It's (Still) OK to Lie to Your Kids about Santa

[@Spiral.Dynamics]

I never lied to my kids about Santa. Growing up poor you get the idea that you were naughty because you don’t get what you asked for, year after year.

[@Martial-Mat]

Hear hear. Excellent point. Also, I noticed "santa" played favourites even within our household.

[@Robert_McGarry_Poems]

Hits hard when you realize why you don't get the same things other people get... like fond memories.

[@ScottLuvsRenFaires]

In our house, Santa never provided big presents, he only filled the stockings. So, Santa provided small toys, a little bit of candy, and toothbrushes. I don't think I ever sat in Santa's lap and asked him for stuff.

[@syntext]

Totally fair. I think my mom was crushed the year our dad left and I asked her on Christmas why my best friend got so many more presents than me from Santa that year.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

That part should just get left out because actually backing it up seems almost abusive. And like it's the intent that will hurt them the most. And then they realize it was their parents that did that to them and not just some guy.

[@SuperNicktendo]

When I was a kid we would celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve and around 7pm my grandpa would go and take a nap. We would then sing Christmas songs until Santa would come to our house and hand out presents to everyone! After he was finished he would leave and go about his way on to the next house. After he left my grandpa would wake up from his nap and we would tell him how he just missed Santa Claus and he would be upset about it every year. Eventually I did see the suit in the back of our van and put two and two together but I wasn't disappointed or betrayed that my grandfather played Santa and actually played along with the game until he was finally too old to do it. One of my favorite memories of my life.

[@emiiii]

Reading your story made me tear up a little 🥹

[@RealBradMiller]

😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@stevechance150]

I... just... have, something got in my eye.

[@rainpooper7088]

My dad did that too, only that he pretended to go to the dentist. On Christmas Eve. And Santa wore dad's shoes and wedding ring. Yeah, I had figured it out by the time I was six, but he still kept doing it every year even when I was a teenager.

[@2jr00]

Once you are in on it and joining in the game, could it be considered kayfabe

[@Aphoboth]

"If you're a kid don't watch this, go watch sexual Disney things" Nailed it. Innocence saved. hahahahaha

[@lulu_9000]

While dropping an f-bomb in the same breath to boot. Well, she did warn us, lol. 11/10. No notes.

[@KattReen]

I'm autistic, and as far as I know the constant lying to both children and adults is how you can tell someone is neurotypical(I'm kidding, but really though...) Trying to make me believe in Santa was an annoying effort on my mom's part, I felt infantilized even as a very young child lmao. Credit where it's due, she DID manage to make me believe that SHE believed in Santa, because I remember trying to explain to her that it's just a fictional character from stories and television. My mother could not appreciate having very perceptive four or five year old, and her persistence was really annoying. To this day she tries to edit history and insist she definitely had me fooled and that every christmas was one of childlike wonder. I have a tendency to die on every hill, so I truly have to take deep breaths and try to remind myself that it is okay to just allow her to be wrong. I think the reason some kids are so devastated over the lie is because some parents have made Santa such a massive production. It's not just cookies mysteriously disappearing, , or presents mysteriously appearing... It's sometimes on the level of that millennial birthday week level shit with a Santa Claus extended universe. When the jig is up it's not just a myth busted, but someone single digit in age having to deconstruct their entire relationship both to their trust in their parents and their relationship to the holiday. Leave it a vague and fun mystery, and the kids will figure it out on their own. Don't catfish your kid with Santa.

[@EdwardLindon]

Oh my god, dit-fucking-to!

[@angelicasmodel]

That's interesting what you say about NT vs ND kids. My little one is ND, and she has no scepticism about Santa. It possibly makes a difference that as far as I'm concerned, the spirit of Santa is real, so therefore Santa is real. 😊

[@angelacarstensen]

If my parents had told me the presents were from Santa and I had found out (which would have been inevitable), I would have seen this as a breach of trust and lying and not taking me seriously. Glad they never did. You saying it might have something to do with neurodivergence sounds interesting. I never got why people around me defended the Santa adamantly and thought I was a sad person who didn't get the magic of the season. I do. I love the whole Yule thing, I even love songs and fairy tales about Santa. I just don't like the dishonesty and making children afraid and making them behave just because they want presents. Does this make me sound not neurotypical?

[@marocat4749]

God the point is to play along, not force it :(

[@jeffersonclippership2588]

NTs are dishonest, you can say it

[@petelarson4239]

Remember kids, it’s illegal to drive with the dome light on.

[@Altres]

One set of ads this time. Must have been an aberration. Looking forward to watching more of your work. 🤩👍

[@Kimmaline]

Okay, so one day when my daughter was six I was in the shower, and the door flies open and she comes stomping in. She crosses her arms, fixes me with a stern face, and says, "Mama, you're actually the Easter Bunny, aren't you?" I was trying desperately to get us out of an abusive situation with her dad and promised myself I wouldn't ever lie to a direct question, and her raw indignancy and crossed arms was frikkin cute as hell, so I maintained a straight face and said, "yeah, Maggie. I am. You got me." "See, I knew it. I've been thinking about that for a while." And she leaves the bathroom. About 90sec later the door to the bathroom flies open again, this time so hard it bangs into the wall. "THE TOOTH FAIRY TOO?!?!?!?" 🤣🤣🤣 I discovered that whether you want to do Santa or not, other people do it for you. "Oh, are you excited about Santa coming?" and "What did Santa bring you?" "Eight more days until Santa comes!!!" from the time they can barely speak. My daughter obviously weighted my opinion and statements far higher than other people's, which always made me nervous about lying. But lemme tell you, I've raised her to be so skeptical about crap other people tell her or things on the internet that she will read something historical and come to me and say, "I'm sure this is crap, but it's such a cool story so I wanted to ask you what you know about it." (Teaching them media literacy is truly not that hard, tho mine is a little weird feminist leftist freak because of my job. She's always been steeped in it since so many of her aunties are basically professional feminists.) My actual issue with Santa is inequality, mainly of the systemic sort. My daughter's elementary school was about half kids in million-and-a-half-plus houses, and half kids in low income apartments (go Marin!) I thought it was an interesting microcosm to study, and it got the school funding that most low income kids would never have access to. But here is the thing. The rich kids had FAR more extravagant Christmases than the lower income kids, plus there were some parents who just didn't believe in giving kids very much while other parents lived it up. But to these kids, it felt very much as though Santa was favoring some of them over the others for some really inexplicable reasons. Sure. Kids need to learn that the world is unfair. But some of these lower income kids were struggling with less than ideal home lives already, they had already dropping self-esteem, and listening to the super cool presents Santa brought their friends, but not them, really just drove home the point that they weren't worth as much. It made me so sad. Especially for the kids who had one or more undocumented parents, they already felt like they didn't fit in....yeah. It sucked. I combatted this by telling my daughter that you had to order things through Santa and pay for them, it's just that most parents keep that part a secret. I wish more parents would use this narrative because it allows you to do what you want for Xmas without making less financially advantaged kids feel left out.

[@jinxed7915]

Honestly I came in thinking, worried even, that the video was gonna touch on the inequality side of things, which actually IS a pretty compelling reason not to lie to your children about Santa, but I was pleasantly surprised at the actual topic of the video

[@ollie2111]

Marin? Is that referencing finland? :)

[@dwc1964]

When someone says they're from Marin, ask "Marin City?" and watch the reaction

[@dwc1964]

@@ollie2111 Marin County - across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco

[@Kimmaline]

@@dwc1964 lol, I grew up in Marin, but I definitely did NOT come from money. I was largely raised by my grandparents; my Pops was a firefighter in the city. They bought a house at 35th and Taraval in the early 50s on the VA loan my Pops had from being a WWII medic, and sold it 20yrs later to buy a house in Marin on my Gram's VA loan from being a nurse in WWII (that's how they met, they ended up stationed at the same hospital.) A friend who knew them our entire childhoods used to say that they weren't just old school, they were old school for being old school. Tho Gram was hella progressive. She'd sneak into my room and put lotion on my back tat for me in college, and never dimed me out when she found my smokes. 😆 It was WILD going to high school in Marin with all these kids driving Daddy's Mercedes or Benz and taking "ski week" in February. My Dad was a professional rock musician, I was the first person at my high school to take someone of the same gender as their date to Senior Prom--to say I didn't fit here in is a massive understatement. My soon-to-be-ex and I always said that we wanted out of here before our daughter was a teen simply because of my experience in high school--though northern Marin has become increasingly blue collar and that is reflected in her peer group. She has some amazing friends, they all call me Mother, and only two of them cone from stereotypical "Marin" backgrounds. Regardless, I'm out of here the second my court case is over and I can be; we're moving to the midwest. My lawyer is pretty confident I will be granted full custody--the Bay Area used to represent safety and peace and was this precious sanctuary in my childhood. Now it is utterly drowning in trauma and grief and awful memories for both Maggie and me. It's a lovely place in a lot of ways, but I can't wait to leave and never come back.

[@tobybartels8426]

I never lied to my kids about Santa. I told them early on that I'm Santa, and they didn't believe me!

[@caseyw.6550]

😂😂😂

[@jaysmith7062]

That happened to us too!

[@FrozEnbyWolf150-b9t]

My mother did the same thing. She told us early on that Santa was actually her sister who had been sending us the presents, and that we should write our thank you letters to her. So that's what we did. I was five, so I was mildly upset, but I quickly got over it, and was grateful in the end that I knew the truth when other kids maybe didn't.

[@bcwbcw3741]

The earliest I remember about Santa was that it was this "let's all pretend" game where we all (kids and parents) would pretend together that Santa was real but had the advantage we could sneak down and eat the "cookies for Santa."

[@salyx]

I have always loved Santa. My parents were really into it and my sister and I had stars in our eyes over it. I can’t even remember what prompted me to ask my mom about the reality of Santa, but she said: “Santa is the spirit of giving just to make someone else happy. So any time you give to someone out of the goodness of your heart, that’s Santa.” I’m 44 years old and still believe in Santa, because I see that spirit of giving.

[@RebeccaWatson]

That's how my dad put it to me! Love it.

[@katrinabryce]

Santa does actually represent a real historical person who gave gifts to poor children to prevent them from being sold into sex work.

[@TheodoreWeiser]

​@katrinabryce I'm glad Ranken/Bass didn't make a special with that script

[@SeanPorterPDX]

I’m stealing this for my youngest who still believes (although I think he has suspicions, lol)

[@salyx]

@@SeanPorterPDX good! Keep that spirit alive.

[@ilmarimujunen9180]

If the lie of Santa helped grow kids in to critically thinking adults, we should have way more critical thinkers. Or perhaps they just forget everything they learn.

[@Broken_robot1986]

I know I didn't. I feel strongly that my mom telling me I have a guardian angel instilled in me a life long distrust of authority when it dawned on me that it's probably not true after another kid made fun of me for bringing it up.

[@jprice_]

If the current populations critical thinking is bolstered by this single childhood lie, imagine the state of the society without it.

[@larissabrglum3856]

For me, finding out Santa wasn't real was major for me questioning the existence a different supernatural man with a beard, but for some reason that doesn't seem to be the case for most

[@ladymacbethofmtsensk]

@@larissabrglum3856it was the opposite experience for me. My parents were always devout Christians (my mum’s now a weird bigoted zealot on top of it) and they tried hard to instil religious values in me, but on the other hand they told me from the get go that Santa wasn’t real and that he was invented to bribe children into being good. They just asked me what I wanted every Christmas lol. And then they were super surprised when I got older and started asking ‘what if God isn’t real and he was just invented to threaten people into accepting the status quo?’

[@jinxed7915]

It's not that lying about Santa doesn't help kids with critical thinking skills, it's that critical thinking is something that needs to be fostered continuously, and unfortunately *cough* one party in the US is actively against that.

[@SometimestheY]

We have a teen and a tween. Santa has always visited our house--leaving just a couple small fun things and notes for the kids--but when they got old enough to start questioning if he was real (like noticing that mom's handwriting, despite my best efforts, seemed to share some commonalities with Santa's...), we didn't exactly lie in our responses so much as give kind of tongue-in-cheek, vague answers, leaving it open for them to figure out. When our oldest was 10 or 11, we all came downstairs Christmas morning to delightedly discover we had also been visited by "Tiny Santa": she had woken up before all of us to surprise everyone, adding extra decorations and little handmade gifts and notes, on top of those already left by me as official "Santa." She figured it out, and just jumped on in and added to the magic. Amazing. Tiny Santa and I now stuff stockings together after her little bro and younger cousins have gone to bed on Christmas Eve.

[@SometimestheY]

...Side note: "Tiny" Santa is now multiple inches taller than this original Santa.

[@neea8807]

That's adorable!

[@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx]

What a fine daughter you raised.

[@digitaljanus]

When our twins were born we read other atheist/agnostic/skeptical parents' approaches towards Santa. We ultimately decided that we would just put out Santa presents and play along until our kids directly asked us, then would come clean. It felt like a good way to encourage inquisitiveness and skepticism. Our kids had other plans, since they were terrified of Santa almost immediately. As infants their Santa pictures are just them wailing, and as soon as they were old enough to articulate their fear, our one child especially expressed extreme anxiousness towards Santa. (And this was during COVID, so Santa mall appearances were restricted anyway.) So we came clean early. But we did tell them not to ruin the surprise for other children, and as far as we know they did so. They are avid readers though, and love fantasy stories, while still displaying a healthy level of curiosity and skepticism so thus far we have no major concerns. But Elf on the Shelf is a narc and has no place in our house.

[@ksol-px2sl]

I find Elf on a Shelf creepy beyond belief

[@angelicasmodel]

My little one loves Santa, but she's not great with visiting him. The last couple of years we've sent him a letter instead. Last year the phone company had a Santa hotline set up, so she got to have a chat with him too. That was a real treat.

[@marocat4749]

i know here thre , yeah santa is takin g a lot culturally over but it was traditional a christ child thingy thats more like a child angely thing that does it, w, yeah santa is kinda creepy anyways thats i think the one way, if they figure it out till then go along.

[@DecemberDaydreams]

Elf on the shelf is a real thing??

[@nebuloushammer8773]

My cousins were wealthier than my family and I never understood why Santa gave so many gifts to them. Were they really that much better than me? When I realized that my parents were the real Santa, that was one of the most beautiful moments of my life. I can't wait to be the Santa for my kids. There was one moment when I learned to be skeptical of authority figures when I was in kindergarten. I was playing with a toy and another kid wanted it. The other kid bit himself on the arm and framed me for it. I was taken to the principles office and spanked with a meter stick. I will never forget that feeling of confusion, pain, and realizing how stupid adults can be.

[@j8000]

That kid had better be a CEO and/or in prison today.

[@allideni836]

To be honest, the kind of shit you (and I) went through is a huge reason why I am never having children.

[@califsherry]

Did no one come to your defense? They should have. I’m angry on your behalf.

[@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx]

Which principles did that office teach you? That the world is unfair so get used to it?

[@xalaxie]

that kid dayum...that is some sociopath level subterfuge

[@whatcanidooo]

I disagree. I think it primes kids’ brains to fundamentally misunderstand how reality works and breaks their trust. My siblings and I are the only people we know who feel fundamentally unable to believe in anything supernatural. I think it is because we were raised never being lied to. We were allowed to play pretend and did constantly, but we were always taught the difference. It saves me so much trouble not to have to be afraid of ghosts and shit. It’s very normalized for adults to believe in magic, I’ve noticed. It often feels very unhealthy and I’m glad my parents didn’t prime me for it like most parents do

[@GameTimeWhy]

Yeah this is a really poorly done study.

[@chrisrubin6445]

cant believe more people arent realizing this and are just glazing the conservative upkeep of harmful traditions

[@lynnsibley1172]

I'm a skeptical atheist who was raised with Santa, as are my siblings. Santa was fun, and my parents would have absolutely told the truth if we'd asked them direct questions, but we liked the magic too. But they also taught us critical thinking skills and primed us to look at the world with a thoughtful eye. It doesn't have to be either or. You can have childhood magic without it ruining your ability to think. As a dear friend said, he feels obligated to lightly tease and tell silly white lies to his grandchildren and help them figure out that not everything he says is true- because that's what helps them question things and listen carefully to what people are saying.

[@Ruben99677]

@@GameTimeWhy what?

[@teletubbiestunetwister9570]

My issue with the lie about Santa is that it's used to threaten kids about their behavior. The "someone can see you all the time" like god stuff is the trouble.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

Coal is just the Santa version of hell. You can honestly leave it out. If you are gonna do it at all.

[@jasonpatterson8091]

There are so, so many opportunities to teach your children about critical thinking and looking for evidence in life that you don't need to invent one. Additionally, this provides an excellent opportunity for teaching your kids about kindness and consideration in the face of absurdity. Getting a four year old not to shout that Santa is a lie in preschool? That required work.

[@userasdf]

Agreed. Sure i want them to distrust authority figures and the internet. I dont want them to distrust ME. At least that i wouldnt lie to them intentionally. They should eventually Iearn i could be wrong unintentionally. Thats healthy. But learning your parents are lying scumbags sucks…

[@FiercelyGold]

I totally agree. My child's best friend believes in Santa, and my kid simply says he thinks Santa is creepy. I refuse to lie to my kid and I expect him to never lie to me in return. And out of all the lies, why would I prop up Santa? Santa spoils the rich and neglects the poor. He's a white old hetero cis man that thinks he should be in charge forever. He bribes children to sit on his lap. He breaks into homes, and watches children at all times to judge them. Every man playing Santa is a liar. Every man playing Santa is encouraging lying and preying on children's naivety and eagerness to be loved and seen/heard by adults.

[@isaacgates5859]

Absolutely agree. My mom (for all her faults) didn't lie to me about Santa. I was well aware he wasn't real from a young age. But my mom being a scientifically minded woman, taught me about how differentiate from reality and fiction, and that has been an endlessly useful skill to have.

[@deevnn]

It's never smart to lie to your children even if everyone else is doing it. Your children need to know that they can trust you.

[@gapsule2326]

This is why you need at least two parents so one parent can only tell lies and one can only tell truths forcing kids to unravel the riddle and pass the gate of knowledge.

[@carultch]

"What would the other parent tell me?"

[@Tubular1845]

I don't lie to my kids about Santa and they don't seem to enjoy Christmas any less than I did as a kid.

[@MidnightMiik]

My mom just told me Santa wasn’t real before I figured it out on my own. It made me distrustful of authority and adults in general. It was shortly after the big reveal that I found myself in Sunday school being told some Bible story by the Sunday school teacher and I raised my hand and asked “How do you know that’s true?” The teacher said, “Because it says so in the Bible?” Confused, I asked, “How do you know the Bible is true” The teacher said, “Because it’s the word of God.” Me: “How do you know it’s the word of God?” Teacher: “Because it says so in the Bible.” Right then my juvenile bullshit meter started flashing red. To this day, I’m shocked at how many people believe the Bible is the actual word of God and not just a bunch of crap some dead guys made up a long time ago.

[@SnoFitzroy]

FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT 😭

[@AilinaHavalii]

As a (childfree but involved) aunt in a heavily neurospicy family, this has me wondering: do these results hold for neurodivergent children? Just anecdotally, I strongly suspect that my autistic niece (5, hyperverbal, incredibly smart but has a notable difficulty reading social cues and does not react well to gentle teasing because she can't tell when people are serious or joking, e.g. reacts with extreme distress to "hi tired, I'm dad" because her name isn't "tired" and why is her dad getting that wrong, etc) would produce very different results in several of these studies. How kids on the spectrum trust authorities, model reality, and incorporate new information tend to be notably different from neurotypical kids. It'd be neat if these studies ended with a 10 minute or so mini-battery for salient indicators of neurodiversity, obviously not for diagnostic purposes but just to see whether there are any patterns that strongly go against the general conclusion and which might suggest whether further research is warranted.

[@nickneal3955]

I absolutely agree here. I think nuerodivergent kids need to be tested more often as well in studies because we can have extremely different reactions. I had very negative reactions to my parents lies and my brother didn't, for example. He's nuerotypical.

[@SfromWisconsin]

In my experience with neurodivergent kids, they will fight against silly beliefs sooner and stronger until they realize how "believing" in it benefits them. Then, they'll become the last kids to stop believing. It would be neat for a study to research whether this is generally true of neurodivergent kids. Some neurodivergent kids will even choose to help adults continue the magic for younger kids in their family and community. ❤

[@readerjoy]

I was a die hard true believer in Santa past the age when many give it up. A lunch lady in the school cafeteria heard me defending Santa to a more skeptical fellow second grader (7 year old). She weighed in against Santa and I was indignant. At our house, we got presents from our parents which would be wrapped and another, bigger, present from Santa which was never wrapped. Besides which, he always ate the cookies and drank the milk we left out for him! I played Santa for my own kids but they never bought it. My parents had better skills, I guess.

[@neea8807]

I don't think it's a skill issue, kids are just like that. I know some children who's parents don't do Santa nor Christmas (for religious reasons most of the time) and a bunch of them still believe, while other who where fed the whole narrative never did.

[@veganbatman]

i have a friend with 2 children. the oldest at 5yo asked point blank if santa was real, made them swear they agenwerent lying, and would not let them leave the conversation until they admitted he wasn't (thenwentontotell their wholeclass which they were expressly told not to do. oops.) the younger is 8yo and still believes in Santa/loves christmas magic. I think some of it comes down to temperament.

[@paulkinzer7661]

My biggest beef with the whole Santa thing is not so much that it's a lie, but that whole 'making a list and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice.' 'You'd better be good or you'll get a lump of coal.' As a parent, and a director of a childcare center, I went for the 'you should do what's right because it makes everyone involved happier' rationale. Our son was not normal. Not to brag, but just to be honest, he was kind of off the charts when it came to learning and critical thinking. He let us know when he thought something was bogus from the time he could express it. He LIKED fantastical stories when he was really young (before about age 6 or 7), I think primarily because the fantastic bits were bizarre or silly. Like elves or goblins or god. I used to tell him at least one made-up story, often based on fictional characters we'd seen in books, at least once a day, from when he was around two till he was around seven. It was often a pretty big part of the day for both of us, and we both loved getting into the weeds of these made-up worlds. Until one day, when he just said, 'Papa, I don't want to do this anymore'. He explained that the real world was enough for him, and made up stuff about talking animals doing impossible things just had no appeal anymore. He's 23 now, and still hasn't grown out of this.

[@ladymacbethofmtsensk]

Man and I thought magic and fantastical storytelling elements just didn’t hit anymore because I’m depressed and studying biochemistry made me a miserable pedant lol. You mean for me to suspend my disbelief and accept clearly impractical fantasy and sci fi concepts when I’ve been primed for years to tear apart the slightest inconsistency in otherwise excellent quality research, and constantly evaluate the feasibility of ideas against our current scientific capabilities? I thought that was just me losing my imagination due to mental illness.

[@Estarile]

I mean true, but sometimes you just need to threaten the out of control second graders that you *will* be calling Santa if they don't start behaving.

[@CatarinaStone]

as someone who blieved in santa until quite late (9) I really don't look back on it as having been betrayed by my parents/grownups at all. I have fond memories of christmas when I was really young

[@caseyw.6550]

Girl, I think I believed until I was 11 or 12. Lol! My sweet grandpa (rip) was driving me to the store one day before Christmas and said "you don't still believe that crap, do you?" I was like ".....pffft! No!" Crying on the inside but played it cool. 😆😆

[@SkyeSoleil]

@@caseyw.6550 I also believed in Santa until around 11 or 12. I only stopped when I found a present I had left for Santa in my parents’s closet a few months after Christmas 😶

[@acemorris6535]

I don’t think 9 is late, when I was 14/15 I told a friend I had classes with how sad I was I never got to believe in Santa and she responded with “Santa’s not real?” completely seriously. 10-12 seems to be a pretty normal age to learn the truth

[@CatarinaStone]

@@acemorris6535 I mean, it was late in my class! I remember getting into an argument over it with my classmates just before christmas break, my teacher staying judiciously silent. Also, I have a large extended famiily and there was someone dressed up as stanta actually handing us the presents, which was a VERY compelling point for santa's existence

[@rainbowkrampus]

Same, well not the age thing. I saw my dad putting presents under the tree sometime around 5-6 and went, "Oh, well I guess Santa isn't real." And that was the end of that. But I was never like, resentful about it. Frankly I don't recall being much phased by it at all. I'm kinda surprised to see people wringing their hands about it in the comments. As though finding out Santa isn't real is some kind of super villain origin narrative or something.

[@muppetist]

When I was little and starting to get a little skeptical of Santa Claus, I made sure to write my Christmas letter without my parents around, and not mention to them the things I had asked for in the letter. Come Christmas I would see whether Santa had gotten me things from the letter, or only things I'd talked about to my parents. Years later my mom told me that I forgot to seal the letter and left it open on the kitchen table where she found it and read it.

[@thedave1771]

Kids are dumb, which makes parenting way *way* easier. I’m in the “don’t lie to your kids” camp, but that doesn’t mean you need to show all your cards either.

[@munster355]

​@@thedave1771 "I taught you everything you know, not everything *I* know"

[@danmerget]

I think this video omits an important step: when should parents STOP lying? If the goal is to encourage kids to be skeptical at a young age, then they need to reveal the truth while the kids are still fairly young, before they start blindly believing in authority figures. Looking at the comments, most people here found out around age 7. But that's the experience of an audience of skeptics. I grew up in southeast Wisconsin, which Gallup indicates has "above average" religiosity (and presumably below-average skepticism), and adults stretched out the lie until we were around 4th grade (i.e. around 9-10 years old). Whenever I asked skeptical questions, they doubled down and confidently fabricated whatever they could think of to quell my doubts. The main reason I remember it ended in 4th grade is because my grade school divided grades 1-4 into a separate wing, and in my last year in that wing, the class bully suddenly began lashing out at other students in a peculiar way. He'd stop everyone he met and angrily say things like "Do you believe in Santa? You're so stupid! Santa and the Tooth Fairy are all lies and you're an idiot for believing in them!" That lasted for several days, maybe even a week, and I'm pretty certain that the reason he was so salty was because he had just found out. My mom had told me a few weeks earlier, and I recognized the sentiment. If he hadn't single-handedly revealed the truth to so many classmates, I suspect some of them would've kept believing until early puberty.

[@lindensalter6713]

This is a very important aspect I wish was addressed in the video. There are so many ways to go about Santa that of course some ways do in fact have t be more harmful than beneficial

[@mizotter]

I was an evangelical when I had my first child; I was deconstructing a few months into my second child's life and attending uni for Literature major, Drama/Theater for the Young minor, & Secondary education. Suffering from religious trauma, I was very concerned that lying to my children would undermine their trust in me as the clergy's lies undermined my trust in them when I discovered I'd been fooled into a LOT of suffering and unpaid labor as a trad wife & church member. Mom & sisters loved the Santa schtick, and I wanted my kids to be able to enjoy it with the family. When they asked, I explained the Santa stuff as an extended "Let's Pretend" game based on storybook characters that many people enjoy playing. Like Halloween, it has decorations and costumes and lots of fun stories and traditions that people like to do. Both holidays are like a play, where each person decides which roles they want and whether/how much costuming they want to do. Looking back on this strategy, I am pleased that it allowed my kids to see costuming & role-play as signals of pretending, which they easily applied to religious activities. I am lucky that the coursework I was engaged in provided an answer that allowed me to be honest with the kids in a way that let them enjoy Santa & didn't upset my family. My children never fell under the religious spell. A few years back, when they were in their 30s, we were at their paternal Grandma's funeral. They were in the front row; I was at the back of the room. I was proud to see that when the minister started asking mourners to "bow your heads & close your eyes" for his coercive altar call, my children sat bolt upright, eyes open. Clergy tried repeating instructions to no avail. Finally, he went on with his game of pretend under their unwavering gaze as I looked on with pride and relief!

[@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx]

Now _that_ is great parenting.

[@mizotter]

@@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx Thank you!

[@xianicarus8770]

Wait... you're telling me the Candy Witch isn't real?

[@RebeccaWatson]

Well I haven't seen solid evidence that she isn't so it's best to keep an open mind!

[@pablodelsegundo9502]

Sure she is! She's Bubble Witch's curvier, older sister.

[@digitaljanus]

Only in Italy. Her name is La Befana and she shows up on Epiphany.

[@jmrm01]

Yes, @xianicarus, there is a Candy Witch. She exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! How dreary would be the world if there were no Candy Witch. It would be as dreary as if there were no @xianicarus.

[@Quintus468]

One thing that I did find bewildering as a kid was when my agemates acted like the rando dressed in a Santa getup was actual Santa. Like, no? That's clearly some guy in a costume! Why would REAL Santa be in my preschool? Or my mall? He doesn't have time for that! And why ours specifically? And why is his coat made of cheapo pilled Walmart polyester? Get it together, guys, Santa is at the North Pole. You're not gonna meet Santa because Santa is not meetable. He takes your cookies and leaves presents while you sleep. That's his gig. This is a guy playacting for some purpose I'm not really clear on.

[@ADHJkvsNgsMBbTQe]

It’s possible to nurture critical thinking skills without betrayal.

[@gonzothegreat1317]

I like it that we fool them with Santa. Makes it so much easier to convince them later that belief in God is something similar as believing in Santa.

[@RebeccaWatson]

Yepppppp

[@ThomasOlges]

This idea is neat in principal, but, like, the number of kids who found out Santa wasn't real and then continued to believe in God is waaaaaaaay higher than the number who made that connection.

[@ArguableDish137]

It's breeding ground for other BS beliefs like "the paranormal", God or meritocracy

[@mags9806]

kind of a reverse Hogfather

[@telpewen]

This is exactly why my religious parents never lied about Santa. They figured if they lied to me about Santa, someday I'd conclude they were lying about God.

[@w0ody16]

I started this video strongly inclined to disagree with you for the first time, but instead left very interested and informed. It makes sense. I really think that my staking out Santa and finding it was a lie helped me escape Mormonism.

[@FTZPLTC]

It is of course important to clarify *which* lies it's okay to tell children about Santa.

[@justforplaylists]

So Santa is like the house hippo PSAs? Does motivation matter? I think more parents lie to their kids about Santa not to teach them about trust but because the parents find it entertaining - that's a blunt way to put it, but that's what it boils down to.

[@lindensalter6713]

This seems to be a good thing to consider how the studies don’t parallel 100% with reality. So many parents actively fight against the critical thinking skills their children are developing for these myths just to keep the magic alive. None of the studies shown showed what happens when you push back on the kids trying to deduct the truth. What happens when all the authority figures are extremely persistent that the candy witch is real after the kids have concluded the evidence isn’t there for the candy which? I would be curious if that kind of factor would change the results at all. I don’t think this changes the core of this video. Something that can be seen as a lie isn’t inherently bad for kids and can actually be beneficial. But I think it’s important to figure out how to do Santa because boy there are many ways to approach this tradition from Santa is the spirit of giving to elf on the shelf

[@justforplaylists]

​@@lindensalter6713 Agreed on all points.

[@larissabrglum3856]

I dunno, I personally was pissed when I found out my parents had been lying to me and I think it's pretty strange that we lie to kids unnecessarily. I don't pass judgment on parents who do Santa with their kids, but it's not a tradition I'm going to continue.

[@TheFracticality]

@@larissabrglum3856 "There is a Santa Claus but it’s an idea, it’s not a person. Santa Claus is doing good things for people, just because; and so long as you keep doing that throughout the rest of your life, there will always be a Santa Claus." Rebecca Watson relating her father’s words in SGU#74 It's not a lie if you tell them the truth.

[@jinxed7915]

​@@TheFracticality...okay so are you saying that you do want parents to lie to their kids and justify it on the backend or are you suggesting that parents sell their 3 year olds on something as esoteric as a fictional character that's a metaphor for the spirit of giving, Christmas, etc?

[@TheFracticality]

@@jinxed7915 Do you or don't you get a kick out of giving to someone in need? If you haven't done it before, I suggest you give it a try.

[@TheFracticality]

@@jinxed7915 Santa Claus still visits our house even though our children are 30 and 25. Santa Claus will always visit our house on Christmas. That is what Christmas is.

[@beoweasel]

I'm reminded of Terry Pratchett's Discworld Novel, The Hogfather (the setting's equivalent to Santa Claus). In the context of the story, the Hogfather has gone missing, and the anthropomorphic personification of Death, takes up the mantle to maintain children's belief in him. After the real Hogfather is saved thanks to the efforts of Death's granddaughter, Susan (her mother was adopted, it's complicated), she stops to question why Death did all this: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little-" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point-" MY POINT EXACTLY.

[@Zuraneve]

I found out Santa wasn't real at the same time I found out the Easter Bunny wasn't real. We had gotten home from church and there were no eggs to hunt for in the back yard and I was disappointed. So my mom and grandma sat me down to explain the reality of the situation. I was so distraught that they offered to pay me ($20! in the 80s!) to tell my sisters so they wouldn't have to. I neither accepted the money nor told my sisters. I may be a chaos gremlin, but even I have principles. Honestly, I'm still more offended they tried to bribe me to do their dirty work than I am that they lied to me.

[@dunkel429]

Counterpoint from a childless former child, when you find out your parents have been lying to you about things like Santa and being arrested for not cleaning your room, you tend to distrust them on important things like that really nice man giving out candy at the playground is bad.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

You reachin' decades back for that silly anecdote.

[@bubbafug00gle51]

"things like Santa and being arrested for not cleaning your room" Those things are not equally harmful... it's one thing to elicit good behavior from a kid by filling their heart with joy and hope... and another thing entirely to do so by causing fear and anxiety

[@rafaravioli]

Yeah, idk. I feel like people can have very different reactions to learning the truth about Santa, depending on a large number of factors, and it's hasty to generalize this study all the way to "it's good for society at large to perpetuate the santa myth".

[@Sina-dv1eg]

I don't think the Santa part was the problem in your example

[@rowb9449]

​@@bubbafug00gle51I'm not sure if I've ever heard someone using Santa to fill a child's heart with joy and hope so much as using him first as a bribe for good behaviour and then as a threat, hence regularly reminders they won't get gifts if they don't behave and threats of he will give you coal if you are naughty instead of presents.

[@sandrinowitschM]

My oldest is 8 years old now and he's beginning to suspect that Santa isn't real but the evidence presented to him that Santa IS real is still too strong. A few days ago he told me that last year when we went for s walk he looked and there where definitely no presents under the Christmas tree but when we got back there they suddenly where. Since our whole family went for a walk it couldn't have been any of us so it must've been Santa! Luckily he missed the fact that my wife "forgot" her phone and had to go inside and get it real quick. A thing that is totally in character for her so it didn't raise suspicion. I'm gonna let him figure it out for himself. I'm already leaving little clues in the form of inconsistencies when we talk about Christmas. One day he's gonna get inaugurated in the circle of Santas because in the end thats what we grown-ups are for children.

[@erinkinsella91]

Isnt Santa supposed to leave the presents on Xmas eve?

[@caseyw.6550]

My son is 8 and he started really questioning it last Christmas. When he would ask, I just always said, "Do you think he's real?" By now, we just have this unspoken understanding between us that we are pretending he's real. I can tell he doesn't believe, but is choosing to suspend his disbelief because it's fun to play along.

[@neea8807]

@@erinkinsella91 There's different traditions, at my parents it was "Get out of the room just before midnight and try to see Santa by the windows, we'll call you if you miss him" and my in laws do "Santa put the presents under the tree while you're sleeping"

[@erinkinsella91]

@@neea8807 yeah I did that growing up, ive just never heard of someone doing it so early in the month

[@sandrinowitschM]

@erinkinsella91 we're German. Santa brings the presents sometime in the early evening of Christmas eve and the children can open them on the same day. Every family does it a little bit differently. We usually go for a walk after dinner to "look for Santa". It's really fun with little kids because they're so hyped up and their imagination is running wild so you only have to nudge them a little bit and they're seeing signs of Santa literally everywhere. When we get back from our walk it more often than not turns out we just missed Santa again.

[@bikibird]

Santa Claus teaches kids that hypocrisy has a pay off. Also teaches that social truths are more important than actual facts.

[@thedave1771]

Yeah. Good job that people outgrow it, and it doesn’t translate to politics, or business, or adult relationships, imagine what a shitshow of a world that lesson could bring us.

[@jaybee4118]

My parents told me about Santa, or rather Father Christmas as he was better known in the UK at the time. I was so completely terrified by the idea of a stranger entering the house at night they had to reassure me that part didn’t really happen. I pressed them so much about it though, because it still scared me as it was still a thing in many TV shows, he seemed to be everywhere and kept looking different, etc, at 4 years old they finally told me the truth. I suppose it helped me with critical thinking, but I think that was a lot more about my parents being sensible for the most part. All I can remember is being scared and the relief when they finally admitted the truth. I could have done without the couple of years of fear I think…

[@voracious.Reader]

Terry Pratchett had the best take on lying to children in his book "Hogfather": "HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. “Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?” YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. “So we can believe the big ones?” YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. “They’re not the same at all!” YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME…SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. “Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point-” MY POINT EXACTLY."

[@irighterotica]

Yes! God, I love Pratchett so much.

[@Martial-Mat]

Never gonna convince me that lying to kids in a way that is not to protect them, is a good idea.

[@thedave1771]

Yeah. I was an awkward kid and had enough issues interacting with other kids. In my 40s and just starting down the path of determining if I am autistic (something else I may have been lied to as a child). I don’t have a ton of overly specific memories from elementary school, but at least two are very negative situations specific to discovering lies my parents told me. I don’t blame them, but I also don’t lie to children under my care. Not a bio-parent, but I’ve done the step-dad thing a couple times now, plus one of those we took in a teen who was struggling, and I’m quite convinced that the reason we established a respectful and trusting relationship is my approach. Sometimes the answer is a question, or sometimes it’s that you aren’t going to have the conversation, or that it is a topic for when they’re older, or whatever, you don’t need to head for the brutal truth, but you can be honest. I could be luck. 4-5 kids (one diagnosed autistic, 4 of which are adults now), a study does not make. The plural of anecdote is still not data. But I would take the exact same approach again.

[@RebeccaWatson]

I too prefer my beliefs over data and science

[@ThomasOlges]

@@RebeccaWatson This is an over-reach. The articles you cite suggest that kids are naturally incredulous and become more skeptical when presented with easily debunked information. Straight-up lying to your children and planting evidence all over your house so that they will have *reason* to believe in Santa Claus is not the same as presenting them with easily debunked lies. If you told a naturally skeptical 5-year-old about Santa, most of them would probably not believe it...except that you're putting presents under the tree for them, eating the milk and cookies left out for them, etc. You are actively undermining their attempts to figure out how the world really works. Maybe I'm missing something, but I am not convinced of the parity between the studies in question and the conspiracy of Santa Claus.

[@ericslavich4297]

@@RebeccaWatson Might there not be a way of having your cake and eating it too, here? Maybe parents don't have to lie to their kids but can still ensure the kids are exposed to situations that develop critical thinking skills. The research you discussed involved certain methods; it does not follow that those precise methods are the best possible methods.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

I mean it's a good pre-atheism critical thinking exercise, so in a way it's helping protect them from future misinformation.

[@themystic8634]

As a secondary science teacher I will never directly lie to my students (though that in part is about ensuring they understand the limits of my expertise, and can build a more nuanced trust in my claims). I do however like to force my students to assert their scepticism by presenting false dichotomies when questioning them as a class. Either to identify that a third option is the correct answer or that it is impossible to discriminate between these answers with the information they've been presented. I find in both science and maths, students tend to assume they've missed something or misunderstood and start making increasingly invalid logical leaps to try and fill in gaps to find what they presume to be an answer. Thus, I have built an approach that compels them to confront this, and begin to distinguish between logically sound arguments and the need to connect a starting and ending point with something that feels logical.

[@themystic8634]

I also explain this logic to them. It would be cruel, if I let them fall into that trap repeatedly without giving them a path to improvement.

[@ashleya9353]

When my oldest asks if Santa is real I don't lie, but I do ask "what do you think?" and support whatever she says (we also do most gifts from Mom and dad and Santa mostly fills their stockings with candy). Truthfully I can't wait until she says no (I think she's pretty close) so I can explain that Santa is just what we call the desire to give and share freely around the holiday, which is itself a real thing even if there's no literal person who comes down a chimney in late December, and now that she knows she can not just be a consumer/recipient of that desire , but can in turn become that experience for others. We were also *terrible* about upholding lies about the tooth fairy. Who the hell carries tooth cash anymore anyway?

[@caseyw.6550]

This is exactly how I am with my son about it. 😊 I'm just like, "idk...do you think he's real?" Lol! I'm not good at faking all that shit either. 🤦‍♀️

[@thedave1771]

This is how it’s done. You don’t have to lie to their face, but you also don’t have to beat them over the head with reality. I’d say this applies to adults too, in a lot of ways.

[@kyih7]

i love lying to my nephew and niece because they're always surpisingly good at making me look like a fool

[@geekfreak5100]

When I was kid, it honestly kind of annoyed me when my parents insisted santa was real, and was kinda offended they thought I was that gullible. So I modified then hid a camera near the Christmas tree to catch them in the act of putting presents that were supposedly from santa. Like most of my inventions as a young child, it didn't work. But when I explained what I tried they were embarrassed enough to come clean, so my habit of being an intolerable skeptic ruining everyone's fun only strengthened.

[@thedave1771]

I’m in the “don’t lie to your kids” camp, but you don’t need to be brutally honest either. Here’s a thought: Santa *is* real. Not a real person, he’s a concept that we anthropomorphize a bit. Put out gifts, enjoy the season, do the mall photos if malls still exist, whatever, just don’t lie to their faces. And once kids start figuring it out, let them in on the secret: They are Santa now, and can help with the season. Maybe gifts to less fortunate families, or contributing to food banks; or anything else that spreads joy and reduces misery and isn’t about gimmie-gimmie-gimmie. Oh and still get them gifts too, there’s no reason to not have fun.

[@larissabrglum3856]

I think that's a good compromise

[@andrewphilos]

I have a deep gut aversion to lying to kids about Santa (I knew Santa was my grandpa in a costume since I was 5 years old). I don't wanna hash out the whole thing here, but one point I'd like to bring up is that any study you do on this is gonna be influenced by the Hawthorne effect. The fact that it's a play situation like the Candy Witch or toy examples like the zorpies creates a level of artificiality that will bias the results to some extent.

[@arroncunningham9866]

I was on the fence about Santa, until I read "Hogfather" (Discworld). Pratchett makes a point that a lot of the things we need to believe in order to have a functional society are in fact made up (e.g. justice, mercy). We need these little lies as children to "train" us to believe in things beyond reality.

[@MrTheWeir]

I was thinking about this exact thing while watching! I really enjoy Pratchett’s wording as well - how fantasy is important because it’s “the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.”

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

But those things are not beyond reality. Mercy and Justice both have real tangible benefits. There is actual solid justification for them and that provides a much studier foundation than "because X said so"

[@someonesdad5986]

We never used Santa as a replacement for doing what is right and good. He was always a fun Spirit of Christmas idea, thus our daughter figured it out pretty early. Ironically, we are practicing Christians from a sect that does not actively celebrate or endorse unprescribed religious holidays. Even so, as millennial Americans, we celebrate good ol 20th Century American Christmas big time. The coolest part of all this is that our daughter even asked us if God was real when she was eight. We aren't trying to raise a little drone and celebrate questioning authority. Probably has to do with all the alt-rock blasting through our teenage years.

[@rsilvers129]

I didn't lie to them about him. In fact much to my wife's dismay, I made videos where I told them Santa was mommy. It didn't ruin Christmas one bit. They still enjoyed the gifts and events.

[@ksol-px2sl]

My first Santa memory: at the age of (barely) 4, someone told me Santa would come down the chimney. Took one look at our fake fireplace and thought nope. Yes, I was a preschool cynic. So I never believed. It was a fun game, but I knew from the start it wasn't real. Broke a friend's heart in 2nd grade when I told her, not out of meanness, but because it didn't dawn on me that anyone believed that nonsense

[@AlexisBabayan]

I lived in an apartment building without any chimneys- but I figured Santa could just come in through the window.

[@Kocorochan]

@@AlexisBabayan For us it was through the letterbox.

[@blupunk01]

At least telling children that their behavior is being monitored and judged 24/7 will prepare them for the pervasive surveillance state they're going to spend the rest of their lives in.

[@ryvyr]

Nurturing critical thought earlier on, with some fleixibilty to enjoy precious years of innocence we mourn the loss of with age, helps for sure, though outright lying about Santa rather than explaining cultural phenomena seems to risk religious reasoning =/

[@gh0st_b0yfriend]

No it's the exact opposite, because we all learn the truth at some point. I've met multiple people who cite the Santa realization as the thing that led to them questioning the existence of the OTHER all seeing, all knowing, immortal reward and punishment guy their parents told them about.

[@kanal7523]

It does the opposite of instructing religious reasoning precisely because as they grow up they can realize for themselves (or through a talk with their parents) that its made up, which forms the "don't believe just because you were told so", actual religious stuff aren't as easily recognized as false after you grow up in contrast to things like santa, witches, vampires, leprechauns and so on

[@ryvyr]

@@gh0st_b0yfriend @kanal7523 I see, and much appreciated for the counterpoints ^^ What makes it so difficult to resonate intuitively is the need to be dishonest, especially from parent to child, though I ought to lean more on data perhaps >.>

[@siamsasean]

A newspaper. Is also black and white, and read all over. I'll get my coat.

[@acemorris6535]

My parents didn’t let my siblings or I believe in Santa because “lying to your kids are wrong” (yet my dad lied that turning a light on in the car while someone is driving at night is super dangerous, but that’s another discussion) and it honestly feels like a part of my childhood was denied to me. If I ever have kids they’ll know the magic of Santa.

[@thedave1771]

You can do that *and* not lie. Just put gifts out. If they ask “I don’t know, what do you think?” Take them to the mall and do photos if you’re into that and malls still exist by then. There is a big difference between lying (he’s real, he sees you, he’s watching you, so you’d better behave) and being brutally honest.

[@acemorris6535]

@thedave1771 I have no plans on saying Santa watches you or punishes bad kids with coal. I think kids should be allowed to make mistakes without fear. Nor would I likely outright say Santa is real, but those little traditions like baking cookies for him before Christmas and seeing a gift or two from him are fun! And I didn’t get that and it honestly makes me upset that I didn’t. The only reason I would tell my kid Santa isn’t real outside of them figuring it out themselves is if they’re on the autism spectrum and they don’t handle lies well because of it. And even then I would emphasize not ruining the fun for other kids. Basically I plan to not be like my parents if I have kids.

[@jevinday]

When I was a kid my uncle dressed up as Santa at our family Christmas party, and after he left he went running through a field at night with a red light and the adults were all like "look, it's Rudolph!" I remember literally believing that there was a man in a red suit flying in a sleigh being pulled by reindeer. Even looking back on it as an adult who is nonreligious, I can still remember the magical feeling I had thinking it was real. I highly recommend letting your kids believe in Santa for a while. It was a bummer when I found out, I was way older than most people (i was at least 10, probably closer to 11 or, I mean I had heard the rumors lol but I didn't accept it until I was probably 11 or 12 😂 I'm mature enough now to look back on it and see that my family had good intentions, i don't feel "lied to" lol. But I also had trusting relationships with my parents, so I understood why they did it

[@Tessa_Gr]

Turning on a light in the car at night is dangerous. Having a sudden, bright light at night will make it much more difficult to see the dark road, you could accidentally drive over something, hit a pothole, etc. It can also startle you if you're not prepared, especially because when driving at night you need to be really concentrated bc you might be tired and it's very dark and difficult to see anything. Your dad did not lie to you about that. Ofc I don't know the details, he probably hugely exaggerated. But exaggerating a real danger is different from intentially lying to your children for no reason. I understand that you feel sad that you don't have a specific childhood experience that many others around you have. But acting like Santa is such an integral, important part of childhood overall is quite silly. Millions of happy children around the world don't have Christmas at all. It may be understood as "a part of childhood" for many kids in the US, but it's really not an essential part of childhood at all. The problem is not that you "missed out" on Santa, it's that others around you did not.

[@carlbeel2444]

There is definitely a period of time where children lie to their parents that they still believe in Santa.

[@horrido666]

My son caught on at the tender age of five. After that, it was just a wink and a nod. We both played along. No lying was ever necessary. Not once did I lie to my son about Santa. Just beat around the bush tactfully. I caught on when I was about six. I still remember spying my mom sneaking in presents like the day kennedy got shot.

[@courtneybrown6204]

After i discovered "Santa"'s wrapping paper hidden away, I knew I had been lied to by the adults about Santa. Instantly, I also became an atheist.

[@RedRyan1]

As someone who spent so much time outside, looking for Santa… I was not happy when I found out that I wasted so much time for nothing.

[@raphaelmarquez9650]

Wouldn't teaching kids to be skeptical of parental figures and authority figures also cause a slippery slope of them having trust issues with any with authority, even ones in left-leaning groups?

[@GameTimeWhy]

Why specify "left leaning"?

[@raphaelmarquez9650]

@@GameTimeWhy Because this teaching method towards kids might backfire by having those same kids question us left-leaning people telling the truth about our ideologies.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@raphaelmarquez9650 again though, why single out left leaning? Left leaning people are not truthful all the time just as right leaning are not lying all the time. It's a very binary and us vs them mentality. Also this video and comment section shows that left leaning people are willing to lie to children.

[@pmsteamrailroading]

I always felt that Santa is far more believable than that story about a carpenter.

[@davecgriffith]

No no no, he was a real guy! And truly someone we should follow. And not just a carpenter. A writer! A comedian, an audiobook narrator. And that dreamy mustache... ... man, one of these days I've got to get around to watching Parks and Rec.

[@Nicksonian]

Omnipotent Santa. Does that mean Santa is god? Or A god? Christians seem to be contradicting their own religion. Christians have their trinity, father, son, and Holy Ghost, but WTF is the Holy Ghost anyway? Does Santa make it a foursome? So then why not bring back Thor and his fellow gods?

[@pablodelsegundo9502]

Certainly more interesting and staggeringly less morbid.

[@thedave1771]

@@pablodelsegundo9502 both should be a bit terrifying, look to either the German take on Klaus, or literally all of the genocides, famines, slavery and other outright atrocities.

[@kellydalstok8900]

At least there is concrete evidence that Saint Nicholas really existed, while there is none for the existence of the carpenter, just some stories by men who never met the guy.

[@jessicatrue2851]

As a parent who decided to avoid lying about Santa (it's a fun game we do, spirit of giving, blah blah), that all goes out the window as soon as preschool brings him to visit. "Mom, Santa came to school today!" "Neat, a person pretending to be Santa came to school?" "NO THE REAL SANTA!!!!!" Our kid unceremoniously decided he wasn't real a couple years later. In any case, I'm wrong or deceptive enough to give them plenty of opportunities to distrust authorities.

[@piaonomata9220]

I'll preface this by saying everyone needs to do what they feel works for their family and their individual kids. This is just what we did...but I think it kinda works to preserve the magic without "lying". When our kiddo started asking about Santa, what we told her was that Santa was a really fun thing to pretend about, like she enjoyed pretending to be Thomas the Tank Engine or pretending we were the cast of MythBusters or whatever. We absolutely encouraged her to have fun with the pretending, but we never said or implied it was anything beyond that. We did also say that there were kids who believed Santa was real, and it would be mean to take that away from them. But she was always pretty happy with that. Got to have the fantasy and the reality that way.

[@Lambda_Ovine]

what if you instead of lying, you just keep it a secret, and if they ask you if Santa is real you just go, "I can neither confirm nor deny that" and let them figure it out on their own?

[@HerrFrankenstein]

I moved last year. Updated the dmv, voting registration, insurance and businesses of all types. My concern is there is no way of knowing whether or not Santa has my new address. It's not that I have asked for anything really, if Santa showed up empty handed, I could fill his sleigh in no time at all. Make this holiday season your sweetest ever, and should you see Santa, tell him I moved. Thanks

[@illdie314]

I found that my process of figuring out Santa isn't real ended up looking a lot like what my process of leaving Christianity did towards the end of high school. I kinda resented having to go through that process twice but considering how glad I am to have left religion, maybe my experience with Santa prepped me for it better lol

[@gh0st_b0yfriend]

I think my experiments to find out if Santa was real were my first uses of the scientific method. 😂 The question ignited my determination to find the truth! My only regret is that my mom folded too soon, I wish she had let the experiments play out until I was absolutely sure.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

Trying to spy on my toys after seeing toy story

[@NobodobodoN]

We told our kids about Santa, but we also talked a lot about the power of myth and storytelling. We never came out and said "Santa is just a story", but we never said he wasn't, either. I'm not sure when they caught on, but I think they waited a few years to tell us, because they figured they'd get more presents the longer they played the game. We came all came clean a couple years ago. But still, my youngest teenager still wants to leave out milk and cookies and play out the ritual. And I still put on the hat when I'm putting presents under the tree. I suppose I should mention that I bear more than a passing resemblance to Santa Claus and even occasionally do charity work as a Santa Claus at various events in town. (And I used partake in Santa Con before it became such a mess.) So my kids already told their friends "My dad is Santa Claus" without telling them their parents were, too.

[@Tzimisce]

Ok, but how does this work with kids who are indoctrinated into religion? Santa and God are both fictional characters, yet telling children God is real leads to magical thinking, and Santa somehow leads to critical thinking?

[@pauligrossinoz]

After a certain age the parents will allow the Santa facade to drop, but they work overtime on maintaining the god bullshyte facade. They're just hoping the god bullshyte still sticks.

[@SkyeSoleil]

RIP to all those parents who had to do the Candy Witch for their kids for years after the experiment …the kids probably loved it though. If I ever have kids I’m totally playing the Candy Witch

[@RebeccaWatson]

Candy Witch ftw, gotta get rid of those tootsie rolls and bubble gum somehow

[@jellewijckmans4836]

I don't know there is a pretty big difference between giving them blatantly wrong animal facts and doing a societal long con about a magic man. There may be some benefits to lying to kids and it's definitely funny but I would also expect the benefit to be inversely proportionate to how long the lie is kept going before it's revealed. "Authority figures even me can lie to you" is an important lesson for kids to learn but that doesn't mean Santa is a good way of teaching that.

[@malchickoleander]

No but it's a fun way of doing it and allows for a lot of fun and levity. It's not like Santa is some devious trick- He's a jolly fat man who gives you all the stuff you want! Learning that there's not actually a jolly fat man but instead your parents who love you that give you all the stuff you want makes it less magic and more familial.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

​@@malchickoleander why is magic better?

[@paulfoss5385]

I don't know that giving blatantly wrong animal facts would have the same effect. Kids are exposed to incorrect trivia all the time without adults intervening to supply it. Reasoning and sorting through trivia can teach kids to be skeptical about information, but that mainly teaches them skepticism about disconnected facts that the child has no investment in. Santa forms a narrative, a world with Santa and magic is fundamentally different than one without them. Santa isn't simply a bit of trivia, he is an explanation of a big bag of evidence the child is presented with. Unraveling the Santa myth teaches kids to question big picture narratives that matter. It's precisely because it is a societal long con that it's useful, because society is filled with false narratives: Rich people earn their money, privatization drives innovation, climate change is a hoax, the Earth exists, there's an after life, God is real, immigrants are bad, etc. And these ideas are way more harmful than thinking you can tell how old a lady bug is by counting its spots.

[@jellewijckmans4836]

@@paulfoss5385 Incorrect animal facts are what the study uses so it's the thing we have actual evidence for. You say the Santa lies makes kids better at picking through big lies but most people grew up with it and they clearly don't. So not only is it speculation beyond the evidence presented but it also goes against what we find by casually observing the world.

[@GameTimeWhy]

But santa has nothing to do with any of the examples you gave. Its just lying to your child about magic literally existing and then laughing later when they find out the truth. You can teach critical thinking without lying. You can also teach critical thinking without teaching your child that you are untrustworthy and will lie to them for an unspecified amount of time to "teach them a lesson". ​@@paulfoss5385

[@serqetry]

I could not disagree more. I felt betrayed by my parents when I found out. This theory is nonsense, it teaches you betrayal not critical thinking. Not all kids will have the same reaction, but if there's a chance you cause your child harm, you shouldn't do it. I don't have kids but my own experience made me swear I would never treat my own child like that. There's a million better ways to teach your child critical thinking that don't involve intentional deception.

[@TheFracticality]

@@serqetry if I was allowed to link articles on KZbin I'd share a link with you that would hopefully change your mind. I can't do that, so here's a bit of the article. --------- The Wife and I discussed whether or not to share the myth of Santa Claus with our children before they were born. I was all for bursting that bubble; better yet, just not even going there. My memories of Santa Claus are anything but pleasant. My mother and father did Christmas to the hilt. Large tree, Santa decorations, pictures with Santa, the works. Once, when we were staying at our grandfather’s house in Sacramento, my sister and I heard a noise in the living room. We nearly made it to the door before our fear of being discovered, and not getting any presents, sent us scurrying back under our covers where we finally fell back to sleep. When we awoke the next morning, there were snow footprints on the fireplace hearth. That was the best year. The next to worst was the year when we were particularly nasty to mom and dad, and got switches (sticks to get spankings with, for the uninitiated) in our stockings instead of candy. Why is that the next to worst? Because the worst year was when we found out that there was no Santa, and suddenly the magic was gone from the holiday. Santa never came to our house again. Not too long after that, there was divorce and hardship of an all too real nature as the family was torn apart, and there was no more talk of silly little things like Santa Claus. So you can imagine the mindset that I carried with me to the discussion. For her part, The Wife never experienced an end to the myth. Even after she knew there was no physical person named Santa Claus that visited her house on Christmas eve, the presents from Santa still showed up. The stockings still were filled, even for mom and dad. It wasn’t until I met and married her that there was any magic during the holidays for me, and then only because of her. She presented an argument that I couldn’t defeat. That there was something good in nurturing a sense of wonder in the children. That perhaps Santa isn’t a person, but is instead the charitable spirit that lives inside all of us. That the giving (and receiving) doesn’t have to end at all. So, I tell my children that Santa comes to our house, and there is no lie involved in that statement. Santa Claus is the Spirit of Giving, the anonymous benefactor who gives out of the kindness of their heart and doesn’t seek to be recognized for charity. He leaves presents that are from no one, and fills stockings for the people sleeping under our roof, no matter the age. His is a kindly old soul that doesn’t get recognized enough these days.

[@GameTimeWhy]

Yupp. Its insane anyone is defending lying to your children.

[@TheFracticality]

@GameTimeWhy ...and again. Don't lie to them on this subject. I know, I know, the sarcasm in the video went over your head. You poor, literal souls, incapable of understanding humor. I have an exact quote from her on this subject, one that isn't couched in sarcasm. "There is a Santa Claus but it’s an idea, it’s not a person. Santa Claus is doing good things for people, just because; and so long as you keep doing that throughout the rest of your life, there will always be a Santa Claus." - Rebecca Watson relating her father’s words in SGU#74 There are plenty of good reasons to lie to children. When you have children you'll understand what I mean. This is not one of those times.

[@GameTimeWhy]

@TheFracticality what things should you lie to children about? You said lie and not "explain in a way that is age appropriate". If this is sarcasm she, and the comment section, did a terrible job at showing it.

[@TheFracticality]

@GameTimeWhy My we are a textualist aren't we? As if explaining in an age-appropriate way isn't lying. "What are you and Mommy doing in there?" Answer that question without lying.

[@million_unalived_CEOs]

interesting study. I do wonder if anyone has looked into the potential impact of children realizing their parents lied to them though. I'm not saying santa is an especially high-stakes lie (I mean, it could possibly feel that way to a little kid, but compared to a lot of other stuff, it's not really), but in my relationships as an adult, even small lies can sometimes have a big impact on the degree of trust I'm willing to place in a person. now, maybe trusting anyone _absolutely_ isn't such a great thing, but I think most kids, even with very good parents, grow out of that some time around their preteens. I'd be curious what the tradeoffs would be of them having that realization when they're much younger. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic about it or anything, but I could imagine some possible negative impacts.

[@million_unalived_CEOs]

(yeah, I'm definitely not really sold on the "deliberately tell your children lies" idea, but some of the people leaving comments that amount to "this is literally abusive, you must be ok with corporal punishment too!"... please stop, maybe log off for a little while)

[@larissabrglum3856]

I was upset when I found out my parents had been lying to me, but I'm also autistic so maybe that's part of it

[@mikechiu9767]

So lie to my children all day every day until they are 6? Done!

[@ericslavich4297]

Good idea. In fact, taking this to the logical conclusion, nobody should be allowed to tell anyone under 6 ANYTHING true. Imagine how good these kids would be at critical thinking!

[@GameTimeWhy]

​@@ericslavich4297its insane that anyone is taking this "study" seriously. Its so incredibly poorly done. The advocating for lying to children is a gross one.

[@bkbland1626]

I think that it's just unnecessary and useless to lie to anyone. Especially your children.

[@RebeccaWatson]

ok

[@otterelise1754]

Something I remember as a kid was that when I started being skeptical of Santa, I was not 100% sure whether or not my mom knew or not and I came to the conclusion that I didn’t want to ruin it for her just in case. I think that moment of reflection for me really helped my development at that point and helped me recognize and practice empathy

[@gamegeek42]

I *am* a parent and I 100% endorse this view. At this point my kids are nearly grown up and great critical thinkers. Back when they were younger they were exposed to such misinformation as "no really, when dad was a kid the world was black and white then one day color...look at these pictures for proof" and "if you keep money in this shoebox and don't spend it more will appear". Amusingly enough I did NOT lie to them about Santa because, well, I just wasn't into all the fake theatre. But still. I totally agree with this approach and enjoyed this video along with my kids.

[@cdpbryant]

I worked with kids for two years at UCSC, the children of students/faculty enrolled in after school or summer programs hosted on campus. Divided by age, the older kids were broken into two classrooms: ages 4-5 or 6+. I always enjoyed the younger classroom, because the kids just didn't fight you on things as much. If you said it was so, they'd generally go along with it. It was like at 6 they started to learn, hmmm maybe not and I can say no to that and be obstinate. Sometimes I'd make up a story about something to distract them enough to sit down for snack time or engage in the play activity we had set up. It was fun to see if they could spot the tall tale and pick apart whatever yarn I'd come up.

[@aravisthetarkheena]

I stopped believing in santa at some point (don't remember the age exactly) - but it was because I put a candycane out for Santa (and didn't tell my parents cause they were acting SUS about Santa) and when it was still there after xmas, my experiment proved it 🤣 I'm kinda proud of my tiny little nerd self doing a blind study on the adults around me 🤣🤣🤣

[@nikolademitri731]

I majored in psych, and used to feel so conflicted on lying to kids, what’s the limit, where’s the line, what really is the benefit, etc.. I remember having some heated arguments on this subject, and Santa specifically, with some friends. Looking back, they were really stupid debates, or at least we got way too vexed, but this does feel a little vindicating in some sense, as I always insisted one lie that’s inert, maybe even beneficial, is the Santa lie (I was not lied to after my mom remarried a fundamentalist when I was around 4, before that I was, but I can’t remember it). This all makes me have more questions than anything, but really the main lesson here is never skip a RW video, as I nearly did, as it’s always going to be more informative and interesting than what it sometimes seems on the surface. PS - I used to lie to my dog all the time, telling him he was such a “good boy”, when in reality he was more a “moderately well behaved but also spoiled brat boy”. I feel like I’d have been a monster to NOT tell him that though!

[@FrozEnbyWolf150-b9t]

I see it as Santa referring to a relationship, not a specific individual or mythological figure. Anyone can be Santa to anyone else, because it's the act of giving that counts. This actually translates to figures like Jesus as well. It's a title, not any specific individual, and better refers to a relationship instead of a mythical being. It's all about how you treat others, and the impact you have on their lives. Any historical figures on which these names are based are long gone, but we are still here for each other.

[@bingusbongus9807]

the ends do not justify this means, lying to children about santa is one of the most horrid things that has wormed its way into our culture

[@RebeccaWatson]

I would have said the proliferation of guns but okay

[@cabalavatar]

@@RebeccaWatson It can be both. One is obvious; the other is insidious.

[@bingusbongus9807]

@@RebeccaWatson im not american thats not normal to me

[@zachb.6179]

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.” ― Dr. Seuss

[@daysoftheboo]

I don't think it's good to tell kids any stupid ridiculous lies

[@feloniousbutterfly]

How to say you didnt watch the video before commenting without saying you didnt watch the video before commenting.

[@bingusbongus9807]

@@feloniousbutterfly they can have seen the video and still think this, i think so too, even if it does have benefits (big if as i think the methodology is flawed) you can still believe its wrong to lie to your children!!!!!! i think its a moral crime that should merit prison time to lie to children about santa, its like saying "oh well breaking your childs bones actually make them stronger in the long run" in my view

[@daysoftheboo]

@feloniousbutterfly you're wrong sir I did watch the video all the way I only stated my opinion

[@daysoftheboo]

@@bingusbongus9807 my parents were huge lying hypocrites But they were so delusional themselves they believed the lies they were told as children and pass that ignorance along to their children, it's a messed up quality of life when you grow up that way It's better to be straight up and honest with kids, lying to kids can also make them dumb just look at my parents for example how dumb stupid and ignorant they turned out

[@GameTimeWhy]

​@@feloniousbutterflywhy do you think being scum to children is ok?

[@darcelknowles8665]

32 years as a Mailman seeing the holiday come alive every year. Yes, Santa is the embodiment of the spirit of Christmas.

[@sojabursche]

I don’t think you should lie to your child about Santa. I have seen the damage it can cause and have experienced it myself. When I found out my parents and entire family had lied to me and my siblings about Santa existing even tho my siblings were terrified and cried for days in fear of a stranger coming into the house and still they choose to lie to us for fun it completely destroyed my basic sense of trust and I have not been able to trust anyone since then. Because the thing is your family is supposed to love you and not harm you but they did. They made my siblings cry for days. So who can you trust it not your family? I have been in therapy about this for years but therapy doesn’t really work when you have trust issues with everyone including the therapist. So for my niece we told her ist just a fun story we play for fun. Also helps with the fact that her friends are from rich families and she’s from minimum wage family, and she would think she was bad because she got fewer gifts. Also she is terrified of strangers in her house, so if we wouldn’t be telling her it’s just a game and not true we would completely traumatise her for no reason.

[@bonaldisillico]

Very good - and I loved the correct use of "honing".

[@YTMaley]

This video really warmed my heart as a dad to three daughters. Keep being awesome.

[@Estarile]

I think it really depends on how you go about it. The more effort you put into the lie, the worse the reveal is: like my family basically watched Norad tracker, did cookies and milk, and had some of our presents say "from Santa" on them. Believing in Santa was fun, but nobody was actively pushing it on us: the story had holes and nobody denied the holes, and when we noticed the holes my parents didn't double down. But then I hear about some of the things parents do to keep the lie going in the name of "magic" and I get why people can feel betrayed.

[@jaymorf7374]

Once my kids were 6+, I told them Santa was evil: he went around breaking into people's houses and stole the things under the tree. I would claim to have caught him in the act at our own house with a huge bag of loot filled with gifts from under the neighbor's tree. But I had retrieved our gifts he'd "stolen". As proof, i would show them a couple of presents for their friends next door that I'd kept as a "reward" (they would have already played next door and seen the very same gifts; a little advanced planning with the neighbors enabled this). Of course, there was always a gift for me under the tree from Santa. And as certain as i was that it would be amazing, like lots of money or a Gameboy, my kids were delighted to see it was always coal. Now I can assured that I was giving them a great intangible gift in a fun way: critical thinking.

[@GameTimeWhy]

Or that there parent is a liar and should never be trusted.

[@jaymorf7374]

@@GameTimeWhy Daddy issues much?

[@GameTimeWhy]

@@jaymorf7374 critical thinking issues much?

[@jaymorf7374]

@GameTimeWhy if only you had those instead of the daddy kind

[@GameTimeWhy]

@@jaymorf7374 you are the one who thinks lying to your child is a good thing. Critical thinking would have helped you to see how incredibly stupid that is. Let's teach our children that their safe space can't be trusted. Great plan.

[@thomasseymour4190]

As a childless 40 something that works with kids from time to time; I appreciate the humor and self awareness during the intro! I’ve been a super skeptical navel gazer for as long as I can remember and long thought about the santa thing. Appreciate your take, thanks for the perspective.

[@jonreededworthy7518]

Childrens' innate skepticism growing in proportion to the amount of misinformation they're exposed to gives me more hope for the future of humanity Thanks Rebecca 🙂

[@rainbowkrampus]

"... because I swear like a sailor..." Me: No way. I don't recall you swearing ever. (shortly) "Those were so weird. What the fuck were they about?" Me: Am I so used to swearing that I don't even register it now? Do I swear like a sailor and not even recognize it?

[@paulgracey4697]

My earliest memory from childhood was when I was 3, but my siblings, all younger than me, could not remember anything before 4 or 5 years old. That led me to think about that phenomenom. I too did not have many memories before about five with that one exception, which was an episode where I nearly died and was hospitalized. That was in 1945. The memory I had was of the doctors, who talked about whether I would die or not beside the bed, but I was inside a plastic oxygen tent and my young mind construed them to be three giant ogres. I digress just to show that memory generally does not inform children until the age that the Santa lies become distrusted the way you describe, yet children respond to immediate thoughts and understandings much earlier.

[@SciHeartJourney]

When I was about 5 years old I was at my Grandma's house. She went outside and I didn't follow her. When she came back in I heard a car drive away. She told me that I just missed Santa Claus! 😭 I was so mad. WHY DIDN'T TELL ME? 😡 Didn't she realize that I wanted to meet him? 😩 But I ❤'d my Grandma, so I wasn't too mad. But I kept asking myself, "Why didn't she call me over to meet him? 😖" I was a TRUE believer in Santa! 🤣

[@SciHeartJourney]

I also started asking myself why they say Santa flies a sleigh when I just heard him DRIVE away in a big car? 🤔 🤣

[@rainpooper7088]

My dad always went "to the dentist" whenever Santa showed up on Christmas Eve. I think I fell for it the first few years, but I noticed Santa was wearing my dad's shoes and wedding ring eventually. The last straw was when Christmas was on a weekend in 2005 and I realized that the dentist's office should be closed on a weekend. Yeah, child logic, it wasn't a big deal for me or shattering my belief system or anything. My dad actually really hated the costume because it was cheap polyester and extremely hot, but he did it for me every year even after I long figured out what the deal with the dentist was.

[@Justice4allthewronged]

I told my son that Santa brings a small present and we pay santa to bring the big present.

[@mirrikybird]

Reading these comments, I realised when I started being sceptical about Santa being real is when our father tried convincing me that he was real, unprompted. Even at that young age he had already proven himself to be a liar to me, so when he started talking about something I would naturally assume the opposite. When Mum did it, I knew it was for a game or a fun story. Basically, Santa didn't change how I😮 viewed my parents, how I viewed my parents changed how I saw Santa I think it's ok to play along with the story, you just shouldn't try to justify or try to defend the existence of Santa to your kids. If they ask, be honest. I remember a story somewhere, when a kid is old enough to realise santa isn't real, they are old enough to join the secret gift giving act. Include them and use it as an opportunity to teach them charity and kindness.

[@annelliott1384]

My parents didn’t do Santa with us because they were worried that finding out the truth about Santa would make it harder for us to continue to believe in (the Christian) God. My (Christian) grandparents gave us gifts from Santa, though. lol.