Joni Mitchell Boxset: Europe (Optimal) Vs. USA (RTI) Pressing: Is There a Difference?

Vinyl Lovers feel free to join the Discord at: / discord
New Instagram Channel: / 45rpmaudiop. .

[@HoomanR17]

Looking at the deadwax info on Discogs, clearly they are using different metal parts. What does that mean? (a)Does it mean that Bernie cuts two laquers, one for the US and one for Europe? (b) If one lacquer then then who made the father and the mothers? I sense the metal pieces are created at each pressing plant independently. If thats the case, we would have to assume that two lacquers even created at the same time may not sound the same. I can't imagine that an organic material like lacquer is infinitesimally consistent. Again assuming they each create their own metal work, mothers, fathers, stampers.. all these steps and their intermediary components would therefore have been done differently , add to it different vinyl formulation, different machines with their own vibrational profile, their own heating an cooling cycles, and then throw into that mix the controversy of "polishing" by Pallas and/or Optimal, and you have a recipe for inconsistency between pressing plants.

[@louiscyphre2555]

exactly...

[@catified2081]

Don't forget quality control. Every factory will have different standards. I assume the German plant will have higher standards. LoL

[@anthonysmith4449]

I not sure if conclusions can be drawn from two different pressings. Maybe the optimal pressing was at the end of the stamper, 500/1000 limit? Sample of 5 each may be a good start. Take the best of 5 from RTI and Optimal and compare the two. They results might be closer then the conclusion Micheal has drawn. Still, I don't expect Micheal or anyone else to do this. So hopefully others who have both copies will chim in.

[@vinylrichie007]

@@anthonysmith4449 The end of a 500 run will be a better pressing than the first off the presses.

[@francescas6026]

Received my copy from the Joni Mitchell website. Love her and very happy with the pressing. Great video. Very interesting topic.

[@clkeene]

Me too! Did all versions come with the nice little print with the JMA Archives stamp? Or was that just for orders from Joni's site?

[@mp1450]

Thanks for that. Very helpful! Was thinking of the optima version but now rti is winning.. 😎

[@derickvillarino]

great video michael. these are ones we’d like to see. cheers.

[@stereo8893]

Oh Michael, thank you for this one. I love that you put your heart into your work here. It shows :) - Ray

[@ChrisLee-dz3uc]

For some reason I was sure the RTI version would be better for some reason. Glad you could confirm that for me, saved me having to order the Optimal to do my own side-by-side comparison. I swear, just when I think watching your latest video is going to cost me more money, you go and save me money. Great surprise!

[@memyselfmyvinyl894]

Always informative. Thank you.

[@eddiecucumber5342]

Fantastic comparison. I didn't even know there were two versions of this release. Based on your review I ordered the RTI version of the box set. Thankyou and keep up the good work. it is most appreciated.

[@Big-J-8579]

I would assume either pressing would be fine for most of us. As you said at the beginning, “I was happy with the EU pressing until I heard the RTI.” The differences are small and most of the time can only be heard on high-end rigs as you enjoy. I received my MoFi pressing of Supertramp Breakfast in America today. I really enjoyed it as I listened to it on my turntable. Then I popped the CD to compare the two. To be honest I could not tell the difference. The recording and mastering on both are top-notch. For me, the most important thing for getting great sound.

[@bassbymichele]

Thanks Michael! Was waiting for this video. No Stoughton tip-on jackets on the european version? Mike

[@ergloo6660]

The issue is as I understand the pressing technology there are many physical variations possible was it a hot day, early in the morning and the presses may not be up to temperature and so on, but yes it is a little worrying

[@SashaS2art]

Just ordered the RTI issue. Thanks for the information. Keep doing great works Micheal. Great channel 👍

[@liambr101]

Great video, it had never even occurred to me that the difference could be so big. Thanks for doing the homework for us!

[@jazzbumsmike]

Great video as always Michael! Another interesting comparison would be Sam Records Pallas vs Optimal releases.

[@gtaylor3350]

I have the RTI version of the box set and man what a great quality product, if you don’t have this you should get it now because I can see this being quite expensive down the road. I compared Blue to the more recent Kevin Gray cut and preferred the BG cut mainly because there is no tape or background noise, they were able to pretty much eliminate it entirely on this box set version. Fantastic quality, can’t wait for them to do this for her Asylum records. As for the difference in pressing plants, I wasn’t sure I really believed Chad Kassem when he talks about the difference a pressing plant can make but it does seem to be true, it’s all a game of inches I guess

[@SaschaAlmoneit]

A very interesting comparison, I can only agree. Unfortunately, the Jackets from my Optimal Version were incorrectly folded and two Records had scratches. So I sent it back and ordered it from Acoustic Sounds. That‘s a pity.

[@playbackamusicloversjourne8620]

Interesting video Michael. Do you know if the actual stampers were provided directly to the 2 pressing plants or did they make their own stampers from the mothers provided? If the stampers were provided directly to the 2 manufacturers and from the same mothers then it's a pressing plant QC issue for sure. If they each made their own stampers then it could be a difference in the quality of the plating as well.

[@yannick930]

I felt your pain mein Freund. Even here in France we know the quality of the German industry. It was painful to admit RTI was better this time I saw it :)

[@michaellourie4252]

Great video. Thank you Michael! It really is a shame that in many instances we don't know which version we should buy.

[@dmichaelelkins1]

I don’t know it it’s still the case today but back when I was buying imported albums such as the 60s Beatles albums, I always wondered why the jackets were typically less thick than what we were accustomed to in the U.S.

[@VinylGourmetTV]

Yes, each factory has a particular sonic signature, I was able to compare several pressings from the same mastering/cut/stamper over the years, from QRP, RTI, Pallas, Optimal, MPO, GZ, and others... even when everything else is exactly the same, the pressing machine, the vinyl formulation, and many other things, can change the sound characteristics and it can be heard sometimes very obviously. For that reason, sometimes for some projects, different pressing factories are tested and auditioned, and then chosen by that sonic signature... interestingly, the same happens with CD's from different factories, can you imagine that??? It's true... even if it sounds crazy hehehehe ;)

[@derickvillarino]

were your findings the same where RTI is better generally?

[@VinylGourmetTV]

@@derickvillarino actually yes, I usually prefer RTI, and I think my reasons are very similar to what Michael described in the video ;) But I was never able to compare RTI to QRP for example, maybe it does not exist (a pressing from both RTI and QRP using the exact same mastering / lacquer cut and from the same time period)? Compared to some of the pressing plants, RTI was so much better it was hard to believe... for example Record Industry and GZ Vinyl, sound like they have a blanket over the sound making it sound distant when compared to an RTI pressing of the same cut. Interesting stuff :)

[@michaellourie4252]

@@VinylGourmetTV Yes!! I agree.Record Industry lps do sound like they have a blanket over them. The 45RPM Pink Floyd Knebworth from Record Industry sounded distant and far away(US Version), whereas the Optimal sounded very up front and engaging(Europe version). Is it true, does Pallas polish the metal parts?

[@astolatpere11]

Replaced my somewhat crackly copies of these lps with this set and am very happy. To quibble, the Ladies of the Canyon cover should have been textured like the original.

[@leonidvolovik5203]

Where were your crackly copies pressed? My crackly ones came from RTI...

[@saarinmaki]

The Optimal box has also thick beautiful and sturdy covers - what I miss is an accompanying book or booklet with memorabilia and photos from the time and information about the inception and creation of the albums -sorry she is following the Neil Young official release series route in this regard.

[@albarton7189]

Grusse aus Houston. I have the American boxset and it’s wonderful except for side one of Ladies of the Canyon. The last song, The Arrangement, has a defect in the vinyl. It’s not just a scratch, but more of a circular area that kind of resembles a small insect, maybe an ant, about 1 cm in diameter. I was going to send it back to Amazon, but then I thought the next one could be worse. So I kept it and if they ever re-release a single album I’ll pick it up. But even with this defect, I’m still very pleased with the boxset and hope they release her later albums in subsequent boxsets soon. I would really like to finally get Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm, Turbulent Indigo, Taming the Tiger, Both Sides Now, and Travelogue on vinyl.

[@classicrock7890]

That is a one off fault. Request a replacement. You don't have to return for 30 days so you can swap out the good records between boxes.

[@albumofftheyear9881]

RTI would always be my favorite plant

[@choicetuneage9390]

I think if you bring the focusing point forward a little more you will have it. In this video, it appears to be focused at the back of your chair. Try bringing it to around the middle of your seat.

[@audiotomb]

The Blue release was Steve Hoffman and Chris Belman. I think it’s more open but more semblance in the vocals. Interesting insights on pressing plants.You really need to listen to originals which without any question are all analog and sound open I bought my box from Joni’s website so it is sprinkled with her Chelsey Morning pixie dust. Carey on

[@saarinmaki]

All four albums are BG -both the RTI and the Optimal box

[@andyt2220]

I think the older Blue you are referring to is the KG & SH cut, then superseded by the KG @ CA cut, now topped by The BG RTI pressing

[@drbryant23]

I have all (SH/KG, KG and the latest BG). The BG version is closer to what the originals sounded like in my view. But I actually prefer the SH/KG and the KG, which are mastered differently, so that there is a touch more bass. This is easy to hear.

[@jasonelkins6582]

Wow! RTI wins. There are a few instances where I have done shoot out comparisons and prefer the Optimal Pressings. Being a big Beatles fan I did 2 shoot outs. First I did a comparison of the White Album 4 lp box versus the 2 lp Anniversary Edition cut at QRP. I am aware of Optimal polishing their moving parts and that does do something to the pressing for sure. To my taste I prefer the Optimal pressing. Next I did Abbey Road, and again I prefer the Optimal pressing slightly as I feel some of the tracks on the QRP are too harsh. However on the Optimal pressing you do have to turn the volume up a little. So on your pressings the cutting engineer may have slightly up the eq hence your comment on the Optimal pressing being too harsh, which is surprising to me as Optimal always does a great job with their pressings. Ironically being in the US I think I have more pressings from Optimal first followed by QRP and RTI. But lately I have been adding a lot of QRP pressings from Analogue Productions so I am not sure now. I will definitely be adding the US Joni Mitchell Box.

[@analoguecity3454]

Even though I have bought box sets, I get a little nervous buying them! That's because it's hard in this day and age to get a copy that's not warped or scuffed up, imagine a box with 6 or maybe more! One defective disc could ruin the whole box! But I have to say in the last year or two, they have been getting much better!

[@joeharley8396]

A properly set up and maintained SMT (RTI) will outperform a properly set up and maintained Toolex-Alpha (Optimal) every time in my experience.

[@edwardhashimoto263]

The man knows of what he speaks

[@roscoejones4515]

Wow, an internet comment from an actual expert!🤤 Thanks Joe!

[@drbryant23]

Ladies of the Canyon in the US box does not have Bernie Grundman's initials in the dead wax. However, the EU version does. Not sure what happened, but it appears that Grundman did not cut the version of Ladies in the US box.

[@jabensergei]

Hi Michael, thanks for your review / comparison! Can you do some music samples video, so we can hear that too please. Very sad & bad and this explain that BN Classic series pressed at RTI also may sound better than the one pressed by Optimal. Are you planning to write to Warner / Reprise about that? Cheers.

[@razorback-mark]

Wow! What do you think the reason is that is causing the difference. Is it the vinyl formula or do the plants have the ability to make changes to the lacquer....... interesting comparison.

[@louiscyphre2555]

different lacquer cutting

[@funtobuild9968]

Thanks for video and comparison. I have the American RTI box set still unopened….just curious, on the inside of the box did they let you know what number of the 10,000 copies you have?

[@andyt2220]

Why not open it and find out?

[@Joooools5000]

Not sure whether to pick these up - have UK first pressings for Joni's first 9 LPs. Less likely if Optimal press isn't great. I generally find them to be pretty good, though not much better than somewhere like MPO. Optimal jackets are not good in many cases though - way too flimsy. I know people talk about hitting a price point, but an extra euro per cover passed straight to the customer seems like a better option than what they currently do?

[@bassbymichele]

I agree! After all, records are not goods you buy to save a few bucks. They're items you want to be in the best quality possible to cherish for the rest of your life

[@louiscyphre2555]

MPO is the worst pressing plant in whole europe atm...see the Ryan Adams or the Taylor Swift. Records like this would never leave Optimal.

[@Joooools5000]

@@louiscyphre2555 Fair enough. I have a few pressings of theirs and they have all been top notch. It's a mass-market plant so not surprised by what you say. I've just been lucky with them.

[@ivermec-tin666]

Thank you for the comparative review. I had thought I had purchased a USA made box, but the hype sticker appears to be on the shrink wrap, so now I am not so sure. I haven't opened it yet. I really don't want to own multiple pressings of these albums for space and cost reasons. That is why I intentionally sought out an RTI pressing. I don't see any indication on the box of the country of origin or the pressing plant, so now I am going to have to call my seller before opening... Personally, I have yet to experience an Optimal pressing that bests an RTI pressing, all else being equal. QRP is really top tier in my experience, but you pay for that. And, Pallas does beautiful and impeccable work, again, in my experience. I will never buy an lp pressed at Rainbo intentionally again. I don't know what they are smoking in Nashville, but it is definitely not quality stuff.

[@AudioTnT]

I have RTI version & sticker was on shrink wrap. There were 2 defects on the Blue record (last track on each side), so I was a bit disappointed.

[@vinylrichie007]

The pressing plant is one of the most important aspects of the sound of the final product. If not the most important.

[@martinjn2920]

Good to hear that if you had the European version you would hear a great sound, only if you have both would you realise that the RTI version is better, although sound quality is very subjective so what one perceives as better another can perceive otherwise. Having said all that am I the only person not bothered by this release, really cannot get my head round Joni’s sound. Great video and a great topic for further discussion as it will occur again.

[@luigitardini7954]

Hello Michael, very very interesting comparison, thanks. Have you already compared the USA and european editions of the recent "The Asylum Years"? If so, it would be very interesting to know your revealing opinion. Thanks in advance and all the best. Luigi (from sunny Italy)

[@catified2081]

Thanks for reminding me to order this box set. Fun fact...... I live in Canada and my local record store only can order from the German company Optima. Strange.

[@dhkado]

Hello Michael, your findings are very interesting. I am curious if you compared the other albums; if so, did the results consistently favour the RTI pressings? This would be an interesting test to rule out whether it is a "fresh" stamper that makes the difference. For example, if the Optimal record was pressed near the end of a worn out stamper vs an RTI record with a relatively new stamper. This is always an issue for myself when comparing different pressings.

[@Michael45RPM]

This is consistent threw all albums

[@dhkado]

@@Michael45RPM Ah, thanks for the reply Michael. This confirms this as a truer test than just a "one off" comparison. I agree this complicates matters for collectors and those just looking for the best way to purchase great sounding vinyl. As they say, everything makes a difference.

[@bradleykay]

Ok, now QRP needs to repress the 2014 Beatles mono box so you can compare Optimal to QRP.

[@papabear1417]

Spinning my cd boxset of the Reprise albums. They do sound a little harsh at times. Still magical though.

[@classicrock7890]

I'm sure it's vinyl formula. I hear the same difference between Tone Poet (RTI) and Classic BN Jazz (Optimal) both cut by Kevin Gray. Unfortunately too costly and impractical to import everything to UK from USA. A lot of titles that are a lot worse where USA gets AAA cut and in Europe it's from digital. I was surprised being Reprise these were not pressed at Pallas like the Neil Young records. Best plant? I've had my fair share of bad pressings from them all of late. Optimal are the worst but purchased few MPO or GZ product recently.

[@VagueRANT100]

With your connections within the audiophile industry you should be able to PRESS YOUR OWN VINYL...my ultimate fantasy would be to see you dressed in a hermetically sealed spacesuit on the spotlessly clean factory floor limbering up with some yoga exercises before confidently and fearlessly HAND PRESSING each vinyl release listed on your worksheet.....ah, a dream...only a dream

[@leon9021]

Im guessing the lacquer cuts vary a bit. It would be great to hear some samples if you could upload somewhere however.

[@user-qz7zj6ut2s]

RTI, QRP, Optimal, Pallas, MPO, 東洋化成… best of best?

[@princeofjanox]

I am asking for information about the thickness of the box from the USA and from Europe. thank you

[@ayyowhat]

Is the one on the joni mitchell website the rti pressing if I'm ordering it in the us? Stupid question I know lol

[@jimtubbesing4685]

I’m glad the RTI won as that’s what I own. I wish he’d said what the famous third pressing of Blue was as I Discogs probably lists dozens. But again, glad RTI won. I found this because a majority of my Xmas orders are pressed in Germany by Optimal. While he said all were dead quiet and I know it’s true of my Joni RTIs, I have a few Optimal that are only decent, not dead quiet. But I’m going to place my Black Friday order anyway because the music I want happens to be pressed by Optimal.

[@amosperrine1909]

Thanks for this, as I being in the US, I'll stick with the RTI. On the topic of pressings, I find that the EU pressing of Dylan's "Rough & Rowdy Ways" to be superior to the US, and the US is very good.

[@BeenieSpooner]

Was thinking about getting this box because I really like the cover art of the LPs and the box. It's so beautiful. But the music itself is just not my cup of tea.

[@classicrock7890]

I am massively puzzled by the thicker US box. I looked at the 'EU' sleeves and mine are thick tip on jackets, likely imported from US. They fit in the 'thin' box. If the spines were wider they would look wrong like a lot of cheap European pressings. Spines being wider than vintage pressings is a thing that bugs me. Pressings in the box have Optimal matrix numbers.

[@andyrobinson2653]

Will you be doing the new Asylum? Debating on this one.

[@drbryant23]

I prefer the older Kevin Gray cut to the newer Bernie Grundman. I like the fact that the KG cut adds a touch more low end, without coloring the sound too much. Listen to the first 60-90 seconds of "California" - the bass on the Gray is bigger, but tight, so the kick bass drum provides a nice audible thump as the music proceeds. That said, I think that the original, and all other reissues, including the BG RTI cut, are more subdued. So the BG may be more faithful to the original recording.

[@princeofjanox]

Ich habe eine Anfrage - wie dick ist die US- und Europa-Box? 35mm?

[@michaelt2469]

Interesting video. One comment..it seems that you had a fixed focus on your camera, but when you moved out of the sweet spot for focus, you went out of focus.

[@louiscyphre2555]

Did you hear side A of "Song To A Seagull" from the OPTIMAL press. Non Fill issues all the way. I have bought now a RTI Version from jpc germany and this is way better.

[@gustavoricci3940]

What about the inner sleeves? Are the same in the US and EU pressings?

[@louiscyphre2555]

they do not have the same stampers, so they messed it up again. Same with the Fleetwood Mac a decade ago. If Bernie Grundman is involved, this has happened a few times now compared US to EU. not sure why this never happend to a Steve Hoffman or Kevin Gray Vinyl Remaster tbh. so the US is the go to now. thx. I listened to my EU Box Set, returned the first one, because of non fill issues. mine sounds OK. nothing special. did not hear the Blue LP. maybe I give it a try tomorrow. things like this sucks. thanks for the info.

[@bmclaughlin01]

I had to return the European version, the sound is good but full of defects and hairline scratches,, really poor quality. I think there is a quality issue at Optimal. All the blue note classic series I have purchased also have a quality issue.

[@darrenlund3835]

The Canon 5D is a superb camera in the right hands :-) Switch the focus from 'Auto' to 'Manual'

[@Michael45RPM]

it’s Not That easy

[@michaellourie4252]

Is it true, does Pallas polish the metal parts?

[@JardinagemOrg]

I kind of suspect the RTI and QRP are the best of the best of vinyl pressing.

[@louiscyphre2555]

I just compared the Blue 2007 RTI Press from Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray with the one from the EU Boxset and the Kevin Gray/ Hoffman is another world. You only need to hear the first song. The Kevin Gray remaster is so much better. The details, the guitar high ends, the voice! wow this voice is complete dull and not in the centre on the Grundman master. Unbelievable. I would love to hear the 2021 Grundman US Press at RTI.

[@anthonybernard3689]

How loud do you play the vinyl?

[@charlesgund4812]

Shame you didn’t tell us if they are the same cut...and if not, who cut the European optimal version. In house optimal engineer?

[@classicrock7890]

They are the same BG cut. AAA.

[@NiklasMalmqvist]

Ok.....maybe not lock the focus. Did you get a new camera? Was your Discogs private or public?

[@Michael45RPM]

My Discogs is on private

[@Derfunkmeister]

We always got the shit quality in Europe especially when it comes to mastering. The European versions of American Artists usually sounded flat and lacked the low end and 3 dimensionality . That's why I always buy the US pressings except if the Band has recorded it in Europe.

[@hansgeorgeder7380]

Hey Michael, what about the price between RTI and Optimal ?

[@Michael45RPM]

They are the same

[@hansgeorgeder7380]

@@Michael45RPM Thank you, Michael !***

[@maximilliangiarratano1485]

Do you collect anything else besides Lps?

[@needley]

Don’t you ever buy originals? I have all her albums as original vinyl pressings in near mint condition. Never wanted to listen to any other pressing.

[@BattManion1979]

You probably bought both...all that money....gotta cut down on the stupid tattoos I guess