Japanese Player's Shuffling Controversy - Rant

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[@AzulGG]

Obviously I don’t mean all Japanese players shuffle like this Commenting this before some smarta** calls me out

[@sarahburnside4606]

YuGiOh players sometimes shuffle like this, its so engrained that they even shuffled like this in the anime.

[@ThePokePark]

How is it possible that there isn't one line in how to shuffle and what is considered random enough? The Pokémon TCG is a worldwide community and imho there should be a worldwide standard in regards to those things. Basic rules are all the same, why not include this to it? Nice vids btw all the time regarding the TCG! Thanks for all the nice information and tips. Fell in love with the TCG due to several KZbinrs and you are one of them 😊✌🏻

[@robertommb]

Guess they (japanese) should’t be ignorant and just know how to shuffle in Worlds! But there’s no problem if the opponent can cut and shuffle their deck..

[@robertommb]

@@sarahburnside4606true!!! They do shuffle like this in the anime!

[@calebmullins3577]

I mean I don’t see anything wrong stating this is how everyone over there does it, which is what you clearly stated more than three times in the video. Again, I don’t see anything wrong with that, just thought I should point that out for your future videos

[@Lilliwn]

when they play pokemon tcg in japan, a lot of times the player doesn't even (need to) shuffle their deck. they perform the search, take the cards out, and just offer their deck for their opponent to shuffle. and that's accepted there...which is the fundamental difference - players themselves are NOT responsible to make sure their deck is sufficiently randomized after the search, their opponents are

[@michaellee228]

Good point

[@beircheartaghaistin2332]

I mean, that's a really weasily way to move the goal post. But, if it works, I just hope they feel good about the W's they aquire because I'm sure those L's really hurt 😂

[@YyNRCyY]

@@beircheartaghaistin2332for real any degree of “cheating” in any game always felt so weird to me. Like why tf would u hack in a video game or try some slight of hand. Obviously u want to win but it’s literally 0 fun if you do some scummy sh**. Never understood those weirdos

[@erikbladh7464]

So you're saying they should pile shuffle?

[@KantoCacho]

😂

[@AzulGG]

It’s the only logical answer

[@BurningLotuz]

Pile count* A "pile shuffle" is not a randomization technique.

[@duvan9880]

I have also noticed that nearly every player does look away when they're shuffling their deck, that might be a sign to show to the opponent that they are not keeping track of a card or something. Also I think the culture in Japan is very different to the rest of the world, they seem to always be very nice to each other and have respect for their opponents. I may add though that I generally feel that japanese players do not shuffle enough, as much as I think the rest of the world shuffle too much. I think right in the middle would be enough. I usually feel more frustrated when I see someone shuffle their deck in like 4 different ways for 30 seconds, just for the opponent to do 2 or 3 more different shuffles for 20 ish seconds.

[@Apocralyph]

Part of the reason for the hindu shuffle culture over there is that players like to double or even triple sleeve their deck, which makes other forms of shuffling much more inconvenient. Being fast and easy to perform is definitely an advantage of their shuffling technique. How big of a priority that is compared to the better randomization of riffle/mash shuffles is a different question though.

[@Dantinio]

I was in Tokyo in Febuary and played 5 days in a local tournament in Shinjuku. First of all the biggest difference of Japan and the rest of regions the skills level is way lower. Second of of all the people I have played only one person knew how cut like we do in the rest of the world, that was also one my only loses of all the days and at least 30 - 50 attend every night. Based on the shuffle, many people shuffle way better what the guy did in the clip. This clip is pretty bad, didn't experience it often like this.

[@KantoCacho]

I mean the Play! Pokémon tournament rules handbook doesn't say how many times to shuffle. It's pretty vague, honestly, but fair and simple. Shuffle the deck and have your opponent cut and / or shuffle again, to which the owner may cut once again afterward. Until they specify specifically what is shuffling besides that everyone should stfu and stop ranting lmao

[@takeazelfie6584]

Idk if you have any thoughts but would you be interested in doing a video on the topic of testing decks for upcoming formats vs playing for the format we are currently in?

[@_G50_]

I struggle with the normal/legal shuffling so bad no matter how much i've practiced it, that nowadays I specifically ask my opponent to extra shuffle so there's no issues or judges needed.

[@coffeedudeable]

The important word hear is malice. They aren't cheating because they are not intending to affect the deck in their own favor this is just standard practice for them. Its not malicious just not optimal.

[@theendlessgenesis]

I wish our stream looks like theirs, you can see if they played a supporter, energy and retreat at all times. also turn count

[@smcmc6276]

The only reason I can think of that this became the culture is because it is less stressful on the cards so they don't bend as much. Not a good justification but could be why they don't riffle for example.

[@DiegoDeschain]

That is exactly the reason I personally don't do any rough suffling, nor bending, slapping the card on the table, frantically shuffling the cards in hand, etc, any of that. Because I have OCD with my board/card games and always want everything to be pristine, both components/cards, as well as sleeves. Plus, I think I could justify some of it by the fact that I live in a country with draconian import taxes and a weak ass currency, so everything board/card game related is super expensive here, I cannot just be careless with my sleeves and buy new ones every now and then. For reference, Minimum wage here is around 1100 of our currency, and a pack of Dragon Shield sleeves is like more than 100 bucks of the same currency, so...yeah.

[@urawizard-cards]

I've literally always thought this when watching the Japanese champions league streams. They don't shuffle to the same level as Europeans or Americans, but having your opponent decide whether to cut or shuffle too doesn't make it a big deal, unless ofc they stacked their deck on the search. I actually think some ppl go the other way and shuffle too much..

[@AzulGG]

awful take except for the some times people do shuffle too much

[@urawizard-cards]

@@AzulGG its almost like your replies on this comments section is from a bot lol. The problem is you don't know how well randomised the deck is unless you knew the starting order to begin with. Do you think Pokemon need to make an official ruling on 'how' to shuffle to avoid this debate?

[@AzulGG]

@@urawizard-cards Yea probably having some kind of statement in the TPCI rule book saying roughly 7 mash/riffle shuffle is considered random would be good

[@jammjar8838]

​@AzulGG how much time does this take each game though? The game has problems with time already as it is, and while 7 riffles is required for a deck of 60, how many is required as the deck gets thinner and thinner? Do we need a ruling for that too? Following this, do we also need a ruling for what is 'excessive shuffling' as an excuse to delay the game. I agree some players don't shuffle enough (I played against someone today at a cup who did exclusively did this same shuffle shown in the video). At that point though I just mass shuffle their deck when cutting also to help out. I agree sufficient shuffling is important, but when time is such a major concern in a game at times i feel like there has to be some leniency.

[@quicksilver3263]

I remember watching the worlds 2019 semi's and the amount of people claiming shintaro ito cheated because he "shuffles funny" was insane

[@WTFisAuserFRCKINname]

This is proof shuffling doesn’t matter. Saying this is fine is whatever. Saying shuffling 7 times is optimal is whatever. But actually the truth is if you want TRUE randomization, you do a combination of 7 shuffles, mash shuffle, pile shuffle, whatever this guy is doing, any other way you can think to shuffle. Doing a combo of all those in one event of shuffling is the truest form of randomization.

[@AzulGG]

Nah this comment is proof

[@AzulGG]

There's no such thing as truly/more random just sufficiently/at some point the diminishing returns are so high there's no reason to shuffle further Which I have always heard/read is roughly 7 riffles and no pile counting doesn't count as a form of randomization

[@WTFisAuserFRCKINname]

Thank you for your reply, but I commented years ago on Mahone’s video like this and my opinion is still the same. Making every shuffle random is truly random. There’s no other way to truly say it. If I wanted to do it 7 times like you said, that’ll be suffice. But doing more on top of that is what makes it truly random. Say if it’s shuffled 7 times, and then the opponent doesn’t want to cut? That would be the ultimate randomization. But who even reads into this far into the comments this late. As I said, I appreciate you reading into my comment to begin with. I hope nothing ever seems mean. It’s just an opinion of a children’s card game that people love to their soul. I’m 33 by the way, brings back memories always playing this game.

[@TreYay83]

I think it also depends on how much time they spent trying to find their cards. Technically they could pick up their deck and the 2 cards they are looking for, could be the first two cards they see. At that point how many times do you really need to shuffle your deck? I know the first look, is to just make sure no important cards are prized, that's always important, but as long as they aren't re arranging stuff in their deck. And immediately find the two cards they are after, I wouldn't mind if they just cut the cards 5 or 6 different times. Then plus you always get a chance to shuffle their deck anyways, if you want to or cut it, in half or thin. I just don't think anything malicious was going on here

[@cezarykaminski2556]

Every time I tell people they don't shuffle properly, they're like "you mean stacking the deck?" 🙄

[@raandomuser710]

Ah yes I’m sure this happens every single time. Very real and accurate comment

[@VORTEX___]

I definitely appreciate that a lot of judges do intervene if they see insufficient shuffling and request the player to shuffle more.

[@Str8edgejon]

This is why you always shuffle your opponents deck.

[@Anythingelse125]

Lol give it the good ol’ massive bridge shuffle right? 😂

[@ProjectLuark]

@@Anythingelse125this is why I play the cheapest variant of a card, just in case someone has a habit of bridge shuffling. I’m not letting someone bridge shuffle my deck with like 4 $70 cards💀💀💀

[@azn3v4n]

It’s likely just as you’ve said, our perception of true shuffle randomization shouldn’t be applied to Japanese players as they’re more respectful and trusting of their opponents in shuffling their decks.

[@doopedee291]

doesnt matter how bad they shuffle, opponent has the final cut(s), etc. if they choose.

[@AzulGG]

Horrible take

[@watchmefeed3958]

@@AzulGG this whole video is a terrible take

[@AzulGG]

@@watchmefeed3958 nah u be ight

[@mochi3221]

I also heard that their matches are shorter so they dont actually do prize checks? If they are only searching the deck for what they want and don't prize check that could also be an explanation for why they do the overhand shuffle, they're not actually looking/keeping track of what else is in their deck so they shuffle with no/limited knowledge of where things would be anyways.

[@affinitymusicproduction9698]

Yes, everything is best of one 25 minutes

[@williamraker4964]

Then at all events, all players need to shuffle any and all decks that everyone will come across. It is your option to do a good randomized shuffle of your opponents deck. If you think it is not randomized enough.

[@mosesramirez3000]

The moment you give your opponent the deck to tap or shuffle/cut its no longer "cheating". Whatever the outcome is, you had the chance to shuffle as well. Simple as that. So just shuffle everytime they search and move on.

[@AzulGG]

This is a terrible take

[@cronolocklangley]

"No no... you're just ignorant." -Michael Jackson

[@CramSessions-ci7im]

Can you do a shuffling tutorial? As a new IRL player, I feel like my shuffles are still not as random and efficient as other players.

[@VyxelOP]

Would be cool if there were deck shuffling machines the judges could use for the big events.

[@wagnerabrantes4034]

machines are programmable and can easily give the impression of randomizing a deck when in fact it is selecting the exact order of cards on top of the deck

[@VyxelOP]

@@wagnerabrantes4034 if the judges are in on it. I wouldn't suggest players having access to them. And they wouldn't be any less random than a human shuffler

[@wagnerabrantes4034]

@@VyxelOP I agree that a machine is much more efficient, but it involves logistics that would change the dynamics of tournaments a lot. At least with shuffling humans it is possible to see on video if someone is cheating.

[@wagnerabrantes4034]

@@VyxelOP Mistrust increases a lot when a machine does the process, it raises many doubts. The only way to avoid this mistrust would be if the pokemon company was responsible for the machines and it was the only guarantor of their integrity. Taking into account that the pokemon company cannot even guarantee the integrity of the printing line (in case of theft of the fusion strike) there will always be people's judgment. The automated process of technology is only as good as the human process that uses it.

[@FiabaBaali]

then the machine jams once, creases a card and you are disqualified from having a non-legal deck

[@minhv5513]

The official rules on shuffling and sufficient randomization is really loose. There’s always the option for the opponent to shuffle the player’s deck instead of cutting. Where do these statements on what is sufficient shuffling coming from? By the second or third search of the deck I should know what I have in the deck. If what I need is at the bottom of my deck and I don’t look at the rest, I’ll just give it a light shuffle. I don’t know the rates of deck and hand manipulations in competitive play but if I knew how to do that stuff I wouldn’t be playing TCGs if you know what I mean.

[@AFPride0764]

I lived in Japan for 5 years and no… this isn’t how they always shuffle.

[@DDD-lx7uq]

this rant content is killin

[@ShonenStyle]

To be honest he pretty much does not look/stares at the deck.

[@scottmueller78]

Even in the yugioh anime from early 2000's the players shuffle like this. Its definitely just culturally accepted.

[@insignis9345]

I mostly play other TCG's an am new to Pokemon but from footage I have seen from Japanese players in Magic, YuGiOh, CFV ect they mash/riffle shuffle especially in official tournaments. Not sure why it's different in the pokemon TCG, probably a culture thing as you said but Pokemon has international tournaments so I find it weird that they stick with this shuffling. Interesting anyway

[@ch0ku_]

In Asian countries, sometimes players don’t shuffle at all and request that their opponent shuffle for them after a search. You are also not allowed to cut your own deck after your opponent shuffles it. In my experience, it’s because the players aren’t worried about their opponents stacking. It’s very weird to me as an American but I guess it’s just a different way to play the game

[@SpectreXS]

Sure it's a cultural thing, but they better change it. Can't trump statistics and game integrity. I doubt most japanese players are purposely stacking by doing this, but it's a very good oportunity to do so if one player wants to, because it will go unchecked.

[@tomweston3239]

I'm not saying that this kind of shuffling is right - but I really do think we both generally shuffle too much, and put too much emphasis on shuffling. Take, for example, the 6-7 riffles everyone goes on about. That's based on the number that makes every combination of cards almost equally likely. Do we really need that? I feel like realistically, only the first 3-7 cards will even be seen, so we only need each combination of them to be equally likely. which is already tens of orders of magnitude less combinations. Realistically, the bar we set shouldn't be 'the deck is random' but 'the player cannot know what they're about to draw' - and that's a much, much lower bar. 3-4 mash shuffles and maybe some overhands probably gets you there when you add in the opponent's cut - I can't see any way someone tracks a card or declumps through that.

[@moisessalas]

The japanese word they use for "shuffle" in cards like Ultra Ball, does not exactly translate as "shuffle". They use the word for "cut". So, the way StarBirth reads in is something like "Search your deck for two cards, then cut your deck". I guess that makes an impact in how accepted this type of "shuffle" is over there.

[@MrBushyGroundhog]

It's the same as speeding limits. In other areas of the world there are speeding limits that are higher than ours because they all respect and trust each other not to drive recklessly. Players in that part of the world think differently than us so their "rules" are more lax than ours

[@fresh_vertices]

they should have a member of the staff shuffling decks so players can focus on the game. XD

[@Vi-Tai]

They seem to value time actually playing the game over shuffling. I think it’s a good habit that everyone should adopt

[@hundertwaser]

As a Judge for events under TCPi, the shuffling demonstrated in this video (sometimes called an overhand shuffle) is not considered sufficient. While the culture is different in Asia when it comes to the Pokémon TCG, and the standard format is also different, the rules for playing remain the same. This isn’t sufficient randomisation, but it deffo isn’t enforced as strongly in these regions for whatever reason 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@rhyshorlock450]

I wonder if its actually partially to protect sleeves - i know a lot of japanese players love their art sleeves and by doing this sort of shuffle, they prolong the life of those sleeves

[@JT-hh2ik]

Just mash shuffle. If they care about their art sleeves, they should have outer sleeves for their art sleeves anyway.

[@JO-iv7tl]

Pokemon is a game by its very design incapable of satisfying the concept of pure randomized state of the deck. The very act of creating cards able to search the deck to get desired cards undermines this concept. Each search exponentially deviates randomized state of the deck. It's either accept searching exists and that any giving deck will always be a known quantity after said search card has been used.( He built the deck, can prize check and actually got to look into his deck) the alternative is to ban search cards all together in order maintain perfect game state of a truly randomized deck, at all times during a game.since he will only know what is in his hand, not the deck or prizes at any time in game.

[@icebergslim1872]

I'm a former yugioh player and play modern magic and pokemon now (and hearthstone) and this is how every Asian/Japanese guys shuffled playing across all games, so I'd say it's a cultural thing. I think it came from YuGiOh though. I don't think Japanese players prize check or try and remember where something is in there deck, I believe it's very taboo to cheat over there. Idk though.

[@donaldcornwell8956]

I feel like there is not enough Japanese champions to really consider this to be an issue!

[@AzulGG]

Terrible take try again

[@josueluevano9716]

when will we have a video about Isaiah Bradner's cheating?

[@oxfordbambooshootify]

What about when Japanese players play in international tournaments? Do they suddenly change the way they shuffle to comply to a higher standard?

[@idontthink]

He talks about it in the video.

[@roarbahamut9866]

Are people not allowed to cut the oponents deck in the pokemon TCG? In Yugioh, after every shuffle, I get to reshuffle your deck. If you then want to shuffle again, I get to shuffle again.

[@spacedaddy6181]

People always cut or shuffle the opponents deck in ptcg too, and that's why Japanese players don't shuffle their own deck a lot, because it's more like what their opponents need to do.

[@Steven-ez3kv]

yuuya watanabe, a disgraced mtg hall of famer, became notorious for cheating because the sleeves of specific key cards in his deck at a major tournament were distinctly marked (one corner for one playset, another corner for a different playset, etc.) however, if you observe his matches, you can see that he does riffle/mash in a way that would be considered "sufficiently random" for western players

[@heavenlydogg]

I think, per usual, Americans are the problem. Like you said, the Japanese enjoy honorable, honest competition so something like shuffling isn't important because both players are under the assumption that they have the same values. That shit would work here because one side of the table would definitely be fucking cheating and the other side wants to win so bad, even if they weren't cheating that's bitch and complain until SOME type of disciplinary action is taken. We are the best country in the world for all the wrong reasons and we look at other countries innocence as dishonesty which says more about us than it does them.

[@ArsTheurgiaGoetia]

Is double nickleing cheating if you didn’t know it wasn’t allowed, as was evidently the case for those guys who both did it on stream and were both penalized? My first tournament of magic when I was a kid I would ask what kind of deck my opponent had and immediately swap cards out to counter, I legitimately didn’t know you couldn’t do so (the rules I had read on sideboarding was vague on timing) and eventually directly asked why they were so open about it when I could easily do that in response - they were relieved that my record was 0/3 (lmao) so they didn’t have to fix anyone’s records after I was DQ’d. I think that it’s fair to have called my actions cheating even if I didn’t intend it to be. I think you’re right that JP players shouldn’t be treated as inherently dishonest, but I do think it is unintentionally cheating, and I’ll even go as far as to say I also think the top players likely are making their best attempts to track cards through their overhand shuffling because they surely wouldn’t ignore any advantage - like taking extra, legal actions to burn down the clock, it’s just thought of as another technique.

[@amexicancelt8002]

Played too much YGOCG to not see that almost lose my cool. Lol Cheating is rampant at tournaments

[@ParacticoolGaming]

It's not actually shuffling

[@crystalcrush7842]

Huh ironic

[@adpgxsoftware]

ruins the characters sleeves they are fond of using

[@michaelraices1]

Maybe all this hyper competitive rules nuance is what keeps people out of the game 🎯 Isn't this all organized for fun and pleasure? Why take it so serious? Top players and influencers of all varieties of games spoil it for viewers and players alike. They assume the attention of the base in being an awfully vocal minority group. Given they are the players to beat it, doesn't mean we all don't come to play and have a good time. It's just hard to when you come to enjoy yourself and others treat the tabletop like a warzone. Nothing to enjoy about war in Pokemon.

[@kasidit9]

next let's talk about sleeves // outer sleeves are bad for shuffle but asian always use it ..

[@bruneiprs4854]

Wow a 9 minutes video that can be done in 20 seconds. You are repeating the same points again and again and again.

[@AzulGG]

wow

[@kaiserflame1673]

Honestly this is a rare miss from Azul. What kind of logic is this. If someone kills a person, but doesn't know that killing people is bad, is it still ok cause they grew up thinking killing people was bad? Would you apply this logic anywhere else? If someone was raised racist, and later is racist to others, is it ok? Of course not.

[@AzulGG]

Lol yes let’s just jump to every extreme possible for everything It’s almost like you didn’t watch the video but that wouldn’t surprise me I said in the video I think they should do better but assuming they’re cheating is stupid

[@kaiserflame1673]

@@AzulGG I'm a fan of yours, and I watched the video. But you're definitely misled on this opinion. First, you go to the extremes to test your opinions and make sure they hold up. Second, maybe it'd be good to rewatch your own video and see how it holds up from a 3rd party perspective. Maybe you think you said one thing, but said another. For the future, attack the argument, not the commenter. Love your vids, can't wait for the NAIC blog.

[@AzulGG]

@@kaiserflame1673 what extreme did I jump to? By this I mean my argument for well if that's how they shuffle based on the way everyone plays the game around them it's understandable you saying "so if people kill people around someone then it's fine if they kill someone" is the extreme I meant and a silly response to my argument

[@kaiserflame1673]

@@AzulGG No, you said I jumped to extremes on your first comment lol. I wasn't accusing you of jumping to an extreme.

[@kaiserflame1673]

@@AzulGG Yes its understandable, I get that. But its not excusable.

[@WTFisAuserFRCKINname]

Man, you can tell you’re a youtuber because you commented hours before the video posted, “protecting” yourself from anyone talking about the Japanese in a negative way, calling them assholes preemptively? You commented to my comment earlier in a defensive way. You need to start reading comments in a way that are positive. You also need to not care about what people think of you in the comments. You get Top 8’s like they’re handouts and peons like me shouldn’t affect you. The only thing comments should be good for (for you) is if they like your content or not. Like me, if the videos are youtube-exclusive for at least one match, I give it a like. If the video is not, I give a dislike and say why. I think you’d be happier (who knows how/who you are irl) if you just read comments in a happy tone. Besides derek jeter’s comments.

[@AzulGG]

Nah I’ll be ight

[@Rucifer5133]

What's shuffle means ? Judge should do their work!!

[@nelsonbabilonia4405]

Daaaaaaamn gotta be careful with japs 🤭

[@bryanadams61]

Swear only in Pokémon they complain about how you shuffle 💀. This games community lowkey really toxic always people trying to get a judge call where they can

[@natebrown6460]

Nah, every game under the sun has chicken littles.

[@oxfordbambooshootify]

No. Either you're shuffling your deck or you're not. This is clearly not a shuffle

[@raandomuser710]

Pokémon definitely isn’t the only game. Magic has it banned pretty sure, bc pile shuffling can make it very easy to stack the deck thru double nickeling. Seems like you’re the toxic/ignorant one to me.

[@Anythingelse125]

@@oxfordbambooshootify I bet you’re one of the guys at the tournament yelling “JUUUUUDGEEEE” every 5 min

[@oxfordbambooshootify]

@@Anythingelse125 what's the matter? Bet you felt personally attacked by my statement

[@BlueGuy8228]

japanese people are just more trustworthy and have more respect for others so thats why when doing this they still dont cheat unlike some people in amarica

[@shinyluckfairy]

Honestly, I’m confused about why they allow People to shuffle their own decks. They literally have machines that shuffle decks. On top of that, the Pokémon Company has billions of $ and they can afford to build custom deck shufflers instead of letting People shuffle their own deck. On top of that, I’m confused why players are allowed to shuffle their own deck. If they don’t have a machine that shuffles decks, then the opponent should shuffle the deck.

[@boxkid759]

Nah this is a bad take.

[@shinyluckfairy]

@@boxkid759 well someone needs to do it, you shouldn’t be allowed to shuffle your own deck. Do you not realize that people can count cards right? Especially when you’re the 1 shuffling your own deck

[@boxkid759]

@@shinyluckfairy you sound like an insane person. That's why opponents can cut and or shuffle the deck after a player shuffles. Saying you shouldn't be able to shuffle your own deck is one of the worst takes I've ever heard in my 6 years of playing this game.

[@shinyluckfairy]

@@boxkid759 first off it’s rude to call me insane because I am Mentally Disabled. The Referee should shuffle the deck every time or use a machine to shuffle. Did you not watch that video? People cheat shuffle all the time and it ruins the Game. Personally, I don’t care about your Opinion because I’m stating Facts unlike you.

[@boxkid759]

@@shinyluckfairy insane is being used as a hyperbole. Relax. Yes people cheat. But no. Shuffle your own deck. Having machines at each of the 500+ tables at events is asinine. It's not that hard to tell if your opponent is doing some malicious. What should a judge start telling you want plays to make as well? Give me a break.