Jonathan Haidt: "Social Psychology in an Age of Social Fragmentation" | The Great Simplification #59

[@evilryutaropro]

I think I have to disagree with many things Haidt said. I work at a high school and seen how the pandemic and smart phones have absolutely stunted many bright minds. It’s not “just social media”. The smart phone itself is the major problem. The students will waste time mobile gaming or sports betting if they aren’t on tiktok. The power of computing is weakening our minds every day. For every academic type or nerd like myself who enjoys reading and learning there are thousands of people who are socially isolated and rewarded for doing stupid things with their phones. I actively read books to get myself away from screens. In some sense the ease of information is great but we could already do so much with high quality books. If the internet has a place in society it really might be something we limit to public libraries, specific business operations, and universities. The kids I think on average are also way more collapse aware than people realize and they are more aware of it than older generations by far and it plays a massive effect on the motivation of kids. Haidt sounds like an out of touch boomer. He hasn’t been in a public high school for an extended period of time he teaches at prestigious institutions. What smart phones have done to society has been beyond a disaster. We depend on technology so much now that we no longer rely on our minds muscles or communities to get by. The environmental collapse is weighing down on a generation that feels like they were set up to fail by the ideas of markets and technological progress that Haidt is espousing. The moderates he seems to be high on are honestly just as bad as the extremes since they are offering nothing but the status quo that can only offer up solutions based on things that are energy and ecology blind. In theory we can tool social media around but we would still be rotting our minds in the allegory of the technocave while poverty and the environment get worse.

[@zezze5136]

Out of touch boomer and enlightened centrist is all I could think about during this episode. The left in the USA was systematically destroyed during the cold war with McCarthyism, assassinations, arrests, imprisonments, the war on drugs, etc. Calling the democrats the left is a joke and just goes to show Haidt's biases and total lack of understanding of the broader political spectrum.

[@liamhickey359]

Spot on . This talk reminds me of a quote by Nicholas Carr " .... our attempts to change human nature will be governed by human nature."

[@highdesertfarmer2126]

Good to see push back and critical thinking in the comments. I agree with many of the ideas but the overall framing does feel neoliberal, top down, oriented to meritocracy and blind to the actual conditions many people in the US. Perhaps this is a chance to "separate the art from the artist" so to speak .

[@gmw3083]

Haidt has some good insights. He's like the opposite of Jordan Peterson. Not polar opposites. They agree on plenty. They both still have a use for the core erupted establishment. Haidt more so. He can't help but mention Russian trolls and agents. Does he still think Russiagate was real and not a creation of the Hilarious Clintoon election campaign team and the FBI? JP has partially escaped the 'Russia Bad' narrative. Lauren Boebert is crazy? She's one of the Republican hold outs that forced Mccarthys hand and now he's reportedly blocking aid to Ukraine. A light at the end of the tunnel? Perhaps endless wore is Haidts preference? He mentions conspiracy sites. "They're all garbage." Why do so many of those 'theories' end up happening then? Haidt writes for and reads The Atlantic. Gotta luv potatus joe.... support wore or get outta here....

[@gmw3083]

Apparently, as far as Haidt is concerned, things were ok until ten years ago or so. He couldn't be more wrong. Structural schtoopititi didn't just come out of nowhere. The cancer has been metastasizing for decades. Jordan P could learn this, too. Both are far too attached to Babylon. Current systems are crumbling.... to dust. The Phoenix rises from the ashes. Nate seems to get the idea that death comes before the resurrection. We don't 'have' to do anything but let nature take its course. Row your boat gently....

[@anthonytroia1]

Excellent conversation and, I'm gonna push back on something Haidt says around 1:16:00. "We evolved to be hunter-gathers out in the woods living very short lives". My limited understanding of this topic suggests that if one were lucky enough to make it to adulthood (high infant mortality) they were just as likely to make it to old age (70+ years) as those in the developed world and enjoyed health that surpasses our own while doing it. Hunter-gathers were "starving during the hungry months". I am of the impression that famine has been more likely for agrarian communities, and the nutrition of hunter-gathers is superior to that of farming societies. "Life was really pretty miserable" (for hunter-gathers). This statement is subjective and depends on what metrics one is using and the lens through which one sees the world i.e. what are the values of the observer. Since making such statements is on the table, I will make such a statement: The lives of our pre-agrarian ancestors were superior to ours by most metrics. They had superior intelligence and strength. Most of one's days were spent in leisure; crafting and storytelling. No one had a "job", instead, folks spent a few hours a day procuring varied nutrient-dense foods from their "environment" (that word probably would have little meaning to indigenous people since they ARE the environment). Most importantly our ancestors enjoyed a degree of connection with one another that is probably incomprehensible to the modern mind. Yes, you could die from rabies or an infection but we die from car crashes, overdoses, suicides, and last but not least, overworking. I'm in the market for a time-machine if anybody has any leads.

[@coweatsman]

"...tough times produce tough men...soft times produce soft men..." One fly in the ointment with this otherwise fine quote. The corollary is that tough men can make the best from an environment as it presents itself. But on a desert island with no trees, no plants, no animals, no water and no close shore fish the toughest of men will perish just as surely as the softest of men. The denuded desert island is an analogy of the scorched earth we are busy producing, globally. This is a unique experiment. There have been tough times before but this time there will be no "greener fields" elsewhere.

[@zezze5136]

It's almost as if the original quote is total bullshit. Did soft men create the black plague? No it just happened because of mice and fleas and bacteria. Was the resulting good times because of tough men or because of the shifting peasant labor bargaining power? Can't believe the guest said that quote unironically on this show. Is the impending hard times the result of 300 years soft men just extracting as much fossil fuels as possible? That quote is just a roman empire circle jerk.

[@coweatsman]

@@zezze5136 That is true of the black death but I think Jonathan would argue that the BD was a biological force majeure, not a culturally driven event. The BD killing between a 1/2 and a 1/2 of Europe was a sort of population reset. I think I would argue that a life without struggle for humans is like a life in a zoo for an animal. We are not happy in utopia. We thrive trying to get to utopia but once there, emptiness, existential angst. We are energised by the journey, not the destination. How many rich people once they have made their bundle are utterly empty and unhappy. For animals in a zoo they have all the food they ever need, no predators, good health with vets on hand. One can imagine a Steven Pinker asking, "But why are they not happy? They have everything they need living like gods on Mt Olympus drinking ambrosia nectar with the gods". One only has to read the Greek legends to realise that their gods were not happy or at peace.

[@Paakku97]

​@@coweatsman that's known as the capitalist utopia. The illusion we have been sold. Just get more things and you'll be happy. We look in to the East and there we see a very different view of happiness, that doesn't require unnecessary hardship or pain, but also doesn't chase some empty golden trophies like a hungry dog like we do in the west

[@brianhawes3115]

Also I spend time at a cabin in a very remote area, and I see wild animals in their natural habitat and have seen that when they see me they spook and when a comfortable distance is attained and I’m not pursuing they revert back to a completely calm state, the fantasy we have is they stress all day over predators, that’s completely not true

[@aidanallen1976]

"life, uh.... finds a way"

[@BryanShephard-cx5rg]

I felt a chill go down my spine when I heard Jonathan Haidt praise Friedrich Hayek, a man who enthusiastically endorsed the Chilean dictator responsible for mass torture and murder. Deeply disturbing on so many levels.

[@chookbuffy]

Some of Hayak’s interviews have some truth in them and I feel better having have listened to it (as he was critiquing Marcuse who I did find more compelling) and also needed to understand why he is so influential but it reinforced my understanding that he was ultimately wrong. I don’t think he was praising him. At that point then most a lot of historical figures could be put under the knife

[@ruthtaylor3496]

I found Janathan's analyse of the democratic party to be pretty thin and with out much understanding of class capture/bias/ self interest and inequality. I can not think of any democratic politicians I would label as economically left but the list of who got rich whilst being a democratic politician is a long one. The democratic party was brought along time ago it seems to me and that is horrible not only for America but the world.

[@brianhawes3115]

Here’s a thought, Republicans blow smoke in your face and democrats blow smoke up your ass

[@beefandbarley]

Bill Clinton sold out the Democratic Party.

[@treefrog3349]

The financial exclusivity of a contemporary college education is a national disgrace. I am old enough to have taken FREE undergraduate courses at BERKELEY! Today a 2-year Associate degree from a community college costs more than a Berkeley BA did then! Is it any wonder that America is falling apart along its intellectual seams?

[@carolb6511]

As someone who first taught in 1979 and last taught in 2018, I can tell you that Jonathan and Nate correctly identify what has happened to college students. It's a shame, but I'm a retired college teacher who now recommends people avoid college. The cost problem was bad enough, but the uselessness of the education and the psychological issues of the students makes the whole thing untenable.

[@j85grim4]

University's like everything in this corrupt country are now soley about making profits for the most part and have nothing to do with education in any real sense. More about indoctrination into the corporate sphere and making money than anything else.

[@mvondoom]

Love Jonathan Haidt, and want to comment on a point he makes: he says kids since the 90's haven't been allowed any unsupervised time in which to grow up and learn some hard lessons. Somebody pointed out to me that this was also a time when the economy changed so that most of the time, both parents had to be out of the house at work. Maybe this colored the situation? My idea of unsupervised time as a child was roaming around the neighborhood, but we always knew there were a few moms in various houses and that help was near. Maybe the economy demanding that everybody work left no space in which children actually COULD be given unsupervised time.

[@jennysteves]

What a great observation! Thank you. I hope Jonathan Haidt considers this as he writes his new book.

[@zezze5136]

The total lack of this kind of analysis on Haidt's part and Nate's unwillingness to push back on the things Haidt was saying is pretty disappointing. Real "kids these days" vibes with no historical or material context or analysis.

[@unclesamshrugged2621]

Haidt: "There are so many brilliant conservative thinkers!" -- names *two,* one of whom worked for Pinochet and said "I prefer a liberal dictatorship to democratic government devoid of liberalism," and the other who apologizes for US slavery by saying "It happened all over the world." Nathan, I'm a big fan, but please press Jonathan on this the next time you speak and get a full list of all these "brilliant" thinkers to share with us.

[@liamhickey359]

Hopefully Jordan Peterson is on the list. It would be be an amusing listen as to why he might think JP is a great thinker.

[@Paakku97]

Would be interesting to hear his analysis why he switched to a more conservative viewpoint.

[@unclesamshrugged2621]

I imagine he encountered some cancel culture dynamics in a university setting and that freaked him out. Now he's trying to rationalize his freak-out by making the case that the right (which actually has a stronger cancel culture -- banning books and canceling whole programs of study) has really "brilliant" thinkers. Look, I can agree that there are some troubling leftwing cancel situations in some colleges, but it doesn't follow that the rightwing a) isn't worse and b) has coherent, good faith arguments about any major problems facing society. The GOP is literally running on nothing, is unable to govern, denies climate change, has no health care or immigration solutions and the majority of the party still supports Trump, who thinks he won the election and spurred a violent insurrection. But, yeah, that party has "brilliant" thinkers.

[@unclesamshrugged2621]

Yeah, I especially want to hear his list of *living* "brilliant" conservative thinkers. Hayek (Pinochet supporter) died in 1992. So, what has he got? Ben Shapiro? Dennis Prager and the conservative university professors who appear in his rightwing propaganda "PragerU" videos? I bet it's Bari Weiss and her fake "Austin University" staffed by all the grifters trying to get their share of rightwing billionaire money. From Nate's perspective, almost these rightwing thinkers deny climate change, so it's really depressing that Haidt is trying to give them an air of legitimacy.

[@CitizenK1969]

@@Paakku97 I've been a progressive my entire adult life, starting as an environmental activist in my college days... I can understand Haidt's shift, mainly because I've occasionally encountered ridiculous ideas (and people!) on the Left (if far less than what I see on the Right). I find there are values I share with certain kinds of conservatives, and forms of sloppy, uncritical groupthink on the Left that I reject. So I can see someone repositioning and shifting a bit. I think it's good to remain a bit uncomfortable with any position on the political ideological spectrum, because it means you remain a critical thinker. 🙂 I agree, it would be interesting to hear the specifics of his shift.

[@cbarbacoa]

I don't know, I'm a bit disappointed with a TGS guest for the first time, we are used to a bit more elaborated ideas on this podcast than "kids these days". Or maybe it's just me or maybe I'm having a bad day. Anyway, good work Nathan.

[@zezze5136]

You're not the only one. Couldn't believe the unsubstantiated nonsense coming out of Haidt's mouth on this one. Kids need to run around unsupervised? Yeah sure, where is there ANYTHING within walking distance in a car dependent suburb? Leave your kid unsupervised and you will get CPS called on yourself. Social media and smart phones aren't great for mental health, but why is there no further analysis of what is on the phones recking people's mental health? Privately owned companies that must increase engagement need insecure consumers, so they create that insecurity by blasting you with advertising that makes you feel inadequate.

[@Paakku97]

I had the same sense. That "back in my day" feeling. And how he was talking in absolutes, seeming so convinced that all these mental health issues are centrally linked to social media use and safe spaces in schools based on some correlations. But I might be judging too soon here, I didn't listen to the full episode yet. And besides, there is probably some grain of truth in what he is saying.. it just doesn't seem like a full picture. And I also love his book the righteous mind, so I'm not opposed to this guys ideas in general really

[@marcsimard2723]

Considering Nate hosts a channel dedicated to navigating what in other terms will be essentially a cultural apocalypse, the idea that social media and education is the source of anxiety and depression is a bit… strained?

[@kvaka009]

​@Marc Simard right, as if it's got nothing to do with the fact that gen zees are seeing the world crumble around them with terrorism, financial crisis, mass shootings, pandemics, and devastation of the ecosystem by an insatiable mega machine while being told to buck up with ancient wisdoms by upper class white dudes. Why trust your feelings then or wish to crawl under a bed?! An unexamined life and all that...

[@ivandafoe5451]

Haidt is an able scholar, communicator and professor, but he has a fatal flaw that comes from his total submission to the authority and orthodoxy of corporate capitalism. His status and success has relied on looking for and commenting on modern society's problems and assigning blame for them, while deliberately diverting away our attention from this overwhelmingly powerful presence in our midst that controls almost everything in our modern world. His benefactors must not be held to account.

[@Who-vt9oh]

It's so interesting how people who face adversity as children feel strongly motivated to improve their economic position so that they can spare their children from that adversity, but in doing so the parent raises a child who is incapable of dealing with adversity.

[@sylviam6535]

Present success always contains the seeds of future failure. It has always been like that. Strong men create good times, …

[@coweatsman]

I think Jonathan's take on capitalism ignores the environmental requirements to allow that "dynamism", that is GROWTH. Without growth capitalism will morph into feudalism just as feudalism morphed into capitalism when growth, from new resources in the new world following Columbus and dialled up to 11 will with utilisation of fossil fuels 200 years ago. It is the reason that the economy is shaping into a rentier culture of subscription from the traditional ownership culture. Corporations MUST increase revenue. With limited options for a larger market the solution is to bilk the same market repeatedly, from printer ink fob keys to heated car seats and hitting more and more. Regular listeners to Nate's podcast will understand why growth has a limited length fuse and will shrivel instead. Consumers will become feudal serf, citizens will become subjects of corporate lords. There is no growth, and therefore no capitalism with resources.

[@ivandafoe5451]

Agreed. Using the word "growth" seems to be a standard justification for a capitalist society that is clearly failing us. Growth has positive connotations, but the negative connotations seem to be ignored when the attempt is made to sell capitalism as not only the best option, but the only option. There are several negative connotations of growth...one is the uncontrolled growth of metastasizing cancer, that inevitably destroys its host. It comes to mind as an apt metaphor for the late stage capitalism that is destroying our societies in the ways you have pointed out.

[@brianhawes3115]

Good point , I also felt that as natural resources deplete the extractors will come for the population, God help us, it’s already started

[@chrishnah]

Wow, never thought about it quite like that

[@paulwhetstone0473]

Great dialogue, Nate. Where I strongly disagree with Jonathan Haidt is his assumption that the US has an actual two party system with any substantive difference. Both parties are completely subservient to corporate interests. Just look at how Bernie Sanders and AOC voted to transfer trillions of dollars to the .1% and refused to support forcethevote for Medicare for All during Covid. They also have been fully supportive of increasing an already bloated military budget.

[@j85grim4]

He also claims we have "radical left" in tbe democratic party.... AOC and Bernie would be considered center left at best economically in the majority of countries in Northern Europe. Just shows how off the spectrum to the right this country has drifted since the Reagan and Clinton administration's.

[@paulwhetstone0473]

@@j85grim4 So true!

[@heidi22209]

Both side are morally corrupt.

[@treefrog3349]

Your assumed premise : "If the goals of universities is to expand liberal education, to understand lots of topics..." is an idealistic one which I totally concur with. However I think it would be more accurate to say that the emphasis on contemporary education has more to do with WHAT to think rather than HOW to think for yourself. Formerly a Liberal Arts education consisted of a broad overview of the advancement of civilization in every field of endeavor during the last several thousand years. Wisdom and objective critical thinking has been replaced by rote memorization. Many colleges more resemble vocational schools rather than "institutions of higher learning".

[@room_threeothree]

Memorization is the path one finds when enrolling into a university. Madness!

[@billhopen]

I have sent this dialog/discussion podcast to my 19 year old daughter, who is about to start college...I hope she has professors such as you two at the college he attends. I'm a 73 yr old Boomer artist NYC urban refugee living in Appalachia for over 40years. College will be an extreme culture shock for my daughter who was raised in a "Norm Rockwell America" sweet little town, who's grown up without social media/I-phone, and "new think wokeism" This will be interesting to watch.

[@timeenoughforart]

Kids are going to feel crazy when on one side we can't say a person is "fat", then hear people called cunts and bitches in popular culture and then find videos of people being raped and killed on line being presented as entertainment. How can any of us feel sane. On one hand our kids are coddled then on the other they are traumatized. My granddaughters school had a red alert lockdown while she was in the hallway. All the doors were locked and when she made it to her room they would not let her in. None of the class rooms would let her in. Then my other grandson got suspended for six months for having a spitwad fight using slingshots. All through high school the administration were afraid he way he was going to shoot up a classroom. Actually he has a bubbly playful personality. This is not a liberal/democrat issue. This all happened in Idaho and is directly related to the police force.

[@ivandafoe5451]

Modern western societies have been constantly "traumatized" from well before the internet age by this so-called entertainment. America has been fed a steady diet of anxiety inducing violence for many decades since WWII from ALL sources of media, this propaganda campaign has only been continued, expanded in availability and made even more graphic and visceral by our latest technologies.

[@sylviam6535]

The reason why there are inconsistencies regarding what is permitted and what is not is that the evaluation is not based on logic, but instead it is based on the political agendas being pushed.

[@naasduplessis855]

Interesting conversation. About your question to Jonathan around whether the same problems of social media are manifesting itself in the global south: Even though I haven't done any scientific surveys or studies on the topic, as a South African I can confirm that it's exactly the same phenomenon here. Teenagers are progressively growing up on social media and in front of electronic screens, rather than out in the real, natural world. It surely is a global problem.

[@coweatsman]

I am not sure how "nasty" human life has been for the greater part of humanity, meaning hunter gatherers. Life expectancy was low but that is mostly down to high infant mortality. Life expectancy and average height decreased with the advent of agriculture. Even though there was more food driving population growth after the advent of agriculture, there was less variety of food and a poorer diet. Farmers worked harder than hunter gathers because they had to expend energy into growing food instead of just using the forest like a walk in pantry and fridge. There was struggle but struggle gives purpose and satisfaction. A lack of struggle is a modern problem leading to many psychological problems like animals living in a zoo who never have any struggles. In a group, an existential threat builds strong community spirit. Just ask survivors of the London blitz.

[@coweatsman]

Steven Pinker almost, but not quite, gets it. Misses it by that much, a pinch. Twinkets and shiny stuff and no problems do NOT make happy people. He asks, missing what he is actually observing, "why aren't people satisfied. Dostoyevsky got it, describing the human condition in "Notes from the Underground".

[@brianhawes3115]

Yep wild animals spend almost none of their time stressing on predators, they get over themselves very quickly

[@jbtvt]

Never had surgery? I would've been dead of a burst appendix at 25.

[@brianhawes3115]

Great analysis, ever read My Ismaile ? The one about the tell apathetic ape? Great book that expelled some of the modern society bs, I personally love hunting and gathering, with my kids we find mushrooms, berries and nuts galore, easily feed us for a long long time, no one believes it though

[@jonathantrautman]

Thank you so much, Nate and Jonathan

[@dalebirononpoetry]

Listen first for understanding, then for agreement… This is a principal I try to live up to as much as possible. I now understand Jonathan Haidt a little better and felt he made several interesting points, particularly around the interplay of emotion and intellect. And yet… when he uses Friedrich Hayek as a prime example of laudable conservative thinking, I both understand and vehemently disagree. I wish Haidt had been a little more clear about which Hayek ideas he felt were compelling. I’ll be the first to admit that I am no Hayek scholar, however, the few things I do know about him I find deeply offputting. Also, I felt his summation of the problems in our current economic system, as simply an imbalance between “dynamism and decency” to miss the mark considerably. To use a cliché, it simply “scratches the surface” to describe our problems that way. Lastly, I got the impression that Jonathan Haidt had listened to few if any of Nate’s previous interviews. Of course, we are all busy with our lives and work, however, it would’ve been skillful for him to have at least had more of a sense of some of the previous conversations. One of the things I really love about many/most of Nate’s previous guests, is their combination of brilliance and humility, and how they often refer back to previous interviews to deepen and contextualize their own points.

[@lovman]

Haidt did mention he listened to the Daniel Schmachtenberger conversation with Nate.

[@dalebirononpoetry]

@@lovman Great and fair point. I did think about that later, so glad to acknowledge it here. I do think Haidt is quite bright, as does Nate based on his comments of admiration. For me, however Haidt's take on Capitalism is quite traditional and therefore dangerous. I'm not sure his idea of economic "dynamism" has caught up with the poly-crisis, multiple domain earth overshoot, reality we all face. And for Nate, this is so fundamental to all his work. Lastly, Haidt's using Friedrich Hayek as a poster child for sound conservative thinking was a little much for me. Had he followed up by giving even one of those Hayek ideas he admires, I would have been able to understand his point better. For me, Hayek's philosophy was deeply flawed.

[@lovman]

I think that the new economic and cultural system we will need to create to survive and thrive in the Great Simplification could possibly include a form of Capitalism that would have both dynamism and decency but the dynamism would require new forms of metrics as rewards - i.e. not exclusively shareholder value (or at all) and endless growth on a finite planet. I think having innovation, creativity will still be possible, and even necessary for this to happen. We can not afford to throw the baby of modernism out with the bathwater of its excesses and disasters.

[@dalebirononpoetry]

@@lovman yes, again great points you make. I’m in for a new economic system that would include the things you describe. Of course, the name of such a system is only a label. However, I’m not so sure that it’ll even be anything like capitalism once the changes you describe have been made. Again, labels are not nearly as important as the substance underneath. Thanks for a good exchange.

[@brushstroke3733]

E.O. Wilson was the man! Glad to hear you both know who he was and enjoy his work. He is the father of ecology for those who don't know him. Before him, people didn't really think about ecosystems or how they were themselves a kind of complex living organism.

[@LP-dc7fh]

School shootings also dramatically affected how schools implemented “safety” measures (columbine 1999, sandy hook 2012). Kids in school are constantly given the message that they are in danger. “Safety” is the number one goal of many schools, both physically and mentally.

[@mandarkokate5613]

Hey Nate I am regularly following your podcast and appreciate the thoughts. Please bring Jason Hickel economists and Kate Raworth from doughnut economics to your podcast. They are best.

[@Paakku97]

Defnitely, Dougnut Economics ties so well to this podcast and Nates ideas

[@JaneRakali]

Jason Hickel is a GOAT

[@rtoennis]

Brilliant conversion. Inspiring and gives social tech innovators like myself both a scary wake up call; and some hope.

[@nicholasporteron]

My first exposure to Johnathan Haidt. Wonderful! Thanks Nate.

[@michaelgriffin3369]

I love this show, but this interview is a wild departure from its usual rationally grounded nature: People are killed in this society for simply being who they are. It’s easy for two guys to criticize safe spaces and hotlines that they’ll never personally need. If we want a diverse, inclusive society, we all have to do the hard work of understanding each other’s perspectives. A person with a different background and boundaries isn’t coddled by letting them be known. What I see being coddled in this conversation is the middle-aged cis white guy club who is perfectly willing to assail straw man arguments of non-existent caricatures with glib, self-serving theories about wisdom and human nature.

[@lovman]

Another great conversation Nate. If you want to explore the effect of culture in coming to grips with the Great Simplification, you may want to bring on guests that look at Cultural Evolution at the group or cultural value meme level, and how that has evolved and how with post-modernism being the current "leading edge" of culture, and how its disasters (vs its dignities) are what is holding us from addressing the issues of modernism and pre-modernism, and the fact that all of these world views are active now and clashing. I suggest Steve McIntosh or perhaps Robb Smith or even Jaime Wheal, although he is focusing on individual human performance vs collective action.

[@marksmit8112]

Although my view doesnt align with Haidt, it was still a stimulating podcast.

[@Paakku97]

Would be awesome to see Gabor Mate on the show. He might have a word or two about that "coddling" thing. Anyways he would be a perfect guest for this podcast in my view to link how trauma and addiction and these mental health issues tie in with the systemic environmental issues.

[@JaneRakali]

Good call. The ancients had commons to live on and didn't have to deal with "grind or die" ideology.

[@brushstroke3733]

💯👍

[@4everhdt]

I can't tell you how much of a joy it is to listen to two lefties discus sociobiology, the snowflake problem, ancient wisdom, the 'hard times ' meme, and talk about bias response team nonsense contemptuously. I think we are starting to make actual progress finally. Good job, Men.

[@zezze5136]

What gives you the notion that Haidt is a leftist? He spent most of the episode complaining about "the left" without really understanding what "the left" actually means. Haidt referenced the "tough times make tough men" unironically and showed very little understanding of historical or material basis for why kids can't run around unsupervised, why privately owned profit motivated social media companies have an incentive to damage kids' mental health, or how the "both sides" stance helps the right.

[@bumblebee9337]

There is only one side as far as US politics is concerned. The structure of Republicans and Democrats is optimized in favor of bi-partisan issues (e.g military spending, special interests, war-mongering abroad), with a bit of theater on peripheral issues (e.g abortion, the social safety net, equity) in order to distract the public.

[@j85grim4]

Another way to say it is there is only one party: The Business Party. Identity politics makes for a great distraction while the rich lie, cheat and steal more resources and power away from the majority..... And the majority are more than happy to let them do this as long as they get iPhones and moronic dancing videos on Tiktok.

[@treefrog3349]

Divide and conquer!

[@sylviam6535]

On the right, we’ve called this the Uniparty for at least 15 years now, probably longer.

[@peterclark2374]

Nate. In this dialog, you say that you have led discussions about Righteous Mind with “my systems ecologist”. Who is that? Are those discussions available somewhere as a recording? Thanks. 11:58

[@anthonytroia1]

I have long complained that parents no longer allow their children to handle knives, but are fine to leave them alone in a room with unlimited internet access. So much for providing "safe spaces".

[@kvaka009]

Give children their knives back!!!!

[@teresalutterman1429]

Thank you Nate, just discovered your series and have listened to almost all of the archives in the past few weeks! My initial emotional reaction to this episode rubbed me wrong in several areas Here are two: I'm a little skeptical about two white men throwing shade on things like bias reporting. Maybe the pendulum has swung too far but as a 64 year old female in this society I could have used some of this support in my day. Also parenting is very personal. I struggled with the balance of "not too tight, not too loose" with my child. This is a super hard balance and it's very tricky business to judge other parents' choices. But some good ideas to explore and I appreciate that.

[@TheReaderOnTheWall]

This guy is too right wing to see that the Marxists decries the idpol Postmodernists too. It's a very liberal tendency, often at the transition step to Anarchism, although many Anarcho-Communists I know dislike how Identity Politics destroy proper activism, especially in a movement that requires broad coalitions. His fascistic prescriptions are scary.

[@sylviam6535]

Funny, because if you take the Marxist narrative and transfer it from class to identity, you pretty much get today’s idpol, word for word. by the way, Marx was very much pro gun rights.

[@dalewolver8739]

Very interesting discussion. Thanks

[@paintingtracey]

What a great talk. The next step is an individual's guide to navigating this new reality. Things like what to do when you feel your ideas are challenged and how to look at the other side rationally. How to navigate social media with your brain in tact. Etc etc. I mean maybe that already exists. I just think we need to make it practical now on the individual level.

[@SlackKeyPaddy]

Intuition does not come from a lazy mind, Once reason is exhausted to an impasse then the door of Intuition opens. The discoverer of the benzine ring is a good example of intuition , the form of the benzene ring was revealed in a dream of the discoverer!

[@truepatriot6388]

Haidt has identified that while progressives primarily value fairness and protecting the vulnerable, conservatives also value loyalty, tradition, authority and purity/sanctity. All of these values are Syntropic! Syntropy, the opposite of entropy, characterizes the rhythmic patterns of stable complex systems, as seen in our bodies, our families and in the natural world. Syntropy and morality are both dynamic and complex, with multiple dimensions that cannot be effectively captured by simple, binary rules/laws. Thus, it is hard for top-down approaches to effectively create a fair and moral community. Syntropic morality must live in the heart (intuition/empathy) as much as the head (logic, reason), and in both of these far more than in words on paper. Truly, it can not be optimized, and only elicited by free reciprocity and persuasive example, not by control or coercion. Humans naturally develop a sense of justice/fairness, according to research even other species do, guided by an inner compass that places value on maintaining/sustaining "healthy" patterns of relationship. These social patterns are critical for making sense of the world, meeting our needs, and experiencing a sense of predictability and security. Without fairness, we experience stress and even distress. With fairness, individuals and relationships are healthier and more resilient. (Un)fairness is certainly a mental health issue, and accounts for some of the adverse health impacts of racism/discrimination and inequality. Therefore, fairness/justice is socially and psychologically "syntropic", while its absence is entropic. Syntropic cultures value freedom and fairness, as well as purity/sanctity, stable patterns, and wisdom of elders. They also value truth, knowledge, beauty, nature and the sacred. The psychology of morality is the psychology of Syntropic values. Regarding the coddling and social media algorithms, it is worth considering the significance of information entropy/syntropy in complex systems and the work of Karl Friston's free-energy theory of mind. According to Friston, complex systems experience information stress when predictions of what will happen turn out to be false - what he calls "surprisal". This is consistent with Shannon's description of information. For humans, this is why we experience discomfort when our expectations, desires and beliefs conflict with the reality of the world around us. According to Friston, systems can use two strategies to resolve this stress and discomfort (and there may be others). One strategy employs external power and control to force the environment to conform to how our minds expect it to be in order to satisfy our wants and desires. This is the coddling approach. Alternatively, in the face of unpleasant "surprisal", we can instead adapt/improve our internal predictive model of the wider-system around us. Consider the consequences of these contrasting strategies. Once it expands beyond limited physical needs into endless socio-psychological wants and desires, the “we will change the world” strategy becomes a false solution. While offering quick and easy reassurance-pleasure-reward to our consumer (animal) brains, it demands the constant input of external power and control to be maintained. This use of force both reflects and contributes to conflict with the wider system (the planetary biosphere), and inevitably generates a cascade of unexpected problems, externalities, resistances, degradations, disappointments and endless struggles. It characterizes the entropic core of expanding industrial-technologic consumption and insecurity. On the other hand, the “we will change ourselves” strategy is a proper solution. It involves expanding our awareness and understanding of reality (aka the socio-biosphere), learning to control our impulses and desires, modifying our expectations and cultivating contentment in order to better adapt to the whole AS IT IS. This allows the unfolding of health, beauty, justice, love, wisdom and other unexpected benefits, with minimal external input of energy and material. Many healthy philosophies, spiritual traditions and indigenous cultures nurture the flow of Syntropy and its deep satisfactions. Anyway, it is interesting to recognize how Haidt's work fits well into the broader Syntropic paradigm/perspective. I wonder if a syntropic systems approach might allow novel solutions to his concerns to emerge? For example, better identifying positive feedback loops in social media and understanding why these are harmful and why we need negative feedback - such as algorithms that guide people to reasonably opposing viewpoints.

[@marciaallen9474]

Very interesting Nate how the students you taught socially changed. It reminds me of something I just experienced. I wanted to hire a high-school student as an assistant for a few hours a week. I posted on Next Door the job. A mother contacted me and proceeded to correspond with me. I didn't think it was a big deal until I saw how her mother was completely managing every aspect of her life. I thought, how can this young lady assist me if she can't do one thing without her mother guiding her? Before we even met, I was getting long summaries of everything about the seventeen-year-old and her busy schedule. We ended up not meeting. I was feeling that I would be spending too much emotional energy with someone not equipped to be able to do simple tasks for me. I'm concerned about the young people. Being a baby boomer I was working when I was 11 - 12 years old and incredibly self-sufficient by age 16 compared to the young people of today.

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

wow, I'm sad to hear how controlling some parents are of their children and they really think they're doing what's right for them, yet they are strangling their children's development and possibly allowing them to develop online where the parent thinks it's safe.

[@CitizenK1969]

I'm an Xer, and a friend of mine who's a Gen X nurse tells me she often deals with parents accompanying patients in their late 20s to their medical appointments, filling out their paperwork for them, and essentially managing the medical appointment. This was 5+ years ago, but she relayed her experiences in the context of us talking about ways the younger generations seem different (from a Gen X vantage point) -- and her observation is they are far more focused on technology, and also more generally helpless due to infantilization by their parents. As a parent myself, I try to keep her perspective in mind. I do worry Gen Z is going to get walloped by history.

[@iamthebearjew96]

I gotta say, as someone born in 1996, this is all super fun.

[@spencern22]

This was chicken noodle soup for my social media soul. Thanks guys, great interview

[@peterclark2374]

Thanks Nate and Jonathan! Excellent dialog. I look forward to another.

[@jennysteves]

Great episode! Looking forward to part 2 in 2024.

[@Gobothechairman]

If this becames a series, it would be epic.

[@ivandafoe5451]

We could call it "Social Problems Created By Capitalism - But Are Blamed On Its Victims."

[@jjuniper274]

Thank you Nate and Jon. I read Dr. Haidt's Coddling book a couple years ago, and it has profoundly influenced how I now raise my own teenagers. I hope I'm doing the right things to make adult humans. I hold an M.Ed., and much of what he wrote correlates with my understanding.

[@devin_3875]

Awe, that’s wonderful to hear about the influence Coddling had on your parenting! Tell me your opinion: Do you think it would be presumptuous of me to get that book for my sister? She’s got two kids, 10 and 14. And tbh, I’m a bit concerned. But not sure about overstepping my bounds

[@JonathanLoganPDX]

Absolutely another excellent, interesting, and educational discussion!

[@Blonde111]

I agree with Jonathan about going w your gut and staying away from toxic, mean people… won’t make you stronger, will only make you disappointed in mankind.

[@j85grim4]

I'm a huge fan of this podcast but this was by far the most misinformation ridden guest you've ever had on here. Haidt has absolutely no idea what's going on in the majority of America (most likely cause he's never had to struggle financially like the majority of us here have). Way too much is being made about the influence social media is having and not nearly enough is being made about how the life we Americans were promised growing up has been stolen from under our feet so billionaires like Bezos and Musk can have enough private wealth to own their own rocket ships. I could go on picking apart all the objectively false statements Haidt makes like at the end about how hunter gatherers lives were miserable (all the evidence actually shows the complete opposite according to every anthropologist and archeologist I've heard talk on the subject) but instead, how about having him take a trip down to Kensington Ave in Philadelphia for a day so he can witness what the majority of Americans who have been living one pay check away from living like for the last 40 years are afraid will become their fate next. Then he might actually understand why people are acting so crazy on social media and not that social media is making people crazy.

[@annibjrkmann8464]

I hope more people see you post

[@jjuniper274]

A very good podcast is "Your Undivided Attention," or any discussion with Daniel Schmachtenberger.

[@misterfixie6003]

The problem with social media is that it allows people to behave in ways they would never act to each other's faces. Kensington Ave in Philly? C'mon man that's a bit hyperbolic. The vast majority of Americans live better, or COULD live better, than kings of old. They have instant access to more information than they could possibly utilize. They could live long, fruitful lives without the hunger and scarcity of our forebears. Perhaps recency bias is clouding your judgement. Also, take the mask off man haven't you read the Cochrane study? "Follow the science" maaaan!

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Go ON picking apart? You didn’t even factually start…

[@frankmonahan5913]

I feel like Nate chose not to call Haidt up on certain points that I would assume he disagrees with. The whole thing about Gen Z being thin skinned solely because of social media is dubious. It obviously is a big factor, but as Hagens is well aware, we currently exist at the precipice before the 'great simplification'/collapse of modern industrial civilisation. Does he not think this might also have something to do with the alienation that the youth of today are feeling and the consequent high rates of anxiety, depression and suicide?

[@hiecharles]

awesome! let's hear more

[@wilfriedhahn5053]

Hi excellent and amazing podcast . We absolutely need to spent more time and ressources on our kids. We have to teach them about social psychology , group thinking , reason and science . In regard to climate and energy crises we need the development of nuclear power with 4th gen SMR like Cairos, Terra power, Copenhagen Atomics ,.. These are sustainable, ecological , affordable solutions.

[@ivandafoe5451]

...that will only perpetuate the problem of nuclear waste, unless they are fueled by Thorium.

[@wilfriedhahn5053]

@@ivandafoe5451 they are fueled by thorium

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Great conversation, thank you both Jonathan and Nate, it's really good to hear about connection and I look forward to future conversations. Peace

[@frustratedatheist9885]

Thank you so much, so glad you had Jonathan on! Please consider having Iain Mcgilchrist on sometime too!

[@bonnittaroy]

If authentication was enabled, the "conversation" would grind to a halt. That is the limiting constraint coming from their perspective. Think: why did my space die, and facebook proliferate? Thanks for all you do.

[@jbtvt]

No it wouldn't. People want kudos for what they say and do, that's why non-anonymous Tik Tok is far more popular than Reddit. But if you have an anonymous troll fouling the conversation then people who have a white collar image to uphold will also go anonymous to counter. Just another race to the bottom. Prevent anonymity and you stop this cycle. Not sure where you're going with Myspace vs Facebook. neither are predominantly anonymous and if memory serves it was even easier to go anon on Myspace if anything.

[@sylviam6535]

@@jbtvt - Cancel culture targets dissenters, not trolls. You’re either naive or disingenuous.

[@TheNMartist]

Need to further define right vs left, social vs economic and "extremism".

[@somedaygolf]

Prof Micheal Persinger (RIP) did taste the repression in Canada as well by the mainstream media (Radio-Canada ) when he was still teaching in Ontario ( Sudbury) at Laurentian University .

[@carolb6511]

Still listening to this, but need to correct an error. Jonathan said you have anonymity on Uber or Airbnb. Obviously not true since you pay for those services with a card. If there is a problem, those companies can trace you back to a particular cardholder. Unless the card is stolen, you are who you have identified yourself to be. Also a comment: if anonymous use of social media is eliminated, people like me will simply stop using them - people who have been abused, harassed, whatever, and cannot afford to have their abusers be to locate them. That may be a cost that we have to bear, but at least let's enumerate the costs properly. Frankly, with what I've seen in the past 10 years, I would be happy to have an excuse to stop using the internet so much.

[@Paakku97]

Facebook already proves that it doesn't make much difference if its your face or an avatar that you use to interact with. People will say the most vile, reactionary and divisive things proudly with their faces attached to it. It's the algorithm in the background that incentivizes certain potentials in human behavior that is more central to the issue.

[@TheMrCougarful]

So you need the world to be your safe space. Sorry, it's not. It cannot ever be.

[@boombot934]

❤Thank❤🌹🙏 you, dear Jonathan and Nate. Great👍👏😊 conversation💭💬🗯!

[@noizydan]

An interesting conversation. Not sure I agree with you guys entirely on the thrust of this one. I do agree that cancelling counterpoint is never healthy and should always be a last resort reserved for the most extreme cases. But, to my mind it seems appropriate to have measures in place to prevent bullying in places of work and education. Why should people have to be exposed to bullying? Despite all the evidence that bullying is not a good way to get the best from people, it has been all too common a sight in teaching establishments for many years. Finding betters ways to teach doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. It isn't the 19th century any more. Ideas that might promote bullying of an individual or a minority group should be carefully contextualised and harms mitigated. We can do this without cancelling anyone. If we think about it, there are plenty of ways to present challenging ideas without causing offence. Even the most ugly ideas can be explored with respect for others. If a presentation is causing unintended offence, perhaps the presentation should be re-evaluated? If the presentation is intended to be controversial to the point of causing offence to some, then perhaps those people have the right to feel and act offended? Respect is a two-way street after all. If the ideas are challenging, it is only logical to expect some kickback. Isn't that the point of challenge? Some presentations at Universties do go beyond exploring challenging ideas and into deliberate provocation of one group against another, sowing division and leading to harm. Students do book specific controversial speakers for the sole purpose of causing offence on occasion. Kids be kids as they explore the boundaries of life. There have been plenty of cases of students harming other students, and students committing suicide because of actual or perceived bullying. Preventing harm isn't coddling. It is part and parcel of respect for others. With an effective complaints process, malicious complaints can theoretically be weaned out and support, training and guidance can be provided where needed. I'm actually quite open to the idea that you guys maybe just be a little bit stubborn on occasion when it comes to your own ideas, and are perhaps reluctant to take advice from others on the reframing of those ideas. Self-publishing on KZbin is a bit of a giveaway. This isn't a criticism. I like what you do; keep doing it. Maybe you have simply found a better platform for your presentation style?

[@VladBunea]

#1 I am sorry, but Sowell and Hayek are not "smart". One can easily dismantle their arguments. Certainly, they do sound smart because of the vocabulary they use. Oh wait, we have others in this camp, J Peterson anyone? #2 "safe spaces, micro aggression" is "craziness" to Mr. Haidt at 16:55? Very disappointing. #3 There is no far left in the USA, what is Haidt talking about? Who is the far left? Justice Democrats? Bernie Sanders? Folks asking for single payer health care and progressive taxes? But there is a far right in the USA that tried to overthrow democracy thru an insurrection.

[@sylviam6535]

Look up the current proposals for racial reparations in San Francisco. If you don’t think that is far left, you probably think that Mao Zedong worked on Wall St.

[@segasys1339]

45:54 This was excellent, but sidenote, Haidt's philosophizing needs some polishing. Postmodernism is not some crank academic offshoot but rather the inevitable conclusion of modernism's critical reasoning. Postmodernism is simply modernity's critical worldview turned on itself. It was inevitable and there's really no going back to an earlier, warmer, constructive version of modernism.

[@mayamichelle6741]

It would be great to have Dr Gabor Maté on your show to give some balance. Phrases like, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." and "Ignore your emotions." Are ancient ideas that are great for grooming the underrepresented for submission to patriarchal and supremacist systems. Also great for letting abusers of the hook. Maybe that works for white cishet wealthy men. Though I doubt it, I suspect this also fuels unacknowledged anger and resentment, continuing cycles of violence and oppression against women and minorities. What doesn't kill you, causes actual physical chronic disease later. Humans flourish when they are witnessed, nourished and encouraged. Not impressed with this guest.

[@teresalutterman1429]

Amen.

[@sylviam6535]

What a cacophony of woke BS.

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

Richard Branson, CEO of Virginia Airlines said that when he was four years old his mom drove him out to the outer part of London and let him out of the car and just said find your way home. He did and adults helped him along the way. He said after that he never felt afraid of anything again.

[@annibjrkmann8464]

This episode highlight why we will collapse in my opinion. His analysis on problems between people just shows why we will not transition to a "better" world but more likely a tyrannical and fascist one.

[@treefrog3349]

The "dumbing down" of America! Oops! sorry I am not allowed to say THAT!

[@annibjrkmann8464]

@@treefrog3349 Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to say that? There are already a lot of things you can't say on the internet or in real life because we collectively think that it is harmful to say. Could it be that as our population and complexity have grown we can no longer say and do all that we want?

[@j85grim4]

People only turn to fascist strong men like Hitler when they are desperate. In Hitler's case it was due to Germany being decimated during the great depression. This gets to the root of why people like Haidt are completely clueless about what's really going on here. We may turn to a wannabe dictator like Trump not because social media has made us crazy but because most of us have to work twice as many hours as our parents did to maintain the same lifestyle they did.

[@annibjrkmann8464]

​@@j85grim4 Could it be that the "Carbon pulse" that Nate is always talking about is what allowed people and social to have a "rational" and "liberal" democratic. And now that he surplus energy is going away we as a society can no longer have cohesion?

[@noahbrown4388]

Yup. It happens the same way (more or less) throughout all of human history. Why should we think that we’re any different? Actually, I guess we are different - we have a lot further to fall this time. With the capability to actually destroy most life on the planet on our way down.. 😕

[@newtalking3]

Great discussion

[@aresmars2003]

37:56 "I see the right way and approve it, but alas, I follow the wrong way." Or Alice in wonderland “That's just the trouble with me, I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it.”

[@liamhickey359]

Nate why dont you have PZ Myers on your show to discuss the subject of evolutionary psychology.

[@barrycarter8276]

I’m guessing your conversation with Haidt was for viewers like myself to try and understand the psychology of the “Human Superorganism”, in relation to “ The Great Simplification”, but it seemed when you tried to move it in that direction Haidt was reluctant to go there, but surely that’s narrative of your podcast, it left me very disappointed, better luck next time, if ever🤔

[@Paakku97]

I love his book The Righteous Mind, it's very insightful, but somehow I think Haidt is still more interested in engaging with the culture war intead of aiming to see it as part of a larger whole. I may be wrong though.

[@Sentimental_Mood]

Another great discussion.

[@wmgodfrey1770]

As a fair enough fan of Haidt's work, hopefully a compliment is taken when it's stated that his Coddling book could be a potential contender for companion if not sequel to Bloom's Closing of the American Mind of some 30-odd years ago.

[@mayamichelle6741]

As for the hoopla about sensitivity in universities, I observe knee jerk reactions and bad aid "solution" to a very real problem that's been largely ignored for decades on university campuses since😂 women and non-whites have been permitted attendance and "participation". Sadly administrators and professors don't implement actual solutions instead of A) professors teaching what they've learned and not allowing safe spaces questions/dissent/exploration and B) administrators providing "I've been offended hotlines". Both super strange responses for institutions that profess to be places of higher learning! But also both inevitable responses as solutions given by people who honestly don't have the possibility and experience to give solutions. Nate, there are 3 men, who are I'm sure TOTALLY off your radar, but who could actually speak to these types of conflicts and total destruction of functional communication that I see as basic cultural disabilities born of colonialism/classism/supremacy manifest on university campuses. It might be interesting to have them on your show... Mannie Thomas III, Richie Reseda, Graham Finochio.

[@Pinstripe0451]

I think fusing profit-seeking with "dynamism" is a fundamental mistake. There's plenty of dynamism in the public sector too.

[@jmarcguy]

I can only say I constantly hear talk of being offended. I don’t spend a ton of time online but being offended seems to be a big thing. I can’t think of the last time I was offended. I grew up a poor, overweight, biracial kid. It wasn’t uncommon to get called “fat ass” & “oreo cookie” in the same day. I’d get uncomfortable for a minute and then think “new Nintendo game comes out this weekend” & I’d be completely distracted. It’s not toughness but I always brushed things off & moved on. I couldn’t spend that much time being upset. I had nowhere near the seriousness that young people seem to live with today though.

[@devin_3875]

You know - yours seems to be the common experience I’ve heard, of people who grew up with some knock-around hardship. Thanks for sharing

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

I worked with a millennial. She was the archtypal millennial right down to the trans flag. She was nice and I liked her but she started crying once because a manager contradicted her mildly on some policy. She was so vulnerable and I really wonder if she ever had anyone talk back to her before. The problem for her is no one really cares in the corporate world about your feelings.

[@susanthursdays5008]

The epidemic of Social media is a by-product of the smart phone. But, cool point. You just solved or helped a problem: don’t allow any phones in your classroom. Inform administration and parents, and have students set smart phones on airplane mode and have the phones collected before setting into any classroom. And after a “term/semester”, bring to the school board and your Governor, and have Smart Phones, disabled, collected before settling into any classroom, with little to NO exception. We all made it through life without mobile phones. I promise, it won’t hurt. Now your both correct, and you solved your problem. Looking forward to you setting a goal to getting this policy in all public schools across America before 2024! (Is always helpful to have a deadline and, support.) I’m giving you mine! I know you can do it. I support you, @Jeremy Duran !🤗🤝🙂☀️💜🕊☝🏼💪🏾🌟💫👍🏼🙏🙏

[@StressRUs]

Gen Z became depressed and anxious because they can see what's coming: climate collapse, ongoing massive human overpopulation and overconsumption, endless war and civil unrest, natural resource depletion, global warming driving ever stronger wetter storms, rapidly failing reproductive function, ever crapier insecure jobs, ever less control over their lives, ever more pollution, etc., etc. Stress R Us

[@sylviam6535]

Stop buying into the climate doom cult. They are vastly exaggerating everything, and they’re actually contributing to the economic malaise. As far as less control over our lives, Gen Z votes for the statist left, which is also a huge part of that problem. You need to improve your thinking.

[@Matt-vo1ge]

If you're stuck in a "left/right" paradigm, then you're not thinking quite as systemically as you think you are. Try top down for starters, and things will make a lot more sense.

[@glenschleyer3498]

Wow, this was disappointing. Definitely the least connected I’ve felt to any discussion of Nate’s. It’s always fun to hear people from the generation that literally destroyed the world complaining about young people as soft and coddled. As with the MAGA crowd, I’m not sure what noble, free-thinking past is being yearned for, exactly. And I’m highly skeptical when older white men in positions of power (as am I) complain about being scared of speaking their mind due to oversensitive young people. I’d like examples of what bold statements are being suppressed - whenever I hear an actual example it’s always some retrograde status-quo-affirming nonsense that deserves to be challenged. This whole discussion was disturbingly close to familiar Fox News talking points.

[@eyeCU.00]

Not just teens but young Adults in their 20s & early 30s...

[@wuteva34]

I said this years and years ago no one under the age of 18 should have any access whatsoever to the Internet or social media

[@bumblebee9337]

The best way to reform Twitter would be for it to go bankrupt. For awhile there, I had hope that Elon Musk would manage to do just that.

[@paintingtracey]

I think it will just be replaced.

[@TennesseeJed]

Humans are complicated, even seemingly simple ones.

[@robertzabinski6083]

Imagine a geo political military analyst putting out a radio interview/ discussion or writing a magazine article in late December 1941 with no discussion of the recent destruction, the unconscionable attack on a community, the tone deaf negligence in Washington, the lies, the heroic and tragic struggles of the survivors, the tragedy of the fallen and injured, and the vast implications of how that event clearly defined that there is indeed a need for a coordinated, determined, massive response. In this first episode since Feb 3, it would have been inspiring to see taking the recent event in Ohio as as a catalyst for initiating a new level of urgent, topical reporting... If doing a podcast on location in East Palestine is out of the question, perhaps you might interview a chemical spill expert regarding the criminal way this event was handled. Government agencies on site are wearing hazmat suits. These are some of the same agencies who are assuring people it's "safe" to stay in the area and drink the water. The situation is ripe with low hanging fruit to examine the the situation as a microcosm, an analogy, of what is happening and what will intensify in the larger, longer term context. Perhaps in 20 years when some academic writes a book on the cancer hot spots along the watershed and fallout region of this event, then it'll become a topic of discussion in the ivory tower. In a old movie with Kirk Douglas, there was a scene where the comrades of the protagonist stood up in masse and declared, "I am Spartacus". There's an opportunity here to communicate the message, on a visceral level, that indeed, we all are East Palestinians. And our children's, children, even more so.

[@annibjrkmann8464]

Can you explain in simpler terms how you comment is connected to the episode?

[@misterfixie6003]

@@annibjrkmann8464 No, he cannot. Haidt triggered something in him.

[@annibjrkmann8464]

@@misterfixie6003 Grow up and be a better person, all I am doing is asking him a simple question. I'm curious and want to know

[@misterfixie6003]

@@annibjrkmann8464 Now you've triggered me.

[@annibjrkmann8464]

@@misterfixie6003 Sorry, I just felt that you were inconsiderate to the person writing the original comment.

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

The Tower of Babel, which he talks about, was a warning, not a goal, in the Bible! It was saying that it is dangerous to have a Tower that unites everyone. God fragmented it to show humans that they are not God-like. I personally would rather live in a fragmented media environment in which I could watch this discussion, then, let's say, 1980, when there were only four TV channels and they would not have this talk on, or it would be on for 10 minutes, not an hour, on CBS. Can you imagine what politics would be like if we were all unified in one media silo?

[@barbcarbon9440]

So pumped to see that you’re talking with Jon! Can’t wait to dig in!

[@publicdomain1103]

Everything in moderation. Best thing my dad taught me. Like Jon, he was a bit of a ding a ling.

[@carbon1479]

I wish Haidt could unpack what he's saying about the Republican party a bit more because I get the sense that things are off on that side as well but it's hard to find logical patterns to pin down. I grew up in an (R) household, I used to like Dennis Prager a lot and had the sense that the parties were between crazy and stupid where the Republicans were the lesser of two evils but they really just seem incoherent these days. Some individual Republicans seem like they' know what they're on about, they're typically the variety that the IDW would get along with, but as a party it seems like a herd of cats that's almost checked out of trying to lead anything or move policy in any clear direction.

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

I love X (Twitter). But I'm in my 50s. But it allows me and others to talk about things that the corporate media doesn't want us to talk about. I also live alone and feel more connected to the world than I would if I don't have social media. It's a tool. Of course it can be used for bad but also good. Saying it is all bad would be like saying hammers are bad.

[@em945]

Wouldn't the topics being discussed simply be the process by which this civilization will collapse society wise? If it were not these issues, it will be others, and is others, many others. It just eats into itself. Then falls over like the poorly built multistory buildings in Turkeye and Syria when the inevitable earthquake arrives.

[@Sanulay]

Haidt has some excellent points and I like his book The Righteous Mind but overall, this talk was disappointing. On bothsideism: Sometimes, one of the extreme views in a debate just happens to be correct and everyone else is wrong. But even in that kind of a situation, it's important to understand where the other side is coming from. Understanding is not the same thing as acceptance or agreement. If people live in different filter bubbles and can't even talk to each other about important issues, you've got a problem no matter where the actual truth lies.

[@brianhawes3115]

Totally agree

[@TerryMaplePoco]

awesome

[@marcsimard2723]

Not impressed with Haidt Sorry It doesn’t resonate with my experiences as a university student Teacher and father of 4 spanning gen xy and z

[@tbyles]

The discussion by Haidt and Hagen of post modernism and deconstructionism is very poor. Yes these are academic fads that have insulted serious inquiry and ridiculed the notion of truth, and can be forgotten. But they are a part of a much broader and important reaction to the scientistic disenchantment (Weber) of the world. A reaction to the scientism that has emerged since the Enlightenment. The "interpretive turn" overall is a very important development in modern times and is much bigger than 'deconstructionism' and 'post modernism'. And it continues the project of rationality, but not in the simplistic terms of the 17th century. With Kierkegaard then Nietszche, the pure scientific nominalist outlook (that both Haidt and Hagens are coming from) has been shown to have shaky metaphysical foundations (by people such as C.S. Peirce, M. Heidegger, L. Wittgenstein, J. Searle). Long story short: got to go back to Aristotle (not Kant) who laid out three general kinds of knowledge: theoretical, technical and practical-moral. This last category, is belittled by today's nominalistic-statistics based scientists. Their zealous belief solely in this kind of knowledge ("science") is based on a radical individualism ("society" is just a word, it doesn't exist, as Frederick Hayek coached Margaret Thatcher to say, for example). Sadly, such a view completely dismisses moral-ethical knowledge as a kind of intelligence. It considers ethical behavior as just a "behavioral trait", a subjective preference of the individual, programmed by genes.

[@timulcoq]

A boomer punching down on younger generations? Color me shocked. The constant boomer complaining about first millennials and then Gen Z is very rich, given that the boomers were the antagonists in the greatest generational clash of the 20th century.

[@coweatsman]

The great thing about humans is our passion for solving problems. We are problem solvers but that is also the tragedy of humanity. If we have no problems we will invent problems or imagine them or fabricate problems. Humans were designed to build utopia but we were not designed to live there. We do not want "utopia". We want the problem solving involved to get there. Once there humans will suffer existential angst. The snowflake phenomenon of snowflakes is an attempt to achieve psychic balance in the light of an absence of problems. This is not just limited to humans. In a zoo we have utopia for animals. Well fed, no predators, veterinary care, water, everything. But the animals are unhappy, desperately psychologically dysfunctional. They act out in stereotypical behaviours. It occurs to me that humans have built for themselves a human zoo, a sort of utopia where all the forces of nature have been "conquered". There is no natural habitat for humans to return to because we have destroyed it and what is left can not support 8 billion people. It's a Greek Tragedy. Plot twist. The "utopia" humans have produced for themselves, especially in the west is only short term and will soon disappear for reasons well known to regular listeners of Nate's podcast.

[@zezze5136]

Tell that to all of the homeless, hungry, or people working multiple minimum wage jobs just to afford a dilapidated shelter and cheap shitty food stuff. Real utopia for them. Real snowflake of them to want more pay for themselves and better government services based on taxing the wealthy.

[@coweatsman]

@@zezze5136 Not a real utopia but the west a relative utopia compared to what has come before. The "snowflakes" I talk about are the elites of ivy league campuses who are not in any danger of ever being in a minimum wage job. The more esteemed the institution, the more shrill the woke politics. They do not campaign on taxing the wealthy but on their own feelz.

[@cliffkrolick221]

Johnathan check out Bhutan

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

The George Floyd video showing the cop kneeling on the GF's neck went out on social media. Do you think that should not have been put out and retweeted?

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

Trolls and Russian bots have almost no influence on Twitter. They are easy to see through.

[@eriol5639]

why is haidt talking about russian agents? That really took a lot of points off him for me.

[@kevinmeyers2611]

Twitter? No! It’s enough to have a phone with text.