Was Jesus Edited From The Old Testament? - Mike Day on Jerusalem at The Time of Lehi.

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In this episode of the "Ask the Experts Interview Series" the Paul brothers interview Mike Day about the extensive research and study he has done on the religious state of Jerusalem at the time of Lehi. We also dive into the textual evidences found in the BOM that Joseph Smith never would have known!
Mike is a PHD candidate and he specializes in Ancient Greek, Hebrew and Old Testament studies. He also has an amazing podcast of his own where he provides in depth studies each week of Come Follow Me alongside his colleague Bryce Dunford.
The Stick of Joseph KZbin channel seeks to make the Book of Mormon accessible to all ages by making engaging, entertaining and informative content.
Like, subscribe and follow us on Instagram under the handle of ‪@thestickofjoseph‬
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[@whitneypay515]

They way he talks about the love between mother and child is so true. I didn’t understand Heavenly Father’s love for me until I became a mom.

[@csluau5913]

I think that it is a key*to understanding our creator that we must first become parents ourselves. Until we do, our knowledge cannot be complete about the love of a parent for their child and their spouse. Now I’m waiting for my kids to get older and have their own children so I can become a grandparent and the circle will almost be complete.

[@lindamartinez7006]

I can see the garden of Eden for sure being a temple. And Jesus is the tree of life. The ending in revelation is of course the celestial degree of glory and of course it is book ends. We see the tree of life for sure Jesus Christ. The living water . What do you want? Try what is wanted ? What is wanted ? Do you know?to converse with the Lord through the veil. Meaning through Jesus you come to the father . No man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. What is the love of God? It is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave his only gotten Son. That who so ever believeth shall not perish but have ever lasting life. . All things point to Jesus Christ . Don’t get off the mark guys.

[@lindamartinez7006]

We love our families and our children. A mothers love is of course more christ like then anything . When showing what the tree of life means of course they will show Mary holding Jesus. The baby Jesus Mary is holding in her arms is the tree of life. Mary is not the tree of life fellas . If that isn’t clear enough for you then Nephi is told to look . What does he see? If this isn’t easy enough for you ? Nephi sees Jesus his mission his life his trial his healing the sick and blind and healing leopards and all manner of disease and sickness. The last supper . Jesus dying on the cross . Jesus being resurrected . How more plain and simple can it get guys who the tree of life is. The bread of life living water . Mary is not the tree of life . Mary is a mortal who needs her Lord and savior just like we all Do. Jesus gives us life . Don’t make something so simple complicated. Nephi sees the New Testament teachings. Jesus birth his whole life his ministry and His death and resurrection . This isn’t hard to understand at all.

[@daverome1142]

Very true. Having kids helps you understand so much about the gospel. The love of God being at the top of that list.

[@jenniferwallace8161]

@@lindamartinez7006 the Book of Mormon clearly states that Jesus is the FRUIT of the tree of life.

[@Glissandola]

I was so hungry for this conversation and I didn't realize it until I heard it. Thank you for all the wonderful insights and new ways of understanding the scriptures! 💚

[@kevinedward118]

If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. There are online services Sundays at 830, 10 and 1130 EST

[@themessingerrealtygroup4688]

I have been listening to One for Israel pod casts for the last couple of years. They are Messianic Jews, they have opened my eyes to Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, they do a beautiful job. One of they did a multi lecture/ discussion on the history of the Pharisee’s and what they were doing with the law of Moses and the additions made by them. I highly recommend those discussions as well.

[@torresf999]

Do you remember what is the name of that discussion?

[@bobettepage4440]

I have been listening to Amir and One for Israel for almost 4 years. He is an evangelical and after many years started really bashing the “Mormon” Church. Then some of the other evangelical ministers started doing the same thing. They are also telling everyone that they won’t live through the tribulation which is NOT what Jesus says. They also do not believe in baptism. I feel that they are teaching a lot of truth and the. Throw in some untruths that are actually going to cause huge problems for his thousands of followers that aren’t prepared physically or spiritually. He has helped me to understand the Bible better through understanding what it means in Hebrew.

[@Susan-ub2iz]

Svelte

[@davidrenfroe8985]

"Similar beliefs in other religions in 600 BC". Sure, check out Zorarastrianism of Persia at this time period. Ahura-mazda great spirit. If you think that there was one original truth, then multiple apostatises, we can find elements of truth in all religions. Then in this restoration the true elements are brought together. We are not talking about the restoration of pure Christianity and its apostasy, this is about the restoration of the proto-religion, the beginning of all things. How crazy to think that I have stumbled onto the truth. But yes, this is it. I try and circle out from our church and look at other religions and ask myself again, is this it? I am constantly reconverted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It provides salvation of all people. No other religion does this. Try and unpack just the name of the church. That is a fun exercise. Amazing.

[@Richard_Rz]

Im a Traditionalist/Originalst Christian amd I enjoy seeing you guys searching for Truth. I hope youre also open to believing how the Bible is beyond real. May God bless you guys. Not everyone who disagrees with you hates you!! ❤

[@BrotherEvansLDS]

I hope our assertion the Bible isn't inerrant doesn't lead you to believe we don't believe the Bible. We believe the Bible. We study from the KJV in English in particular. We hold it up alongside the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible. But we also believe church leaders, Latter-day Prophets, etc. are also fallible. If we believe everything from holy scripture to the words of holy prophets are neither inerrant nor infallible, are we just faithless wanderers? No. We believe in the gift and power of the Holy Ghost to teach us truth, to help us discern between truth and error. What this challenge does is it puts the onus back on us as individual disciples to become familiar with the word of God in all its complexities and to learn the voice of God for ourselves. We will all make mistakes along the way, but I have had enough experiences to know God is real, Jesus Christ is Savior, and that the Book of Mormon and Bible are true in part because they testify of Them. I know this because of the power of the Holy Ghost which teaches us all things (John 14:26). I appreciate and admire what Christian and biblical scholars, philosophers, and other disciples have done. I devour books from other Christian authors because they can provide perspectives outside the LDS framework that helps me better understand God. God is clearly guiding people of all faiths. I can read and study from them and it only strengthens my confidence in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and in the Book of Mormon because my faith in those are founded in faith in Jesus Christ.

[@BrotherEvansLDS]

When Jesus appears in the Book of Mormon, the first thing he does is testify of His divine role, then He dispels some of the confusion that existed at the time. He makes plain what His doctrine is, again affirming it is centered around His divine role, and that through believing in Him and is baptized shall be saved and inherit the Kingdom of God. He comments that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against those who build upon this doctrine (3 Nephi 11:39) but not to proclaim anything more or less than that as His doctrine. This means, yes, there can be more to God's word than the doctrine of Christ. That is the foundation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claim is that we have the simple doctrine of Christ, the authority to baptize in His name, and we've been given more on top of that foundation and that is our offer to the world.

[@MrTysonHuges]

Mike day came to our stake for the tabernacle. I absolutly loved his talk and now I listen to his podcast for come follow me and its amazing!

[@BrettNoel]

I recently started watching some of your videos here at The Stick of Joseph. I've been listening to Mike Day and Bryce Dunford for some time now on their Talking Scripture podcasts. When I stumbled upon the Talking Scripture podcast 73 with Dave Butler I fell in love with Dave's 2 books, and I am looking forward to the next book soon! I also wanted to give a BIG THANK YOU to Mike Day. I watched this video Jesus being edited from the Old Testament yesterday(May 15, 2024). I have heard the pun on the name of Nephi meaning "Good" before, but the way that it connected with some things that I have been studying about the 3 Nephites in 3rd Nephi 28 for the last 20+ years, some things I was pondering last night about those ideas, and how it all connected..............IT JUST TOTALLY BLEW MY MIND!💥 The Spirit just flooded over me in such a profound way. A dozen or more connections instantly came together! I don't know that I could explain it. One of the recent videos I watched from Mike, he explained an experience he had in trying to verbalize something the Spirit taught him, and people get a glazed look in their eyes. He couldn't explain it, but he knew that it was important! Its like that! I'm trying to write it all out the next day, on how it all came together in my head, but I don't know where to start! Believe it or not, but I think First Nephi 1:1 also ties in with 3 Nephi 28 on translated beings like Enoch, John the Beloved, and the 3 Nephites. Then we have Alma departing in Alma 45, and how they believe he was "...buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses(Alma 45:19)." Or Nephi the son of Helaman departs in 3 Nephi 1. Footnotes point to the possibility that he was translated like Alma. I believe there is much more, but I can't put it into words yet. Again, please pass on my sincerest thanks to Mike Day! YA'LL SO TOTALLY ROCK!

[@safrew1]

As I have read the BofM the last few years I have been amazed to see the Temple ceremony and symbols, and meaning ect, unfold in layer's especially in the first few chapters. I am sure there is SO much more to see. Beautiful!! Thank you for being willing to have these conversations. I am learning so much. Not just by what you're saying but by the Spirit.

[@stevenborg9806]

I learned a lot watching this! However the most important thing that I learn is to read the scriptures and do that every day!

[@sarahbean6170]

Mike Day blows my mind! How could you even question the gospel after listening to him? Talking scripture with Mike and Bryce has been amazing to me! I wish I knew Hebrew and Greek! Is it too late for me?🤣 Amazing! I’ve listened to this about 7 times now! No joke! We need Mike Day!

[@calebschaaf1555]

Hey! Utah-born and Utah-raised Baptist pastor here. I have really enjoyed watching your channel. Typically I'm content just to sit and learn. But Mike's diving into an area here that I actually have some training and experience in, so I feel OK weighing in a bit. The primary weakness of Wellhausen's Documentary Hypothesis is that it is merely a hypothesis. There exists no consensus on dating the proposed contributors. Since the 1960s, scholars have challenged every element from dating to classification, to what can be accepted as evidence for any of those proposed redactors. Rolf Rendtorff, in his 1977 work on "The Problem of the Pentateuch" argued that evaluating the Penteteuch in terms of JEDP "sources" was academically unhelpful. Instead, he proposed six units of development, primeval history, patriarchal history, the Exodus, Sinai, the wilderness wanderings, and the settlement. Rendtorff recognized what many scholars since the 1960s do, that Wellhausen's theory has significant weaknesses. As a secularist himself, he proposed another theory on how Genesis came to be. Against Wellhausen and Rendtorff, I would say that there is nothing in the Pentateuch that would influence me away from holding to Mosaic authorship. J. H. Tigay argues that since we can see a development and redaction history in documents making up the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Documentary Hypothesis carries weight. I would argue that with the SP, we actually have objective evidence that show stages of development. IOW, we have the proto-Samaritan Exodus from Qumran and the SP. But with the Pentateuch, we don't have anything but the completed work. So arguing for anything other than a cohesive whole is just a guess. With Gilgamesh, we can empirically verify the development of the multiedited text. We can't do that with Genesis, because all we have is the completed Genesis. I'm already going way deeper than a KZbin post typically does. But I'll just finish by saying that the apparent reason that there is so little consensus on JEDP and Wellhausen is that it's entirely a guess. It's an educated and complex guess with a lot of moving parts. But it's still just a guess. As a Christian who holds to Biblical authority, I have no problem accepting the existence of the supernatural. In fact, my belief in the supernatural is baked into my view on Scripture itself. There is no empirical data to work from for scholars attempting to argue against the Divine authorship of the Pentateuch through the pen of Moses. What's more, Jesus, himself, says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch in Luke 24:44, John 5:46, John 7:19, and elsewhere. Put simply, when it's the guess of scholars vs. the plain words of my savior, I'll go with Jesus.

[@talkingscripture]

Caleb, thanks for listening to the “Stick of Joseph.” I (Mike Day) promised myself that I wouldn’t jump in the comments for several reasons. One is that so many are contending things I did not say, and it can be a bit frustrating. I also promised myself that by creating the document that addresses my assertions that people could simply go and check them out (see the link in the description above). That being said, here I go jumping into the comments. Some scholars, including Richard Elliott Friedman, contend that the Documentary Hypothesis (or a modification of this model) is still the most compelling explanation for the formation of the first five books of the Bible, despite recent attacks from what he calls “traditional and radical scholars.” (Friedman, The Bible with Sources Revealed, p. 7). He claims that the hypothesis is supported by a convergence of evidence from multiple sources, including linguistic analysis, literary style, and historical context. I would say that a close analysis of his evidence is compelling. Friedman (and many others) points to the existence of doublets, or repeated stories and laws, as one of the strongest pieces of evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis. I have added to his list as I have found additional doublets, and you can see them on my website at BrotherDay.org under the heading “Stories Told Twice in the Bible.” Friedman identifies several, and with my additions, as of today, I have located 35 doublets in the Torah, some of which are identical and others that differ in detail. This suggests that multiple authors were involved in the composition of the text, and that these authors may have had different agendas or perspectives. When you do a deep dive on what they are saying, it becomes clear that these authors had very different political views, and some would argue even different theological ones. Another key piece of evidence is the consistent relationship between the Priestly source (P) and the earlier sources of the Torah. Friedman asserts that P was composed later than the Yahwist (J) and Elohist (E) sources, and that it was written by someone who was familiar with J and E in their combined form. This indicates that P was composed as an alternative to the JE version of Israel's story, and that it was intended to promote the interests of the Aaronid priesthood. P was reacting to the earlier material. This is happening all over the place. I wrote a 60+ page paper on this topic of the DH and how it is viewed by past and present scholars if you would like to see the information I can provide. I am citing around 80 scholars on this topic, so I cast my net fairly wide. Just go to “Talking Scripture” and shoot me an email by going to the “About” section, scrolling to the bottom, and posting a comment. (For some reason, KZbin does not want me to share links in this comment!) We can also discuss how the Documentary Hypothesis is supported by linguistic and stylistic analysis, which reveals distinct differences between the various sources of the Torah. Many assert that these differences cannot be explained by the traditional view that Moses wrote the entire Torah, and that they are best explained by the hypothesis that multiple authors were involved in its composition. Just my brief discussion with the Paul brothers lays out the beginning of the arguments. There is a lot of material here to work with and Jackson and Hayden and I could dig into the evidence for over 40 hours of video and bore their audience into oblivion. This is why I told them I’d write my short paper and the folks that want more can read what I have provided. The evidence of multiple authorship is extensive. That being said, I understand the arguments of David Carr in “Reading The Fractures of Genesis,” when he goes into detail that Wellhausen is incorrect in many areas. But Carr will even acknowledge what he calls “P” and “Non-P” material. I will say Friedman’s short analysis of what scholars are continuing to not engage with regards to the argument is persuasive. To read his arguments regarding how scholars generally are not engaging the evidence, go to “What is the Documentary Hypothesis? A Short Introduction” on my site “Talking Scripture” and scroll to the bottom where it says “Richard Friedman’s Defense of the Documentary Hypothesis.” I keep trying to comment on KZbin and when I post the links to these articles, my posts are deleted automatically. Apparently KZbin thinks I am in violation for posting these links. His contention that the evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis is profound and compelling, and that it continues to be the central model in which most scholars work. He suggests that recent attacks on the hypothesis are based on flawed arguments and a lack of engagement with the classic and current evidence that supports it. At the end of the day, you the reader get to decide what you think. I love the end of his argument (Sources, p. 31), when he says, “The combined weight of the evidence that one will observe there, together with the evidence that is collected here in this section, should make it clear why this explanation of the biblical origins has been so compelling for more than a century. And, whether one agrees with this explanation, questions it, or challenges it, one will have in front of him or her the evidence to address. It is amazing that at this point, when such a mass of evidence is available, some writers still discuss this at so low a level as, for example, arguing about whether "different names of God" constitutes proof or not, or whether doublets prove multiple authorship, or whether a beautiful literary structure (for example, a chiasm) is evidence for a single author. Or some just say that "the hypothesis was disproved long ago" or "nobody accepts it anymore." Here, rather, is the evidence, for anyone to see, evaluate, acknowledge, or refute.” I am in the space of not knowing, but I also like looking at stuff and seeing clues that show me how to reframe my ideas and beliefs. And, like the Paul brothers, I am always curious and hungry.

[@calebschaaf1555]

Social media comment threads aren't always the most helpful (or the best place for significant discussion), so I'll save my meatiest comments for an email with you. But for the sake of anyone reading later, I'll respond here publicly. @@talkingscripture Hey Mike! Thanks for taking the time to write such a significant response. I actually found Talking Scripture through a friend of mine who's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints while we were discussing Hebrews recently. I'll find your email on your channel, because this is a significant point of discussion. I'm not a PhD student or anything like you are, but I do hold a couple of masters degrees and I concentrated on Greek and Hebrew in grad school. When it comes to DH sources, the ones I mentioned in my comment are a few of the big names. But as with all academia, sometimes the lesser-known voices are the most beneficial. I'm sure there is a great deal you can teach me on that front. But I do find Whybray's criticisms of the DH to be weighty. 1) variation in language, repetition, and (apparent) contradictions can be explained by deliberate use of those features for aesthetic and literary purposes. 2) by breaking up the narrative into source materials the DH tends to make those literary features irrelevant. 3) variations in style and language can be explained by differences in subject matter. And (in his words) 4) "there is inadequate evidence to support the presence throughout each of the documents of a single style, purpose and point of view or theology, and of an unbroken narrative thread. (Making of the Pentateuch, 130). Granted, most of my research was done using sources that were more than a decade old. You may be aware of information that provide meaty answers to these points. My personal biggest objection to the DH models, as I alluded to earlier, is that they are all hypothetical. They begin by assuming Moses didn't write the Pentateuch, and then they hypothesize on who might have written it. No matter how complex the analysis is, DH models are still trying to build a system upon that core presupposition. My presupposition is that Moses did write it. And absent extant evidence to the contrary, I'm comfortable where I am.

[@psychlops924]

@@calebschaaf1555 I’ve heard Mike talk a lot about the Documentary Hypothesis, and I’ve heard several other non-LDS channels talk about it (most notably Useful Charts’ Bible videos), but you’re the first I’ve heard argue for Mosaic authorship against the DH. If you live in Utah, do you think you could have a discussion on Mike’s podcast about it? I know I’m not the only one who would like to hear the various points presented from “opposing sides” (not in a contentious way, obviously). @talkingscriptue, what do you say?

[@calebschaaf1555]

@@psychlops924 I've reached out to Mike in an email. Before jumping into a public discussion, I'd like to talk one-on one for a bit. He's a bit further along with his academic credentials than I am. But our shared love of Tolkien, Star Wars, and the biblical languages could lay the groundwork for something down the road.

[@truthbebold4009]

​@@calebschaaf1555Thank you for commenting on the DH. As a non LDS Christian who also approaches the Bible as the word of God, I too reject the DH. Well, maybe not all together, but no matter how the books of the Bible came together, I'm 100% certain that God was guiding the process into the end result. I've enjoyed many of the presentations from Chuck Missler. Here's one of his quotes..."In fact, as we begin to understand the Bible from an information science point of view, we discover the integrity of the total package manifests a strategy to avoid hostile jamming. It’s interesting to note that we can’t say, “Where’s the chapter in the Bible on baptism? Where’s the chapter on salvation?” There is no critical subject in the Bible that is found in only one passage. Every major issue is explained or portrayed repeatedly by a wide variety of authors in a multitude of passages." If you search online for "hyperlink text Bible image" you will find a stunning image of this very thing. It shows how interwoven every chapter of the Bible is with all the other chapters. So, no matter how much editing and redacting might have gone into the books of the Bible, at the end of the day we have what God intended to be there. The Welsh revival didn't come about by believers who were doubtful about the authenticity of the Bible. Desmond Doss didn't accomplish his super human feat of saving all of those lives while surviving hell on Earth with doubts about who the author of the Torah was. God will bless those with a childlike faith and will use them to confound the "wise" of this world. I believe/know Adam and Eve were created about six thousand years ago. I believe/know there was a worldwide flood. I know Jesus was crucified, buried and raised back to life. The world thinks I'm a fool, but the world gets more and more foolish everyday. Have a blessed day. I pray readers will be blessed by this post.

[@johnroot838]

I'm fascinated by Mike's scholarship and I can tell he is influenced by Margaret Barker's work, another scholar who fascinates me. My question is this, when I read Barker I come away feeling like King Josiah was a villain, but church manuals don't give me the same impression. He is given more credit. I'm inclined to agree with Day and Barker because of the life and story of Lehi. Is this even an issue for anyone else?

[@GrouperNJ]

RLDS here! Love this channel and Mike Day is one of my favorites. So much knowledge! Just WOW!!

[@zachariahqureshi3452]

Asking out of curiosity, What significance is this channel and Mike Day of to you as an RLDS (and correct me if I’m wrong) don’t believe in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and don’t believe in the restoration of the temple?

[@GrouperNJ]

@@zachariahqureshi3452 Wow! Ok I have to say the way you come across is a bit offensive because it makes eme wonder if you understand the difference between RLDS and the Community of Christ. There are those within the CofC who do not agree with your claims. We believe in the Book if Mormon and we keep the original name of the church on our congregations. So, I am a history lover and I am also of Mexican ancestry. I enjoy hearing different points of view regarding the Meso or Heartland theories. Not being LDS should not negate my appreciation for this channel. Wayne May has spoken to Restoration branches in Independence. Zion will not be achieved thru division.

[@HaleStorm49]

​@@GrouperNJ That means we have to be unified. How will that work with different sects?

[@HaleStorm49]

@@GrouperNJ Do we both have to be willing to do those things or just me? 🤨

[@GrouperNJ]

@@HaleStorm49 Of course it is not just you. It is everyone. There is so much stuff in this world that can divide us. We all need to do our part.

[@tombstonestakes]

Loved the discussion. It made my day. It also came at a great time as I’ve recently finished Nibley’s Lehi in the Desert, which discusses in detail the Egyptian influence in Jerusalem before his departure. Anyway, his words there helped with some of these ideas, contextually speaking. Anyway, I am rambling about nothing. This was great.

[@renatonuno4610]

Se Joseph Smith criou o livro de Mórmon, no mínimo deveria ser reconhecido como o pai da literatura, é uma obra muito complexa para ser criado em tão pouco tempo e ainda morrer por isso, Tolkien levou uma vida para fazer as histórias do Senhor dos Anéis tendo um sofisticado conhecimento universitário.

[@loceyrice303]

A única maneira que o mundo reconhecerá ao obra do livro de mórmon é quando eles aceitam mesmos. Por que eles aceitarão algo que não concorda com os ideologizas deles mesmos? Se for tão lógico, ninguém poderão contestar as ideas e “problemas” que existem. É bem similar ao bible bashing. Só o espírito pode converter uma pessoa e deixa eles abertos ao verdade.

[@coleblair5750]

I’m listening to this and loving it. In terms of Mike mentioning that Lamen and Lemuel beat nephi with a rod, angel saying stop “it’s his rod”. I actually think that the rod is currently in the hands of Laben and the rod changes hands from Laben to Nephi when nephi takes the sword and the clothes. Very similar to when David takes Goliaths amor and sword. The mantle of kingship is changing hands. Thanks for doing this episode!! Brings up so many good memories from my own readings (many suggested by Mike and Bryce) David Butler wrote a great book that helps iron some of this stuff too. Cheers my new friends and carry on!!!

[@safrew1]

Interesting- thank you

[@lindamartinez7006]

Before anyone writes a book they are to take it ti the first presidenecy first for approval . That is the law laid out for writing books . Why do people not listen ?? Too scared your book will not be approved ? Why not do as you are asked ??

[@susannaholdfield7499]

@@lindamartinez7006 I guess you better tell Deseret Books. I doubt 99% of those books were passed 'for approval'. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and at no point did he say this is the official position of the church. No approval is needed.

[@alatterdaysaintonfire5643]

I am so glad that this video came up for me. I have a group that gets together each week to discuss. Mormonism versus Christianity. Last Monday we went over the book of Mormon and whether it is valid in our day today. Relationship with Jesus Christ in our Father in heaven. Sometimes the spirit moves me and helped me communicate a very strong testimony of the validity of the book Mormon. Last week or on Monday it wasn't there. I offer to you both an invitation to come in be a part of the conversation over zoom this coming Monday on the validity of the book of Mormon. I have at least two to three pastors and an ex Mormon that is a part of the conversation. It would be great to have some help on my side or the side of the church and you guys would fit in without a doubt

[@Golfinthefamily]

The test of a prophet is whether they are consistent with the reveled word of God. Joseph Smith rejects saved by grace alone. He rejects Monotheism, He rejects the SHEMA, he rejects Jesus as the one true God (since there is but one). The book of Abraham is enough to draw into enormous question the validity of him as a prophet. I highly commend to you to read the New Testament without any preconceived notions and watch "apologia studios" videos on here when they visit with mormons. Isaiah tells us there is only one God... none before or after. Because the teachings of the church contradict the old and New Testament, it is decidedly false.

[@christianerwin3964]

​@@Golfinthefamilylol you read the New testament with the preconceived notion that by grace alone we are saved. Is choosing to follow Christ not works in itself, what does it mean to follow Jesus Christ. Simply believing is not enough you must follow him. The Bible says so, to know him is to follow him and to keep his commandments. His grace is sufficient for those who follow him. You don't know him. The godhead is 1 god with three bodies. The early Christians prayed with Jesus to the father. Did Christ pray to himself, how can you do the will of the father if you are the father . You my friend are being misled. And I say that in the name of the only begotten Jesus.

[@Golfinthefamily]

Trinitarians don't believe the father is the Son. I don't think you understand what Christians believe about the Trinity, or have rejected it.@@christianerwin3964. Questions for you: How many Gods are there according to Isaiah 44:6 & Isaiah 43:10? Is the Book of Abraham what Joseph translated correctly, or what the Rosetta Stone revealed to be Egyptian burial instructions? Colossians 1:16-17 Demonstrate EVERYTHING was made through Jesus. Which means Satan was created by Jesus, and they weren't created at the same time. When it says begotten it means "pre-eminent"--- He is above all. He was uncreated. "Before Abraham was, I AM" Ephesians 2:8-9 fly right in contradiction to what you have professed. "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, not of works, lest anyone should boast, it is the gift of God" --- Grace by definition is a gift. Trusting in Jesus is the opposite of doing works. You seek to justify yourself by works, but that cannot save you. I am not saying that saving faith doesn't come with good works... but Ephesians 2:10 tells us that: For we are Christ's workmanship, created FOR GOOD works... those who are saved are created for good works but we are not justified by works. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. An honest reading of Galatians Chapter 3 will differentiate between what you believe and the teachings of the Apostles. There is no line of evidence that validates Joseph Smith as a Prophet. Only evidence to the contrary. Even dying while armed is an obvious evidence of his lack of Godliness. From Birth to Death it is clear that Joseph was a false prophet. NOW... you can actually investigate these things with an open mind, or you can remain entrenched in a cult... but I have given you the biblical truth. We agree the Bible is true. Read it like a child and ask "What was the original author saying?" and decide if what you say lines up with it. You have been deceived. A burning of the bosom is a subjective feeling you can get at a Taylor Swift concert... we rely on what is written, as Jesus did!

[@supperspreader]

In this interview after telling his own anecdote on the futility of bashing they advise against combating with people who have alternative faith perspectives. Unless the group of pastor's you are conversing with are uniquely open minded and prepared to consider your point of view you will be pointlessly banging your head against a brick wall. They almost always have no intention of listening to what you have to say with any genuine intent to consider the validity of your perspective, their only purpose is to have you jump to a series of their pre conceived ideas as to what it is they claim you believe in. If after a few attempts you find yourself going around in circles save yourself the bother of trying to get through to them, their just not interested in what you have to say with any genuine intent to understand.

[@kevinedward118]

If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. Sundays 830, 10, 1130 EST

[@amandaspencer4686]

I love this video SO much! It has taken me 5 days to finish this video because I've paused it so many times to look things up in the scriptures. That's not something I've done before. Thank you for talking about the Tree of Life. That has changed me and the Spirit has been teaching me things I've never thought of before. Thank you. I'll be subscribing to Mike's channel and can't wait to have another place to dive deeply into! Thanks, guys.

[@SkyCandyDigitalCinema]

This was profound... Thank you guys for taking the time and thanks to Mike Day!

[@kevins4254]

Great video, fellas. As a Catholic, my ears perked up when you mentioned Mary. Catholic doctrine on Mary is based on both the Scriptures and tradition. The Hebrew kings of the Old Testament had a queen and, in accordance with Hebrew tradition, the queen was his mother and not his wife. This practice (and her position) were called "gebyra". The queen mother had wisdom and experience to help advise the king on running his kingdom. People took their most serious concerns and requests to the queen in the hopes she would speak to the king on their behalf. When Jesus is called "king of kings and Lord of Lords" in the Bible, the writers would have known that calling him king means that Mary is the Queen. The Roman Catholic Church has been studying the topics in your video for many centuries. I encourage you to visit the Vatican website. There are thousands of documents there that you can access and study.

[@thestickofjoseph]

Thanks for the insight! We will look into it. Stay curious and hungry!

[@applesaucerno.2843]

I would love to see mini series sets with the amazing guests y’all have on your channel. I have enough time for scripture study, but then I’m on the go from there so I seek out audiobooks and podcast, and may I say I’m so glad I found this one!

[@soulpowdr8532]

OMGEEEEE!!! Brother Day!!! You were my seminary teacher!!! Back in 1999!!!

[@rock5948]

Nice video brethren! I was impressed by the Spirit to prepared an address on this very topic in which I did some weeks ago. That is the most plain and precious thing which was taken out of the record of the Jews which Nephi saw, which is the name Jesus Christ. With a close study of the Bible you can see that it's missing but evidence is present that it was there. If salvation is only in and through Jesus Christ that means they new his name since the days of Adam. If salvation is in the name of Jesus Christ they knew it. In my personal studies I've found evidence in the Bible that they new. Peter even testified that, Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" Acts 10:38-43 [ 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:... 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.] And Heb 4:2 testifies that the same gospel was preached to ancient Israel "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:" These scriptures testify that they new of the name Jesus Christ. For God is the same yesterday, today and forever and there is only one way back to the Father and one name whereby salvation comes unto all from the beginning of the world unto the end and that name is Jesus Christ. I thank God for the Book of Mormon which also testifies of these precious truths and of Jesus Christ. Thanks Stick of Joseph for another nice video. 🙏🏽

[@UtahKent]

Right! The word Cumorah is not intended to only describes a place, it describes a function: a place of sacred storage. Like the vault in up the canyon holding the Church records; that mountain is Cumorah.

[@mycatwould]

So interesting - I wish we could just watch these episodes for Elders Quorum lessons. Thanks Mike Day for your amazing research and sharing your knowledge, and thanks Paul bros for sharing this!!

[@thestickofjoseph]

Glad you like them!

[@mlg74]

I gave it a thumbs up after just reading the title. After listening, it did not disappoint.

[@paulblack1799]

I love what Dr. Barker (Methodist scholar in England) had to say about Lehi and Nephi's vision. "Imagine my surprise when I read the account of Lehi's vision of the tree whose white fruit made one happy. This revelation to Joseph Smith was the ancient wisdom symbolism, intact, and almost certainly as it was known in 600 BCE." -Dr. Margaret Barker.

[@martinisaksen1]

This was a fantastic episode. Thanks for putting it together! Really looking forward to the next one!

[@MichaelGMoney]

Circles (concourses) of angels within the cube or holy of holies, the Debir. Circling the Square or Squaring the Circle. Interesting.

[@joachim847]

Hey fellas 👋 I'm an Orthodox Christian, and I love Mormons 🤗 A lot of what Mike is talking about comes from Margaret Barker, whom he mentioned. Anyway, if I remember correctly, she was quoted by Pope Benedict XVI, Rowan Williams (Anglican), and EP Bartholomew (Orthodox) - quoted by all three of these church leaders, _all in the same calendar year._ That my friends, is what we call a hat trick. Anyway, there's a good chance her reconstructions of the patriarchal Hebrew religion will become the scholarly consensus before too long, which means Orthodoxy and the LDS could potentially both see a big swell of interest 🙏

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

This is the kind of stuff I love! Hoping and waiting with great anticipation for the Church's official instructional materials to catch up with all this. Remember: the English word "Lord" comes from "hlaf-weard" meaning the keeper of the bread.

[@gnomecaveira1490]

First temple president and his wife/first officiators/workers? That's pretty fire

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

This is so exciting! Thank you for taking the time to share! Wow, just Wow! 🎉☀️🙏🏻

[@amyjo4367]

Love, love, love Mike Day! And all of you! Thanks for sharing on your quest for truth. Bless you all! 🙏 😇 😍

[@ClintRay2578]

This reminds me of a thought I had while in Sacramento meeting... Growing up you always hear about the fountain of youth and I had the thought during the dark ages and apostasy, the fountain of youth came from the fountain of truth. It's only a couple letters off and people are searching for the fountain of youth when they should be searching for the fountain truth which is Jesus Christ which he said drink from me and you'll never thirsty again. IMO

[@shareceyoung677]

This is so so spiritually deep!! Love to dive into truth I had to share this with everyone!!

[@paulamoore8427]

Please never stop! Yes I’m curious and hungry! We need the 3 of you. Pleeeeez👏👏👏‼️

[@jeffreypacker8608]

the term 'marriage' came about when the pacific broke through the isthmus between Antarctica and South America. Mar=sea Makes me think that the days of the week should be Dei as in deity. That also the 'days' of the week are a progression as well, culminating in Sun-Dei.

[@Thomas-vb4bu]

This is a question I have had for years. I'm so excited to learn more with your content. I love this channel!

[@purpleboye_]

Bro Mike was my seminary teacher in the 9th grade

[@valiantkjones]

Fascinating discussion. Keep them coming! You guys are great.

[@shellybuss1262]

Oh, please! I'm in!!!😂❤. This refrains a ton of things learned and taught by prog"s at university. But as the primary song (I've been thinking of this week, wouldn't you know? (and that's a pun too) says : "there's a beautiful stairway that we must climb leading upward to lasting joy..... the heavenly concourses. The temple ascent.... I'm not going to get any sleep tonight.....oh well, time we'll spent😅. And I'm furthering my education in NE archaeology to boot. My idea of heaven...😂

[@davidrenfroe8985]

Cleon Skousen alluded to Jesus being edited out of the OT in his book "Days of the Living Christ Vol 1" pages 86 - end of chapter, first published 1992. My edition is 2003.

[@harpersmith3599]

I’ve listened to this twice and will listen again. I love you sharing all this! It is so valuable.

[@shannarussell839]

You two are just the cutest! I love this podcast so much! I learn so much. Thank you for all your hard work in putting this together for all of us to benefit from.

[@MichaelGMoney]

MIKE! WRITE A BOOK DUDE!PLEASE. You're able to put all of this information into easily digestible words, how am I supposed to teach those around me when my words come out big dumb dumb? Gimme a book bro. 😊

[@thestickofjoseph]

Write?!? He’s a legend!

[@Greg-McIver]

Great interview. Love your comment Hayden "....sufficiently high." You are correct. There is literal and type. Christ is a type in the wilderness with Moses and there was a literal Christ, not just a type.

[@SantiagosReality]

Hey guys, I know this is an old video. Hope you get this comment. Just wondering if you’re related to Nicholas Paul who was a Englishman, who came out of South Africa after he was converted to the church? He went to Central Utah and lived for the remainder of his life.

[@daleclark7127]

David Bokovoy’s book Authoring the Old Testament is a fantastic book that explains and proves the documentary hypothesis. It also helps navigate the implications of that with restored scriptures. It really is clear and obvious that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses and that the five Books of Moses is just a cultural tradition that attributes ancient prophets to these kind of sacred writings that are actually not contemporary with the events written. LDS folks need to be cognizant of these facts to understand what Joseph Smith’s MO was. Perhaps this would help members that lose their faith because of their literalist beliefs and provide a new perspective that actually is tenable. Great guest and topic. I learned so much and the content has been beneficial for a lesson I’m preparing on the topic of happiness. Thanks!!

[@safrew1]

I like the "Big View"

[@benjamingregersen9777]

I discovered that Saint Catherine's book, "The Dialog," is literally a commentary on Lehi's dream. I was shocked! She's communicating with God the Father in it, and he tells her that he's the man standing under the tree of life beckoning his children to come. The fruit of the tree is breast milk in her vision. I just couldn't believe it at first. There's so many aspects of what she wrote that fits this hypothesis really well.

[@gnomecaveira1490]

33:23 Alma is also in the middle of the Book of Mormon!🤯 Moroni is a freaking literary genius!! God knew what he was doing when he picked him and his father to abridge the Book of Mormon!🤯

[@andrewbfrost7021]

Two thoughts: 1)Lehi addresses the confounding of language problem in 2 Nephi 2 when he talked about “opposition in all things”. He was talking about maintaining clear boundaries and categories of language and thought. When you blur the lines of categories and language, everything becomes a “compound in one”. 2) I think the story of Noah is a type of the vision that Enoch has in the book of Moses.

[@wtaylordurrant]

Love this! I have been attracted to this for years. Thanks for bringing light.

[@Croaven]

Their take on Hebrew is a very modern take. The poetry of Hebrew writing is that it was written by people who believe that breath is life. Consonants are not breath sounds, they are hard sounds. In writing, the text is effectively dead because it has no vowels, no breath, no life. It is only in speaking that the words are brought to life by adding the vowels. It is a language that is meant to be recited. In the same way God breathed life into Adam, we breathe life into his holy words when we recite them. For ancient people, the practicality of language was not their primary concern. Utilitarianism is a more modern concern.

[@alexanderv7702]

Paleo Hebrew vowels, in some cases, were used as consonants: the English letter Y can be used as a vowel and a consonant.

[@mikebell9166]

Incredible that Dad jokes are sacred! I find it endearing that Heavenly Father uses them, and causes them to be used in His home language.

[@StevenMayberry]

Poor choice in the thumbnail. I didn't even realize that this was one of your videos because I didn't recognize the dude. That being said, I'm really glad that I watched this video. Amazing discussion! Keep up the good work.

[@AshtynJadeProduction]

1:14:48 This is brilliant! We ARE saying the same words, but the meanings are VASTLY different.

[@deadcityhauntedhouse9132]

Verse of plates in cumorah 6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

[@thestickofjoseph]

Yes, but Moroni does not say he buried them in Cumorah. That’s what matters.

[@victoriagledhill5872]

That was awesome... Like seriously. I want more.

[@thestickofjoseph]

We will get more!

[@josephmcmurray6634]

Until listening to these podcasts, I had not thought about Lehi being a contemporary of the end of the old testiment.

[@carsonhawkes]

Mike Day seems like a nice approachable and less pretentious Dan McLellan. How does Mike view him and what's his thoughts on "negotiating with the text" and using that world view to contradict every doctrine that is hard specifically around sex, gender roles and the priesthood and LGBT stuff?

[@kz6fittycent]

Dude!!!! Dude!!!!!!! This is awesome!!!!!!!!

[@thestickofjoseph]

I know, right??

[@willowoneal4084]

I love the " I don't know." Everyone is using it. Haha

[@kellikoopmans7710]

Yes please! More on Heavenly Mother and the Tree of Life! This was SO good! Thank you!

[@cachemoneymerrill]

I believe they are all similar even our myths because the religious tradition taught to Adam by God was one clear theology and he taught that for 900 years. That was deeply engrained in all the human family. Then variious tweaks and adjustments were made by various people's. So fascinating.

[@janinedecker2937]

Love your Channel and Mike Day. Tower of Babel is found in so many transcribed scriptures. Book of Nations tell the story of Babel and has Mahonri in it. Havah Pratt translated writings of Mohonri(Brother of Jared) who says the tower is a temple where the wicked enter into the lower levels of heaven to fight God to take the thrown from him. This can be found in the Book of Achee of another group of people who left the tower. Chronicles of Araneck has three different groups of people who left the tower and brought to their promised lands, one of which traveled with Mohonri for a while on their journey. It's found in too many places to not be true.

[@thestickofjoseph]

Send a link for this reasearch?

[@christireay2605]

I keep wondering if any of you have listened to Jack Logan Ancient Traditions. I’ve learned a lot from them about Temple theology.

[@ensignj3242]

I had always liked Hezekiah. Even if he’s not as good as i once thought, there are still many inspirational verses therein. This is NOT boring.

[@Thehaystack7999]

Excellent!!!

[@carlajoguthrie6498]

A rod in the Bible is also used to mean the branch of a tree.

[@howardkenneth5569]

LET'S WORSHIP JESUS TOGETHER ===> Please come worship Jesus with Christians at Cornerstone Chapel Leesburg Virginia, in person or live online streaming on Sundays 8:30/10/11:45 and Wed 7pm

[@ParadiseDestroyed]

I demand that there be an episode on how Harry Potter and Star Wars are related to the Plan of Salvation.

[@IIMRCLEANIII]

An amazing book to read "He Walked the Americas" L. Taylor Hansen

[@thepeadair]

Since this video will be likely to appeal to the nerdy, scholarly type I am putting this link to an amazing (I do not use that term lightly) video by Stan Tenen of The Meru Foundation. The video is titled “The First Verse, an introduction to the Meru Foundation.” It’s about the first line in Genesis and what he uncovered will astound you. No, that’s not clickbait rhetoric and I am a faithful, active member of the Church. If you thought chiasmic structure was cool - that’s kindergarten stuff compared to what Tenen demonstrates.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

I thought the LDS church rejects the documentary hypothesis, because Deutero-Isaiah would disprove the Book of Mormon historicity.

[@thestickofjoseph]

Why would that be the case? I don’t see how A+B=C.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

@@thestickofjoseph Joseph Smith had a very literal belief in the scriptures, both in their literal truth and their traditional writing timeline. Once you start using the documentary hypothesis, all of that consistency is endangered. E.g. the documentary hypothesis states that the Adam and Eve story and the Noah's flood story are taken from the Gilgamesh epic and integrated into the Jewish scriptures during the exile. Thus, they could not be known to Lehi, and 2. Nephi 2 would be empty. Similarly, Deutero isaiah and Trito Isaiah would not be part of the Book of Mormon. Neither was the Pentateuch finalized when Lehi left for the Americas. Thus, you will inevitably end up in a faith crisis when following this path.

[@juliearcher2970]

Cried through this whole podcast. So much truth.❤️

[@FAITHFUL_FOUNDATION_CHANNEL]

1:04:00 talking about the tower of babel it does mention it in the second paragraph of the introduction of the book of mormon Edit 1:08:00 Mike just put me in my place

[@eternalskywalker9440]

Since I learned about this, my study of the scriptures has come alive as never before-I can't unsee this. Before, my idea of "plain and precious things" was of cool little obscure facts that saints could be smug about knowing. NO! It is the Doctrine of Christ! It is everything. People don't "stumble" because of tiny rocks. They stumble because of giant boulders and deep pits. For example: compare the Book of Moses with the first chapters of Genesis. The difference is that every reference to the doctrine of Christ-faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, atonement, sacrifice, resurrection-in Moses is completely missing from Genesis. If you miss the connection between the fall of Adam and Eve and the Atonement of Christ, it is completely reasonable to believe that Eve made a major mistake. Taking Jesus out leaves a very confusing story. And this is just one example. I am seeing this everywhere. Wow.

[@Eluzian86]

In my opinion, the Hill Cumorah wouldn’t have been a temple. It would have been a sacred site because it’s where they stored scriptures, but I believe the geometric earthworks of the Hopewell Indians were the temples of the Nephites, and here is some of my reasoning: (1) Archeologists say the geometric earthworks of the Hopewell Indians are ceremonial sites showing no signs of long-term habitation, there are no signs of war for centuries until toward the end of the 1-400AD timeframe. Basically, they are described as the most peaceful people and one of the only places on earth where the common person was literally buried with their wealth. One of the most popular items they were commonly buried with was vast amounts of fresh-water pearls. A single burial mound could contain 100,000 pearls. It wasn't until that last century that they started building city wall defenses again, leading into the wars that lead to their final destruction up in the area of New York State. 1 Nephi 1:14-18 = Describes there being no crime among them and there could not be a happier people. 1 Nephi 1:24-25 = Describes how they stopped living the law of consecration with the words, "...they did have their goods and their substance no more in common among them." Then dividing into classes, starting the downhill spiral toward conditions of war to rise again. Of particular mention in verse 24 was that of "fine pearls". I believe if a people who had been living the law of consecration turned away into wickedness, I think their selfishness would be much higher than usual. First, they would hoard riches for themselves gathering it in great abundance not wanting to share any of it any more with anyone. Then they would insist that all of their wealth be buried with them, leaving none of it as inheritance, and the burial mounds full of all of their precious pearls is what you would get. According to Wayne May in some of his videos he believes there was something like 1 million mounds before settlers started overrunning the land, and that today there is only around 100,000 left, meaning 90% of the Hopewell Indian sites have been destroyed to make way for cities and farms, and so forth. Sadly, that would make finding specific locations of cities rather difficult. (2) I believe the geometric earthworks of the Hopewell are temples that were constructed during the era of peace after Christ visited the Nephites. They have cosmological alignments that include the full 36-year cycle of the moon. The primary shapes used in the structure are squares, circles, and octagons. Squares symbolize earth, mortality, and the body of a person, and so it could also represent the Terrestrial Kingdom. Circles symbolize eternity, immortality, and the spirit of a person, and it could also be used to represent the Celestial Kingdom. The octagon is halfway between a square and a circle, and so could represent the Terrestrial Kingdom. The circle and square together are used to represent a complete person. If the circle is within the square, they represent the mortal person. If the circle is encircling the square, they represent the immortal person. In some of the geometric earthworks the square and circle each enclose the same amount of area indicating they could be symbolized together even while apart. Such symbolism can be found in our temples today. They were also all close to rivers, which could have been used for baptisms for the dead similar to what the saints did while the Temple was being built. (KZbin reference: The Hopewell, LDS Temples, and Circling the Square; posted by J.J. Brown) (3) The land of Bountiful is centered in Ohio in the Heartland model. Christ visited the Nephites coming down to the Temple in the land of Bountiful. Wherever Christ visited is certain to have become the most sacred location, most visited site, and the most likely place they would want to build their greatest temples. During the centuries of peace, the Ohio area was the central point of gathering, trade, and pilgrimage of the Hopewell culture with people traveling there from all over the continent. Most of the geometric earthworks were built in there in that timeframe. The archeologists believe each geometric earthwork would had to have been constructed within the lifetime of the individual who designed it because of their complexity. Therefore, I believe they would have been constructed during a time when there was the most cooperation among the people. As best as the archeologists can tell, nobody was being forced to build the geometric earthworks. Everyone ate the same things and worked just as hard as everyone else. They were community building projects. Sounds like a community living the law of consecration on a continental scale. (KZbin reference: Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks: Ohio's First UNESCO World Heritage Site; posted by the Ottawa County Historical Society)

[@TheAwakening-cl8tn]

So my concern is at Mike Day is generalizing the bible and the book of Mormon. Please watch, all of the Pattern of Evidence. The evidence is there. In Egypt and the surrounding area the governments do not want anyone to know and they are making the archeologists say there is no evidence when it is there. I was watching someone who lived near Babel and they said that residence in the area know what happened to the rock in the tower. It is in the damn in the area and has been for a long time. These precious books are true and should be taken literally, not figuratively. Can you please put a contact email on so that people can email you?

[@thestickofjoseph]

We have one in our channel details and description. [e-mail]

[@rossm2102]

Also a note about the Josiah reforms.. they magically found a whole bunch of rules that somehow had been in the Temple all that time but mysteriously gone unnoticed.. nah, I think they added a load in to make try and avoid God's displeasure. it's clear that the "scriptures" that Nephi took were also a much slimmed down version since they hadn't been complied and redacted as you note.

[@ItsSnagret]

Great stuff my guys!

[@thestickofjoseph]

You’re an OG Snagret!

[@DFF1234]

can you explain messiah Ben Joseph. first will come Joseph. he shall gather his brethren

[@brettmajeske3525]

The tower of Babel as found in Genesis is an obvious parable, but that doesn't mean it could not have been influenced by an older story that is preserved in the Book of Jared. The Book of Jared version does not claim to be the source of all language throughout the world. It only claims that residents of a single city had their language confused.

[@Chris27883]

Dude... Where do I start learning this stuff???

[@daverome1142]

I never read the chapter headings in the scriptures. I find them often to be off compared to the actual scriptures verses.

[@andersongaaren4805]

Lots of impressive insights, but sometimes academia/critical theory seems to forget it is a theory, even though that is the way they define their approach. I agree with the idea of archetypes ia powerful tool for "likening the scriptures to [ourselves]." They seem to call others on their assumptions, but are blind to their own. Mike seems very intent on using the archetypes to show that Joseph Smith is legit, but seems to ignore his assumption that the flood and Tower of Babel never occurred, because it doesn't fit with his archetypal paradigm. He seems to assume that, because he sees people building on the stories of other cultures, that that is the only explanation. What about the possibility that people from all around the world describing the same thing, might mean that something actually happened on a global scale? Not to mention the physical and geological evidence that can be explained better this way than with currently held theories which are being taught as fact, so people are not aware that they are theories? It seems un-scientific to assume that, because archetypes happen, that there wasn't something real that the variations grew out of. I'm glad Jackson pushed back a bit, but then it ended up looking like he and Hayden agreed with Mike, rather than just respecting his opinion. Mike is a pretty persuasive speaker. Mike didn't even answer Jackson's question, but bypassed it to push his point.

[@gjDOnBBQ]

I happened upon this video accidently (on purpose?), as I do not subscribe to coincidence. What is discussed regarding the OT and specifically Deuteronomy etc., is fascinating. I began my dive into DH and came across this; "... we are wholly certain that the Bible, including Exodus, describes real events. Yet we are equally certain that the tale of the Exodus is not about 600,000 physical men and their families and animals leaving Egypt and forty years later invading Canaan. If the full skills-and-labor core of Egypt (around a third of the entire population) would have departed and its Pharaoh and his army been annihilated, the Egyptian administrative records would have mentioned it, the artists would have told it and the archeological record would have shown it. They don't...The story of the Exodus, as well as the genealogies and wars mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, are not about physical activities or descendance, but tell of THE EVOLUTION OF YAHWISM - which in turn is not a religion but rather a proto-science; the study of the Way Things Are, the wisdom tradition of how man fits in, where man is going and ultimately how man will one day rightly govern creation. The story of the crossing of the Red Sea, like the Iliad and the Odyssey, doesn't play in physical space but in literary space. we're guessing that the Exodus tells how Semitic writing (by means of the alphabet) gave the Semites a tactical advantage over Egypt, and ultimately defeated Egypt as the fitter contender. With their alphabet, the Semites could transfer data quicker and more efficiently, but possibly more importantly: because of the much more efficient and thus simpler script, the literacy rate shot up. In Egypt, texts were dealt with by elite and thoroughly trained priests (who probably were more interested in maintaining the status quo that provided them with a livelihood than to adjust beliefs or overthrow norms), while in the Semitic language area pretty much every common man could read, write and most importantly, add to the growing body of wisdom, that is skills, science, technology and artistic expression." Keep up the work fellas!!! Great discussion-

[@ballardfx1140]

Josiah was the one that discovered the scriptures in the ark of the covenant in the temple, he read them and repented and changed many things what you call the reformation. It also says that no one read the Scriptures ever since Moses all the way down to him.

[@psychlops924]

Um… have you ever read Kings and Chronicles before? That’s not what it says

[@ballardfx1140]

@@psychlops924 Yes I have! But you apparently have not. It’s written in second kings chapter 22! Versus two states that he did, what was right in the side of the Lord. Verse eight is them finding the book of the law, chapter 23 is where they read the words to the public and the public, all make a covenant to obey the words of the Lord then, after that, they tear down all the idols, and set things straight throughout the land. verse 22 states that they didn’t even know about the Passover since the time of Judges, which was right after Moses and Joshua, the same thing is written in second, Chronicles, 34. You can see all these throughout all the Scriptures, you can even see it in the Jewish library safaria! How are you gonna explain this away? Clearly you’re lazy and don’t know anything, should I just post the Scriptures?

[@downsmath]

I appreciated your comment! I don't know why the scholars are now turning their sites on Josiah. The scriptures are clear regarding his righteousness. Before my son's left on their missions, we read through those verses and discussed them in great detail. For us they were a great reminder of how one man who is righteous can truly make a difference in this world. That was how I would send them off on their missions and would encourage them not to ignore the bible when it came to discussing the gospel with investigators. I have seen this same argument shared on the Cwik program and it frustrates me. Not sure if it is simply scholars looking for a new angle and a way to publish. But it sure is getting discouraging to see more and more of this being shared. Bad good, good bad. Own scholars are falling into this trap.

[@ballardfx1140]

@@downsmath things are getting closer to the end. Next year is the last according to 2 Ezra 11-13.

[@ensenadorjones4224]

​@@ballardfx1140 Ezra 2: 11 The sons of Bebai, 623. 12 The sons of Azgad, 1,222. 13 The sons of Adonikam, 666

[@dmitrynikiforov1986]

I'm loving this! Keep up the good work!

[@Cyle-1]

Maybe I just haven’t listened long enough and you will talk about this. But this is what Laman and Lemuel were influenced by. It’s not like they were atheists. They were still religious, but they thought it to be heretical to talk about Jesus. That’s why they wanted to kill Lehi and Nephi.

[@thestickofjoseph]

We did not go into that! Those are some cool thoughts though.

[@hbwilly54]

yes so today there are different sects of the Jews like Orthodox, conservative and reformed I guess the Orthodox would be more like the Deuteronaries

[@creativegenecircle]

You should have Leland tanner on to discuss the Tower of Babel

[@danieldunbar2956]

Great video!

[@alatterdaysaintonfire5643]

I believe the book of Enoch has God as having flesh and bone. And I would guess it would be apocryphal

[@janecollette9504]

Actually there are many messianic references in Psalms. So it wasn't acurate to say that Isaiah was the only one who spoke Messianicly. 16:02

[@zionmama150]

This was so cool. Thanks for the information and the episode!

[@ashleysb3]

SEARCH the scriptures. Not just read. ❤️

[@daverome1142]

Thanks for this video

[@antoniocorleone3986]

I thought the topic of the discussion was, “ was Jesus edited from the Old Testament “. Maybe I missed. Got tired of waiting, exited out half out.