The Downside of Pokemon's Physical / Special Split.

[@jimothycool]

Just to clarify: I'm not saying the Phys/Special Split shouldn't have happened. It's a more intuitive system overall. Just saying that dismissing Gen 3 OU for having no Phys/Special split is a bit short-sighted. The unique mechanics of old Gens make them stand out which is a good thing. Try to appreciate the unique options available, instead of dismissing them for not having the same options as later Gens.

[@jimothycool]

Lack of Phys/Special split isn't my favourite thing about Gen 3 or anything, it's a pretty small factor in what I like about it. I just think it shouldn't be viewed as a negative The best things about it imo are: - Lower power level (high BP moves like Draco Meteor and Close Combat don't exist) - No Stealth Rock - No OP Defensive Mechanics (Regenerator, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce) - No dumb fishing moves like Scald - General lack of brainless free progress moves like Knock Off. Some mons get it but its obviously weaker Pre Gen 6 and is quite limited - The variety in Sets on the top Pokemon and the great sense of Structure in team archetypes

[@Squirtle_Squad_Supremacy]

Thank you. All these people in the comments section hating smh

[@Miguelitojones1]

iron fellow has used Attack Order, thus the hate.

[@randomgamer9141]

@@jimothycool 5:15 Nowadays teams are so BO oriented that the only thing you can do run is stab options. Stall is nonexistent because many Pokémon lost knock off and toxic while every one of them lost recovery pp and scald. HO is risky to play because two wrong moves and you loose a mon or two which results in loosing the whole game. BO are bulky enough to take 2-5 hits all while still being able to do good damage with body press Tusk or Garg’s salt cure being prime examples. Not many mons can truly break through walls for the exception of specs users like Valiant and Pult who guess what, tera offensively and spam their very strong stabs and it shows in the usage. I love this meta and have reached 1600 points a few times during gen 9(I’m a casual) but it really goes to show how much powercreep we have had and how much more tera benefit these defensive Pokémon more. A Pokémon who embodies how much more gen 9 favors BO compared to previous generations is Volcarona. Bully Rona has always existed but has never been used to the extreme it has in gen 9. There are a lot of factors playing here but I won’t list them since I’ve gone on long enough. Anyways what are your opinions on this, do you agree or disagree, if I’m right or wrong, how so and why, etc.

[@blumwashere]

idk i feel like special attackers have amazing type coverage, most get energy ball or shadow ball or ice beam or thunderbolt and some even have all 4 (fucking gardevoir)

[@TheRealHelvetica]

In the arceus game they changed freeze into something that was basically burn but lowers special attack. I wish that became the standard

[@Kali_Krause]

Drowzy also functions as both sleep and confusion

[@dougstrother5184]

I think this is okay IF they make it more likely to happen. But the stat changes being temporary is unacceptable

[@bluegum6438]

It's in the Pokemon Unbound hack and it appears to have been doubled in frequency (feels like about 20%) compared to Freeze. I like it a lot more, in particular I used an A-Ninetales AVeil team a lot in the Battle Tower and having a 20% burn chance on STAB Blizzard in doubles is immensely strong

[@ROFLOLGAMER]

Kek a bunch of people didn't watch until the end.

[@somechupacabrawithinternet8866]

i hate frostbite witha burning passion

[@Jake19774TW]

Iron Fellow has 283% usage in the OU ladder but still remains in UUBL. One day I hope the community realizes how strong they are and places them properly

[@WaverPF]

OLD SKIN (Ancient paradox Shedinja)

[@Magmatic07]

Bl with primal Dialga's stats... Hinting at Dialga's drop next gen?

[@ostrich6175]

okay genuine question here: I haven't played a Pokemon game past sun and moon. What is iron fellow?

[@ostrich6175]

Never mind just watched the video LMAO

[@godisjihyo3615]

@@ostrich6175 it was added in gen 9

[@conorfaught4033]

I think the greater move set variety of earlier gens also stems from the lack of Pokémon. As more Pokémon are introduced, there is less space to be the best as a specific niche. Take snorlax. In gen 2, it could do practically anything and was the best at so many different roles that the question wasn’t “should I use snorlax?” It’s “how do I use my obligatory snorlax.” In Every subsequent gen it has a more specific niche until it became outclassed at everything. Older gens have more variety in movesets, but newer gens have more variety of Pokémon.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

Said newer pokemon also tend to be “laser like” where they just so one thing very, very well.

[@reddragonair3147]

And not even just the Pokemon, but some really niche moves also see play in older generations, while nobody thinks about them now. Like Beat Up on Charizard in Advanced, and even Present on Blissey in GSC.

[@conorfaught4033]

@@reddragonair3147 I dunno, rare moves still show up. Right now toxapex can run infestation. Dragopult runs hex sometimes. Tentacruel ran acid spray in gen 6

[@reddragonair3147]

@@conorfaught4033 I guess so. For Hex specifically, I think it's become a lot more common this Generation because of all the really popular Ghosts. I wouldn't consider it a staple in any generation, but it's not really a gimmick move either because you can basically count on status showing up. Things have run it since Jellicent in BW.

[@reddragonair3147]

@@conorfaught4033 I kind of want to try a Gen III style team on the current ladder with modernized EV spreads to see how far I can get. I won't end up committing to it, but just imagine landing a successful Focus Punch on something with a Breloom and dropping it. Haha.

[@XtheGAMEmaster]

I have been vouching for the careful balance of Asymmetry in Pokémon because of how interesting it makes certain Pokémon, and this video perfectly exemplifies that. An example from newer games that made me really sad was Basculegion, who on paper was such an interesting attacker- It’s a Water/Ghost type with Adaptability, boosting it’s already strong STABs, but also has two forms. The male had a much higher Attack stat, while the female had a stronger special attack stat (but not quite as high compared the the attack stat of the male!) When this Pokémon was originally revealed in Legends Arceus, Wave Crash was one of it’s signature moves, and was really interesting- It was a Physical, 75 base power move with recoil, but increased the user’s priority. This on paper sounds like a Water-type Sucker Punch, which is awesome! So you’d want to use it on the male version, but then you notice that in Legends Arceus that the only Ghost moves Basculegion gets us Astonish and Shadow Ball. This, combined with the lower power of Basculegion’s physical attacking options, gives us an interesting option: Using the Female form to become a better special attacker, with options like Hydro Pump and Shadow Ball, since it’s the better user of it’s Ghost Stab, or using the male for the superior attacking Stat and moves like Wave Crash. Or, even more interestingly, using Adaptability in order to use a Mixed Basculegion, such as using Shadow Ball on the Male since Adaptability would make it an interesting option, or running Adaptability Wave Crash on Female for the extra priority. However, with SV’s changes to Basculegion’s movepool and changes to Wave Crash, they gave Baculegion a 120 bp Physical Water Stab that isn’t priority boosted like Sucker Punch, as WELL as Last Respects, arguably the most broken move in the game and a Physical Ghost stab. It almost entirely removes the justification of running Female Basculegion for it’s special attacking stats, since the Male simply outdoes it thanks to a higher Attacking stat and better STAB moves. It’s an upgrade that will make Male Basculegion better, but makes the overall pair of Male and Female Basculegion less interesting of a choice and an unfortunate downgrade to the thought that was put into their differences.

[@jagjitpradhan2038]

Just like real life

[@TheD1rtyDan]

One look at the ladder and usage rates shows you couldn't have been more wrong lol

[@TheD1rtyDan]

One look at the ladder and usage rates shows you couldn't have been more wrong lol

[@XtheGAMEmaster]

@@TheD1rtyDan With Last Respects banned, the Female one is definitely the better of the two! But if the Male received Poltergeist, that would be a different story!

[@Allister_o]

Im glad we got the split, my fav azu finally got a time to shine😍😍

[@jimothycool]

I am also an Azu fan.

[@Dynamic256-ORIGINAL]

@@jimothycool me too!

[@panchampangoro4999]

Me fourth

[@just_a_rebel8261]

Imagine it never happened and all fairy moves were special..

[@Dynamic256-ORIGINAL]

@@just_a_rebel8261 no

[@victort7381]

I actually went thru all the other videos I hadnt watched just to see what in the end happened to Iron Mugulis. The new Iron Fellow now looks terrifying

[@jimothycool]

Iron Mugulis is still out there.

[@victort7381]

@@jimothycool We need Great Tusk revived ASAP.

[@CoralReaper707]

​@@jimothycool How cool would Hitmonchan be without a physical/special split if it had 110 base special attack rather than special defense?

[@algar6616]

@@CoralReaper707 this ain’t the place for that

[@Zenith8896]

@@jimothycool Iron Mugulis is definitely the Pokemon equivalent to The Boogeyman. 👻

[@megamindsfacerazor1987]

"the most significant change" crazy talk when the literal next gen they got rid of pokeball seals and poffins

[@sertayeee4414]

It was interesting to hear about the physical/special split from this perspective, I had always assumed it was just a 100% positive change and therefore I avoided playing the first 3 generations because pokemon sounded worse without the split. Now i'm really interested to try the gen 3 games, it sounds really different but not worse, just different.

[@Imitationist]

Just remember that hidden power is nonexistent as a reliable coverage move(unlike what you see in simulator battles) and certain moves have to be chain bred

[@beaky8138]

Gen 3 OU is often argued to be the best competitive OU for 6v6 singles. Casually, FireRed and LeafGreen are some of the most intuitive games to pick up and just feel very good to play. Emerald may have one of the most immersive regions, though there are valid criticisms for its story (much worse in Ruby/Sapphire) and its type balance. If you ever want to try a monotype experience though, an Emerald water monotype is extremely intuitive and varied.

[@thohillesland]

Yes, while i definitly feel like the physical special split was a positive for the series (as it just makes more sense), there was also a lot of fun movesets that you could run in RSE which makes the pokemon feel very distinct, especially compared to its remakes. For example there are a lot of physical attackers that loved to run Shadow Ball as coverage like Ninjask, Solrock, Vigoroth, Medicham, Volbeat, Zangoose, Absol and Kecleon. Both Dusklops and Banette are way better because of physical shadow ball. Girafarig gets to run a very fun Calm mind set with Psychic, Thunderbolt and Crunch which are all special in gen 3. Sceptile actually gets to use its signature Leaf Blade as its best grass move. Muk in ORAS doesn't get any physical poison moves until either a hard to get late game TM or level 40 making it somewhat hard to use, in gen 3 on the other hand it is very good. Volbeat actually has a very fun niche in gen 3. it is the only good bug type attacker for almost the entire game. Since it gets Signal Beam as a signature move at level 25, in a game that has quite a lot of both Dark and Psychic types this is actually quite a nice niche to have. Even if its stats are quite weak, In the early game when you are mostly fighting unevolved or middle stage pokemon a stab 75 power move from base 73 attack is actually quite strong. And even if it does fall off a bit towards the end, it can still be quite helpfull against both the late game Psychic gym and the Dark elite four.

[@antusFireNova]

You could say it's a 95% positive change

[@Raymanlegacy]

Iron fellow is very dangerous

[@ouiVEVO]

I personally fear Ancient Jar, the sinistea ancient form

[@fropi5523]

I dread Allium Banneret, the past form of SirFetch’d

[@sharkronical]

Jumpy Spring, the ancient version of Spoink is better

[@Raymanlegacy]

these suggestions are very good lol XD made me laugh

[@epicrgg]

I personally prefer iron steel, the future form of mega aggron

[@N12015]

7:29 Going to stop you there, Salamence was still ridiculously versatile after the split; that's why it got banned in gen 4, because you couldn't reliably counter it, with roughly the same amount of options and all of them enhanced: A choice banded now with Outrage, a mix attacker with Draco meteor or bulky dragon dance now with Roost. Gengar is a genuine case of versatility lost and so is for Alakazam, but Salamence got roughly equal.

[@xendra333]

It was like fighting Iron Valiant now, except this mon had the stats to run a bulkier set, thus being more versatile at the time.

[@Zantetsuken94]

I'm going to stop you there - no reliable salamence counter in gen 4? Two words, ice shard

[@Glizzyman]

​@@Zantetsuken94correct me if I'm wrong but like 3 relevant pokemon learned ice shard in gen 4 and Ice shard is easy to switch into from anything that isn't 4x weak to it, so it's not like it's a good counter

[@matteoc83]

​@@Zantetsuken94did you have ever played gen 4 ou? I think not, because every person that has played the tier knows that ice shard is not enoght. Garchomp and salamence are both 4x weak to ice and they're both banned.

[@matteoc83]

​@@Glizzyman plus, people just assume that you can easily switch your weavile or manoswine into salamence, when in reality you definetly can't. Stealth rock in gen 4 is at his pick, and this dont help those ice type. And fun fact, you need band to actually have a shot to kill the more bulky variants with the anti-ice berry (I dont remember the name).

[@Setsunascarletstorm24]

Iron Fellow? As if Iron Mugulis hasn’t done enough damage ;-;

[@jimothycool]

We live in dangerous times.

[@theimprovedbore550]

not to mention Spidops, Garganacl, and Gholdengo

[@im_platinum4326]

​@@jimothycool we need pawnot to revive great tusk or we need to find a new replacement somehow

[@uzumakimadeit]

The sinister 6 of pokemon is becoming a reality Mugulis, gholdengo, spidops, garganacl, iron fellow and maybe a 6th member soon?

[@sheeplol2161]

sinisteas revenge

[@D-S-G.]

cant wait for the pure steel magneton, iron balls

[@Kali_Krause]

I'd put either Chi-Yu or Chien-Pao in the sinister 6

[@robloxplays4322]

Ferrothorn

[@WaverPF]

OLD SKIN, PARADOX ANCIENT SHEDINJA!!! GHOST FIGHTING WITH MORE THAN 500 HP

[@waffloesh7862]

Leaf Blade Sceptile definitely isn’t a competitive staple of any sort but whenever I think of the phys/spec split and its downsides it’s always the first one I think of. Your discussion of how the introduction of the split made the game a bit more “linear” in some regards was rlly insightful!! Love whenever you talk abt Gen 3

[@tecul1]

banette too

[@Surgemaster2012]

As someone who use to play competitive I'm glad you made this. People get so into elitist mindsets nowadays. The physical special split was a near universal improvement, but I agree that it came at a cost. Likewise Gen 3 is also my favorite meta, Im not a fan of how power crept the series became over time. Pokemon don't always need STAB to succeed.

[@Imitationist]

A pokemon just needs to do its job well and thats all it matters, which is dependant on what moves gamefreak wanna gives it. Klefki is proof of that

[@beaky8138]

I think something that is often underemphasized in this conversation is the huge power creep of this one change is isolation. There were new Pokémon, moves and abilities too, but this one change is a lot of the reason why DPP and HGSS metagames are so much higher power than ADV.

[@et34t34fdf]

Physical special split was good, but i do think they could have handled hidden power better, physical attackers got the short end of the stick. Yes, "hidden power" would imply this is indeed a special move, but couldn't they just have given a physical version of it, following the same formula? Many physical attackers would have died for a coverage move, especially certain technician users.

[@felipelombarde3346]

​@@et34t34fdf what could we call a physical Hidden Power? "Will Power"?

[@naganut9718]

@@et34t34fdf physical attacker always gets the end of the stick. Most contact moves are physical so it got affected by rocky helmet Burn is a thing Intimidate Other than rocky helmet, also status on contact abilities (like static), Iron barbs and rough skin There's a lot more physical wall than special ones SP atk is pretty much: Chansey/Blissey Frostbite in PLA Assault Vest And rock types during sand storm (which is pretty much limited to tyranitar)

[@grauenritter9220]

DPP's physical special split was arguably less influential than the introduction of a whole bunch of spammable 120pwr moves

[@gamerdude491]

I think this might be the first video on KZbin of the NEGATIVE aspects of the split. I've always fixated on all the positive aspects as Gyarados is my favorite Pokemon and benefits greatly from the split. However, I was aware of the loss of the elemental punches from Gengar and Alakazam as a negative to their coverage. Nice seeing more aspects fleshed out. 11/10 as Iron Fellow has returned.

[@realsanmer]

While it's true that perhaps the variety in moveset might have been diminished by the split, it's still a net positive imo, becuase without it, too many mons would not be as useful: imagine if Fairy was a special-only type, you can kiss all physical attackers goodbye

[@cesarcastillo7129]

If that means no zacian we good

[@thejuic3b0i64]

@@cesarcastillo7129 steel is physical. No one is ever safe from Zacian

[@N12015]

@@cesarcastillo7129 Nah, we still would have steel physical.

[@luizbezerra4373]

Also, what about Hitmonchan having elemental punches with that awful SAtk?

[@lorebanjo8516]

​@@cesarcastillo7129zacian barely uses fairy moves anyway

[@nicoataiza7850]

We must not let iron fellow into OU or the world ends 😔

[@nickcostley9282]

super cool video. I love the exploration of what was lost in the transition to physical/special split which is not something I had considered before

[@Zappy-McCraw]

I only got into comp in Gen 5, so I've been playing catch-up on stuff like this with creators such as BKC. It's fascinating to see these intricacies & how Pokemon has changed as a game. You mentioned the split simplifying the game, and I think we're starting to see more attempts at simplification; moveset resets upon transfer to SV (esp. with scald/knock), newer pokemon having more deliberately limited movesets since SWSH (e.g Eleki, Spectrier) etc. For all the variety and intricacies in new Pokemon and moves we get, it makes me wonder how much we've given up in exchange.

[@devilman4723]

I really hope transfer moves stay gone. It's not an issue on Showdown but on cart it sucks to be gated out of a move unless you have an older game or were there for a limited time event

[@cise3895]

I wouldn’t say those examples are necessarily attempts at simplification. Taking away moves that you can mindlessly slap onto pokemon means that you need to try a bit harder to get your pokemon to work-much like choosing to not give Dragapult shadow claw. I’d say something like Chi Yu is a more obvious example; nothing screams simple more than blowing through resists & Blissey with nothing but big fucking numbers.

[@queenofthesalt5199]

The thing I like about the Phys/Spec split was something I don’t think you mentioned deeply enough- design options. Pre-gen 4, an offensive, physical Psychic type would simply not be as viable as a special one on paper, because Psychic was a special type, and Psychic would gain additional damage off of their stab boosts they could more effectively use. It just wasn’t a good design option. Now, though, any type can function under any category, and that means that originally unviable type/stat distributions could become useful. It allowed for GF to design things like truly Physical Water types like Crawdaunt, and truly Special Normal types like Porygon-Z. I think the design implementation of that has made for more interesting Pokémon.

[@grunkleg.2934]

I will say, the physical/special split was very much a net positive. Far more Pokemon became more interesting to use than ones that became less interesting, it made intuitive sense, and it allowed for the design of viable Pokemon in the future to become much more creative. Imagine something like Weavile, Gholdengo, or Sandy Shocks without the split. All of them take massive hits in usefulness. And the example with Gengar, that guy is still capable of running a lot of different sets. Scarf, Specs, Nasty Plot, Substitute, Will-O-Wisp + Hex, etc. There's still a lot of room to mold Gengar into whatever your team needs, even if there's a lot of crossover with moves it commonly runs

[@gavins5329]

Did you even watch the video?? The point is that even though the phys/spec is generally positive, there were still clear flaws and detriments to competitive singles, contrary to popular belief. Also all of your example Pokémon were introduced after the split already occurred. What’s to stop GameFreak from just balancing these Pokémon around the lack of such split? Why should Pokémon like gengar lose flexibility so other Pokémon gain “intuitive” sets? It’s all arbitrary, like Jimothy says and the point of the video was to make us critically reevaluate just how good we claim the physical/special split to really be.

[@rasputozen]

I don't get how the split is more intuitive. That physical moves are Attack and elemental/non-physical moves are Special is as simple and intuitive as it gets.

[@DCBiscuit]

@@rasputozen Water is a very concussive force, why would it not have overlap between physical and special? And at that, why would ghosts, which are THE force that are outside of the physical plane, be physical? And then have most of the ghost types be specially oriented?!

[@furiouscorgi6614]

​@@rasputozenShadow Claw is Physical. Dragon Claw is Special. What gives away the difference to someone not experienced in competitive?

[@rasputozen]

I do see yours and @DCBiscuit 's points. And after thinking more about it I've come around to the split. Maybe the only thing that's lost is having pokemon with moves that don't always match with their special/attack, like gen 3 gengar. While on the face of it, it could seem like a design flaw, I think it's a more subtle and mature way to give variation and character to pokemon, at least in competitive. @@furiouscorgi6614

[@FunkyDexter]

According to your video, gengar literally only lost ice punch while getting stab shadowball and a strong move in focus miss, which is still arguably better than focus punch. Fire punch was less useful since you already had perfect coverage in ice/electric combo, which is the reason it is not featured in smogon's analysis. And in gen 6 steel got nerfed, so ghost stab was better than ever making it the new unresisted combination, and poison was suddenly useful thanks to the new fairy type. I'd argue that the split was definitely favorable for gengar.

[@tecul1]

the point jim is making is that the change made it less interesting and less varied, which may lead into being less fun to play

[@FunkyDexter]

@@tecul1 but it really depends on your definition of fun. Do you have fun winning? Now your bro is more viable than ever. Do you have fun with trying different combination of moves? You still have that option. If you wanted both to win and have tons of options, chances are your bro is getting banned, like happened to fluttermane. Nothing is stopping you from playing bulky Gengar with hypnosis, disable and destiny bond.

[@tecul1]

ye, this is true

[@LinkNinjaMaster]

I think the real issue we can see here is that Game Freak has never put too much though into balancing the games for any metagame. Not even their actual competitive doubles. So they rarely think about giving interesting tools to their creatures, but rather mostly think about giving them moves that fit their design and lore, even if the combat utility is not ideal, to say the least. There are ton of Pokémon that just have awful movesets, and this has always been the case. And with each passing generation and gradual increase of Pokémon to choose from, it is now impossible to properly balance. I feel like Gen 3 was just lucky and got the perfect mix of variety and limitations to breed a very unique metagame compared to most other generations, but while the phys/spec pre-split definitely helped it greatly, I doubt we would have seen similar results in future generations if the split got delayed for some reason. (Also I think the lack of the split in a casual playthrough is 99% a negative and the game as a casual experience would have been miles better if the split was implemented since Gen 3)

[@Gurpwnder]

Considering that Game Freak went out of their way to remove Levitate from Gengar in later generations in exchange for Cursed Body, something tells me that they were completely fine with it losing the elemental punches going from gen 3 -> gen 4.

[@m.f.3347]

i would argue that for many of the Pokemon that suffered from the split, just as many became viable. While a single Pokemon like Gengar may have had more variety in its movesets, others like Sneasel were totally unviable pre-split (and Weavile would have been too if it released pre-split). Gengar was good because it was fast, had a Normal immunity, and had high enough SpAtk to not care about having a STAB move. Other Pokemon weren't so lucky. I believe the split gives the devs more flexibility in designing Pokemon for competitive use. They could just as easily not have given Gengar Shadow Ball and have it forced to use other moves for coverage. Would it be worse? Definitely, but the split allows them to make balancing decisions in this manner that they couldn't pre-split. I'm happy to have more individual Pokemon be viable even if it means those individuals have less variety in their sets. That's just my personal belief though.

[@lazyscholar7932]

Nevermind pokemon like Sneasel/Weaville that got to use its stab moves now that their typing doesn't contradict their stat distribution. Also, losing levitate was worse for Gengar than losing ice punch.

[@---ce7gq]

As if contradictions didn't play a formative role. You can't complain about Power creep, 90% of it stems from the neurosis surrounding the "need" of strong STABs.

[@MiguelCardenas-op4xm]

In Gen 3, dragon claw (which is considered "special", meaning it uses your Special Attack to calculate your resulting damage. BUT dragon claw comes in contact as well...meaning it touches your opponent physically. Therefore opponents with flame body ability still have the 30% chance to cause you burn status when you use dragon claw even if it's special!

[@rex_melynas]

That can still happen now, there are contact special moves, and non contact physical moves. Usually contact and physical are tied together, but not always.

[@Carinail]

Oh and also Shadow Ball, because it's CLEARLY a special attack, drops special defense. But in gen 3 ghost is physical so you get a physical attack that drops special defense, because why not?

[@Munby1]

Iron Fellow: Direct Marketing - I invented that. You will see it.

[@undeadmonkey683]

prior to the split ghost was an attack based type when ghost types are primarily special attackers, and dark was a special type with solely attack based Pokémon. That’s how little thought goes into the system when considering the intentions of the developers.

[@danfurtado9158]

As much as I agree with some of his points I think you are right. I think he believes their was a lot more thought put into these interactions as they really were. I think the type choices were completely arbitrary as good as it was for some, some mons were just arbitrarily weaker. Then after the split some mons got shafted and made shittier. If gamefreak had some well thought out design choices they probably would have done some light rebalancing

[@poppyfrancis7338]

I can't deny that I miss some Pokémon having more coverage in their sets, but I think that the logistical flaws that the pre physical/special split moves had meant it really was only a matter of time before they finally changed how moves worked. Although I'd love to see how they'd have designed Pokémon from the very beginning with the desire to keep the types of moves correlating with the type of attack, possibly using more/different damage multipliers since not all Pokémon get useful moves of their STAB types. Imagining a world where instead/om top of STAB you have Physical/Special Attack Bonus, where using a move that matched your higher offensive base stat got a bonus of 1.2×

[@sand-attack]

I think what they'd need to do is have physical and special types makes more sense intuitively (Dragon and Dark = Physical, Ghost = Special) and revamp some move pools and stat distributions. I really wish that's the direction they went with Gen 4, instead of slapping one or two STABs that match the higher attack stack on every mon.

[@vala32]

There are two points that I think are missing from this discussion: (1) Universal access to STAB drastically increased the power level of the game. A mon like Gengar's strongest move was 95 Thunderbolt, now 120 Shadow Ball. Salamence 100 Earthquake, now 180 Outrage. Gen 4's physical/special split was the single largest instance of power creep in the game's history, made even worse by the introduction of several high base power moves like Close Combat and Brave Bird. (2) A lot of mons had a powerful "coverage" stat, and were balanced around it. It's wrong to look at Gen 3 Crawdaunt as a physical attacker with no STAB. It's a special attacker with a high physical attack to leverage coverage options like Sludge Bomb or Aerial Ace. A lot of mons were designed with this logic, and then broke when the phys/spec split came. Crawdaunt turned from a special attacker with mixed coverage options, to a Knock Off bot with no diversity of sets at all. This has broadly been the case for most gen 1-3 mons that transitioned to gen 4 sadly. I agree that the split was necessary, but it was also handled very carelessly, to the extent where I think the games might now be worse overall for it. I do believe that Gen 4 is the gen that did the most damage to the games' balance, and we're still living with the repercussions of it. If you play old gens, it doesn't feel like you're constantly on the verge of getting swept. Things don't die as quickly.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

I honestly think that the older gens were a lot slower paced and much more built towards stall, and that getting rid of that mentality for a more offensive focused gameplay was a good call. Let's look at Crawdaunt. A slow, frail pokemon with improperly balanced offensive stats and only ever does something in the lowest of tiers. Both Sludge Bomb and Aerial Ace, while covering some of its weaknesses, are never used because they are not doing enough for the competitive setting it's in, it usually relied on Brick Break, Hidden Power Ghost and Double Edge/Return. Sharpedo was strictly better than it in all aspects, hitting just as hard on the physical side and special side while being much faster at the cost of just being frailer, which is honestly a good trade off for a glass canon in the first place.

[@---ce7gq]

​@@M4x_P0w3r The first afirmation is valid to gen 2, but not for gen 1 or 3. The thing is, in a metagame completely structured around occupying niches, this offensive turn was precisely the ringing of the bells announcing the coming of Powercreep.

[@---ce7gq]

​​@@M4x_P0w3r What I mean: if before the "ecological" direction that determined whether a pokemon would be predominant or not, referred primarily to its ability to give multiple responses and to influence the scenario from there (coverage, flexible sets), now it's focused on the raw ability to inflict damage in the most obvious way possible (STAB, less flexible sets) There are exceptions on both occasions, of course, but in general, these are the cornerstones of each metagame.

[@deinoccocuschoroy7312]

The problem isn't the Phys/Special split, the problem onwards is the POWER of the moves, before gen 4 an atacak over 100 power had most of the times a costly condition to function

[@thehatcaseonyoutube]

So I sort of agree, with a caveat. The lessening of options is definitely an occurrence, but isn't the fault of the split, but rather due to game freaks poor choices when it comes to updating movesets and making sure their choices aren't limiting options(such as removing gengars coverage, or stealth rock being atrocious for balance). So I do think that the phys spec split is definitely more nuanced than many say, that nuance is definitely not the changes fault, but rather the fault of GF implementing it poorly.

[@Imitationist]

Ever wonder why physical electrics are seen as a joke? Blame gamefreak for their limiting movesets

[@thehatcaseonyoutube]

@@Imitationist for real. Electivires moveset is a perfect example of just the lack of consideration some pokemon get

[@WeaterdeaTH]

One of your best videos in a while, Jimothy. I look forward to them every day . Here's hoping Iron Jugulus is brought to justice

[@russellransom5421]

I LOVED the split, but I think the biggest problem with it that you touched on was the lack of additional corresponding moves. The Electric type imo suffers from this the worst on the physical side while Rock suffers just as much on the special side

[@EnderPryde]

Counterpoint 1: having entire metagames warped around individual, extremely flexible mon's is almost precisely the issue people have have with Lando-T or Mew from Gen 1/2/3/4. Counterpoint 2: they clearly *did* care about competitive pokemon in some capacity - after all, 2008 VGS was the first World Championship for the core games... and it was DPPt. Which was right after the Phys/Special split. (That's admittedly Doubles, but changing Doubles mechanics without changing Singles mechanics would be really weird)

[@Pablo360able]

Re: Counterpoint 2... that's kind of the point. Doubles (more specifically VGC) is the competitive format that GameFreak cares about, at the expense of singles. That's where the disconnect comes from. (Illustratively, I was thrown when he mentioned Chien-Pao as an example of a 'mon that only uses STAB options in the implied context of singles, because in VGC it's rare to see one without Sacred Sword - but then again, Fighting-type coverage is so cliche that it barely counts as coverage and it still goes to the point that the effective movepool ends up being compact)

[@troykv96]

The homogenization of Pokémon, that is the funny trade off of the physical/special split, it makes you a bit nostalgic of the times when using Hidden Power as physical move was a thing; at least Hitmonchan can finally use the moves that were apparently designed to be used by him. And well, things like this are why I appreciate Scald becoming a signature move. Scald is such a overloaded move, to the point that any Pokémon that doesn't have it is strictly worse as a water type. Scald gives you just enough damage to be threating (80) and secondary effect that is extremely punishing thanks to it's high chance. Scald technically is filling the same philosophy as Lava Plume or Discharge with it's chance, but Scald isn't only strictly better because, unlike Lava Plume or Discharge, it doesn't have safe switch-ins, it's also a move that you can throw completely unpunished 99% of the time; and also, that this move exists in like a million Pokémon compared with Lava Plume and Discharge.

[@guilhermegigeck5946]

This feels like nitpicking that his favorite Gengar wasnt his super-effective wild card, and pursuit now not being an exceptional case. After the split I'd say that more moves can be exceptional cases like pursuit.

[@DarthFhenix55]

Spamming physical Hyper Beam in the first 3 gens is one of my favorite things to do.

[@NightKev]

So basically, to finish the title: "The downside of Pokemon's Physical/Special Split [is Game Freak's incompetence]".

[@RagingBrachy]

But atleast gengar can use ghost type moves now¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[@jimothycool]

But at what cost..

[@blacklusternolegs]

Clearly not enough of a cost considering they then decided to take away levitate for cursed body of all things.

[@IgnitedQuils]

@@jimothycool Not much since Ghost + Fighting is unresisted except for H-Zoroark who isn’t in UU.

[@kvltofsobek90]

Made no sense for ghost to be physical in the first place. Its ethereal, related to immaterial and spiritual things. Should have been special from the beginning

[@hv433]

​@@kvltofsobek90 you say that as if the first damaging Ghost type move that wasn't fixed damage was Shadow Ball. But Lick, the first non-fixed damage move, sure does sound Physical to me! It just doesn't make sense why Dark was ever special... Bite and Crunch sound Physical too.

[@adamkahmann2937]

Everything you said in this video is how I felt for a very long time. Thank you for wording it so well!

[@wrongwarp4444]

I believe that the phys/spec split was necessary to make the metagame more inclusive, because the lack of strong stab moves for a lot of pokémon made the gameplay less dynamic and more focused on stall, with most of the damage being dealt through stuff like toxic, hazards and, in gen 3, sandstorm, which in turn, made offensive pokémon without good stab, like sneasel or togetic, a lot worse.

[@Imitationist]

"Do nothing" stall is frankly very boring to play against and watch, since there is no wincon to look out for and half the time it's just switching

[@ghostofgralton6859]

The pre-split mechanics are something I've come to appreciate as I've played GSC OU. Would love to see a 'best-of-both-worlds' approach in future games. E.g. why not make the punches work off of the higher attacking stat of the user?

[@givecamichips]

Meanwhile Flareon didn't have any coverage _or_ STAB... And still doesn't really have any physical coverage or STAB.

[@Kali_Krause]

Flareon had to wait til gen 4 to get Fire Fang and Last Resort. Flare Blitz should have been given to it , but no. Pokemon like Infernape and even Rapidash get Flare Blitz so why couldn't Flareon?

[@Staklihen]

@@Kali_Krause Flareon has Flare Blitz since Gen VI.

[@BlueGamingRage]

@@Staklihen Just in time to be power crept to the point where it doesn't even matter

[@l.n.3372]

My first game was Crystal on the Gameboy color. I loved using Alakazam and Gengar with ice punch. But when the elemental punches became physical, I didn't really complain, despite using them a lot beforehand. They're punches, after all, for Pokemon like Hitmonchan. Who is a physical fighting type. Those punches being special was probably never intended and was simply an accidental aspect of lacking a physical/special split. I think the issue here is NOT the physical/special split. The issue here is: why can't Alakazam and Gengar have ice beam or blizzard since they lost ice punch? I think your issue is the lack of replacement moves, so to speak. If they could use ice beam in gen 4 onwards, then you wouldn't complain about losing ice punch. The lack of replacement moves is why you miss ice punch. But something else that you seem to have forgotten is that in gen 2, when shadow ball was created, there were only 2 ghost families: the Gengar line and then Misdreavus. Gen 3 introduced some new ghosts. But as a whole, they might not have been common enough to warrant using stab ghost moves. Teams could run dark moves if needed to handle ghost and psychic enemy Pokemon. Lacking stab shadow ball meant less in gen 2, obviously. Gen 3 had more ghosts but it still didn't matter as much. But gen 4-6 introduced a bunch of new powerful ghost types that really wanted to use their stab moves for coverage: the legendary Giratina, Rotom (pre alt forms), Chandelure, Aegislash, just to name a few prominent Pokemon. I think your issue here is the lack of variety. You like variety. In your opinion, using stab moves is less variety, too predictable, and thus a negative. But for many people, a LOT of Pokemon sucked because they unfairly lacked a stab move for their attack or special typing. I think you would be fine with more variety but sadly, not every Pokemon is Mew: not every Pokemon has a move pool with 100 options. So yes, that means less variety inherently. And it means using the best moves available to a Pokemon in their move pool - which is almost always the stab coverage plus whatever moves complement their physical or special set.

[@Nyundaa]

I played gen 3 competitive a lot and I have a counterpoints to this video: Skarmbliss That strategy plagued gen 3 OU and every team HAD to have an answer to it which there weren't many of.

[@gamereviewerbr]

How much moveset variety loss comes from nerfs and how much comes from the moveset itself being genuinely good in a new environment? Had the split not happened, gen 4 Gengar would have been running Sucker Punch or Dark Pulse instead of Shadow ball on every set to nail weakened Latias and Celebi. And even if Gengar had received Flamethrower and Ice beam in gen 4 as compensation for losing the punches as viable options it would still be discouraged from running them because stronger fire-types like Heatran would now exist.

[@rajkanishu]

This is a great educational video, hopefully it will get more people to try out Gen 3 OU and eliminate the prejudice from their minds. I think you made some great points and I fully agree with everything you said, in the competitive scene, the split is definitely not a strictly positive change (though I think the good outweighs the bad by a lot), it would definitely be if the game was balanced specifically for singles and doubles rather than around the context of Pokémon themselves, but that's not what Game Freak wants to go for and that's perfectly fine. One thing I'd like to point out is that even the negative aspects you listed are not necessarily strictly negative aspects, for example, giving more set options to certain Pokémon deletes the possible niches some other similiar Pokémon may have, and thus limits the variety of playable Pokémon in the metagame in favor of set variety, which some people might dislike; afterall Gen 3 OU does have a core of good Pokémon known as the "Big 5" and Gengar being highly customizable and adaptable to most scenarios is one of the reasons you can make almost anything work with a team structure based around some or all of these five Pokémon. Also some people might dislike the "guessing game" and mindgames associated with deciphering a Pokémon's set, while it is true that it adds a layer of skill, requiring knowledge of the metagame and understanding of game scenarios, it is also true that the opponent could specifically use a counterintuitive set to bluff and throw you off, making the entire thing up to chance (though this is very rare, I believe). I think gen 4 was the perfect time to introduce the split as with almost 500 Pokémon we really needed a system capable of making them feel more unique and usable. But as I said I agree with pretty much everything you said and I think these are mostly small and barely significant nitpicks, the whole thing is an ultimately subjective matter

[@Imitationist]

We also have to consider that getting 5-6 desired ivs for that hidden power type coverage and power was difficult to accomplish in the actual game, hence it was generally never used.

[@CoralReaper707]

There was always something really cool about the elemental punches being special attacks. Especially in gen 2 where they were provided as tms in goldenrod city as sort of early game STAB options and/or coverage. Speaking of special attacks, I have an idea for an ability that just turns all punching moves into special attacks. It's called phantom limb.

[@dastardlydwarf6909]

Personally I liked that certain types were physical or special. I always had the logic that stuff like fire punch and ice punch is special cause the punch isn’t actually doing the damage it’s the fire covering the fist. I also feel it made the amount of sets that are usable are way more numerous. I find it really fun figuring out wether Ttar is special or physical. I think this is the biggest reason I love it. Basically I agree with everything you said and is one of the numerous reasons why gen 3 is the goat Edit: the physical special split also ruined mixed attackers to a large degree. Mixed attackers are really interesting and made the game more interesting.

[@santasangre996]

Yeah i spent so much time in the damaga calc optimizing mixed attackers, love gen 3

[@grimnir8872]

"it made the amount of sets that are usuable way more numerous" This is literally objectively false though

[@Imitationist]

Do you think there should be a distinction between "mainly special attackers with a physical move" and "mainly physical attackers with a special move"?

[@M4x_P0w3r]

Okay, but why was Ghost a physical type and Dark a special one? Also, for TTar, in gen 4 you could still choose to go for a mix set, combining physical moves (Crunch, Pursuit, Eartquake, Superpower, Stone Edge), special moves (Fire Blast, Ice Beam) and support (Stealth Rock) depending on what you need. But at the end of the day, mixed attackers always run the inconvenience of having to split their EV's into two attacking stats, making each of them weaker than if purely specialized into either. Not to mention how this also essentially removes the possibility of set up in exchange for more coverage. 4 slot syndrome hits hard with them.

[@CaptianKatsura]

@@M4x_P0w3r Ghost was presumably Physical because it was supposed to be a counter to Psychic (ignore the actual Gen 1 Gengar vs Psychic-type matchups), and most Psychic types had less Defense than Special. And then when Dark came along in Gen 2, they needed to differentiate it from Ghost (since they both hit the same types for super effective damage), so Dark gets to be Special (and Umbreon is Dark type, and all Eeveelutions are Special types). Now, why didn't they switch Ghost to be Special and make Dark physical instead (and make Umbreon Ghost type, I guess)? I can only assume they didn't want to change something as fundamental as what stat a type uses.

[@SpaceFrog999]

“I could make a whole deep dive video exploring gen 3 gengar and all its options” PLEASE DO PLEASE DO PLEASE DO PLEASE DO

[@MateusSFigueiredo]

I haven't seen Gengar fighting the same Mon this much since resetting Red

[@BiffTheBanana]

This is actually really interesting, as someone who started with gen 4, I had always sort of brushed off earlier gens as a kid, but stuff like this helps me realise the nuances that are there to be enjoyed in the old system

[@superfrubblez6123]

I think pre physical and special split metas are interesting due to the limitations it has, not the options that were last. I think the the new options to other mons far outweigh the few lost from the physical special split. Limiting Pokémon can make them cool in a different way. But I also think they can still give smart limitations while letting Pokémon still have the physical/special split.

[@KJ-Castro]

When I first heard about Gen 3's type mechanics, I was stunned. Although I do enjoy the physical / special split in later generations, this video has shown me that Gen 3 competitive still retains its qualities despite the type mechanics. Game mechanics may change over time, but just because it works doesn't mean it does not come with it's negative drawbacks. Gengar having Fire and Ice punch never made sense to me at first. But over time, I just accepted that it did had those moves at one point and it worked out effectively. I also would like to agree with the your point on Dragapult. When a pokemon's moveset is limited, you can be creative with it's move set, which gives it more variety. Thus more usage and fun. Maybe Game Freak might release a mode in the future where it brings back the old type mechanics from Gen 3 and prior. I think that would make things just a bit more fun for the veterans.

[@Jfrost9101]

I think Physical/Special split was moreso done with casual players at the front of their minds. Gen 1-3 had a lot of interesting coverage options that a casual player was unlikely to ever get; conversely, Gen 4 onwards lets more pokemon access good moves casually, at the cost of some of their vast coverage and versatility competitively falling away.

[@Luminoodles]

Something else that could be mentioned about the physical/special split is how it changed how a lot of defensive Pokémon functioned. For example, Regice could be a very powerful special wall when positioned correctly. You could even set up rain to resist fire type attacks and get coverage with Thunder and HP Water. So long as you knew not to leave it out against mons with decent fighting, rock, or steel attacks it can be really tough to take out. But nowadays it’s barely worth a glance because you can hit it physically with any type, plus the addition of strong physical fighting and rock moves.

[@kala__362]

Pre-split also had some nice stability in the sense that it gave some Pokemon a more clear role. Suicune is so good as a Calm Minder in Gen 3 because boosting its SpDef helps it deal with its only two weaknesses. If Breloom suddenly had a physical Grass move in Gen 3, it would have way more trouble.

[@ben99ny69]

Doesn't that thinking go completely against this video. Then why would you not run calm mind on suicune?

[@kala__362]

@@ben99ny69 Actually, Suicune without Calm Mind is a very real and good set in ADV too

[@alexgaldamez5995]

This is really eye-opening actually. I'm definitely a newer player so the split was something I'm used to it but I think the limitations are really cool, especially in light of new broken pokemon without drawbacks being made all the time. Very good video

[@IrfanFakhrianto]

i feel like the old moveset wipe of gen 9 could be a really interesting thing to talk about, especially if it stays the same even when Home rolls around also can iron fellow beat iron mugulis?

[@HangryLuna]

If iron fellow fights iron mugulis both win.

[@philtommygino1]

I can tell the passion of this video coming from a genuine Gen 3 OU fan. Much love Jimothy, I've been subbed since the NL videos but this Pokémon content has been top notch

[@saiyanfreak]

Banette is the pokemon who was affected the most by the physical/special split. The complete opposite of Gengar. Losing its benefit from all Ghost moves formerly being physical with its massive attack stat.

[@ellowell8160]

I think power creep had just as much to do with cutting down on variety as the damage split. Every gen they've gotta come up with new moves and filling in the types without chunky stab moves is a no brained. By gen 5 almost every type had a viable move whether atk or spatk and almost every mon had requisite access to them. Save for some clearly intentional exceptions. Thus did the induced demand for moveset variety dropped off a cliff.

[@dougstrother5184]

All of this boils down to “it makes you think more” but I think having intuitive gameplay makes it far more interesting. There’s nothing more frustrating than a great pokemon like gengar who simply cannot get stab. And it can also lead to situations where a pokemon is great against certain types offensively but not defensively and vice versa and personally it just creates a very frustrating experience

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

And frustration means less fun for most.

[@dougstrother5184]

@@majungasaurusaaaa exactly

[@TheOnlyBeestrum]

Great video. I've recently been playing through Pokemon Crystal on the 3ds VC and hadn't known about the Split beforehand. I got *really* surprised when a Magnemite resisted my Clefable's shadow ball.

[@grunkleg.2934]

Well that's mainly because Steel resisted Ghost and Dark until Gen 6

[@nicgerling6738]

Gen 3 is my preferred generation. There is so much creativity involved designing sets for gen 3 OU and emerald battle tower, because something unexpected like a special attacking elemental hariyama can catch you off gaurd. But gen 4 meta onwards, there is no reason to be creative investing into a low stat and Hariyama is used more predictably, always a physical attacker. Other significant changes to the meta starting in gen 4: -Stealth rocks: honestly a huge reason why I play gen 3. One move learnt by so many pokemon limits heaps of type combination viability. Didn't bug and ice types have a hard enough time switching in already? -focus blast/elemental fangs/aqua jet: focus blasts BP is insane for the amount of Pokemon that can learn it. Psychic types already have high spA stats (gen 3 OU focus punch alakazam was a more creative approach). Having a chance to be frozen/burned/paralyzed as well as flinching sucks when luck is not on your side (gen 3 boltbeam gyarados was more creative). Water types' slow speed was compemsated by their high bulk. Aqua jet was one too many priority moves for me. -Magic guard

[@browserjunior4707]

I think Gen 3 really is the generation to showcase how positive and negative the split was cause some Pokémon in Gen 3 were designed with the mechanics of Gen 3 in mind like Banette and Sceptile. Shadow Ball being Banette’s strongest stab and Sceptile having access to a special dark type move and special dragon claw was very helpful for it. A lot of Pokémon had the benefits of varied movepool and good variety in its coverage that were stripped away during the split. Banette now has to use Shadow Claw as a stab move instead of Shadow Ball and Sceptile now has to deal with a very middling coverage spread of Dragon and Grass moves. It’s honestly fascinating how they chose to design Pokémon that would be better with the split and Pokémon that would be hurt by the same split in the same generation

[@Isabelle-mp8rk]

another thing the split impacted was more defensive pokemon, like bulky waters are only weak to special moves thus making the high damage threats you could face a lot more predictable, you wouldn't see some random electric coverage that scared you from a pure physical attacker.

[@leoambard3134]

I think using gengar as an example is disingenuous. Do you honestly think gar would be top tier OU in ddp without shadow ball and focus blast? What gave gar it’s colorful move set originally was the ability to run a variety of evs for thinks like pursuit, mence hp flying, zapdos t bolt, etc. in gen 4 it can’t do that because of rocks, physical pursuit, and an overall power level increase. If gengar did not change at all going into gen 4 I think it would have dropped to uu. I do agree that the split made set variety overall less diverse.

[@sand-attack]

The split was a huge part of what drove the power level increase. Gengar had to add a STAB special attack to keep up because everything else was doing the same thing

[@FaceD0wnDagon]

True. More straightforward is not always better. I do like the idea of attack types "leaning" one way or the other, via having better or worse base power moves. So, thunderbolt vs thunderpunch making Electric a "special" type even after gen 4, or return vs hyper voice making normal a "physical" type, etc. I feel like offensive mixed attackers are almost a lost art at this point, lol.

[@Kuroig53]

Good video. Yeah, physical/special split was overall a good thing, but it's sad some of the interesting set variety the limitations bringed were lost. Like, toxapex has so much options and things going its way that it's a pretty frustaing/uninteresting pokemom to battle and use for most gens. Specially compared to stuff like swampert in gen 3, which while yes pretty good, it has quite a few limitations that made it interesting to fight and use, such as being vulnerable to spikes, no recovery outside of leftovers, etc

[@KingZekrom644]

Tbf, I don't think it was the Physical/Special Split that made Toxapex good. It was just it having every amazing stall/utility option made it frustrating to deal with. Chien-Pao is a better example of the Phys/Spec split, cause without it, it'd have to find some unique ways to use its ability Sword of Ruin. Instead though, it just spams STAB

[@Kuroig53]

@@KingZekrom644 Yeah ik, I wasn't using it as a physical/special split example per say. Just a example of something that's more interesting competitively because of limitations

[@robertlupa8273]

Swampert is still weak to Spikes and doesn't have any recovery outside of Lefties and Rest tho

[@coldeed]

Before the split, alot of nuance actually came into what a good list of moves was on the pokemon. After the split, most default to best stab option for a large majority of matchups, and the variety is a bit more limited. It kinda forces more streamlined designs to be more viable.

[@n16r49]

Same point could be made for the special split as well, now we have 2 symmetric stats that work the same way. I think this asymmetry leads to more interesting decision making while a symmetric design leans more on execution. Trying to figure out what tools to bring vs knowing how good every tool is at every job.

[@davidowen1506]

The neatest thing about phys/special split is it allowed for high stats with a drawback. Gengars special attack as an example is actually much lower effectively when it’s hitting neutral because it no longer gets the 1.5X boost from stab. This allows a penalty for neutral hits from a mon with what are on their face very strong stats to be weaker. It also can create much more interesting options for mixed attackers.

[@juliner4036]

That's true. Some pokemon did get more boring with the split. For example, in Gen 3, Iron Fellow sometimes ran a choice band physical set, despite its lower attack compared to special attack, because Normal and Steel were physical. It was a nice mix up, since it could also run clam mind effectively. Nowadays, it just uses it's stabs + thunderbolt all the time. Maybe slap a stealth rock on it instead of psychic. Just... plain.

[@masterjoda999]

New signature move for cloyster and shellder: Clam Mind

[@gouthammahesh3298]

Love these kinds of videos Jimothy! Touched on a topic that a lot of people overlook. Hope we can revive Great Tusk ASAP so he can travel back in time to Gen 3 OU and abuse his STAB types without fear of them being special attacks

[@pribnow6225]

I can't believe Jimothy would introduce a new villain before the current one was even dealt with

[@ultimatehope549]

I can’t believe they gave Shuckle’s past paradox form 137 speed and 198 special attack so that it would outspeed and overpower Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu. But it’s another Grass Dark type so at least it’s stuck in UU at the moment

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

something you could have mentioned is that mixed attackers are very rare as a result of the physical special split. in the past if you wanted to hit certain pokemon you'd need certian types regardless of whether it was your primary attacking stat it used, and you'd sacrifice your main attacking stat to ev to beat key targets. in the modern age of pokemon there is almost no reason to do this, since most mons with two good attack stats has good stab on both sides, so if you want a particular coverage option you just pick that side (e.g. you're not putting moonblast, aura sphere, shadow ball, liquidation on iron valiant no matter how nice that base attack is). you're encouraged by the huge move variety to use a 252/252/4 split on all your attackers unless you're ev-ing defences to tank hits, its another case in pokemon where the more choices you have in theory the less you have in practice, since the majority of options are pointless compared to the best 1%

[@idr121]

Iron Valiant not the best example. Last time I played VGC a mixed set was pretty common choice for it. With CC/Moon Blast/Shadow Sneak/Protect IIRC.

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

@@idr121 i can definitely imagine the extra coverage being useful in vgc but i was talking about singles like jim, and since gen 4 mixed attackers are rarely viable in singles, and generally it's just one coverage move that you're forced to run like nidoking having superpower for blissey or fireblast on physical garchomp for corv. particularly with gen 9 powercreep ou is a very boring place and if your mons dont have the most optimal stats possible they lose

[@idr121]

@@aldrichunfaithful3589 Yeah I think analyses like this are very problematic for singles, because you typically need to use mons with a strong niche, while doubles benefits from role compression more.

[@shinyduke1791]

Though I can't say I'm wholely convinced with your argument I really appreciate this perspective. I want to add I think the P/S actally helped make pokemon power creep worse. Using your dragaplut example, it not having a strong ghost move to me was intentional in the same way dragons not having strong dragon moves was in previous gens. How dragon types were in game envisioned are innately powerful and rare pokemon and to balance that their moves weren't has hard hitting or had cost. Dragonite didn't have a good flying stab in addition to dragon not having moves that were as spammable as flamethrower because it got all the best moves already. Dragons broke gen 4-5 and part of that was due to a best like garchomp having access to powerful stabs on both ends as well as this godlike movepool.

[@jacopocasati1690]

Iron mugulis was just primal Kyogre in a mug costume. This time iron fellow is origin dialga under a clever disguise

[@kingpig8732]

its pretty baffling that gamefreak only endorses competitive doubles while pretty much the entire singleplayer experience is singles

[@Hayds126]

I think shadow claw on Dragapult would be a fine addition to it because I don't think it really invalidates the special set. Shadow claw is only a 70bp move which isn't particularly high. Current special sets could still exist against some threats especially since in general there are more things punishing physical attackers than special ones (such as intimidate, contact triggering abilities/items and burn). Meanwhile physical sets would also have a consistent option. Now something like poltergeist I'd disagree with because 110bp is a lot better and might push dragapult over the edge.

[@NightmareSnake]

Typhlosion losing good Thunderpunch coverage was a pretty big deal, but I've learned to make up for it by using Solar Beam and having good support Pokemon with Drought. Modern problems require modern solutions, and I'm not gonna drop my boy.

[@Acepridi56]

Awesome video! It got me thinking... How would the metagame be affected if no Pokémon could use their STABs? Like, imagine all Pokés had to use only coverage options. You'd need a Stallbreaker on every team, but the sweepers and the tanks could be way more interesting to use, even more if that 'mon has a deep movepool (like Gengar or Hydreigon). ...oooor maybe it would become a complete snorefest full of stall. Who knows?

[@doopness785]

Timid Gengar with Thunderbolt Gigadrain Will-O-Wisp Substitute. Was my Gen 3 Gengar. Love that dude!

[@cise3895]

Though it’s very believable that Gamefreak added the split without putting much thought into it, I don’t think it’s an auto-conclusion like the video implies. Maybe they actively chose to steer the game away from the “creative limitation” approach and just wanted to see big-ass numbers. This is the same company that designed monstrosities like Chi-yu, after all. Also I’m speaking entirely out of my ass here, but I feel like the type-based split is centralizing in its own way. Yes, a Pokemon like Gengar is a lot less one-note in gen 3, but in my eyes that’s just as much as a result of limitation as it is a result of privilege: this pokemon is _so_ good that it functions just fine _even without_ viable STAB.

[@Imitationist]

Having access to will o wisp and perish trap made it usuable, and we know how nasty burns are in gen 3 since nasty plot was not even around then

[@aaronc2122]

Cant believe 62.1% of viewers would put themselves at risk of Iron Fellow.. 😢

[@Kali_Krause]

Flareon also gets screwed over by the physical/special split. This thing has a base Attack stat of 130, and yet it doesn't get Flare Blitz until X and Y. It gets Fire Fang for STAB and Last Resort, which is a Normal type move in gen 4.

[@shanerpressley]

I would love to see a modern Pokémon developed PURPOSEFULLY to lack stab and therefore rely on creative loadouts. I could see this working great on a defensive Pokemon where their typing makes way more sense for taking hits instead of dishing out damage

[@Imitationist]

But these pokemon will then need to contribute something to a team other than just taking hits though, or else it's not going to see use. Look at klefki. It can set up dual screens or status non-dark types due to prankster priority

[@shanerpressley]

@@Imitationist maybe they could use a utility attack like zap cannon which offers status condition

[@Imitationist]

@@shanerpressley status attacks can work, but the current pace of the game requires the user to have at least 70% effective accuracy when using these moves since these attacks have to hit the opponent before inflicting status.

[@nift36]

Just look at Electivire and Luxray lol

[@tysondennis1016]

Move Idea: Flashback Room (removes the physical/special split for 5 turns, Fairy-type moves become special).

[@TwoHeadedMeerkat]

Gengar: "You took my _only_ coverage! Now I'm going to starve..."

[@AmoniPaleo]

It was small price to pay... Yes we might not have Gengar with Ice punch wich was pretty dope But then we would not have Absol or Sharpedo actually using their physical stabs with effectivness 😔

[@lorebanjo8516]

Nowadays, sharpedo still uses special moves anyways so that barely matters for him

[@KRG30001]

For me, I grew up with gens 1-3 and am most comfortable playing within those mechanics

[@WooperTrooper4]

Sounds like the issue is mostly with power creep. You bring up good points. I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with how it workes gen 1-3, game freak just did such an ass job implementing it. Punch moves special? Wack.

[@lordinfernape4753]

11:40 Because special moves are way less spammable and nasty plot has a worse distribution than swords dance It wouldnt balance things out it would just make special Pokemon useless Same reason why we dont have a speciak intimidate

[@yungmuney5903]

Special moves are not less spammy at all wtf?

[@lordinfernape4753]

@@yungmuney5903 Watch BKC video about what if choice specs was in ADV

[@lordinfernape4753]

@@yungmuney5903 They were in Gen3

[@reddragonair3147]

Great video, Jim! I really appreciate you expressing this viewpoint. I feel the same way. Well done.