Jordan Peterson - Female Hero Archetypes

[@Born_Yashish]

"I spent a lot of time thinking about that" - Jordon Peterson

[@KajsaBernhardina]

Yuval A. Birman He brags about what he imagines himself to be good at. We all do :)

[@OP-xi1hv]

@@KajsaBernhardina What are you saying he's bragging about?

[@OptieX]

Yeah, he spends a lot of time thinking about a LOT of things, as he says. Weird. If he does, is his IQ 180 and he has overclocked brain?

[@my_family_journal]

@@OptieX we all spend a lot of time thinking about a lot of things.

[@malayrojak]

@@my_family_journal I used to spend a lot of the thinking about useless things. Trying to change that...

[@brianawhatley7119]

There is some truth to the concept that beastly men can be tamed by the influence of the right woman, but it's often misinterpreted and that causes girls to go on an impossible quest to save the rough guys. In beauty and the beast, I don't believe Belle tamed the beast. He saw her and realized that to gain her love, he would have to change. He tamed himself. Yes, he did it FOR her, but she did not tame him. He tamed himself. She didn't think of him as anything other than a monster until he started changing. If she had loved him first and tried to change him, he wouldn't have changed because he already had what he wanted. I hate that she is thought to have changed him because girls who sincerely love rough guys and see the potential for good in them often enter into unhealthy relationships with them. The men already have what they want so they have no motivation to change. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for a guy is to let him hurt and live your life. If he loves you, he will rise to your level, but never stoop to his.

[@murucshaharzar]

truth was spoken.

[@BatsAwesomeIn2030]

There is coherence in what you say, what I think is female mistake is they think they can change rough guys, the trick is don't let him completely have you until he shows sign of changing. In beauty and the beast, Belle didn't let have beast her love until he shows sign of changing. Like you said when he completely have you, there is less motivation to change. But again such things are quite harder to see.

[@marioeid930]

Wow! I have seen this over and over! My ex was like that. Its usually the younger woman tho. Good analysis

[@thebigredwagon]

Sage wisdom.

[@Hhhh22222-w]

Sounds like simp shit, never take romance advice from Disney, it's all fantasy, women want a gentleman in the streets and a beast in the sheets

[@earthbjornnahkaimurrao9542]

My mother told me she was inspired by Sarah Connor from Terminator 2. She is now 61 yrs old and still goes to gym and goes jogging.

[@SeyhawksNow]

Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley kick so much ass and never once do you think "man this is so feminist." They're just so badass

[@donnadizucchero]

Cheers! I look up to those ladies like your mother! May she have amazing and long life!

[@moarroz]

@@SeyhawksNow i named my jack Russell mix *RIPLEY* she lives up to her name a lil too much geez

[@xDMrGarrison]

Your mom is a cool lady :P

[@vociferonheraldofthewinter2284]

She got to a lot of us. The mother who would do anything - give anything - to properly prepare her child for the world to come. That's who we all aspire to be.

[@coldstuff9784]

"How to Train Your Dragon" switches the archetypes around, with Hiccup out to tame the beast while Astrid is out to kill them. They both manage to still be masculine and feminine, respectively. Such a great series and they make a great couple!

[@hillanderson6503]

The beast and Hiccup? Or Hiccup and Astrid. In BatB the love relationship is between the reformed beast and the woman. There are important differences there. "Let's get precise" Great movie, and I feel the relationship shows the variety of personality that can work in a hetero relationship but I don't think it has the same themes as BatB or story at all.

[@coldstuff9784]

@@hillanderson6503 "Taming the beast" is an old story telling cliche, not a bad one, and it isn't always romantic. Hiccup uses an internal strength to solve his problems rather than external, choosing to tame the dragon rather kill it. He doesn't become lovers with Toothless but friends. A different kind of love saves the day. There are also stories where it's a girl taming the beast in a non-romantic way, "Jane and the Dragon" comes to mind. I just enjoy when stories get switched around, like when Eowyn stabs the witch king in the face rather than hoping love will turn him good. There's a really good video on youtube that talks about this in a biblical perspective by "Note the Good."

[@k.m.clarke]

You could see he was trying to hold back tears when talking about his grandchild. That's really sweet.

[@CurtHowland]

I listened to his 12 Rules book as audiobook, which he narrates. There are many times his voice is cracking and he is pushing through to be able to read the truly hard parts of the stories, such as the courage of daughter dealing with her intense pain for years. For that matter, I cried to hear those stories! How much harder to read them out loud?

[@thelazyguy3735]

In video "Why Young Men Feel So LOST In Today's World" he cries on the radio while giving a speech. That really moved me

[@dm3402]

@@yiras4512 in what way? Him saying its sweet, JP holding back tears?

[@yiras4512]

@@dm3402 Yes ☠️

[@danielickert4498]

The way I see it: archetypical male heroes are those who have strong male characteristics, but also develop the female parts of their bring. The results are very powerful, courageous, determined but yet compassionate male heroes. It works vice versa for women. The archetypical female heroes are those with a strong sense of compassion, caring, unconditional love but also developed their inner power to express as much of their female qualities to this world as possible. I personally find these kind of women to be extremely attractive.

[@u235u235u235]

slay the dragon, bang the hot chick. that's the male hero. get over it.

[@sadiaswr]

Like cinderella.. the take made a great explanation on cinderella's under valued qualities which are truelly heroic

[@lilypond5158]

@M Muss*Cough* I'm guessing he means that a lot of women now have been thought that you should be ashamed of being feminine, and be proud of being masculine, so many hide their tenderness or compassion (stereotypically femine traits) And it's empowering to recognize those as strenthes and use them to their full extent. I think the show The Good Wife does this very well btw.

[@Yetipfote]

Yes! Like King Leonidas and his wife in 300 e.g.

[@kestrelraptorial689]

Quetzalcoatl was a male feathered serpent-dragon in Mesoamerican mythology and was the one deity who kept trying to get the people to stop practicing human sacrifice. Ultimately they never did stop, but Quetzalcoatl was the one in stories to chance trying to get them to. So even though the idea of him being the Mesoamerican Jesus is probably an inaccurate reading, he was the closest they had to a Christian symbol.

[@OrganisedPauper]

Women developing the masculine side later in life makes sense to me as a 55 yr old woman. Now my children have left home and I'm post menopause I'm far more assertive. Having no vulnerable dependents to keep safe means I'm more likely to put myself first and speak my mind. I'm also less giving, which is no bad thing. Lower prolactin (edit, I meant oxytocin not prolactin) levels help. I'm quite ruthlessly cutting out extraneous things. It's also nice to have some headspace to do more deep thinking.

[@yakopro49]

Your first sentence is true but I wish younger women could learn to be more assertive earlier in life thus preventing a lot of lifes heartache and pain. Its funny how women/girls mature faster than males early in life but only to become more masculine later in life. An assertive women in my opinion is way more attractive due to some sort trust factor tangled in the mix ... I don't know if that made any sense. Lol.

[@rgf3403]

@@yakopro49 agree, i believe that however most of the time as they become more assertive, and develop masculine traits they end up alone, being excluded by most female groups. also at a young age if they more mature their more likely to not have that many partners interested in them or being “popular” as they do not seek attention and have their own goals.

[@rgf3403]

@@yakopro49 also i believe insecure and immature man feel intimidated by intelligent, independent less agreeable women. So again difficlt for them to find a partner

[@pattycakes4672]

Having age and the wisdom of experience, an intolerance to BS, are an amazing experience.

[@sophiejones304]

Masculine traits are can develop more through experiences. When we become mothers we become more masculine in my opinion. We are then push to grow in all aspects of our being because of our love for our children. We become not only the nurturer, but also the protector and the provider of what that our children needs. When we give to others then only then our true strength and abilities are discovered and are able to grew and honed. Not that motherhood is the only way to gain awareness, but I think motherhood is the most efficient and effective way to get to what God intended us to have/to be COMPLETE, which is being like Him, having both the attributes of the masculine and the feminine; a complete being.

[@asen5083]

We have Greek goddesses such as Artemis and Athena who are independent types and Athena was actually a patroness of male heroes, helping them on their missions. We have Hestia who never married and who in a way was an inwardly focused, spiritual type, goddess of the hearth. Other goddesses are relationship/motherhood-oriented types such as Hera and Demeter, there's young Persephone that captures the youthful, vulnerable feminine. And we also have Aphrodite, of course. There's a book on the subject called "Goddesses in Everywoman" by a Jungian analyst, Jean Shinoda Bolen. It's not all virgin/mother/old wise woman typical stuff. Greek mythology is a great source of a variety of female archetypes, maybe not classic heroes, but c'mon Athena is just awesome :)

[@YamiKisara]

Thanks, I'll check the book out!

[@umiluv]

For me, it was the journey of pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood. Learning humility when being pregnant and having to ask for help. Giving up the self in order to benefit a greater good for your child and family; giving my body to my baby for two years. Becoming feral when trying to go through childbirth without an epidural; experiencing a level of pain that I never knew was possible. Overcoming fear and anxiety of having to have major surgery to deliver. Dealing with the fear and anxiety of trying to be a good mom. The marvel and awe at experiencing how your own body is capable of so much and yet is so fragile. Moms live the women’s hero journey in real life. It’s just never told in a way that’s inspiring.

[@TheHelenhunter]

And that's already the case when all of that goes well and right. Now imagine going through all of that while also working your way out of hell at the same time.

[@yourmamaboo]

The other way around I was surrounded by notorious people in my pregnancy yet that awakened the Hero in me I was your typical fragile lady I still have that side but lost a big part to it & alas lost my baby too Baby daddy abandoned & there was no way to survive the emotional and physical trauma. Tough times bring the best out of you !?

[@Brunette3030]

As a mother of six, all natural childbirth each time, I can say this is absolutely true. We have our rite of passage, overcoming fear and pain and difficulty and then experiencing triumph, built in.

[@VELVETBUNNi]

And this is on period 💯

[@juliesteimle3867]

There are some legends of women taming dragons and taming monsters and rescuing captives. I don't think women have a slaying trope. Female archetypes involve a lot of sacrifice. If you think of the Hans Christian Anderson fairy tales, the original Little Mermaid and Gerta in the Snow Queen, you watch the journey of a female character that suffers a lot to save someone. It's in Greek legends with Eros and Psyche as well.

[@mmkkad]

But what's heroic in taming a monster ? Monsters are meant to be killed by heroes. Then womam comes and wants to tame it? It's more like a Stockholm Syndrome

[@nofybn7794]

How is it stockholm sydrome??

[@mmkkad]

Caring for the oppressor.

[@nixeradicatus]

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[@mmkkad]

+Nix Eradicatus Sure, put the spying whore into enemy's bed - it's common tactic in history of war. However I don't see any virtue in it.

[@beelzibubbles]

Jesus Christ: Dragon Slayer

[@Angela-pj5xy]

We have lost some of the heroic hymnology like "Christ has risen from the dead: Conquering Death by Death: and on those in the tombs bestowing life" Think we could benefit from bring out some of the the more 'heroic' hymns and songs from the first 4 centuries that have sort of fallen by the wayside.

[@sybillestahl8646]

Beelzibubbles I think Lewis was trying to reclaim some of that when he made Aslan a lion.

[@williamholland9395]

If you read revelation 12 as a future event, thats literal

[@iansamuel1811]

all this dragon slayer talk got me feelin: 👆

[@xpointkiller]

I mean thats how you unlock the rune platebody.

[@Woodside235]

I think what people get so caught up in when talking about archetypes like this is that "feminine" and "masculine" are metaphors to an extent. Sure, females will tend towards the feminine, and males will tend towards the masculine, but it's not that simple. Even Peterson says that an individual of either sex can embody either, both or neither, but people still get upset at the perceived pigeon-holing. As an aside, it reminds me how in general people get to caught up in statistical trends. Trends of demographics in statistics are descriptive, not prescriptive. Some people will see some statistic which says, for the sake of example, younger people are more likely to prefer pop music. This doesn't mean that a young person MUST like pop music. It's merely a descriptive trend, and isn't there to tell people how things "should" be.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

" Statistics are descriptive, not prescriptive " - I'm writing that one down.

[@evernynemarions567]

You become a hero(ine) when you are alone and everyone and everything has abandoned you and yet you still choose to make the right soul choice despite it all. The walls I have put around my heart is the dragon protection that keeps out those so eager to steal away the pure and innocent part of me left in me. I am both characters in one body. Its not about destroying the dragon but about realizing that its a defence mechanism that should be integrated into one being because without one or the other the innocent will be destroyed and the dragon powerful will never feel or be able to let anybody close so that's where I'm at right now

[@Chloe2000mm]

Yes, not being able to rely on anyone else forces you to become strong and independent.

[@davc7570]

Are you borderline ?

[@aimandurrani2228]

dav C why do u say?

[@jaysonmuzuruk6604]

@ she's right. Your ability to think abstractly and have vision must be weak, or you're so absorbed by your own experience, that you throw it at others any time you can't deal with the negativity in your life. Much love.

[@vociferonheraldofthewinter2284]

Self-sacrifice is the symbolic representation of both sexes. I can't tell you how many war movies I've seen where somebody sacrifices himself for his brothers. For his nation. This moves my husband like nothing else. Where my husband and I have a philosophical disconnect is when we debate what is worth the ultimate sacrifice. He'd sacrifice anything for honor. I'd sacrifice my honor for those that I love. I cannot count how many times that's come up as a point of conversation in our marriage. But that's why Mary's sacrifice is considered so great. For a woman to sacrifice her child for something bigger is THE ultimate of ultimates.

[@angelgonzalez2203]

As a man, I can relate to your husband. I've seen that in my dad and also in my mom. I reckon that both sides have something to bring to the conversation and maybe that's what makes things work. I'd be willing to die for honor and wouldn't find it uncommon if my partner decided to die for love.

[@orangegeorge8678]

It's beautiful to die for honour, but stupid. Sacrifice for love is the only sacrifice worth making. A man who dies for his country dies for honour. A man who dies protecting his wife dies for love.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@orangegeorge8678 Honor is the human race's... check and balance... fire extinguisher... pick your metaphor... but it is CLOSELY related to love, might even be called the offspring of love. You cannot have honor without having a love for something greater than yourself... because you cannot have honor if you are not willing to sacrifice things that you want FOR yourself, in order to serve the greater good. Honor is what keeps those who are stronger and/or tougher from using those abilities to ABuse others. Honor is, among other things, the knowledge that MIGHT does NOT make RIGHT, that the end does NOT justify the means. Without honor, we Americans would not have a Bill of Rights which guarantees that not even the strongest GROUP can or will take away the basic rights of even the smallest and weakest individuals. (Yes, other nations have their own laws which serve the same function.) Without honor, there can be NO social progress, because without it, those in power WILL misuse that power... like Hitler, Stalin, etc. Honor, IMO, is a basic required "ingredient" for civilization, because civilization relies on the vast majority of people to behave in ways which allow us to (mostly) peacefully coexist... which is itself a rather basic form of honor... "the honor system".

[@alchemist6819]

@@orangegeorge8678 quite similar to what I feel lol and I am saying that being a Male.

[@alchemist6819]

@@Nyet-Zdyes great point.

[@AstralFrost]

Beauty and The Beast is my favorite story. Watching it, thinking about it, hearing others describe it, always makes me well up. I relate to it so deeply. He's expressed a desire to speak at greater length about Beauty And the Beast, but unless I've missed it, I think he has yet to. I sincerely hope that he breaks it down in detail one day.

[@aliceinbrill3761]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fobOmnmud7ujkK8

[@sophiagomez5619]

"Im so happy about that" *has the most neutral expression ever to grace the earth*

[@Saskaruto16]

Katara from Avatar is really the best example of a female hero IMO. She never pretends that she isn't female, and completely embraces that part of herself. In fact much of her development is to better take care of those around her. A more defensive protector like a mother bear to her cubs. She also isn't combative in a competitive way, competition works differently for Women than for Men and this is shown in her favour of diplomacy and combat style. She isn't fighting to be flashy or out power her opponent, just disable their ability to hurt her or her group.

[@Saskaruto16]

@@ffrszyyu Hell no. Definitely not lol. Kora is a much worse show for a large amount of reasons, and she is definitely a large part of the reason why. Her character and a lot of elements of the show are great examples of the problem with the ideas modern media wants to push.

[@PrismCasillica]

That tracks. And the one time she embraces the chaotic side of feminity she scared the hell out of everyone.

[@YamiKisara]

@@Saskaruto16 not neccessarily Korra's character, it's the lack of writing experience of the bryke duo and their overinflated egos that ruin the show. Korra's a wonderful character to be handled by someone who actually knows their stuff. Remember: AtLA was completely written (minus some finale nonsense) by the Ehasz couple, not Bryke (they only came up with the world etc., which they did wonderfully, but they can't write a story if their lives depended on it).

[@YamiKisara]

When it comes to Western media, particularly in the animation/comic range, Katara is definitely a great example, possibly the best. In terms of all media, I dare say Scarlet from Gone With The Wind is the best example - she faced everything life has thrown at her head on and never once failed to stay completely gracious and feminine while at it. Now, if we take a look at Japan, pretty much all their heroines are strong while staying feminine (albeit ranging from wallflowers to tomboys) - Mikasa Ackerman, Riza Hawkeye, Faye Valentine, to name a few, all among the strongest characters of their respective stories, yet all completely feminine.

[@liannapfister8255]

@@YamiKisaradid you just use the word “gracious” to describe Scarlett O’Hara?

[@RioSynMiedo]

Kali is also a hero. Kali destroys demons and by drinking their blood she purifies the earth from their sins. She might be terrifying but only to the weak who let themselves be manipulated by demons. Also, she is an appeal to her husband Shiva who, by his spiritual strength, will sooth her horrific anger and help her return to her original form, Shakti or "mother nature" as you want it. If mother nature is offended, only a impeccable mind can do something.

[@Angela-pj5xy]

Not only has the goddess Kali, historically received human sacrifices it has been a problem as recently as 2010. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8624269.stm

[@sim.frischh9781]

Isn´t Kali soothed by Shiva letting her sit on him?

[@badlaamaurukehu6781]

She has a cool belt.

[@Frictionfriction]

Rio Syn yes

[@jasonwhite7905]

Rio Syn, heroism is usually defined by the hero's cross. There are some elements here, but not clear. The hero's cross is a phenomenon where the hero and the villain share one major thing in common, each thinks they are the other. The hero worries he is the villain, the villain thinks he is the hero. Remember, the term Superman didn't originate in America, it came from Germany 1930s. The Nazis clearly thought they were the heroes. We know the reality. The fast track to villainy is to think you're the hero, and the fast track to heroism is to acknowledge you will NEVER be a hero.

[@thecaptain1708]

After watching this, I understand why Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor are such good characters, they are both essentially a Mother/Warrior hero.

[@krampus7520]

Man, those two were my first thought when i saw the title, it's cool to see other people also applying it

[@rvhill69]

Ruth, the Moabite (faithful) Esther (bravery) Deborah ( strong matriarch, or female leader type) are all female Archetypes

[@PrypeciowyHovnozer]

don't forget about Pupinia Steward

[@petersteenkamp]

Lilith (female demon) is an interesting character too.

[@gamma00crucis]

Good point! All very earnest but very feminine too.

[@aglayamajorem9546]

Peter Why is Lilith a heroine archetype?

[@aglayamajorem9546]

Robert Hill Judith is another good example. The book is often found in Catholic Bibles though.

[@mairedaly4548]

I think there's an interesting pre-pubescent female heroine archetype. She is Lucy in 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe'. Hermione in Harry Potter, Little Red Riding hood. Usually, the youngest sister in a family of princesses. Ofelia in Pans Labyrinth (Del Toro is very clear she is the great female heroine archetype and talks about this in interviews on the dvd).There is a suggestion that before puberty her sexuality is not a distraction, and her physical prowess is at it's height (think pre-pubescent gymnasts).

[@vesper9547]

It's so heartwarming to hear him talk about his grandchild.

[@ubermom]

A common theme in fairy tales is the girl's heroic quest to rescue her brothers. She always undergoes great hardships, suffering in silence, misunderstood and accused of horriffic crimes and only being vindicated in the end as her labors free the brothers from the evil enchantment.

[@bellaluna423]

I always think of the Wizard of Oz when I think of the female hero archetype: She encounters chaos, adventures into the unknown. Her house falls on the Wicked witch, which I see as her encountering her shadow. She's asked the questions "What kind of witch are you?" She faces her masculine side "Oz" - freeing and redeeming him in the process, slays the Wicked witch, learns the profound lesson that she has what she needs within herself all along. Then, she returns home to communicate what she's learned on her adventures to her friends and family. Dorothy is a "masculine hero" and she is female, and nobody questions it because it's a perfectly timeless archetypal story. And, she also fulfills the feminine archetypes that Peterson describes in this video, by taming the beasts she encounters.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

You've given a really good example of a female hero, a convincing well written character; it's odd that all these years later no one can come up with another, they're all so fake and unbelievable. I think Ace from Doctor Who was another good strong female character, but she was back around the 1980s. As well as a lack of female heroes, I think there's a lack of decent male role models in the mainstream, uncle Phil from the fresh prince was the last one that I can think of.

[@emilyjones2201]

Interestingly enough... In the book of Revelation, MARY is the one who literally confronts a dragon in the Apostle John's vision. In the gospels, JESUS is the one who is compassionate to the sick/outcast/destitute.

[@josephs.3372]

Emily Jones you would be wise to not take his Biblical knowledge so seriously. He has almost no sense of the context in the Bible.

[@theheavygamer430]

.

[@melancholy348]

Or, the woman with 12 stars above her head is the Church (12 apostles), and she doesn't confront the dragon, she hides from it. Also a valid interpretation.

[@thewanderingrey8830]

There's a high chance that the Revelation was a result of John chewing on too many mushrooms though. Abandoned in an island can get pretty boring...

[@tedarcher9120]

The Wandering Rey what joghn though? Church talks about 3-6 of them, and the gospel of john has at least 2 authors

[@strategicgamingwithaacorns2874]

I'm surprised nobody has talked about mama bears in the comment section.

[@Just.Bean.]

My mother will forever be one of my biggest heroes

[@kueapel911]

There is a common archetype for korean drama which is about a rich, handsome, smart, but arrogant, hard to approach, and harsh man accidentally meet a below average woman and fell in love with her and she can't help to notice him too then try to grow the man into a better character. Korean drama then put a variety of variables around that archetypes and make it a huge hit all over the world, especially with girls.

[@kayholand_]

that is the story of all soap opera everywhere in the world, same shit story with different sent

[@rebekahsquires2073]

Fantastic balance is the key! Gentle kind and generous doesn’t equal weak. You can definitely be both strong and gentle. Hence men’s paternal nature and women’s maternal nature.❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@Asdfghjkl-us5jr]

My favourite female hero is Mulan, then Esmeralda. I can really relate to Mulan and I admite Esmeraldas kindness

[@milacruz3970]

Yes! Mulan is a great example

[@cristobalrojas3712]

Yes, good example. Mulan didnt go to war because she wanted to kick some huns asses. She went yo war because she cared about her father and learned to fight to save his life.

[@ChamorruWarrior]

As a man who was in the military I know zero men who joined just cause they wanted to “kick someone’s ass” lol

[@cristobalrojas3712]

@@ChamorruWarrior Because Men care too, they have ánima, that is what makes them complete humans. But movies today look for "strong, independent, kick-ass female characters" just for its own sake.

[@decespugliatorenucleare3780]

mine is lisa ann

[@Marta-zm8oe]

It seems that at the end of all these examples, there is just one heroine archetype, the one that sacrifices, suffers and denies herself. Similar to men. But women do it in a passive way. Men do the actions and are known by their actions, not their suffering.

[@jordanwilliams2031]

If it makes you feel any better, the suffering of men being considered irrelevant isn't great either. I try to think that these ideals are sacrificial in some way for the sake of offspring

[@blahhoop8280]

Marta López see Joan of Arc

[@jenniferhill8776]

thank u Marta

[@adrianarroyo937]

The archetype of the monster tamer does not revolve around sacrifice or suffering, does it?

[@rocketassistedgoat1079]

That I feel, is the most accurate breakdown, thankyou. Also, as someone said above: men slay the beast, women tame the beast.

[@Imunclean]

A Hero subjugates his selfishness not only for his children, but for all people. And lets say that's masculine spirit. = Be humble A feminine spirit subjugates it for her own flesh and blood. Something that is made of her. = Be compassionate We all have both masculine and feminine energy inside of ourselves, and we should all always be mindful of what both archetypes represent, and act in accordance.

[@diegog1853]

I want to point out that two of the biggest heroines in cinema, Sarah Connor from terminator, and Ripley from alien. Fall very well into the heroine archetype Jordan described, where instead of fighting for a man and slaying a beast simply to destroy evil, they both fight to protect a symbolic or biological son or daughter. And you can see that all over fiction, men figthing to protect women and women fighting to protect their children. Even Samus and Bayonetta fought to protect some sort of child after they formed a maternal bond with them

[@AK-jt7kh]

Aww..Just this once I was hoping for more from Dr. Jordan Peterson. Not that it’s his fault - I think there’s just not much there. As a girl growing up though I always wanted to “reach for something”, and I had nobody but males to look up to. Since the cool stories were all based on males too, I just assumed males had all the cool qualities. They were strong, smart, heroic, brave, resourceful - all of it. Females, meanwhile, were defenseless, emotional, never understood anything that was happening, and their big claim to fame was either being beautiful, or stupidly sacrificing themselves in some fashion because as a weak female, they weren’t capable of doing more than that. So, obviously, I grew up a tom boy and it took me a while to get in touch with my femininity. I don’t regret the way I went about life, but I do wish there’d been some women to look up to, because it would have given me more self-esteem as a child. Disney movies have changed a bit now so females can be a little more proactive, which is nice. I feel though that we’re still in our infancy of developing story-worthy heroines. A lot of the heroines just seem like watered down versions of heros. Or female knockoffs of male heros. Here’s what I’d like to see more of, personally: - Bring back that old trope of “woman’s intuition” - Bring back the “wise wife” who always knows the right answers - The heroine that will go to hell and back to save a child (Like in that Aliens movie with Newt) - The young girl that assumes the mother role in the absence of the mother herself - The intellectual, creative girl/girls whose gifted thinking changes the world (like the female British war gamers in WW2) - The woman warrior who defends her family (like the wives of Samurai were trained to do) - The female mathematicians, inventors, and analytical/predictive crime solvers (looking like normal people and not mannequins) - The female thief anti-hero (but nothing in a cat suit) - The female child prodigy And this one, which may be something of my own idealistic mind, but: - The girl that befriends the brotherhood and in doing so, brings a lot to the table (since most women want to be friends with men and society exaggerates how “impossible” that is) - The girl who comes of age by learning the value of hard work and bravery (as in Spirited Away) I wish we could get at least some cartoons, movies, and TV shows where the females aren’t rolling out of bed wearing a face so laden with makeup it would take at least 40 minutes to apply. Some real hairstyles would be nice. Honestly there’s probably plenty of female heroines these days for women who are in highschool and up, but I think there’s still not a lot for girls in gradeschool, and, personally, I think that’s much more important. That’s when young girls really struggle with feelings of inferiority because you’re battling a lot of fresh, raw feelings of sensitivity and empathy among a pack of wild, uncivilised kids and a bunch of mean little boys who, by in large, haven’t developmentally caught up with a girl’s emotional milestones, but are learning to form boy-packs and value masculine qualities. It’s very easy for little girls to get a hit to their ego and feel ashamed of their gender at that age. I think some little girls can fall into the trap of labelling themselves as “pretty princesses” defensively, and they end up hiding behind that coverup to their insecurity for a long time, even to the extent of playing dumb. For some, it eventually just defines them. I think that’s unfortunate. I’m happy I escaped that and learned to value the deeper worthiness in women.

[@ashleybriggs1198]

this comment resonates with me so much. I’ve ended up just disassociating with the female gender. all my idols are men.

[@AK-jt7kh]

@@ashleybriggs1198 Aww thanks Ashley. Same here! About my idols being men. I think the only reason I didn’t disassociate with my gender was that when I was growing up, you could be a tomboy and it wasn’t considered a symptom of your sexuality. My parents didn’t do or say anything about me playing with action figures and dressing like a boy... once I hit puberty and became more self-aware and hormonal, I started trying to blend in with the other females. If my parents had criticized me when I was a tomboy kid, though, I’m sure it would have caused a metric ton of psych issues. I was really insecure, quiet, and alienated from the social world I grew up in. My parents acceptance of me was the thing that made me believe in myself and aspire to better myself. That’s why I get frustrated with parents who think they need to control their kids with criticism to prevent them from “turning out gay”. I knew some kids with parents like that. They all turned out to be drug addicts, alcoholics, or stoners. Parental acceptance is a huge part of a person’s psyche - at any age. Feeling that parental acceptance is conditional makes people neurotic 🤷‍♀️ I wish people just had common sense these days. But I also wish we could see an end to this new movement of labeling yourself. It’s really unhealthy.

[@embii1650]

I completely agree. Especially in younger childhood I was much more inspired by male heroes and ‘boy roles’. I was extremely active, very competitive and always admired adventure and quests. I distinctly remember an older woman coming to my house and watching football with my family and for the first time I perceived a more dominant masculinity in a woman. I also remember learning about Queen Boudicca in primary school and thought she was really cool. Nearing puberty I adopted more of my feminine traits (I think I began to notice increasing differences between boys and girls and I also became attracted to men). Recently I have been in a relationship with a woman and felt more inclined to embody more masculine traits - in every relationship there is the need for both masculinity and feminine traits, although i would not necessarily define it as ‘roles’. As I get older I do see the advantage of having a traditional relationship and nuclear family although I maintain that same-sex relationships can be fulfilling and meaningful in lots of ways. I like your idea of ‘the girl who hangs out with the boys and brings something new to the table’ trope as well as the girl prodigy. I hope other young girls are able to recognise aspects themselves in a range of archetypes, both male and female. I really hope this trend of inculcating children with critical gender theory quickly disappears because I worry that there are cases where young ‘tomboyish’ girls are taught that they are not in fact not girls and to me, this is an insult to the complexity of womanhood and individuality . We are all made in the image of God and should be encouraged to integrate our whole being to take up our positions and responsibilities in society.

[@kayholand_]

totally right I had the same issue growing up, always the guy the savior, center of the story, womans always usless, only beautiful... what trash

[@lacolimba2777]

I loved the way he announced the birth of his grandson, you could see the happiness through his eyes

[@iamnotafraidiwasborntodoth5688]

The virtues are neither feminine or masculine and in order to become a saint one must correct themselves and bring their natures into subjection. The masculine tendencies lean one way and the feminine another but the saint is all round perfect - the masculine must develop that which comes more easily to the the feminine and the feminine must develop what comes more natural to the masculine. When reading the lives of the saints if you took out the pronouns you would not be able to tell if they were masculine or feminine, .... this is why Catholicism has always been miles ahead of the rest of the world in equality - all are require to make themselves perfect.

[@XOChristianaNicole]

I am not afraid, I was born to do this - It’s not that they are neither masculine or feminine- it’s that they are both.

[@iamnotafraidiwasborntodoth5688]

Ms. Chris Cole - good call.

[@darthsonic4135]

Sure, but he’s not talking about the Saint Archetype. He’s talking about the hero and heroine archetype.

[@iamnotafraidiwasborntodoth5688]

Chris Stuart .. a smart person understands those are the same thing

[@darthsonic4135]

I am not afraid, I was born to do this I think that a better way of saying that is that the hero and heroine archetype MATURES into the Saint Archetype if they are given a chance.

[@andreaperezflorez3356]

So what about Athena the Greek goddess of war? That archetype has been around for way longer. Love Peterson but I really feel that he's insulting female heroism by reducing it to giving birth

[@ENoob]

Well, Athena isn't the only deity of war in the Greek pantheon. Ares is the main player (male) and he is viewed quite negatively in the literature as destructive and vain and unpredictable. Her interventions in war are also much less direct than those of Ares, so she does embody a slightly different approach. Athena doubles as the goddess of wisdom too, even Zeus asks her for advice from time to time. She possesses the aegis, which is a fundamentally protective magical item rather than anything else. She is also featured in the story of Arachne where her skill as a weaver of cloth is highlighted. It would be really interesting to try to apply some of the archetypal thinking to the various groups of deities that have been and are worshiped around the world.

[@sararodgers8122]

I’m not offended.

[@Jmay411]

What's wrong with that? It's also symbolic for the fact that anything that's given to us is given life! Even the Male heart. When a woman is a "heartbreaker" she operates more on her masculine side than her feminine. To be pregnant is the most intimate experience a woman can experience. May not feel so intimate.

[@snakedogman]

I don't think he ever reduced female heroism to giving birth. But giving birth is a form of female heroism.

[@OrganisedPauper]

@@sararodgers8122 Me neither.

[@marianam8643]

I find this example of women archetypes to be incomplete. The women who slays a dragon must be developed. I don’t mean to take away at all from the male dragon slaying archetype. Not at all. But we must, in the future, develop their character more. The women archetype is not fully defined, it is unclear. At present, women are seeking to be men. No, this is not right. Men are men, and power to them. What is it to be a heroic woman?. Is it just patience and suffering. Can’t be. No. But what? I hope we find it.

[@FiniteVoid]

The hero's journey is just coming of age which can really apply to anyone just swap genders.

[@thewanderingrey8830]

Modern writers have tried it but it rarely sticks. Like for example Eowyn from Tolkien's lore that slayed the Witch King. Eastern lore would have a few female warriors and kings like Mulan and so but they are the exception rather than an archetype, typically rising into prominence because their men counterparts of the age failed to do their duty.

[@ChibiBoxing]

Aldus Huxley The queens that ruled along great leaders. Not all of them, but I can tell ya, those women were even stronger mentally than his male counterpart.

[@ChibiBoxing]

I think a woman should talk about the woman archetype, thats maybe why it feels incomplete..there are variations in how we see things.

[@kayest.claire932]

I think Fiona in Shrek would be an interesting character to examine on this topic. She's capable of saving herself, but she doesn't. She waits for her true love to do it. It's also interesting that her parents are the one's who put her in the tower, she went willingly. She has to learn what love is and she has to learn to accept herself before she can find her happily ever after.

[@availablenowondvdvhs794]

I love this man so much :)

[@JJ33438]

My grandmother raised 5 children (lost 2) in late 1800's early 1900's alone with no job and a father who ran off with another woman and never returned to help. she was an amazing survivor and instilled her 5 kids with religion and responsibility. Then my own mother raised 3 children after a divorce and worked in a sewing machine factory and again instilled in us kids religion and responsibility, then I myself, raised one child in same circumstances. Women alone do jobs on both sides of the coin, the feminine roles and also the masculine roles. Everything from carrying out garbage, to analyzing and investment, to talking on a an equal level with doctors, as well as doing the annual taxes. These women are unsung heros ....never lived in welfare, never took a handout...did it all on their own. Society does not recognize these women as archetypes. but I sure do! I am so in awe and proud of my Grandma and my Mom. Women who were logical, responsible, loving, strong in character and morality.....real true heros.......yup they are my archetypes!

[@chickennuggets7710]

i think the 'beauty and the beast' story can be seen as the representation of the logos as serving the feminine. Usually JP describes the archetypal masculine hero as the figure the confronts terrible chaos and turns it into habitable order and so it's implied the feminine hero is the figure who (on behalf of the rejuvenating chaos) confronts tyranny (beast/negative masculine) and liberates the world from its dominion. This also maps really nicely onto the idea of left-leaning political philosophy being related to the feminine/chaos because the left is chiefly that which challenges the hierarchy.

[@virginiamontgomery5672]

I've spent a lot of years using the Psyche Eros myth as my model for the female hero archetype. Robert Johnson and a few other Jungians have written extensively about this myth and the tasks given to Psyche.... so much of them are about how the natural world comes to her rescue during each task. Her love for Eros requires that she disobeys the rules and it's such a rare and extraordinary story for women. "She" by Robert Johnson is a beautiful read. Thanks Jordon.

[@JoshyHendoMan]

Just talked with my wife about this last night. We were talking about why we enjoy movies like Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman, but feel like they fall just a little short. I told her Jordan Peterson would have an answer. And. Here KZbin algorithm saves the day.

[@cindyl2444]

Why do you think they fall short?

[@rustworker]

KZbin served an ad for ‘Frozen’ before this, which was one of Peterson’s pet hates.

[@fancyphantom8103]

Males heroes: heracles achilles Traits: strong and confidant Female heroes: athena queen of sheeba Traits: empathetic and diplomatic.

[@shadearca]

Athena was the epitome of strength and confidence. She crushed the giant Enceladus with the island of Sicily, had no problem decisively stepping in and kicking Ares ass whenever it was required knocking him unconscious in at least two occasions, was one of the few gods who directly confronted Zeus when he wanted to change fate (he was thinking of actually sparing Hector during the Trojan war although it was his destiny to die) and was ready to fight her uncle Poseidon over Athens until a peaceful solution was mediated.

[@jesseward568]

I actually feel like there are a lot if female heroes tbh. Just have different personalities. But heroes are pretty much both male and female

[@camel7624]

Does all female heroes have to be feminine?

[@malignor9035]

So... she braves the horrific dilemma of The Creator of Life. she tames The Beast to craft a prince of him. she awakens her inner strength and takes control of herself (her "kingdom"). Probably a coming of age. Sounds legit.

[@malignor9035]

Family is, by and large, the greatest source of Human fulfillment. Becoming a dad sure made be realize this. Community & philanthropy is less so, but a sufficient consolation prize. Wealth and power and a life of leisure are all hollow by comparison (unless you get to share that wealth by making memories with your family, and helping the community).

[@lanagordon5669]

Turdeau When the vast majority of women in history spent their years between the ages of 15 and 45ish perpetually pregnant and breastfeeding because there was no effective contraception until 50 years ago it should be no surprise that the female archetypes reflect those circumstances. It's a product of our completely unique modern circumstances that we look at female archetypes and think, "That's it?"

[@EmanCp8r]

Hahahahaha... Dude, everybody knows these things, the challenge is not stating them or stating them with taste and tact. Behind every great man is a great woman! Learn this simplest of lessons and you'll go far in life

[@malignor9035]

Funny, Jane, because I'm the stereotypical husband who wakes up at 6 AM every day, works, and gets home just in time to kiss my kid goodnight, take the dog for a walk, eat a cold dinner, do some chores, and then (around 10 PM) I get to negotiate personal time against sleep. My wife gets to sleep in till 7-8, takes care of the house & daughter, volunteers for the dog rescue foundation, volunteers for the school, and on most days she gets a nap. During the summer while I'm at work, my family is at the beach, or at the park having a picnic. I'm not bitter, because I *want* my family to have a happy life. That's what love and responsibility is all about. My 4 hours of commuting and long hours in an office cubicle pay for it, and that's exactly why I do what I do. Truth be told, I make my work fun and I hired people I like working with, so I'm quite happy too. The point is that the "stay home take care of the kids make dinner" was *her* choice and she's very happy with it. There's no self-serving in those roles when everyone is supporting each other. My wife tried the clubbing scene for 4 years and it just made her lonely. She worked her ass off and got into management and she found it just annoying. This is the life she wanted to try next, and she says she's happier than she's ever been.

[@malignor9035]

Can you please answer the question, instead of increasing your hostility? I'm just asking for some examples. If there are some really good ones, and I can find decent case studies for them, I'll happily adjust my argument accordingly. Hostility, and demonizing traditionalism, won't do anything useful for the conversation. In order to defeat an argument you have to try to understand it, empathize with it, see the appeal. Put yourself in their shoes, _properly_ instead of defaulting to emotional rejection (which is giving into one's own weakness). Once you've done that, THEN annihilate it with a full understanding.

[@superroydude]

To the people asking what about Kali and Inanna and Anat and Sekhmet? Yes these goddesses were known as warriors; symbols of war in fact. But none of those goddesses can be considered archetypal heroes in the same sense as the archetypal masculine. An agent of war is not the same thing as a dragon slaying hero because one brings about order and the other chaos. If you read their descriptions you'll realise they're almost identical; they comprise of the attributes, sexuality and war/death - very much embodying the feminine archetype. The trope of chaos (among other things) has always been embedded in the feminine archetype (often paired with sexual passion). Because the archetypal female embodies nature in all its range and so she is both chaotic and beautiful.

[@sulijoo]

Aren't heroes by definition without gender? A man can find Florence Nightingale or Emmeline Pankhurst heroic. It's what they do, what they achieve that matters.

[@BrainWitchSiv]

sulijoo you are correct. Heros are people who risk their own wellbeing for the sake of those around them willingly. Its the act of selflessness that defines a hero.

[@SheepWaveMeByeBye]

The question was about heroic archetypes, not heroes.

[@MrChickennugget360]

hero's are masculine heroine is feminine so no its not "without gender"

[@gitman3486]

All heros are heros, but when people say someone is their hero they often mean the kind of person they aspire to be, and that is often gendered by statistical appeal. Nightingale is a deeply caring figure, traditionally a feminine virtue and more likely to appeal to feminine drives than, say, Jake Allex who won the Medal of Honor after single handedly bayonet charging a machinegun nest and capturing 15 prisoners

[@Edbrad]

Pankhurst a hero ????? lol

[@Amateur_Pianist_472]

Interesting. I've always been interested in masculine and feminine hobbies like dresses and jewellery but also building things and driving big cars. I don't think women become more masculine after kids, just more tough. As for attraction. Of coarse women find muscular men more attractive, it shows health, discipline, it's sexy. Just like a curvy woman is sexy to a man. Isn't it sexy for men to see a female hero archetype? Rather than one who sits and does knitting? Even though I'm straight I can see a strong female figure as more attractive than one who just goes shopping.

[@Jess38044]

I've seen the "shopping-type" woman absolutely compete and cut a man down before, and I've seen the "female hero-type" woman support and embolden their man. This sort of thing is more multi-faceted than that, imo. There's more than one way to create competition and division. Every individual -- and I've seen Peterson bring this up himself in one of his lectures -- is made up of degrees of masculine and feminine traits. How you embrace and use your individual traits is up to you though. We as a society have a lot of different ideas of what should be upheld and what should be squashed flat, and what that is exactly differs depending on what subcultures/political alignment/philosophical viewpoints you're looking at. Also if you're both lifting weights, for example, that's honestly just another thing to bond over and I think that's great. If you're both into knitting, also cool. I don't think finding a carbon copy of yourself is a good idea, but if you can have really in-depth conversations about shit you both enjoy, then I think you're also more likely to be able to have respectful discussions when you disagree about stuff. Both are important; the former brings you together and the latter generates respect and helps you grow more as an individual and a couple. But hey I could be entirely wrong, I certainly haven't figured my shit out entirely and I've been single for over a year

[@gabrielageorgieva1285]

Alternative Me A woman can believe in her man, support him, be nurturing and still slay dragons on her own. And she does it. I don't see where is the problem. It has always been like this and it always will. For God's sake, this whole life we live is a f*ckin dragon that has to be managed every single day, both by men and women. And no, it is not a competition, it is a collaboration, or at least it should be. That is the idea of marriage. Oh, and by the way, why do you think that women don't need someone to believe in them and to be able to see how great they are, how bad ass they are etc. The truth is only weak men see a woman's strength as a threat. A strong man will like it and respect it.

[@jenniferhill8776]

I give high fives for the man who wants to compete with his mate. Im in board. Screw the nail polish & knitting

[@andose88]

Gabriela Georgieva If that man is weak, then nurture him to have strength.

[@ravinemaxil8565]

@@gabrielageorgieva1285 preachhh. Amen.

[@samwallaceart288]

Jesus is both the dragonslayer and the healer archetype in Jordan’s analogy; if anything, what he says Mary exemplifies is in fact better exemplified by Jesus; Jesus defeated evil and death with love and life, not a sword. I just don’t get the analogy here.

[@wiceorc5105]

prohecies says that when jesus returns he will be with full rage. he comes with all who has died as marhyr. dont expect him to be nice, he holds the key to everlasting judgement. he can send people to be tormentet forever. and most terrifying thing is that most of the people will go hell.

[@calicoD]

Sword of truth ?

[@OP-xi1hv]

@@wiceorc5105 most people going to hell for what god made them do? sound fair lol.

[@wiceorc5105]

@@OP-xi1hv Everyone is sinful after they learn to distinguish good from bad (around mayb 7-9 year old). After this you need to repent ur sinful life and join Jesus party. Even I would go hell if I didnt ask Jesus to take me into salvage. I used to be two faced man, pretending to be something else I wasnt I was misleading people into doom because I was bitter and alone. But I repent.

[@OP-xi1hv]

@@wiceorc5105 That's interesting but quite scary. what made you repent and turn things around?

[@johnfist6220]

There are female heroes of the active, warlike kind in Greco-Roman mythology - Atalanta and the Amazons, and warlike female deities - Athena and Artemis.

[@sarahpersonalexcellenceguide]

The earliest stories ever written tell the epic hero’s journeys of the incredibly powerful Sumerian goddess, Inanna. In “Inanna and the Mes” she “steals” the powers of the gods, repelling monsters as she escapes. As the feminine archetype, she already has compassion, but her experience with the god Enki gives her knowledge. She returns the hero, with the wisdom to share the divine gifts with ALL the people. (You need both compassion and wisdom to be truly wise.) Her story’s incredible, considering it was written millennia before the same kind of tale about Prometheus; but also considering how rare female heroic stories are in history, after male heroic stories like the “Epic of Gilgamesh” take over. Dr. Peterson covers a lot, but there’s something we haven’t understood about these stories. So I’m working on videos to explain what we have been overlooking!

[@marieferret8868]

It's interesting he for once addressed this subject. Though I am a little disappointed that the female heroic figures he described are either related to maternity, or the "civilizing" of their man to mould him into a better person. As if their personal fulfillment mainly (if not exclusively) revolved around their contribution to those around them through some form of self sacrifice. Why is the development of their own self not addressed? Why does their worth seem to almost only come from their potential to improve/nurture others? Moreover, I personally think you can only improve others if you've got yourself figured out first: so how do we first reach that state of completeness of the self, so that we can proceed to give to those around us?

[@ines3770]

In my opinion, a man can not respond tgis question.

[@Lechteron]

On that last part. "There's a heroic subjugation of selfishness that goes along with that that's characteristic, deeply characteristic of the proper feminine spirit." Makes me think of my wife. When she was writing up the birth plan for when we had our son she emphasized in it, really was the focus of it, that if any thing were to happen and they had to choose to save either her or our son she explicitly told them that they were to save our son. I thought I couldn't love her any more than I did but that was breathtakingly beautiful and pure.

[@bathysphere1070]

I note that where you see a female hero in culture she tends to be very sexy. I think that this is because this is not a woman's conception of a hero, but that of the man who is writing the story. That is, it is a fetish of the writer.

[@MrDzoni955]

Yes, and she is also able to kick ass while wearing high-heels, when in real life a woman can't even run in them. She has everything that makes her an object(of lust etc), but is also independent and strong making her a perfect uncatchable fantasy. You see some of the best female heroes in some children's shows, because they(the creative team) can't sexualize them too much even if they'd like to.

[@deadarmd]

Bathysphere then why do women devour women magazines with cover stories and page content filled with attractive celebrities with huge mammaries advertising female product and make up?

[@havesomegratitude]

Yeah, it's almost like most people actually want to be attractive. Perhaps somebody is a tad bit resentful

[@lucyhardman2267]

*1HumanKind* The female archetype of a model is six feet tall with a jutting collarbone and no breasts who is typically underweight, and most women in Hollywood have to exercise hard to look good in front of the camera and eat abnormally to stay a size zero, not to mention both men and women are plastered in stage makeup onscreen. Neither gender's so-called "ideal" is realistic, but sadly that's what the 21st century has done to both sexes. Compare that to the more robust women and less muscular men of media in years gone by, even up to the late 90s, and it's much fairer and, in my opinion, way more attractive for both genders. The whole size zero thing struck at the turn of the millennium. In an ideal world, we could backtrack from this to less high maintenance body types for everybody. :-)

[@tyskbulle]

Watch the "Jordan Peterson: What women don't understand about men" and he explains this better then anyone of us could.

[@angelgonzalez2203]

That was a beautifully articulated answer. Thanks!

[@caramelunicorn8023]

I am male but have felt like my feminine side (archetypally) was always more well developed earlier on in my life.

[@francieodendahl9351]

Hurrah for Jordan Peterson💃

[@amyjones4362]

In many folktales the female heroic archetypes distiniguish themselves through hard work ( Maid Maleen, Cinderella, Vasilisa) or intelligence (Scheherazade, Morgiana, Huryo) or endurance (Udea, Psyche, Thumbelina) as well as beauty and kindness. The motives can also be similar for male and female hero types - wealth, power, love, good marriages, righters of wrongs, keepers of peace, sheer vengefulness. As you might expect there are more male war hero types but even here there are many female war hero types to be found too (Maeve, Hippolyta, Draupadi) just as you find males like Orpheus and Adonis and Diarmuid Ua Duibhne famed for their grace, creativity and beauty. Prince Charming types are as much a prize as any King's daughter.

[@sleeplessinhelsinki4734]

Jordan 'I've spent a lotta time thinking about this' Peterson. Lol Much love tho🙏💚

[@Kira1Lawliet]

Anybody else think that, aside from the accent, Peterson sounds almost exactly like Bob Odenkirk (Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad)?

[@josephm3788]

Holy shot!!! You’re right.

[@Edbrad]

Lose the music at the end... :S

[@lubystkaolamonola529]

Examples of good women heroes: 1) Gerda from the "Snow Queen" 2) Elisa from "Twelve Wild Swans" 3) Belle from "Beauty and the Beast"

[@OP-xi1hv]

they all got dogged by the male hero though.

[@josepholsen9831]

Joan d’Arc, the maiden of Orleans. There is no male hero in her story unless you count God.

[@rylewx]

Wow. Elite flow he was on there, offering quite a fresh perspective. Excellent clip. I love the information about archetypes. Such a great medium for us to learn virtues relevant to life. Thank you for sharing.

[@gracieladelosangeles7392]

As a childless woman I agree with him. The level of sacrifice in motherhood is heroic, I could see it since I was a kid and then decided don't go for it.

[@olgakuranova7986]

If we are talking about female archetypes I think great example could be Vasilisa from Russian folklore. French folklore has a lot of amazing examples of female characters: donkey skin, a story of Little Annet (I'm not sure how it's called in english, I read it in another language), Italian fairytales too - they are less known but they portrait amazing cunning and resourceful women.

[@margekrumping]

I like the outro music but please wait until he’s done talking.

[@sharmpadayachee8939]

🎊 Congrats Sir... Grandpapa... Yay. You are blessed.. I love you Mr Jordan Peterson..God sent you to help me be a better mother and a good parent. You have become my guru. I'm a single mother to four children. And I play your videos often so you help teach my children.. Since I hate telling them that they come from a dysfunctional family because their father isn't present. Anyway this is off the topic.. But having real Male teacher around like you imparts wisdom..is a blessing. Its clarity to so many life issues. I thank you so much.

[@kbg12ila]

This is why Daenerys I think is such a great female character to me. She represented the mother archetype completely. I've definitely read up on some of Jungs theories but I never came across the whole masculine and feminine parts of the Psyche before. That's something I've been thinking myself. That all humans have different levels of human traits, which can be categorised into masculine and feminine. Also that coming to a balance of all human traits is not only what makes for a developed society but a developer individual.

[@manfrombritain6816]

she did until she went overboard and perfectly demonstrated the danger of the oedipal mother/anima possession. she literally invited the barbarians inside the gates of civilisation and burned the thing to the ground pursuing utopia, just as is happening in most of the western world right now with pathological mothering of people through political devices

[@YamiKisara]

You surely have heard of the animus and the anima before.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

" I like children ", yes I like children as well I can remember a rainy day when all the adults were miserably walking around, then I saw a kid jumping in a puddle with a look of pure joy on their face, children show us there's still joy and wonder to be found in the world around us.

[@Supreme_Lobster]

We out here slayin dargons

[@waindayoungthain2147]

Thank you 🙏🏼. I love all of your videos.

[@maxoverridemax]

Ellen Ripley. Not overly masculine one could argue feminine. But a total badass. She has the best line in any movie that's ever existed. Alien 2 at the end.... "Get away from her you B!T(H."

[@PurpleLightsaberAlex]

Human mother vs alien mother fighting for their children in space. It sounds like a primal setting even though the movie's story is set in the distant future.

[@zandi3426]

Higher understanding shows us that every person can posses and develop their unique blend of divine masculine and feminine qualities.

[@blackpanther-wr7mm]

He also needs to delve into the female antihero.

[@JoeKawano]

"Hooray for that!" 5:15

[@baasmans]

Pippi Longstocking Buffy the Vampire Slayer Xena the Warrior Princess There have to be others in antiquity. Goddess Athena? Boudicca and Joan of Arc, but they were historical figures, not archetypes... Also, basically every IRL girl I've ever lusted after.

[@neonatalpenguin]

Characters like Buffy, Wonder Woman and Xena are always held up as examples of strong female role models, but that type of character often has supernatural powers making her physically stronger than men. Or she has completely unrealistic combat skills wherein she can beat up 30+ Navy Seals at once, despite being built like someone's PA. I wonder why there aren't more female characters like Sarah Lund or Brienne Of Tarth, who display qualities like honor, deductive intellect, or a drive to do the right thing. Are they essentially women who are copying the male Hero's Journey?

[@AlreadyDeath666]

baasmans How about Eleanor of Aquitaine? She did more than both Budica and Joan of Arc combined

[@FiikusMaximus]

baasmans do you know what Boudicca ACTUALLY did? Look it up its messed up

[@granpaNurgle]

Atalanta is a fantastic ancient woman, a champion of Artemis. The Amazons are a great example of warrior-women too, their name means something like "without breast" - they removed them as to use their bows properly. Camilla, from the Aeneid, is another example of a strong female (she was the Latin's greatest fighter). There are so many examples, unfortunately most people only vaguely know about Heroes like Heracles and Achilles, when they form such a small fraction of the Mythic characters...

[@ginastarke2]

Dame Ragnell ( Gawain and the Green Knight), Ayla, from the Earth's Children Series.

[@Devon_maloy]

Maiden, mother, crone - in no sequence nor timing . So impressed with JP’s answer

[@elizabethl6187]

Boudica!! Ellen Ripley!!

[@BASEDinMaine]

Elizabeth L, good ones!

[@gracewheeler20]

So many classic fairy tales and epic fictions were written at a time when the power females have was unrealized. They were oftentimes portrayed as more docile receiving creatures. However, nowadays archetypes are so often more varied, the mixture of the diverse inner workings is uncategorical almost. Greek myths are an exception, but even so, many powerful women were portrayed as virgins which is not as important now.

[@siriusnoir2995]

Tolkien's Eowyn? 😊

[@Mrfailstandstil]

Sirius Noir she's a dude basically

[@diana.diamond]

beautiful especially the beauty and the beast archetype. i really can relate

[@trequor]

Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones is the best, modern example of a female hero i can come up with. She is extremely feminine and extremely powerful. She is the MOTHER of dragons and assumes a very maternal dominance. She is the pinnacle of strong, FEMALE characters. Note: i do not consider examples of characters who's gender is unimportant to the character

[@ScarletDearest]

that's cool as long as you aren't considering maternity and femininity to be the best/only traits for female heroes to have. there are plenty of perfectly unfeminine women doing great things.

[@trequor]

ScarletDearest No, but they are the best FEMININE traits for heroes to have. A female hero who doesnt do anything exclusively female is just a good character, not necessarily a good female character. Same for masculine heroes versus just male heroes. It all depends on the type of story being told

[@mjc394]

I'm with you. Game of Thrones has the vastest array of female heroes I can think of to date. Although many would agree that Daenerys is at the top of the list, there are many strong examples to choose from.

[@applemyomg]

Game of Thrones doest hide how cruel people can be towards females. But ironically have the most impressive female characters of all fiction. Lady Olenna (queen of thorns), Ayra Stark, Caityln. People who call Game of Thrones misogynist don't know what they are talking about. You hardly see female heros with that level of capability. They are always fawning over cute guys, weaving, smiling or something..

[@redstar7292]

I recommend. The ancient Greek tale, the Odyssey and particularly the challenge of the Axes.

[@jw5117]

I think that what Jung says about the female needing to develop her masculine side later in life is insightful. *In spite of how much society wants to discard this idea, do you kind of feel like the stereotype that men are more inclined to be interested in systems, ideas, and, in general, the things that matter, while women tend to invest themselves in more trivial things like gossip and drama, is to some extent accurate?* In films, the men are traditionally portrayed as composed and in control, while the women are erratic, passionate, irrational, and need to be controlled-or, often, saved. Of course, all men and women are different, and a lot of these older cultural cliches are over-embellished, but I don't think it's right to dismiss them as inaccurate. There's a lot of evidence that men tend to be more logical and women more emotional. Not to testify to the accuracy of the MBTI test, but there's a significantly higher percentage of males who test as T (thinking) types and, conversely, women who test as F (feeling) types. You can even see a pattern in the types of occupations men and women tend to choose. *I think that the male archetype is more developed than the female archetype because, in order to have an interesting hero who fights for something that matters, the hero needs to have that masculine element of logic, or the voice of reason.* They must have a desire to understand ideas and systems in order to control outcomes, using that logic. That's not to say that emotion doesn't have its purpose in doing great things, but, if you think about the two extremes of logic and emotion, the one that will reign supreme without the help of the other is logic. Men are better at keeping that emotion in check while logic, their dominant function, takes over. As a female, I test as a T type and, from a young age, I've always had a natural urge to design and control things, as well as think with logic over emotion. I've also noticed a lot of random masculine tendencies in myself. However, as I got older and started to like men, I kind of felt the sort of feminine chaotic emotional state taking over at times-wanting to be taken care of, a desire to be held down and controlled-which directly contradicts my regular temperament. I think that women in general, regardless of how much of an intellectual affinity they have for logic and ideas, have a biological proclivity for being an irrational mess of chaos and emotion that needs to be tamed. *The gentle, submissive nature that characterizes being ruled by emotion makes women in their primal state too soft to assert control over anything.* This might be kind of weird, but one of the masculine tendencies I have is that I'll often derive pleasure from mentally assuming the role of the man when thinking about some sort of sexual scenario, and understanding exactly how, say, spanking a girl (or just dominating her in general) is gratifying and arousing. (I would say I'm pretty heterosexual, to clarify, and also fine with being female.) *But, in order for me to get sexually aroused in my own body-or, more precisely, assume the role/perspective of myself in the sexual encounter, which is essential if I want to engage my physical body in the fantasy rather than just my mind-I have to transition my mental temperament into my submissive and emotional side.* Sometimes, if I'm indulging in the fantasy of a sexual romantic relationship for too long-in order for me to get turned on by the relationship, there needs to be the dominant/submissive element-I start to retain a bit of that gentle, compliant mindset outside of the fantasy, which affects my ability to be assertive and sharp in everyday life. This phenomenon usually only happens subtly and goes away, but I've attributed various things to it under the few extreme cases where it's become noticeable. If the submissive mindset transfers over into my non-sexual life, I'll become a little shy (because I'm unsure of myself) and fall into somewhat of a mental slump where I have less desire to conquer ideas and I struggle to generate new things. When this happens, I can get lazy and succumb to a lot of hedonism. *I think this connects to what Jordan says in a lecture about males tending to want to work more and manage things all the time, while females want time to relax and to tend to less rigorous activities, sometimes mothering children.* (I'm not saying mothering isn't difficult, but it requires more of a maternal instinct rather than logical planning.) The problem for me when I assume this state is that, without constant intellectual stimulation and exertion of my creativity, without mastering a system and rigorously devising order, I get bored. Eventually I start to loathe myself if I start to become submissive to, not only a man (or the idea of one), but to life. I need to find a balance between these two states. Anyway, back to what Jung says about older women needing to develop their more masculine side: I think that every female does have a deep-thinker, logical, assertive side, but, as a younger woman, it's easier and more fun to let the submissive, chaotic side run free because a.) it's in your biological nature, b.) it's easier to be irrational and intellectually stagnant, and c.) you want to indulge the dominant/submissive role-play (it kind of is a role-play that's manifested in real life) as much as possible while you're young and hot. *I'm not saying women aren't intelligent when they aren't mentally masculine, they just aren't pouring their intelligence into meaningful things, which takes discipline and control.* As women get older and physically stray from that sexual ideal, the appeal of focusing on the trivial becomes less apparent and the desire to immerse the self in understanding the complexity of the world becomes greater. Some adults, even men, never grow out of the concrete, materialistic phase and I've noticed that these adults tend to be the ones that gossip about neighbors or express disapproval of a bunch of random things. Getting back on track, I think women may actually have it slightly harder in the modern world, not because they are oppressed, but because they are faced with the struggle of switching modes all the time, between submissiveness in romantic relationships (at least heterosexual ones), and dominance in the workforce. You don't want to give up either one, but they require such opposing requests from your psyche. Men can just go from asserting control at work to asserting control in the bedroom without an internal crisis. *In order to have an appealing female archetype, I think it's essential for her to be good at balancing these two mental states, transitioning almost flawlessly into the appropriate one at the appropriate time.* She is gentle and vulnerable with her love interest, but strategic and controlling in her quest to do something influential and great. *This is where radical feminism gets narrow-minded about how women should act and be portrayed. It's as if they want to eradicate the inherent sexual nature of the female, along with the context-the male/female control/chaos dynamic-in which it thrives.* I realize that this might only apply to heterosexual women, but that's kind of the focus when we're dealing with the archetype of the female in general. *I feel like the lesbian female archetype seems much more plausible of a concept.* These are just my thoughts and my interpretation of what I've experienced and observed. If you think I'm just psycho, you could be right. I don't really know if other women feel the same way. The topic is a bit too personal, as well and complex and specific, to have ever come up in convo. Lol. And, in order for a woman to fully relate, she might even need to be somewhat similar to me with regard to my masculine temperament. I also could've totally misinterpreted Jung in every capacity. OK, well, this is the longest KZbin comment I've ever written. I hope someone is insane enough to read it. If you do, please comment your thoughts.

[@jw5117]

I think I'd describe this account as organized chaos. Hmm.

[@13LuxAeterna13]

I'm glad I decided to read this long comment. It perfectly puts to words of how I personally feel.

[@toomuchinformation]

This, for me, is a better answer than Petersen's.

[@kathyshogue2149]

Wonderful insight.

[@thenayslayer]

So... no one is going to mention the actual 'Slayer'; Buffy? Very much follows the hero archetype. Her powers are the result of having a bit of demon in her. She actually sacrifices herself to save the world (and her sister) and is resurrected to fight again and 'share her power'. Best modern interpretation of the female hero in my not so humble opinion.

[@gillbenjamin47]

@The NaySlayer Most definitely! Buffy reinforced for me that we don't live just for ourselves; we live for others. Sacrifice is crucial in living meaningful and fulfilled lives.

[@vicenteeichler8804]

"I'm a grandfather so HURRAY for that" Pahahaha I laughed so hard when he said that, even though it was genuine ahaha.

[@applemyomg]

Ayra Stark, Katniss Everdeen, Athena, Luna Lovegood. My favorite Heroines. What does that say about me? Feminine, masculine, bit of both? I don't like fawning passive subservient female heros.. can't defend their children.

[@francoismarichy4065]

Peterson speech and one piece music in the end.. We have a winning combo !

[@Ahmad-qj6ij]

I'm a boy and I like female superheroes.

[@TheWarsuron]

your probably a lesbian

[@g13n79]

@@TheWarsuron *you're

[@TheWarsuron]

@@g13n79 thank you

[@g13n79]

@@TheWarsuron sorry and you're welcome of course

[@gill426]

There are so many great feminine heroes, my personal role model was Dana Scully and in many ways still is. I grew up reading and loving Pippi Longstocking and I still love that so much. As you see, red hair seemed to be an essential. ;) Anyways, I love Dana Scully because she is both incredibly brave and intelligent and putting herself on the line for the right thing but she is also the most beautiful and soft woman I could imagine, she's very nurturing and loving, she's a Catholic Christian, she's sacrificed so much and she's very motherly as well. ♡ I love that women come in many ways but personally I find it extremely important to nourish your femininity before and as you become a heroine. Jordan Peterson has a great way of illustrating those topics.

[@kayholand_]

good exemple, though she is the skeptical one that never see the truth like Fox, that is the one that understands what is really happening

[@rinrinsparkles1986]

But Beauty never went on an adventure she went to rescue her father and sacrifice her life to stay with the Beast instead and never see her life outside ever again.

[@darttito]

That's the adventure, she's rescuing her father from the "belly of the whale" or the dragon's lair, but instead of killing the dragon, she's taming it.

[@mike_m]

"There is the great lesson of 'Beauty and the Beast,' that a thing must be loved before it is lovable". G.K. Chesterton

[@nofybn7794]

That's an adventure!

[@patientestant]

This discussion of having a child and the world breaking it is very interesting.

[@coreycox2345]

What about Joan of Arc?

[@TheWarsuron]

she was probably more masculine centered in her brain

[@gabrooster4884]

She’s an exception.

[@oldman6914]

Shes a myth never existed .

[@coreycox2345]

OK. What about Mother Theresa? What she did fit the feminine model of nurturing. Hero? Archetype?

[@coreycox2345]

Is this bad, Alternative Me?

[@ElDrom_Belle]

He got teary talking about his grandchild 🌸

[@MissAyatan]

I like Jordan Peterson, and I personally agree with a lot of what he says, but I think the way he speaks about men, and women especially, is waaaaaaay too reductive and semplistic. He said it too. 60% of women are stereotypical, caring and nurturing and agreeable, but 40% of them are not. So, when you point at a woman walking in the streey and say "she is a cute and feminine flower" 6 times out of 10 you might be right, but 4 you will be wrong. That is NOT a small percentage. That means almost 2 billion people, and not that far from half the female population. What is the female archetype for them then? Why does it always have to do with motherhood? Are women really nothing more than their animal breeding "needs"? and about bisexual and gay women? I'm sad to say this, but I think his religious background is showing, alongside with a bit of male-centricity bias. I'm not sure if he was a woman, and had lived 60 years in this world with the point of view of a woman, his stand on this argument would be the same. The way he speaks almost makes it like women who are not motherly and agreeable are "broken", or at the very least not normal. The way he speaks is very dangerous. Women NEED and have to be heroes too, not only weeping widows and grieving mothers.

[@astraea9644]

Although the mother archetype is a very stong one, it is by no means the only one, though you could argue that women can take on a nurturing role also in other missions that do not necessarily involve physical motherhood. I agree with you that his understanding of the feminine appears quite limited, perhaps understandably as he is after all a man. HIs perception of women is based I believe on the particular flavour of is 'anima', which is very much a traditionalist one. I suppose we all view the other in some measure as existing solely in relation to us, which maybe is why it seems that when men attempt to interpret the incredibly complex inner life of women they seem to inevitably reduce it to one or both of two archetypes i.e. the mother and/or the lover.

[@repeatrepeatrepeat]

I agree with this comment but since JP is usually arguing/ discussing in good faith, I don't seem to care that much about it.

[@AudaciousAmber]

the inverted piedad came to me in a dream when i first got super sick..its crazy to hear him talk about it

[@Maorawrath]

I just love how hateful he is when he says failed beta males 4:34 *HAHAHAHAHAHA* (I didn't mean to be disparaging to betas)

[@isak098]

:(

[@Maorawrath]

*Smörhunden* Just in case, I didn't mean that in a disparaging way. It just looks like old man Peterson here has had a few bad run-ins with MGTOWs and such.

[@Amateur_Pianist_472]

+Inquisitor of the Ordo Cermeticus if men were mostly stay at home dads, they'd sure as hell be gold diggers. Anyone would care about the income of their partner being sufficient and having a high standard of living.

[@TheSebi23]

Inquisitor of the Ordo Cermeticus I'd rather get killed by higher testosterone levels than get killed by the divorce court , thank you very much.

[@Maorawrath]

*Tyler Johns* Nothing, I'm a MGTOW myself.

[@retheisen]

Heroism in males is a pathway to status. Heroism in females is a pathway to sympathy. An action that tests and roughens a man makes him stronger. An action that tests and roughens a woman makes her prematurely old.