supported entirely. The code is making it more clear. For example, prior to code specifying it, framers would sometimes just nail the deck ledger to the house and call it good. Now code requires better fasteners and fastening plans to keep it secure, as well as proper flashing. I suppose the introduction of all the "old work" ceiling boxes brought us to this point (the kinds that have the tabs that swing out to grab the back side of your wall board). I've come across so many situations where people are hanging heavy fixtures onto boxes that are supported by nothing more than the sheetrock.

[@jsncrso]

@@SparkyChannel He's right, most fans come with two 3" #10 wood screws for mounting to a non-fan rated box as shown here. Notice the two holes in the box over top of the ceiling joist. Those holes are for the fan support screws to pass through. The box can be utilized for a fan this way as the fan is supported directly by the joist, not the box. I have confirmed this with an engineer previously on a small commercial project before. The box is specified for this use by the manufacturer.

[@jfowler702910]

@@SparkyChannel the fan brackets usually have slotted mounting holes so you can slide the bracket side to side for minor alignments. The pancake (like the one in your video has multiple mounting holes for different mounting options. Just looking at yours the inner two holes you used to mount the pancake. There are two empty outer holes that could be utilized for accepting a #10 lag screw. Many fans come with 3" #10 lag screws just for this purpose. As far as the box fill question....that's a good question. I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

[@illestofdemall13]

@@jsncrso As long as the inspector passes it then it's all good.

[@christophereaton4694]

Oh hell no. Sconce, okay. Don't ever use a 3.5" box unless you are connecting bx or have a plaster ring on it too. Not enough volume. That's a 4" so okay for 1 14/2

[@andydelle4509]

There's nothing wrong with the old pancake boxes. OK, so they can't be used for a ceiling fan in 2020. But they still are acceptable for light fixtures within the listed restrictions. For example I used them for two french door side lights in 2018 on my addition. I screwed them directly to the 5/8in OSB sheeting for the desired spacing, not even to a stud . But they were more than sufficient to hold two small bulkhead lights and they were flush with the finished stucco, that's why I did it. Oh, and it passed inspection no problem. Home Depot sells a lot of electrical parts you can misuse and get into a lot of trouble. But DIYer beware. You can't legislate away stupidity.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Andy! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@normILL]

Can you do a video going deeper into the 314.27(C) update? I've been told by an electrician that runs his own business that his interpretation is that this means any location that could have a paddle fan installed in it at a later date now requires a fan rated box (which I think is what you're leaning towards), but the master electrician who runs the business I work at says nothing substantively has changed because 314.27(C)(2) references all of 314.27 which includes 314.27(A)(2) which allows you to define whichever location you're at as either "used exclusively for lighting" or "a location acceptable for the installation of a [fan]." Is it truly still up to your discretion based on what's going there for your installation, or do all ceiling boxes located in spots with proper clearance now have to be fan rated? Thanks for your videos! Excited to see the one about pancake box fill calculations! (3 inch vs 4 inch makes a huge difference!)

[@kenbrown2808]

that will be coming in the future. we already discussed it on his earlier fan box video, and he's looking it up. I'll also be looking it up when I get my 2020 handbook.

[@jsncrso]

You can use this box for a fan. However, you must use the included 3" #10 wood lag screws and secure the fan mounting bracket directly to the joist. That's what the two holes in the box allow for and is what the manufacturer specifies. This video, while informative, is a bit misleading about that

[@tevman69]

I was under the impression that most of the ‘Big box store’ associates, in certain departments, where licensed tradesmen. In the past, they’ve been very, very helpful for me. But, not as good as you Sparky.

[@timrich6755]

There was a time when some were previously tradespersons. At either of the box store pay rates, it's unlikely that they are tradesmen unless there are extenuating circumstances.

[@SparkyChannel]

In my experience there are a handful of extremely knowledgeable associates in the store. My advise is get to know them on a first name basis and seek their expertise even if you have to wait for them. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@tevman69]

@@SparkyChannel - Good advice, again. Merry Christmas to You & Yours!

[@tevman69]

@@timrich6755 - That makes sense, thank you.

[@runningxcdaily]

Can you use these outdoors?

[@Pancake4o]

There 2 pancakes box ,one for chandelier , an other paddle fan which is more stiffer

[@SparkyChannel]

Both would need to comply with the new codes. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Chris_In_Texas]

That is just like all the non-tamper resistant outlets that they still sell at the big box stores still.

[@aaron74]

It's probably okay to replace a bad non-TR receptacle with another non-TR receptacle in a residential dwelling pre-dating when TR receptacles were required. It's a repair. But new construction or additions to an existing house would require current code installations.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yep, same kind of thing!

[@illestofdemall13]

@@SparkyChannel www.homedepot.com/p/Westinghouse-6-cu-in-New-Construction-or-Remodel-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Pan-0103600/204845541

[@illestofdemall13]

This fan pancake box should work to pass in 2020 code. The other kind you showed in the video was never intended for fans. We always used them for small lights.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@illestofdemall13 Excellent! It not on the shelves at my Home Depot though.

[@farmerdave7965]

I despise pancake boxes so I never use them. In new construction I install fan rated boxes in all bedrooms to make it easier to install future heavy light fixtures. The main design feature of fan rated boxes is number of threads in contact with the screw threads.

[@SparkyChannel]

Sounds good to me! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@jsparlin1]

those rated boxes for clg fans are pretty cheat..and work well

[@bgarrison67]

Longer screws? Sometimes I mount the bracket to the box/joist with 4" heavy decking screws and not use the machine screws.

[@rcartmell9163]

I have a similar problem: I'm replacing 3 circline fluorescent light fixtures weighing 5 3/4 llbs each with 3 round LED lights each weighing 2 lbs 8 oz. The old lights were installed in 2003 and apparently the electrician installed each fixture using molly bolts to the sheet rock and did NOT use a ceiling electrical box in two of the lights but simply pushed the wire through the sheet rock. The third light did have a ceiling box but is held in place with the wings on the box, that is the box is not attached to any joist. What is the best way to correct this problem. I'm unable to reach to install a box from the attic. Is there a proper way to install a box from below? Thanks

[@leviallen2556]

Many light fixtures function as their own junction box and do not require ceiling boxes. The florescent lights you're replacing are likely in this category. Those LED's *MAY* also, but I would add two boxes for those two that do not have them. You can use round remodel boxes just like the one already in your ceiling. They're rated for like 20 lbs or something like that. Hope this helps!

[@jlyn9047]

Sparky , you said 2020 code says all ceiling boxes 12” or more away from the wall have to be fan rated boxes. Thanks

[@REXXSEVEN]

Well as long as you include the syrup, I don't see why it wouldn't be up to code.

[@SparkyChannel]

And the big lump of melting butter! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@kellybell9235]

That pancake box would be acceptable to mount a ceiling fan if the box isn’t the sole support of the fan. If you lag the fan directly to the stud then the box is no longer the sole support of the ceiling fan and then you would meet the requirements of the code.

[@Vandalfoe]

Exactly!

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent point, thanks! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@lucyfuir6386]

I have been an electrician for 20 years pancake boxes have never been legal for ceiling fans unless like you said marked for that purpose AND #10 screws. We never used them because its just easier than wondering if the inspector doesn't want them or whatever.

[@SparkyChannel]

Sounds good to me!

[@sebastiannielsen]

Does the marking has to be on the pancake box itself, or is it enough that its marked in the manual or packaging? The intent of the ruling is to ensure manufacturer has approved its use as support so it tolerate the weight, then as long as manufacturer has actually approved it somewhere (on the packaging, in the manual, etc) it should be fine right?

[@SparkyChannel]

It has to be marked on the pancake box. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@GFlCh]

The point is, that: 1) An installer who picks up an unwrapped box, perhaps from a pile of various types and sizes of boxes needs to be able to identify the acceptable applications for the box. And 2) an inspector reviewing an installation needs to be able to tell if an installed box (any installed box, accessory, part, or equipment, etc.) is acceptable for the application it's being used in. You telling the inspector that the item came out of a particular package with such and such markings is not acceptable.

[@sebastiannielsen]

@@GFlCh aha now I understand. Here in sweden it isn't neccessary that things are marked on the box and similiar. Its enough that the box or accessory IS acceptable for the application. When a inspector is unsure, they will look it up, either in central databases, ask for the packaging or manual which they then cross-reference with the actual model (so not the wrong box or manual is pursued), or on the internet, or similiar. Or as last resort, email/call the manufacturer to check if the model is acceptable. Which I think its pretty neat, as its an extra manufacturing step/cost if they have to mark the actual box. Its the same with driving in sweden. You don't need to bring driver license, tax receipt/stamp or insurance papers or approval papers with you. You only need a valid ID-card, then everything they look up in the computer. They just type your social security number and then number plate of car, and then they will see everything, if you are allowed to drive (ergo HAVE a driver license), if the car is insured and inspected, if tax has been paid, if all debts is paid, etc etc etc. Actually, its mostly the computer doing all the checking, the police just gets a green checkmark or red cross depending on if its OK or not.

[@danleignone8247]

When I use a pancake box for a fan, I run lag screws through the fan cradle directly into the joist just outside the box, so technically I’m not using the box as sole support. Problem solved.

[@briankucinski1905]

That's the way I always did it before the requirements of the fan rated Box and even with octagon boxes on a backer board I would run 3 and a 1/2 and dry wall screws through the fan bracket through the small holes in the back of the Box into the wood so the wood always held the fan. better than the fan brace itself. I do that with foyer fixtures also.

[@saulgoodman2018]

For the right amount of money. Anything can pass inspection.

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@nickjones333]

Here's question for you guys..when every county around you operates on 2014 NEC code. Do you go by that or stick with current codes....Lots of Grey area here. I don't even own a 17 or 20 book because we don't use that yet.

[@nickjones333]

Which may be an answer to home depot supply. I don't feel like flipping around a code book for answers. Nor do I ever use pancakes or saddles. But still sold around me.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@nickjones333 It's probably best to build per the newest codes if you can. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@lou198]

Depends when your state adopted the code not all states adopt the code when it comes out sometimes might take years and they don’t have to adopt entire code also here we use code according to code that was in force at time permit was issued

[@lou198]

We don’t have county codes in New Jersey it’s a state wide code localities can go above and beyond the nec requirements but not below

[@nickjones333]

@@lou198 That's how it is here. Missouri is on 14. Counties can be at or above. But locally every county is still at 14. I agree with sparky that you should go with the newest codes. However with Home depot and all local supply houses apparently having little to no stock this becomes an issue for some materials. As, someone mentioned before it's the same with TR outlets. I rarely if ever see those in a home even new construction. Also rarely in stock. If they are they cost 3 times as much as a normal outlet. Customers don't want to pay that if they don't have to.

[@sylvesterstewart868]

Exception: Use Orange or Pineapple Juice instead of water, all you need is butter. (If you want to exceed code use coconut oil in the pan.)

[@SparkyChannel]

And bacon!!! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@sylvesterstewart868]

@@SparkyChannel You too and thanks!

[@HBSuccess]

Sconce yes - fan no.Fan requires through bolts, has to be marked/listed

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@MrJose123704]

I really hate pancake boxes due to lack of space

[@packetguy42]

Low-voltage installers love them because they perfectly fit many of the devices we are installing, such as WiFi, speakers, room sensors, cameras, etc.Much LV gear maps to a 4" circle.

[@bgarrison67]

Space is no problem with the canopy for me unless the receiver for the remote control makes it a pain

[@joaquinsuarez6090]

Yeah, but there are some situations where they are your only choice.

[@morlamweb]

Is the box UL listed and does it state "suitable for use as fan support"? If so, then yes; otherwise, no.

[@SparkyChannel]

I would look for #10 screws attaching the box to the fan as well. That's an important upgrade. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@lovinhouse374]

Sparky! I have a small chandelier to install and the mounting box is a pancake box. The problem is, the rod that threads through the cross bar basically bottoms out on the box, leaving no room to feed the chandelier wire through. Any suggestions? I was hoping to find a 1” spacer (6” diameter) between the pancake box and chandelier canopy that would lower the cross bar, but not having any luck.

[@leviallen2556]

The proper fix is to trim the threaded rod and re-insert the little plastic bushing into the rod. It will protect the wires from the sharp edges of your cut. In the field, many electricians remove that center knockout and drill a hole into the framing member to make room. - Not the right way to do it but commonly done. -

[@drewc3651]

In Virginia, my last inspector said metal pancake boxes are not allowed in ceilings any more. We have to use plastic pancakes

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@drewc3651]

@@SparkyChannel no problem

[@stashoski2675]

The problem in when someone use for fan and there no inspection

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that's the problem. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@DavidBerquist334]

Is it ok for a small ceiling fan

[@SparkyChannel]

No, not this one. I put links in my video description for a couple of pancake boxes that are rated for a fan though. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@MrTooTechnical]

Made in Canada electrical box. Woohoo

[@SparkyChannel]

Woohoo! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Timothy-NH]

I paused at @1:40 to say this: I was not sure until you said it had #8 screws; I believe that a fan required #10 screws, so no it’s not acceptable. However, I’m not an electrician, so I’ll listen on now.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, the #10 screws and extra metal support where the screws attach make the box much beefier.

[@markmadlena6009]

That is not sold as a fan rated box. The boxes for fans are clearly marked for fans. If you really want a good flush mounting to the ceiling just put a 2x4 and mount it to that without a box. This works for new and remodeling.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@bgarrison67]

Some localities boxes are required for all devices. I always use 2x4 or preferably 2x6 and a fan rated pancake. You can do chin ups all day and it'll never come loose.

[@billveek9518]

I quit using pancake boxes and switched to flapjack and waffle boxes

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL!

[@johnstancliff7328]

"My oppinion" right. Rarely have I come across a fan weighing more then 50 pounds.... 52" fans are the largest I'll ever come across... I use a 52" or smaller fan...

[@SparkyChannel]

I understand. Thanks John and Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@johnhill8958]

It is not so much that the fan weighs 50 lbs... in the box. It is a matter when the blades build up so much crud, or are not attached properly that they get out of balance and shake the fixture on high speed. Take the wheel weights off one tire and then go drive down the Interstate highway at 70 mph and you'll understand what I mean.

[@chipbennett2845]

My inspectors always told me that these boxes are not legal for any purpose because they do not have enough cubic volume to support the required wire fill. Even with #14 wire if you count the two incoming current carrying conductors plus the two from the fixture, you have automatically exceeded the wire fill limit for the box.

[@eddiew2325]

who cares about the wire fill

[@DrSocky]

The wires from the fixtures don’t count in the wire fill calculation. They are wire nutted to the current carrying conductors essentially “pigtailing” them in a sort of sense. Each wire connecting to a wire coming in to the box counts as the same wire

[@pointbreak8293]

To me, a lot of the codes contradict themselves and it always seems like you have a “keyboard warrior” sitting behind a desk make up a bunch of crap to make it harder and more difficult for an electrician, hvac tech, plumber etc to do their jobs. thanks for the informative video as always Bill... awesome as usual sir and have a great Xmas....👍👍👍

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, I agree. IMO This is an area where the code does contradict itself. That's why I mentioned my interpretation could be a little controversial. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@illestofdemall13]

@@SparkyChannel It isn't very difficult like some people are making it out to be. I knew the difference between a pancake and a fan rated pancake box years ago and I am not an electrician. I am a lighting installer/designer. All fan rated boxed always had the #10 screws. Maybe I just had a knowledgable teacher. Lol

[@hangngoaigiare]

Easy fix just mark those pancake box as fan and light fixture rate.

[@Jamo12]

For a manufacturer to mark their products with certain ratings, the products have to be approved by the NFPA (with of course the exceptions listed in the code). So by marking them yourself, even if it technically could handle the device that you are installing, would not be up to code because that specific device was not approved. However, I am all for freedom in doing what you want in your own house.

[@mikerose1441]

4:54 ....LoL, "Trusted Home Depot", (that's why Licensed Electrical Work is not a Hobby...)

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL!

[@packetguy42]

@@SparkyChannel Sorry, gents, but it has nothing to do with trusting Home Depot, or any other supplier. Suppliers supply, installers install. Installers are on the hook to know and follow relevant codes. In fact, HD employees are instructed that they can't discuss code compliance or product applicability in any way. This came about after a 2018 class action lawsuit involving a wood product marked "genuine mahogany", and acknowledged as such by HD staff, which was actually a lower grade species of mahogany, and thus less than "genuine". Now all HD can say when asked about code compliance or product applicability is "the manufacturer says...".

[@ssrrocks22]

As a once licensed electrician in California and working in the commercial industry. Trust me I have seen more so called licensed electricians install non compliance equipment in commercial buildings over the years. Many of them our company was called in after the building failed an inspection. I tought my crew to always look before you install anything, it's less costly to do it right the first time.

[@francisbailey3831]

My answer to the question is no.

[@SparkyChannel]

Correct! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@mweezy]

Yes but not securely

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that sounds right.

[@JohnSmith-lw2bm]

Only a true idiot would try to hitch a ceiling fan to that flimsy thing. Code or not, it isn’t up to the job structurally.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks John! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@lobsterman5786]

Cmon, we all know what’s printed or not printed on something in terms of safety is first dependent on laws and regulations put in place by people who don’t know what they’re talking about, and lawyers who are paid to protect the mfg. you failed to answer whether or not the bo- will hold a fan, which can only be done by testing. By the way, don’t give plastic bags as toys to a two year old......I used to, but stopped when they printed “this is not a toy”. Really?

[@kenbrown2808]

grow up. safety codes are written by a combination of testing labs, trade professionals, and insurance investigators, and Underwriters Laboratories IS a testing laboratory.

[@SparkyChannel]

OK, I understand your point of view on this. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@timrich6755]

I'm glad Sparkey added the picture of too many wires to show why code is written. There are a large number of inexperienced installers who create safety problems because it seemed good in their own (untrained) eyes. On the other hand, many folks install prudently by getting advice or looking up regulations. So, the latest round has regulations that cover some of the "I can't believe that someone did . . . .". I've done enough remodeling that I understand why code gets very granular and why manufacturers protect themselves. That said, the NEC does a better job of updating code than other areas, removing, replacing, updating for today's building materials.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@timrich6755 that reminds me of a project years ago, where the homeowner tried to buy his own material and thought pan boxes were great because they could go anywhere.

[@lobsterman5786]

@@kenbrown2808 you just repeated what I said...

[@Joe-rw1bb]

No

[@SparkyChannel]

Correct! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Joe-rw1bb]

@@SparkyChannel I hope so. I’ve been an electrical contractor for 30 years 😄. Merry Christmas 🎄🎁

[@spencerwyche2552]

Its not pronounced aplickable its more like appl icable.

[@wim0104]

what about apple-lickable ;-)

[@normILL]

www.gotoquiz.com/what_american_accent_do_you_have