Is Warhammer The Old World Too Intimidating For New Hobbyists?

Are you dreading having to paint blocks of infantry or are you confident in your abilities to power through? Are you on the fence about trying The Old World? What concerns do you have? Let me know in the comments below!

[@SiliconSicilian]

WHTOW is the perfect system for someone new to the hobby because it is the one system where there are very experienced fanatics who want to share their knowledge and have a huge investment in doing so. The early monotony in rank and file troops is broken by spot pieces. When I was very young, miniatures got me interested and mimicking veteran hobbyists became my drive. Hopefully, new blood is brought in with the same passion I had when I started.

[@SpymasterGaming]

Now this is a very interesting perceptive and one I hadn't considered. Whether all of the veterans are going to give it the time of day is another thing though!

[@SiliconSicilian]

True, there are those who won't. I'm hoping that most will. I know my circle has been waiting for years for this to be official again. We've played 6th loyally and are more than willing to help the new. Discount models anyone? Painting and hobby tips? We're there for them.@@SpymasterGaming

[@warpdrivedude]

It’s not intimidating. Great game! Will the cost keep new gamers away? ABSOLUTELY!

[@SpymasterGaming]

True...sad but true 😞

[@TheToxicP]

I would never encourage a new hobbyist into buying the Old World anyways and it doesn't have anything to do with the amount of painting. It has to do with the Old World being a SPECIALIST game that could go the way of the Dodo not to mention new hobbyists would probably want a more guaranteed player base. 40k, AoS & to a lesser extent kill team & Necromunda are safer bets for people new to the hobby. Anyone invested in the hobby who goes out of there way to recommend the Old World as a first stop - they're doing it for selfish reasons (wanting other people) and it does the new hobbyist zero favors.

[@SpymasterGaming]

That's a very fair point in terms of it now being a specialist game, but there are a lot of mini agnostic rank and flank games thst exist that people can use the models for that won't be going away any time soon 😀

[@noprobllama9747]

Never considered painting identical models to be a barrier to entry. It was nice painting where you knew where to put your brush after the 3rd model. A bit of muscle memory kicks in.

[@SpymasterGaming]

I agree, but its whether muscle memory starts to turn into monotony for people which may be the difference. Hopefully not!

[@kevoreilly6557]

First, I don’t necessarily disagree as what you’re describing is what us oldies had to deal with 20 years ago, which explains why us old WHFB are such crusty old bastards - can’t paint 200 skaven models with thin skin!! Here’s the difference - slap chop, washes and contrast paints truly make this so much easier than it used to be. On 15mm we used to the paint and dip, but just didn’t work for 28-30 I honestly, I don’t think most peoples level of painting is of a standard that painting a reduced style (zen, contrast, shade, highlight) is really an issue. Will we see “I painted an army in 24hrs” video … no. Re painting - knuckle down and get it done, then we can argue about how stupid the movement rules are :) Great video! Yes it’s different to building “squad” size units and this was always the comparison between w40k and whfb.

[@LSOP-]

No, I learned 6th ed at 14 and painted a 300 skaven models therse drama channels need to grow up.

[@SpymasterGaming]

Not intending to cause drama, just to ask a question. If fantasy was the normal game when you were 14, my point is there is a generation of hobbyists who haven't been exposed to the 'rank and flank' mentality that's all.

[@IcarusGames]

Something I haven't seen spoken about a lot since Old World started coming back into the public conversation is that back in the day, it was super common, and even RECOMMENDED by GW that when painting a big unit of models for Warhammer, the front rank would get more attention than the others. So you would have two sort of different approaches to painting. You'd have your back ranks scheme which was more basic and focused on big impactful color and detail, and then your front rank was a chance within the batch painting to spend a little extra time on 4-5 models and put some more love into them. Getting back into that mindset will take some getting used to for sure! I'm painting up my first unit of Bretonnians at the moment and it's already taught me so much about how I'm going to need to approach this army to remain sane and hope to complete it.

[@SpymasterGaming]

I remember people doing that locally too and it is a really practical hack that I hope they look at showing with their painting tutorials

[@chad534]

They aren't intimidating they are simplistic. Blocks of troops and no terrain. The rules get bloated to make up for the simplicity to make the longbeards feel like it's complicated. I do agree having to paint sooo many figures of the same pose is a barrier to playing the game as intended.

[@fnordiumendures138]

I think the problem you are describing have always existed. If painting regiments does not appeal to someone, Warhammer was never for them. However. In order to invest in an army, in order to do all this work, you do have to believe that the game will stick around and your particular army will be supported. Otherwise you could just do a hero, a regiment of ten and a war machine and put them in a display cabinet.

[@martinmeltzer2696]

Hi Andy! New Subscriber here. I think a lot depends on the "look" the wargamer is trying to achieve in their units. Those who want their units to have a more regular uniform look to them will prefer one or two similar poses. Others, perhaps coming from the skirmisher side of the hobby, will want a lot more individuality to their figures! Both have their reasons and advantages... but at the end of the day, when viewed from 2 to 3 feet away, the individuals merge into their groupings on the Ol' Tabletop!

[@SpymasterGaming]

Welcome! Excellent points especially your last one, limited colours and detail can still look impressive at a distance!

[@tanewoodley9806]

Funny, I feel the opposite. Painting 20 similar models makes it much easier, compared to 20 different poses where you have to differentiate different elements. Also, I think GW models have been too detailed for at least 12 years now; I gave up on a unit of 20 White Lions because of all the detail and only went back and finished them last month, 8 years after starting them. In a game where models are removed by the handful, putting 8 gems, sculpted armour, tassels and claws on each model is madness. I'm hoping that I don't need more Ellyrian Reavers because the 10 I painted took me about 5 months and a lot if heartache. The turnoff I find, apart from the price (much worse in NZ, where it's approx 300 quid for the Tomb Kings box set) are the number of models needed to play a normal game and the silly details on them. Those are real barriers to entey I believe.

[@SpymasterGaming]

So you think the design philosophy changed prior to the introduction of age of sigmar? I can see that with some of the sculpts that have carried over for sure 😀

[@tanewoodley9806]

@Spymaster.Gaming I think it started.then, but without ranking up and with lower model counts, your points about individual posing and increased detailing is correct. I hope that reverses for WOW, painting armies is hard enough as it is, I don't want it harder than it needs to be.

[@AnthorAlderian]

The newer models are a lot more intricate, but they also suffer from the monotony problem for painting. They're monopose so if you buy more than one box, you're painting the same (over)complicated model again in the exact same pose. The older models can at least be posed differently to keep things fresh, and the level of detail is a lot less so you get the "quick win" rush of being able to get a model done much quicker.

[@SpymasterGaming]

So you think that newer hobbyists may leap at the opportunity to paint something simple? I hope this is the case 😀

[@DETHMOKIL]

old playing was about blocking out a whole evening and playing a big army for like 3-4 hours a game. killteam, AoS playing is smaller army, played faster for lots of reasons. variety of lotsa different teams sure, but If you just want mini variety, then my dear old multi part kit would still be lamented. People are waaay into those monopose marines each with exactly the same legs... However time commitment of "getting bored" is a big indicator of a different thing. This nu-class of "lore only fans" spend EVEN LESS time then that, and they consume it entirely differently too! they aren't arent reading the old rulebooks or anything, they are watching videos online of people who read them and reformatted the content into "LORE" videos. Completely different experience from even the 10 mini skirmish games. they wanna get the vibes from every faction, right away. dont like it? stop. no investment required. converting those guys is like telling a dnd player they gotta be DM everytime. you gotta do it for them, as a friend, and hold their hand through a like 5 games in team events or something to show its not scary to do something difficult on your own that might not turn out every good in the end. THEN maybe then, they will buy a killteam. not 3 blocks of 30 clan rats. thats BIg DM energy these days. I'm not even that old damanit, but the woooorld is changing around me aaaaaaaaa

[@SpymasterGaming]

So essentially what you think it comes to is an attention span issue? I'd be inclined to agree, especially about the not being that old but feeling old 😢

[@DETHMOKIL]

@@SpymasterGaming ehh yeah basically, but not from a "dang kids and their phones!" grumpy old man kind of way. People are working much longer hours for less pay and are spread so thin in every direction, its kinda easy to slot your relaxation chill activity in ways that work what everyone is doing. It can take months to get confident enough in your painting that you are making real progress. There is a real big risk adverse aspect to it all too. There are so many great tutorials online now that all flawlessly finish each step perfectly, I cant blame people for getting discouraged. you never see total bum looking minis that most people actually use on youtube. I mean and like, hell, people don't even like to get together to drink beers and watch TV anymore. Like, maybe a group chat about the same show but not to just blame phones and video games, but phone stuff is defiantly eating up all the upside with out any of the annoying bummer stuff like driving cases of months of work and hundreds of dollars to a second location at a specific time and date to maybe play a good game if THAT GUY isn't there with his cheese. Or just like, talk about it at your convenience and get your drip feed of dopamine algorithmically. speaking of lol, I went onto KZbin to find out what Empire armies are looking like in the new rules and I got completely side tracked and didn't do NOTHING. But I guess the parry save is gone so I'll dig out some spears. maybe tomorrow. eventally...

[@SpymasterGaming]

@DETHMOKIL I agree with you on so many points there. For me having to balance creating content and actually getting on with hobby is difficult. It slows me down drastically which is saddening but as you say limited time and being pulled in so many directions, you can quickly lose track!

[@pigzy9807]

Cool video, these under the hood style topics is where allot of peoples time is actuality spent. I think in the last ten years or so, the painting standard for the average person has improved allot. Trying to paint rank and file to a modern standard could also create allot more drain than painting at level that was common 20 year ago. I do think there are some more modern equines and tools that could help people blast through armies, like contrast/speed paints or 'slap chop'. Paint coverage and quality has also improved quite a bit for some brands

[@SpymasterGaming]

This is very true with regards to there being a higher standard as actual step by step tutorials are a thing now whereas 20 years ago they weren't. It will be telling to see if people can willingly go with the 'good enough' mentality or they'll be driven to achieve the perfect look

[@pigzy9807]

​@@SpymasterGaming I am a 40k player and very interested in old world. painting 'good enough' is something that will be hard for me but I think it will also be for the best if I ever want to get an army on the table.

[@SpymasterGaming]

@pigzy9807 good luck with it 😀

[@SamLast-m2f]

A great video Andy and a interesting topic. I would say one of the biggest factors is which army you pick, undead, skaven, Lizardmen and Beastmen you will have easier time with painting as they lend themselves to dryburshing and washes. Empire I would say is one of the more difficult forces as they have a lot of skin tones and need a large amount of models to make a army. With models being identical I don't think is the biggest barrier to entry, as Warhammer fantasy having basic troops really help your characters stand out because of the contrast. It is important for new player where they are completely new or already 40K / AOS players to know what they are getting into that fantasy requires more model in 6th Skaven could easier get to 200 models at 2000pts army. I guess GW will push large armies boxes onto new players as the older returning player will know what they want. Which is why I can see new player starting and then giving up after a few models as most units are a minimum size of 20. My recommendation to a new player would be picking up a unit of basic melee troops and range unit if the army has it and a character. That way you can dip your toe in get a feel for both painting and the gaming side before committing more money.

[@martynsmith820]

I think Rank and Flank can look intimidating and can look scary from a "all the same model standpoint", but once you get painting you realise how quickly you can get through units, compared to modern AoS and 40K models were every model has an obnoxious amount of detail and are almost hero units. The odd thing is that certain AoS armies aren't far off a ToW army in terms of model count with way more effort per model needed to make them look good. Compare an empire swordsman to a cities of sigmar equivalent. You can paint the empire swordsman with 4 colours and it will look fine in a massed block, the cities model however will look unfinished. In addition (for me) I tend to paint rank and flank in ranks, which really helps to keep motivation going because you see the unit come together as you go, that said, I am running on nostalgia and a love for the look :)

[@dontthinkjustcharge]

Interesting thoughts. I do think that part of the appeal of WFB was also it's biggest downside, and that's simulating the massed battles with huge blocks of troops. It looks awesome on the table and a battle report but it requires painting so much! But I also think you can get into the mindset that a unit can look good with a much lower amount of effort. If you just throw a few contrasts onto each dude and then put some effort into the leader/banner, it will look just as good as an AoS 5 man unit where each model is painted well. It's more about seeing your hundreds of models massed on the field than each random mook being painted to high standards.

[@SpymasterGaming]

Very true, it's whether people can visualise that end goal and power through which will be telling!

[@NexUtInfinitus]

@@SpymasterGamingI think a lot of Total War players will buy into the old world then flood the market with models. Then we can scoop it all up cheap 😉👌

[@Magyarkhan]

imo they should have streamlined rules more esp how combat works all those dice rolls could be combined in less fewer rolls

[@Haydinius]

Very interesting thoughts, I think that the challenges you mention with regards to painting are more due to the massive changes in how we approach the hobby now more than the actual miniatures. Fantasy was more about steadily growing an army at a healthy pace, and truly identifying and appreciating your faction and how I your army is growing. But the mentality now is much more of a fast fashion approach, where you consider a project finished when you’ve painted a whole AOS army, and then you move onto the next. This is exemplified by even some of the comments here talking about about contrast paints and slap chop (both are cool imo), but it shows that our minds have changed to want instant gratification now, and the same product from 15+ years ago doesn’t necessarily fit into that criteria anymore. I really enjoyed the video, thank you 😁

[@SpymasterGaming]

You're welcome, glad you enjoyed it! I agree about the instant gratification element as that is endemic of society as a whole. I just hope it doesn't lead to people burning out and becoming disillusioned

[@Haydinius]

@@SpymasterGaming That’s true, maybe the fact they brought back all the old sculpts will help with keeping people motivated from nostalgia a bit too! (For me definitely 😂)

[@Svengar]

It certainly is a very different type of game which requires a lot of models painted up which is a huge investment in money and effort. Back when I played there weren’t any contrast paints, the closest thing being inks which certainly did help immensely vs just plain base coat. Some armies show the appearance of more individualism than others. I think the Empire offers a bit more variety in appearance but certainly TK are highly repetitive. AOS armies like Gravelords and FEC have a fair bit of repetition as well for the rank and file types at least I haven’t painted for a while but now that you can in theory buy as many previously OOP models as you want I will try getting back into it. I will definitely be making use of contrast paints plus the Vallejo ones

[@Archaeologyhat]

tbh the giant fiddly models that pop up in 40k and AoS and seem to be something the studio designs around are more offputting to me as someone who has been out of the hobby for a long time. the prospect of painting 40 night goblins seems a fairly chill time by comparison.

[@SpymasterGaming]

This is what I was getting at! You were used to a simpler model and may find it easy to paint them but conversely people used that level of detail may struggle with simplicity 😀

[@AM-uw3gp]

WHFB was always difficult to get to the point of having a painted army, I still have hordes of unpainted minis from 25 years ago, thankfully we now have some great painting tutorials on KZbin and more online content to motivate people to paint, I’m getting much better results since coming back to the hobby 6 months ago and am on my way to finally having a full painted HE army, I have a TK box set coming but am totally going to cheat and slapchop those skeletons quick as possible

[@SpymasterGaming]

That's an interesting point, so you think as painting content is more accessible (rather than the half-baked tutorials of old white dwarf magazines) you think it will remove the barriers to being able to paint a large amount of models? It makes sense and I hope it's the case!

[@AM-uw3gp]

@@SpymasterGaming it should certainly help new players who want to just play the game more than have perfectly painted armies, I’ve definitely noticed certain painting and modeling information is way easier to find these days than when I first started, I remember getting stuck so many times on which paints to use and it was a smaller range of colours back then, plus I had no idea what a wet palette was or how to thin paints etc

[@mikemclaughlin3306]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.... it wasn't for 30 years. Apparently, Gen z and young millenials can't comprehend more than "point model this way, and go"

[@WhiskeyjackZA]

I think when the Old World hype from content creators and the marketing from GW hits reality is when especially new but also returning players start building, painting and playing. I think the rules crunch will be a bigger problem! I started with 8th 40K, AoS, Infinity and then Legion and Shatterpoint. I like modern design, streamlined rules and not too busy miniatures. I no longer own any GW stuff. (Had three 40k and three AoS 2000+ armies). I started playing BA and Saga about two years ago and also historical games like Black Powder etc. Whilst Saga fits modern design, BA and especially Black Powder are closer to the Old World. However, playing competitively in for instance BP is not a thing...What I am getting at is that for more sweaty and competitive play I am way past GW games and like stuff like Legion, Shatterpoint and on the historical side BA (not a great competitive design) and Saga. But for narrative, fun and beer & pretzel some of these historical game designs are great (although a lot can become too simulation like for my tastes). I think Old World can be fun if you are picking it up with the latter mindset to start. If you want to play competively not only do I think you gonna find a pretty unbalanced and problematic game until the community fixes it - but you will need lots of hand holding and perseverance...

[@poxous3854]

WFB is what real hobbyist are about. AOS is almost a non hobby game.

[@SpymasterGaming]

Interesting...can you elaborate on that a bit more?