How Damage Reduction and Raw Defense Stats Work | Throne and Liberty

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Fyi, in the Raw Defense test both Grenton and I removed all our armour and accessories which explains the base damage he dealt. In both tests Grenton has no dagger or Greatsword passives.

[@RemOmni]

Something tells me if you stack defence and they stack damage you would end up with the same results so build might matters a lot or a little depending on how much you stack up.

[@solracsseeker]

I have also completed this test to show armor's reduction of damage as it scales. The curve of the line is similar to the curve you get from the other equations Eli has on Maxroll. Armor is an interesting stat that I feel is overshadowed or possibly miss-understood. Thanks for highlighting it to the community!

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@solracsseeker no worries and thank you too!

[@mudcult]

I love this channel for the content you create. This is the kind of info that makes a gaming community stick around for a long time and also become better at playing the game

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@mudcult thank you! This is really kind of you to say. I also agree wholeheartedly.

[@danikmoroz2328]

very nice, thanks! It is pretty much the only i found about TnL defense stats

[@mauzouq]

Thanks so much

[@WhatIfTheories]

Ok so recently in raw defense I noticed something when you hit 2k+ in the stat screen. Now I have 50 str and some gear my Melee defense is 2200 and my Ranged defense is 2000 on the nose. In the stat screen both of these stats are bold grey after hitting 2,000. Is there a cap at 2,000? Is 2,000 a soft cap? How much mitigation would you get stacking past 2,000, 2,500 etc? I think this video is very good but we need to know way more on where the caps are and diminishing returns. Wish you went way further in your test. Maybe a new video?

[@asurakey]

I'd definitely love to see more of this. I wanted to do testing like this but my homies took a break before launch. I knew reduction was flat, but did we get an answer if armor is percentage based? or flat reduction? Say 1k armor always = 30% reduction vs 1k armor always = -500 dmg? These are hypothetical numbers and not exact. Just thought I had to put that there for the trolls. Love to hear back from ya!

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Thank you! It does appear that it's a %. I'm going to complete the test up to 2k when I get more resources and post that vid to show.

[@TheGuitarist562]

Good video the only thing I would want to see as a last test is dr at 0 melee defense vs what u had at 1400 melee defense if there is any influence. I too was going to make a video like this but so much of a hassle haha. Dr is def a let down.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Oh coincidently that test was achieved at 6:18 with the Melee Def 0 test since I removed all my gear and had 0 DR. Only thing equipped was my Tev wand.

[@ElvieNight]

Nice vid. I was asking in chat before for someone to make vids showing stats etc lol

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Thank you!

[@Kharallo]

Nice vid!! I didn't know Defense had diminishing returns as well. It seems DR would be a stat you only stack when you have high Defense and Endurance, since it applies at the end of the formula and the damage reduced would be a greater % of the "left over" damage. I guess it would work great in mob grinding and large scale pvp as a front liner. Do you know if it works against DOTs by any chance (burns & poisons)? I remember using the DR spell with S&S while on top of a glowing rune in the ground that would deal damage to you every 0.5 seconds or so, the DR applied but i'm sure this isn't a DOT but rather consistent damage. It would be nice to know. Thanks for all the detective work btw, love the content 😃

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Thank you and good question! DR does not decrease damage of DoTs which is a part of the reason why Magic can be a real threat for SnS, especially Wand/SnS users when their Blessed Barrier and/or Counter Barrier is down. But Wand/SnS also have heals so they are the hardest to kill even with the threat of Magic aha.

[@gustavoc8144]

Another great video.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@gustavoc8144 thank you!

[@NineSins]

Assuming they use same/similar functions as critical, evasion, etc; and that the defense works proportionally (which to me makes sense, as damage reduction works flat, so why have two flat stats?) it would look like the formula is: reduction = 100% * defense / (defense + 2750). 2750 is closest to the normalized points (assuming damage at 0 defense is 100%). Testing with another skill could prove it (as well as some higher numbers of defense as to reject any caps and confirm it's a continuous function).

[@GrimmkillMMO]

Added to the builder, good stuff.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@GrimmkillMMO thanks my favourite modern day knight o7

[@Omenoffate14]

I’ve been binge watching your vids, good shit! Do you have a new player/guide to healing? Rotation, spell explanation, pve/pvp, all that good stuff

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Coming soon!

[@TimuRleNGFcKraL]

Thank you. I wish you had tried up to 1400 defense; I would have liked to see what happens at higher values.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Working on it

[@rasser80]

do DR take effect befor or after normal def?

[@sniffay3498]

Great Video. Thx a lot. Maybe you also did some testing with Skill Damage Resistance (i mean, everything you do beside normal attacks is a skill right?)? Damage Reduction seems underwhelming.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@sniffay3498 no worries! Also, yes this has been tested with some friends. Check it out here: maxroll.gg/throne-and-liberty/resources/in-depth-stats-guide

[@1991sub]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP would be cool to see a video about it tho, like is it woth stacking skill dmg boost/resistence is there a softcap? and so on

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@1991sub Definitely! I can let you know now that it's worth depending on what you're stacking and what you're playing. SnS can stack Resistances the best without giving stats up because they have a passive + mastery that totals to 200 of any Resistance. Stacking Collision Resistance is beneficial to not get knocked down, back, or tossed in the air, or pulled. Stun resistance is helpful vs GS. But those two are mainly it. Not many people build these Res other than SnS because they don't want to sacrifice other important stats. Aim for around 700 to reach a proper stack.

[@sniffay3498]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP thx a lot

[@trrafaelams]

every 10 Skill Damage reduction is 1% less damage from skills.

[@bookadi8998]

love your test videos

[@SmasherNoob]

Yeah the DR numbers need to be alot higher on equipment before its worth it. Its a complety dead stat for sure. 100 % agree

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@bookadi8998 I don’t think it’s completely useless, but I definitely think SnS users would make the best use of it when stacked to like 120-130.

[@KubanoMaikel]

Thx bro 👌

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@KubanoMaikel no worries!

[@jodasir7296]

There is something wrong in the test, how it's possible with 0 DR 1xxx mele defense, the hit it's higher than 0 mele def.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Proper full test for Defense: Defence - Max Crit Damage 2900 def - 1400 crit 2500 def - 1600 crit 2000 def - 1800 crit 1500 def - 1900 crit 900 def - 2250 crit 545 def- 2600 crit 285 def - 2750 crit

[@rodcon75025]

So damage reduction is only worth it if you already have so much damage mitigation that only a small amount gets through, or you are up against something that hits you 1000s of times...

[@ivandjartovski3578]

I hit about 3 times a second with my build. 150ish dmg. Tbh 50 reduction would mean my dmg is 300 instead of 450, each second. It stacks up.

[@rodcon75025]

@@ivandjartovski3578Ahh so yea that's huge

[@vecseiszilveszter4672]

I want one endurance vs evasion same test

[@royc5056]

why only test to 600 while most people have like 2k ish defense?

[@Hor1zon_91]

Ok, it seems a little bit useless to stack flat DR? Playing Tank with 2er Shock Set and its kinda funny how DR realy works.

[@johnspartan4025]

Thanks, can you do a test on CC chance vs resistance, like stun vs stun resistance? As staff/wand I'd like to build some but on paper it look kind of useless, you can build like 300 with traits or 500~ with proper equip, while a GS user can stack 500-600 easily, so at best you can pair with him. So you need to put lot of effort only to keep his stun chance at that 80% at best. Am i right? Maybe it's just better go with -debuff duration and avoid the other rest.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

sure

[@MarkAmbalong]

Interesting 👀 Now what’s more worth it to stack on traits? Evasion or Endurance?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

It really depends on your build. You ideally should play off any passive or skill that provides Evasion and/or Endurance so you can maximize the stacking of these stats. For example, Longbow ideally should stack Endurances if not running Melee Evasion. Staves should always stack Melee Evasion because they can stack it the highest compared to any build. Dagger users would benefit from maximizing Ranged/Magic Evasion or Melee/Ranged Evasion.

[@skuvlakaz7767]

mah man

[@All0Mighty0Power]

Wish game explained how DR in this game worked. When I first saw it I kind felted it was useless to build and honestly now that I know it just a 1 to 1 reduction I know it is, but because I'm SnS user many people keep telling me to stack it. Like even if I stack it most I can get is like 100 DR which only reduces dmg I take by 100 that nothing when I'm being hit for attacks that do 2k to me, I'd rather have 2k more HP and collision resistance then 40 more DR, especially when my greatsword passives give me more hit chance and dmg with more HP. And there only real use for stacking DR which is when your using that one skill in SnS that does 250% of your DR as reflect dmg back at the attacker but there only 1 attack that skill is even effective against in the game and the passive 50 DR I get from my shield and it's passive are still enough to delete people when they use that skill.

[@theprotagonistlive]

DR is not useless if you have a lot of mitigation, because it applies after your other mitigation. So if you're stacking Endurance as an SNS user and have other mitigation from things like shield blocks, you'll often see X,000 hits being reduced to 100-200, at which point your 50-75 DR is suddenly blocking over a third of their damage from the hit. It is additionally insane against rapidfire hits from something like a dagger/crossbow.

[@All0Mighty0Power]

@theprotagonistlive I switched off SnS myself though. SnS feels like dog shit compared to pure evasion builds due fact that your block rate goes to zero the moment your CCed. Like yes your super tanky until your CCed then your suddenly not. But evasion you can still dodge attacks even when your CCed. Plus not the mult hit attacks that are usually killing you in PVP it the hard hitting near 1 shot attacks that are and DR does nothing against that even if you trigger a block.

[@TimuRleNGFcKraL]

From what I’ve learned, items dropped from guild raid bosses go to the guild vault. Is there something similar for map bosses as well?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Works the same

[@aguyandhisguitars435]

Will you be making any leveling / build guides ?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Maxroll has a levelling guide that is updated regularly as Devs change stuff. maxroll.gg/throne-and-liberty/getting-started/leveling-guide My Longbow guide is here maxroll.gg/throne-and-liberty/build-guides/wand-longbow-pvp-build-guide maxroll.gg/throne-and-liberty/build-guides/wand-staff-leveling-build-guide

[@j0k-randomstuff]

0 - 200 Def = 6.7% reduction 200 - 400 Def = 6.3% reduction 400 - 600 Def = 6% reduction ... If it works like this and you get around .35% less reduction after every 200 Defense step due to DR it will look like this (obv this needs to be tested, I'm just assuming): 0 to 200 defense: 6.70% damage reduction 200 to 400 defense: 6.35% damage reduction 400 to 600 defense: 6.00% damage reduction 600 to 800 defense: 5.65% damage reduction 800 to 1000 defense: 5.30% damage reduction 1000 to 1200 defense: 4.95% damage reduction 1200 to 1400 defense: 4.60% damage reduction 1400 to 1600 defense: 4.25% damage reduction 1600 to 1800 defense: 3.90% damage reduction 1800 to 2000 defense: 3.55% damage reduction 2000 to 2200 defense: 3.20% damage reduction 2200 to 2400 defense: 2.85% damage reduction 2400 to 2600 defense: 2.50% damage reduction 2600 to 2800 defense: 2.15% damage reduction 2800 to 3000 defense: 1.80% damage reduction 3000 to 3200 defense: 1.45% damage reduction

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Interesting. Thank you. I'm going to continue the test as I collect more mats and see how it goes.

[@Kurdent1]

This means 2000 defense would give 54% DR?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@Kurdent1 Nope, there are big diminishing returns as you pass 1,000.

[@kaaristotelancien3005]

@@Kurdent1 the curve is not linear but logarithmic to avoid a player become to much tanky..just logic

[@TheNaughtyPetey]

@@Kurdent1Yes, this is exactly what the analyze before says.

[@imbustre599]

Hi im planing to go for Support in TL. I want to play large scale pvp and pve mostly. What is the best combo Wand/Bow or Wand/Staff. I saw a lot of your videos and tested the KR version for like 1 hour ish. I saw a lot of Wand/Staff players in town. Im unsure what to choose now

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

They're very different playstyles so it depends what you're interested in. Wand/Longbow is just a pure healer with the most healing abilities in game. Wand/Staff has more utility and support abilities like AoE CC to bind large groups of enemies. This build also lets you to build Melee Eva the best allowing you to be really tanky against Greatswords and other melee users.

[@Taoscape]

Wait! How did you go from taking 4475 damage with ~1400 defence to 3896 with 599 def???

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

This is a full proper test of Defense: Defence - Max Crit Damage 2900 def - 1400 crit 2500 def - 1600 crit 2000 def - 1800 crit 1500 def - 1900 crit 900 def - 2250 crit 545 def- 2600 crit 285 def - 2750 crit

[@Klannahar]

So around every 200 def reduce the dmg like 300 points. and its dropping more and more as u get more and more def. I assume around 1k def it should reduce it like 1k only. Is my logic correct? from 200 def to 400 def the reduction dropped already by 20 point, i assume it increase none linear.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@Klannahar I’m not entirely sure. I’d have to complete a more comprehensive test to see how much the DR is as I continue to raise by 200.

[@Klannahar]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP Would be good if games do not hide formulas this much as they all do, or at least give a good description on the stats what are they stands for and how they function. Also the soft and hard cap, etc. Too bad we need either a data miner guy to dig through the game files to find formulas if it is even stored on client side, or need ppls like u who spend time to test over and over and over. Last time i did something like this was over 10 years ago. :D Im more of a marketing expert and not stat expert.

[@mrfish229]

Do you know what's the diminishing return for weaken chance?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

I'm not sure if Chance has Diminishing Returns. Also, just to be clear, Chance only reduces Resistances. It will not increase your Hit or reduce Evasion. It's only useful to reduce someone who might have Resistance. Since not many people run Resistances other than Collision at the moment, it won't be helpful to run Weaken Chance.

[@PatDuke_]

The first test with 1436 Mel defense he was hitting you harder then when you had only 299 Mel defense though ? How is that or did I miss something ?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Hi, yes. I think you missed something. He hit me harder in the first test because I had 0 Melee Defenses. Since I added Defenses he'd hit me for less.

[@TheGuitarist562]

@@EliEli.MMOPVPcheck 1:30 mark you showcase 1436 melee defense and he hits you for 4475 but then at 6:18 when you equip 200 melee defense he hit you for 4300. With the time stamps it was confusing that at 1436 melee defense when you were testing DR he hit you for substantially more. That’s the reference

[@PatDuke_]

@TheGuitarist562 yes that's what I was referring to

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@TheGuitarist562 Ooh I see. Actually that's super odd. I showed my gear in the video so you can see the numbers I listed are accurate. Grenton was also streaming me his side and he changed nothing. He had no passives on and exactly the same setup. I'm continuing the Defense tests anyways up to 1600 after I get more mats so I'll see what's happening at 1,400 with Grenton again with the same gear, etc.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@PatDuke_ @TheGuitarist562 Oh wait I know why. The DR test I still had some of my gear on. I just had DR at 0. So the gear I had on had Endurances that were decreasing Grenton's Crit dmg with Glancing to minimum. When you crit out of stealth it will always crit by design, but if you have higher endurance than enemy's crit, their crit specifically from a stealth crit will have Glancing applied. We noticed that earlier in the test. I can reconfirm that's what it was but it should be. The Defense clips I had 0 gear on other than Tev wand so nothing to reduce Grenton's Crits. Grenton also took all his gear off except Greatsword and Dagger so his dmg was reduced with no armour or accs on.

[@Abookerzzz]

My problem is poison dmg or fire like how tf do you stop taking the tick dmg from it I just die so fast and I can’t counter it like ?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

My HoTs usually outheal the DoTs by a lot so you don't notice them. Debuff Dura helps a lot too when fully stacked so they drop quicker.

[@karaorman]

please tell me which epic 2 set Hill needs for dungeons and the abyss

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Sorry can you rephrase this question please? Are you asking which gear you need for PvE?

[@karaorman]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP yep T2 wand and staff build

[@layonduff]

Would you say stacking Health is better than raw defenses?

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

In PvP, both are necessary for Endurance build. For non-Endurance or hybrid Endurance/Eva, you want high Max Health as much as you can without ruining your Eva breakpoints.

[@IKniveZI]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP What are the break points for Evasion, Endurance, Hit etc? Is there a list of all the break points that you want to meet? Thanks

[@Morningstar-.-]

but if crossbow users attacks u they have lower damage with multiple damages so damage reduction can ruin their life.

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

It's good for SnS since they can stack it really high with their skills for sure. For others, it's less worth since you're sacrificing a lot of important stats to not even surpass 100 DR usually. Better to build higher Max Health and proper endurances as a non-SnS healer. You can do a lot more.

[@Morningstar-.-]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP yeah i am sns/gs

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

Nice nice

[@rabbit1g237]

So Damage Reduction is literally piece of crap huh. instead we should stack hp

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

It's okie for SnS, but yea pretty much.

[@えーくっと]

Dead game

[@richardpugliese9142]

Grandeeee

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

ty

[@richardpugliese9142]

Sono un boomer

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

ty

[@richardpugliese9142]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP americano non capisco spaghetti

[@richardpugliese9142]

@@EliEli.MMOPVP eli puoi fare un breve video dove spieghi come massimizzare il danno col single target invece? Così semmai non si fa wipare tutto il party ai boss

[@EliEli.MMOPVP]

@@richardpugliese9142 Si