Is Turn-Based Combat Outdated?

[@Skooch]

When you think about it… and I mean reaaaaaaally think about it. Arguing on the internet is turn based combat.

[@nayonaisemustard921]

Yeah what me use the optimal no your wrong strat and ignore all logic ignorance is optimum

[@khongbiettuc7445]

My best move: "but...your mother"

[@tcoogz1379]

*Internet Contrarian called for help… but no one came

[@cedenoa001]

SKOOCH IS HERE!!!

[@damasake]

If use zoom or discord it becomes an arpg?

[@boredhuman6512]

I really love turn based rpgs and the success to most of them is just... strategy. A turn based rpg where you do nothing but press a button and win over and over is annoying. But if the game gives you this many options and tells you to optimize how you use them its great, I'm not good with strict timing or aiming, but I know how to minmax and thats just what those games are but more moment to moment.

[@yargolocus4853]

you feel like a kindred spirit

[@yakkocmn]

Yeah! Learning a game's systems to the point where you fully understand mechanics, skill interactions, and buffing (and sometimes even exploit by hitting 9999 damage cap or one-shotting bosses) can be super satisfying. I wanted to keep this video a bit more on the concise end, but I almost regret not adding another section about that idea. I think some games can end up becoming a "numbers game" where grinding and levelling means more than builds and overall strategy, and that's no fun, but seeing a team idea pay off or just scraping by a boss you were struggling with by using a new strategy can be incredibly rewarding.

[@boredhuman6512]

@@yakkocmn thanks for responding, just finished the entire video and I'm glad you talked about everything that you did I am tired of people complaining about turn based games being outdated. I also would like to add to this topic that I recently played the ruined king and that game really has a special place in my heart for this exact reason- minamxing just how much damage I can do in a single turn while ensuring I can even survive bosses attacks was immensely satisfying so I recommend it.

[@thegamer9302]

Most of nippon ichis software stuff seems designed to scratch that itch.

[@wyattmason8838]

Something something final fantasy XIV online and similar systems?

[@torokami1109]

Sometimes I don't want to play an action RPG where I need to be moving and acting all the time. Turn-based RPGs can be both more relaxing and more strategic than other RPGs. I don't get how some people think they are outdated and should be replaced, they are just their own genre entirely.

[@zad_rasera]

Yeah, same.

[@davidtowers1863]

I agree. Its why i hate that final fantasy is trying to be kingdom hearts but worse. Or for 16 specifically a blatant copy of berseria

[@charmedcharmed3511]

Totally agree! I want more TB RPGs -- remake or remastered are welcome too!

[@infernaldisdain8051]

@@davidtowers1863 They've been pretty upfront that they are trying to be more DMC/Kingdom Hearts than anything else with FF16.

[@davidtowers1863]

@@infernaldisdain8051 And it's sad. At least theres still hope for bravely default

[@parkerpayne6382]

14:02 Flipping this on its head, Earthbound has a really cool game mechanic where a characters healthbar will slowly tick down after talking damage. A character CAN take actions while still their health lowers and will only die when their health reaches 0 EVEN if it’s a fatal attack. This means you can save a characters life and heal them even if they’ve taken mortal damage.

[@sleipnir2034]

Yes but that mechanic only really comes into play late game when your health is high enough to make use of it. In the early and mid game your health will hit 0 before you can have them take an action.

[@theegreenone]

Earthbound’s gameplay is extremely frustrating in so many ways, but that mechanic in particular has always been genius.

[@ApexGale]

What's so good about Omori's gameplay is that the entire foundation is used entirely as a paradigm shift to clue you into the unstable mental well being of the main character. You aren't just playing a game - you are experiencing how this character perceives himself and his friends as they go on imaginary adventures. Sure, the game is turn based because that's how it was designed. But the game is also turn based because that's literally how the main character perceives his battles.

[@earthboundisawsome]

I always thought it was a really cool parallel how sunny saw the real world. Even something as simple as swatting flies for a part time job still needed a battle in his mind.

[@kevin76165]

So what makes the gameplay so good is something that only affects the story

[@HalfOtaku]

@@docwhammo fr, when's the sequel coming out

[@iantaakalla8180]

@@earthboundisawsome perhaps the coolest detail is the recycultists’s lair. The crazed people exist, but their lair doesn’t, and Sunny imagines that it does. This happens on the final day on the Kel route. It very neatly shows how Sunny is somewhat comfortable enough with his friends that Sunny can imagine an adventure with his real friends instead of fake friends.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

It is important to keep things in perspective in regards of why FF is moving away from a turn based system, despite other series finding success in it: Yakuza like a Dragon has sold more than 490,000 copies (as reported on October 2022). Dragon Quest XI has sold over 6.5 million copies. Persona 5 has sold 8.3 million units globally but that is including the original version, the Royal version (3.3 million across all platforms), Persona 5 Strikers and P5: Dancing in Starlight. For those series which until now they have a more niche franchise, that is huge and impressive numbers in comparisson. But for a more mainstream series like FF, which FF XV has sold 10 million despite all its problems and beign in way less platforms (like Nintendo Switch) not so much. I am not saying that a turn-based FF game with a AAA budget could be done in the future, but now it may not be the right time.

[@jminich887]

Shout out to the SMT series for having quick, snappy, and engaging regular battles while also having that risk factor if you don't know what you're doing, and also having difficult bosses requiring strategy and adaptation.

[@pandequeso]

And a lot of variety between spin offs

[@ted7445]

SMT have their own way to make the turn base gameplay more fun than already was... i think it could be a pioner imo but i think it was way more depend on RNG so i don't really surprise if some people really hate that

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

The Press Turn system is so addictively good but the Devil Survivor series has some of the best writing in gaming.

[@onemoregodrejected9369]

SMT? what's that? doesn' ring a bell at all

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

@@onemoregodrejected9369 It's the one where you have your back to the wall.

[@SonicHaXD]

I feel like this is a video Dunkey would really appreciate XD

[@TamagoMAS]

ehh, no donkey kong 0/5

[@minusone7529]

You are everywhere

[@azeria1]

Dunkey hates Christmas since you have to take turns giving and opening gifts

[@DiceOL]

Nah Dunkey is too far up his own ass

[@MrBromansa]

Dunkey can eat my Chilean fried chicken meal with a side of spiral fries.

[@beegyoshi800]

I've heard people say that Pokemon's battle system should be reworked and that it should be in real time, but I could not disagree more. People think that it's too simple, but in reality, Gamefreak just doesn't use it to it's fullest extent. Sure, in the single player mode, all you need to do is spam your strongest move, but there's so much more to it. If that's all Pokemon was, there wouldn't be a huge competitive scene filled with diverse strategies across every single game, and this could apply to other rpg's too. Maybe it's not the battle system itself that's at fault, but instead, how that battle system is used

[@inkylynx2777]

Maybe that's why Colosseum is more interesting since every battle's a double battle. There's more range in how the moves operate and interact with each pokemon on the field, like Earthquake, Ice Beam, and Rockslide will all hit differently so you have to optimize and strategize. Plus some moves and abilities finally get to shine, like Plusle and Minun can actually be used, and some moves like Pollen Puff can be used to the fullest extent. There's also the fact that you have 15-18 types depending on which gen you're in and only a handful of them can be represented on the battlefield at once. If you have a staraptor while your opponent has a raikou, you have to spend a wholeass turn swapping out your staraptor for your garchomp in a singles battle. Whereas in doubles, you can just use Earthquake on the raikou since you already have it out *and* your staraptor won't get hit from it. Boom. Battle's more interesting. Maybe that's what Temtem got right...

[@terrortaste6389]

Holy shit thank you for saying this! It blows my mind how anyone can say that the pkmn battle system has no potential when really it's only the campaign that sucks due to gamefreaks heavy emphasis on easy-ness. I really wish that pkmn games would overhaul how they distribute moves and items entirely as all of the best moves and items are gated behind battle frontier esque postgame areas. This way, AI trainers having good pkmn builds and team synergy would actually be justified allowing for smarter game design overall. And adding onto what @Inky Lynx said, double battles would allow for a lot more strategic variety. With double battles, you can have a lot more party diversity like screen setting, tailwind and follow me abusers and trick room strats.

[@mister_raindr0p]

@@inkylynx2777 same, like at least push your opinion for a spin off and don't delete what a lot of people love, showdown is popular for a reason

[@esotericpince]

i love the channel pikasprey for this reason, he exploits the battle system to absurd levels to soft lock (and soft lockpick) the games. fan games have also been proving that the system still has more cool gameplay to give.

[@wereowl9369]

I'm just hoping that game freak eventually puts in a fear strategy and make all of the little kids cry

[@luqmanloki4803]

Out of all of this, I'm more of the opposite type. I just want to watch my characters do the cool moves and I'm just there to make the strategic decision. So traditional turn based games have always been my jam. Ofc I love to play more modern variations of it. But taking my time and relaxing through the combat has always been how I enjoy playing games.

[@petergilveet6666]

EXACTLY how I feel

[@hyruleguy9569]

Interenting. I've always found turn-based very unnerving because of the fact that you can't move and are always going to get hit. I find the lack of direct control over the characters kind of frustrating.

[@jensenraylight8011]

yes, turn based combat skill and magic always look way cooler and epic, it had a satisfying impact to the animation. compared to if you play a hack and slash game, the skill and magic vfx became like a christmast light shitshow.

[@jensenraylight8011]

​@@hyruleguy9569 you can always defend though, but on the other hand, in turn based rpg, you've the freedom of using whatever magic, skill, and experiment with a status effect, then enjoy the Satisfying skill & magic animation. think of it like a chess, but with extra Hp & Mp management, and the skill to exploit enemy weakness, all of that is the main attraction of turn based rpg i played both, so, if i'm super exhausted, i rather play a turn based rpg, because it just so laid back and didn't require much muscle reaction to play. but if i'm in a mood for a good game, rpg with realtime combat is my go to.

[@arocomisgamusclademork1603]

Speedrun way basically bad finishing endgame mainline unprepared characters strength planning final boss and tougher enemies

[@meisterschwert]

You see, the "Action RPG quotes are unhearable" can be fixed by making boss dialogue louder (see: Malos's quuotes are easily hearable in 2 and anybody who's fought Jin knows about the 'EMPTY MOMENT!' that you easily hear.)

[@lightanddarklove]

Hands down my favorite turnbased combat is in all the Mario RPGs. The intensity of barely having enough health and pulling off the perfect timed hit to finish the boss is so memorable. And all of the Mario & Luigi music slaps, Yoko Shimomura sure knows how to write em.

[@Aaaa-g6u8e]

It's a shame in this day and age Paper Mario changed for the worse and Mario & Luigi (my personal favorite rpg series) has been dead for years and there's little to no signs of a revival.

[@tylerhorn3712]

@@Aaaa-g6u8e Super Mario RPG was far above most games of its time. Paper mario attempted to use the same formula, but it didn't feel as rewarding. Also, they didn't have the hidden stuff (culex boss fight for starters, the casino unlockables and 100 jump challenge for more difficult)

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@tylerhorn3712 Super Mario RPG's only problem was being released in 1996, after Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Secret of Mana, Dragon Quest and the other lineup of SNES RPGs. It also had to compete with the PS1 and N64 on store shelves.

[@creeperizak8971]

@@Aaaa-g6u8e didn't the guys who made Mario and Luigi go under a few years back?

[@Aaaa-g6u8e]

@@creeperizak8971 Yeah, that was AlphaDream, and they unfortunately went bankrupt.

[@illum6]

I'm honestly surprised that Into The Breach doesn't get a mention. One of the best turn-based games I've played, with stellar strategy and a banger soundtrack

[@FullMetalB]

It's not mentioned because there aren't really non turn based strategy games. If there is an into the breach where you just run around the board punching robots....there isn't any strategy there. RPGs have turn based and action based combat which is why you have camps of "action rpgs are better" or "turn based are better".

[@PikaPenny17]

@FullMetalB Umm, RTS is a full genre, including but not limited to Starcraft and the original Warcraft? If RTS existing don't invalidate your point, I am going to need you to clarify what you mean?

[@aelanarbrightfield6817]

Honestly it's more of a puzzle game than a turn based game, doubly so since you are aware of exactly what the monsters will do next and they don't change it, they don't really have a turn so much as they are a side effect of *your* turn

[@FullMetalB]

@@PikaPenny17 yes, I actually completely forgot about the RTS genre when wording my comment lol. My point is this conversation of turn based combat being outdated typically only revolves around RPGs. No one is out here complaining that the newest xcom or that into the breach is not action based and instead is turn based.

[@jongameaddict]

Slugcat detected

[@dragonITH-nk3yk]

Etrian Odyssey does a very good job of feeling like a classic adventure through an unknown and dangerous world. When you're not playing on a casual difficulty (And even if you are in EO4 and EO5) the game is hard as BALLS. Even regular enemy encounters can leave your guild battered and some straight need to be avoided in some cases, and that's not even mentioning the F.O.E.s, which are meant to be avoided your first time seeing them while exploring, each one having their own gimmick on how to avoid getting into a fight with them. The game does a good job of making the labyrinth feel dangerous and insurmountable, which makes it all the more satisfying when you're able to metaphorically run circles around early game F.O.E.s or just bea them to a pulp for valuable loot and exp. The gameplay loop is very satisfying, and takes full advantage of the limitations of the DS and 3DS.

[@yakkocmn]

oh man i've never played EO, but i played a bit of the Persona Q spinoffs and i really enjoyed the map drawing mechanic as well

[@dragonITH-nk3yk]

@@yakkocmn If you want to get into them, besides from EO3, every game is on 3DS, with the first two games being remakes that added a story mode which has a much more in depth plot with specific party members rather than the mix and match of classes you have in classic mode. The stories are pretty decent, and are worth going through, especially if you're new to the formula.

[@c-domination]

Glad to hear someone talking about EO! I think it's team composition why it feels so hard. Even with 5 character slots, the team feels incomplete in a good way, as in everyone has to pull their weight to bypass any weakness like lack of ailments or binds to survive encounters. Also add conditional drops, dungeon puzzles, FOEs and you have a winning formula for a turn-based rpg. I still have hope for a EOU3 or EO6 on the switch.

[@weirdlypicturedbeing2122]

Yea, despite EO's combat seeming simple or easy to oversee, it goes a long way with what it has. The random encounters come out to clap you, but there is always a way in which things can work out and YOU can make that happen. It's rewarding This is the series that convinced me to use the Defend command and stop hoarding items as much (It's not an addiction, I swear I can stop anytime). I never had to think about defending much with other games. But to be fair, I'm not the most experienced JRPG guy so perhaps there's other examples I will get to know.

[@ROXASOWEN]

It's also super satisfying to map stuff

[@jvts8916]

Generally, turning turn based combat into action isn't the instant improvement people think it is. If anything, action RPGs have more things that can go wrong. Take the main Monster Hunter series for example. Knowing when to avoid an attack is key, but there's always that one monster that screws players over by having a hitbox that doesn't match the attack animation at all. Speaking of enemies, they need their own AI to be smart enough to give the player a hard time as well as some kind of indicator that you're damaging them. Even musou games will make sure that the enemy captains are more aggressive in both combat and taking territory than the often ridiculed grunts. On top of having to figure out how enemies work, these games also need characters that are fun to use. If the devs struggle with simple yet fun turn based combat, don't expect future games to be better when they tackle more complex design. Besides, even the smallest changes can greatly affect the experience.

[@IGetIntoArgumentsForFun.67]

It is an instant upgrade when they make it an action game and treat it as such from the get go , as in they spend their time and resources making and perfecting the game as an action instead of Turn-based combat .

[@thegk-verse4216]

You just said that going from turn based to action is way more complex to make. To me it sounds like an instant improvement.

[@jvts8916]

@@thegk-verse4216 that is the shallow mindset, yes

[@spudster8887]

In general I think mediocre turn based games are better than the best action games but that's just me. Turn based games place emphasis on set up, and if you get that wrong the games will punish you. In action games that sorta thing is genrally less important, which to me results in a worse rpg

[@Lifesizemortal]

And then there's me clapping that Squenix is remaking all their turn based games as ARPGs and I can actually appreciate them for once because I'm not bored out of my mind while experiencing what most call a "masterpiece"

[@lily_littleangel]

Some very good examples of turn based games: - Chess - Draughts - Go - Backgammon Point is, turn based games have always been a huge part of humanity and I doubt they will go away soon.

[@nowie4007]

Facts

[@Xenonia]

Thank you so much for the Omori spoiler warning. I had dropped the game 3 weeks back because I wasn't feeling the turn-based nature of the combat, but as you were talking through your video, I got inspired to give it another chance! I always loved Undertale, and I knew there was some value in that genre, but yeah, time to go finish Omori now :D And then give the Shin Megami Tensei games a solid try once I'm done! Great video btw ❤️

[@thedontpanic]

The story of Omori is 1000% worth getting through any gripes you may have with the combat. Can't recommend finishing it enough.

[@DeepMoon45]

Adding to the recommendations pile, Shin Megami Tensei Is my absolute favourite thing to exist. I really hope you enjoy them when you have the chance to try them out :)

[@flintlocke1344]

Funny, I dropped Omori because even though I enjoyed the combat, the story really wasn’t gripping me.

[@skeletonwar4445]

@@flintlocke1344 Same for me. The story was really boring to me. Incredibly generic depressive plot stuff.

[@obbyg4ming905]

@@skeletonwar4445 sorry, but could I ask you to point out what's generic in it? OMORI is really just one of the few psychological horrors games i know, so i don't really have any reference or basis to use

[@Moo_Cactus]

pokemon mystery dungeon explorers of sky is probably my favorite turn-based RPG of all time, because everything is limited. Your moves have limited uses, hunger prevents you from dawdling around for too long, but you also want to be spending enough time on each floor finding max elixirs and apples so your future floors aren't stunted by your decision to take an early staircase several floors before. You still have the type advantage chart, but now your moves also have varying ranges, like how thundershock only hits what's in front of the user, but thunderbolt can hit in a 3x3 box centered around the user, and discharge can hit the entire flippin room of enemies. But because PP actually matters now unless you have a real stockpile of max elixirs, there's real value in having multiple moves of the same type. And even with a ton of max elixirs, using them too liberally can be incredibly punishing. Furthermore, combat is made more tense both by overwhelming the player with boss durability, and with the plethora of enemies on the screen at any given moment- looking at you, monster houses! The game puts you in enough spots that you have to make real decisions in and out of combat with what items you use, hold, or otherwise value bringing into and out of each dungeon, which can mean you have to sacrifice items you valued bringing in without using them to get better loot out. The music is phenomenal, and it all came together to make me feel immersed into the world, something that other turn-based games fail to replicate for me. I'm genuinely sad you didn't touch on it, but I do also understand it isn't everyone's cup of tea, and maybe you just hadn't played it. But I absolutely love it to death, and I can't recommend it enough, because everything about it is so well done, in my opinion.

[@marcodipietro813]

counterpoint: rollout is stupid

[@dazcarrr]

generally the mystery dungeons games are all really cool, although multi hit moves are ridiculously OP and *will* almost one shot you most of the time

[@coffeeman5395]

I was raised on turn-based RPGs, while my friends were talking about playing GTA or the new cod I was playing Chrono trigger on my ds. they called it boring but I always got hype when I hit all the enemies in one attack and none of you will ever understand my excitement

[@itsjohfy]

I can lol

[@TheBrazilRules]

What do you mean "All of you"?

[@MsTatakai]

CT is considered a classic now? Because he didn't mentioned it =/

[@TheBrazilRules]

@@MsTatakai Are you asking if the game created by combining the minds behind Final Fantasy AND Dragon Quest is a classic?

[@MsTatakai]

@@TheBrazilRules and dragon ball artist... yeah because he forgot to mention the best ATB game ever made... Chrono trigger

[@Weird_One_]

Mother 3 has a rhythm mechanic when you use the basic attacks, psi and duster’s thief tools have their own short animations, and trying to frantically rush through menus for a life up move while your party member is slowly dying, and then just frantically doing whatever you can with everyone else, really engages you with what is going on and adds a ton to the basic gameplay.

[@jedwell9531]

Just want to say how much I appreciate that you put every bit of music used in the video in the description, and in order too. Makes it super easy to find some of the bangers that come up during the video 👍

[@TheBlackGunslinger]

One of the most memorable games in my childhood was Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones. I absolutely loved that game and it still to this day is a classic 'pick it up and have a nostalgia run' kind of thing. Exposing ones self to new games and genres, much like anything in life, is frustrating. It's all about how you tackle the problem. That being said, Selena can jump off a cliff and die because her Lightning Tome crit and killed Ewan

[@rubycrystals3422]

Yes! I loved the Sacred Stones, I had that as one of those Certificate GBA games you'd get for buying the DS soon after it was released. It was a game that started easy, and depending what you did next, could get very difficult, or fairly mediocre. Plus, the "Powerful Foe" theme has me grooving all day long, it's really good. And while FE7 is likely my favorite from that era, that game can still be loads of fun to pick up.

[@BeantheWiz]

I sadly had the exact opposite experience with Sacred Stones in particular, where i rarely had less fun with a game before. Played it as a kid and it just didn't click with me, and coming back to it years later it still doesn't. I really tried to like it, but i just couldn't somehow.

[@balsamon69]

Wanna play Thracia 776? :trollface:

[@BeantheWiz]

@@balsamon69 I'm good :)

[@balsamon69]

@@BeantheWiz It's not too bad Ha ha, just kidding Your first playthrough will be painful. It's actually my favourite FE game, but man Was my first run rough, seriously if you wanna play it, look up a guide or a walkthrough, or maybe both, that game's not messing around

[@RichardParker84188]

I still remember when FF7R came out and people were like "finally fast combat instead of boring turn based". The rage i felt that day

[@andrew-rn9ui]

Final fantasy was always meant evolve to that style of gameplay,, If final fantasy 17 takes all the best parts of 15 and 16 and have ai as good as rdr2 had , it will probably be the greatest game ever It's not my fault you haven't grown or changed as a person since high-school 😂

[@andrew-rn9ui]

​@@anthonychalk7026because some people grow up and change 😂 Not everyone has stayed the same exact person with the same exact interests playing Pokémon and yugioh for the last 20 years 😂 But yall hipsters think personal growth isn't cool cause it's mainstream 😂

[@babblejacks2818]

You know what's ironic though about FF7R. It's basically still the atb system just now you can move your character around. The combats still focused on party HP and MP management, boss strategys, Element weaknesses, and everything the classic atb system was just now in real time and positioning is required. You still wait for your atb to fill up then you do your move just like the original.

[@sharplosion1]

You briefly mentioned Pokemon, SMT and Ni No Kuni (thank for the latter btw, very underrated). I think another important aspect of JRPGs can partciularly be highlight in the Monster Collection genre: Team Building. Other JRPGs obviously have team building too, but more often than not it's usually with a set roster of characters, and only occasionally do the games have generic enough characters for things like jobs/classes to changed on the fly. With the Monster Collection genre, team building gets pushed into the forefront. Not only is there a desire to use creatures that you like, but many of these games allow for customization on the individual level, changing around moves of a single monster to kit them out for what you need. Plus games like SMT and Dragon Quest Monsters allow for inheriting the skills of two other monsters than have been combined together into something new, broadening the horizons by allowing monsters to gain abilities they wouldn't be able to otherwise. Of course this all has to be paid off with an engaging combat system on it's own, but the customization can help make an otherwise less impressive combat system more fun just by getting to flex what you have worked hard to build. On a completely different note, Live-a-Live is a great example of a very unique JRPG. From it's combat to the way it tells it's story. I hope many more people get to enjoy it with the remake coming out soon.

[@kyledavidson6635]

A game that I’ve recently got into that exemplifies this are the Digimon Cyber Sleuth games. You have a wide variety of Digimon to pick from and as you encounter more you get more options to start from, evolve into, and degenerate down into. And with the wide options of evolution paths, what you start with can change completely or you can casually make a detour to one or two completely different lines to learn new moves and then go back to the main line you are wanting. Because you are constantly changing up your team all the time between levels of evolution and evolution lines, it feels fresh and allows you some control in the design of your team.

[@tatsuyasuou3368]

Persona Q2 is probably my favorite rpg experience of recent memory. Making a persona so I could 3 shot the final boss with mitsuru was the greatest rush I’ve ever felt.

[@ShadowOfMassDestruction]

That's Persona in general for me, really dang satisfying

[@lillieampurra]

that's how i got introduced to the etrian odyssey series... my life is different now

[@DarklingReborn]

A song I really love for its storytelling is zant’s battle theme (specifically the blizzeta part) from twilight princess, it really helps sell the idea of “someone who’s gone completely mad with power”

[@DarklingReborn]

Link for the part of the song I’m talking about: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGTNZnt5jrGtrKs

[@nudrattashfia4060]

​@@DarklingReborn Pun Intended?

[@eclecticspaghetti]

I was all set to comment about Darkest Dungeon, and then you went ahead and mentioned it in the video itself. Damn you, yakko, there you go having *good taste* again. Come on, man. (That said please keep an eye on the sequel, it’s in early access right now but I personally think it has a lot over the original even now.)

[@joelruvalcaba6282]

Like how they made the man at arms an even bigger giga chad that refuses to die. You cant full party riposte cheese anymore but man that taunt with shield on riposte is busted. Add the trinket that has a chance to give a turn when hit and boom you have the wall. Rank three maa telling everyone and their agency to get bent

[@facebookuser1653]

And I think it is worth mentioning that the combat is way better

[@13KuriMaster]

That whole "The stories are convoluted" thing isn't even a problem with the turn based system as a mechanic... I mean, to pull things to an extreme, which has a more convoluted story to it? The Turn-based pokemon games? Or the action-oriented Kingdom Hearts series? The "fighting the same enemies" thing is in a similar boat... though I don't have quite as strong of an example as what I did for the stories deal.

[@orangetabby7122]

A lot of the criticisms I saw for Turn based games made me go "Isn't that a criticism for most genres?" Convoluted stories are not bound to Turn based games Grinding is in a lot of different genres, not just turn based games. Games like Breath of the Wild or BTD6 (at least, at the beginning) come to mind. Complicated mechanics? Try Dwarf Fortress. Roguelikes are an entire genre built around losing hours of progress TL;DR: stop criticizing big tiddy anime grilfriend simulator. >:(

[@doofs]

DUDE how can turn-based combat be outdated when you got _Toontown???_ bangin' soundtrack (done by the MGR composer) deep story (strong anti-capitalist metaphors) passionate fanbase (20 years old and still going strong) only *REAL ONES* blast cog building in the car

[@kernium]

WAIT WHAT!? TOONTOWN WAS COMPOSED BY WHO!?!?

[@epicgamergirl453]

This but unironically, I adore Toontown so much

[@kerbonaut2059]

@@kernium oh great, the meme's come full circle. First we got MGR vids talking about the Toontown composer, now we got Toontown players talking about the MGR composer.

[@kernium]

@@kerbonaut2059 How the turn tables!

[@PäncakesthePOB]

A battle system I love is the one from Grandia. It's a bit similar to the active time battle system from FF but here everyone (including the ennemies) are on the same progress bar and so you have to choose your actions based on who to hit to prevent them from attacking, to pay attention if your attack will be fast enough to hit before the ennemy will act, or since the battles takes place in a field move your characters away from an aoe attack. If played well sometimes you can even prevent the ennemy from attacking by cancelling repeatingly their actions.

[@iamLI3]

CANCEL _____________________________

[@AlphaGod990]

Debating on how "outdated" turn-based rpgs are compared to action rpgs is the same as open world games vs linear games. It's really just it's own genre, not every game has to be like that, it's really up to bothe devs and the player.

[@realkingofantarctica]

I was actually just thinking about this topic. As a life-long RPG fan, I have felt both the good and the bad. While dynamic, real-time combat where you can't be sure what to expect next, much like Discord group chats, is certainly something I prefer more often than not, I think turn-based combat is mainly stunted because of a lack of innovation. Aside from bland anime artstyles with stupid plots, people just don't gravitate to these games like many others because some developers are just content with putting out a sub-par combat system with little identity to appeal to already niche audiences, which aren't growing *because* of a lack of innovation. I make this analogy all the time, but I think RPG's are similar to first-person shooters. So many of them are soulless and lack an incentive to play which makes them divisive. But then, when you get a good one that tries something new like Undertale and Persona to FPS' Doom Eternal and Overkill, that's when people can take a glance and notice it's more than just the genre it says on the Steam page. You feel me?

[@mister_raindr0p]

Eh is also because some poeple dont care to go deeper, same with the developers, like for example look at pokemon, even if it doesn't innovate the overall formula how many shit can be done with it is WILD, like the strats are so varied that even the weaker units can shine a lot. Ex: pachirisu, purrloin with assist and such Also sometimes they are just the easiest vehicle to tell a story, and gate it with grinding, at least thankfully since persona 5 devs have catched up on how to make grind less tedious and it shows with pokemon arceus for example with it fast go in go out in combat

[@yakkocmn]

Yeah, I totally understand that - it can often feel like there's a lot of similarity and fodder to sift through to find the gems, but that can be true of many other genres like you mentioned. I feel like I could've expanded on my ideas in this video a bit more than I did (the framing was mostly just a loose structure to talk about cool games, and I admit that the overall arguments were on the weaker side), but at the very core I think I just wanted to say it's strange that turn-based combat - the fundamental, base idea of selecting moves through menus and taking turns - is what gets considered outdated. There are a lot of turn-based games, but I personally think there are a lot of GOOD turn-based games. It's not like this happens all the time, as many people understand that it's grinding, random encounters, complicated plots, etc, but it just gets boiled down and generalized, which dissuades people from checking out most turn-based RPGs as they became synonymous with old-school design choices that aren't as prevalent as they once were.

[@lonelyshpee7873]

When you were talking about FPS games and mentioned "Overkill", did you mean Ultrakill or Turbo Overkill? I'll admit I've called Ultrakill "Overkill" more than once myself...

[@realkingofantarctica]

@@lonelyshpee7873 My bad, yep. I make that mistake too often.

[@armandostockvideos8386]

It's kinda funny cuz that's what turne-based rpg fans say about action-rpg games XD Anyway, I think that happens to literally every genre.(Beat em up, platformers, metroidvania, hack&slash, horror games, ect)

[@Taizen_Chisou]

A perfect thing to talk about in this video would've been the brief foray of the Atelier series into a hybrid real-time/turn based system with its Ryza entries, and subsequent relapse into turn-based gameplay with its latest installment, Atelier Sophie 2. These games __are__ lighter on the overarching narrative generally and do mostly exist to be cute character comfort food but damn if they don't have some of the best soundtracks in the entire genre. Any one of the titles will likely take 30 minutes to 2 hours to really get going but once you get into it, you REALLY GET INTO IT also. Some of the older titles even feature the "meta" turn-based strategy that exists in Persona by giving you a limited amount of in-game time to complete critical objectives, as well. Please consider checking them out for future videos, these games have some of my favorite wrinkles on turn-based combat systems!

[@theot2141]

I for one was glad to see they went back to turnbased in Sophie2. Ryza1 and a lesser extent BlueRefTie frustrate me that I can't keep track of/enjoy the animations of everyone on field.

[@MistyKathrine]

I only played the Play Station 2 titles of that series but I can vouch for the music. Atelier Iris 2's OST is amazing. They also had a couple of spin off games made by the same studio called Ar Tonelico: Melody of Elemia and Ar Tonelico 2: Melody of Metafalica which both have amazing soundtracks with dozens of original vocal tracks; I actually think Ar Tonelico 2 has the greatest video game sound track of all time, seriously just look up the music sometime, it's truly a work of art.

[@estebanhamilton942]

Love to see it ❤️ 1. Darkest dungeon getting it's rightful love, that position and stress system REALLY can leave your typical turn based combat flummoxed. 2. Final Fantasy Crisis Core for the PSP walked so FF7 Remake could Run 💪😩 3. The whole Patapon series is also an amazing take on real time turn based combat cuz you have to use their turns through rhythm based commands, which are optimized by enemies projecti g their movement

[@Endersoul-tx1of]

Man, Patapon. The memories are rushing back in my head.

[@BMXR0]

The soundtrack is also a bop

[@nyahnyahson523]

Final Fantasy 7 Crisis Core Reunion, otherwise known as FFVIICC:R, ran because of Final Fantasy 7 Remake, known as FFVII:R, ran because of Crisis Core PSP jogged because FFVII walked.

[@philiahyaaaay]

Library of Ruina will forever have my favorite turn based combat system, the battles are just so satisfying to play out and when its paired with the music that evolves as the emotion levels rise and the in game "tension" increasing it creates an incredible experience. plus it has one of my favorite stories of all time and it's like 140 hours long or something so you definitely get your fair share of combat

[@winslycan1309]

Library of Ruina is a statement that turn based RPG could be innovated, but publishers just want them to be low-cost and made for casual gamer.

[@gaiko804]

Library of Ruina mention let's gooooo

[@littlefunk4194]

Once again, a banger you hit out of the park. I know the youtube algorithm really rewards you for uploading videos day in and day out, but I would honestly have it any other way when it comes to your videos. I am incredibly willing to wait for every one of your amazing videos. This one in particular made me appreciate the turn-based combats that I dropped or never tried, and now I think I’ll give them a shot! You really do open up my eyes to some games I often turn a blind eye to, so thank you.

[@CallumDark]

Many people mentioned Etrian Odyssey so I'll just add and say yeah, that's good too. Building a party to fuction together as a whole feels great. Combat compliments it really well when you see your well oiled machine of a team just working. Exploring a labyrinth 1st person grid based exploration feels like the extra layer of dungeon RPGs in general. The Dungeon is as much apart of the RPG gameplay as the combat. EO's extra wrinkle on making the dungeon exploring engaging is map drawing. Plus Yuzo Koshiro does not know how to make a bad track and really loves his syntherisers. SaGa Scarlet Grace probably has my favourite turn based combat. I'm not sure I could describe it in a way to do it justice, but for a game with very limited enemy pools it some how makes fights engaging puzzles each time. There's a timeline you see people's action order for that turn, but if you kill an enemy (or a party member is killed) and join up two groups, the two groups that join then do an attack. So this is fun when you kill an enemy by mistake and they were in the middle of a group of 3 so they join together and then cause an attack to hit you. It really is a combat system you have to see or play for yourself, I can't explain it good at all.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

SaGa Scarlet Grace battle system is truly amazing The Phoenix Battle is probably one of my favorite Boss Battle of all time, dur to how it turns the battle system on its head. And it works!

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

People say "2d platforms are outdated" before New Super Mario Show up breaking sells records. People say stuff because people have mouths to talk.

[@jeromysnepvangers4189]

📠

[@0isthe1]

In the words of Qui-gon, "The ability to speak, does not make you intelligent."

[@Player-jh4ko]

Not necessarily true lmao. Infact NSMB sub-series is KNOWN for being outdated, repetitive, and samey ALL AT ONCE. The only reason as to why the games sold so good is because it's Nintendo, everything sells for them.

[@Trails3rdFanboy]

​@@Player-jh4ko You know what else is known? Your inability to appreciate what a good game is LMAO

[@Player-jh4ko]

@@Trails3rdFanboy That satement is not even CLOSE to being true in the slightest. A game series that heavily reuses elements and barley bringing anything new to the table isn't what I call a "Good Game" LMAO.

[@Usaei]

I really love the Trails (or Kiseki) series because it blends everything together. Strategy, satisfying combat, amazing music, genuinely good characters, interesting stories and a world that feels alive. The Trails series isn’t just a JRPG series, it’s sorta like the MCU or One Piece. Each game building upon the other, and it’s led to some amazing callbacks and “holy shit” moments because of it. Trails isn’t for everyone, but everyone should at least try it out once.

[@user-pds3lmcas4]

I'm happy I'm not the only one to feel this way about this series

[@snailthelostcow63]

Oh God this series. I remember everything suddenly makes sense when I always wondered why the hell Joshua is so stacked with broken moves after the huge reveal and made you realize Estelle is not the only one who rely on Joshua when I begin starting the 2nd part. It's an amazing way to feel you're growing together with the main character and by the end of 2nd part it feels like I'm an actual A-Rank Bracer

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

It's 6 70 hours games at this point so far in English (8/9 soon enough), so getting into it now is gonna be long, especially since you really can't rush it (the best part is legitimately talking to every NPCs after every major events.) But the battle system is truly great, yeah!

[@colbyboucher6391]

God, I got the first game on Steam and I'm worried I kinda just don't have time for it. Or, rather, there's so many other games I could be playing. When I play it I feel half-obligated to speak to literally everyone whenever possible because goddamn, you can speak to EVERYONE, and it makes the intro drag on to an insane degree. It feels like an MMO-sized commitment. Which is a shame, because it really does come across like an underrated masterpiece, even in tho.e first few hours. The sort of thing that's actually way better than most competition, but most people are just not stuck in enough to know about it, or have the patience to actually get through it.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

@@colbyboucher6391 Trails in the Sky, right? That one is actually a giant prologue to the second game composed mostly of walking around and talking to other people. So then, you'll be well familiarized with this world once you played the second game (and you probably will, if you reach the end. But don't think you'll have to finish it in one go. Playing until you reach the next place and then dropping it for a few months may be the best way not being burned out. But if it's too much of a commitment, I get it. It's an amazing experience, but it asks a lot from you, and it gets worse as the serie progress.

[@Burntcookies1]

I'm totally with you about liking turn-based games because they're more laid-back. I'm oftentimes not trying to go shrimp mode (or hurt my hands more than they already are) playing high intensity games. Plus, turn-based games reward strategy primarily, which is something I feel a lot more confident in than my reflexes or muscle memory. I think it's less that the genre's outdated, and more that it appeals to a different playstyle. As far as quality goes.. well, it's like any other genre of games. There's good, there's bad, and there's boring.

[@Tripledeluxer]

Surprised mother 3 didnt come up in interactivity. The rythm keeping during attacks for little bits of damage is one of my favorite ways of making you feel skilled, even when its like no damage at all, and i havent seen anything like it since

[@DelArcadia]

Personally, I've never known how to categorize them, but my personal favorite games, Megaman Battle Network and Megaman Starforce have been some of my favorite examples of Turn based/Real Time RPGs I've ever played.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Playing through Battle Network 2 with grinding cheats has really changed my perspective on the series. It goes from an almost purely reaction-dependent game to one where the order you select chips and use them is like the strategy required of a turn-based game. It feels so nice to be able to beat a V3 boss underleveled because I learned what timing to use a Dash Attack vs Long Sword vs Zap Ring + Double Needle to maximize damage and minimize risk.

[@DelArcadia]

@@haruhirogrimgar6047 That's actually why I like the PA Systems and some of the element Chips Characteristics so you prioritize your Chips and how to use them. Like how Wood Chips usually don't cause Iframes allowing for Follow Ups

[@sayer4148]

The Mega Man RPG series are more action-based than turn-based. The only turn-based Mega Man RPG I know is X Command Mission.

[@bgtv5909]

I absolutely LOVE that Toontown got multiple nods in this video, one of my all time favorite games!

[@justinrohman3751]

Mother 3's turn based combat kinda goes crazy. Rhythm game with the rolling health system feels super unique. Kept me way more interested in the combat than I expected.

[@batti591]

Also having the extra hits timed with the music and then having the final boss's theme be a an amelodic cacophony is a special kind of trolling.

[@adroitws1367]

what is rolling health system

[@hdckighfkvhvgmk]

@@adroitws1367 when you take a hit/heal your health slowly scrolls down or up to the new number that it should be rather than doing it instantaneously. This means that even if your health should be 0, if you had 500 health before the hit it'll take a while to get down to 0 and give you some time to heal yourself.

[@adroitws1367]

@@hdckighfkvhvgmk oh i see, thanks

[@misirtere9836]

@@batti591 they made you time hits to THIS, funniest damn thing i've ever seen kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIDHfGermJuhi8U

[@vulth9907]

The fact i had chills when i started hearing the Cynthia battle theme just proves the point

[@lewis9s]

Bravely Default does a really cool thing with it’s turn based combat where you can use turns as a resource, similar to Octopath but you can go into a turn deficit in a last ditch effort to wipe out all your foes before they can lay a finger on you. Not to mention my favourite part of the game, special attacks which play the theme of the character who just used it and will temporarily make the party stronger until the music stops, but you can chain these special attacks together to keep your buffs for more turns which means you have to act fast if you want to make the most of your specials. This last part is a music spoiler but if you don’t care much about that read on if you like. Those specials I just mention all combine themselves in the final boss theme once your on the final stretch of it’s health bar followed by the leitmotif of the main theme. Everytime I think about it, I literally get chills. Best Videogame OST and maybe even best turn based JRPG in my opinion.

[@Ekrotus]

Not sure if you remember me from commenting on your last video mister yakko, but I gotta say this was exactly what I was looking forward to. Great positivity, and you even avoided bullying yourself for mentioning Persona/Undertale/etc haha. Very good stuff, really liked the intro and jokes in this one.

[@HelixSquid]

One turn-based game that I liked alot was Sweet Home on the Famicom. The game is a Horror-RPG and has a very simple turn-based battle system, but what made it interesting was two mechanics. One that allowed you to split your team of 5 into two separate teams. The game had tons of puzzles in it, some requiring the party to separate, and each party member had a specific special item that could be used to solve some of them. However, the second mechanic was permadeath, when a team member dies they're gone for good. Losing a team member meant someone else had to carry their important item, and you would get a different ending. I just found that really cool, as it made you play more cautiously through the game.

[@Invisibool]

1:15 Ironic, this is exactly how I've felt about pretty much every Action RPG I've ever played and why I don't play them much, if at all, anymore

[@known_questionmark]

please help why is the starting bit is so addicting to replay the "express opinion (stupid)" poses are so great

[@thomasffrench3639]

I think that a big reason why it is so divisive is that unlike Japan the west's main big hits in the NES days were mostly action based games, and by the time we got into RPGs, the stories were the best on the market, so people played RPGs because of story over gameplay. So we don't have turn based as ingrained into our collective understanding of video games, and it doesn't help that the biggest turn-based RPG in the west: Pokémon doesn't really use it in the most optimal way. Also, how can you mention story through gameplay without mentioning Final Fantasy IV?

[@CinnamonBunBacon]

Great video! One RPG I will always love is Eternal Sonata, with the music theming and unique mechanics. It has free movement, but on a timer, and there is the mechanic of what moves you can access changing depending on whether or not you are in shade or sunlight. it also had a Character who could take pictures that you could sell for money, with the pictures increasing in value with how good they are. It's a shame that you can only play it on xbox 360, ps3, or playstation now.

[@PrivateCTO]

This is the point where I would tell Yakko to go play the Trails series, but let's face it, who REALLY wants to play an JRPG series where every NPC has constantly updated dialogue leading to amazing world building, an interconnected and underlying story passing through all the games, and some of the most emotionally provoking music you can hear. I know Yakko wouldn't, thats for sure!

[@TheActualAnthonino]

I've had the idea of a music-based RPG for the longest time. Depending on what enemies you encounter, you get special piece of music for that fight, and have to adapt quickly to the situation or else you get your shit kicked it. Best comparison I can think of is a mix between OFF and The Desolate Hope, with real-time battles but limited by action points and what moves you can do, along with a cooldown between actions. It's always just been a tick in the head, wanna make a POC demo someday, if not just to show off the characters I've made for it. One day, maybe. Who knows?

[@DPS-2004]

You might like Patapon, it's kinda similar in concept

[@dantpointy436]

You might enjoy Mother 3 since it has a rhythm mechanic where you need to hit your attacks on beat for every fight

[@snailthelostcow63]

Well, it's not something that you would want but try looking for Ar Tonelico 2

[@werh227]

Isn't there a music based RPG that has a rhythm you have to follow for the entire game? Forgot the title though, but it was in OutsideXbox/Xtra's video about violent video game shopkeeps

[@onimaxblade8988]

This reminds me of EverHood more than anything, though that game doesn't really have RPG customization.

[@2006PoyotaKirbolla]

I love rpgs my favourite game of all time is Persona 5 Royal. It always annoys me when people say these systems are outdated. And usually the person saying it is playing the most generic games ever (imo). The feeling of learning the battle system and the world is so good and getting stronger is super rewarding. Plus in Persona 5 some of the bosses feel like I’m fighting a Zelda boss they have that stress. So In my opinion the Turn based rpg genre is one of the simplest to enjoy as long as you pick the right games.

[@explodedglue5509]

The grandia series combat system is great example of how to make the combat interactive while still keeping turn-based and I like it that way

[@iamLI3]

YESSSSSS MY LOVE♥.......

[@parchmentengineer8169]

One game I didn't see mentioned here is Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling. It's a Paper-Mario inspired game, but it changes and improves upon that formula in a bunch of very clever ways. For example, instead of Mario and one partner, you control a team of 3 explorers through the whole game, and you have to manage their positioning and unique skills. Also, the music is some of the absolute best I've seen in any video game and I could listen to most of the boss themes for hours.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I gotta say, Bug fables was the only turn based rpg I ever played(aside from angry birds epic, I guess), and the combat got really tiring towards the end of the game. I continued playing the whole way mostly for the plot, characters and world.

[@jexusdomel5194]

I feel like one of my biggest problems with jrpgs, a genre I used to love but has soured imo is that it takes forever for the game to get interesting gameplay wise. Final fantasy 7 (the original) is a good example, the materia system is neat, but it takes about a third of the game to really get going, they assume I'll love just using magic and attacking by itself? FF 10 is better because it immediately puts an obvious strategy in front of the player, showing certain characters despatch enemies better, and you need to switch them accordingly, and only develops from then on. There's no unnecessary waiting, making so I wanna keep playing not just for the story. I could have also used persona for this example, but I think the video has used it enough lol (won't blame it, it do be fire)

[@liammcnicholas918]

The materia system also makes each playthrough different from the last.

[@onimaxblade8988]

FFX has a boring rock paper system though where you can just switch in characters for free to one-shot the limited enemy-type pool. In general though, I agree, a lot of older games (including FFVII partly) take a while to ramp up. I think FFVII does well having interesting fights though. Like Air Buster countering people who attack it from behind.

[@Drstrange3000]

I feel this too. I'm playing Tales of Arise and I'm hoping it keeps picking up the pace. So far, it seems to move along faster than Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Damn, that game was slow to really get into.

[@TNinja0]

I'm just sitting here thinking that we now have more games than we can complete in three lifetimes, and somehow we feel the need to complain about videogames using "Outdated" mechanics, instead of just. Go along and enjoy the genre that fits what we're looking for.

[@klong977]

Really good video and you touched on a lot of things I like about RPGs. Other things I like was how Bravely Default let you change the battle frequency, so you could run back to an inn, heal, and return to a boss without any or reduced encounters. And the Final Fantasy 12: The Zodiac Age remaster had a x2 and x4 turbo option. Mother 3 had a really nice battle system where you could tap A to the beat to get up to 16 hits. It almost became a rhythm game. I'll admit I kinda like the system of Paper Mario: Sticker Star with the resource management. But no exp made battles worthless.

[@extra4542]

i dont see how it can be seen as outdated when it’s just a different genre. action and turn based exist, it makes no sense why people think that action can be a replacement for turn based

[@Nennecatgirl]

Unironically one of my favorite turn base RPGs is Steven Universe Save the light. It's not perfect by any means due to it's lack of polish and many glitches but it's much better than some recent Paper Marios and has a bunch of charm in the voice acting and animations. The combat system is extremely fun and refreshing as there are no turns just move stamina and character synergy with support characters like Greg and Steven and Fusions with the gems.

[@Ligytdr]

Very true. That game had a nice battle system

[@zaneheaston8254]

Granted, it’s not that hard to be better than the Post-Sticker Star Paper Mario games

[@KatelynTea]

I feel like a really good example of good vs bad menuing is the ps1 vs PSP version of Persona 2 Innocent Sin The ps1 version's menus while looking a bit boring feel responsive the feeling that you have full control of how fast you can get through the menu which is nice when you're able to speed through them in 5 seconds. The PSP version's menus are slow, sluggish and have an unskippable delay between pressing a button and you getting to menu you want to be in making it feel tedious just to use an item or enable the auto battle and because it's a piss easy game it feels really unrewarding and a waste of effort on your part. Tldr: play the ps1 version of Persona 2 it's better.

[@jeremyabbott4537]

yeah but the PSP version has Lotus Juice

[@majorghoul9017]

Turn Based Combat was at its best for me in Hylics 2. Simple and easily understood stats, gorgeous graphics, a relaxing vibe that keeps your head clear and the best use of debuffs I've ever seen in an rpg. Everybody go play Hylics 2 now.

[@joshuabradford8206]

To be fair audio balancing is also important. There are games with real-time action where are the audio balancing is good and you can actually hear what is going on during the fight even in the middle of combat. Tales of xillia for example. There are plenty of conversations and things that happened during the fight especially during the beginning of the fights for important fights. It really helps flush out the characters and story. It adds to the fight instead of detracts from it. A lot of the points that you made could be done in real time combat too with it also being more interactive

[@Swablumaster]

The first two Dragon Quests are really good! I was surprised by how much fun they are, as an elder gen z. I played the version that's on Switch - based on what my friend who played it back in the NES days said, I think they turned the grind way down. I was always a pretty casual RPG fan, and I randomly decided to play DQ1 about a year ago. I beat it within 24 hours and absolutely loved it. There are definitely much more interesting games and battle systems, but it's the perfect foundation for everything else. I've been playing at least one rpg at any given time ever since. 1 is a bit more personally important to me, but 2 is the perfect first layer on top of the foundation. It was one of the first party-based jrpgs, and it's cool to see what's basically THE prototype for the holy trinity of dps, tank, and mage. I hear 3 is the best of the original trilogy, but I'm waiting for the HD-2D remake.

[@superserenajin]

I could talk about DQ all day. One of my favourite moments in video games is in DQ2 when you first get the boat and you're sailing right and come across the continent from the first game! I had no idea that was coming and even though it's 35 years old I still audibly said "holy shit" lmao 3 is very good, the HD-2D remake looks so fun, it can't come soon enough

[@thomasffrench3639]

I think that the HD-2D loses a lot of its charm for Dragon Quest III so I’m playing the ones on the Switch instead. Although if they have the first two with the remake, then I’ll probably get it.

[@javi7636]

Personally, turn-based systems really struggle to keep my attention for a whole game, but everything you said about the music is spot on. I stopped playing Pokemon, but I don't regret playing Sword and Shield literally just because of that gym leader battle theme. And the best part is that I can keep enjoying that aspect of games after the fact by finding covers and remixes of those tracks.

[@oneish7454]

Have you tried the Mario and Luigi series? in those you actually have to press buttons to execute the commands. It keeps battles from becoming stale and keep you engaged

[@arieldominguez2905]

I feel the Pokémon battle system doesn't evolve trough the game and it feels very stale, there's games where the early battles and the endgame have a completely different feel, that doesn't happen in Pokémon

[@raleo7466]

Pokemon games often become a "hit A repeatedly" halfway through the game. I would encourage you to try a different kind of turn based combat game with a combat system that evolves more. Persona games have, as the video said, a very fluid combat system due to the demon fusion system. Final fantasy V, Octopath Traveler and Bravely default have the job system, which encourages you to try different classes to get passive bonuses. Xenoblade 2 had a weird gatcha system for party members which made you swap character a lot, etc. In my opinion, Pokemon games are a bad gateway into turn based combat games due to the lack of challenge

[@logiclunacy606]

The problem with pokemon is that not only is it grindy but your only pressing motivation is to beat the next gym, the story is never interesting because they don't try with it. Also there isn't much sense of needing to adapt in combat like what a lot other jrpgs encourage. Never finished a pokemon game myself and I love turn based rpgs.

[@clarehidalgo]

Try Digimon Cyber Sleuth

[@litapd311]

one of my favorite turn based games that doesn't get considered as much is XCOM! it has a permadeath system, but unlike fire emblem you can still advance in ways besides the characters, and you can replace them so it doesn't sting as much. but it still stings when you name units after friends and they die. it's also very easy to menu, and there's some interactivity in aiming certain explosives/seeing the sightlines from your units as you switch targets

[@skeletonwar4445]

And it'll also fuck you over via bad rng and delete your entire squad with a single "haha funny ambush" lmao. Thanks xcom. You're a great game. Fuck you.

[@octosalias5785]

There are some great one-off RPG combat systems I would still love to see updated. Something like Legend of Dragoon and Xenogears combo systems.

[@talonhowe8131]

I still think Xenogears would be great in that 2.5D engine Square's been using lately. If only they could remember they have all the rights to it.

[@tinydragon5447]

18:32 actually made me jump how dare you activate my fight or flight response

[@goukagrimm8773]

I think Lost Odyssey is one that deserves a mention. Melee attacks have a timed button press to allow you to deal more or less damage based on how well you timed the button press, character turns are affected not only by speed but also the speed of their actions causing some things to take so long that they come out the next turn and getting attacked can cause it to slow down (spells mostly), AND you have positioning where your front line creates the equivalent of a shield for the back line that reduces damage they take until it is depleted which the enemies can also do. The positioning of your characters in the front and back line can also be changed in battle. The music is also incredible.

[@ferociousmaliciousghost]

4:09 This might be the only way that the mic works properly.

[@ThatSpecificIndividual]

Its not really an RPG but Xcom2 is my favourite example of a game with turn based combat. Especially on PC because mods expand your capabilities and the difficulty game and is some of the best experiences i ever had in gaming. A way on making turn based games interesting is to have it be more about strategy. Instead of a standing around like in traditional turn based games, you need to stick to cover to avoid getting killed. You have to plan ahead.

[@mirageowl]

Fire Emblem is basically JRPG version of XCOM

[@shiina4826]

I really think the main problem imo for turn based combat is not really properly supplemented with the proper options and strategy, sometimes it gets to a point where you simply use one option because its either the best for everything or the game doesnt really give you a ton to begin with, its this reason I like Octopath and DQ11 because there was so many random things to experiment with and skills for more niche situations.

[@petergilveet6666]

This is not turn-based combat fault, it's just bad game design. It's like saying that a fighting game is bad because you're just smashing buttons to punch, so it shouldn't be a fighting game anymore.

[@gbzld]

I still wanna shoutout games like DMC that despite being an action game, still uses vocal themes that go super hard and in a masterful way.

[@Stachebro12]

A really great game I’ve been playing recently is baten kaitos. It’s fairly niche but it ticks most of the things you mentioned in the video while also being fairly unique as far as rpgs I’ve played. I don’t think I could do it justice in just this comment, but, it uses deck building mechanics, but is still definitely a jrpg (not a card game) and gives you time to plan your moves whilst also allowing you to gain an advantage by thinking and reacting fast enough. The way your hand is shuffled every battle means you don’t just win by pressing a singe button and the music is kick ass. I’d recommend checking it out.

[@3up3rn0va]

I love jrpgs! They're so much fun, and the stories are the best part. I've put sooo many hours into persona games, yakuza, pokemon, and other games that any time I play an action rpg, or an fps. They feel so weird. I don't like spamming random buttons or being hot and sweaty in fighting or fps games. I just like to chill out and roam around and fight some monsters. And fight occasional bosses. The stories and the music are the icing on the cake.

[@moosesues8887]

Gah dahm

[@t-vann48]

One of my favorite game series of all time is the Legend of Heroes: Trails series, and while a huge part of that is the deep, complex lore and the both short and long term storytelling structure spanning over 12 games at this point, the turn based combat in these games is also great. Building your playable party is really interesting and fairly customizable, even within the base set roles the characters fulfill. There are definitely "optimal" builds but you can totally build outside of those and still see success. And the addition of the craft system on top of your standard attacks and magic adds an interesting dimension and a ton of variety to your party. Also you get a lot of playable characters throughout the game and I love that. The most recent game that was released in English had over 30 total playable characters and had 18 playable characters in the main party.

[@dinodamo9752]

Turn-Based games will make a big comeback once gamers get older. Our reaction won't be the same and taking a moment will be fell nice (and needed).

[@videakias3000]

I want to say that I am currently playing "I am setsuna", it has some of the flaws mentioned in the video, but I still like it a lot. the reviews on steam say that it does not give you something that you can't get from other jrpg's. I don't know how it compares to the others, but I still enjoy it a lot. I really wanted to relax and play a game with turned based combat instead of one of the many other action games I am playing.

[@markwallace8924]

Bravely Default is fun, and the soundtrack bangs. I hear it’s music in random KZbin videos for no reason. The gameplay focuses on having the defend option actually give you a benefit beyond reduced damage which is essentially an extra move for the future. You can also dip into the extra moves without having any stored to do a bunch of things in one turn but your defenceless until the turns come back naturally. It’s a good way to balance 4 characters with different abilities and the difficulty. You are able to crush grinding faster by dipping into saved turns but if you mess up you can get ko’d by a weak enemy.

[@JordanAdventure1]

Turn based combat i dont think its outdated, its a genre that may not be for everyone, but if you get hooked, oh boy it hooks hard. I heard awesome things about the trails series(trails of cold steel, trails in the sky,...) Its quite a long series, But considering how good nihom falcom games are and me being a fan of their work(specially the Ys saga) pretty sure are worth it, and holy hell the bops, theres a lot of orgasmic bops.

[@thedeepfriar745]

Fire emblem will never be dull to me because I find the whole strategy side of the combat to be very mentally satisfying. Unit placement and exploiting the enemy Ai just makes my brain so happy.

[@redmagusmorgan]

so glad to see a 13 sentinels mention! the combat might not be the star of that game compared to the story but i still had a blast with blowing up big Kaiju as for a recommendation, Trails in the Sky is a wonderful turn based game with a story and world that has been being built since 2005. the combat takes place on a grid with positioning, turn order, spell areas, cast times, and resource management galore. its wonderful. PLUS the main battle theme is a bop!

[@TenraiKenshin]

The turn-based system in Legend of Dragoon on PS1 is a great example of using tuned button presses to increase player engagement! Getting a new cinco and learning the correct timing of each button pues over multiple attempts was always so addicting to me!

[@zephirock3046]

My favorite game of all time is Skies of Arcadia, a turn based rpg from the dreamcast/gamecube. It uses a fairly unique (as far as I'm aware of) system where your party all draw from a shared SP meter that fills each round to use special moves and magic, so you have to manage when to use it and how much because you never know when you'll need to have some in reserve for a big heal. At specific level thresholds each character will contribute more SP each round which allows faster buildup for bigger moves as the game progresses. On top of that the boss battle theme is dynamic and will change based on your parties health levels vs the boss'. A feature I wish was FAR more common because nothing beats when you revive a fallen party member of hit a strong special move and hear the music begin to celebrate your impending victory.

[@Sammysapphira]

There is nothing wrong with "grinding" If you enjoy the game on a fundamental level, "grinding" is just playing the game more. People need a reason to play a game. It's extremely uncommon for people to play a game after they've maxed out all of their stats. This is the point where people say they get "bored," and yet, they refuse to admit it's because there's nothing to actively grind. Grind compliments good gameplay. You literally just get to play the game more and retain motivation.

[@Kyubee5136]

I’ve been saying that for years lol. There’s no difference in grinding a RPG and playing other genres. People have spent more time learning how to speedrun and competitively play fighting games than most people spend grinding RPGs. No one says anything bad about people doing that. It’s just a bias against RPGs.

[@fefega]

Nah bro, grinding is boring. Or rather, Turn-based RPGs are just boring. Take any Dark Souls game for example, a person can be good enough to tackle any challenge even without reaching the optimal level. I want the game to be skill based, not based on how much some numbers want to fuck me up.

[@insanitylock7202]

Baten Kaitos's turn based system gets REALLY interesting when the timers for cards start popping up after you level the character's class, and when the 'move stick to select a number' cards come up. It's also interesting to defend since that's more real time. Not a lot of people probably know it outside of it being the 'longest speedrun'. And the soundtrack was nice enough to come up as one track in Smash at least!

[@KitCloud1]

Can confirm. It's been awhile so I don't remember what you're talking about for defense but there's really nothing like playing two lines of attacks from tier 1-7 during one turn in origins.

[@sozius0]

Honestly turn based games are a lot of the times my preference though I've played almost no jrpgs. But there's chess, which is.... chess. 4x titles such as civilisation and endless space/legend that work well and although stellaris is good as a real time counterpart it is up to personal preference and turn based still dominates it. Then there's the ones that fir the combat title better being Xcom and the Banner Saga. Both great titles, banner saga may be lacking in permadeath that xcom has but xcom has that rng and banner saga has a seriously good story in the sense of a long saga.

[@dragonmaster1500]

Like that little skit at the beginning, that was great. I think that both Turn based and action based combat have their advantages and it depends on what sort of experience the game is trying to deliver. The Trails series by Nihon Falcom, for example, have a longer extended narrative and huge depth of worldbuilding and these aspects are reflected in the turn based battle system which really emphasizes battlefield positioning and strategy. I tend to like it a lot more than the turn based system used by games like final fantasy where all the characters line up and its literally just two rows of characters staring each other down. I know that there's depth to be found there, but they just feel so incredibly boring compared to their contemporaries, like Trails. If you take an action RPG game like the Ys series, made by Nihon Falcom, you'll notice that along with the much faster combat system, which is less about strategy and more about skill, they tend to have much faster paced stories. Part of this is most likely related to the fact that the combat system is fast paced, but I feel like to fit the pace of the combat the narrative has to move more quickly as well. Of course, lately Nihon has gotten really good about integrating their story and worldbuilding from Trails into the Ys series, but it's still fast paced, and they've begun creating a hybrid of their Ys style action combat and the tactical Trails combat for the newer Trails entries to help streamline encounters against lower level enemies and grinding. Which is something that I feel like more RPG developers should do. They also have some really good music, like really good. TLDR, Nihon Falcom makes good games and you should play them if you haven't.

[@richarddakazo2878]

One of my favorite RPG series is Etrian Odyssey. Its a dungeon crawler where you draw your own map and create a custom cast of playable characters

[@rhymeswithmoose228]

Another innovation I would have loved to hear about: Card games. Slay the Spire is a perfect example of adding an entire new dimension to turn-based gameplay.

[@kernium]

Another innovation I would have loved to hear about: Card games. Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain Of Memories is a bad example of adding an entire new dimension to turn-based gameplay.

[@nashvontookus7451]

He did briefly show Inscryption in the music section of the video

[@sombrego2260]

It's nice that you mentionned how menuing can be satisfying and is very important in turn based game. I would have loved if you also mentionned feedback and UI in general. I think that the DS and 3DS had some amazing turn based RPGs thanks to their dual screen for instance (the japanese exclusive DS version of Ni No Kuni was pretty cool for that).

[@mtj8870]

the epic battle fantasy series is one of the best rpg series ever made purely because the devs looked at all the wrongs of jrpgs and made an actually difficult and exciting one with no random encounters, no grinding, level scaling to you always, and every turn being a near death sentence depending on the enemies and bosses

[@SomeoneNooneTomatoes]

Have to mention it. Underhero is one of my top games with turn based combat without turns. You get a stamina bar witch depletes by certain amounts depending on how you attack and refills over time or refilled by dodging or parrying attacks. However if you have the coin then not fighting by bribing is cool to. Furthermore if you’re good enough then avoiding quite a few enemies is also an option. Would recommend for a fun active comedic adventure.

[@ComplexAce]

15:00 so basically the players WANT to be involved in the action in real-time but without the fear of risks. Which is what the action genre (at least the good games) are trying to develop A good action game is scalable: - easy to learn, hard to master - difficulty scales based on your level- - audio/VFX/story immersion are balanced to not clutter on screen and be focused on the current event (if a dialogue is in process, tone down the difficulty and effects, match the music to the dialogue, tone down the rest of the audio, and focus the visual processing on the character speaking) That's not to force a genre, just to give an idea about how action games handle these kind of things properly, I know many people enjoy turn based because of the kind of strategy it offers and that's a taste thing Also thanks for the video, gave me a lot of insights About music, solid point, it's something I really like about about action games, glad to see it here (especially NieR and Punishing Gray Raven) That also means good action games give the chance to relax while beating the shit outta things, like I said, they're supposed to be scalable but the general idea is that we're supposed to no hit run them

[@DjimonMoz]

It's like I always say: Execution over concept. I grew up on turn based JRPGs, and while I slowly shifted to preferring more action focused games, I can still jam to turn based battles.... if executed properly. Case in point: I played Dragon Quest XI and Octopath Travaler back to back. OT had me hooked on the battles since the beggining even despite the bullshit random encounters. DQXI's encounters left me so bored, I swear I would've dropped the game midway through the story if it didn't have the option to speed up the battles.

[@DoctorDucky250]

Child of Light has a fun spin on Turn based combat where you can slow down the opponent on a track so you can take more turns than them. I think it's fantastic for the genre.

[@JakeDomain]

I see you are a man of culture

[@omensoffate]

It copied grandia

[@LoboDibujante]

The Bravely Saga. Bravely Default is an absolute unit of a game: great battle system, great job system, great characters, great music... and good story (you all know what's keeping it from being great). My favorite game of all time.

[@AgentSilv]

Bravely isn't anything groundbreaking in terms of story but boy do the other aspects shine bright not you Vigintio.

[@raleo7466]

This. Also I totally recommend playing FFV, Bravely got the inspiration for it's class system from there basically and it's amazing. Octopath Traveler feels similar with the BP and class system combined. Too bad the story of all of them is a bit mediocre, but oh boy the gameplay is good

[@werh227]

First game forced downtime and sidestories (ruining the pacing) as well as an inability to actually hammer in its own idea of "have the courage to act out" by literally stalling and not doing anything until the very end... I'm not too familiar with the Br2nd or BD2 but I was told Yew's story had some bad tonal shifts... BD2 is even more of a mystery to me... Haven't gotten around to playing it either.

[@onimaxblade8988]

@@raleo7466 And if someone really likes the FFV system, and they also like tactical RPGS FFT is a bit of a cult classic.

[@skeletonwar4445]

@@AgentSilv Eh, depends on which one you're talking about Bravely Default 1 and Bravely Second are fine. They have some really fun twists and don't do anything terribly. They're nothing too special in the larger picture, but they're fine. (except for that part in BD1 where it just keeps dragging out the third act forever lul) Now BD2... yikes. It's just... so bad? The story only picks up around the fairy reveal and then it just comes to a screeching halt instantly again before suddenly ending with a shitty neutral ending and a boring true ending. BD2 in general was a massive downgrade in many regards. I was really looking forward to it pre-release only to be severely disappointed with it. It didn't even properly have the main gimmick of the series in it. Also BD1 and BS _(of course BD2 didn't include them...)_ have by far the sickest Summons in the entire Final Fantasy franchise and I'm going to personally fight anyone on that.

[@BananaTrooper3650]

Another thing keeps me excited when playing these games is finding new weapons and gear, I always feel exited to get the new weapon and try it out.

[@squwooshk]

I love Undertale, Deltarune, Mario Rpg, the Paper Mario Series, and the Mario and Luigi games. However, I have had a hard time getting into more traditional turn-based games, like Earthbound

[@samu-chan]

How

[@squwooshk]

@@samu-chan What do you mean how? All the games I listed have timing and dodging mechanics. Traditional RPGs don't