The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau | EP 204

[@Mj-pf6by]

Beautiful discussion... As a Muslim, I am happy Christian thought is becoming more mainstream, and will hopefully become established in the West again as a bulwark against the unfortunate absence of meaning and a connection to the divine. Everyone is better off with a transcendent aim!

[@11antun]

Well, i pray with you. A chatolic Women! Thank you!

[@tourist1313]

Amen. This is a beautiful sentiment.

[@tatsumakisempyukaku]

Well said

[@michaelterrell5061]

Beautifully put.

[@masterofnone6620]

Very well said.

[@MrsYasha1984]

Bishop Baron mentioned that Jordan pulls a lot of people back to the bible, back to christianity. That happened to me. It took me some time, but I'm proud to say that after years of fighting against the wisdom in the bible, I've found my way cautiously back to the catholic church. That would not have happened this way without Jordans lectures. And to my delight I must say, our community and pastor are amazing. I still have ways to go to heal myself, but I'm certain I'll find healing in church. So thank you Jordan! Thank you very much!

[@publiusovidius7386]

So enjoy the antigay bigotry and misogyny of the Church. Really poisonous crap that isn't real.

[@Abigailwark]

Same!!!

[@debras3806]

Welcome Manuela, may your pursuit of knowing Jesus proceed steadily! Remember it is Him, whether found in the Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant Church... Who is the goal, and nothing other.

[@xamunchkin]

@@publiusovidius7386 hehe get a life dude

[@galadine12]

@@publiusovidius7386 I'm not catholic, but between your post and his, I'm guessing he's not the one with the problem.

[@Hoi4o]

I was raised in an orthodox home, but since my teens to my 30s I was a convinced atheist. Jordan Peterson through his biblical lectures helped me understand christianity in a way that no one else could. They were the bridge between science and theology that I needed in order to actually begin understanding faith and the deep and meaningful connection between humans and God. Of course, they weren't the only thing that brought me back to faith, but they were one of the key elements that transformed my understanding and my belief system. I am now a practicing orthodox christian and I can only express my gratitude for that to doctor Peterson. God bless you and your whole family!

[@justanothernick3984]

I also do not consider myself an atheist anymore. That isn't because there is a God or anything of that description, but people use mind tricks and self deceptions to find all kinds of meaning and happiness. Even though they are mere tricks, they need to be felt as real in order to have the desired effect and that displays itself through actions all across the world with real impact. So there isn't anything supernatural but people acting in that way is pretty much the same as real and I think the only way to experience the reality I am experiencing, is through the interconnectedness between people. So no God but still not atheist.

[@liquidusblue]

Not quite the same but similar to you. I used to be a fundamentalist atheist. Probably guilty of the "Scientism" they talked about. I still don't really believe in God. But I these days I see the good religions and their believers do and accept there is so more to the human experience than plain science.

[@MyselfTheodore]

I relate to this.

[@hristijankjosevski]

Same here orthodox, and I think that drifting or pulling out of the faith is induced by popular anti-God culture emerging in the west of we're all influenced by.

[@MW-ic7lr]

Jung and Peterson helped me feel connected to something spiritual. I was a hardcore atheist for many years. I still don't believe God exists. But I'm open to it.

[@danielcanales2811]

I’m 80 years old. I recall, years ago, a cartoon in a major magazine that showed a group of scientists reaching the summit of the mountain of knowledge only to find a group of mystics already there sitting by a campfire.

[@BODSTREAM]

Love this

[@prettycatlick4373]

It's a Robert Jastrow quote. One of my favorites: For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

“The scientist and philosopher want to learn what the farmer and fisherman already know.” I read that in a Louis L’amour western when I was about 13…and have never forgotten it.

[@XOXO-mb2vh]

So what is the lesson>

[@daisyviluck7932]

They’d never publish that today

[@Randaed]

I feel like this needs to happen about a thousand more times. This group could stand to talk weekly.

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

Me too!!!!

[@NitwitMN]

I wrote essentially the same proposal about 2.5 hours after you did. Reminded again that I’m not an original thinker. Of course you’re correct.

[@alaricgoldkuhl155]

Nah dude. You can have too much of a good thing. Maybe once every month or two. People make the same mistake with psychedelics when they experience them for the first time. "That was awesome! Let's do it again real soon!" When you touch the depths of meaning, going back to the same well too often cheapens it, makes it less special and remarkable. These great minds need to go away and let this stuff percolate awhile and come back with renewed energy and perspective. Maybe some one-on-ones between them to unpack stuff might be helpful, but if they come back and do this again too soon, you'll likely find them rehashing the same points until they are beating a dead horse. The value in such deep insights and discussions is that they are rare and therefore precious and sacred. Speaking for myself, I have enough to digest and unpack to last me for a good few months. Maybe wait a week and watch it again and see if you pick up something new. I understand your enthusiasm (can hardly wait for the next one myself), but it's a trap I've fallen into before, and my instinct here is to want to protect this most valuable source of profundity.

[@NitwitMN]

@@alaricgoldkuhl155 Like many things, serving size and frequency are key. Nutrition value is difficult to dispute, however. Good for those who partake

[@Randaed]

@@alaricgoldkuhl155 I'd be quite content with bi-yearly, but honestly, I just hope they do it again someday.

[@John.Christopher]

Bishop Barron is leagues ahead in both coherency and bringing structure to abstraction in this conversation. Master communicator. People really ought to listen to him more.

[@margokupelian344]

I hope the other participants are not offended by your comment. It’s kind of subtle to be so straightforward about your thoughts on this discussion. I have expressed my praise and admiration for Bishop Barron every time I listen to him, and I listen to him a lot, but I would be more careful in my assessment when others are involved. I LOVE this group!

[@Abel-ec6ch]

​@@margokupelian344 Yours is probably the most civil and gentle KZbin comment-reply that I've ever seen, correcting someone for their bad manners, or at least suggesting greater subtly. This is a unicorn.

[@EnavSounds]

He is great. He brought me back to Catholicism with his excellent explanation during a conversation he had with Alex O'Connor. He was explaining the concept of Jesus Victor and made so much sense

[@charlescoult]

15:00 - When Bishop Barron says, "Good to be with all of you", as a habituated Catholic, I couldn't help but feel the need to say, "and also with you." XD

[@pieteytrenton2747]

We lift him up to the most highest

[@xDELFYonceagain]

And with your spirit!

[@timanderson6896]

Cool bro

[@charlescoult]

@Nick Williams I was just poking fun at how habituated I had become to certain customs of Catholicism. I wasn't making any comment on my beliefs whatsoever. That said, I think religion helps to provide a framework for understanding those things which we are demonstrably true but (currently) unprovable. Correct me if I misunderstood your comment.

[@charlescoult]

@Nick Williams demonstrable doesn't necessarily mean 'provable'. It means it's 'able to be demonstrated'. Correlation vs causation. It can be demonstrated that living life according to certain principles leads to a certain result, however it can't, currently, be proven that it does. And if we're being nit picky about semantics, you meant to say 'accept' in your first comment, not 'except'.

[@johnbrion4565]

For years I suffered from horrible anxiety on a daily basis to the point where I was having panic attacks at work breaking out in sweats at my desk. I was questioning the point and purpose of my life. My psychologist said I needed to ground myself in something. This didn’t make sense to me as how could I find solid ground in the words of another man or woman. Then I came to find God first through the writings of Aquinas Augustine and other church fathers. Then through the videos of people like bishop Barron which led me to the letters of Paul then the Gospels. And finally I figured out what the psychologist meant. Even though I don’t think he expected me to ground myself in God as he wasn’t religious. My anxiety attacks stopped and my depression and despair greatly improved. I’m sure some atheists would argue I am weak and taking the opiate of the masses. But maybe there’s something to be said about the power of turning toward a higher power. And this is coming from someone who turned toward Dawkins and hitchens and Harris before turning to God so I know most the arguments against religion. Ultimately for me it came down to believing that if there truly is ultimate meaning it is found in love. And then reading the Bible it’s right there, God is love, infinite unconditional self sacrificial love. Well it all made sense. I’m thankful for people like Bishop Barron and now Jordan Peterson who helped me and I know are helping many others in their journey through life. Thank you and God bless.

[@clairejagels9598]

Feeling safe in the loving arms of God is the best truest and most long lasting antitode to anxiety. I know because I’ve tried the other things too. Being God’s child is not weak, it’s how he designed us!

[@ysf-d9i]

how is god love if he is letting all of these bad things happen? I wouldn't say you're "weak", but I do think you're escaping. I definitely believe that there's some higher purpose/meaning than the four horsemen of arrogance; their arguments essentially amount to "I'm very smart, so if even I can't conceptually prove the existence of objective morality then it must not exist". It's very much akin to someone 5000 years ago saying bacteria must not exist because I can't see it and you have no way to show me they exist. It's the arrogance of belief in our rationality and intelligence and that nothing must be beyond its bounds.

[@johnbrion4565]

@@ysf-d9i if there is life after death then the bad things that we see happen really are of no significance if we are destined for eternal glory. God allows bad to happen sometimes so a greater good can come about. I wouldn’t call it escaping. I’d call it being aware that either there is no meaning at all or there is ultimate meaning. And I choose to have faith that there is a loving God based on the evidence. It can’t be proved either way but it’s like Pascal’s wager, believing could mean infinite glory and if I’m wrong well I’m in the same place as the non believers at the end anyways. But there have been many intelligent people who have believed throughout the ages and I don’t think they are escaping. I think they just see evidence for God and choose to have faith.

[@ysf-d9i]

@@johnbrion4565 the idea that you need bad to exist for some greater good is silly if god is all powerful. God could have created it so that the concept of bad doesn't exist at all. You're escaping not because you choose to believe in meaning; like I said, I do too. But you've chosen to escape to an answer that is obviously logically false. Like meaning is hard, searching for it is an arduous task that may cause huge amounts of depression and despair; I have suffered through that and am still suffering through it. But because it is literally the only thing that matters, I will continue to suffer through it til the end of my life and I'm not going to reach a false conclusion just to stop suffering.

[@ysf-d9i]

@@johnbrion4565 Also the choices aren't a binary of nihilism and christianity. Like, there are thousands of religions out there. Why christianity? Why does the answer have to already exist in human knowledge? Can't it be something we haven't discovered yet?

[@benjamin-senpai9564]

One of the best talks with guests on this channel! This, "The 4 horsemen of meaning" should be it's own podcast, which comes out every 3 or 4 mounths.

[@TheReunizer]

agree

[@ikennaoparandu9029]

Totally agree

[@Lerian_V]

Yes!

[@renaud_gagne]

Yup, this should keep happening. To hell with the "tours" to sell books ;-)

[@shakbhaji]

I’d love to see a meeting of the remaining 3 original horsemen with these 4 and watch that conversation. Perhaps too many people for a rich exchange of ideas in proper depth.

[@ianbrown7913]

This conversation with these four gentlemen is basically my Super Bowl 😂 I’m hyped!

[@finneganmcbride6224]

Couldn’t relate more 😂

[@douglascummins4213]

Same!

[@jordylamslag5903]

Same!

[@martinpaveymusic309]

Amen to this. 🙏 Was so fabulous!

[@michael7144]

Yep!

[@tanyadecastella4770]

As a Catholic convert from fundamentalist Christian upbringing, to becoming a beginner Iconographer / secondary teacher of the history of Christian Art and a mother of ten with seven boys who brought me to Jordan Peterson, this episode touched me on every level. Thank-you

[@mitchcohn1800]

Mind blowing!! Great input from all !!because of Bishop Barron 7 years ago I became a Catholic from being Jewish 🙏

[@berwynsigns4115]

Glory be to Jesus Christ.

[@mk05022]

Why?

[@bobmcswigan6415]

Praise God for Bishop Barron. He's helped me to get back into my Catholic faith.

[@intoxicatedwithfear8363]

What he molest you..

[@PaulVanderKlay]

The Protestant reformation happened for a reason. The Protest must end, and is ending, but it's helpful to see the role it has played for all parties concerned.

[@sillygoose4472]

Hey Paul, do you have a video about what the Protest is? Like a good introduction for someone who has no clue what it is? Asking for a friend 🤣

[@CesarScur]

The Church is anxious to have you back integrally. 😍

[@DerekJFiedler]

Would be helpful to include you in one of these group talks.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

Not forgetting the protests about the protests....

[@MrSofuskroghlarsen]

Where in the lecture do they talk about the protestant reformation? :)

[@May-B-Later]

Jonathan is my fav. He’s always smiling.

[@martinliehs2513]

He exudes such positive energy, regardless of the topic.

[@Illlium]

@@martinliehs2513 I honestly wish I could be like that guy.

[@brien1513]

I like when he chuckles

[@catholic_based534]

And laughing. Amazing guy man.

[@michaelraney]

Thank you Bishop Barron for being a faithful representative of the Church!

[@ABB14-11]

yassss!

[@phillipnecessary6851]

Amen, a gem

[@weproject3125]

Wonderful! Thanks to all, especially Bishop Barron for representing the Catholic community as a true leader. 🙏🏼

[@Renigade16]

This is the kinda conversation that make me want to educate myself more, just so I can keep up with what's being said.

[@Michalfx]

You won't regret the journey of doing so :D It'll only add depth and from that a beauty to your life and your appreciation of it

[@zanec9108]

Check out Jonathan Pageaus video Jordan Peterson re-posted. He does a great job of setting up this particular podcast.

[@bertvsrob]

get your hands on a first year philosophy reading list if you can

[@KJ-lb4tj]

@@Michalfx or depression or an existential crisis....

[@Michalfx]

@@KJ-lb4tj Hahaha you’re not wrong. Although I found that to only be temporary for me. It was almost a cleansing out of previous held ideas beliefs that stood on weak foundations in the real world. It revealed to me that the life and journey I thought I should be pursuing was one devoid of meaning and a connection to what was truly real. whilst it showed the bleak reality around me it consequently showed me where to go or look to learn more. Almost like seeing a light house in dark stormy seas. And since then I must say life has rearranged itself that even struggles and anxieties don’t throw me back into that dark place. I realise I’m talking in metaphors but it is really hard to summaries 2-3 years of events any other way 😅

[@chucksdad]

Bishop Barron's acknowledgement that the modern Catholic seminaries, architecture and pandering to the world view has led to a real void in connecting man to God was a mea culpa I wish the whole Church would to see. Jonathan Pageau has opened my eyes to the Orthodox. I pray for a reunification of the Apostolic Churches which are separated by so little

[@Lerian_V]

I truly believed a unification would have happened if Benedict XVI is still in charge.

[@G-MIP]

@@Lerian_V Accept that it didn’t happen under Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI- it is God’s will that he was replaced by Pope Francis.

[@bryant475]

Many Catholics are now becoming born again Christians, and it's great to see. It's about a real relationship with Jesus, and not merely religion!

[@drdonnad]

There are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches - Orthodox by tradition, of various rites, yet in communion withe the Bishop of Rome. Each of these Churches their own canon law and hierarchy. The largest of these Sui Uris Churches is the UkrainianGreco Catholic Church - which is not just for Ukrainians (the Church in Ukraine distinguishes itself from the Roman Catholic and thus the name translation). It’s liturgical tradition is in the Byzantine rite and very Orthodox in living the teachings of the early church fathers. Yet, the UGCC is Catholic. It is an example of unity in the one holy catholic and apostolic church. If there is one near you, encourage going to check it out. There are also monasteries in the USA (not sure about Canada) that can be visited. Keep praying for full communion in the Church (katholique = whole).

[@michellestamper5527]

And it seems many pagan societies aren't fairing much better for similar reasons. Honestly many religious and spiritual organizations are drowning in the massive influx of people joining and this push to betray one's convictions is really strong.

[@mariog1490]

Bishop Barron is so underrated. I’ve been a fan of Jordan for awhile, specifically on pragmatism; but Bishop blows me out of the water every time.

[@jeffw7382]

He gets so much hate from a lot of tradcaths, but I love what he's doing.

[@mariog1490]

@@jeffw7382 yeah. I thought he was especially good last podcast arguing against the will-to-power with the will seeking God.

[@zi8gzag]

Love the comment + pfp combo hahahah

[@rushthezeppelin]

@@jeffw7382 us trads don't hate him. I mean I'm a recent concert and he did play a role in helping me through RCIA for which I'm thankful. He's solid on a lot of things. That whole dare we hope thing is not good though. Also the catholicism is the privileged way thing. He also has some other modernist tendencies although is not near as bad as others. Most of us just want to see him use the wonderful platform to teach the Catholic faith more boldly. Trying to appease the world does not really draw in converts like his generation of bishops thinks it does. The Tradition is something so beautiful and a refuge from the modern world that it's a travesty to water it down. Bishops Strickland, Schneider and Burke are awesome prelates to follow that don't shy away from speaking hard truth.

[@mariog1490]

@@zi8gzag 😂 it was a good album.

[@candyholyoak]

Loved this conversation, as with all of yours, Dr. Peterson. I can be one more example of someone who has had a transformative and transcendent experience through prayer and meditation without drugs. I have never taken any drugs or alcohol in my life, except what has ever been prescribed by doctors. When I was pregnant with my second child, I had suffered from depression and anxiety for the six prior years. I did as much inner work as I could to try and rid myself of this torment. I journaled, I found tapping/EFT. One of the last things I learned was meditation. Although I was a novice in it, there was one day when I prayed and meditated very intently when I felt myself slipping into the depression ‘hole’ again. The only way I can describe what unfolded in my mind during this meditative prayer was a vision - it was like a movie on a screen that gave me different perspective of my experience. The content of the vision was something I have never conceived of before. I have no idea where the concepts came from, but the meaning was definitely rational, and gave me an entirely new perspective (I won’t go into details here). In the vision I was told that my depression was healed and the only way I would fall into depression from that point on is if I chose to. Well my second son that I was pregnant with at the time is now 13 years old and I can say that the experience has held true. I have never experienced depression once since that moment. It just completely vanished. And it hasn’t been until hearing some of your and other’s podcast more recently that describe the use of psychedelics to attain similar experiences, that I realized that maybe what happened to me was like what happens to those who undergo a psychedelic experience. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience of a life-transforming experience without the use of drugs, only prayer/meditation. Thank you for sharing your work and thoughts and introducing me to such amazing guests as well. You all have changed my life!

[@JordanBPeterson]

Thanks for this. Very interesting.

[@evillano]

Indeed, very interesting! thank you for sharing and you got a reply from the doc himself!

[@J.Mulleno]

Greetings, Your description of your anxiety and your transformative experience was exciting to me. I have had anxiety with intensity for years. I could not take tranquilizers in a while because I have been getting treatment for pain.. Despite all this, I had something spiritual that happened about a couple of years back. It caused me a real shift in how to view anxiety.. That perhaps some of the anxiety was actually something else that might be helpful to me.. It is hard to share here, and I am still meditating on it. I do think that it is more now than a "hyped state of intensity". I think it has spiritual meaning, value... I still need to continue to understand, and meditate on this.. I hope you work out the meaning it has for you, and I wish you the best with yours too. (Smile) Take care. 🖖⚘🌿

[@lornadoone8887]

I can relate to this experience somewhat. I reached a point of spiritual urgency and sense of need such that I reached out to God (as a Christian in an Evangelical context) with every fiber of my mind and being with the crux of my question (having to do with God in His nature as Love). The response was a stunning instantaneous insight that was outside any concept I had ever encountered before. It rocked my world. It led eventually to my entering the Orthodox Church where I had discovered this concept in an essay entitled “The River of Fire” by Alexandre Kalomiros, and further based in insights like those of St. Isaac the Syrian. I think this may be an instance of the synergy of the “emergent” (my need) meeting “emanation” (insight from above) in John V’s terms that is where transformation occurs.

[@samanthaduggan9002]

The sciences "ever more precise accounts of the cave" - love this quote from Bishop Barron.

[@easyemu1511]

That for sure is a mouthful and worth thinking about.

[@erravi]

That’s so amazing

[@dannymaciejewski]

I missed what the ”cave” signifies. Can someone please explain?

[@samanthaduggan9002]

@@dannymaciejewski With apologies to anyone who could do this much better to me....it refers to Plato's cave. Plato described physical reality in the world as "the cave" but believed outside the cave, in the world of Forms, was where true reality lay. You might call it this life and eternity. Science can only describe material existence and thus misses the greater truth.

[@Solo_Dohlo]

@@dannymaciejewski It's a classical story where these men live in a cave for all of their life having never seen the outside world and believe the cave is the world. Eventually one of the men leaves the cave and discovers there is a whole world outside of the cave. So in the case of the lecture I assume it's inferring that the sciences understanding of our world (Earth and outer space) is still vastly limited.

[@garrettvandenberg2031]

Can we please get a round two of this? This is like my favorite thing to happen on this channel. Feels like the council of elders meeting, or like in lord of the rings were Gandolf and Saruman and Galadriel and Elrond meet together to discuss the state of things. What a fun time

[@MrTTnTT]

I just hope none of them is going to turn out to be Saruman... :P

[@lawdogattorneyatlaw4886]

@Back to the Future 2021 sounds like a you problem

[@anchy0301]

Agreed!

[@Sopranohooper]

Speaking of wizards, is he *ever* gonna interview John Michael Greer?

[@stevecrawford6792]

This conversation may become an epoch for the recovery of meaning in the West. Thank you all.

[@teenanguyen217]

If meaning can be lost, than it is not really meaning. It is merely corruptible arbitrarity that is impermanent.

[@youssefsammouh501]

@@teenanguyen217 love seeing people typing crap like this on youtube hahahah

[@mafia461]

@@youssefsammouh501 😆 lol 99% of people don't even speak nor write this way. We should coin this phenomenon "The Jordan Effect". How's that for a cognitive experience😄

[@erlendurk]

What on earth does that mean? Organized religion has been the number one source of misinformation, cruelty and corruption over the centuries. Please explain, sounds like nonsense to me.

[@anilmethipara]

Facts

[@bestgameralive1]

Its truly a blessing to see color in Jordan's face, I've been worried and praying for his recovery and this video has only made me absolutely ecstatic. Bless you four

[@sirvaliantvillianjr5403]

Well it could be deep fake? Even real time 5g

[@Milestonemonger]

No psychedelics involved, I had an emotional religious experience last month while visiting a 600 year old church in Romania. For an atheist, this took me completely by surprise. This experience changed me.

[@christiangadfly24]

It's time people admitted that there is nothing "intelligent" about mocking metaphysics. So glad these conversations are happening.

[@paulfrederick1568]

Listen more

[@merlepatterson]

There is also no "Ignorance" for paying only cursory or little attention to metaphysics as well.

[@lancewalker2595]

That depends. It was pretty goddamn intelligent the way Nietzsche did it.

[@calummacritchie7840]

Metaphysics alongside logic, morality, Aesthetic Judgement and truth are all immaterial realities that cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelled or heard but they are essential to our reality.

[@lancewalker2595]

@@calummacritchie7840 Metaphysics is the language of imagination, it cannot be formalized.

[@RedBird77]

These discussions are like healthy food for the soul. Enjoy them so much. Thanks to all for a fantastic discussion.

[@tatsumakisempyukaku]

Jesus said: “man should I not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” Just as the good foods we eat become a part of us and so capacitate our bodies, so too do the ideas that fill our ears and reach our minds become a part of us. Be careful of what you ingest.

[@szabolcshursan761]

It's astonishing how much authority has Barron as a Bishop of the Church in these conversations. When he speaks, you can feel the weight of his words and the deep silence and attention from the other three, as they would be his disciples. Fantastic

[@brittclausson3221]

It's not the authority of the Church. It is a great mind well schooled in the Church's tradition of philisophy and theology

[@brycebensing]

@@brittclausson3221 as a Bishop, he has the fullness of the sacrament of holy orders, responsible for teaching doctrine, governing Catholics in his jurisdiction, sanctifying the World and representing the Church. He does speak with the authority of the Church. As a bishop he is considered a direct spiritual descendant of the apostles through the unbroken laying of hands of the Apostolic Succession.

[@JeremyStMartin]

It is the grace of Holy Orders at work. People don't know about that. The Church has grace.

[@ms.leclaire9017]

The respect they all shared is beautiful to witness!

[@AaronDAntoni]

Bishop Barron, I believe that God used you to draw my heart back my first love. Thank you.

[@streamscounselling9501]

John Vervaeke statement " How is science related to meaning and truth?" I think he nailed it right there. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your brains in collectivity. Mind candy for me to ponder on.

[@donnmckee4973]

Science never once claimed to relate to meaning and truth. Its defined as the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. So when someone asks how science is related to meaning and truth they clearly don't know what science is.

[@chaplainstudent5689]

Science seeks truth. It may not always find it but is seeking it. If not, why qould anyone listen to them?

[@donnmckee4973]

@@chaplainstudent5689 the problem with the definition of truth is it has a couple different opinions: the quality or state of being true, what you might be talking about and a fact or belief that is accepted as true, which can be used by philosophy, religion, feelings, and prejudice. I think Oxford sums up scientific truth best. Scientific Truth is based on facts. Verified, reproducible facts are the bedrock of scientific truth. Each element of a theory corresponds to some part of nature and, in this sense, scientific theories describe nature. In a sense when science seeks truth it's really seeking verifier facts which is a higher standard compared to the common use of "truth". I understand it's just a use of words but plenty of scientist will be quick to make the distinction clear.

[@NitwitMN]

Discernment sometimes just arrives gloriously.

[@stvbrsn]

You don’t ponder on candy, silly. You eat it!

[@richarddimitrov6545]

That was a wonderful dialogue that left me very hopeful; "Science is not a map but a description of the terrain". Wow. I didn't want the talk to end. Great job!

[@joshmcminn5168]

@@jonde-cent4897 I'm really struggling to understand which of the observations in this talk you're perceiving to be 'imagined'.

[@joshmcminn5168]

@@jonde-cent4897 This is exactly the deductionist rhetoric that the entire podcast objects against. God isn't discussed as a contingent being that can be clarified by propositional arguments, but as a logical necessity that is presupposed by all Being and thought, and, as discussed, the Sciences in particular. John talks at length about acknowledging this presupposition, or set of presuppositions, that science depends and yet cannot in and of itself account for, as a feature of rationality itself. The Bible is that presupposition.

[@the2ndcoming135]

Helps with the whole exploration thing. Stuff I didn’t really look at way back when I started the journey😎

[@pela907]

Isn't this presupposition a result of the external environments effects on the cave. I suspect a cave may be a bad example because it creates an image of the external being very distant from the observable inside when they very much, are interconnected...take consciousness for example...I suspect the cave has a little hole that allows us to peek through, and so when it rains and the cave begins to fill with water, and small flashes if light show from this tiny hole, we can assume it's raining outside, and rightly so.

[@sonicman52]

@@jonde-cent4897 Even if you think something is “fictional”, doesn’t mean it’s “untrue”. There’s a difference between reason, and the postmodern, reductionist, materialist rationalism you’re displaying in this comment. You seek to tear down with nothing to replace it. There are deeper metaphysical and spiritual truths to life and the human condition, I truly hope you can realize that someday. Take care.

[@conornagle9528]

I've revisited this dialogue again for a second time now after listening in full to Jordan's Biblical series, John Vervaeke's Awakening From The Meaning Crisis lecture series, and listening to more of Jonathan and Bishop Barren's salient and impactful work. The gratitude could not be more Graciously given. All 4 of you have transformed and blessed my life and I hope to be of relevant service to those around. Participation and Love 🙏🏻

[@spencer1854]

Jesus, bless these men to understand what you mean for them to understand, and to share that wisdom with others. AMEN

[@the300XM8]

As a huge fan of all 4 of them, philosophy graduate, catholic interested in orthodox tradition and a Jung reader. This is a dream come true. Thank you God

[@erlendurk]

I would thank Jordan Peterson. At least give the video thumbs up. God had nothing to do with it..

[@TheClassicWorld]

@@erlendurk To be fair, he also thanks Jordan and most likely did give the video a thumbs up (at least, you cannot assume that he didn't)...

[@erlendurk]

@@TheClassicWorld fair point.

[@casandra0]

@@erlendurk Thank God for Jordan Peterson, who has brought these three men to talk together on his channel 👀

[@erlendurk]

@@casandra0 Good one and I agree :) I'm an atheist but also thankful for JP.

[@bretwells3610]

So a psychologist, psychiatrist, catholic bishop, and an orthodox Christian walk into a bar... stay tuned to what happens next!

[@americanmambi]

It was a fantastic time, roughly speaking...

[@americanmambi]

And they all saved the father from the belly of the whale 🐋🐋🐋

[@GetUnlabeled]

Lol, irl

[@Spiritual_Alchemy]

Hilarious comment hope they pin it 😂

[@niallmartin9063]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 brilliant

[@trentcoalson415]

When Bishop Barron said Aquinas called God “IPSUM ESSE”: “to be itself” I was absolutely floored. I think viewers would get more value from the podcast videos if it were always multicam view. I would have loved to see the looks on Jordan’s, John’s, and Jonathan’s faces when he dropped that line, but the video cut to the solo shot of Bishop Barron. There have been so many staggeringly meaningful moments on this podcast, it would be great to have those reaction shots. It is a rare moment in podcasts where the entire screen needs to be utilized for one party during a conversation.

[@cindyrobertson3798]

Agreed .I think Jordan P had a very sore throat as well.

[@josephtravers777]

'I AM' is His name

[@r.lizarraga693]

The notion of God being Being itself is a very ancient Christian belief that existed long before Aquinas. It's a basic tenant of Orthodox theology that Jonathan has talked about many times, so I don't think he would have been that surprised (though I'm sure he was happy to hear it mentioned!). For modern people in the West it might seem like a new idea, but it's a fairly common belief in Eastern Christianity.

[@xDELFYonceagain]

@@r.lizarraga693 Even older than that, the idea was articulated by the likes of Plato though Aquinas drew more from Aristotle’s ‘causes’.

[@trentcoalson415]

@@r.lizarraga693 That’s fascinating! I attended Christian evangelical and baptists church services all throughout my early life and had never encountered that idea stated so succinctly and explicitly. I’ve only heard and seen Jonathan through Jordan. Do you have a recommendation on where to begin with regard to Jonathan‘s work, or perhaps Eastern Christianity in general?

[@markdallaire278]

When I saw this video pop up on KZbin, my immediate reaction was "Woohoo!" I've been following JBP, Pageau, John Vervaeke and Paul VanderKlay since 2017. If I have this correctly, PVK brought Bishop Barron to John's attention by way of a video that was recently posted. Great to see these four deep thinkers, all with very different training, histories and perspectives engaged in dialogos. And imagine my surprise and pleasure when Bishop Barron brought Bernard Lonergan into the conversation. I had the good fortune to study Lonergan's "Insight" at Lonergan University College in Montreal in the winter of 1983. It answered so many questions that I had at the time, and changed my life. These four thinkers are now helping answer a new set of questions. We should all be grateful for their tenacity and courage in doing so.

[@markdallaire278]

And really looking forward to PVK's unpacking of what has been said. He has a true gift for helping me see what is true in what has been said, but also seeing what is sometimes left out or not fully recognized or acknowledged. And his deep pastoral experience always brings me back to compassion for the poor, broken and marginalized.

[@like.a.hairbrush6083]

I was only 20 minutes in and had to stop to "google" Lonergan (once I worked my way through a few guesses at the name based on Bishop Barron's quick mentions, haha). This Jesuit is new to me, but based on the Bishop's statements--and particularly on the quote he mentioned that knowing God results in an insatiable desire to to "know everything about everything", I had to find enough to get me started on who the man was and his ideas! I have enough for a beginning!

[@jakubpogran]

There was a question "Where to find the wisdom?".. I would say in the discussion of elders. Thank all of you for letting us to listen!

[@NunYaO]

AMEN! The world needs alot more of this! ((Even Christ would go to the Temple and LISTEN to Elders debate the Scriptures [e.g. the Educated and Wiser]

[@Lerian_V]

@@NunYaO Yes, scripture says he grew in wisdom.

[@twr0b]

Every time Jonathan smiles, he is experiencing revelation and falls into celebration. They go together.

[@46positivity]

One thing that stood out in particular in this episode was the seemingly effortless flow of the conversation from one participant to the next. They seemed to each speak for about the same amount of time, which is one of the things you hope for in these multi-guest episodes. Among his many other talents, Dr. Peterson is a very gifted interviewer.

[@celladoor_uk]

When I was a teenager, around 15, and still in high school, I remember repeatedly getting this intrusive thought. It kept telling me that although we lived in material abundance we were living in spiritual poverty. I think this conversation has really helped me to understand exactly what that voice was saying to me back then. Thank you for sharing this conversation with us.

[@thesapphire_standard7534]

Read Jesus' words to the Laodicean church in the book of Revelation (Rev. 3 14-22). Then I would appreciate if you comment what you thought.

[@celladoor_uk]

@@thesapphire_standard7534 I have read it and I found it incredibly interesting, as I find most words from the bible, but I honestly don't have much to offer. Maybe I have to think about it a little more. I appreciate you sending me the reference to this passage though. :)

[@bryant475]

@@celladoor_uk I'm confident that this was God reaching out to you! Please check out lectures by Dr. Frank Turek, Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. William Lane Craig for more about the evidence for why Christianity is True :)

[@cindyrobertson3798]

I too had a very early adult view of the value of life the serioseness of our contributions. I never got drunk or smoked po a a result my early revelation s I'm ur my experience was different than you but suicide of a friend in 9 th grade ha a profund afect. God bless you in your life quest.

[@celladoor_uk]

@@cindyrobertson3798 I smoked, drank, did drugs. I still smoke weed every day but I have been moving away from pretty much all other substances. I think, eventually, I won't smoke weed either. I am still not sure if god cares about these things are not, I know he just wants me to live truthfully, I'm still figuring out what that looks like. I don't want to stop something just because god wants me to, I want to stop something once I understand exactly why god wants me to, otherwise I am just virtue signalling and if I have learned one thing about my god, he does not like virtue signalling.

[@hypertips]

Marvel: "Endgame is the most ambitious crossover ever made." Jordan: "Hold my Grail."

[@milkman2266]

“Hold my sparkling water”

[@bryanmatthews3797]

"Hold my spiked wine."

[@jorritjorik]

you gave me a good laugh :-)

[@angureyna]

Hold my steak

[@MTD4dz]

Marvel is such Satanic trash. Never watching that shit again!

[@RoshiR]

This was completely incredible. So proud of Dr. Peterson for leading the wisdom movement. We are all right behind you thinking through these beautifully complex social issues. God bless you all. It's a wonderful day to be alive!

[@matthewsheek8306]

The inclusion of an artist in such a conversation has been a long time coming. Happy to have Jonathan’s input

[@marywellssmitharnp-c6667]

I am about to begin my third listening of this conversation. I’m thoroughly convinced these are some of the most important public discussions being had in the Western world, and that the next generation-whatever paths they choose-will have to contend with the reality that this caliber of thinking and cordiality of debate was accessible to them.

[@thewalkingthinker6561]

Emotional and intelectual ride altogether. The power of a conversation in which people pay attention to each other and listen. Wonderful.

[@renx81]

It's called a dialectic. Sadly seems to be a lost art form... until you come along a discussion like this one. There might still be hope in this world.

[@sams8502]

As a graduate of a top university working in tech, the amount of intellectual firepower and just wisdom in this conversation is astounding. The layers to peel and the assumptions challenged. Everything is on the cutting edge, philosophy-religion-science-consciousness and there aren't new ideas but there are new connections that just push wisdom forward.

[@sams8502]

@Kiwi ConnoisseurMy point is that I’m surrounded by the smartest people and I’m floored by the level of intellect these individuals have.

[@mapaz555]

Bishop Barron is like a cascade of knowledge and inspiration to me & Jordan Peterson is someone searching and seeking that I hope reaches higher & higher each time. I wish for him the warmth and peacefulness of resting on the arms of God as his child. Cherished, I hope you feel cherished.

[@masonreynoso3077]

Was inordinately pleased to see Vervaeke in this. Please check out his "meaning crisis" series. I think about it every day and it inspires me to pursue my PhD. Edit: I was reminded that the series is called "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis."

[@joyzenger6016]

I WILL TY

[@the300XM8]

Go get it brother. God speed

[@LC-pr5or]

What is the meaning crisis series really? Why is it genius? Convince me to watch!

[@laray7228]

They’re great and pursue that PhD man!!

[@Igor_lvanov]

Vervaeke's Awakening from the meaning crisis and Peterson's Personalities and it's transformations are two most profound courses in my life

[@loveoverfear20]

well I popped onto KZbin for some pre Thanksgiving turkey cooking ideas and now I am rescheduling my whole afternoon because I am SO excited about this!!!

[@NitwitMN]

You fellas have to get together OVER AND OVER! You manage to make one another at the top of each of your perspectives. This conversation sparkled. Gonna prolly replay several times. Grateful

[@martinjoseferreyra1961]

absolutely!!

[@DOBEAGAIN]

". . .in front of the Blessed Sacrament with my Rosary. . ." Bishop Barron got it in one!

[@samsallee5924]

Dr. Peterson, I just watched one of your daughter's recent podcasts and she mentioned that right now you're healthier than you have been in something like 5 years! As far as I can tell the topic of your health doesn't come up often, but I remember in your talk with Bret Weinstein that you explained to him your morning routine with running 10 miles and taking a shower before you could get anything else done. I was ecstatic to hear her say that you've gotten better from that point, and if you aren't perfectly happy with your health now I hope it continues to improve. Thank you for everything you do and I hope you stay happy and healthy!

[@yCherkashin]

Being happy with your health and wanting more are not mutually exclusive propositions. :) You can always be more healthy. And you can always be happy more. Blessings.

[@brycemannn4847]

Man I seriously love everything that bishop Barron does. He seems to understand religious history/theology better than anyone I’ve ever heard. He also sounds like he’s fallen in love with it. You can hear his worship

[@bigwig594]

Watch Church Militant

[@wmhs02dm]

A truly unique priest

[@ms.leclaire9017]

Well said! He is fully in love with sharing what he's learned. His ability to enter any conversation and express the faith is amazing. He takes be not afraid to a new level!

[@lcrcastro6966]

I could not agree more! Bishop Barron has been a warm light for so many questions.

[@the2ndcoming135]

🥇

[@msg1192]

This reminds me of something CS Lewis Williams, Barfield and Tolkien would have loved. Although not rooted in fiction, the depth and content of the conversation is something that the inklings would have gladly indulged in.

[@benjamMin278]

Wow. Good thought! 😊

[@EUPThatsMe]

As a teen I realized that it is not humanly possible to know everything about everything and so I settled for learning something about everything and how/where to find out more about anything as needed.

[@boss180888]

Good approach

[@Lyonessi]

That's exactly the thought I had at 14/15 years that brought about my search for enlightenment lol

[@the2ndcoming135]

Oh okay😎

[@robfield2302]

@@the2ndcoming135 lol

[@MarvinAMarcelino]

At teen i have so many questions, after questions they were not all answered that even now I am still finding answers to understand many things i observed around me. I want my own kids to ask, to question and make it their journey the rest aspect of life will just go secondary of importance.

[@shawntucker9283]

It's a great conversation. Thankfully I was led back to Godly thoughts by the words of Jordan. Now we get to continue on the hero's journey listening to the 4 horsemen!🔥 It's the time we should, the meaning crisis is real. Our entitlements are great and we have become ungrateful for them.onward and upward!

[@TheMrSomecheesyname]

How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed Just as I fall away again, I'm brought back to it. Your work is invaluable, gentlemen.

[@casfoto2]

I am amazed at this discovery of spirit/mind/wonder. I have lived around the world and and observed beauty and as a person who has made his life's work photographing the beauty of what God has given...this gathering of the four of you have given me a new definition of beauty that has deeply inspired me. Thank You all.

[@benpitman9134]

That was excellent. I am a Pentecostal minister and I was so thoroughly encouraged by the dialogue. Thank you.

[@valharris95]

Gotta love Bishop Barron. Looking forward to watch this!

[@ABB14-11]

I was looking for some Bishop B love and finally found some!

[@brenthobbs5294]

I've loved listening to each of these men, what a group to have together for one conversation.

[@sarah_honey_badger]

This was so nourishing, and as someone who has struggled my whole life with the 'tug and pull' of faith, I find this incredibly positive and I have reformed my relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it is an ongoing wrestle with God, but it is so beautiful I don't want it to stop. God bless you all. And please keep these coming. PS. We need you Mr. Peterson, please keep yourself strong, we need you to keep fighting the good fight, the light of the Lord shines through you immensely, I don't think I am the only person who has witnessed this, I hope you can feel him working through you, and if not I pray you do very very soon in Jesus name I pray, Amen.

[@jesh879]

I prayed with you.

[@jmethos]

Most of this is over my head and far deeper than I've ever delved into religion and the meaning of life but I still enjoyed listening. I'm so pleased there are people out there that are able to have these conversations!

[@MrSofuskroghlarsen]

God, I love John. Bless him a thousand times.

[@jeanlanz2344]

Thank you, Bishop Barron, Jonathan, John and Jordan. Keep working together for truth. Integrating what is true, good, and beautiful benefits us all. God bless you.

[@fatherslionstudio]

One of the beautiful aspects of this discussion is at 1:39:00 where John feels comfortable enough to bring up his own personal experience with the church. These are the dialogues our culture needs!

[@valq10]

Jonathan's smile throughout is just beautiful and holy

[@curtiste3235]

I noticed that, too. Happy thought-warriors!🤗 The lefties are so unhappy and angry. Grievance is exhausting and depressing. I prefer truth, mercy, common sense, compassion, justice, optimism, hope, faith, and service and accountability. That's the world I'm building for me and my family/community. That's a prescription for a happy, capable, resilient, and productive world.

[@DemetriPanici]

*“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.” - Marcus Aurelius*

[@samuelcrozier3661]

Makes no sense.

[@sambakich7494]

@@samuelcrozier3661 lead by example.

[@samuelcrozier3661]

@@sambakich7494 But you must first know what leaderships looks like.

[@masonreynoso3077]

Ok, easy. I'll just be a good man. Done. Simple. Piece of cake. I am good now.

[@grantwoolliams71]

A leader of one of the most immoral empires ever is here to teach morals? I could learn more about this man but I am doubtful

[@haydenlukas7447]

This is a dab on all the 2008 era atheists. Love it guys. Thank you all so much. Especially Jonathan. Grateful to God for you.

[@wrenlinwhitelight3007]

In my country, all our churches are empty and turned into homeless shelters. Atheism is strong in many parts of the world.

[@sonicnarutoTDpg]

@@wrenlinwhitelight3007 you haven’t been paying attention

[@pritam452]

@@wrenlinwhitelight3007 Which country are you from?

[@haydenlukas7447]

@@wrenlinwhitelight3007sounds terrible. I hope you guys can figure yourselves out.

[@kevinreedmusic]

I was just watching Bishop Barron’s video on living a meaningful life earlier today to prepare me for writing a paper on logotherapy…this came at a great time!

[@jeffreyhillmeyer3391]

Listening to Vervaeke, I think of the Holy Spirit. That is the simple answer. If you try to break it down any more than allowing the Holy Spirit to work within the world, this is when you become "disconnected" and probably begin to lose the proficient ability to discern. About 12 years ago I discovered Teilhard de Chardin's, The Divine Milieu, and it confirmed something I already knew from childhood. The best way to describe how I "feel" this is when I was a child, fully immersed in play, building an airplane model or when I was drawing or making something, I felt no greater connection or joy with my Creator. In fact as I smiled, I felt as if God was looking over my shoulder and smiling too. There are times I felt this as an adult and even today, when I have done a job "well done", I immediately think of God, and thank him, quietly, and then I shed a few tears. And so in this, at the very heart of it, is Love. That is the origin of everything.

[@erins2080]

I love how JP makes difficult concepts understandable to the average person !

[@Thindorama]

You've got to be kidding. It's quite precisely the opposite. He obscures perfectly plain things for you, no matter how well-read and knowledgeable you might be. Exactly not the answer to the depredations of 20th century anti-intellectualism.

[@ragmanx6256]

As an agnostic atheist myself, I find these conversations very interesting and intellectually challenging to follow through. While I remain unconvinced about a lot of the statements made here, I greatly appreciate the opportunity to listen to viewpoints so divergent from my own in a time where emerging monocultural monoliths seem to be hell bent on forcing anything nonconforming out into the dark. I mostly found Bishop Barron's take on scientism to strike a very tangible chord relative to current events, and something that can't be emphasized enough within our society.

[@willburke5843]

I hear ya, Brother. I can't swallow the literal supernatural claims, but I'm intrigued by how the Bible laid the groundwork for Western civilization. Much to be gleaned.

[@milesmungo]

This feels like a movie premiere... LET'S GOOOOOOO!!!

[@mialmastaposeia]

‘Part of what I see my task is to take the very best of science and answer all those challenges in a way that restores confidence in the hierarchies of intelligibility and the phenomenology of connectedness’ John you are in another dimension!

[@classycompositions932]

After the last session with John Vervaeke I became a big fan of his, hearing his cognitive science and philosophical explanation of things really takes your understanding to another level. Really interested to see how it combines with Petersons psychological and Jonathan/Barron religios expertise, especially when it comes to meaning making.

[@mitchellhahn]

I’d like to 2nd the motion of checking out Vervake’s “Awakening From The Meaning Crisis” lecture series

[@classycompositions932]

@@Joeonline26 I have, just the episode with JP was not nearly enough to understand all of his idea's, it was just the tip of the iceberg.

[@classycompositions932]

@@Joeonline26 It is indeed a lot of material, and also: althought his ideas are as great as JP's, they are slightly more theoretical or 'dry'. (And of course almost noone has JP's charisma and eloquince.)

[@Lerian_V]

Isn't it simply amazing that all truths about reality when expertly laid out, they cohere in a beautiful way. One more evidence that all truths about reality come from a single mind, the one eternal mind of God.

[@majojok]

@@Joeonline26 I think it was this comment that in January got me to start Vervaeke's lecture series, just finished it and wanted to thank you for playing a non-insignificant role in transforming my life for the better.

[@JulesFaraday22]

This is such a wonderful early Christmas present given to us by Dr. Peterson! I cannot believe a discussion as juicy as this has actually occurred. I’m really going to enjoy this one, thank you!

[@Remy.-]

mate its november

[@ashleynikolenko]

@@Remy.- and it’s the Christmas season! Advent began days ago! 😉

[@renx81]

@@ashleynikolenko Ugh, cringe

[@JulesFaraday22]

@@Remy.- Mate, its literally 6 days away from December. Learn how to use a calendar.

[@JulesFaraday22]

@@renx81 Why are you such a buzzkill?

[@gettingtogive]

Great to see Jordan and John back in conversation! Two men that have helped greatly to change and improve my life 🙌🙌🙌

[@JCLewis27]

Thank you so much. This conversation was like a run in the woods with old friends I just met. It was work to keep up, AND it was a salve for my mind and soul. Here is one person feeling less alone.

[@kaellito]

Jordan, a request. You can gather these 3 great minds 1 time a month, or 1 time every 2, 3 months. This debate was sensational. Thank you very much.

[@kaellito]

@Brett Watts Yeah sure. But no.

[@ZeroSmoke.]

@Brett Watts I can understand his mindset. A lot of churches are just garbage.

[@Lerian_V]

@Brett Watts Right. As the saying goes - I heard that from Bishop Barron - "an open mind is like an open mouth, it wants to bite down on something."

[@kaellito]

@@Lerian_V The funniest presumption is believing you know what I think is best. And Baron for me is the least interesting in this conversation.

[@Lerian_V]

@@kaellito It's funny that you presume that I presume to know what you think I best. I quoted Bishop Barron's speech ONLY for its relevance to what I was responding to, not for any other reason.

[@juliac9080]

Strange to realize when is discovered JP a few years ago, he wasn't a means to an end. Through him I met so many other thinkers and thought leaders.

[@DerekJFiedler]

This is a seminar panel that would normally cost $$$. So grateful that you all shared it with us as a free gift. Happy Thanksgiving.

[@psychsoulogy8018]

Dear Sir Jordan I might not know what had happened to you, but I am very sure that your chance of life right now is more meaningful and purposeful. You are here to inspire more of us humans who wanted to know TRUTH I will be indebted. I do really admire you by being not bias and having real grounds that made your feet really attached on it and how you are so focused and a very well composed person! I Love you Sir. You deserved to be loved in return!!! More Health, More Life, More Wisdom for you Sir and to all your love one's..

[@liangnv1287]

So glad Jordan put this group together! I have been dying to see them in the same conversation. This is way better than I imagined… sparks everywhere… something significant will arise from these conversations.

[@Jefrejtor]

Weren't I prone on my couch upon seeing this notification, I would've been knocked flat on my ass. Jordan, you're a wonderful man, but you've made this podcast into something far greater than yourself.

[@lucasgardner3175]

Thank you all for coming together and having this conversation. Some beautiful minds and powerful perspectives.

[@dom7590]

This video is a great example of what an intellectual discussion should be.

[@kennyfernandez2866]

Straight up the highest and most crucial conversation I have witnessed in my life. Not everyday you get a chance to get 4 truly initiated ppl talking about truth, love and beauty.

[@luxtenebris7246]

I was in the middle of watching a show and had to stop it mid-way through to watch this immediately as soon as I saw it. What a treat!

[@Intercaust]

I've never been more sad to see the end of a conversation. I could listen to these four, gifts from God, all day.

[@semmler3499]

Thank you so much for having this conversation publicly so that we may all learn from your gathered wisdom. God bless you.

[@luxtenebris7246]

You know, I’m writing this after I’ve finished the whole video, and something has just occurred to me. I’ve long been standing on the sidelines of the religious question, observing that we desperately need Christ and his church, now more than ever, and thinking that if only the Church had not become so scandal ridden and decrepit I would have happily joined it. But it’s only just occurred to me that perhaps the reason it has become so scandal ridden and decrepit in the first place is because people like me, who have a genuine desire to see it improve, have been doing nothing but sitting on the sideline waiting for others to improve it. Maybe I’ve been in the wrong all these years. Maybe it’s time I go to church and start acting in the participatory fashion that John, Jonathan, and Bishop Barron described here, and become an example and an implementer of what I’ve long hoped others would implement for me. Maybe it is time to join myself to the Church after all…

[@HaleStorm49]

Your sentiment is correct, but unfortunately thats not whats wrong with the Catholic Church.

[@renegadereturns]

The gates of hell will not prevail - Mt 16:18

[@JordanBPeterson]

Sounds right to me.

[@joshf2218]

Well said. I’d say become Orthodox then, regardless the Triune God will take you where you need to be if you earnestly seek Him.

[@oooUtube]

I may have to listen to this a thousand times to understand a fraction of it.

[@elporteroful]

Finally! Bishop Barron mentioned this conversation TWO MONTHS AGO in one of his videos and I've been waiting for it since!

[@EfrainOrtega-Tio]

In my own opinion, Jonathan and Bishop Barron were more calm with this Discussion Sharing. Thanks God for this great minds !

[@evelynmariayeshua]

Thank you everyone; just to mention… both Old Testament and the New Testament record spiritual experiences that were not normal to our everyday experiences. Also, The Holy Spirit guided different men at different times to record what we now know as scripture. It is seamless in the way that it affirms itself, from beginning to end. Clearly it is written by someone outside of our ‘time zone’ for the end of the book was known from the beginning. Genesis and Revelation dovetail. You don’t need to take ‘a substance’ to experience what is spiritual … yes John of the Cross was Toda Nada … so locutions and experiences were secondary to ‘Christ Alone’.. Thank you all - a great conversation.

[@bvokey8842]

I’ve been waiting for this to come out for several weeks. Big fan of Jordan, Jonathan, and Bishop Barron. What a treat.

[@LoLoA89]

I was not familiar with Barron, but it was a fantastic introduction! This was an amazing conversation to witness and I highly enjoyed listening to his perspective.

[@HodgePodgeVids1]

@@LoLoA89 He has a awesome KZbin channel you should check out. Bishop Robert Barron

[@LoLoA89]

@@HodgePodgeVids1 - I definitely will! Thank you!

[@briancooper8468]

Thank you so much for this. I am an artist. I love all the comments about the sacred and beauty. Vervaeke has completely transformed my practice. I hope to contribute to spreading the ideas in this discussion to my colleagues here in Los Angeles and New York. Their phobia of Jordan P. and Christianity can be overcome when such hopeful and honest discussions like this happen. Thank you again.

[@daisyviluck7932]

The phobias of Christianity and JP can also be overcome by pushing away from the mainstream media

[@bellanegrin3915]

This was extremely insightful. I have always been a Christian , but I have only just begun a real and meaningful journey with God, Jesus, and his Holy Spirit. It took an aweful and traumatic experience to see something I had never seen before. I am horribly saddened and yet thankful, in a very strange way for this new, but scary mystical experience.