Japanese Point-of-View Deconfused! -もらう・てもらう morau, te-morau | Lesson 49

[@POPpopPOPE]

I’ve never experienced such in depth explanations that are easy to comprehend. Most textbooks try to use “easy to comprehend” methods like you said, but they just make it more confusing. Why are there no resources out there that are like dictionaries where there is an in depth English explanation, like what you do, for Japanese words and sentence constructs? It would be so helpful. I can’t believe an AI so grammatically and technically advanced in speaking even English exists. Thanks for all the help, 先生.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Thank you so much!

[@Codyyyyyyyyyy]

Excellent video! I had never seen the similarities between -もらう and the receptive form before. This video definitely helped me get a better grasp on what's happening.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

That's good. No one ever points it out because they are stuck in thinking that the receptive is "passive".

[@geniusssmit2305]

Great explanation as always, thank you very much!

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Thank you!

[@smudge8882]

Thank you, Cure Dolly! I've been getting started with immersion lately and have been seeing these words a lot. I couldn't understand the difference but I think I get it now :) Rest in peace, kind android.

[@zamyrabyrd]

Wow, another stumbling block out of the way, thanks! I asked a few Japanese speakers to please explain morau when seeing it in a context that could not be explained by its alleged relation to ageru or kureru, but with no success. I tried to organize the three verbs in my mind but in practice, got flummoxed everytime. Seeing it as a receiver in the manner of the helping endings you already explained makes it much easier to understand.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

I'm so glad this helps. I think it is a problem area for a lot of people - and a interesting illustration of how misteaching one structure element leads to misteaching another. The "family resemblance" between もらう and れる・られる is clear, and provided we have already grasped the receptive principle, easy to understand. But if れる・られる has been misconceived as "passive", teachers/explainers are at a loss for a simple and clear explanation. Of course this applies to native Japanese too, as most natives don't understand the structure of their language on a theoretical level (they do it by instinct), and Japanese natives who teach Japanese to English-based learners have to use the same English-based models as everyone else since up to now no other English-language models existed.

[@Randhrick]

Oh, your like an anime series now you end your lesson with cliffhanger :) Not but seriously thank you very much for another eyes opening lesson, I still have issues with ageru/kureru and morau but it's getting better. I am looking forward to the next episo..... errrrr I mean lesson .

[@1984Joby]

Haha if she were like most anime S2 would never be made and you'd be forced to go back to the source material. :D

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

I thought this story arc needed to be developed over two episodes.

[@DANGJOS]

After watching the Japanesepod101 video on morau, I eventually figured that it was very similar to the so called passive form. Pretty interesting

[@a.m.4479]

Notes for myself: Kureru and ageru ("give down" and "give up" (an abject or an action), although originally honorific (they stem from regarding the other person as higher than oneself), are not keigo nowadays; they are neutral (or even disrespectful in some cases, in the case of ageru): shite ageru means doing for the benefit of (someone else), and kureru can imply gratitude but doesn't imply humility. Thus, instead of "give down" and "give down", kureru and ageru can be seen as "download" and "upload" Morau = "download" ☆Morau is similar to kureru in that they are both "download" verbs. But, when used with the te-form, kureru is more of a "push" download (someone else taking the initiative), while morau is more of a "pull" download (oneself taking the initiative) -> that's why morau is used when talking about going for a seeked service ☆Either when used with a noun or with the te-form of a verb, morau does not need to impply a particular giver; it is receiver-centered (unlike "kureru" and "ageru", which are bound to a particular giver and receiver) Example ichiman en wo moratta = I got ten thousand yen -> The implication is it came from somewhere, it was given perhaps by someone, or at least it came very easily. But we're not saying anything about who gave it to us or where it came from or how it all came about, unlike "kureru" and "ageru", which are bound to a particular giver and receiver. ☆With morau, if we want to show the giver of an action, we mark the giver with -ni, but if we want to show the giver of an object, we mark the giver with kara ☆We saw that with morau, if no giver is mentioned, then no giver is necessarily implied. But when a giver is mentioned, it is marked by the ni logical particle, just like the source of the received action in receptive sentences. Both morau and -reru/-rareru are pull verbs that mark the giver of the received action with ni. The difference is that, the receptive is used for received actions that just happen to us whether we want it or not, that is, external actions that really aren't our doing, while morau is used for actions that we seek, that is, actions that we go and bring upon ourselves, purposefully -> morau used when talking about paying/going for a service (Screenshot) -> actor IS specified (with ni particle) "I will have a doctor see me / I will get examined by a doctor)" (Acreenshot) -> actor NOT specified "Have someone cut my hair" (Screen) -> actor NOT specified "You shoul get your hair cut" ☆The person that "does" the morau, that is, the person "morau-ing" (ga-marked noun), does not have to be the speaker -> contrast this with kureru, with which the person "doing" the kureru (ga-marked noun) has to be you, your group, someone in your group or someone you identify with

[@kioalne]

Thanks my guy, this helped me understand a bit more of the lesson

[@a.m.4479]

@@kioalne Yo, I'm so glad!!

[@namename4980]

最高の先生にもう一つのすごいビデオを教えられてもらった!

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

本当にありがとうございます。I hope you won't mind if I use your kind words as a "teaching moment". You should have said 教えてもらった because we can't use two receptives at the same time. So we can say 教えられた or 教えてもらった, both meaning "received being taught" but combining the two doesn't work. You might, of course, be meaning the potential られる here, but that doesn't work either because although we often talk about things like 会える (being able to meet) implying gratitude for the opportunity to do so (much more than English would), we don't talk about receiving from someone the opportunity in quite this way. However, if you say 教えてもらった that is perfect, and it raises Two subtler points about the use of ○○てもらう. The first is that it is very flexible in whether or not it implies action on the part of the receiver. If one wants to imply that the receiver was the initiator (for example purchasing a service) ○○てもらう is the right choice, but in a case like this where no such implication is intended, it is also the right choice because: Point two is that when compared to 教えられた it is more "personal". That is, while when compared to くれる it is much more receiver-centered and doesn't necessarily imply a giver, when compared to れる・られる in a case like this, it is more "personal". Both can mean "received (from you)" but もらう accords the giver more of a place than れる・られる (making it the right choice for this situation). So we are getting into shades of meaning here that are best assimilated through immersion experience, but having them made explicit can expedite the process I believe.

[@namename4980]

Organic Japanese with Cure Dolly 分かりました。どうもありがとうございました！　さすがクアドッリ先生です！本当に最高の先生です！

[@deedanner6431]

I just watched a video with "Tanaka-san wa Suzuki san ni hon (w)o moraimasu". She said that "ni" can also mean "from". I immediately came here to see what Cure Dolly had to say about this. :-)

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Well this is a typical "English-based explanation". Yes in English terms under certain specific circumstances に can end up marking a noun that something is (in English terms) coming from. But this is all connected with the "pull" nature of the helper-verb involved and the fact that に marks the indirect target of verbs. So I don't see it as a particularly helpful statement.

[@daydarasensei12]

We miss you Dolly Sensei

[@dariorigon7905]

I am terribly scared of studying some japanese random book now

[@Helena-or8bs]

Hi Cure Dolly, Thank you as always for these videos which have proven very helpful with my studies of Japanese (I study it at university yet I can confidently say these videos have taught me more than many classes). I was thinking of the sentence 'It is my purpose to get people to read Japanese literature' and tried using it in order to understand the differences between causative, てもらう, and させてもらう, but seem to get lost at some point. I would appreciate it if you could let me know if the following thought processes are correct: (oが）目的は他人に日本文学を読ませる。 Core: I cause Subclause: Other people read Japanese literature As for my goal, it is to cause others to read Japanese literature. (oが）目的は他人に日本文学を読んでもらう。 Core: I (pull) receive Subclause: Other people read Japanese literature As for my goal, it is to receive the favour of others reading Japanese literature Is it right to assume that these two have a different tone? The first implies that it is simply something you cause whereas the second implies more politeness (ie that you are grateful for others reading Japanese literature for you)? (oが）目的は他人に日本文学を読ませてもらう。 This is where I become confused. Does this mean I receive the favour of being allowed to read Japanese literature by others? In which case am I doing the reading and receiving, whilst others are doing the allowing? My main issue is why させて is used in relation to 他人 rather than (oが) / myself. I think that I have gotten lost somewhere in the whole process. こんな長くてバラバラな質問を聴くのは先生にとって面倒だと思うので聞いていただけてありがとうございます。(hoping this sentence makes sense!)

[@Yunotchi]

Thank you for another useful video. I came across this sentence, which is spoken by one character to another when they are about to visit a friend who is making lunch: 「しっかり食べさせてもらおう」 Does this mean something like, "Let's receive being caused to eat well"? Edit: whoops, I should've commented on lesson 50

[@pampelmuse5403]

thank you so much!!

[@nleseul]

It's also great when the lesson that combines these throws in 差し上げる and 頂く as well. If I'm understanding your explanation correctly, it would still be valid (if perhaps unnatural) to say 千円をもらった if you found the money lying in the street, correct? Whereas 千円をくれた would always imply an agent who did the giving.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Yes, exactly. もらう generally implies a (possibly quite vague) giver/doer, but it is so receiver-centered that using it in the case of just finding something, while perhaps not technically correct, is not unusable. I am not teaching keigo at this stage. Essentially 差しあげる and 頂く are keigo for あげる and もらう. However I will certainly need to mention 頂く in the next lesson because it is sometimes used outside strictly keigo-type contexts to soften any わがまま impression that could be given by もらう.

[@mancheezethegreat8617]

Thank you once again Dolly. I did indeed rub a mouse Buddha belly for you, for luck. 私の胃潰瘍を治した。

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

ありがとうございます。胃潰瘍が治ってよかったです！嬉しいです。

[@kaminarizue1601]

It was an awesome explanation. I've never seen temorau from that approach. That's why the expression ~~に助けてもらった、 I usually used the expression for, I asked for ....., is there any other possibility of interpretation Spectrum?

[@louieberen4293]

Hi Cure Dolly, Just want to check if I got it correctly: メアリーにボールを投げられた。 I got thrown by the ball (thrown) by Mary. or Mary threw a ball to me . メアリーにボールを投げてもらった。 I had Mary to throw the ball to me. (because I asked for it). Thank you!

[@louieberen4293]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you so much! One last question for below sentence. Since Mary is the source of the action, I realized where did Mary throw the ball? Is it to me (the invisible が)? メアリーにボールを投げてもらった。 I had Mary to throw the ball to me. (because I asked for it).

[@sirmoco]

I'm having some trouble understanding the second sentence too. Could you please clarify, Cure Dolly sensei?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@louieberen4293 Yes that's right. Whoever did the もらうing (by default the speaker) is obviously also the person to whom Mary threw the ball (because that is what she もらった - received).

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@louieberen4293 Yes, this is correct. Strictly it isn't "Mary threw a ball to me" (although that is what happened) because that would simply be. メアリーが私にボールをなげた (not a receptive sentence).

[@louieberen4293]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you for your help!!

[@POPpopPOPE]

Also, I haven’t checked, but do you have a video on the differences between てform+いる and て-いた, along with their usage with とき in prepositional phrases? I was also confused about whether the “past tense” in Japanese is always considered to be a “perfective aspect” when applies to different auxiliary verbs. For example, what would the most literal meaning of “本を読んだ” mean on it’s own? Would it imply he read to completion, or would it mean that he simply read some of the book, or would more information usually be given if said without much prior context? Also how would one express “He has read the book,” which is a present experiential aspect. And again, would it be implied that it was done to completion if said alone? Anyways, as always, thank you for the help!

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

I dealt with this right back in Lesson 4 kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooaYo6CodrSFers Japanese does not have a lot of Latinate tenses. When it wants to express particular time aspects it uses a variety of strategies. The simple tenses are past, non-past and continuative (past or non-past) that is the ○○ている form (lit. exist in a state of ○○ing). Japanese non-past is quite similar to English non-past, and as with English is its dictionary form. If you weren't aware of the English non-past the video explains that too (in many ways English is often as badly described as Japanese). So 本を読んだ means simply "∅ read the book". If we want to say that it had been completed we can add helper verbs like きる. 読みきる means "read completely/finish reading" and can be put into the past if desired. To say we have read a book we would say 読んだことがある literally "the fact of having read it exists". Overall I think it is best to jettison the concepts of Western Classical grammar in relation to Japanese. This is a system of classifying language that applies very well to Latin, a little less well to modern Romance languages, less well again to English and extremely poorly to Japanese.

[@Asab972]

Thank you so much for this video. If I understand correctly the verb before "morau" is not done by the same person that does the "morau"-ing? For some reason I assumed that a chain of verbs (te-forms) are done by the same person.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

In the case of any receptive ("pull") sentence - whether もらう or the receptive (miscalled passive) helper itself, and also any causative sentence, the two verbs must always be performed by two different actors.

[@Asab972]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you so much, this really cleared up my understanding of it.

[@BabyBalla3score]

Here's a sentence that I stumbled across leading me to this video, 選手村の料理をみんなに考えてもらうのは, 初めてです. Here is the topic of the nhk easy article where I found that sentence, 東京オリンピック選手が食べる料理をみんなに考えてもらう. It's quite similar. Sticking to the first sentence, how is もらう "translated" here to English. It's a zero ga sentence but I'm thinking the ga marked actor is the Olympic athletes. If so, they would be the ones receiving the action of others thinking about their food, right? I feel ashamed to ask on the second sentence but that is also a zero ga as well, right? オリンピック選手 precedes が but everything that precedes 料理 is essentially background information about the food which is the direct object, not the subject. The idea of "receiving the action of thought from everyone" would be the same. Lastly, if you take the time to read this, which I certainly hope you have the time to do, would you recommend me purchasing "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar." I saw it was recommended on your site but I was wondering if getting by with your videos, japanese stack exchange posts, and other websites would be sufficient. I find myself looking up grammar all the time when I'm reading and having watched your videos, I feel that I've got a lot to learn even though I read Genki 1 & 2 (which aren't entirely terrible in my opinion although your videos really disprove some of their English translations, etc.). Tae Kim's grammar guide also seems highly recommended and I haven't read the essential grammar section yet. Thank you for your videos!

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

The subject of the first sentence is indeed ∅が and the subject is defined by the topic, which is の. So the core sentence if we include the non-logical part is のは∅が初めてです。In other words the topic is のは and the comment on it is the logical clause ∅が初めてです. Everything else is modifying that のは which in turn defines the ∅. the modifying (white-car) logical clause is 選手村の料理をみんなに考えてもらう and _its_ (white) ∅が is not clearly defined but is, I believe, what in English would be the equally undefined "they". "They" are receiving the thinking of everyone on the competitors' cuisine. Or in slightly more natural English "they" are having everyone contribute their thoughts on the competitors' cuisine. Who are "they"? Presumably the organizers. We can take it that they are actively doing this, rather as someone actively gets her hair cut - 散髪してもらう, so it would not be the competitors themselves who, while they will be the ultimate receivers, are not the ones soliciting, or actively triggering, the reception. Also they are not the ones who receive the _thinking_ - what they receive is the cuisine. The second sentence works similarly to the white portion of the first and the black ∅が is again that same "they" - the people who initiated the process, presumably the organizers of the catering. On textbooks. My recommendation was made a long time ago before I started this series. I would still say that the Basic and Intermediate Grammar Dictionaries are pretty good, though obviously they perpetuate many of the misconceptions I try to dispel. I have released a lot more in-depth material than I had at that time and I think with that plus looking things up online as necessary a reference book shouldn't be a necessity if you don't want one. Tae Kim-sensei is aware of the logical problems with conventional Western "Japanese grammar" but I would say tries to solve the problem by making the right half wrong to match the wrong half. He denies that Japanese has a grammatical subject and reduces だ・です to a mere "declarative" with no copula function. He _has_ to do this because he is a very logical person and realizes that if there is no subject there can be no copula either. In one sense this is an improvement on conventional "Japanese grammar", which happily teaches logical contradictions. I wrote about the no-subject aspect of Tae Kim's thesis here: learnjapaneseonline.info/2016/09/04/is-there-a-grammatical-subject-in-japanese/ This does not mean that I am saying one should avoid his work, but one should be aware of the problems. None of this is necessarily fatal. People _do_ learn Japanese from Genki. It depends how much ability one has to compute illogical descriptions. I am an android so I have nearly none. Many humans seem to manage quite well with illogical models - but also many get tripped up by them.

[@BabyBalla3score]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed answer. After reading it 5 times through, I perfectly understand (was having trouble with the white and black が for some reason). This video and response have helped greatly. I'm finding it more and more true what you said back in your first 2 lessons that が really is the cornerstone of every Japanese sentence. Thanks again!

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Thank you. I'm glad I was able to help. To add a footnote on the "they" of this sentence, I think it could be used in English in that form, "they", but it would seem a little odd. In French they would, I think happily use "on" with a structure (in that respect) closer to the Japanese. It is notable that the word "one"(related to French "on" usage) as in "one can't get decent tea these days", while still used, is highly unfashionable in modern English. I have said that English has evolved to be highly ego/individual-centric and it continues to evolve in that direction, deprecating still-existing forms that do not specifically identify the "hero" or "culprit" such as "one" and the English "passive voice".

[@1984Joby]

Another excellent video! ドリーの文法のレッスンは砂漠での水滴のようだ。もっと欲しい。:-)

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

本当にありがとうございます。了解しました。文法のレッドをします。By the way did you post a longer comment in Japanese? I seemed to see it on my dashboard and it disappeared. It may be that KZbin ate it. Feel free to re-post.

[@1984Joby]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 indeed it did eat my comment, grrr. But it is OK. I did want to run by an age old question about obligation. I have used your grammar lessons to infer the difference between なければいけない and なければならない。Hopefully I get it that the first means "if I don't do (it), (it) will be bad" and the second is more of a lot of negatives, なければ is the same as "if I don't do it" then なら you taught in that case to be like "if/if it is the case" and ない being not something like "if I don't do it, it is not the case?". I am inferring that the prior is like something you come to of your own decision and the other might be something from an outside force since it is basically adding a negative to the already negative? Also I saw some posts about なくて and how it ties into both of them as well. Is there a quick answer or were you planning on doing a video about obligation at some point?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@1984Joby The ならない in なければならない isn't the conditional なら + ない, it is the あ-stem of なる (become) + ない so literally しなければならない is "if I don't do it won't become". This is similar in meaning to "can't go" in なければいけない. It can also, a little less commonly, but not uncommonly, be しなければなれない (can't become). The meaning here is similar to the older use of "becoming" in English, meaning fitting, suitable, acceptable. I talked about the use of なくては in this kind of "must" context in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p4eQhY2YqK1koas If by obligation you mean these "must" constructs, I feel I have covered them over a few videos although admittedly none isolates the topic and treats it as a whole. It might feel like old material if I were to dedicate a video to it though.

[@1984Joby]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 ahh that makes so much more sense! I do remember the ては lesson and have notes on it I review from time to time but I guess I have to look over なくては a bit more. I do like when you cover things as a concept and not just piece wise; it helps see the whole picture. You mini series on conditionals, likeness expressions and limiters for example were very effective at teaching an entire concept.

[@harveyfresh6701]

Hi Dolly Sensei, What is the difference between もらう and 受ける?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

They are different words with a different range of meanings and only a very limited area of overlap in everyday use. 受ける can mean actively "accept" and also receive something adverse like a punishment or take a test etc. - none of which もらう normally can. もらう can combine with the て-form of verbs to do the things discussed in this video. 受ける can't. And all the other usages of もらう discussed in this video would be incorrect or at least unnatural with 受ける.

[@harveyfresh6701]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 hmmm I did not know about that aspect of 受ける meaning to receive something adverse. Thanks!

[@YokaiTheGameGuy]

Amazing lesson! I do have a question though; are " を" and "に" interchangeable when marking the untimate giver of a sentence with もらう, or are there situations that one would be more appropriate than the other?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

In action-receiving (Xてもらう) sentences, the ultimate giver can _only_ be marked by に. を plays a completely different role in marking the direct object of the secondary action (the one that isn't もらう) if there is one.

[@YokaiTheGameGuy]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 OH! I see where I went wrong with what I was reading, but another question has come up. For context, I was watching a playthrough of Pokemon Leaf Green, and when recieving the starter pokemon, the text read "レッドはオーキドからヒトカゲをもらった" Is this just another case of the particle being dropped but is understood as being there, or is に not needed because of から?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@YokaiTheGameGuy This is why I specified action-receiving (Xてもらう) sentences in my last answer. Where what is being received is a thing (or in this case a pokemon) rather than an action it is a different structure altogether. There is only one action, not two in this kind of sentence (and that is もらう) and を marks the direct object of the receiving. This is not a "pull sentence". It is a straightforward receiving-an-object sentence.

[@YokaiTheGameGuy]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Ahh. I see, i see. Okay, its definitely easier to understand now. Thank you so much for the clarification and taking time out to answer my questions on older videos! It really means a lot!

[@LordOfEnnui]

I've been wondering if there is a dictionary that uses your (the Japanese) point of view.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

J-J dictionaries. Not as hard as you might think: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4iQoapjeqaAobs

[@epictyro9093]

10:20 why is もらう in the past tense here? amazing video as always by the way!

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Interestingly, this is similar to English. In various conditional and advisory constructions the past tense is used. For example, in the case you link to, we would say "You _had_ better get your hair cut" rather than "You _have_ better get your hair cut". Why is "had" in the past rather than the present tense? It is a very similar construction to the Japanese one.

[@epictyro9093]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 thank you for the explanation :)

[@Freakohollik]

At 11:00, the video talks about to whom morau can refer. And at 11:35, the video says "We can freely talk about other people "morau"-ing, receiving something". This is in conflict with what the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar says. The morau2 section, note1, in that book says "the recipient of the favor (i.e., the person in the subject position) must be the first person or someone with whom the speaker empathizes (usually a member of the speaker's in-group)." Does that mean the sources contradict or is there some other explanation?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

I am not sure if they were talking about some particular use of もらう. If they were talking about もらう in the absolute, this simply isn't the case. Constructions like the one I used in the video 散髪をしてもらったほうがいい - _you_ should get your hair cut_ - are extremely common and there are many other circumstances in which もらう gets used for other people. This gets very puzzling when one starts reading books or watching anime as one tries to apply the くれる rule to もらう and can't work out whom they are referring to (since the くれる rule isn't applying). ff two sources appear to contradict, my advice (since the only place to learn Japanese is in direct immersion - abstract explanations - including mine - are nothing more than stepping stones) is to hold the two possibilities in your mind and see what you find in real life.

[@deedanner6431]

I ran into "今から 皆さんに 時間を借りて お話を 聞いてもらいます" today. G-translate gives "I'll take the time to listen to you from now on ". So, 皆さん is "pull-receiving" お話を 聞い from the subject?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

G-translate is talking through its hat. The speaker wants to _borrow_ some time from everyone and _receive_ from them the act of listening to the story.

[@deedanner6431]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Oooooh... this is like a compound sentence "皆さんに 時間を借り" (て) "お話を 聞いてもらいます" ?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@deedanner6431 Yes, exactly.

[@mikomichael9555]

Hey dolly sensei Is the (で) in this sentence the copula one or the particle? 3社合同で新作の発表会を開きました I guess it’s the copula one but i am not sure

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

Yes this would be the copula. It is an example of a very common formula, often in the form of みんなで○○をする. The ∅が here is of course みんな since they are the ones doing ○○ fust as the three united companies are opening (holding) the presentation. So the で is really prefacing the statement with a mini-logical clause saying "there were three united companies and (they)", "it was all of us and (we)". So the strict logical structure is: [∅がみんなで]　∅が○○ Or [∅が3社合同で] ∅が新作の発表会を開きました With the square brackets marking off the prefatory statement establishing the group of actors.

[@mikomichael9555]

玄関に靴がずらりと並んでいたな And what does the と do here in this sentence?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

ずらり is what is called a 擬態語 which is a mimetic word that imitates the "sound' an action makes. The sound is purely notional and cannot be literally heard. English definitions sometimes refer to this class of word as "onomatopoeia" which is not strictly correct (since there is no literal sound) but probably the nearest word for it in English. There are however a few slightly similar words in English, like "twinkle" which describes vaguely audially how something shines. In Japanese the quotation particle と kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZW8hWmOm5Z1oaM is used to indicate the sound something makes, even when it isn't a literal sound.

[@edwardvalleser3722]

Cure dolly sensei, so in this sentence 妻にも、まだまだ働いてもらって, is the wife also the giver of the action? I'm confused because the sentence is translated as: "I have my wife too work a while longer," it seems that from the english translation the giver of the action is the speaker and the receiver is the wife.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

It is structured just like (with slight complication of the も and まだまだ) - お医者さんに見てもらう. "my wife from also, still working-receive". In other words I am not yet fully working to support the family, my wife is still working too.

[@dantheman7848]

Hi Cure Dolly, great video as always! I noticed that in your example メアリーにボールを投げった it is interpreted as "I threw the ball at Mary" rather than "I threw the ball to Mary". Would あげる be used for the latter interpretation as in: メアリーにボールを投げてあげた? As in I didn't throw it at her, potentially with the intention of hitting her, but rather to her, so that she could catch it. A second question, slightly more convoluted: 1) バスにぶつかれた vs. 2)バスにぶつかってもらった Would both of these be interpreted as "I got hit by a bus" but the first one implies that I had nothing to do with it, and the second is more like I did something to make that happen?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

It could equally be "at" or "to" since に simply marks the indirect object (the ultimate receiver of the action rather than the thing directly acted on - in this case the ball), and that is true in either case. あげる would be used if this were in some sense a "favor" to her. So, for example, if one was passing it to her in a basketball game, あげる would normally be inappropriate as it is simply a regular part f the game. If one was deliberately trying to give her a chance to score (as a personal kindness to her rather than for the good of the team) あげる might be used. バスにぶつかってもらった is not natural because it implies that getting hit by the bus was something one wanted and perhaps even arranged for. The thing in both cases is that English tends to be a relatively "neutral" language, simply describing what happens without adding any implicit comment on its "value" in the grammar itself. However もらう, くれる and あげる are all what we might call "value grammar" that is, they do have implications about the value and/or intentions of an action.

[@dantheman7848]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you for that in-depth explanation. The basketball example was very clear. Also appreciate the explanation for the bus example even though it was bizarre. I find it easier for grammar points to stick if I have an unconventional example to go by. I arranged for the bus to hit me because I wanted the insurance money :) 教えてくれてありがとうございます

[@ribbanya]

Before seeing the video I'd never thought very much about this, but... In anime, when characters are fighting, one character will often say 「もらった！」 This is often translated as "got you!" "you're mine!" etc. What does this mean to a Japanese person? Does it imply "I had you act in a way that was advantageous to me," or in real English, "I tricked you/used you"?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

This pretty much literally means "got you". It could mean tricking someone into acting in an advantageous manner but remember that the construction for that is Xてもらう. Of course as with all zero-pronoun sentences context is king, but the most basic meaning would be "got it" it, or in this case "you".

[@ribbanya]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 I see. My assumption was that there was a missing て verb in that セリフ.

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@ribbanya If context suggests it it is possible (with such truncated speech) but otherwise there is no reason to suppose so.

[@user-uc9gi2xf8r]

Awesome video as to be expected from you. I would like some assistance with the following sentence: (context: in kaichou wa meido sama, one of the maids that works with the protagonist is saying how happy she is working there. Sorry, the sentence got cut off yomichan, so there is a たり hanging. I don't remember the rest :(...). 夢を形にして誰かに喜んでもらえたり I think I get something as: "I am able to (among other things) happily make dreams come true for anyone..." Help..... Also, I ran into this: 攻略に燃えるキャラ、そして萌える, in the context of the protagonist's boss lauding her working attitude despite having a menacing face ????? (yes, anime-teki)攻略に燃えるキャラ is what I found no explanation for. Do you recommend any dictionaries for slang, expressions and katakana words? I am so used to knowing like 8 English dictionaries to turn to should I run into something I don-t know that now I just feel bummed...

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

It means literally "dreams shape/form turn-into and be able to receive doing-happy from someone". In more natural English (which really can't do this) maybe something like "make dreams become reality and be able to make someone happy." Expressions like よろこんでくれる・よるくんでもらう always refer to someone liking an action one did (or a gift one gave - which is still an action) - the liking being seen as something we receive. Very alien to English.

[@user-uc9gi2xf8r]

​@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Almost all sentences I see in native material are so strange compared to English and Spanish. Like I kind of understand, get the "feeling" but then I confuse myself by trying to phrase them into my native language, or English... So I have stopped doing that. Japanese is just that alien as you say. Thank you very much for your answer. Pardon my rudeness, but I edited my comment and added something. I was wondering if you'd like to take a gander, please...

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

​@@user-uc9gi2xf8r Yes it's really best to try to understand Japanese as Japanese without passing it through another language (which will never capture the spirit). The sentence above is rather contrived because it is making a pun on 燃える (burn) and 萌える (bud sprout). The second is also the basis of もえ which has a whole range of implications. 攻略 means capture and in this case (I'd need more context to be certain) is likely to be intended in the sense of captivating or winning (over). So its saying "character burning with captiavtion and also bursting into bud". And that really doesn't mean much in English because you have to be bearing in mind the implications of both capturing and moe. But remember that you are like a child in Japanese and like all children it takes time to pick up on the implications of things.

[@user-uc9gi2xf8r]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 I get it now, it is the type of thing you only really understand once you've had enough exposure. Thank you!! Also, yes, they were talking about winning over costumers.

[@tomaskopecky9348]

So if it works the same way as the れる receptive would something like 食べてもらう mean get eaten (initiating it) or am I mistaken here?

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

食べてもらう means get someone to eat something. Same as the other てもらう examples.

[@tomaskopecky9348]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thanks 😊

[@DrAgoti-jk2ff]

Now im slightly confused about れる、られる. For example, does 言われる mean to be said, like something is said, with the thing as the actor. Or does it to be told, like i am told, with me as the actor. Or can it mean both?

[@senjutsu3400]

The subject of a receptive clause is always the person receiving the action, so 言われる has to mean someone (the one doing 言う) is saying something with the subject (the one doing れる) as the target. This isn't a target as in "saying something to him", the content of the action will have to be about the subject. This example is a good one: のんきな人と言われる here it gets clear how this could be used. The content wrapped withと is the content of the 言うand it relates to the subject, the one receiving the action. There are two actors in a receptive sentence, and the one linked to the receptive is the subject while the other actor is not the subject. The other actor doesn't even need to be specified and it doesn't have to be an animate being.

[@DrAgoti-jk2ff]

​​​@@senjutsu3400 wow, thanks for actually still replying to this after such a long time has passed! Really appreciate it! Now obviously in those 2 years since my comment I've gotten a lot better and i am fairly confident i fully understand the whole れる concept. And I believe that there are situations in which you as the person are not necessarily recieving anything when れるis used. For example: 日本は世界で最も安全な国の一つだと言われている。In this case, no one is on the recieving end of anything, instead i always interpreted this more like the english "it is said" which would imply that "it" is the recipient of this action. I guess you could also interpret it as "日本" being the recepient though...

[@senjutsu3400]

​@@DrAgoti-jk2ff I think looking at "日本" as the subject and receiver of the action fits well. The confusion here comes from the lack of a に marked second actor, the one doing the verb towards the subject. That's probably why the "It is said" translation fits so well.

[@namless3654]

cure dolly 先生!　質問があるんですけど。貰って貰う。この文法は何をやっていますか。例文:　服を人に貰って貰う。この文の意味で　"im receiving the thing of receiving clothes from people" i just cant figure out whats going on with this. is it a double receptive verb? 有難う先生

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

It means "I receive the favor of people accepting clothes from me" to put something untranslatable into rough English. While we could say that it is literally "receiving clothes from me" that doesn't do justice in English to the second もらう which implies more activity and grace on the part of the doer of the received action (which in this case is receiving/accepting). Are you sure it was 貰って貰う? This is pretty severe kanji overload, which few native Japanese writers above middle-school age would commit (excessive kanji use is a symptom of 中二病). At most it would be 貰ってもらう. Though some LNs do over-kanjify, presumably because it appeals to their 中学生・高校生 audience.

[@namless3654]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 thank you so much! its very clear to me now! actually, it was もらってもらう, but i gave myself a habit of always using kanji, so i can remember them haha. plus i notice people are using less kanji these days and it makes me sad. i love kanji and i fear it disappearing

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@namless3654 No, it isn't disappearing. Japanese people generally dislike text with either too much or too little kanji - of the two, too little kanji is the worst (all-kana text is a pain to read even if it is spaced). It is a good idea to get the idea of how Japanese is really written - it varies of course and one has the option of anything between using all kana and using every kanji possible - both of which look odd. But a lot of fine-tuning goes on in between the extremes. Incidentally the American occupation government had the aim of phasing out kanji in Japan. They really didn't stand a chance (and they only thought they did because they didn't understand enough about Japanese). It is far too deeply embedded in the langauge. As one Japanese person said "would you sign a legal document in all kana?" - and no one would because there would be too much possible ambiguity. Vietnam and Korea both used to have kanji and now don't, but that won't happen in Japan. It is much more integral to the language.

[@namless3654]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 im glad to hear that. i really really dont want kanji to fall to the wayside. yeah, i find all kana most difficult haha.. i see. i think for now, ill keep using all kanji, just to cement them into my mind, but i will take into consideration that eventually, to be more natural, i will have to find the best times they are used and not used. thank you!

[@user-rt3zc3bg1f]

はーは、また百個"Like"　：）

[@Jeho-vb7iw]

pov: ves un video en el que sí le saben al POV:

[@X33Ultras0und]

Does Japanese work like this in all instances or just in the "received" sense. As in, can you say: "I message-understood the email from Mary" or is it only restricted to receiving, for example : "I throw-did-not-recieve the ball from Mary"

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

I don't understand "message-understood". Helper verbs of this type attach to verbs, not nouns.

[@X33Ultras0und]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Maybe I didn't use the best example. What I mean is, is this format restricted only to receiving / not receiving? Or can it include giving (あげる) too. Like, "I throw-gave the ball to Mary"

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

@@X33Ultras0und The format discussed in this video is てもらう. てあげる can also be used.

[@X33Ultras0und]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 I understand now, thank you.

[@smegskull]

So it's, gift giving, gift receiving and welfare 😄

[@TokyoXtreme]

I think one of the main reasons that the spoken dialogue is so difficult to understand is that there is very little differentiation in the important words in the script vs. the non-important, auxiliary words. That is, the sentence prosody of each spoken line is almost a flat line, and combined with the slow, evenly-spaced speed of the speaking voice, makes it hard for even native speakers to follow without using subtitles.

[@mPDC-gh8jy]

先生、1点だけ。「お医者さんにみてもらう」は「お医者さんに診てもらう」と書きます。「見る」は、この文脈では誤字です。 jisho.org/search/%E8%A8%BA%E3%82%8B

[@organicjapanesewithcuredol49]

そうですね。でも「見てもらう」も大丈夫です。jisho.org/search/%E3%81%BF%E3%81%A6%E3%82%82%E3%82%89%E3%81%86　 普通は私は「診てもらう」と書きますけど、初心者のためにはもっとも簡単な漢字を選びました。Jishoで「みてもらう」を検索すればその解説のある見出しは「見てもらう」なのです。それも初心者のためなんだかもしれません。

[@mPDC-gh8jy]

@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 誤用が広く一般化してしまって、後追いで容認化された例です。「聴く」「訊く」もすべて「聞く」と書いてしまうことと同様です。「テレビを観る」も、「テレビを見る」という誤用が広く一般化していますね。これらは確かに誤字なのですが、口頭会話内では同音異義語なので、人々は文脈から正しい意味を汲み取ることが可能です。と言うか、文脈からのみ、正しい意味/動詞を選び得ます。ですからなおさら書くこと、つまり誤字には寛容になったのでしょう。「見る・診る・診る」や「聞く・聴く、訊く」は、音は同じですが本来はそれぞれ異なる意味を持つ動詞です。

[@GarrisonMorton]

8:53 Whaaa? That's obviously "I get the doctor to look at me" Why would they translate it so horribly.

[@Nic0Flores]

You haven't followed this course, have you? It is not about how to translate from Japanese to English, it is about learning Japanese, understanding how Japanese is structured and what are the linguistic strategies that Japanese uses. With these English-friendly translations becomes impossible to understand the logic of this beautiful, well structured and almost no exceptions language.

[@GarrisonMorton]

@@Nic0Flores I know. Yes I have followed it. I was commenting on how badly the TEXTBOOKS translate it.

[@Nic0Flores]

@@GarrisonMorton I see, I'm sorry.

[@user-bg9og1tb2e]