it's worse than you know

[@willmosse3684]

An honourable nod to Christopher Tolkien for not writing derivative crap in his father’s world, but carefully curating and publishing his father’s life’s work for study by the rest of us.

[@amdi8966]

“For study” 😂

[@willmosse3684]

@ why is that amusing?

[@louisduarte8763]

AFAIK, none of George Lucas' kids wrote anything of note. Not sure how much involvement Gene Roddenberry's son has in the new STAR TREK shows.

[@gedbyrne8482]

Though shalt not creat genre fiction in the image of your father’s masterpiece.

[@DamienWalter]

In the name of the father, the son and the Holy Ghostwriter

[@JCIce007]

@@DamienWalter hey now, Kevin J Amderson is no ghostwriter, they plaster his name on those Dune books! :)

[@DamienWalter]

​@@JCIce007 KJA doesn't do the writing, he just dictates an outline for the ghostwriter

[@epicparkourdewd]

@@DamienWalter "We need a mecha-sandworm to battle the giant Harkonnen memory ego phantom hydra in the finale!"

[@JCIce007]

@DamienWalter ah, the James Patterson Method.

[@chriswright9096]

To live with one Jungian therapist might be bad luck. To live with two seems like carelessness.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

Maybe one Jung therapist is a disaster , but two somehow makes a genius ? ;)

[@markhughes2556]

Or Synchronicity?

[@simonlatendresse2229]

Here's my hypothesis. The alleged "misunderstanding" of Dune is not due to people's incapacity to grasp its "high concept". I would argue it's not even really a misunderstanding of the work at all. People are just a lot more committed to authoritarianism than is comfortable to admit. So may be it's just that. The showwriters know that and think "why dafuc even bother then".

[@MinesAGuinness]

This, very much this. More people than is comfortable simply don't agree with Herbert's salutary warnings - rather they embrace the comfort that being lied to and having the security of authoritarian power brings. They'll happily support any holder of power, influence, wealth, or employment, and betray their neighbours, friends, and families, if they are assured of a place in life that is higher than someone below them. In the current climate, they'll happily label anything that questions the things that assure them of that as 'woke' and repeat as many lies as necessary to silence challenge to authority. You don't even have to pay them, or give them shiny jackboots anymore.

[@epicparkourdewd]

Then they fail entirely as creatives/artists

[@erdelegy]

As the Great American Experiment, too, devolves into mere autocracy, just like all the rest...Long the Live the King! (sarcasm thick as molasses here)

[@simonlatendresse2229]

@@epicparkourdewd And yet they do succeed as INDUSTRY people.

[@simonlatendresse2229]

@@erdelegy Someone I know even dismissed the Villeneuve adaptation as "too ideological"... this without even seeing it. But of course, in my original comment, I meant "committed" at a much more unconscious level. Hence the persistent misreading that Paul and Leto II are just so "rad".

[@claudioc6347]

Two models of posthuman consciousness? Mentats and Bene Gesserit, you say? Guild navigators say hello.

[@DavidManser]

Bene Tleilax Face Dancers just popping by...

[@KaiHouston-m6j]

Plus the Bene Tlelaxu, and IX.

[@tannisbhee7444]

Fun fact: While in a used book shop, not knowing what the KJA/BH Dune books are, I picked up a copy both had signed for 4$, forget what book it was. Later on realized I'd been terribly ripped-off.

[@axebeard6085]

I am more forgiving of the various Dune media (including the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels) because Frank Herbert was CLEARLY interested in the idea of inaccurate histories. Frank's foreword to the Dune Encyclopedia says the encyclopedia should be treated as an in-universe document with varying degrees of accuracy. There are also the quotes at the start of each chapter. Some are from in-universe historical documents that seem to disagree with the narrative. And the final bits of evidence are in the 4th novel. There are plot points involving historical documents that disagree. And the cherry on top is Leto II burning historians on a pile of their own books for lying pretentiously. So, with each new bit of Dune media, I play an analytical game of "whose propaganda is this?" Take David Lynch's Dune. We have the "weirding way" replaced by "weirding modules". Who would benefit from obscuring the existence of the weirding way? The Bene Gesserit, as they don't want their talents to be known.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

It's the 'good versus evil' trope that makes it so bad (in my opinion) .The Emperor, for example , was not a main character. Yet Frank Herbert managed to turn him into this complex human being . The first book (and last) novel I tried to read by Brain Herbert turned him into ' A bad guy who does bad things because he's a bad guy ' .

[@loomman5296]

Watching this show doesn't make me go "what are they trying to convey here?" It makes me go "I recognise a sandworm! Oh they mentioned Arrakis! Butlerian jihad mentioned! 🗣🗣🗣" God, is this what being a Marvel fan is like?

[@arrayofemotions]

This is a rant against turning thoughtful SF stories into mindless franchises, and I'm here for it. I'm just going to ignore this Dune series even exists.

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

Thou Shalt Not Create a Turd in the Shape of Science Fiction

[@selwynr]

Naybe make up your own mind, if you have one.

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

@@selwynr naybe we can even make up new words I got a good one for 'maybe not'

[@deeL59]

I'm here for the I, Claudius shout out. One of the best shows ever. Some of the best acting I've ever seen.

[@xhagast]

One of my favorites of all times.

[@ketchupitall]

The tragedy of the Dune series is twofold: first, most “fans” adamantly and deliberately miss the main point about power and the cult of charismatic leadership. Two, Frank Herbert was a “male feminist” before the term existed. Your first clue that any character will be revealed as a dedicated villain is that they’ll express anywhere from apathy to abject disgust for women. The “protagonists”, however, show a strong loyalty, love and affection for the women in their lives. The main story involves a superhuman, all-female secret society working the long game to overthrow an elitist male system that either classes women as second class citizens or outright puts them into a vegetative state and uses them for parts. It’s difficult to miss such an in-your-face plot, but the writers of the new series and movies have clearly skipped the reading, in favor of bland, rubber-stamped nonsense. The original Dune was a misogynistic grimdark universe that made A Handmaid’s Tale look like dark romance, but these ignorant goobers missed it. That’s the sort of thing that gives “woke TV” a bad name.

[@thecollector6746]

The Bene Gessirit were not trying to overthrow an oppressive, feudal system, as much as they were trying to place themselves in control of it. Let's stop pretending they weren't just as corrupt, cruel, duplicitous, greedy, violent, racist and oppressive than any other organization in that universe as well as being openly gMisandrist.

[@epicparkourdewd]

The Bene Gesserit were just as villainous as any patriarchal, misogynist powers within the books, heck, they were the mirror image feminine side of the Bene Tleilaxu masculine, disempowering the men within their society by taking away their reproductive free will as the sister crime to the tleilaxu axotal tanks brother.

[@fasted8468]

Oh yeah. like the obese homosexual guy. Dominating men and disregarding women

[@markhughes2556]

And you weren't the only one.

[@nunofernandes4501]

Why can't people just leave the originals alone and create new things on their own? Because it takes talent and effort? And passion?

[@latheofheaven1017]

I'm guessing because creativity isn't the point, but, as Damien touches on, about franchises and merch. The industry sees the rich seam of past creativity as simply something to mine.

[@nunofernandes4501]

@@latheofheaven1017 yes, and it's quite unfortunate for it ends up devaluing and diluting the source material.

[@homelander7742]

People make new things all the time. I Saw the TV Glow was an excellent ORIGINAL movie which I enjoyed watching. Why didn't Damien post a video about I Saw the TV Glow? Because he knew he would get more clicks posting a video about a known franchise like Dune.

[@HuntingCatIsBack]

They missed a trick by not releasing a soundtrack with the crowd pleaser: "Kwisatz Haderach, Give the dog a bone, All the cash is rolling home."

[@Shamino1]

I always felt that society going absolutely insane over the power of apex-technocrats nearly obtaining complete monopoly on post-scarcity production and automation to the point that they toss computers out their windows and have school-kids gleefully smashing calculators like children smashing roaches in Veerhoven's Starship Troopers film was much more fitting than, as you so eloquently state, remaking the plot to Terminator. Even when the prequel book released, the trope of Frankenstein's Monster-turned-steel ala Metropolis was decades and decades old and overutilized in Science-Fiction. It retroactively makes the Corrino Empire look even more ridiculous and stupid than it already did. Though I disagree on the concept of world-building occurring at all in Prophecy. Much like DV's 2 part Dune film, he films the forest and misses every single tree by not really explaining, or showing, anything remotely beautiful or interesting about Arrakis or its people. Here in Dune: Prophecy, I'm barely entertained enough or intrigued by anything to recollect anyone's name. Why is there an Atredies in the generic Star-Wars rebellion, when they've just been made a Great House? I doubt the writers themselves know. Here we have a show that has the capacity to explore transhumanism and create compelling narratives where women are protagonist, antagonist, observer and participant. Instead, it feels more like Hogwarts in space. I expected to see arduous training, serious mental exercise, philosophical debate, and exotic/tasteful depictions of women using sexuality as a true weapon. Examples of how women have evolved to break down poisons in their bloodstream and constrict their muscles to be as hard as steel, flexible as a whip, all while developing a communal purpose and overarching goals. Instead we have a Reverend Mother just sort of doing things arbitrarily and being utterly perplexed by Ixian Ragnar Lodbrook. If anything, Dune: Prophecy suffers too MUCH from mimicking, and failing, to repeat "I, Claudius-" Too many people acting with their faces, painting obvious emotional pictures when subtlety is key. Too much crying, emotional attachment, and wringing over doubts- all of which serves to remind the viewer that this is not a foreign and future place but just another soundstage somewhere in California. The writing does not instill whatsoever that these characters are the future Kingmakers of an increasingly centralized galactic bureaucracy. In "I, Claudius" every line of dialogue existed to float the story forward or to inform the audience about an important character trait. Half the time in Dune: Prophecy, people are just talking to comfort one another. A very strange way to start a series with only 6 slated episodes.

[@briandhackney]

Christopher Tolkien was masterful at protecting his father's work. Amazon only fired Tom Shippey after Christopher died. And if Herbert hadn't pushed so hard that the golden path was the only way for humans to survive foretold by people who could view all of time and space, readers might understand that it was bad.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

When Brain Herbert books appeared, I initially hoped the saga would continue. It took me one chapter to see it was bland bad written YA pulp.

[@karolj.4833]

8:47 It is impossible to overstate the importance of this point. Thanks for the video

[@joanmoriarity8738]

​@@ardenrYeah, get your own multi billion dollar movie studio. What are you, lazy or something?

[@karolj.4833]

@@ardenr How about checking the timestamp before responding?

[@bernardocoto8519]

I haven't bothered to watch any of these series, Foundation, Fake Tolkien or Dune. And I feel good about it.

[@DamienWalter]

Probably for the best.

[@simonhibbs887]

The Foundation TV series was terrible, but one thing I thought they did interestingly was the way all the characters in their own different ways are trapped into roles by the society they live in. Even the Emperor is locked into a deterministic repeating cycle that crushes his agency. It's just a shame the actual story was dull as ditchwater.

[@mmartinu327]

I envy you😢

[@1Klooch]

One of the best values of the miscellaneous series for me are the trailers. They remind me avoid the series and re-read the books.

[@willmosse3684]

Me too

[@anniebd1452]

Thanks

[@DamienWalter]

Thanks Annie

[@MrBazBake]

One episode, begged for it to get interesting, just felt like an inferior Raised by Wolves co-starring that guy from Raised by Wolves with the same personality and goals. But the fact that I felt watching the show exactly how it felt having the other post-Frank novels explained to me by readers is both a testament to the talent of the writers and a testament to the paucity of its execution I suppose. Then again, I enjoyed Season Two of Rings of Power and its ballsy table-flipping halfway through and he hates it, so I guess maybe there's still a chance.

[@Miata822]

We watched the first episode. My wife wandered off to start the dishes but I called her back to finish the show. "This is a burden we must bear, and bear witness to." We must go forth and bear witness to the awfulness we have seen.

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

I disagree. A thousand thousand households digesting the same turd just normalizes a crappy arc of the shared hermeneutic circle

[@nonsequitor]

The books were amazing. Lynch's version was, whilst not particularly faithful, imho one of the most unique pieces of cinema for the way it felt - simultaneously alien and powerfully historical as if the Hapsburg empire had survived into the far future. Hard to explain why this is worthy of praise but it felt more immersive and 'different' than full on historical recreations. Then we have the recent Hollywood version with Aquaman, pan pipes and neon special forces out of Olympus has fallen 🤷‍♂️. Shocked to hear the Disney TV series isn't great.

[@amdi8966]

You’re all kinds of idiot 😂

[@markhughes2556]

Yes I like the Lynch version too. It's very much his own thing, but it's very entertaining in it's own right. A real pity his version of Tolkien never happened - "Shire Walk With Me".

[@LukeBunyip]

Loved "...dark satanic CGI mills". Corporate Media has both Midas's touch and curse... Apparently the Australian word of the year is 'enshittification'. Which probably explains the fears I have for "Murderbot"

[@djblc2201]

Yes. And ‘enshitification’… was that squeezed into existence by one motoring journalist name of J.C. ? I might be wrong.

[@garrenosborne9623]

Got to love the Juice & the exposing of all the "$hitfuckery"

[@marshalsea000]

@@djblc2201 Jesus Christ?

[@erbernaljr]

I guess "encrapulation" isn't a strong enough term for how terrible this is. Guess I won't be getting an HBO Max subscription after all.

[@marshalsea000]

@erbernaljr it's OK, but don't expect the writing to be on the level of Dune. Well acted, in the main looks amazing, but there's some moments of YA crapness. Its not written by someone clever enough to do court intrigue properly, and as that's what Dune is... Well major failure. Suspect the writers just thought it was a nice space opera with some hot spicy xmen mutant gypsy thrown in for good measure.

[@p97dav45]

I never realized, until I saw this video, how tremendously large Frank Herbert's head was. Carry on.

[@JoeBauers]

You make me feel sane. Thank you for your work 🎉

[@keithbieberly6445]

I thought Christopher Tolkien did a good job of stewarding his father's work

[@wingflanagan]

I slavishly read every single _Dune_ book, including the the ones by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson. I chose to read them in roughly chronological order. This was challenging, since many of them jump back and forth in time, but I managed. And I remember halfway through the first book thinking “I cannot wait to get to the Frank Herbert ones“. I still made it through all of them, but - if you don’t mind wasting the hours and hours of your life to do so like I did - it is a very instructive thing to do. The switch from Brian‘s books to Frank’s books is almost like hitting a brick wall and then climbing over it. You hack your way through the brambles of hackery only to find yourself in an enchanted garden for a few books. And then it’s back to the brambles. And the conclusion, when we finally find out who that strange couple is toward the end of _Chapterhouse Dune_ - let’s just say it’s a giant face palm. To me, the true definition of “toxic fandom“ are the fans who become so engrossed with the minutia of the world, that they utterly miss the larger point the author was trying to make. In the _Star Wars_ universe, I really couldn’t give a fuck about Kyber crystals , sarlacc biology, midicholorians, the definition of 12 parsecs, etc., etc. Or even what “spice” exactly is in their version of the _Dune_ universe. The irony of _Star Wars_ is that much of this idiocy was created by its progenitor himself. I even rolled my eyes when I found out who Luke's father and sister are in the _original trilogy._ I'm one of those few fans who actually think that those developments were insanely stupid. If you go back to the first film, Darth Vader is clearly an archetypal bad guy, not Luke's poppa. The robots were a couple of comic-relief peasants who served as audience surrogates, and _nothing more._ Which leads me to wonder why I even bother with any of the prequels, sequels, and spinoffs. Why do I subject myself to this slop? Simple: I have an inner hope that won't die, no matter how hard I try to kill it. When I graduated from _Star Wars_ to _Dune,_ I knew that Frank's books were of a completely different caliber than the others. But I had hope that I would still find them all least inoffensive, if not engaging in their own way. Admittedly, that was the case for the occasional 50 page or so block of text, despite the inferior writing. The irony has not escaped me that I'm droning on about minutia while also decrying those who drone on about minutia. The thought of immersing oneself in a well-constructed fictional world is intoxicating. So I kinda get it. The problem is when fans - and, especially, creators - get lost in meaningless lore. Let's face it: it's easier to come up with a reason that the Kessel Run is measured in distance instead of speed, than to explore the actual meaning of the story as a whole and elaborate on it. It's more work, and requires more talent, plus we have action figures to sell. That merch isn't going to move itself. Sorry for the long rant, but if you've made it all the way down here, you have my humble appreciation. Thanks for letting me vent. Cheers!

[@fatherhanktree2011]

Fantastic comment,thoughtful and well written. I don't think I'll be reading the BH and KA sequels any decade soon,so I'm glad that you,and Damien, have! Still have to catch the Villeneuve movies,and maybe reread the original books,I only got as far as Children anyway! God Emperor looks interesting!

[@wingflanagan]

@@fatherhanktree2011 Thank you. I appreciate it. Skipping the other books is recommended; I'm just a bit OCD (in the casual, rather than clinical sense). I think you will thoroughly enjoy all of the elder Mr. Herbert's entries in the series. But do be prepared to end on a cliffhanger that, sadly, will never be resolved. At least, not properly. If only had lived just a few more years...

[@wingflanagan]

P.S. - the Villeneuve movies are quite good. They are not dumbed-down, nor aimed at kids. A bit of an anomaly. And, despite its issues, I find the Lynch movie quite engaging, as well. Frank Herbert himself, though I don't think he lived to see the final (sadly flawed) version, did, at least, approve of where Lynch wanted to take it. As I recall, he was quite enamored of the production design, which is the real star of that particular adaption.

[@champisthebunny6003]

Brian Herbert and his crappy ghost writer should be exiled to salusus secondus for crimes against literary classics. Ty for this video and saying what many of us feel. Shows like this are what you get when you merge really bad fan fiction and chat gpt.

[@thomascromwell6840]

Waiting for your starship video. Always a pleasure to watch these short videos about the science fiction that I love so much but don't quite completely understand.

[@DamienWalter]

We did the starship video already

[@gagslovedotcom]

​@@DamienWalterWhat's the starship video about? Links please 😁

[@parkera0430]

I would have loved to see the story you described: morally ambiguous women forming a secret society to wrest power away from their patriarchal overlords by operating behind the seats of power. That’s what I thought this show would be. I’ve been disappointed - but not surprised - by the shallow portrayal of the BG that we’ve gotten instead. That being said, I wonder how many male Dune fans would’ve been interested in a more FH-oriented BG prequel story. It seems like many fans default to a more shallow “Paul good, BG bad” interpretation. When the show title was changed from Sisterhood to Prophecy, I saw a comment from one man lauding the change, stating that he wouldn’t have watched a “feminist queef fest”. I wonder how many other male fans feel the same way.

[@jewulo]

Thanks for this. As a science fiction fan that has mostly read stories about Robots, Highly Advanced Computers, Sentient Software, Military Hardware, Space Exploration and Politics in Space. I was taken aback reading Dune. It felt very much not like any other science fiction I had read. It has taken me a while to understand that Dune is a science fiction about psychology. Dune is a psychology-science fiction. Psy-Sci-Fi if you will.

[@benway23]

Thank you for your work.

[@naftalibendavid]

Great work.

[@Nobody-Nowhere]

Sometimes this can work the other way, like in Starship troopers.

[@cobrakhan1284]

Great video. Nice one

[@TheJadeJester]

The Herbert/Anderson stamp is a huge warning sign.

[@steampunkdesperado8999]

Dang, it sounded like such a good concept!

[@johnmaynard869]

I Claudious reference 👌

[@katesherrod3498]

Chef's kiss, innit?

[@m.scottmcgahan9900]

That's a pretty harsh sentiment about Brian and Kevin's prequels and sequels. They certainly aren't as good as Frank's but not much is. I found them to be pretty enjoyable, if overly facile. I've read much worse. There's no reason to burn them, unless you're freezing and need to start a fire. If you're going to burn them just because they aren't masterpieces, then a lot of other books should go in that bonfire too. The Harry Potter books, James Bond novels, Doc Savage novels, Tarzan novels, Most of Stephen King's stuff, Most of Terry Pratchett's stuff, Most of Piers Anthony, Peter Straub, Fred Saberhagen, L. Sprague deCamp and Lin Carter Conan books, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Mockingjay series, a ton of others. Only genuine masterpieces allowed. What? You liked it up until the end? Toss it in the fire! Great plot but the dialog is a bit stilted? Burn, baby, burn! Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed most of the things I listed, but they aren't masterworks. You can't just tell people to burn every copy of a book just because it wasn't as good as another book. SMH

[@DamienWalter]

They're complete shit, and a disgrace to Brian's father's memory. End of discussion.

[@defufna]

The issue is not the existence of the facile but its presumption to stand as equal to the profound. Works with true depth-be they Terry Pratchett’s intricate satire or Stephen King’s layered explorations of fear and humanity-invite reflection and growth. The problem arises when shallow echoes adopt the name of greatness without carrying its weight. To cloak mere plot in the robes of profound thought diminishes the original, not by contrast, but by dilution, turning clarity into murk. Had these works chosen their own names, they might have stood unchallenged as their own creation, rather than as pretenders to a legacy they cannot uphold. But now, only fire can cleanse the confusion they leave behind.

[@m.scottmcgahan9900]

@@defufna Sequels and prequels almost never live up to the promise of the original, especially when undertaken by a different creator than the original, but they still fulfill the wish of the reader who craves a continuation of the story or characters and is not ready to leave the story unfinished. Chapterhouse: Dune was amazing but unfortunately leaves the story hanging, thus creating the need for Brian and Kevin to finish the story, based on Frank's notes and conversations with Brian. But in order to do so, they found the need to set up more of the backstory, thus the prequel trilogy. Frank and Brian had discussed writing a prequel about The Butlerian Jihad before Frank's demise. Certainly these prequels weren't as good as they would have been, had Frank written them. They fail to grasp the religious and mystical side of the universe, but the political and social aspects are only a little clumsy. They rather miss completely the overarching themes, but so do most history textbooks. The purpose of these prequels was really a history lesson, so that the events of the sequels would be better understood. But they consciously made the choice to make the stories accessible to the mainstream public, rather than to cater to the intellectual purists, which is probably really where all the hate comes from. Try looking at it as fan-fiction, and maybe your opinion can soften, somewhat. I would not advocate for the burning of truly dangerous books, like Mein Kampf, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, The Anarchist Cookbook, Gender Queer, The Turner Diaries, On the Jews and Their Lies, The Book of Mormon, My Awakening: The Path to Racial Understanding, The Communist Manifesto, Foundations of the Nineteenth Century, Dianetics, etc., and so I certainly don't advocate for the burning of harmless science fiction novels, no matter how bad they are. Down with censorship!

[@coinopanimator]

It seems to be idea amongst screen writers that they are better than novelists or maybe it’s the producers thinking that they can do a better job with the novel than the original creator will just take the seeds of the idea and turn it into something else.

[@ShannonWare]

"The harder they fail, the better." That's a keeper.

[@shumookerjee293]

The minute I saw this that show was based on the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books, my expectations were lowered considerably. And they still haven't been met 😞

[@akshayde]

It really is Dune for Dummies. Insufferable. There was no going back for me after that opening exposition

[@thecollector6746]

Dune isn't the "thinking man's" sci-fi you think it is. Calm down.

[@akshayde]

@thecollector6746 wow, way to twist and interpret the opposite. Never said Dune is for smart people. I did imply that Dune Prophecy is a dumbed down uninteresting version of whatver Dune is

[@guymasters301]

​@@thecollector6746 Idiot

[@amdi8966]

@@akshaydenobody cares, weirdo. Dune seems to be for lonely dudes who think they’re smarter than they actually are 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Noms_Chompsky]

Here's a question. So, before watching the 2 volume disappointment that was Dune: The Revenger's for VR immersive whatevers, I read all 6 expecting to enjoy myself with the movies. One thing struck me while re-reading the series consisted in both the little historical snippets preceding the chapters and the whole future whose goal was the self betterment of humankind; is Frank Herbert having a bit of a dig at Star Trek with all that? The Captain's Log openings as if the whole show were some historic recreation from somewhere in the future of the episode as well as all the interminable training and training and hard work to better oneself and learn new skill sets. Ol' Frank was pisssing down on Star Trek from a great height yeah?

[@maggyfrog]

jeez.. if anything, the show is a massive improvement on brian's contribution to the dune universe. the actually bad parts of the show so far are the stale intimate scenes that are so dry, you don't even realize right away that they have a purpose in the story. travis fimmel is doing a phenomenal job in his strange role. i still don't understand why some of the so-called fans of frank herbert can't wrap their minds around the idea that the bene gesserit is a matriarch organization, and that the whole reason why paul atreides existed is because this matriarch organization prophesied the kwisatz haderach. obviously, they were an extremely manipulative group of people. why are some viewers so baffled that they are being presented that way? the whole premise of the dune lore is the prophecy of the kwisatz haderach, and the bene gesserit manipulated countless political marriages to make it happen. what exactly was the show supposed to depict other than that? i can understand if the criticism is not having enough of frank's vision in the show and the part about the butlerian jihad, but describing them as mere mary sues?? really?? one of them immediately dies trying to do the right thing and got murdered, the other also immediately died or possessed after being persuaded to sacrificed herself to contact her ancestor. by the end of episode 2, the main character's use of the Voice is immediately challenged by the main antihero. it seems like you are ON PURPOSE discrediting the show for things that are not even remotely true. how are these characters mary sues if they keep failing 2 episodes in? we can even see that the acolytes are all out of their depth, and that none of them are prepared AT ALL. i don't think you even understand what the word mary sue even means at this point. furthermore, the emperor's truthsayer got murdered in episode 1. none of them are omniscient all-powerful beings with plot armor. even the main character looks like she'll die a horrible death at some point.

[@timbobill7279]

The moment they announced it, I knew it'd be $hit. Best to avoid.

[@TheJohnnyCalifornia]

Herbert is well known for depicting matriarchies in a negative light in his novels. The Bene Gesserit in DUNE are the most famous, but before that there was a precursor or offshoot of his ConSentiency series - a novella called THE GODMAKERS - he explored the ideas of DUNE in a much more recognizable science fiction setting of a standard "modern" galactic society. It's not as well known primarily because it is so "ordinary" compared to the other science fiction at the time, but it had a secret breeding program run by a cabal of women who weild power behind the scenes by subtly installing their husbands and sons into political and military offices. It also had interesting ideas - the idea of a government organ designed to slow down or "sabotage" other government agencies to prevent an acceleration of collapse in societies. Also, the idea of the emergence of a superhuman with godlike powers and how that would impact social order and structure (never really pays off). But that was stuff we had all seen before in Asimov and Bester and Sturgeon and Van Vogt and Clarke and even PK Dick who was a young entry into the industry at the time.

[@SudamaniMuth]

I absolutely agree with your analysis. Yet, I never expected anyone to be able to grasp the philosophy and make a great movie within the structure of a gigantic movie factory. I like the costumes, the props and all the Sci-Fi bling bling. And I hope I will live to see Paul II morph into a worm with all the internal worm discussion. Thank you for your brilliant review. I enjoyed it a lot. PS: it's obvious that the books of Herbert's son are deprived of ingenuity. I still liked to read them 😊

[@treyweaver5396]

Good vid! Read all the Dune books decades ago.

[@harriehausenman8623]

What if high-concept just doesn't fit through a streaming tube?

[@mapnotterritory]

Why do they need to make up an entirely new script for a show when no one has yet to accurately depict dune

[@HuplesCat]

I'm enjoying it. Each to their own. Holding it up to Dune the first 3 books and the recent films is unfair. Perfection cannot often be equalled. Still the acting and scenes are wonderful in DP. It is entertaining and Vikings!!!!

[@louisduarte8763]

3:58 SO the Butlerian Jihad was always meant to be one of those "Great Offscreen Wars" and never shown? It wasn't a literal war against robots? How else could it have happened? 6:04 Jedi? The Bene Gesserit act more Sith-like to me, this secretive order making secret plots to control the Repu- uh, Imperium behind the scenes. Which makes it funny that, by Paul's time, the order who does nothing but make secret plot have themselves LOST the plot.

[@DamienWalter]

You think there was a Burning Bush? Religions bullshit about the past to control the present. Jedi and Sith are the same.

[@Ginger_Bitters]

I disagree that the Bene Gesserit in Dune Prophecy are supposed to be good. Valya is clearly *not* good at all. That said, I agree it's not as good as it could be.

[@MisterCross]

Im thinking Frank Herbert's ideas about the Butlerian Jihad did not involve...GIANT ROBOTS! Thank You Brian & Kevin! As a person who imagined what the jihad must have looked like upon reading the words Butlerian Jihad the very first time my answer was not giant robots.

[@marcocatano554]

Ha ha ha, nice outro right there!

[@thethirdchimpanzee]

I have long said that "Dune" had the *potential* to be the next "Game of Thrones"...which I think HBO realized too...but failed to achieve it here. Honestly, 2003's "Children of Dune" came much closer. And as much as I like the new films...far too many good and important scenes that should have been left in Part One, and were either left on the cutting room floor...or never filmed at all.

[@louisduarte8763]

10:19 Didn't STAR WARS borrow a lot from DUNE, in a more family-friendly, easier-to-grasp way? 10:56 If you're referring to the time between "Return of the Jedi" (1983) and "The Phantom Menace" (1999), and Lucasfilm began the Expanded Universe in earnest, remember: Kevin J. Anderson wrote comic books and novels during that time too. And the mostly didn't suck. I tried the 1st episode of DUNE: PROPHECY, and... it bored me. Because it's another HBO show with villainous protagonists in a world without anyone with heroic qualities, scheming to take and keep power for its own sake. Came right after DC's THE PENGUIN and House of the Dragon. And I just can't get into that anymore.

[@JCIce007]

The show has its problems but I really don't think it's trying to make the Bene Gesserit all Good. Emily Watson Voice-murders a collegue in the prologue. In the second ep we see even some acolyte witches already resent that their leaders are willing to sacrifice them. Plus, the guy from Vikings, who is all about opposing the the Sisterhood, gets to be the most charismatic and intriguing character so far. (Hopefully he doesn't turn out to just be a Terminator.)

[@DamienWalter]

But the voice murder is to serve a higher cause. None of these characters have any personal ambition, they're all selfless martyrs.

[@JCIce007]

@DamienWalter there's been some implication that she's much more interested in the Harkonnen/Atreides fedd than she let's on. I wouldn't be shocked if there's a reveal that her real goal is *very* personal.

[@maggyfrog]

it's like a fraction of the viewers are hating the show on purpose and presenting it as intellectual criticism. it's not a perfect show, and it IS a mix of frank and brian's creation, but even as early as ep 2, the show does have some merit of its own. emily watson's character is obviously aiming to restore the harkonnen name. she is far from a selfless person. at least 2 of the 4 acolytes focused on are already shown to have their own secret agenda in joining the bene gesserit. even the seemingly best one of them sacrificed the acolyte she considers her daughter knowing all too well that she wasn't ready to go through the agony. the entire sisterhood is presented as originating from skewed ethics. i really don't understand all this hand-wringing as though the sisterhood is being presented as basically perfect nuns. they are far from it. the first one we saw use the Voice used it to wrongfully murder someone who was actually devoted to the true code of the sisterhood. there is no higher cause in that murder. it was personal bias. the fact that valya is a harkonnen is already the first clue that her character can't be trusted. we are seeing the root causes why this family devolved further and further into the future.

[@KamikazeJedi]

I thought Prophecy was actually really good. It got better and better. I kind of watched it as a Sith Story in the Star Wars universe.

[@prime-mate]

I like the part where she used the voice and was like, "Just a little thing I've been working on. " 😂😂😂😂

[@lourenzo1973]

Another cut on Damien's six shooter😅

[@DamienWalter]

What did I do now?

[@axebeard6085]

At the moment, I am leaning towards the hypothesis that Dune Prophecy will bring in the Tleilaxu as the enemy of the Sisterhood. I think this will help show the contrast the Sisterhood against the rest of the Imperium. The Tleilaxu role in the events of Dune Messiah lends, IMO, credence to this hypothesis. I believe the show has set this up in the second episode. Lila sees her grandmother's (Dorotea) death in her Other Memories. This would only be possible if Lila's mother was a ghola of Dorotea. I think it is clear Valya wanted the breeding records AND the Other Memories of Mother Superior Raquella. Dorotea (an Atreides) had NO intentions of giving a Harkonnen either of those thingss.

[@cane6074]

The film industry is utterly devoid of creativity these days, there's indeed creative talent within it, but the industry won't allow it to thrive. It's due to how risk adverse and short-sighted film companies really are these days. Plus the fact that's society is being inflicted with identitarian dogma has stifled creativity by its questioning and deconstruction of everything and taking a postmodern conception of truth In which truth is nothing but competing narratives as well as essentially boiling down all of human interaction to being a mere extension of power relations, how can one find inspiration or hope in such a dreary belief system? The result is that modern Entertainment is really nothing more than a collection of cheap vibes and memes, pandering to people's emotions as well as solopism, and cheap intellectual and rhetorical gimmicks. Maybe that's why people responded so badly to the Star Wars sequel trilogy, how can you find anything of value in anything that doesn't stand for anything and not believe in anything, especially that it's a sequel to a story which was about standing for something and believing in something. It's reasons why these days I don't really care about movies anymore, there might be something that catches my fancy, but I just simply can't bring myself to care enough to go a theater anymore Knowing I'm most likely to get low effort, unimaginative and tasteless slop that has little to actually say about the human condition.

[@notenlord1621]

This is, sadly enough, very true!!

[@duvetboa]

There are still great movies coming out. Look for director's and screenwriters that you trust. IPs are traded like trading cards these days and there's little quality control. They don't care if they hand valuable property over to a mediocre producer so long as they can turn some sort of profit.

[@cane6074]

@@duvetboa I agree, I'm very particular and what movies I watch based off who's directing or producing them.

[@rursus8354]

I've never liked Frank Herbert. He doesn't write Sci-Fi, he writes unrealistic High Fantasy where both sides are evil.

[@DamienWalter]

Both sides being evil is quite realistic.

[@gergelyszakacs]

I really wonder if the general lack of quality, the lack of understanding, the lack of fidelity to the message that Frank Herbert tried to convey so many times - is that accidental or deliberate? I could find arguments to support both cases: maybe it's hard to find talented writers who can churn out scripts that are both enjoyable for us and are producable for a TV-Show. That would make the show accidentally bad. Or, maybe the producers understand the original Dune universe very well, but they also understand that it tells a story that is hard to misunderstand and the masses don't even want to understand it the way it was meat to be - so the producers just go for a cash-grab and shit all-over the source. Any thoughts?

[@DamienWalter]

Writing. There are only a few good writers, then good writing takes time. So what you get is a sub-par writer in a rush.

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

​@@DamienWalter beyond this even, it seems as our society lost the ability to read for pleasure, we lost the ability to write as well.

[@gagslovedotcom]

​@@DamienWalterlook what happened when everyone rushed the ending to Game Of Thrones...

[@JCIce007]

@@gergelyszakacs Villenuve is definitely going to lean into "Paul isn't really a hero" with Messiah, which may for the themes into the show whether its writers get it or not.

[@jamesleonard2870]

I love how you go full on F451 at the end =] It’s a good idea but I was thinking g we need to slip the hbo writing staff and execs heroic doses of the good stuff =] 🌊🌊🏄‍♀️🏄‍♂️

[@clubx1000]

Things I can do when I'm not too well but not too sick. Shower, Heating in the bathroom, Finish the mail for Christmas list, Organize upper level, Obviously entertainment,

[@harriehausenman8623]

What do all the terminators and thinking machines do, when the last human is killed? 🤔

[@chriswright9096]

The awe with which Frank Herbert is viewed surprises me. I've read a few of his works, including Dune. I'd place him as middle ranking at best in the pantheon of great SF writers.

[@apersonlikeanyother6895]

Yes.

[@mattresbert]

I had to turn prophecy off after the tenth minute of exposition

[@DamienWalter]

It never stops

[@CarlosRomeroAlvarado]

I had so many issues since the second episode came out.. Our great 'matriarchy' is already in trouble because of the mysterious appearance of a magical superman. Communion with the ancestors through genetic memory became generic 'spirit ancestors' which can share information that would be unknown if it was through genetics. You cannot pass information that was aquired before they gave birth to the person inquiring. It introduces the paranormal and magic into Dune which is an extremely gross misunderstanding on the same level as the magical rain in Dune 1984. They needed one pedantic Dune nerd onboard.. Just one..

[@kedabro1957]

Herbert's concept of ancestral memory was already unrealistically magical. According to science, memories cannot be transmitted genetically at all.

[@CarlosRomeroAlvarado]

@kedabro1957 Sure, it's still a story so you have to suspend your disbelief. Point is, this goes against the established in-world rules and theme. It was never meant to have a magical explanation but rather a scientific one. Dune isnt about magic, it's about the potential of human ability.

[@JCIce007]

@@CarlosRomeroAlvarado You're right about how thr ancesyral memory is supposed to work in the books, but that's a lore detail that isn't unexpected to see changed. If Villenuve has Baron Harkonnen's "ghost" haunting Alia in the next movie (or a theoreticsl adpatati9n of Children'), would it ruin anything seems to remember events from the previous films? Paul having the power to Make It Rain in the Lynch version was a much bigger lore break.

[@katesherrod3498]

What I hate the most about the Dune prequels and sequels is the same thing i hate about the Star Wars prequels and sequels. Why is it always, in every age and on every planet, in an allegedly vast and populous universe, about the same two or three families. Brian & Kevin did a few interesting things here and there (I admit to liking the Gaius Helen Mohaim/Vlad Harkonnen storyline, and Ix was a bit cool) but Serena Butler was the ancestor of the Corrinos and the B.G. was founded by Harkonnens and Atriedes? Fuck all the way out of my universe. Scatter.

[@robmsmithdumbhandle]

Loved the laugh at the end about making God Emperor of Dune into a movie in 5 to 10 years. (as a Philosophy student, that was one of my favorite Dune books of the series. But I like Dune Messiah, too, which I had got a lot of bitchings from my friends about.)

[@colindunnigan8621]

I read the first three prequels back in the day, they were...okay, I guess. I did wonder why they felt the need to attempt to explain everything that Frank Herbert kept undefined, or vague in the earlier books; but the first three prequels were not unreadable per se... And then I read Hunters of Dune.... Oh, dear god in heaven, it still hurts...

[@gavinhammond1778]

I didn't know Herbert was into drugs, so that's cool, I'll likely still watch prophecy. Thanks for the content.

[@yojimboeastwood5602]

The golden path was necessary wasn’t it? Horrible yes, but I thought it had to be done to save humanity. I’ll admit it was many years since I read the series.

[@DamienWalter]

Every murderous ideology claims to be necessary for humanity, that's Frank's point.

[@emom358]

I couldn't read the books. Maybe if I had come across them before I read the original Dune...no not even then.

[@Scott-e2r]

Wonderful

[@FlameForgedSoul]

It's a shame because there are some interesting threads there, but the lack of Villeneuve's direct involvement is painfully obvious. HBO has also never quite outgrown their _Tits!_ + _Ass!_ = "DRAMA" mindset. When it rears it's head it can taint the best and lower the mediocre into the abyss.

[@RasmusDyhrFrederiksen]

Ahem, Christopher Tolkien did a good job.

[@DamienWalter]

And then his kids sold the estate for coke money. Put it in a trust.

[@JCIce007]

@@RasmusDyhrFrederiksen yes, but he also didn't dare try to write his own prequels and sequels.

[@Wrenlinn]

Yes, and he was more an editor and organizer than a sequel writer.

[@xristosrizos8406]

Christopher Tolkien was alive when Peter Jackson put "Alfrid" dressed as a woman in the 3rd Hobbit movie.

[@JCIce007]

@@xristosrizos8406 Chtistopher Tolkien didn't have any say about that. He didn't even want the LOTR trikogy made unless it was scene for scene, word for word. But the film rights had been sold by his father yeaea earlier. It worked out great for the first trilogy.

[@flaminghulaballoo]

Since Disney has made a new genre of sci-fi (streaming series' bastardized from beloved source material from decades before), it has generated this trend on the streaming platforms, and fostered the unfortunate step-progeny of Hate Watching. At this point, it should just be a given that anything built upon a masterpiece will generally be opportunistic trash. Of course, the publishing industry has already given free reign to such, anyway, as with the abominable Brian Herbert Dune prequel books (all of them, without exception). But, hey! Thanks for this thoughtful analysis.😉

[@VFella]

The Butlerian Jihad was not called ‘Butlerian’ because of someone called Butler who started it, but because of a XIX century writer called Samuel Butler who wrote futuristic fiction. And Jihad was meant quite literally, as the whole universe was modelled upon the Ottoman Empire in a completely unsubtle way. The jihad was a jihad, in the Islamic sense, because Islam was one of the mayor religions, if not the most influential. The Dune canon timeline contains no less than two new Islamic prophets, and the -sunny from zensunny does not refer to the weather. The Butlerian Jihad is mentioned more as a witch-hunt and Beeldenstorm than a war against some terminators. All said, I think that the series is quite entertaining, even though it fails to convey the concept of the powerful Bene Gesserit.

[@louisduarte8763]

So more like the Spanish Inquisition against androids?

[@VFella]

@ nobody expected that! 🤣

[@isomeme]

Christopher Tolkien did an amazingly good job. But in general, yeah.

[@JustinAlexander1976]

no, really, how did you feel about it?

[@anarwally]

With all the girl boss movies that have been made the last several years I had zero interest in this show. You know what it was going to be before they even made it.

[@ZacharyErnst]

Excellent review. But what I want to know is, "Did you like it?" Quit beating around the bush!

[@thexfile.]

Generic manipulation is a technology used in humans.

[@casard5235]

Harsh criticisms make me curious. Should I check out Dune Prophecy. I might if I can get it free.

[@christianmoller6141]

Where do you live? With all of the Palm trees, you must live in the Southern part of England.

[@harriehausenman8623]

Love the fake bookcovers! 😆 so good… but now I'm really all out of engagement.

[@kesamek8537]

Good video but get a proper microphone it would improve your audio a lot.

[@CrowMagnum]

I liked the second episode

[@athanatic]

The Brian and Whoever books are Fractally Awful!

[@SpiderMonkeyElf]

Having just watched the last bit of the series, I gotta say it’s bonkers how far off the mark this review is. The show may not be “perfect,” (nothing is) but it’s really good, imho. Not surprising, really, that a review based on 2 episodes of a 6 episode series was wrong. Damien’s fixation on very small details having to do with other sci-fi franchises (5:33) is bizarre. These seem coincidental to me, honestly, and even if they aren’t I don’t see why they’re a big deal. His prediction that the sisters will all be “identical” characters “speaking exposition at each other” turned out to be wildly off. His final observation, that powerful people aren’t good or evil, they’re powerful, rings true. Damien is a smart guy, but it seems to me that the latter 4 episodes line up pretty well with this viewpoint. If Damien is upset with corporate takeovers of storytelling, perhaps he should witness the forest through the trees and admit that capitalism itself, with its profit motive, not how people choose to act within that limiting framework, is the real root social problem he should be angry at. He’s definitely right that kids should not be allowed to inherent their parent’s authorship, but again, the considerations there are not purely motivated by story. How could they be, as long as artificial scarcity is forced upon us?

[@DamienWalter]

It was totally naff. They wrote the whole thing for no better cause than to have a Voice vs Voice off.

[@SpiderMonkeyElf]

@ if you aren’t going to engage with the substance of what I said, why engage at all?

[@marshalsea000]

Oh thank you! Those non-Frank Herbert Dune books are rubbish and it's about time someone else was really broadcasting it. And to be fair to them, as crap as they are there's an awful lot worse sci-fi books out there.

[@main_sequence]

This show is a massive disappointment. All they had to do is follow Villeneuve's lead, but i'm sure the writer's room thought they could do better. The dialog and performances are so flat. There's no magic, no mystery on the screen. It feels like a CW show.

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

Villeneuve has the original books for story, theme, dialogue. This show has his son's books. His son did not take the loamy compost of his father's work and in it plant new seeds to grow new nourishing food, he extruded the compost into food-like shapes and served this up.

[@TTG-w5c]

I don't always agree with you, unfortunately I have to agree they don't get it. They could have made it controversial, but they committed the ultimate sin, they made it boring.

[@MatsubaAgeha]

• • • • • NOT AGAIN. 😑💧