Islam and creation | Ismail - South Africa | Atheist Experience 23.40

[@warrenphillips69]

See how the call goes when the caller listens & waits to speak....

[@davidk7529]

Freaking spectacular, isn't it

[@bejoscha]

Yes. Actually some conversations are worth having... and listening to. If you're not in for the "show" of making fun of others, that is. I like the episodes best, were some real conversation is going on. Thank you Ismail for your call. I'm not sharing your beliefs, but I liked your call and style.

[@lexluther1303]

Yeh that's generally how a conversation goes, a debate or argument on the other hand doesn't always go smooth, if that's what your trying to get at?

[@musiclasstube5773]

Agreed. Some people call in to learn and reason through their beliefs and some people call to debate and convince. It’s easy to hear the difference after you’ve listened to a few dozen of these calls.

[@shanewilson7994]

Yup, and he's done at least a basic amount of research on his topic and steel man's the position the best he can off of the bat.

[@vvinicius100]

I watch A LOT of Atheist Experience youtube videos and this call is the reason for it. Sometimes, a smart and reasonable person calls in and the conversation is interesting, everyone gets to talk and listen to the other and we can all learn something new. Thank you Ismail, Matt and Davel, for this great conversation

[@enricopajaro4046]

Man this guy was SO close. An obviously intelligent and curious person so unfortunately stuck in a belief forced on him by circumstances and chance. Ismail you can do it!

[@jdmac44]

He'll get there. Many seeds were effectively planted this day. It just takes time for it to sink in, I doubt faith is ever dropped that quickly.

[@sagisstar4553]

Enrico Pajaro well said.. I agree

[@momentz8088]

He is almost there...need a small push

[@tinatammaro1694]

And if he is also listening to Cosmic Skeptic he is really is searching. Very thoughtful gentle man

[@billyrankin8890]

Do what exactly, think like you ?

[@l8tbraker]

Wow, this call covered a lot of territory. Thanks to the hosts and Ishmael for being polite and reasonable.

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

JIHAD .................

[@bidenhasdementia8657]

@@ralfhaggstrom9862 "Quran 9;29, "Fight that who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibited what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiorty and they are in a state of subjection.". Quran(3:151)"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". Quran (9:123) "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness." Quran( 17:16) "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Quran (25:52)" "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness with it." Quran (33: 60-62)"If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease (evil desire for adultery, etc.), and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbors but a little while Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter." Quran (47:3-4) "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." Quran (47:35) "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you," Quran (48:17) "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Quran(48:29) "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Quran(61:4) "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His cause" Quran(61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of'Adn- Eternity ['Adn(Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success. Quran(66:9) "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." Quran(3:56) "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Quran(4:74)"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

Total Verrueckt .....................@@bidenhasdementia8657

[@bidenhasdementia8657]

@@ralfhaggstrom9862 Matthew 5:43 - Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy." "Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" "Romans 12:20 - Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." Luke 6:27 - But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you" "Romans 12:14 - Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not." "Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" "Matthew 5:38-39 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also" VS "Quran 9;29, "Fight that who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibited what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiorty and they are in a state of subjection.". Quran(3:151)"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". Quran (9:123) "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness." Quran( 17:16) "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Quran (25:52)" "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness with it." Quran (33: 60-62)"If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease (evil desire for adultery, etc.), and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbors but a little while Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter." Quran (47:3-4) "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." Quran (47:35) "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you," Quran (48:17) "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Quran(48:29) "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Quran(61:4) "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His cause" Quran(61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of'Adn- Eternity ['Adn(Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success. Quran(66:9) "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." Quran(3:56) "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Quran(4:74)"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

What the hell are these "quotings", more than PURE STUPIDITY ? ...........................@@bidenhasdementia8657

[@psychlos21]

Ismail engaged in an intelligent dialogue by posing questions and listening. Loved this exchange. This is the way we all need to engage in debates. Dialogue and mindfulness (awareness) go a long way.

[@patrikandersson8054]

This has got to be the best episode ever. The dialogue was respectful from all sides, the discussion remained at a high intellectual level, and the points made at the end were just spot on.

[@brianalmeida1964]

I thought this was one of the better discussions because the caller, even though he danced around the main topic, actually was reasonable and gave the impression that he understood what he was doing rather than just quoting scripture.

[@brinstarmedia1411]

Most times I enjoy the crazy pants callers as a guilty pleasure, but I really enjoyed this call because it was a really good conversation.

[@robertclaflin8021]

Jason Noble Kllll

[@nuffflavor]

Yes, but even still, it seems that a religious person does not want to be "called out" even though they deeply know that they have no way to prove their faith is fact. They rather just continue with it no matter how foolish you make them look. 😊

[@bejoscha]

Defending one's position (with thought and openeness) is the way the mind processes things. One has to give people that space and time if one is really after convincing somebody. People look equally "foolish" when they defend some (outrageously) wrong facts they believe in as well.

[@nuffflavor]

"the hardest prison to escape is your mind".... 😮😊

[@kanthaj6518]

Amen to that guilty pleasure. me too in to that guilty pleasure.

[@roeliethegoat]

He mentioned CosmicSkeptic. That makes me so happy.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Great call. Again, every time the callers claims were thoroughly debunked he moved onto something else so I'm glad Matt put him to task at the end. Dave and Matt make a great team imo

[@KatlegoBogosi]

Ismail represented South Africans very well in his intelligence and that the majority of South Africans are very theist, with Christianity being the majority due colonisation of the British monarchy. Recently told my mother that I am an Atheist and her response was that I might be possessed 😂😅🤣

[@skienaborogo9955]

What a great call from a fellow South African.

[@dadaseyi]

This is such a great call. So many concepts clearly discussed.

[@jeremygovender]

Heeeyyy my people in south africa are listening... progress.. thaks matt and david

[@warrenphillips69]

Aweh, ey men hows it going my lanie?

[@jeremygovender]

@@warrenphillips69 HOWZIT from Amsterdam my bru... Where you at?

[@warrenphillips69]

@@jeremygovender awesome, Cape Town.

[@jeremygovender]

@@warrenphillips69 awsome that you guys are listening to this show, wish i could get my family to start .. never been down to capetown.. from durbs myself.. have quite a few friends here in the Netherlands from cape town

[@warrenphillips69]

@@jeremygovender funny, was born in Westville myself. I last lived there in 2008. When last did you have a bunny?

[@warren52nz]

Nothing starts a tap dance faster than saying "Where's your evidence for your belief?"

[@elisdeliofa5570]

Or start a fairy story of their book "Once upon a time, there is a powerful ultimate almighty being named GOD....he created everything.......end of story.......believe it, it's true"

[@tedgrant2]

And he moves around the floor like Fred Astaire.

[@tedgrant2]

@@elisdeliofa5570 Hmm. I see no reason to believe Tom & Jerry are boys dressed up.

[@warren52nz]

@Viktor Tandofsky Sure... if you don't care if your beliefs are true. I can't understand why anyone would choose willful ignorance. Can you tell me why?

[@warren52nz]

@Eddie Edwards Yeah strange eh? Why anyone would spend the only life they'll ever have living inside a fairy tale is beyond me. Scepticism is the best path forward. I always check claims that sound dodgy and few sound dodgier than religion.

[@dikheel]

This is by far one of the best episodes I’ve listened to. Very informative discussion and true open mindedness. Wish to watch more.

[@hjb-1g8]

Wow. This was a great discussion.

[@karl_andre]

Yes quality content

[@JamesRichardWiley]

The great advantage Matt and Dave have over callers is the thoroughness of their investigation. They have already met and examined most religious claims without the fear of a loving god sending them screaming into hell.

[@arkdark5554]

Matt, I like you and your reasoning very much...and, I don’t think I’m the only one. Salute.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

His reasoning is immaculate imo

[@danmccarron0]

He's good at what he does and has stood the test of time. He mentions Sam Harris on occasion - I would put him on a similar level intellectually.

[@arkdark5554]

Danimal Certainly so.

[@danmccarron0]

@@arkdark5554 On that note It was Fascinating watching Sam and Jordan Peterson discussing the topic. I watched it recently. I wonder how it would be with Matt instead of Sam. Jordan is extremely precise but verbose and Matt is very blunt. Something awesome like this: Jordan: "The accumulation of the possible permutations of those established archetypes typically revered among common social structures, under the rubric of, perhaps, epic heroism or successful leadership of historical significance, not just exhaustively through biological epiphenomenology, but in some sense metaphysically as, maybe, a, perhaps, proclivity toward this embedded belief in a mythos, manifests itself by willful assimilation into a hierarchy favorable to survival whose particular details are specified by the learning and experience that is presented to the individual from environment....this in some sense can be cast into the notion of what we call God' " Matt: "Well, If that's how he wants to make himself known to me then God is a dick and I wouldn't want to listen anyway."

[@arkdark5554]

Danimal I don’t think Matt is being "blunt" here. I think he’s dead straight and sharp, as always. I also couldn’t agree more about God’s being a dick. 😆😆😆

[@slyfoxrocks]

That was a great call and awesome conversation.

[@Diviance]

Gotta love creation myths. You aren't supposed to actually _believe_ them, people.

[@harveywabbit9541]

In the beginning, the gods separated the pussy (Heaven - 6 days in Genesis 1) and the pecker (Earth - 6 nights in Genesis 1) for six months. They spend six months longing for each other and finally at the fall equinox they become one again and remain so for another six months.

[@phant0mwolf421]

Hence the word "myth." "Lead thou me on, O Zeus and Destiny, To that goal long ago to me assigned. Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.” -Greek mythology Prayer to zeus.

[@truthmatters8795]

Only idiots believe that some magic cloud grandpa made them.

[@truthmatters8795]

@Stephen Sachs I'll take a joint instead, if possible.

[@jaymiddleton1782]

Truthus Maximus religious people aren’t necessarily idiots. If you’re raised with a religion and everyone in your society believes it, you will probably end up believing it, too. But there are obviously some religious idiots.

[@nileist6666]

This guy from South Africa, is by far my favorite caller(that's not an idiot and fun to laugh at) very good conversation

[@Medhusalem]

Oh damn, the last argument from Matt was amazing. Really easy to understand and right on point. Keep it up.

[@vegass04]

I agree. But this argument is almost impossible for Matt to usually give because most of the theist that call in aren't open enough to engage in this kind of conversation that led to Ishmael giving those "I don't know" answers. Believers hate that "I don't know"...Ish is gonna have to have some soul searching and decide if he's a true believer. He gave only one idiotic answer in these whole 28 minutes where he tried to claim that Christianity and Islam are all one religion. That is completely bogus cause they are mutually excluding. There's no way on this Earth for both of them to be right given the opposing tenets of Christianity and Islam.

[@jiveshhanoomaun2462]

So cool to see a fellow South African call the show

[@TheBuildKingR]

Agree!

[@ghostface5559]

Africa sucks

[@athiahsidik114]

He's not from that Singapore. He's from the Republic of Singapore. It's in Asia.

[@AizenIPlannedIt]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is real dammit!

[@fvcksoggydickgamez206]

Jerry Gossett jr. A racist religious person, what a surprise.

[@jamestor6700]

@@fvcksoggydickgamez206 I think he was mocking a religious person but maybe I'm just hoping it is so

[@michaelhellwinkle9999]

@Paulo Mendes you...hate.... spaghetti...... are you even human?

[@WidarsHall]

May you be touched by Its noodly appendage ~

[@pastaapostle9388]

Raman 😂😂😂

[@El.Duderino369]

I learned a little Arabic when I was in the Marines and I was surprised by how many religious references are made in everyday conversation.

[@krillin6]

"Why do you believe God exists?" "I was indoctrinated into it!" Great reasoning, bro

[@warrenphillips69]

Awe geeze

[@sycofreake1]

@Horner 37 if you understood science and history, you would understand there's no magic genie who makes mountains. Did you know that you've never seen a scale picture of the universe? If you shrunk the biggest planet down to a dot ( . ) Pluto would be about 1.2 kilometres of paper away from the sun. The more you know about science and reality, it's just a big empty universe full of random shit.

[@sycofreake1]

@Horner 37 they're used to describe things in ways we can understand. Literally that simple. That's us saying a water molecule is h20, 2 parts this one part that. Things are made of things that can join and react. Then we describe those. A mountain forms where a mountain can form. You're comparing that to a car. When a cars start forming in nature call me back

[@sycofreake1]

@Horner 37 until we can study "nothing" then we don't know. I'm gonna say I don't know how the universe came about but there's no reason to think it came about through an intelligence or intelligent design. That's what the scientific consensus is right now, if it changes I'll call you

[@sycofreake1]

@Horner 37 best thing I can do is give you an analogy. A car breaks down. Did someone tamper with it, or was it a mechanical malfunction? Your ability to figure that out is only as good as your ability to check the car. So if a car broke down 50 years ago, and you're looking at it now, it would be really hard to tell. You're saying you know the car was tampered with, going against the consensus of mechanics and experts and I'm siding with the "inconclusive" consensus. The universe is billions of years old and infinitely harder to examine than a car.

[@DavLegit]

The possibility of getting killed for apostasy lends weight to the theological argument. "I could get murdered if I agree with you therefore God."

[@SnuggLeona]

Well it's a rational conclusion based on survival at least lol

[@rybobz]

The want to live definitely makes indoctrination easier on a mass scale fear is a great way to control actions I would teach my children Islam if the other option was prison or death

[@Gumpmachine1]

@Dom_90 except it wouldn’t work so worship would be pointless

[@Mephistopheles111]

Scott Davis so is Christianity! Kill the infants, dash the heads of the babies on the rocks, beat your slave with a rod and he can die on the 3rd day and no punishment, drug rape your dad, stone your children, etc....

[@hippegast12]

@@Mephistopheles111 the only thing what's different with Christianity and islam is that chistians don't do those things anymore(killing ppl for not believing and such)

[@DQ_Mine]

This was one of my favorites. Excellent conversation.

[@davidk7529]

I wonder if Ismail is thinking of leaving his religion and is just looking for more clarification so that he can find closure with his decision? It seems like a pretty rational stage to undergo, and a great reason to call in to the program.

[@byteme9718]

He already has. I know many Muslims like him. In 25 years of living in an Islamic country I have only known a handful who pray five times a day. They are just like most Christians who kind of believe but just go through the motions of weddings and funerals although more because if the large family sizes. They have a fear of admitting this and that's understandable because where I leave this to come out and say they want to convert or become atheist results in arrest and detention. Ismail has though through all his arguments as far as he was able but was seeking ones that went further. Arguments he could not have within normal social circles within his community. Social pressures will probably never let him be what he wants to be and that's sad but even in the Christian US similar persecution exists and can destroy careers and see people and families (even children) ostracised. I was lucky to grow up in a region of Europe where this is not usually a problem.

[@driver288]

This was probably the best call I’ve ever watched on your show. Good discussion from all involved. Entertaining and insightful

[@sterlingarcher4989]

With the burden of proof concept, I think a lot of Theists don’t understand that you can’t have an Atheist without a Theist. As the Theist claim comes first, they therefore hold the burden of proof.

[@elliot7205]

Excellent so what criteria have you adopted to establish what evidence is applicable and what is not? if you make a claim you are an atheist you then need to establish how you arrived at that position?

[@sterlingarcher4989]

@@elliot7205 Athiests aren’t making a claim, they are simply not believing the Theist’s claim that, ‘there is a God’. They are not claiming that ‘there is no God/Gods’.

[@johnpelosi4117]

The whole idea of the Atheist Community of Austin in providing Atheist Outreach in this Forum is justified by this call, it exemplifies communication regarding touchy subjects in a respectful, intelligent and reasonable manner. Thank you AXP!

[@sagisstar4553]

This was a really good one

[@jonathans.bushnell789]

Great call ... very interesting and a patient caller .. well done :)

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

The flying spaghetti monster is real, I want my beer volcano and stripper factory damn it!

[@johnbee3416]

R'amen

[@ufutz]

That's a mis-translation, it's actually a stripper volcano and a beer factory. Common mistake though.

[@michaelhellwinkle9999]

@@ufutz apostate

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

@NO NAME 00110001001110010011100000110100 My spaghetti monster will kick your pepes ass!!!

[@Nissenov]

@@ufutz Nope, it is beer stripper and volcano factory.

[@truthprevails8836]

Thank this guy for asking relevant questions and having the capacity to listen.

[@sonsofthepatriots8883]

Im ex Moslem and im free ❤

[@anthonynork9718]

Got to correct you on the integers: The set of all integers us just as big as the set of positive integers. In mathematics you have "countable" and "uncountable" infinity. Uncountable infinity > countable infinity. You have countable infinity for the sets up to rational numbers and uncountable infinit, for real numbers and such. I can elaborate, why the sets have the same size: For you can assign one natural number to each integer. Example: Start with 1 (or 0, however you like) and you assign 0 to it. (1,0) Next (2,1), then (3,-1), (4,2), (5,-2) and so one. Since you have an infinite amount of numbers in each set you should realize that you could go forever, having "every number" of each set given a number of the other one.

[@galacticbob1]

Came to the comments looking for this! Glad I was not disappointed. 😁 Those two sets (positive and negative integers) Matt mentioned are indeed equally infinite in terms of the number of members in each set, known as aleph null, the smallest cardinality of infinite sets. However, later on Matt mentions the real number set, which is an order of cardinality larger (aleph one, the smallest uncountable infinity) and demonstrably larger than the combination set of positive and negative integers. All those numberphile and vihart videos finally paid off!

[@anthonynork9718]

I'm a maths student, so I have it from my university... But I also am a big fan of numberphile. 😁

[@ethanmaca5288]

Anthony Nork good catch found this in some other comments too. Hopefully he sees it!

[@tutsandreacts8021]

Great Call From my Neighbor, I wasn't expect that from a Muslim! He Just needs to Start Questioning! from Your Neighbor in Mozambique Peace.

[@cyansloth1763]

My adhd brain when they talk about the edge of the coin: I'M ON THE EEEEEEEEDGE OF GLOOOOOORY- Oh wait sorry. Coins. Probability. Right.

[@danieljackson4511]

"first we have to assume theres a prime mover..." "weell there is your problem!" :D

[@davidk8938]

wow this is a great discussion !

[@davegonnaway6007]

You have to get up pretty early to catch matt out

[@kieronbrowne7881]

Matt would have to be asleep.

[@OneLove-vn2yo]

Kieron Browne Everybody sleep FOOL!

[@joesmoke9624]

Kieron Browne Matt is asleep

[@richardw4132]

Baie mooi Ismail. A good conversation!!

[@xWaxxy]

Net so bru

[@HappyHippieGaymer]

Ill never get the “if the universe is infinite then we couldn’t have gotten here.” Why? Pretending that an infinite chain of events can’t lead to any event at all is a self defeating assertion.

[@cy-one]

@Tom Harry Do you?

[@cy-one]

@Tom Harry Good. Let's just assume the Gaymer does as well and go from there instead of attempting to poison the well.

[@cy-one]

@Tom Harry Yes, assume. Same as I assume what you said is actually true and not just a baseless assertion.

[@cy-one]

@Tom Harry :)

[@cy-one]

@Tom Harry Then you really might need to rethink how you come across, because it came across _really_ doubtful. And in combination with you not actually making any point whatsoever (like for example, picking something regarding infinity that's often misunderstood and is relevant to Gaymer's post), it just looks like poisoning the well.

[@paulwheatcroft8916]

Great discussion! Anyone else think its really great that one of the best episodes was with a Muslim caller?

[@destronia123]

Caller: "Logic is good, but you have to turn your brain off to accept that my religion is true, and there's no logical argument that will ever change that."

[@alistairjames490]

Wow I am from South Africa I never thought I would hear someone calling from here it’s so surreal

[@3aZM]

I am an atheist from a Muslim background and I know why Ishmael believes at the moment because the cost of not believing is enormous.

[@amiradil1060]

We can change the culture by challenging the norms otherwise we have to live in tyranny forever. X-muslim here.

[@3aZM]

@@amiradil1060 Nice to see you here ✌

[@furious32ninja]

Hannibal, it is extremely sad that in a loving religious community that you can be ostracised by friends and family for thinking differently! That to me is the poison of religion.

[@3aZM]

@Tom Harry Provide proper proof , adding more claims one over another doesn't qual to proof, a god is another dimension please add proof ,a god is in a shoe please add proof or god under the bed please add proof of any kind.

[@3aZM]

@Tom Harry So no proof then talk about metaphorical and all that has no weight, let us reach the metaphorical world and then worry about all of this nonsense.

[@Mahdy89]

What an amazing fucking conversation. I wish every AXP call is as intelligent, calm, and thoughtful as this one.

[@RobertoVelazquez91]

I have respect for Ismail because he actually wanted to have a conversation instead lording his beliefs over people like most callers

[@mhah21]

What a nice episode...and i actually learnt something today...love that south africans way of posing qeustions and then waiting for answers...and the way he answers the qeustions...not dodging an dancing around...wow what a show....

[@boomdelted]

I think his argument about the cloud was a perfect example of his brain power. Matt got to deep in the example xD

[@expaddler]

One of the few good calls on The Atheist Experience.

[@keithvoytek976]

Mathematician nitpick time: the set of all integers is equally as infinite as the set of all positive integers as a bijection can be formed between the two (each can be put into a bijective relation with the naturals so they are both countably infinite and therefor by transitivity can form a bijection with one another). However, the set of irrational numbers between 0-1 is of greater order (uncountably infinite)...math is weird.

[@ethanmaca5288]

Keith Voytek was looking for this very comment thank you.

[@mythai9593]

Brilliant and you could just picture Ismail thinking wow this man is talking so much sense.

[@Kausarniyazee]

Perfect example of how smart people suddenly sound so dumb when it comes to their faith. This is what religion does to one’s mind. And I am appalled how people think it’s perfectly ok to dumb themselves down

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Religion is a worldview composed of "sacred" words and mental images which are imaginary meaning they exists only inside the human brain and not outside in the external world.

[@CutThroatJuggalo]

It's so much more refreshing when a theist calls in good faith.

[@bekzod3322]

I think he was trying to practice to answer to other people, I guess he is literally at deconverting

[@neolight1]

This was a fantastic debate. Love the water cycle analogy.

[@vincesnetterton5868]

ismail, like all religious apologists, changes the subject when losing

[@pastaapostle9388]

At least he didn't get butt-hurt and hung up

[@AchHadda]

I mean he saying idk when there's more probability of a first cause that caused the bigbang then denying it.

[@RTSOB1]

No Flying Spaghetti Monster....? Careful, Matt. Consider Pasqual's wager: Better to believe in the FSM than risk an eternity of existence in the boiling sea of marinara. Grasp His strand and walk together with Him through the Olive Garden, for there are endless bread sticks to be enjoyed. It's in the menu: Appetizers 1 Verse 6.

[@elliot7205]

The flying spaghetti monster is based on previous experience so is a redundant example! Try this! Think of something that does not exist without relying on prior knowledge?

[@hareofsteel]

100 bucks says the dislikers didn't bother to watch the video and have come here only to repeat the same crap that has been debunked on previous threads.

[@DJ-73]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@hareofsteel]

Oh and don't bother to comment , TONYA. Because as soon as you open your trap about morals, I'll post one of your anti-semitic rants or one of your racist diatribes. Hard to hide from your own big mouthed history, ain't it? Fuck, I love the internet!

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Yup, you'll find them loitering around the bottom somewhere

[@HotelierNYC]

An honest interlocutor! I love this guy.

[@Horus71]

Optimus Prime is god.

[@PhillipSmithstargazer]

That was a great call, I hope he calls again

[@tevtor1656]

Ismail is now an Atheist. He was just looking for affirmation. Lol. Great discussion...!

[@nikolajkapa2283]

Awesome caller. Grinding his mind in search.

[@mapleapple6891]

The irony: ATHEIST EXPERIENCE had experienced a peaceful discussion with a person from the most feared religion on the planet.

[@Wrkumlin]

steven neyt The vast majority - yes vast majority - of Muslims are peaceful. Just like the vast majority of Christians. The fundamentalists in any religion, those with a personality bent on extremism, control, and hate and violence, can find anything in any religious text, interpret it how they want to, and then apply it in a violent way to justify their belief. Look at the Westboro Baptist Church. They aren’t violent (yet) but they are extremely hateful and bigoted based on how they interpreted the bible - the so-called ‘good book’. Then there’s the Branch Davidians. Or Jimmy Jones. David Karesh and his followers turned violent towards the authorities. Jimmy Jones got hundreds to commit suicide, and killed those that didn’t want to. To make a comment like you did, without looking at all religious history, is to invoke confirmation bias and is just showing your bigotry, not your knowledge. Religion in general is about control. The Christians killed hundreds of thousands (entire cities?) in the name of their god, just for non-belief and non-conformance. They incited a witch hunt with no evidence of it being any kind of a problem (it was actually an attempt to bolster the ranks of the Catholic Church and get more followers - a marketing ploy). They promoted child sacrifice. They permitted slave owners to beat their slaves to within an inch of their lives. The only religion that is not violent in any way is the Jains. The only way they get deeper into their beliefs, i.e. more fundamentalist, is to be less and less violent. Killing an ant goes against their beliefs. Life is everything to them, no matter how insignificant it may appear. I don’t see that in any other religion. Even the current head of Scientology is an extremely aggressive, controlling, physically violent man against anyone that disagrees with him or goes against the church. Don’t be so self centred as to think Muslims are the ‘most feared’ (violent?) without checking into all religions first. While recent events have shown their (Muslims) darker side, even George Bush prayed to his Christian god before starting the gulf war. Maybe it wasn’t terrorism, but it was the killing of many for what was to turn out to be unfounded claims. Yup, George was just as much of an arrogant bully as anyone. And bullies work fear to their advantage. Time to do a little research before you make unfounded claims, those made out of ignorance rather than knowledge.

[@mapleapple6891]

@@Wrkumlin self centered? I don't think so because I am not a prophet nor a GOD. And about religion, I know all religions has it's dark side because all was created on dark agenda but showing the people the illusion of light. When I say "most feared religion on the planet" all because it is, and it's undeniable. "Vast majority of Muslims are peaceful" yes! I can agree with you on that...but I am taking about the religion, NOT THE PEOPLE.

[@mischarowe]

@@Wrkumlin If the vast majority of muslims are peaceful (which I do not believe), then you must be the minority.

[@paragonofvirtue270]

steven neyt : Islam is the most misunderstood religion on the planet ,can you show evidence to back your claim ?

[@mapleapple6891]

@@paragonofvirtue270 first of all I didn't see the word "misunderstood" in any of the comments here until you came in.... regardless if you are a muslim or not, it's you who misunderstood my comment. Because I am talking about islam, not the muslim...look, I understand that every single person on the planet is neutral. it's the religion or belief (no exception) or knowledge or whatever....made us what we are.

[@fitzmagic1]

What a fantastic conversation!

[@harveywabbit9541]

The Abrahamic religions are copied from far earlier myths and legends, thus none of the three is older than the others.

[@millabasset1710]

Asian religions are at least cooler and more creative.

[@frankwhelan1715]

@@millabasset1710 And not so fond of blood.

[@artist456]

They also over exaggerate those old stories. Gilgamesh's flood barely lasted a week.

[@millabasset1710]

@@frankwhelan1715 Hindu Goddess Durga is in my personal opinion the most OP deity humans have made. I'm of course excluding the Pluroma, the infinite energy source from the excluded Nag Hamaddi text which were excluded from the original Bible canon.

[@steveshepherd8921]

Brilliant ending Matt you hit the nail right on the head ( or did the nail hit the hammer ? Don't matter still brill ') 😁

[@optimusprime5199]

Ironic to see Christian ad before video. 😂😂😂

[@davidk7529]

They're supporting the channel with ad revenue, how ironic :P

[@optimusprime5199]

@@davidk7529 lol

[@ioanniskaraviotis4341]

@@davidk7529 god bless them hahah

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

As an ex- Muslim myself I can see that the caller is trapped in his assumptions , Prime mover doesn’t have to be a personal God , …. Then …..

[@2robdot]

They are again confusing the terms infinite,and eternal. Something can be infinite,and not eternal. Like the universe.

[@FizzVizard]

Exactly, infinity is a mathematical concept, it belongs to physical creation, the ultimate creator is beyond that, in a form way beyond our mental ability to envisage.

[@2robdot]

There is insufficient evidence to support any claim of an "ultimate creator".

[@FizzVizard]

@@2robdot Only if you dismiss everyone and everything as evidence.

[@2robdot]

If there were any evidence for a created,people wouldn't need faith. They would have evidence. But there is none. Zero. Nada.

[@2robdot]

If there was any evidence for any creator,this show wouldn't exist...duh.

[@ener5361]

I am an atheist, but respect for Ismail.

[@mowflexthesubnegro1846]

Flying Spaghetti Monster is the real deal though lol.

[@harveywabbit9541]

The Christian cross is the phallus and is copied from Egyptian myth. The Egyptian ankh represents the biblical Asherah or male and female united. "Pick up your penis and follow me."

[@MadTamB]

I dropped a coin a few months ago and it did land on the edge. (It spun a lot and that seemed to be relevant).

[@logicmonkey1034]

if you search "change my mind" or "steven Crowder change my mind" it doesnt show up

[@landrewmackinnon4888]

I'll skip googling that.

[@logicmonkey1034]

@@landrewmackinnon4888 ok puss

[@Timbales1979]

Logic Monkey Why exactly should we search that? I mean, how is it pertinent to the call?

[@landrewmackinnon4888]

@@Timbales1979 I think he is a Steven crowder advertiser.

[@logicmonkey1034]

@@Timbales1979 it isnt pertinent to the call whatsoever. Its to show youtube hiding varying opinions.

[@terolaitanen]

Finally a interesting conversation. Ofcourse the end result is the good old "I must have an answer, so I believe in prime mover" but the conversation itself had great examples and showd the weak points of an god argument very well.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

"I must have an answer", is the trap.

[@elliot7205]

Just establish wheather there is a creator or not iit is that simple.

[@casualnerd8139]

Actually, mathematically speaking, the two examples for infinity Matt gave here are the same size, as you can identify every element of the one set with an element of the other set. The set of real numbers though is demonstrably bigger, and gives a second, bigger infinity.

[@AlxMohun]

And you are comparing two infinities by a small subset of numbers, i don't understand how do you come to the conclusion that one can be bigger than the other based on that alone

[@casualnerd8139]

@@AlxMohun Well, you can identify every natural number with an element from the real numbers (easy, just use themselfes as they are part of the real numbers), but you can not identify every real number with a natural number (proven, you can easily find the proof). So the real number infinity is demonstrated to be bigger.

[@AlxMohun]

@@casualnerd8139 Yeah ok, im too stupid for this or there is a loophole in there somewhere. Either way i don't really get it :D.

[@cobalius]

I love how Matt teaches him about his religion😂 aw man, i live for that

[@bidenhasdementia8657]

Cause of terrorism below. "Quran 9;29, "Fight that who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibited what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiorty and they are in a state of subjection.". Quran(3:151)"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". Quran (9:123) "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness." Quran( 17:16) "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Quran (25:52)" "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness with it." Quran (33: 60-62)"If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease (evil desire for adultery, etc.), and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbors but a little while Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter." Quran (47:3-4) "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." Quran (47:35) "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you," Quran (48:17) "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Quran(48:29) "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Quran(61:4) "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His cause" Quran(61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of'Adn- Eternity ['Adn(Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success. Quran(66:9) "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." Quran(3:56) "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Quran(4:74)"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

[@paragonofvirtue270]

Obama Colluded With Putin : congratulation on your ability to google anti-Islam sources .do your own reading before you put your ignorance on parade try to remember that there are a lot of Muslims who know their book but ignore your stupidity ,you don’t think that we know our scripture ? 2:190 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. 9:4 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. 60:8 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. 60:9 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

[@bidenhasdementia8657]

@Fanny Smith I've heard that diversion before,, "read it in arabic". And those texts are actual incitements to violence ordained by the quran. Which happen to be the direct cause of global Islamic extremism.

[@bidenhasdementia8657]

@Fanny Smith lol!!! I knew it was coming "Those texts are only for self defense against the agressor". Of course they'd never be used as a pretext for religiously motivated violence. Noooo. It's not like extremists would say they are in a constant state of war that according to the texts justifies violence,,, nooo. When I read the new testament years after reading the quran texts like these shocked me. After reading the quran I didn't expect to find this in the new testament. "Matthew 5:43 - Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy." "Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" "Romans 12:20 - Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." Luke 6:27 - But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you" "Romans 12:14 - Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not." "Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" "Matthew 5:38-39 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

[@paragonofvirtue270]

Thanos Mighty : define hate ? SAHIH INTERNATIONAL002.177 Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. 2:280 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL And if someone is in hardship, then [let there be] postponement until [a time of] ease. But if you give [from your right as] charity, then it is better for you, if you only knew. 4:036 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful. SAHIH INTERNATIONAL009.060 Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

[@paragonofvirtue270]

Obama Colluded With Putin : love your enemy the Bible says . Psalm 137:9 Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock! Happy? The word here could also be translated as “blessed.” Imagine a soldier coming home from a day of baby-smashing. His wife greets him at the door with a kiss. “So how was your day, honey?” she says. “Great! God was really at work in me today! I got to smash babies against a rock wall! We all praised God as we did it. The Spirit was really moving! I must have killed ten or twelve, but that Joash, he got over twenty! He’s a beast! The best part is that now we are going to be blessed because of all the babies we killed. I’m standing on the promises of God!” This is your shit holy bible .

[@zendavesta1027]

28:12 I think this is a very important lesson, something I’ve been thinking about for a long time. We agree on many things with theists but somehow a god is a “special treat”.

[@adf999]

How dare you say that that FSM isn't real!

[@theaviationist.5719]

My feelings are absolutely hurt too.. The FSM gave his life for us to have Pasta, Macaroni cheese, Spagetti bolognese etc.. The FSM died for our hunger... Sad that religious people don't want to acknowledge his love and sacrifice..

[@Josiah_Cornett]

A better example from the one Matt gave about infinity is countable infinity vs uncountable infinity. The examples you gave were countably infinite. Positive and negative integers. However, there is an even better parallel to the arrow that has to move halfway then halfway again. Uncountable infinity. An example of that is the set of real numbers between 0 and 5. The number of real numbers between 0 and 5 is uncountably infinite. That is, you can pick a real number as close to 5 as you want, but there is always a real number that is infinitesimally closer to whatever your target is. And yet, we know that the target, 5 in this case, is still a part of the set. Time, could be viewed that way. You could say there cannot be an infinite regress because you would never get to now, and yet we know that now exists and every point which is equally a part of the set in the past would have the exact same view of it. There may be an infinite number of moments, but they are all part of the set.

[@Puleczech]

This was really good.

[@plexus]

Is that why there’s a jar of gumballs back there? Lol! :D

[@sirela7915]

I believe so, yes

[@markevens]

fantastic call

[@hendrikdaendels9667]

No need for Matt to insult Pastafarians by saying their religion is fake. The Flying Spaghetti Monster (Sauce Be Upon Him) takes blasphemy very serious. He often punish blasphemers with the 7 years scrotum itch. Matt is warned. Pipe down or scratch.

[@johnbee3416]

Hahahahaha

[@johnbee3416]

Praise be to cheeses! In the name of the Fava, The Bun, and the Holy Loaf R'amen

[@bronsoncarder2491]

Er... So, what you described were Uncountable Infinite numbers, but your example (the set of all positive integers) was about Countable Infinite numbers. And, also, some of your claims there were a little off. You can actually mathematically prove that the set of all positive integers is smaller than the set of all positive and negative integers. And these are MUCH smaller than the set of all numbers between 0 and 1 (an uncountable infinite). And there are MUCH larger infinite's than that. If anyone is curious about this subject, I HIGHLY recommend ViHart's video on Aleph Null. Fascinating stuff.

[@ayzaiabzyss7592]

Just for reference, there are different sizes of infinity. you can look up Large Cardinals to get more info, but the set of counting numbers has a cardinality (which is a measure of its size) and the real numbers (which is the set of all numbers/points on the real number line) has another, larger cardinality. the set of real numbers literally (and not the "figuratively" use of literally ha ha) contains more elements than the set of counting numbers. while the positive whole numbers and negative whole numbers have the same number of elements as the positive and negative whole numbers together, there are an infinite number of different sizes of infinity-some of which cannot be compared in size to other infinities (if you like the axiom of choice).

[@markhepworth4804]

Now this is what I call a debate! 👏

[@IterativeTheoryRocks]

Regarding infinities - best to look up cantor. The size of the infinity of all positive and negative numbers is the same as just the positives, or just the negatives. This infinity is called ‘countably infinite’.

[@Reashu]

The set of "negative and positive integers" is the same size as the sets of "negative integers" and "positive integers". Go with the set of "real numbers" vs the set of "integers" next time! Nice call though.

[@laurendibiase3856]

Thank you.

[@JoshuaWillis89]

The set of all real numbers from 0 to 0.0000000001 is actually great than the entire set of integers from negative infinity to positive infinity, but the set of all integers from negative infinity to positive infinity is equal to the set of all positive even integers. Infinity is counterintuitive, but it’s an abstract concept, like Matt said. We know that time cannot be broken down into ever smaller units, because of Planck, so it does stand to reason that time is finite. However, the existence of a prime mover actually mandates an infinite regress, so I’m not sure what his argument actually is.

[@allahkabaap2336]

The caller's personal reasons to be religious might just be the fear of being beheaded if he becomes an apostate. Very common in these parts of the world where Islam is practiced.

[@Enjoymentboy]

Perhaps I am wrong here but what I have noticed from theists when asked why they believe in what they do the general root answer seems to be "Because I am too afraid not to". It seems they are afraid of any negative repercussions that they may have to suffer. They seem to be so afraid of this being all there is that they cannot accept it. So many people when confronted with the end of their lives feel regret for all that they were too afraid to do or try. But if they can mitigate that fear with an afterlife then there is no reason to fear or regret that which was missed out on as they will have another chance at it. Heaven appears to be the greatest "do over" ever conceived and that is just the height of laziness and arrogance.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

They normally tell you 'what' they believe not 'why' they believe it

[@neilh8170]

A version of this argument keeps coming up on the show recently, Alejandro with Jim and Dave, March 2021