Jocko Podcast 315 w/ Echo Charles: Draft Dodgers. And Low IQ Men as Cannon Fodder. McNamara's Folly

[@charlestour4681]

I joined the Army in 1968. I was a high school drop out. Alcoholism was rampant. I was impressed by one thing. While going thru Airborne school. I noticed whenever one of the SEALS got busted for something and ordered to do push-ups. ALL of the other SEALS joined them. I was impressed.

[@patrickcooper7629]

Guaranteed there was more of an "Every man for himself" ethos in the seal era of the 1990s-2000s with Benjamin Sifrit and Chris Kyle really showing sociopathy more than manilness and cooperation were the motivating factors behind many "successful" SEALs.

[@vitigaymer1053]

Well SEALs considered Airborne School to be a vacation after BUDS. So no doubt they were doing that to flex on the Army.

[@keithseymour9316]

Crazy piece of history. I'm impressed with Jocko's compassion at the situation. Impressed with Echo's ability to rationalise and understand some of the draft dodging, and for him to present Jocko with an alternative view, and for Jocko to thank him and learn from it. Great discussion from some top notch military heros. Learning a lot from these podcasts.

[@JR-ju3kj]

It was before my time but as a student of history,as someone who loves to learn about history and hearing from veterans and people who were alive at the time,it was quite a complex,intense and heated situation as I understand it. But I always felt like there was a big difference between being like Muhammad Ali,John Lithgow,Bruce Springsteen,Cheech Marin and others who were conscientious objectors and between being a cowardly draft-dodger like Ted Nugent and Donald Trump.

[@CJ-oj8om]

Underrated comment

[@sangyedorje]

Echo is actually such a good counter balance to Jocko, they are an excellent team.

[@JustaRandomDude1791]

I have never regretted talking to men who publicly acknowledge their service in the war and those who I asked who I thought would fit the age of service. I live in Mississippi, all of these men - about half a dozen - were drafted. Only two of which went to Vietnam, our brief conversations in gas stations will always stick with me - they both served through The Tet Offensive. One of these men was an older brown gentleman, who spoke to me about surviving the assault on Hue City and eventually returning home to then begin being retrained/refitted to subdue race rights in California - his confliction was palpable. I don't remember that man's name but I will always remember his story. These are the old men of our society, I hope by God we can express gratitude and empathy to these men over there service before they're eternally gone.

[@thatguybrooke]

Yes sir... makes the heart weep when you hear things like that happened to him.

[@richardcheese4722]

This generation got stump fuged. My folks taught high school kids late 60s early 70s. I witnessed the era thru the cherry eyes of a child. I watched some good kids become felons to escape the draft. Many tried college, nat guard, or reserves. Many had ww2/Korea vet fathers that insisted their sons fight. I seen alot of these fellas before and after vietnam. I saw what it did to them. No other generation of Americans has been caught between a rock and a hard place like the nam generation. My hats off to them.

[@mickeydee3595]

I dont know about the USA, but our Vietnam vets (Australia) got treated like absolute dog shit whilst in service (Post office and postal services would not deliver their mail) and once they got back home from the general public. They got absolutely shafted.

[@Artist21st]

@Richard Cheese Thank you for sharing.

[@goinhot9133]

Then to top it off, our media & institutions like higher education (students/staff), wanted to throw rocks, grandstand, & call them baby killers.

[@deadheadwsp705]

@@mickeydee3595 same in US unfortunately

[@cM-zm5kp]

At the same time, they had a a more stable economy and a dollar went farther

[@jamesgunnyreed]

You know Jocko is wound up reading about this. He rarely ever cusses this much.

[@mauricelangley5033]

Yeah. I noticed that.

[@kristinfredrickson3154]

N Often de cussin’ is de only way to xpress- ask a Long Islanda- 1000 definitions for de 4 letta woid... beginin wit ‘F’‼️

[@whiteguy4282]

He’s quoting the book.

[@griffineagle7]

iam not of the military but i see it has totally disrespect to put low IQ men within arms reach of well trained men and dangerous ..

[@echoredfour]

@white guy yep all the cussing so far was as he read the book. What’s in the book was common usage back then. The term lower than whale shit was what I remember learning from basic. Never heard it before and thought who make up all this shit, some were gems.

[@resistencialiberal9555]

I almost cry when Jocko read the story of Mike Sanchez running through live fire to save the Leitenant who took care of him.

[@themaddestlad7554]

My uncle got his draft notification when my dads family was in Canada. Threw it away and volunteered. Still went infantry lol got wounded twice, completed his service. Had to be put in a home for veterans who couldn't take care of themselves. He used his money he was getting from the VA to take care of the other vets who didn't have families who lived in his assisted living facility. We all had a collective cry when me and my dad had to tell those guys he passed away. He's the reason I joined the army. He was damn good man.

[@historyrepeat402]

The thing they were missing about the draft is it was avoidable in the first place. America was never worried about being invaded or collapsing only losing, so they didn’t need endless soldiers as much as they just needed more. Ask a 18 year old Vietnamese kid if they could use braces or flat feet to avoid the war.

[@theundergroundlairofthesqu9261]

ARVN just deserted and went home if they wanted a break.

[@robinmiller871]

Didn't seem like usa wanted to win... seems like it was more for the machine to keep running!

[@theundergroundlairofthesqu9261]

@@robinmiller871 It did seem like too many people were just treating it as an ongoing process, instead of having any specific goals. (But nothing like that has happened since.) Keep in mind that always lurking as a possible background would be China entering the war -- which they did in Korea, and our firepower vs. their supply of bodies was a stalemate. And, also something we had to avoid was nuclear war with, say, Russia. (I forget at what point China had the bomb, or missile systems worth a dang.)

[@bouncypickle7621]

New policy proposal: When the next draft comes, the first people drafted should be the sons, brothers, uncles, and nephews of the people that got us into the war. (Politicians, generals,defense company executives, etc...) No cushy POG jobs either...straight to the fucking line

[@marysalerno467]

No rich man's son has ever been drafted.

[@R.Tafolla]

The Jocko podcast is so powerful. Great content Mr. Willink!

[@yavin99]

I went through Army basic in 1993 and apparently these guys still slip through the cracks sometimes because I went to basic with a guy that was slow, he never did learn how to march by the end of training we had been dropped and done thousands of pushups for this guy but nobody said anything because there was nothing we could do this guy he just barely passed the PT test and the rifle range and he almost got recycled because he couldn't pass the run until he went off for his very last try and meraculously passed when nobody was around but the DS. Every single morning before 1st formation after PT he would come to me and my battle buddy and ask what he needed to bring to formation and the answer was the same every day, bring everything just like every other day but when we went to graduate our DSs told us this guy wasn't going to march with us when we graduate because he cant march and we might have been the first basic training platoon ever that argued with their DS because we insisted that this guy march with us and after hours of getting smoked for arguing with our DS he did get to march with us.

[@oxygenpoisoning]

I went through Army Infantry OSUT a decade after you, and had a similar experience. We had a guy who had a 13 GT score on his ASFAB. The minimum was 30, which in and of itself is painfully low. He couldn't read or write, but luckily did well following directions and was actually pretty good at PT. More difficult tasks like Land Navigation, or Squat STX lanes definitely tripped him up, but he ended up graduating and going back to the National Guard in the Pacific Northwest. A few years later I was a brand new Butter Bar and saw first hand what loosening standards during the height of the Iraq war had done on both sides of the fence. I went through BOLC with people who were college graduates but couldn't shoot, pass land navigation, or prepare a basic OPORDER. Others were smart but had horrible anxiety and depression and couldn't make a decision. As a platoon leader, I was getting fresh recruits out of AIT that couldn't pass a PT test, didn't know the basics of their jobs, and ultimately were chaptered out due to failure to adapt.

[@thatguybrooke]

That sounds like recruit Crespo for me😔. Parris Island '05, I don't think he ever came to line up in time/with both shoes tied right. Fucking good for you guys!

[@joshmontgomery4040]

Jocko is fired up on this one and rightfully so. One Damn good pod cast!

[@bustavonnutz]

1:14:45 Dude is pissed, but he's dealing with boomers here so hey.

[@wnessnol]

The look on Jocko's face when he read the nickel for a dime scam was sad and terrifying

[@envstudies]

Thank you both for sharing these podcasts with us all for free. I am an elementary teacher in my first year, teaching online, trying to bridge the academic and social gaps for kids which have resulted from covid-19, in a district that encounters homelessness. Your podcasts have helped me to go to the gym after work when I can barely stay awake. In 2020, my uncle who was a 2nd force recon marine, died after a valiant fight with cancer. Listening to your podcasts filled with truth, hope, and work, helps me to feel like he's close, to laugh through the overwhelmimg, and to aim for excellence one day (often one moment) at a time. Thank you.

[@box228]

I recently took the practice test at a recruiters office and the recruiter told me the lowest score he's seen was a one.

[@burnssy112]

Looks like it’s the Marines for you!

[@box228]

@@burnssy112 haha or a run for president

[@jacoblinares2403]

@@box228 let's go brandon

[@jamesgunnyreed]

@@burnssy112 Other than the Air Force the Marines are the hardest to get into. ASVAB, Physical, Physical Standards, and prior legal issues. We only eat crayons because they taste good. And its tradition.

[@OkOk-vj9db]

@@jamesgunnyreed Not to mention tattoos. They just approved sleeves in November.

[@spire393]

As a forklift driver in a cutlery warehouse, I try to put my military past to rest and focus on my current job. It is true what echo says about that thing. He is spot on.

[@stripmin41]

I love all of your podcasts Jocko but today this is the best podcast you and Echo have ever done. If not for you talking about this I never knew of this part of the war.

[@stevenmoore1170]

Jocko, at about the 1:40 minute mark you said Johnson knew half way in he wasn’t going to win the war”. Actually from almost the beginning Senior Asshole Johnson and Junior Asshole McNamara knew we were not going to win. If you can, get General H.R. McMaster back on to discuss his first book, “Dereliction of Duty”. That is the perfect bookend to this awesome broadcast. If you read it either schedule a six hour workout or blood pressure meds for when you finish it because you will be pissed. It is fascinating in how early in his career General McMaster wrote it. Echo Charles is at the top of his game in this podcast. Not a fan of Trump but every time someone bashed him my reply is always “you did not know LBJ did you?”. Keep up the good work.

[@douglastobiassen2460]

One thing about the draft, you got a tire cross section of American society. When I went though army basic in early 1970, we had guys with advanced degrees as well as a couple of McNamara’s 100k. Both were given general discharges “for the good of the service” once it became clear they lacked the mental capacity to serve at even the most basic level. One of the two was the happiest kid. He could run all day and laughed while knocking out endless push-up. He loved being in the Army. For the first time in

[@elmateo77]

"The guy who's yelling at everybody is usually the guy who's not putting out." That's how the army selects people for officer training, right?

[@charlesbukowski9836]

yeah.. USMC now too.. blue falcon brigade... in my reserve unit, we had a WM E-8 that was 100 pounds overweight order us to run up and down the hills outside the reserve center while she followed in a HV

[@timbo4374]

My brother tried to join the Marines in 66. They turned him down due to a heart murmer which runs in my family. Then he got drafted into the army, but a few days before he was due to report, he got a letter from the Marines saying, never mind, if you still wish to join, we'll take you. He went with the Marines, but now I have to wonder if this was another example of McNamara's folly. Did they decide to lower the standards for physicals as well? He was plenty smart enough, just had that heart murmer. Thankfully, he made it through his deployment, and went on to have a good career in the school system, but he did serve in Nam.

[@mikebrase5161]

When they need warm bodies they will lower standards to meet the demand. In the Iraq war they started allowing a ton of tatoo's in places that would have gotten soldiers discharged.

[@I_Lemaire]

I'm so glad your brother became a Marine and made it back. He is a hero.

[@timbo4374]

@@I_Lemaire Thank you. I'm pretty glad as well!

[@workingguy-OU812]

I believe I met and worked alongside one of these men back in the early 1990's. It was at McDonalds, Norton, Ohio. Roy was a late-Vietnam-era vet, but - luckily - he didn't see action. Instead, he was assigned to setting up volleyball nets, sports fields, etc. at the base he was at (may have been in Alaska, but that was so long ago that I can't recall), as well as clean-up duties and such. Real simple guy. I was 20 years old and working while going through college (or trying to). I felt bad for him.

[@Spoderman5000]

“I’m OK at everything” needs to be on a t-shirt.

[@anaMoc1038]

As an American soldier you’ve got a duty to defend the weak, the poor, the innocent, even within your ranks. Use it as fuel for the fight. Cus D’amato says often a man with character will defeat a better fighter.

[@jacoblinares2403]

I'm glad you wrote that very key word "often". Character can be a bad thing that evil can exploit. Holding hostages, using children, deploying gas etc

[@jaypee389]

@@jacoblinares2403 Beslan.

[@vflex1]

Echo had such great clarity in this interaction. Great discussions guys keep up the great work! From Montreal, Canada 🇨🇦

[@mikelgeren149]

This happened in WWII also , called casualty companies . Had a relative that commanded one of these companies , but these men was never sent to combat zones . Only thing positive that could be said for these men in WWII , they got their benefits even if they could not take full advantage of them.

[@davidreagan7090]

Any advice on something or a place to read about them? I've taken 4-5 classes on WWII (maybe more) and somehow never heard much about this in WWII. Admittedly, I mostly learned it from the European side. US college, European profs.

[@vonp588]

@@davidreagan7090 they weren’t officially known as that or policy from what I understand. Rather there was a understanding the low IQ/physically unfit could be used more effectively doing manual labor or low skill jobs.

[@jaredpeterson380]

When I went through basic at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, we had a guy in our company who was totally out of shape. Couldn't do anything physical. We felt bad for him. He was a college grad. He vanished only to reappear as a captain. He had also graduated from law school. Rose, if you're out there. Good for you!

[@FATMAN_tactical]

Crayons are for? A. Coloring B. Ammunition C. Snacks D. All of the above

[@yoloswaggins2161]

I love echo's accurate psychoanalysis of the coin situation

[@casualgamerboi3789]

The more and more that I learned about what happened during Vietnam the more that conflict saddens me.

[@ramsesv5339]

I have friends and family who fought in WW2, Korea and Nam. I give great respect to them all. They did what had to be done. Thank you to all who serve and who have served.

[@jasonschultz6548]

McNamara's Folly demonstrates that we the people must stand and give our consent to the decisions/laws of our elected representatives. The government serves us, not the other way around. Whenever this principle is neglected, the individual, our freedoms, and our country suffers - no one wins (except maybe some of the elites). When a draft is invoked, it means the military action demanded is against the will of the governed. When a mandate in invoked, it means the governmental action is against the will of the people to live freely.

[@Discipline_equals_freedom]

Echo really touched a nerve with me. I worked in a max security jail for 23 years. I can’t tell you how many inmates cried poverty and how unfair the system is yet when out they had expensive cars,sneakers, clothes ect. They would rather spend their money on other things besides quality legal advice. Priorities is the difference in many many cases. Inner city people are most definitely not stupid. The vast majority are very smart. They know the system inside and out. I always thought if they could find a way to redirect there efforts most could be very successful. It was very disappointing to see daily. I will agree that we fuck over many. I think there should be a way for someone with a felony to get back all their rights as a citizen. I don’t think it should be easy, but someone that makes poor choices as a teen is not the same as a man in his late twenties or thirties that truly wants to live a different life. They are screwed due to their actions as youth. It just leads to the revolving door of prison. Give a shred of hope back to those that have worked to change their life.

[@joe6167]

Gotta wonder if that is a result of low-IQ. One of the characteristics associated with low-IQ is difficulty in deferral of gratification. For example (as a test) you offer a child one piece of Candy now, or 2 pieces of candy later, the low-IQ subject will take the 1 piece of candy now. Deferral of gratification could mean the difference between life and death, for example (in the old days), eating all your food/grain now,saving nothing for the winter, or nothing for next years crops. It also has an effect on corruption: taking bribes now, even though it destroys your society.

[@cr-nd8qh]

Yeah but you need food now ​@@joe6167

[@maxcorder2211]

Jocko, I don’t agree with everything stated here regarding dodging the draft. I was in college in 1964 when I got my notice to register for the draft, which also meant I had to take a physical exam to be classified. We boarded a bus for Memphis and stayed at an old hotel the night before the exam. It was obvious that most of the men had never stayed at a hotel and some of them hadn’t been to a large city. Though we were told no drinking, about half the group got drunk and rowdy. The next day we went to a military base for the exam. I was with two of my longterm friends. One of them had shot off a big toe. He was classified 4F. The other had “hypersensitive hearing”, which was the result of our shooting rifles, shotguns & pistols for years. Another 4F. I was 1A, eligible for the draft as soon as my college deferment was up. I had gone to a land-grant college, and ROTC was compulsory for 2 years. I had enjoyed it. In the final semester of my senior year (1967) I was passing through the building where the ROTC offices were. The Air Force recruiter stopped me and asked what I was going to do after graduation. I told him I had a good job lined up. He said, “You’re going to get drafted and you’ll be toting an M-16 in a rice paddy in 6 months”. I asked him what he thought I should do, and he told me the Air Force needed pilots and if I could pass the entrance requirements I should think about it. I took the test, passed, and went to pilot training. I went to Vietnam and Thailand anyway. For 2 years. Survived ground fire, rocket attacks and SAM missiles. It was the best way for me to go to war, as I found that I had a skill that was useful. I consider it the most important 5 years of my life and shaped me forever.

[@hekkenschutz]

I work with these folks and it breaks my heart to hear this

[@jaxjohnson5372]

Thank you for what you do 🤘

[@krissteel4074]

Before covid I used to volunteer at a once a week gathering to help mentor and help get severely disabled folks to socialise, make new friend and meet new people. They're capable of a lot, but you can't make them do something they don't want to do (just like anyone else) and you cant apply the same stress levels to their day to day life. I mean as an essentially unqualified volunteer I can comprehend that level of capability- its honestly a reprehensible crime that it was allowed to happen and its not a case of 'different times' either, I'm pretty damn sure anyone in the 60's and 70's had some basic, fundamental levels of human empathy to understand this as a simple fact of life that we recognise 50 years later on.

[@concretejonny4894]

The image of the returning soldiers were probably a cause of the public not wanting to go fight.

[@garymeyer5141]

During the Nixon administration Milton Friedman was on a committee to review the draft. While interviewing General Westmoreland a verbal exchange went something like this (not direct quotes). Westmoreland said he supported the draft because he would not command an army of mercenaries. Friedman responded with - but you are OK with commanding an army of slaves?

[@ib1ray]

Milton is the man!

[@jordanfrancisco27]

Finally, caught up with you guys. 315. Been with you guys for 3 years ++. Crushing the drive to work and back home with the Jocko and the troopers. Get some!

[@lynskeyti9940]

Settled in for the evening with coffee and story time with Jocko..... good times

[@blackdotone118]

Jocko, can you or Echo to organize the full podcasts into a playlist? I always have to scroll through a couple hundred videos to find what I want (no use for the clips since I watched the full pods, most of your regular listeners would probably agree). If they were segmented out, clips in one playlist and full videos on one it would make everything much more accessible and usable. Thanks

[@erussell2754]

Let me guess, McNamara was never held accountable for this? Starting a shameful trend where the higher ups aren't held accountable for their actions. Just ask Stuart Scheller

[@kapitandemolka431]

He didn’t start that trend. It was pretty normal throughout history. Also the person that is accountable is the person that agreed to this which is the President.

[@erussell2754]

@@kapitandemolka431 I'm talking about American history. In WWII, we were firing generals at a rapid pace & holding them accountable for their screw-ups. Something happened in Vietnam that began a shameful trend of the higher ranks not being held accountable. I mentioned Stuart Scheller because he's the only one who's been held accountable for the most recent debacle in Afghanistan, and it's only because he criticized the military brass. I do agree however, that the president should have some accountability in these decisions

[@kapitandemolka431]

Again, Mcnamara wasn’t a general. In military terms Us didn’t lost in Vietnam (or Afghanistan recently) they lost political fight, in Vietnam Congress just didn’t agreed to keep fight even thou couple more years and the north would fall

[@erussell2754]

@@kapitandemolka431 We lost politically (& militarily when it counted the most!)...and you're completely missing my point 🙄

[@sirg-had8821]

McNamara was never held accountable just as Johnson, Dow Chemicals, or Sam Colt was never held accountable. Welcome to the American war machine.

[@adamsowers8957]

I got into a debate the other day about high ranking military leadership. My argument was that to get to that level you have to loosen your views on morality in general. And then this podcast enters into my life.

[@silverstar4289]

Listening to this in the truck. Never heard Jocko swear so much. This got to him. It’s pretty maddening to hear the facts. Reminds me that my cousin, older by ten years, was married with two pre school daughters. Gets divorced and is drafted at 25 frigging years old. His father was a WW2 vet who saw a bunch of shit, so doing his duty was in his DNA. He didn’t go to Vietnam, as he was pretty bookish and worked in staff positions when knowing how to type was a skill. He sometimes was tasked with delivering death notification to inner city 1960’s Louisville. My other cousin was pretty bright, and knew that finishing first place in AIT meant you could choose your duty station . He finished number one and selected “not Vietnam “. Germany he we come. Speaks volumes. Finish as the best in Advanced Infantry Training, and you don’t have to go to a war zone.

[@nelsonsavinon605]

This episodes are much better (and smarter) than a college education.

[@johnfestich5008]

So far I really like this one. I didn't know Jocko was a comedian as well as a decorated Seal and I like that Echo is much more vocal.

[@timmcclymont3527]

Judging by the title, this is gunna be a really interesting one.

[@BCTTV_DTJ]

This reminds me of another movie, Casualties of War. There's a scene where a young private is running around acting all goofy and Michael J Fox yells at him trying to get him to chill out and the kid runs off and gets blown up by a landmine.

[@thomashenderson6049]

Casualties of War is a great but underappreciated war movie. I had renewed respect for both Penn and Fox after viewing.

[@DrewishAF]

That part about Freddy actually broke my heart.

[@couchfighter]

I remember in the movie "A FEW GOOD MEN" The part where the two accused marines talk and the older marine says "we are supposed to protect those that cant protect themselves"

[@elmateo77]

I think that's supposed to mean civilians though, he's not talking about covering for the half of your squad that can't figure out how to tie their shoes or which end of the gun the bullets come out of...

[@thissouthafricanlife8420]

I once watched what must have been a 10 episode, 1 hour each series on the Vietnam War. I never heard ANYTHING about this 😮

[@Obsulus07]

2:26:48 - My section spent 30 hours sitting in the desert with a recovery asset while the rest of the Army tried to recover the two soldiers captured in retaliation for the actions of those shitbags. The two MIA's corpses showed up on the side of Route Tampa, charred and decapitated, three days after the search was called off.

[@vtr2690]

those questions are the same today, took my asvab for the marines about 2 months ago and the questions were similar. He started reading them and first thing that clicked was me sitting in the room by myself with a computer being like “ this is first grade stuff “

[@god-la-7wins-verdad-942]

That futurama scene where the space commander says “i sent waves & waves of men until we beat them”… lol

[@theintellectualnovice7089]

Well we’re living in McNamara’s folly today, with the woke culture and the decrease standards in society. Look how the military lower the standards for women to pass special force training.

[@whydat684]

Truth AF

[@ThePhillkillv2]

Women have proven to be effective soldiers, but they should not be held to the same standards as men. There is nothing wrong with having women among the ranks of men, so I think you using that as an alibi or to prove that society's standards are changing is bullshit, through and through.

[@theintellectualnovice7089]

@@ThePhillkillv2 I have no issues with women in the military. The only issue I have with that is changing the special forces standards to appeal to the feminist public. They want equity not equality.

[@bouncypickle7621]

@@ThePhillkillv2 when exactly have they proven they belong in the ranks of a line company?

[@ryantruckman]

@@ThePhillkillv2 non combative roles. Maybe.....

[@davidshettlesworth1442]

The movie "Animal House" does a good job of showing the Draft. The sean is Faber College Vietnam era, done when Dean Vernon Wormer has the "Animal House fraternity members in his office; Tells them they are finished: "Your names have been sent to the Draft Board" alerting them of your draft status to 1A = All eligible for military service, the draft.

[@alz.7716]

Heartbreaking! Thank you for conveying this knowledge.

[@petrairene]

Wow. This is outrageous. That's the same guy who tried to force Air Force and Navy to get the same jet for cost efficiency, despite radically different needs of both services, ending in the debacle with the Navy who had to refuse to accept the F111 because it was not suitable for their needs. Why wasn't that guy kicked out, he was clearly incompetent.

[@Cuffsmaster]

I graduated High School in 1967 and didn't really have the money for college and wanted no part of the war. However I came from a family that had served in the military since the War of 1812. I knew I needed to serve but wanted no part of the Army or Marines. . I always wanted to join the Navy as did my grandfather. during WW1. I was an Aviation Electricians Mate. during my 4 years. in service. I also wanted to go in order to get the G.I. Bill. I did and attended college after my term was over. I am happy that I served but never supported the war. Most of us just tolerated the military and just counting down time from the day we joined.

[@clydeglide2041]

I was approached to join the local National Guard. I decided to take my chances on not being drafted. 2 years later the Northeast Kansas Unit was activated and sent to Vietnam. 2 boys I knew were killed there. I had taken the pre induction physical but was saved by the abolishment of the draft.

[@SweatyFatGuy]

Circumstances led me to where I was the highest paid, lowest ranking, oldest E4 in the USAF when I went back in 2000, then I was promoted to E5 in 2002 at 33 years old. I had been out for 7 years after the gulf war thanks to the 92 draw down, so I lost all my time in grade. The result was I got all the screw up airmen. The fat kids, the slow kids, the guys who got DUIs, and the one asshole would could not comprehend the idea of taking a shower at least twice a month and doing laundry more than once a year. They knew I had run a business with several employees between my enlistments, and the chain took advantage of that. I had all the people who had volunteered, but had attitude problems or lacked the will to keep basic up standards. I had ten airmen, only worked with two of them on my shift, two on the other shift in my duty section, and the rest in a completely different duty section. I never saw the rest of them, but would often have to go find them during the day when I worked 1900 to 0700. I rarely had a day off, and worked far too many 24, 36, and 48 hour days during my time in the USAF. Not crew rest stuff, but working like an E3 for days on end and I was usually the only one being put in that position. I was the safety NCO for my duty section as well, so I got to deal with all the screw ups made on both shifts... I was not allowed to do more than talk to them, write letters of counselling or reprimand, and after enough paperwork I could finally send it up the chain for an officer to punish them when all the remedial training failed. They volunteered to be there... Forcing NCOs to work with draftees who don't want to be there is a nightmare for an NCO. Trying to teach the slow kids to do the job, only to have them get good at it today, and have lost it all by the next day happened to me. Book smart kids who cannot operate heavy equipment or even drive a vehicle and lacked hand eye coordination was bad enough. Having someone with a 50 IQ trying to do my math and physical labor heavy job of processing cargo and putting it on aircraft would be worse than a nightmare. The slow kids usually managed to get hurt, getting caught between pallets or run over by them, and sometimes nearly killed people by pushing a pallet off a dock with no forklift to pick it up. The military is not the place for people who are not bright enough to do the job, do not want to be there, or are looking for a way to get out of it. I am beyond thrilled I have been out for the last 16 years, I would NOT want to be in right now with the current administration pushing stupid shit.

[@esk8er900]

Unfortunately it seems every generation is faced with this awful moral / practical mess in some way or another and there’s often no correct answer. Of course like anywhere or anytime in history, some will receive preferential treatment or mistreatment for that matter. It’ll never change and as long as we actively inject ourselves into situations that don’t concern us or genuinely benefit our nation as a whole, this will repeat itself again and again in every imaginable form. For example: nobody wants a reluctant, substandard or incompetent doctor, lawyer or cop… why would they want or expect their armed forces to perform effectively when they’re unwilling or unable to do so. In the post WWII world, we should not still be in this situation and yet what do we see??!?

[@stevenobrien557]

How do slow kids get into the air force? I thought they had a reputation for being able to pick and choose recruits?

[@charlesbukowski9836]

@@stevenobrien557 generational... we were getting the same trash in the Corps...

[@JasonParham83]

In reference to the video, what stupid shit is happening today that is being forced? Asking because standards to join the military are higher than ever.

[@spazemfathemcazemmeleggymi272]

@@JasonParham83 yeah, sure they are🤣

[@Klumster]

Come to think about it, during late WW2 we needed bodies so bad we were sending men into combat with two weeks worth of training, and a day on the rifle range. The WW2 veterans from the early/mid war had months to even years of training and preparation, but months before D-Day they dropped the standards on training. I'm curious if they dropped the stranders for qualification too?

[@spazemfathemcazemmeleggymi272]

Its always getting worse, if you think about it the average man from 1944 would probably be more competent in war then the average man in 1966

[@scottgomez6244]

This makes me wonder about our recent wars. I knew a few "ASVAB waiver" Marines I served with during my time in USMC infantry back in 2005-2009. Even then, I couldn't help but wonder if it was normal or was it because bodies were needed to fill a quota...saddens me deeply.

[@Netjajev]

I'm from a very small rural town in Sweden, when I was a child I talked to an older man in the store when my dad grabbed me and walk away saying "He's a draft dodger from the states, don't talk to him". He is known as "the dodger" and still today noone talks to him.

[@JP-il2wf]

Seems very childish not to talk with him..

[@spazemfathemcazemmeleggymi272]

@@JP-il2wf seems very childish to run away from serving your country, as Jocko said in the video, if your going to take a stand you should face the consequences for your opinion, if you refuse a draft you should be willing to do jail time for that.

[@JP-il2wf]

@@spazemfathemcazemmeleggymi272 serving your country.. yeah.. depends on the reasons for the service. The war in Vietnam had nothing to do with serving America. Nor has so many pointless wars waged by corrupt politicians, paid by the military industry. We don't know if that guy in the small Swedish village was actually a dodger. Small villages are known for their mislead rumors. And if he was, we don't know his reasons. Point being; not every war has been for a noble service for country.

[@spazemfathemcazemmeleggymi272]

@@JP-il2wf if your questioning the village's intel then yeah, maybe he wasn't a draft dodger, but that's not something we will ever know, if your saying people who fled from service are justified then you are completely wrong. Again in the video plenty of alternatives were discussed, and there are plenty of ways to avoid if not confront military corruption.

[@JP-il2wf]

@@spazemfathemcazemmeleggymi272 exactly; we don't know. That's why it might've been a good idea to talk with the guy instead of believing rumors. Yeah he could've lied, but it doesn't hurt to talk with people. Ever heard Jocko mention that? It has been months since I listened this episode, so I don't recall the details what they discussed back then. But the main point still is; going Vietnam didn't have anything to do with serving America, hence refusing draft was fine. Comparing to soviets attacking Finland 1939 -- refusing to fight wasn't ok. Just like Ukraine needs serving their country. But Iraq and Afghanistan weren't a real threat to America. So going there didn't serve America. They mainly created more terrorists. It could have served the locals, but America fucked it up.

[@therocinante3443]

I worked for a man who served with a few of these low IQ people. He said they were more dangerous to have around than not have around. Some didn't understand that they were in danger while in a fire fight, which is bad for obvious reasons.. The way he explained it was heartbreaking.

[@therocinante3443]

Basically everything you're saying here is exactly how my old boss described his "special buddy" who he used to have to do everything for. I honestly thought he was exaggerating all these years.

[@theundergroundlairofthesqu9261]

@@therocinante3443 Has anybody brought up that Private Pyle & Joker in Full Metal Jacket had this kind of relationship? Pyle wasn't cut out for the job.

[@DemetriPanici]

*“As we waste time, time is wasting us - Ryan Holiday*

[@edmeds1336]

Tilt got spider parks!!!! Sogcast is the best podcast on KZbin. These men were built different. It's hard to comprehend. I've been waiting for SPIDER!!!!! 🕷

[@jamesporter1123]

@Ed Meds where did you here about Tilt and Spyder Parks, what's your source please

[@e.e.8589]

In 2007 I wanted to join the military and they rejected me because of my "bad back/spine". Since then, I have been a prison guard, an active LEO and competed in sambo tournaments. I never had problems with my back. Those medical rules are just strange, also in europe.

[@RD-jr8nv]

Fair play to Jocko and Echo for speaking on the dark sides of the military too,

[@troyblackford-dowell1178]

Currently individuals with Autism, even those that were formerly known as Aspergers, are not eligible for enlistment in the Military. Yet, they are still required to sign up for Selective Service, to be available for the draft if needed. Calling on them will happen again, we just haven't engaged in a substantial enough conflict yet.

[@dannycalder1638]

Jocko is extra amped today. I like it. Must be the "GO". Great episode

[@JR-ju3kj]

I could see he was getting really angry and getting really fired up over this. For someone like Jocko,I can see how he would view draft-dodgers that way,too.If the military is just not for you,if you're a conscientious objector,if you don't believe in war and if you're a pacifist,that's different from being a coward who just hides and avoids military service.

[@geckotoe]

This is wild. It's almost hard to wrap your head around the fact that this actually happened and isn't made up.

[@KC-nd7nt]

Love your iron character and hard will. Thx for being you brother

[@Bathaling]

David Goggins would be a real gem for the podcast if you would have him and do a Jocko podcast with him

[@charlesrump5771]

I think there's ego involved on Jocko's side. I think he feels like David disrespected the Seal community by calling himself a Seal.

[@OpnDoarPlcy]

@@charlesrump5771 Goggins earned his Trident. He's a SEAL.

[@Bathaling]

I 100% agree , but look they both are retired now. (I'd say Jocko will never be fully detached from the teams like Goggins kinda is) if they were to put that aside and just talk about the dichotomy in their respective mindsets growing up in the teams it would just be fantastic! Orrrr Goggins would walk out haha. They exchanged tweets and both were down a couple years ago. I don't know I just hope it happens!!

[@thomasluck5955]

@@charlesrump5771 isn’t he a seal though

[@osmanbey8796]

@@thomasluck5955 Yes he was, that guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about

[@hardtopindown7781]

Listening to this, I get the feeling Jocko is talking to a particular group, without actually identifying said group. Its likely that group, listened for..maybe 30 minutes, bailed, disparaging the messenger. Thanks Jocko, Echo..

[@peytonelmer5674]

Interesting pov. You very well could be onto something.

[@jeremyhelms8313]

Are you referring to inner city kids less fortunate( I’m also referring to a particular group) and it is sad

[@hardtopindown7781]

@@jeremyhelms8313 no...I'm talking about those that would use power to strengthen 'their' particular needs at the cost of those who can afford it least. You say inner city kids, I say ANYONE who is willing to strive instead of seeking an easier path. Given a goal, I tend to seek ways to achieve that goal. You? By the way, virtue signaling accomplishes little....

[@Boxscot49]

It was amazing to see Jocko basically change his own opinion of the draft dodgers after considering how wrong so many things were really reflects what kind of man he really is. I get he still hates the idea but being able to take a step back and realize that theres more to be learned and understood from it should immediately grant anyones respect

[@SocketSilver]

I dislike Muhammad Ali for a long time. I served 99-03. Everyone liked Ali but I didn’t because he draft dodge. After I watched the PBS documentary and it totally changed my view about him.

[@Malouco]

Its 3am and I woke up thinking of the Jocko!!!! BEAT U THIS TIME TOMA 🕺

[@Malouco]

But ima go back to bed now

[@charlesbukowski9836]

McNamara also refused to let Colt make 30 rounders due to 'cost' I am sure that killed a lot of people

[@listener523]

My dad had a fun one about the "sign up to avoid the draft" line. Navy recruiters would say, "Hey why not a medical MOS? Get in a hospital they'll even have nurses...." You know where the marines get their medics right?

[@E3Cooper]

Corpsman from the NAVY

[@geronimo2485]

Great podcast Vietnam and project 💯K are one of those lessons from history that needs to be learned so history doesn’t repeat!!!!!

[@TRockett55IRISH]

Sat down with my father a Canadian USMC Vietnam veteran who served two tours from 67-69 in the 1st Marine Division. We watched this episode together . I served myself and deployed multiple times this was a hard listen at times esp for my father.

[@garydaly]

I learned about McNamara from from Errol Morris documentary ‘The Fog of War’ and I did find his intelligence and expressive personality charismatic and tried to understand what he was trying to do during the Vietnam War, however to hear this story that this well educated and powerful individual had the idea of conscripting men who should not have been taken and placed into the army and if he was fully aware of this it’s just totally immoral and foul. Note: I volunteered to join the army and became a medic and served in Iraq.

[@charlesbukowski9836]

He was the epitome of that fact that IQ alone is not enough... you need common sense and practical experience.. or be able to at least listen to that... he also blocked the 30 round magazine that Colt wanted to issue early... was not as cost effective as a 20

[@theundergroundlairofthesqu9261]

@@charlesbukowski9836 30 round mags weren't that reliable at first, were they? So maybe they dodged that, er, extra problem with the early M-16?

[@droolinghalfling8898]

The "I bet everyone thinks the way I think" thing is called the false consensus effect.

[@somethinsomethin7243]

When Jocko was talking about the draft I thought "we spent so much time talking about the hearts and minds" and we meant the enemy. If the American people aren't willing to go to war, maybe we shouldn't. Maybe it should be the hearts and minds of our people we should win.

[@marvin60000]

We should have never gone to Vietnam

[@guilty_mulburry5903]

I remember hearing there was serious consideration of it being reimplemented when manpower got tight during the Iraq war

[@bencancio914]

My Uncle Fought In Vietnam..He Didn't Complain When He Was Drafted He Just Went .. In Fact He Rescued Some Of His Platoon Members He Got A Medal For It ... I Saw The Newspaper Clipping

[@davidoftheforest]

Did He Use Capital Letters Incorrectly Aswell?

[@sirg-had8821]

1:03:42 Imagine that... Cheney was all about war when he was young enough to have served in one, yet still managed to skate out of it.

[@scottski02]

And looks like his daughter is ready to carry on the family tradition

[@josephfdunphymba3241]

This episode is also relevant in the era of Fauchi and the vaccine mandates, in the military, health care, and the general population

[@GruntProof]

I'm sorry to break the news but many of us GWOT vets were also forced into it. Single mother homes, no future, being demonized for being a "toxic" man....what TF else were we supposed to do? It was a financial and social draft for us.

[@russelllong3561]

Thank you for putting this out. As a leader in the business world it is hard going through the staffing shortage we are currently facing. The idea has been floated to reduce standards, and this emphasis why we can't do this.

[@escapedfromnewyork]

The AFQT is part of the scoring of the ASVAB test. I took the ASVAB in high school and was told I didn't need to take it when I enlisted in the Navy. Then I get a call from my recruiter at like 530am telling me mine was too old and I needed to do it again . I had scored very well the first time, but here I was having these jokers pick me up in a van before 7 am to do it again. I recall finding that I did even better, but it wasn't until a few years ago looking through my old crap that I saw I scored a 97 on the AFQT. The highest you can score is a 99. I was always a fairly bright kid who was lazy AF and got crap grades in HS. It was the Navy that straightened me out. Went to college and was an A student after that. I couldn't wait to get out, but it was the best thing I ever did

[@lucienderthel338]

jocko started reading questions and echo looked at him for a split second like he thought he was supposed to answer it was great

[@drfye]

I first heard about this through a history KZbin channel called the Front. He did a very interesting video on it.

[@DemetriPanici]

*"If you fell down yesterday, stand up today." - H. G. Wells*

[@seanmoon7095]

Hack supported the draft in About Face. I could be wrong, and I don't have my copy close at hand, but I could have sworn Hack argued in About Face that the draft was important because it kept the Army honest, and it was important to have regular civilian style perspectives WITHIN the military, ESPECIALLY during times of war. I might be confusing David Hackworth's book About Face with Mathew Brennan's book Brennan's War, but I'm pretty sure both argued the draft was important to hold the military accountable. I would go so far as to argue: if you are not willing to institute compulsitory military service... it's probably a REALLY good sign you shouldn't be getting involved in that war to begin with.

[@davidtangitau3771]

I’m barely 12 minutes in and gupton is already killing me 😭🤣

[@HunterCihal]

I simply don't understand why these men weren't used as a rear echelon labor force exclusively. But of course the ignorance of the Vietnam era leadership wouldn't have the time for something as simple as that.

[@Eng_Simoes]

Learned this by Dr. J.B. Peterson : if you want to learn somebody intentions look at the consequences of their actions.

[@Mr-E.]

@@Eng_Simoes I will need to ruminate on that quote for a day or two. I have always felt the opposite (that intentions can lead to unintended consequences). Examples would be: A nagging parent who wants their kid to succeed, but their nagging pushes the kid away and they do the opposite. Giving a homeless person $5 with good intentions, but that only enables them to further drink or acquire drugs. Telling the truth about something, but the truth lead to animosity as a consequence, etc.

[@Eng_Simoes]

@@Mr-E. that quote applies to behavior patterns, for instance, you know for a fact that every penny you give somebody goes to drugs, and yet you keep giving money

[@Mr-E.]

@@Eng_Simoes Aah yes, I understand the quote now and I agree with that.

[@nemesisbreakz]

They found a loophole with the log segments 😆

[@dantes123100]

Very enjoyable overview of the book, thank you.

[@TheNubadak]

Thak you Terry for sharing this, your wonderful. All generations are wonderful Love those who laugh, care for those u know how.

[@cward43023]

Thanks for sharing this. I’ve never heard of Project 100k, and it’s definitely shocking.