Jacob Hansen | The Nature of God and Christ in The Book of Mormon.

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In this episode with Hayden and Producer Chris get existential with Jacob Hansen from ‪@thoughtfulfaith2020‬ looking to The Book of Mormon for answers.
The Stick of Joseph KZbin channel seeks to make the Book of Mormon accessible to all ages by making engaging, entertaining and informative content.
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[@ElizabethPearch]

I agree Jacob. Now what about after establishing a belief and understanding of the Restoration? I left the church for more than 20 years. When I came back, I spent all my time building my beliefand testimony from the bottom up, like you said. After going through the logic of the steps you mention, the next big "leap" for me was the Second Coming of Christ. I remember early in my reactivation thinking "okay, Christ is real. The stories are real. The Book of Mormon is real. Those were real people. It's all real. Now that means Christ is coming again. If that past is real, the future is real." THAT is so hard for me to wrap my tiny brain around. This topic is not one I hear many LDS, in my circles at least, really talk about in depth - or take as seriously and I think might be warrented. And I admit, sometimes I feel a little foolish talking about the Millenium being here soon. It's hard to articulate what I'm thinking. I guess I'd like to talk more about specifically preparing for Christ's return and what that looks like. I'm beyond converstations about wearing garments correctly and other topics about keeping basic commandments and covanants. I'm there. I'm all in already. I want to talk about Christ coming.

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

If you go through the past two to three conferences and reread the prophet and apostles talks, and read the footnotes in their talks, that’s all they are talking about. From what I gather, the millennium is here, those who have prepared their lamps are being invited to witness the greatest miracles. Why is the prophet building temples at such a massive pace? Why is he encouraging and pleading with us to attend often? Christ is manifesting Himself to the pure in heart in His holy houses. He is also “marking” through covenant His people and preparing them for His return. If you go to Matt Jeppson “Spiritual survival for the last days” KZbin, he goes over President Nelson’s pleadings and talks about the Second Coming! It’s real, things are happening right before our eyes! It’s so exciting! Matt Jeppson is a humble guy. An attorney for career, but feels so strongly the Lord is preparing the world. Those with eyes to see. Matt does not claim any special ability or knowledge, but goes over what prophets have been saying about our day. He also encourages us to seek. His posts have lit a fire under me! ❤️🙏🏻☀️ Even though the prophecies of our days are scary, Matt always talks about fear and faith and the amazing love God has for us. Happy to hear you’re back and all in! I believe the wedding feast is not too far off, and we don’t want to miss it! 🔥

[@tdijon7]

I feel this. Deeply. I crave the meat.

[@StaceyMayer]

You're sitting up front with me. ❤❤❤

[@ElizabethPearch]

@@StaceyMayer Yes and amen😊

[@alisonshupe1874]

Read The Triumph of Zion by John Pontius and read putting on Christ by Steven Bishop

[@djenntt]

Read the Book of Mormon when I was 14 and questioned everything. Went to study all the other major religions, and discovered a connection with all of them, but felt something was missing. Returned to the Book of Mormon and got baptized at 33.

[@shibainferno]

Took the scenic route but still found it. Welcome back!

[@StevenRetz]

BoM is my favorite book, it brought me to Yeshua and to His Torah. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJi4nWSimNGNd8U

[@chuckintexas]

I rejected and avoided EVERYTHING "Mormon" until Our Father had PREPARED ME in my life , as HE did YOU . Having been thus *PREPARED* , I was _ready_ when two guys in white shirts & ties knocked on my door . I challenged them to PROVE that what they were teaching was TRUE . As my challenge was itself pure, and that I genuinely conceded that _IF_ so , what _other_ choice COULD I make , but Baptism ? Thus was I prepared to receive The Spirit in my learning - the Spirit of God which those two had brought with them , into my home and into my LIFE ! Thus I resumed the mist wonderful journey of my eternal LIFE !

[@Aaron-SLC]

Youre that naive. Did you actual read the writings of early church fathers?

[@StevenRetz]

@@Aaron-SLC catholic church fathers mix paganism into the religion

[@sophiamcl]

While listening to your discussion about how "opposition or opposites" is a principle woven into the fabric of the universe, it struck me that one could argue that creation is in some ways presented by Mosee as an act of DIFFERENTIATION. God divided the light from the darkness, the land from the sea and so on. Fascinating stuff!

[@thestickofjoseph]

Boom! That is awesome!

[@pythonista466]

Naming it is also important. Nothing is fully differentiated until it is named.

[@holidayrap]

Therefore, let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever. Behold, who can glory too much in the Lord? Yea, who can say too much of his great power, and of his mercy, and of his long-suffering towards the children of men? Behold, I say unto you, I cannot say the smallest part which I feel.

[@BookWarden]

Is that Alma 26?

[@tomaswmitchellphotography]

Considering that the overwhelming majority of Christianity believes in the nature of God as set forth by the Nicene Creed, yes we do believe in a different Jesus.

[@blusheep2]

Thank you for recognizing that and being honest enough to acknowledge it to your peers.

[@tomaswmitchellphotography]

@@blusheep2 you are welcome! I don’t get why more LDS people don’t get it. We simply do not believe in the Trinity, we believe that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct beings. Yes we believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for our sins but we don’t believe He is the Father in human form, our beliefs are more complicated than that.

[@blusheep2]

@@tomaswmitchellphotography Well, and you also believe that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer and if I understand correctly the product of an actual sexual relationship with Mary who is also in the family.

[@caitlinwhite237]

@@blusheep2 the idea that Jesus was born because God had literal intercourse with Mary is not something we believe. I think someone 200 years ago suggested it as a theory but it was never accepted as actual doctrine in any way shape or form. It’s apocrypha and shouldn’t be confused with doctrine. As for Lucifer and Jesus being brothers- that one is a weird talking point that Evangelicals have been pushing for a long time. The actual doctrine is pretty straightforwards. In the Old Testament the angels of heaven are referred to as the sons of God. We are also all spiritual offspring of Heavenly Father. And Christ- along with being a member of the Godhead who created the heavens and the earth- is the only begotten son of the Father in the flesh. Lucifer was an angel before he was cast out of heaven-yes? So in a sense, all of us are spiritual siblings to both Lucifer and Jesus because we are all children of God. That doesn’t denigrate Christ’s divinity, nor does it elevate Lucifer in any way. It’s just how things are. Furthermore- this idea of Christ and Lucifer being born of the same Heavenly Father isn’t something we would specifically focus on as being important. We’re not imagining that it’s the sweet life of Zac and Cody or something with Christ and Lucifer. A better metaphorical comparison would be Cain and Abel. With Satan being comparable to Cain who seeks to destroy his brother so he can get power and glory. But unlike with the story of Cain and Abel- Christ rose from the tomb and because of His atonement all mankind may be saved from both physical and spiritual death. Does that make sense?

[@blusheep2]

@@caitlinwhite237 Your explanation makes sense but along with a few other Mormon beliefs there seems to be quite a bit of inconsistency. Mormons have prophets but when the prophets say something that more modern Mormons find troublesome then it becomes "someone 200 years ago suggested it as a theory," when it wasn't just "someone." It was Brigham Young, the second "prophet" of the Mormon church. Why do Mormons need to be eternally married? Is it not to reach the third level of heaven and so become God's able to "begot" spirit children? Is there an explanation for why "spirit" children would need a couple, in order to be begotten? So, if Jesus and Lucifer are physical or spiritual brothers is irrelevant. They are both sons of god, begotten by the father as spiritual siblings. This kind of belief is incredibly important because it highlights the truth that my Jesus isn't your Jesus though you borrow my stories. This is actually quite an onion with many layers. I like your explanation but I don't think it clarifies much or removes my objections to it. Would you be willing to take it from the beginning so I can learn if there is a consistent narrative or not? It would begin like this: 1. Could you define our ontology(are being). 2. Could you define the father's ontology. 3. Could you compare and contrast our ontology and the father's ontology.

[@westonwoodbury3011]

God’s love doesn’t have a cap!! The great “I’m” is not just loving he is love. Mormons aren’t any better then anyone else, in fact we might be worse off because we have the BOM but Don’t believe it! We overshadow it with the D&C and Manuel’s. The bom teaches Jesus is the eternal God, Jesus is the Eternal Father and they are one God, Jesus is the alpha and omega the beginning and end creator of heaven and earth this is what the bom says! Joseph smiths original first vision account in his own hand writing backs this up. As does the Book of Mormon prior to 1837 , it was even more clear until they made subtle changes Originally read shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. He changed it to lamb of god is the son of the eternal father! Important to note that the Bom still has places throughout where it wasn’t changed Mosiah 15 I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son- 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

They try to tell us we have a different Jesus to deny the fact that Joseph Smith seen Him otherwise i cant understand what part of Him they think is different our Jesus is the one in the bible who prayed to His Father not a strange type of 3 in 1 person

[@HaleStorm49]

In the sense of whether the Mormon Jesus is: More powerfu? More loving? More capable? More knowledgeable? Yes. _Different_ is too vague. Superior? Certainly.

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

Latterday day saints believe in the right Jesus because Joseph Smith seen Him and He is the same Jesus of the bible John ch3 vs16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who soever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life we believe God the Father and GodHis son who is Jesus are 2 seperate people but the same in purpose

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

How are you coming to that conclusion? What is your premise? Jesus of the New Testament is Yahweh. He is part of the Godhead. He is a member of the eternal family of God. He is the creator of all, the Law incarnate, the only source of life, and the only way to connect to God. How is any other understanding above this ontological understanding?

[@kaduyantv2857]

In 3 Nephi 11, Jesus visited the inhabitants of Ancient America. Jesus declare this" Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world." Please read the Book of Mormon, for it testifies of Jesus Christ. ​@@PrairieChristianOutreach

[@HaleStorm49]

@@PrairieChristianOutreach What is the greatest gift that God can give you?

[@germanslice]

@@MarleneKerr-p6x I an confirm that, read Joel 3;14-20 its all there in the bible about where the Lord will be speaking his words from in the last days and what location he will be sending out all his latter-day revelations from it will be from out of Zion and later on from out of Jerusalem. If the Lord was not speaking his voice from out of Zion in the last days as the prophet Joel is telling us he will be doing so then there would be no Restoration of the gospel back on the earth to restore back the prophets again to speak for the Lord in these last days. But the lord has restored back the prophets again and that's why he speak his voice from out of Zion. For Zion was set up to be a standard to the nations. Zion has the Lord's standards.. Zion is that stone kingom that Daniel and john the revelator saw in vision. I can also confirm that its 2 separate people having the same in purpose because Daniel the prophet also saw the two lords appear to him just as Stephen and Joseph saw them and they were talking to him Daniel to face so both the Lords could be seen by Daniel so they were NOT invisible. and one of the two lords picked Daniel up with his own hands so we already know one of the lords already had a resurrected tangible body BEFORE Jesus Christ was even sent to earth to be resurrected in the flesh, someone else had a body of fleseh and bones to interact personally with daniel. And again in Jeremiah Chapter 1 we see the same tangible interaction again when the Lord had touched jeremiah with his finger on Jeremiah's Lip an invisible spirit cannot do that. And this is before the time that Jesus was sent to earth in the flesh.

[@jimwettstein6312]

We must understand that even God the Father must adhere to eternal laws of godhood and the celestial realm, for He is a celestial being. If he doesn't he will no longer be God. Thus, within those encompassing laws, the sinful are lost and cannot return to his presence, UNLESS the Atonement and a Savior was established, which meets the laws of justice, and introduces the laws of mercy that allow Jesus Christ to claim us, and cover our sins, if we repent and embrace his atonement for ourselves. Otherwise we remain fallen and list until we change or pay for our own sins ourselves.

[@Drollls]

Havent seen Jacob much lately😢 Hope his studio is coming along well. Much love

[@charlottegardenhire6408]

When Jacob was talking about the “First Apostasy” I couldn’t help but think how that first apostasy created the conditions for Jesus to be crucified. Such a necessarily thing out of something so tragic. God sure does work on mysterious ways and turns all things for our good.

[@thekolobsociety]

Great insight.

[@anvldiy28]

And how the second apostasy was needed to usher in the restoration. And how this last apostasy will be required to usher in The Christ.

[@julieelliott9797]

Oh, wow! Yes!

[@pythonista466]

Another interesting parallel is between the relative religious freedom enforced by the Roman empire at the time of Christ and that provided by the US constitution. Christianity would not have survived during Josiah's reign, and the restored Church would not have survived in 17th century France.

[@casadelswain434]

@@pythonista466 so very true sir! Love when things align and we see the workings for the very purposes of the Lord.

[@UtahKent]

Jacob gets the Calvinists. I wish he had an hour to just discuss the monstrous implications of 5 point Calvinism.

[@BookWarden]

Yes! I recently found Jacob Hansen on KZbin, originally from a debate between him and Hayden Carroll and Apologia. I enjoy when you have visitors on. BTW, when are you guys going to get David Alexander or David Boice on?(No offense intended)

[@rconger24]

Yes David Alexander

[@BookWarden]

By the way, @thestickofjoseph, is the docuseries out already, like on netflix or something? We don't have much streaming services, so I don't know where it would come out on. keep up the great work!

[@chuckintexas]

I rejected and avoided EVERYTHING "Mormon" until Our Father had PREPARED ME in my life , as HE did YOU . Having been thus *PREPARED* , I was _ready_ when two guys in white shirts & ties knocked on my door . I challenged them to PROVE that what they were teaching was TRUE . As my challenge was itself pure, and that I genuinely conceded that _IF_ so , what _other_ choice COULD I make , but Baptism ? Thus was I prepared to receive The Spirit in my learning - the Spirit of God which those two had brought with them , into my home and into my LIFE ! Thus I resumed the mist wonderful journey of my eternal LIFE !

[@blusheep2]

So how did they go about "proving" that what they were teaching was real?

[@matthewhunter6421]

Why are you capitalizing random words?

[@karcxus7312]

This is the best thing I’ve heard in a long time.

[@Jamo12]

Faith, hope, charity. In order, those are the answer. Each section of temple correlates to those. Those are the steps to unity. Those are the steps to become celestial. Faith is needed for the covenants. The covenants give us hope. The fruit of that hope is charity. It will come from every pore if we fully submit and it will sanctify.

[@handson2022]

Loved this conversation. It has been so fulfilling the last couple years for me to learn more about the various philosophical problems and how our theology addresses them, as taught in the Book of Mormon. The restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith is truly a marvelous work and a wonder. Loved everything shared here!

[@kaduyantv2857]

In the Book of Mormon we read in 3 Nephi 11:14, eye witnesses heard and recorded this words from Jesus "Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world."

[@harmonillustration]

I watch/listen to a lot of LDS content here on KZbin. Stick of Joseph, Thoughtful Faith, Ward Radio, Saints Unscripted, etc. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say this: This episode/discussion was one of the BEST things I have heard in a WHILE! Thank you! This was absolutely amazing! Now when an Evangelical tells me that I worship a "different Jesus", I'm going to respond with a "Yes, I do! Thank God!"

[@brendamartin3444]

In the 90’s I explained to my four sons that the word “God” in heaven, is like the word “Eagle Scout” on earth, the process is the same… Jesus Christ was just the first of all us Children of Heavenly Father to get his eagle, the rest of us are all attempting to follow him and get ours too I then asked my boys… so what was Christ’s Eagle Scout project…

[@pythonista466]

Christ's eagle scout project is us: the gathering of God's children back to his home and ours. It is a group effort and is taking a lot more than 24 man-hours.😅

[@MartinLizamaMioni]

For me the basic theme and testimony of The Book of Mormon is the Atonement of Jesus Christ, He is the way to return to our heavenly home, to the Kingdom of God.

[@UVJ_Scott]

The only thing that ultimately matters is, how do I change, absolutely change, my personality, my point of view, my thinking, my whole being, to become like Christ? Any attempt to give up on faith is simply a way to avoid the necessary change. As CS Lewis stated, “The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self-all your wishes and precautions-to Christ.” But it is far easier than what we are all trying to do instead.”

[@wtaylordurrant]

Remember there was only one plan presented. Lucifer rebelled against that plan and wanted the power and glory.

[@John-jh999]

Wake up people, "Mormons" preach the spirit of prophecy. WE CAN KNOW JESUS CHRIST!

[@jamesbrooks3664]

False sorry not sorry.

[@John-jh999]

@@jamesbrooks3664your disbelief doesn't change anything my friend

[@pythonista466]

​​@@jamesbrooks3664what is false? That Mormons preach the spirit of prophecy? Or that we can know Jesus? The first you can verify by simply examining the doctrine. The second you can verify by living it. John 7:17 John 17:3

[@rconger24]

10:15. "Spirituality" is a sandy foundation. 16:11 ;) 23:05 _anti ex-nihilo_ 32:20 different Jesus 35:30 _two_ great apostacies 41:44 submission to the will of God / Segway to covenant making 45:10 An inner change in each person that "subverts the need for the kingdoms of men. 48:00 together and playing the songs of zion.

[@tammigarlick1234]

One of the best discussions I’ve ever listened to! Brilliant!

[@anichols2760]

Great discussion and presentation. I felt the Spirit and extreme charity filled me while listening. I had an additional thought based on my own life experiences. As much as I have loved people in my heart, i have had occasions where church leaders, family who were church leaders and other members did not have the Spirit of Charity and Christs oneness and instead have exhibited elements of pride in a way that have hurt me tremendously. Ive also seen others poorly mistreated on occasion. I bring this up because i was brought up in a family culture where leaders were placed on pedestals which has away of tearing apart ones mental and emotional reality when leaders and/or members dont act in Christian-like ways. I bring this up in hopes that others like me wont struggle when a leader exhibits natural-man-like tendencies. The scripture "many are called but few are chosen" from d&c section 121 indicates that we place our faith in Christ and not in men. In doing so we allow Christ to rule over our hearts and spirits which provides grace that enables us to pray for leaders when they are weak. Reminds me of Moses when he had servants holding up his hands so they could prevail in battle. When he was weak the progress of the battle failed but when his hands were raised the children of Israel gained the upper hand. Supporting weak leaders who fail us and a ward or stake demonstrates our commitment to have the mindset and compassion of the Lord. But for heavens sake, i hope no other member experiences the pain, heartache, and horrific results that i have suffered due to several weak, uninspired, and uncaring leaders who acted as hirelings rather than as shepherds. I had to learn to pray for them. So i think the Lords judgment begins in his own house as he attempts to clean up some of the pride, ego, and lack of love of those who he allowed to be called but who took no effort in becoming chosen by neglecting desires to seek the Lords will and develop the Lords attributes.

[@thestickofjoseph]

Thanks for sharing!

[@andrewbfrost7021]

The other restored doctrine that solves the problem of evil is the doctrine of the pre-mortal realm. That doctrine solves the problem of evil through consent. We consented to the conditions of life and the suffering that would come with it. The restored gospel is amazing.

[@StaceyMayer]

Exactly! Amen.

[@roachemani]

yes my exact thoughts as well. There’s a saying that ‘you can’t taste the sweet without the bitter’ implying that we can’t know happiness without misery or suffering. If only the world had an open mind and heart to the simple plain doctrines of Christs gospel, life would become less miserable and more hopeful and comprehensible.

[@ItsSnagret]

In addition to consent, we are coeternal with God as intelligences. This means he didn’t create our fundamental essence, and thus we are responsible for our agency.

[@andrewbfrost7021]

@@ItsSnagret I like it.

[@tgrogan6049]

It "solves" the problem by making up a solution with no evidence for it. It causes other problems.

[@amandaspencer4686]

I love Jacob Hansen. He is one of the 1st ppl I started listening to when I was struggling with my testimony & so many times his videos were an answer to very specific prayers. And this video is no exception. Thank you, Chris, for your comments about those who are struggling to submit to God. Those words have been so much on my heart the last few years, weeks, and even specifically days as we've been reading in Mosiah. Thank you so much. Love & appreciate you all, and love this channel so, so much. Can't wait until I get my hand on & mind in The Language of Adam.

[@SkyCandyDigitalCinema]

So glad you commented and you're here Amanda!

[@gbengoosewuru4139]

Non-LDS Christians dont believe in a different Jesus. They just dont know him as well as LDS do. Because we know him so well, they think it's a different Jesus.

[@Azriel640]

I have that same view. We just know more about Him and invite others to do the same

[@chuckintexas]

Simple and to the point. Well said .

[@tomaswmitchellphotography]

To some extent I disagree. They believe in the Trinity, we don’t. They believe Jesus was the earthly manifestation of God on earth, we don’t. They can not explain the nature of God and Christ, we can. Yes we both worship a Jesus that suffered and died on the cross for our sins but they worship a Christ who is the same being as the Father, we worship a Christ who is the spiritual and earthly Son of the Father. We worship a different Jesus than they do. Just accept it for what it is and why they don’t like us.

[@readwriter]

Dear 2050's: When you get around to it, please consider Jacob Hansen for 1st Prez.

[@casadelswain434]

@@readwriter if we’re not in Zion way before then, we are in serious trouble. While I appreciate Bro. Hansen and this channel, we won’t need this, the Savior will be leading us.

[@godsoffspring4195]

Zion = FAMILY :>)

[@connorbrown1603]

I don't know how I just found your channel this week, but I have loved every second. Ingested a huge chunk of your content for the last 7 days. Grateful you guys' are having these conversations and filling these spaces with such positive and thoughtful content.

[@captainsirk1173]

I’m kind of surprised that so many evangelicals jump on stuff like Jesus being satan’s brother when one of the implications of our doctrine is the idea that there are some things that God just can’t do. You’d think that’d be more controversial, but maybe it has the advantage of being self evident. God couldn’t save mankind without sending Jesus Christ. There are some things that God could not teach us without sending us here. I do have one interesting question for the “God created demons and evil people” crowd.” Do evil people deserve the chance to exist? Would it have been right for God to say, “well I know this person will never be like me, and will never overcome any of the selfish and perverse ideas of their heart, so I guess I just won’t let them live.”

[@HaleStorm49]

They already believe there are things God can't do. Ask them why they don't believe in Exaltation. God either lacks the power or the will.

[@rconger24]

From here the audio is coming just fine. Card carrying Brighamite here. I believe in a "different" Jesus that creates souls that are given a _fair opportunity_ to learn about and recieve Him in a _fair and ethical_ way. I believe in a "different" Jesus that values our soveriegn will or "agency" and that set-up a plan of salvation _respecting_ this trait and that goes to considerable work to preserve it. I believe in a "different" Jesus that does not send his children to hell just for *_being born at the wrong time or place_* when or where they would never even have heared about Him. In short, I believe in a Jesus that gives me a Divine _Informed_ Consent. _CONVERSELY_ I do not believe in a calvanist or westminster "jesus" that would create souls in the hundreds of billions only to torture and destroy them. I cannot imagine that sort of "jesus" producing the goodness and faith in souls necessary to lift the children-of-men out of the _fallen_ condition we find ourselves in.

[@chuckintexas]

Wow . MASYERFULLY stated . Thanks !

[@talea9593]

I'm guessing you're not LDS because we don't believe that Jesus created our souls. God the Father created our souls including Jesus' soul. Jesus is our Brother who died for our sins.

[@JohnSmith-lm9gr]

11:08 finally somone else said it. Lucifer's plan wasn't to make pupits of everyone. No one would agree to that. His plan was do whatever you want. No consequences. Everyone gets a prize. If your choice doesn't matter, did you ever have a choice? No, and that is how he would have destroyed the agency of man. He didn't change his plan when he was rejected. He went to the garden and tried to fulfill the role of the God in giving the fruit to Adam & Eve. Now they are his followers, he gets to be the Savior. He still teaches his plan, if he gets enough people to follow, Father will have to repent. I think that is what he is going for. Strange how too much mercy is no mercy at all. There must be justice, and pain, and consequences. If we stay silent to spare someone's feelings, or give everyone a trophy so they don't feel bad, whose plan are we following.

[@casadelswain434]

@@JohnSmith-lm9gr I want to further your thoughts too. If everyone “wins” because there are no consequences, no rules, everyone gets a prize, then in reality we are all- or at least the huge majority will be- victims of some nature. Victims of violence, unaliving, bullying, cheating, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse. If we follow satan’s plan there are no enticings to be a good moral person. People rarely master their own selves and give in to impulses and the natural man.

[@godsoffspring4195]

The Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that Jesus is the one eternal God who is the principle creator of the earth and it's heaven. There is no other. Neither book says Jesus is the only God in the Universe. In fact... both Books tell us He has a Father!! :>)

[@AnalogKid2112]

Once again, Jacob knocks it out of the park! I like to say “Any intelligent thinking person who takes his religious epistemology seriously will eventually arrive at Latter-day Saint ontology.” As Jacob said, you START with the question of “Who am I?”, then move onto the nature of reality, then the nature of God. If you create a logically coherent framework from this base, it is virtually inevitable to arrive at a view of the world that is in line with the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

[@tgrogan6049]

That is an uninformed statement. Read the book "Deconstructing Mormonism" By Thomas Riskis.

[@AnalogKid2112]

@@tgrogan6049 I disagree. I don’t need to read anything about “deconstructing Mormonism” any more than I need to read a book to prove the earth is flat disk covered with a dome. I have all the evidence I need, plus I already have dozens of books that I really want to read, but just don’t have time for. I prefer to make the most of the limited time I have for constructive study.

[@jessewilson7809]

It's rare that I feel the spirit on KZbin but this upload really got me in the feels. I love the content you guys put out and especially the temple and book of mormon stuff but it was also nice to have an episode like this to help me examine my own spiritual progression a little bit more. Thanks for having Jacob Hansen on. It was a very edifying video

[@thestickofjoseph]

Glad to hear it!

[@pythonista466]

Rare to feel the Spirit on KZbin? Hmm. That used to be me. As I changed what I watched, however, I felt it more and more. Now I feel it every day. When I occasionally look back, I am surprised that I ever wanted to watch that stuff. Good. Better. Best.

[@michaeljhuntsman]

At ~36 minute mark, when you're talking about when Lehi and his family left Jerusalem... if you've ever read 1 Nephi chapter 1 (a little humor here), and ponder the response of the Jews when Lehi preached to them about "the coming of a Messiah, and also the redemption of the world"... "when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away" you realize that long before Lehi's time, throughout millenia, the Jews were in apostasy.. that the plain and simple truths had been removed from the Old Testament... This should be obvious when we read from 1 Nephi to Alma Chapter 37, verse 33 and beyond, when the Prophets, years before Christ is born, THEY MENTION HIM BY NAME, 33 "Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ." In Lehi's time, the Satan-inspired Jews, despised when Lehi mentioned The Messiah.They would have roiled even more had he mentioned that the Messiah's name is Jesus Christ.

[@kevinparkin3322]

The Book of Mormon was written by 4 families: Lehi's family circa 600 to 500 BC, Mosiah's family circa 100 BC to 200 AD, Mormon's family circa 400 AD, Jared's family circa unknown. These family writers included 1) events 2) observations about those events 3) insights from their experiences and from prior prophets and scripture 4) analysis of commandments and analysis of obedience to commandments 5) temple ordinances (craftily cloked) and insight into those ordinances 6) Jesus as Savior, Mediator and Advocate. Regardless of the specific identity and authorship of the writers, these 6 features are profound to anyone sensitive to profundities.

[@kevinparkin3322]

Minute 34:00. This is the first KZbin discussion to mention Plato's concept of God. Cudos. Plato argued that since God is perfect and since nothing in the material world is / can be perfect, therefore God is not material. This is the classic 'since / therefore' sentence. A+B=C. Constantine's 4th century group of clergy, lead by Athanasius, wrote the Nicean Creed after the philisophy of Plato. But, in the immortal words of Neal Maxwell, "What was intended as a compliment turned out to be an insult." Unimaginable to Plato's mind, God - as a material being - had achieved perfection. Mic drop. The April 8, 1966 cover of Time magazine reads: Is God Dead? Truman Madsen answered the question with: "Yes, your God is dead; in fact, He was never alive." Meantime, the God of the Book of Mormon is 1) perfect 2) material 3) alive. Now, that is a God that I want to know about.

[@CuriousThinker1776]

At the 15:40 mark, Jacob says people are falling away and lumps Baptists with atheists and vague spiritualists and says they lack the foundation in Christ. Is he saying he doesn't think Baptists are Christians? BTW, I am LDS , not Baptist. I am just confused how he groups them together like that.

[@oooee]

If you liked Covey's 7 Habits, you should read Covey's The Divine Center which explains the habits in the context of the Gospel.

[@yippiecalle421]

This video was great and made me realize. I think as members of the church we need to periodically take a spiritual audit. Go through the Questions in Alma 5 and ask ourselves if the things we know and feel to be true, “can ye feel so now”. And if we don’t maybe start from the fundamentals again.

[@Mrs.Watcher]

I just watched a video today about Christianity in Japan in the early 1600's. And something really stick out to me that relates to this discussion. And I'm paraphrasing here, but the leaders in Japan seeking to eradicate the Christians basically Said "Your Christian God created all the suffering on earth, no wonder you nailed him to a cross and killed him" This stuck out to me because of the irony that Christ would give his life for our suffering, at the hands of people taking his life for our suffering.

[@outof_obscurity]

34:00 yes I agree. It's more so the old testament that was lost. It's pretty obvious when reading the new testament they had other books of scripture they quote in the nt we don't have today to refer to.

[@pythonista466]

1:00:02 He also experienced either a) having only daughters (not a bad thing) or b) having a son who was not worthy to carry on the priesthood legacy (heart wrenching).

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

The book of mormon and the bible are the word of God no way could Joseph Smith could have made it up if you REALLY believe the bible you also would believe the book of mormon

[@gustavoabalos3783]

Jacob a great men, lives up to his name very well!!!!

[@pythonista466]

Supplanter??? Oh. I guess it can also mean "to follow" or "may God protect".

[@garrymoss8021]

Have you seen the haters who hate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Yes, it is obvious to me that I definitely have a different Jesus than they do, nor would I ever consider following that kind of Jesus.

[@ItsSnagret]

Yes! I don’t want to follow their monster of Jesus

[@raintech8553]

This is all part of the deception. The devil will always downgrade us. while our Father will always say there is more. Up to us

[@doghousr3534]

Love this quote by President Spencer W. Kimball: “I have learned that where there is a prayerful heart, a hungering after righteousness, a forsaking of sins, and obedience to the commandments of God, the Lord pours out more and more light until there is finally power to pierce the heavenly veil and to know more than man knows. A person of such righteousness has the priceless promise that one day he shall see the Lord’s face and know that he is.” (“Give the Lord Your Loyalty,” Ensign, Mar. 1980, p. 4.)

[@derek_davidson]

Anybody else not have audio?

[@thestickofjoseph]

Reload the page. Sometimes it does that if you are one of the first to click.

[@MemyzelphandI]

You're lucky!

[@tracys9265]

I love the symphony analogy! We can all play whatever we want, but if we play together according to the sheet music, we can make a beautifully harmonic symphony. 💕

[@DannyAGray]

This is deaf defining!

[@thestickofjoseph]

Reload the page. Sometimes it does that if you are one of the first to click.

[@CatchTheBuzz1]

30:18 Just wow. I don't want to feel the fire in a bad way around this guy. A bit far to say the least. This is actually very sad

[@thestickofjoseph]

please explain more. I don't really understand.

[@CatchTheBuzz1]

@@thestickofjoseph The guy who was saying the f word when he was talking about God in like the same sentence. Yikes. Right before this 30-minute Mark

[@Tofflemire5]

They believe in the correct one. If you believe in a God and Christ different than the LDS, read and study more.

[@elizabethpeterson9914]

Excellent episode!

[@sabrinamacey1422]

Great conversation. Many validating talking points.

[@woodwarddlw]

I was certified by John Covey, Stephen's brother who help him develop the 7 habits. When John found out I was a member, he pulled me aside and told me the 7 habits are the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[@kenton6804]

When is Jacob going to write a book?

[@nancylowe2692]

Can you imagine the joy of brotherhood & sisterhood we hsve ahead? To meet & talk to Prophets & faithful from the beginning of time up to the present!

[@misssue1824]

Fascinating discussion. No wonder God is one.

[@zionmama150]

23:40 although, Christ did say that he is the “law”…

[@TylerChapman-sh7jc]

I did not want this episode to end

[@WhabandSheeb]

Minor historical correction Hayden, there was only The Father's plan, and Satan was opposed to The Father's plan. Satan did not propose "a plan". He opposed The Ftaher's plan. I do believe Satan's idea was to get rid of standards so we end up in the same place. Sorry to be nit-picky.

[@KC12248]

My Mormon friends tell me they believe in Jesus of Nazareth which is the same Jesus that all other Christians believe. Just because one Christian sect believes differently doesn’t mean that others should then say they believe in a different Jesus. They just believe in different principles than you do! That’s it! Christians all of sects/faiths should be rallying together right now and not dividing given the world we are living in!!

[@richarner3856]

The LDS Jesus had to earn his way to Godhood like all the other gods before him.. John 1:1-3 shows us who Jesus truly is❤

[@BrentSohlden]

Jesus is both

[@BrentSohlden]

But satan's firstborn son does go out there deceiving many Believers. This copycat Jesus deceives many churches

[@BrentSohlden]

Son not sin

[@BrentSohlden]

We will not be big G gods

[@dmoney4075]

There were not two plans, there was one plan and Satan rebelled, satan did not have a plan.

[@chuckintexas]

"Getting rid of standards ..." I'd never considered _that_ , my free will being so important to me . Not sacrificing my testimony of Moral Agency on the altar of personal speculation, I see also the place in truth - for the concept of the removal of standards in the Doctrine of The Fall - an extension of the Fall in the pre-existent War against God , and against US .

[@troymeacham8001]

We all need to condescend our neighbors and communities and serve as God does for all of use.

[@smirg1591]

Thank you for sharing this thought provoking and uplifting conversation. More please!

[@tgrogan6049]

So in Mormonism there is no "God" as traditionally defined in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The Mormon "God" did not create everything and therefore cannot know everything. How does the Mormon god know that there is not another "Higher God" who did create everything out of nothing? The Mormon "God" could learn new things about what people are doing because of human "free will" and therefore could change his mind right? Perhaps the Mormon "God" will decide to change "the entire plan of salvation"? How is the Mormon "God" any different from a powerful space alien? The Mormon "God" is not all knowing, not all powerful, not unchangeable, subject to some "natural laws" that it did not create and therefore cannot know exhaustively. Why worship this glorified "space alien"?

[@tgrogan6049]

The Universe was not created at all it evolved and we live almost 14 billion years after it formed. It was not made for people who then sinned and started the Second Law of Thermodynamics or something. It is full of suffering because life forms like everything else in the Universe are time bound structures. Making up unevidenced stories to make yourself "feel better" is not the way forward. Atheists like me never describe the world as "fallen" as Jacob likes to say. We accept that it was not made for us and try our best to reduce human suffering without mythology.

[@hungryjoebbq]

Loved this episode! Another one that basically confirms the thoughts and feelings I've been having myself as of late! Love this channel and how much goodness you guys are spreading! I keep wanting to write novels of my own thoughts and experiences and how they relate to these videos in these comment sections, but I think it's just enough to say thank you!

[@deborahclark6264]

Thank you for questions, insights and your beautiful testimonies. I have been enlighten and edified.

[@Bloomsewing_studio]

Wow never been the first to the video or the comments.

[@patriciafinn5717]

Good ols jacob.loving the sound of his voice..no one else does..hey dis you.spy on that sister and report her?? Nor very.christan jacob..one day jacob will be prophet!!! 😅

[@pythonista466]

55:46 Moroni 8:17 written by Mormon. One guess at the meaning of the name Mormon is "enduring or everlasting love". Imagine if we called this book The Book of God's Everlasting Love-Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

[@pythonista466]

32:48 scholars would say we have a different Christology-our understanding of his nature, what he did, and how he saves us. People have been debating these questions for centuries. Then Joseph Smith came and said, "Presbyterianism isn't true: I saw the Lord and he told me. He answered all of these important questions. Stop arguing and follow him."

[@w4114w]

What is this there were 2 plans put forward? There was no Satans plan and Gods plan. There was only 1 plan and that was Heavenly Father’s plan! Lucifer wanted to modify that plan by changing one part of it which involves Agency.

[@AnthonyYandow]

Take a look at "The Ancient Tradition" podcast. Id like to hear your take on it. I love Jacob's perspective on most things. Thanks for having him on.

[@eternalskywalker9440]

Brother Covey wrote another book before 7 Habits. It was called Spiritual Roots of Human Relationships. Same principles. Not nearly as popular.

[@Hawkquill]

A few hundred years ago the catholic church would force people to be Christian literally by the edge of the sword 🗡️. We know if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden in the presence of God, they would of been in a great place but never realised it because they knew nothing else. You have to experience hell to appreciate heaven, then you now know that being with God is the best place. The more evil you experience wicked acts of others as well as bad decisions the more grateful you are for Christ atonement and forgiveness. Christ said to Peter he that is forgiven little loveth little, but he that's forgiven much loveth much. For an atheist what dose the world and it's philosophy offer you after death? Nothing. What dose Christ offer? Everything! The atheist point of view is if when you die there's nothing you no longer exist, then there's no point in being good, do whatever makes you happy. That makes sense if life don't carry on after death. Being good and living a virtuous moral life is only worth it if life continues beyond the grave. I have fortunately had out of body experiences so I know life outside the body is real. So my progression can continue until eventually I become Christ like and live in an environment with people who have attained that level of existence. Where joy reigns and peace abides. Evil exist that's a fact and as long as people believe it works for them they will do it, ie murder to get gain for instance. Stealing, adultery telling a lie can have financial benefits. God did not create it, it's always been, satan did not create it. It's a tool Satan use's to separate us from God. Because it's the only way he can hurt the Father for not choosing him and his plan. You hurt me I'm going to hurt you! It's the only way he can do it as he has no power to harm the Father any other way. Intelligence cannot be created so God did not create Satan he always existed. Although God did give him a body but had nothing to do with his choices. So John Larson don't have a clue! D&C 93:29-33 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. 31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. 32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; The elements are eternal, so God has connected them together that man might have a fullness of joy. John Larson obviously don't! Why not? Because he received not the light. Therefore in darkness and cannot see. Therefore ignorant, the light blinds them and their anger turns to rage, and like Satan they fight against God continually. Larson and especially John Dehlin are great examples of Satan. Dehlin destroys peoples spirituality ie separating them from God and therefore exaltation and eternal life, then has the audacity to make money from it! Spiritual murder to get gain who taught that to Cain? Alot to unpack with those verses, but 93 is worth reading. Philosophy is of men who can never come together and unite. There will be many willing to teach you the phylosophies of men mingled with scripture. Who said that? Satan and unfortunately it represents other Christian faiths its why there are so many as it derives from the opinions or philosophy of men mingled with scripture. Well great show I think it will help people with a faith crisis or an atheist looking for meaning. As life without God has no meaning therefore no purpose!!!

[@KimballCody]

The Book of Mormon Jesus is NOT Our brother Progressing Subordinate He IS: The Eternal Father Unchanging The Creator of Everything

[@jessekoeven3757]

In accordance with all of revealed scripture, not just the Book of Mormon, we believe that Jesus Christ IS the firstborn of our Father and His Father, and that the Father is greater than him. That he progressed in eternity even as he progressed in life, and lastly, that under the direction and with the authority of the Father he created all things, even as the God Jehovah.

[@BishopofBayeux]

Great discussion thank you. Around the 46 min mark you were discussing the kingdom of heaven. It was said that it is a utopian vision. I don’t like this but I can accept it. As was pointed out, modern attempts at utopia have ended in violence. I see a modern attempt in full swing in our education system. D.E.I. Is neo Marxism. When I speak with advocates for this ideology they clearly state that government systems need to be in place to change society. Exactly as was said in your discussion. I find it so interesting that this ideology professes to desire a society where everyone loves and accepts each other but they believe that can achieve it through force. I love D&C 121:37 authority is s lost when an individual exercises control, dominion or compulsion on others. I appreciated Luke 17:21 that the kingdom is in our hearts. It happens from the inside out. Why is it that many people truly desire the peace and love of the kingdom yet refuse to even entertain the idea of Christ and organized religion?

[@richardallen383]

Very nice discussion. My life experience was heavy on manifestations of the Holy Ghost which greatly overshadowed seeming injustices in the world that God didn’t seem to rectify in the present. I find it curious that there are those who say God wouldn’t act in certain ways and therefore he doesn’t exist, or otherwise limit God by some other similar type of conditional action or lack thereof. They are free agents and, of their own independent will, can choose to do good to others as a means to rectify evil on their own. If they would do that, they would start to understand why God acts as he does and start seeing God carries out his will by using average people who want to follow God.

[@pythonista466]

40:14 re: bringing the kingdom of heaven down to earth. Dave Butler argues that Jacob 5 is all about bringing the heavenly tree of life to earth. It is interesting that the tree can also represent the throne that Christ sits on. Hmmm.

[@TheAwakening-cl8tn]

Definition of Light: Is a form of energy that makes it possible to see. (This is not what I believe is a good definition of light.) Definition of Dark: The Absence of Light. God created all good, not evil.

[@BrentSohlden]

Only RLDS and other valid Restoration sects are Christians. All other sects are Believers only. But the Bible also makes great promises to Believers. All their sins are remitted. Retorationists have the only repentance

[@pythonista466]

1:02:15 the journey is not a travel log. It is a temple structure that parallels the visions. 2 Nephi is a legal document that will be used in the last day to judge everyone in this dispensation.

[@lornaboot3924]

There were not two plans though. There was only the Father’s plan which Lucifer rebelled against.

[@pfoxworth7]

If I understood correctly I disagree with the aspect that God had a hand in whether or not we would be successful due to the talents he gave us. As the prophet Joseph stated, God created us and gave us principals to follow to add intelligence unto ourselves. The more obedient we were to those principals the more intelligence we added and the more like God we became. The characteristics we gained in the premortal life bless us here just as what we do on earth will help in the next life.

[@sevilnatas]

I believe Mormonism teaches that Satan didn't think the test of one's life was fair to the spirits let loose upon earth, because this requirement was not equal to the requirements of the spirits remaining on home planet and the only differentiating the two was the fact that the former were placed on earth, without them being allowed to participate in that decision. When you critically think about it, that seems like pretty consistent and sound logic. I am not sure that the ideas you are trying to add to the text is really relevant or appropriate. Seems like you are saying you know the mind of god, which is something I wouldn't presume to think, but you do you.

[@purpleboye_]

No sound

[@thestickofjoseph]

Reload the page. Sometimes it does that if you are one of the first to click.

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

You do a good job Jacob but to do this job remember you will need prayer and humility dayly and guidance 🙏 from the Holy spirit

[@wtaylordurrant]

Listen to the Unshaken Saints Podcast if you want to understand the concept of proving contraries.

[@sevilnatas]

I think the issue with Mormons is that I don't think they are dealing with actual truth here, I think they are dealing with their own psychology here, and their just saying this is god.

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

The bible means the trinity is 3 in one in purpose is clear in the bible that Jesus and His Father and the Holy Spirit are 3 seperate beings Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones and the holy spirit has a body of spirit

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

Latterday saints have the right Jesus because Joseph Smith seen Him and Hes the same Jesus as the bible that was sacrificed on the cross and rose again