Joseph Smith's Secret Education - Dartmouth College? w/ Randy Bell | Ep. 1728

[@carhartt4510]

Just a reminder that Joseph Smith Senior was a school teacher, and Joseph Smith junior's grandmother, Lucy's mother was also a school teacher and was involved in Joseph Smith's early years. Joseph Smith was the best educated uneducated farm boy in upstate New York.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

It's weird how the church propaganda will create contradictory portrayals depending only on which type of portrayal serves the propaganda objectives of whatever story they are telling. In the official version of the First Vision, Joe, as a 14-year old is portrayed as a young boy/man who literally burns the midnight oil studiously reading the KJV of the Bible, pondering passages and then acting upon them. Not really a portrayal of an illiterate ignoramus, is it? But the purpose of that propaganda was to promote the perception that young Joe diligently sought truth in the scriptures and teachings of various religious sects, but could not find the full truth. If they had portrayed him as an illiterate, the response could be that he simply needed to learn how to read and comprehend. An illiterate and ignorant Joe doesn't serve the propaganda objective of the First Vision story. But for the propaganda concerning the genuineness of the Book of Mormon, an illiterate and ignorant Joe is exactly what is needed. "How could an illiterate and ignorant farm boy produce such a marvelous work?"

[@soude85]

Considering that his brother Hyrum met the requirements to attend Dartmouth, it would be insane to believe that Joseph didn’t get, at least the same level of education, as Hyrum…🥴 His brother would have definitely expected Joseph to keep up and not “end up” as an ‘uneducated farm boy’.😅

[@nateman3365]

John whenever I subscribed to Mormon stories you all had 80k. I came back and you’ve got 115k. Doing great man!

[@abbyhayes22]

Seems like just yesterday we were celebrating 100k, holy heck!

[@DS-tr2fh]

There is another very interesting Dartmouth tie, Albert E. Carrington, Dartmouth class of 1833. Albert Carrington was born in Royalton VT in 1813. So that would make him 20ish when he graduated. It seems plausible to me that he would have been exposed to the same theological teachings as Hyrum, albeit they may have evolved since Hyrum's day. Albert joined the church in 1841. He was with Brigham Young on a recon trip to the SLC valley. He served on the committee that drew up a proposed constitution for the then territory of Utah. He was the territorial assessor and collector. He edited the Deseret News. He became one of the 12 apostles in 1869. He served as Brigham Young's private secretary. It would be a fascinating dive to see more of this connection as well since he was Dartmouth educated and had prominent positions in the church. Interestingly it is stated that he taught school, studied law in Pennsylvania, and engaged in mining lead in Wisconsin. I have to wonder about this latter experience since I'm sure mining lead in the early 1800s was likely fraught with peril. (source article: Dartmouth Alumni Magazine - Forgotten Dartmouth Men, Oct 1943)

[@citizen321654]

Thank you so much for this brilliant reply!

[@robevans2114]

I attended Dartmouth and found all this fascinating. I do not know much about Mormonism and this lecture put a lot of what I heard in perspective.

[@Sheepdog6451]

The KFC at the old homestead fulfills the prophecy of “ I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings (D&C 10:65)

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

I also see that there is a "Dunkin" next to the KFC. Dunkin is where donuts are baptized by immersion, as a similitude of one of the sacred ordinances restored by the Prophet Joseph. Also at KFC, the site of Joseph Smith's erstwhile home, you can get golden nuggets, take them home and serve them on plates. Gold. Plates. "For the Lord doth cause even the prominent purveyors of processed poultry and deep-fried dough to bear witness to the restoration unto the eyes of those who have eyes to see and unto the mouths of those who have mouths to partake of the poultry and the dough." (Randosiahekiel 3:13)

[@DeathValleyDazed]

On a wing and a prayer - Joseph Smith plucked the restoration from Dartmouth KFC 🐓

[@screamingoldman]

I ate there feeling finger-lickin great!

[@charlesmendeley9823]

These are the anachronisms that Joseph would regularly write into the Book of Mormon. 🤣

[@judipepper6066]

😂

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Dear Randy, it is highly important that the lectures become available to the public, especially in digital format. It could lead to further insights if they can be studied by more scholars or interested people. It would be great if you could work in that direction or get help from others such as Thomas Murphy or Dan Vogel. My suspicion is that even more parallels between the lectures and Mormon theology may be found.

[@IamCree]

John, you and the other ex/progressive Mormon activists renew my hope in humanity. Because a lot of times I think there is none. So thankful for all the labor and ethical intentionality that goes into this work as well as the positive impact it's having

[@shanejensen8484]

Ethical you say?

[@sefwright6286]

Rauner Special Collections Library at Dartmouth college seems to have a copy of the Magus by Francis Barrett which was printed around 1801. This is source material for instructions on how to make the Jupiter talisman (including drawings) that Reed Durham reported Joseph Smith being in possession of. I have a limited edition copy of the Magus as well as a replica of the Jupiter talisman. The only difference is that the one Joseph had used Hebrew letters/numbers in the magic square and the Magus uses Arabic numerals

[@Dither87]

As a former Presbyterian, it was interesting to learn some history of different types of religion. I never realized the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism and I appreciate the clarification.

[@sandiekaye5241]

I must say that there is still research needed, but this is one of those circumstantial stories of so many people and places found in one area at the same time that Occam's Razor becomes obvious at least for me. Thank you for the teachings. Also you will get to 200K much quicker than the first 100K

[@jonathanhill2948]

Sandie, Occams Razor (O R) is a philosophy of theory development. It’s utilized when there are zero or few facts in a matter. Another name for O R is the ‘law of parsimony’. Both stress the limited or minimal envolvement of assumptions in the theory. How would lack of facts and use of theory help to arrive at truth especially going back in time nearly 200 years? As a fraud investigator I used theory to prepare questions to ask and follow up on to try and find leads. That was in insurance fact or fiction cases of several days or weeks. Sometimes months or a few years. Unless statutes existed. Today, anything documented isn’t kept beyond 7 years per laws etc. With theory, 2nd hand info, and less … It’s considered hear say in a court of law and is thrown out! Guys with PhDs who follow in the footsteps of many other PhDs and the like after 200 years of zero results are spinning their wheels… of hate. Looking for documents also based on opinions and similar hate are wasting funds that could help the poor & needy.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

People often forget that circumstantial evidence is valid evidence...and often the only evidence that is really available. Of course "smoking gun" evidence is more powerful. (Verified admissions, confessions (not under duress), a video recording of an alleged perpetrator scowling while literally holding a smoking gun as his sworn enemy lay dying a few feet away....) For some contested hypotheses or theories concerning historical events that occurred two centuries ago, the chances of having such unimpeachable evidence is usually slim to none, even if there is a lot of circumstantial evidence. This connection to the Moor Charity School/Dartmouth community is really good circumstantial evidence that just adds further support to the thesis that the Book of Mormon contents and much of Joseph Smith's teachings and doctrines are nothing more than a reflection of his time and the intellectual/ideological environment that existed in his region of the world.

[@KGchannel01]

Fascinating stuff, not just for debunking myths about Mormon origins, but also just for those wanting a deeper appreciation of how Mormonism fits into history.

[@shanejensen8484]

I’m not trying to antagonize. Seriously curious. We so often hear/see what we want to. How does it debunk Mormon origins? All this seems possible and has some level of truth. Not sure how it really matters. Wouldn’t we be surprised if the LDS faith was actually not very similar to other Christian faiths? Why couldn’t it have pieces of other theological beliefs brought together as one?

[@KGchannel01]

@@shanejensen8484 Peace to you. You are right that we often see what we want to and not much more. I don't disagree much with your points. The question I try to ask myself is, what theory (or theories) best explains all of the available evidence? Not only what is possible, but what is most probable, based on a preponderance of evidence. Where do multiple lines of evidence converge? Anyway I wish you the best in your studies and in your human journey!

[@Epicurus60]

Arminius lived from around 1560 to 1609. He was a Dutch theologian in Leiden where the Pilgrim Fathers temporarily lived, before crossing the Ocean to start a new life in New England. Great presentation with so much information. Thank you, John

[@stacieamberson5570]

I am so glad that you brought somebody on that is researching this topic. Ever since you had Kathleen Kimball Melonakos on Mormon stories, this topic has been on my mind. Especially since, All our childhoods we heard there is no way a young farmer could have just made the book of Mormon up. I knew deep down inside there is more to it. Another topic that is interesting to me is why in the movie the “Blackkklansmwn” their handshake looked like the patriarchal grip. I think we need to ask Randy Bell to research that next. So curious now. It could be a coincidence but maybe not. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@jbelli211]

I believe there’s links between the kkk and some of them also being free masons. Free masonry has been around in its modern form since at least the early 1800’s if not the 17th and 18th century and possibly earlier.

[@Hallahanify]

Its a masonic handshake, just one of many things from the temple joseph stole from the masonic temple.

[@Maryfs1]

I never thought I'd enjoy learning history, LOL.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

Yeah, learning sucks!

[@RenatoAguila]

We had a classmate in an introduction to Mormonism class who was a Swedenborgian pastor in training, and his final class report gingerly discussed how closely connected Swedenborg’s teaching was to Smith’s. It had to be gingerly because our class met in a space connected with the LDS church, of course. But yes, some points mentioned may have come up in his report-it was a long time back.

[@tawneenielsen4080]

I've studied Swedenborg, and I'm LDS. Yes, Swedenborgs novels and novels and novels are definitely used as Mormonisms' original ideas. It's actually surprising. Swedenborgs ability to see the other side is definitely more inclusive and makes me sad because it sounds like our own concepts that we are the best actually put us in a not so heavenly place. Sad

[@RenatoAguila]

I believe another Swedish theologian’s thoughts might be helpful in this regard. The late Krister Stendhal, a former Harvard Divinity School professor and bishop in the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden, was asked to address the unease there surrounding the construction of an LDS temple. He said that he had felt “holy envy” for some of the things Mormons value and do. Likewise, the person who led my class said that, as a member of the LDS church, he felt “holy envy” for what other faiths and Christian expressions had. Honestly, “holy envy” can help chip away at the “we’re the best” mentality and encourage genuine humility. I’m grateful for all the members of the church I met in the context of that class, and while I see some value in their sense of community and hospitality and connection to God, I am aware that the church as a whole has to come to terms with how its story really began and what it says about their truth claims.

[@scottlaux6934]

@@tawneenielsen4080 Get out. You are in a cult that harms people.

[@gdog3finally]

Yes the Swedenborg freemasonry influence.

[@shanejensen8484]

Why do folks find it surprising that the LDS faith has many, many similarities to other Christian faiths. I would find it surprising if they weren’t similar.

[@WaterMovesAroundRock]

Like I said on MDC on Facebook, I've had the same surgery as Smith did, but on a different body part. I had such a severe bone infection that it required two debridement surgeries to settle the matter, not to mention the amount of antibiotics it took. So, I can attest that Smith's level of pain was probably in the upper stratosphere, and I don't believe for even a moment that church's claim that he didn't take anything for the pain. Back in their day, anyone could go buy opiates from the apothecary. Smith was probably blasted at all times of day on opiates during the time the infection was raging, and probably during and after the surgeries. It's easy to understand why Smith's mental health started to take a downturn during that time of illness, as the pain is almost unbearable even with today's pain medicines.

[@HannahMitchell-Art]

Wow great insight thanks’

[@jbelli211]

“At least he didn’t take alcohol!” - some TBM Mormon

[@shanejensen8484]

Baseless story. Your experience, although interesting, has no impact on the truth or lack there of. Ask five people to tell you their experience with shingles, back fusion, bunionectomy, etc. They’d all be different. Also, you have no idea of the amount of pain meds available to him. Go with it, if it makes you feel better, but nothing of value in your comments.

[@frazer9]

​@@shanejensen8484keep paying your tithing

[@corbinbrodie2636]

That was genuinely jaw dropping to watch and listen to. I've heard of the Swedenborg (and Thomas Dick) theological influence on Mormonism before...and maybe only very vaguely of one or two of the other things Randy Bell mentions, but the vast bulk of that is pretty startlingly new to hear. The Smith family's close proximity to and relationship with Dartmouth. The dense constellation of clear Mormon-esque ideological models swirling around at Dartmouth at that time. The fact that Joseph Smith Sr.'s cousin was an eminent professor blending precisely all those elements in a theological broth while Hyrum was studying there and Joseph Smith was a child old enough to soak it all up and actually being given his schooling by Hyrum while his leg was recovering....wow.....definitely want to hear more about how this research proceeds. Utterly fascinating. Not to be too silly about it but all we need to find out now is that at that time Dartmouth College operated 13 different shell colleges that only existed on paper in order to hide an unseemly amount of wealth and that would seal the case!

[@jbelli211]

I get that the last part of your comment was a joke but it was something I thought about as well during this podcast. I think the modern church’s obsession with running the church as a corporation is something that must have developed much later although the theological foundations of “prosperity gospel” like teachings are also I’d assume from around this same time period.

[@corbinbrodie2636]

@@jbelli211 I think you're probably quite right. There's that famous Max Weber book on "The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". That idea that in early Protestantism 'working very hard' as per Adam's punishment to 'toil' as well as being taught that 'idle hands are the devil's playthings', all of it meant that being seen to be hard working and industrious was a kind of old-fashioned virtue signalling as well as a way of seeking God's approval and 'earning' your salvation. That slowly, or perhaps quite rapidly, meant that wealth and a grand house became means of showing both that you were hard working and that God was showing his approval of you for it and reward to you for it. Some ideas connected to all that must have been floating around early American universities. What I also wondered was what the effect must have been on Joseph as a kid, with his family having some financial struggles, and having to be a farm labourer, when he had a close relative in a powerful and wealthy position as a professor who was expert in 'ancient things' and religious teachings. Young boys often get driven in life to outdo the adult men they either look up to or resent or both, and to outdo them precisely in their own terms, wealth, 'ancient things' and being a theologian in this case.

[@jbelli211]

@@corbinbrodie2636 exactly, which probably lent into his obsession with digging for treasures, although I’ve also read that characters like captain Cook and pirates were akin to in modern day we worship marvel characters. But yes I’m sure that attitude permeated the east coast as it still does today. WASPS are very much concerned with portraying themselves in the best light possible like as to prove that God has blessed them for their righteous living. It probably weighed heavily on him and his family going through poverty, he probably thought that digging for treasure and his other future endeavors (some might call scams) were a product of that kind of thinking and belief. Ironically it continues today throughout Utah culture with the many MLM’s, pyramid schemes, door to door salesmen, everyone trying and thinking they can get rich quick. I grew up with quite a few guys who went the door to door route, many of them becoming very successful financially while others tried to maintain the image of success at all costs. There’s also a LOT of fraud that goes on in that industry. There’s an attitude and belief that persists that “since I went on a mission and labored for the Lord door to door, I should also be successful financially because I’m doing the same thing professionally.” I temporarily worked on the administrative side of door to door sales and MANY of the top sellers are either just straight up lying to people, taking advantage of the elderly, if they speak Spanish, taking advantage of Hispanic immigrants, or if all else fails they’ll just forge people’s signatures! It was really unbelievable how much fraud was tolerated so long as you consistently brought in money; even the CEO was completely aware and probably did it himself whenever he started out. It’s amazing how antithetical that belief is to the gospel’s teachings of Christ. He told the rich man who wanted to follow him to sell all that he had and he couldn’t because he had so much and loved his material things too much. Loving and helping the poor is central to the Gospels; where is material wealth ever praised? It really confuses me.

[@corbinbrodie2636]

@@jbelli211 I hear you. Growing up in the church even at a young age I could never square the fact that at church all I heard was 'spiritual' stuff that seemed to me, even at the age of 14 or so, to imply a huge focus on helping the less fortunate, and doing it real Jesus style, full on, shirt off your back etc.. But in Mormon homes of my own or friends or ward people the conversation was all 'church stuff' or neighbourhood stuff, it was so clear they couldn't care less about any suffering in the world. That was all in God's hands apparently. The whole world in its terrible reality was, to them, just a cardboard cutout backdrop for their own nice and easy journey to the Celestial Kingdom. In fact, given the 'second coming' being imminent, the suffering of poor people in poor countries was simply a 'sign of the times'...ya know...a kind of distant apocalypse they could all get a thrill out of in front of the TV over pizza. No need to be concerned. They'd paid their tithing and had active temple recommends to flash at angels in Jackson County, Missouri at the end of times. It was only at the homes of non-Mormon friends that I first heard not only discussion of poor countries, and things like debt and colonial history and the idea that, hey our whole society is historically based on the suffering of others and over this nice meal we can't ever forget that. The chances of hearing such conversation over a Mormon dinner....zilch. Even though it took me halfway through my mission in Japan to finally I realise I didn't believe in the church, the first misgivings were definitely formed when I was a kid, slowly noticing the stark contrast between so-called Mormon 'niceness' and, behind that, a kind of terrifying callousness.

[@shanejensen8484]

Corbin, I don’t doubt your n personal experience, but mine was and is totally different.

[@auntlynnie]

As a former church-of-Christ-er, it’s REALLY interesting to see the potential relationship between the churches.

[@marshafisher71]

It angers me that I was completely “ all in”, with my church membership, temple covenants and tithing commitments. What a waste of time, money, emotional and mental education. I am so grateful that my eyes are now open and my decision making is of informed consent! No more drinking the Kool-Aid!

[@vlong5537]

LOVE your podcast in general, and this episode was particularly informative, brilliant even. Thank you for the history and insights. Appreciate y'all.

[@davepayne2024]

Im 💯 on board. I’m a returned missionary and had my name removed from the records. You’re doing a fantastic job of dismantling Mormonism. Have you started trying to figure out the big questions of who we are, what we’re doing here, etc?

[@Elz-0987]

Wow. What a fantastic episode. “Joseph smith came up with almost nothing original” (~1:20:44) thank you for laying out so clearly all these influences (including Greek mythology and Islam as well.)This an episode I’ll certainly be sharing.

[@Loves_three_kitties]

So revealing. He WAS NO uneducated farm boy. He had access to many sources we’re just beginning to know.

[@richardprice5978]

feels more Jewish mixture ( all most like smith's contemplated conversion to jew but couldn't do it, maybe because pre-1945 USA 🇺🇸 had large population of Jewish but was something that would still get you shunned or upto killed over as USA 🇺🇸 was vary anti Semitic/racism ect ) with christening than islam and native first nations to me

[@gigig1954]

What an excellent video! I'd realized years ago that Dartmouth played a huge role in the Mormon origins and so did Hyrum. One minor quibble is that there are only two sources for Joseph's leg surgery and neither of them name Dr. Nathan Smith as even being there let alone being the primary surgeon (that's been greatly embellished by the church to name this famous doctor as Joseph's surgeon). Lucy never spoke of Joseph's surgery (that is recorded) while Joseph was alive and only wrote about it after his death. She names a "Dr. Stone" as the primary surgeon and makes no mention of Dr. Nathan Smith (who was very well known by then) or any other Dr. Smith being present in her history written after Joseph's death. The only other source for the surgery is in Willard Richard's handwriting and that was added to Joseph's history in a note. Nothing about Joseph's surgery was in JS's original history upon it's first publication in the Times and Seasons. Richards also does not name Dr. Nathan Smith, but does state that a Dr. Smith was one of the doctors. In all of Dr. Nathan Smith's documents and records, he does not state he ever saw or treated Joseph Smith. He also wrote that during this Typhoid breakout, he only had to "bleed" (cut open surgically) one patient and that was on the person's head (who was in their 20's). Just adding some facts! But I really enjoyed this video....very well put together.

[@Cate7451]

This is so fascinating today❤ the idea of mixing theologies isn’t new in itself. I see Egyptian and Jewish input as well. Facinating

[@jacobopstad5483]

It's all so simple and yet seeing it all spelled out together and connecting it all to one place really drives the point home.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Half way through and this has been a very good show. I have to say though I can't imagine Joseph going through the things he went through if he didn't believe what he was teaching. Rod Meldrum, Wayne May, Michael P. and a lot of others have done a great deal of research and have found the left overs of places that fit very well with Book of Mormon places and how they built the cities and the walls and other things. At this point I am not arguing with what Randy is saying. I am trying to have an open mind as I research and try to decide if the Book of Mormon is true. Thanks for the video, Randy is very well educated in his information and presents it very well.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

45:00 Besides the idea that the golden plates contained multiple different character sets from different languages, Arabic is also an anachronism.

[@jowest1902]

I'm from the Macomb,/Carthage Illinois region. One of my relatives was the guard at the jail that was overrun and killed. A few stories told to me is that the farmers in the area were hunting him and his band to chase them out. The reason told is that they were stealing stuff.

[@DeathValleyDazed]

Thanks for adding contrast. Do you have access to more history from the Carthage Jail staff on Smiths as well as other prisoners around that time period?

[@jowest1902]

@@DeathValleyDazed The university, Western Illinois University in Macomb has the documentation. There's also a college in Carthage, Carl Sandbeg, that may have history document but I'm not sure of that. It's ironic that now there's a temple in Carthage now. For the family, that's a slap in the face.

[@DeathValleyDazed]

@@jowest1902 Thank you for these details.

[@jowest1902]

@@DeathValleyDazed you are welcome. Good luck getting the details of the jail. The building is now owned by Mormon.

[@shanejensen8484]

Great example of why family stories passed down from one generation to another, and another, are just that…stories. Seems to me that the stories seem to support more than detract.

[@harlanlang6556]

This explains a lot! Fascinating. One big difference between the polygamy of Joseph Smith and that of Muhammed is that the Arabians already were practicing polygamy at the time of Muhammed with no limit for the number of wives a man could have. Muhammed put a limit of 4 wives, a real hardship. Joseph Smith was born into a monogamous Christian society and introduced polygamy as something new. I don't think that Jesus even mentions polygamy even though it was practiced by Jews. Monogamy was a decision made by the church at some point. I had an aunt and uncle who belonged to the Church of Christ which they believed was the one true church. Everybody else was going to hell.

[@hannahkate4184]

I actually grew up in The Church of Christ. ( I am 4th generation in my family. We will not and do not have a 5th generation.). Also a cult. It is not as highly structured as the Mormons. However, most of these churches only have 200 or so members. Some are even smaller. My husband and I have a running joke that they have one in every tiny town you may visit. The small size makes it very easy to fellowship and stay pretty close and informed of what members are doing. Lots of similar themes and very narrow views. It was a lot of trauma growing up in this. Oh the stories!

[@merricat3025]

I dont know much about Church of Christ

[@MomtoAutism]

Amazing episode!❤

[@clarkjohnson3249]

Not to in any way trivialize this extremely important research for which I am so thankful, as it turns on many lights for me, but it peeks my interest in Hyrum. What were his motivations to be a side kick to his brother to the point of losing his life for essentially a big lie that he had to know was Joseph’s and Oliver Cowdery’s if not partly his? It’s a blank to me and I’m left wondering, have I missed substantial info on him in other editions and my own reading?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

He seems to have been much more important than standard church history ever indicates. He likely was often prompting Joseph Smith on various theories, ideas and policies. It seems like his personality was the type that was content to wield influence behind the scenes and let someone like Joe get most of the spotlight. William Law's accounts of his experiences in Nauvoo clearly give the impression that Hyrum Smith was a force to be reckoned with at all times in the community, second only to Joseph Smtih, really. I guess we can only guess about the details of the relationship. As for losing his life with Joseph Smith, I don't think either of them really thought they would die where and when they did. It was certainly a fear, as it would have been in several situations for them in the past. It's interesting that Hyrum was actually the first one killed. Some people claim that their deaths were actually orchestrated as a kind of coup staged by other leaders of the church, which is why both were targeted for death (with Samuel following in death soon thereafter). The coup plotters, according to the theory, had every reason to believe that if Joe died, Hyrum would have been his obvious successor.

[@sheliabryant3997]

​@@TEAM__POSEID0N Re. Hyrum Yup! Yuppity-YUP!! Thanks for narrative

[@atheistapostate7019]

As a teen from the Maritimes in Canada, we would do temple trips to the Toronto Temple... We would do a Palmyra, NY stop and than to Sharon, VT. We never stopped in NH, or knew it’s historical place in church history

[@kevinedward118]

One of the best episodes ever!

[@marianking3773]

Ready to harvest KZbin does an excellent job of defining theological terms; movements and origins. Does this without prejudice.

[@celicalostandfound]

Revisiting this episode after reading Lars Nielsen's book. John I think you should have him on if possible. The fact BYU bought the Kircher documents from Dartmouth and vaulted them in 1979 and 1980 is worthy to expose.

[@redandpink219]

So interesting - is Randall Bell working on making this information into a book?

[@caralinde]

Please Randy!

[@Loves_three_kitties]

I sure hope so. He added a lot since Mormon Discussions.

[@jessicalong2293]

Kathleen Melonakos wrote about this pretty extensively in her book that John interviewed her about Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847

[@IExposeMormonism]

Pomery Tucker suggests Sidney was visiting JS secretly and constructing the BofM. I understand that Sidney and Spaulding roomed together at Dartmouth. An easily available book, like N Smith's, is Josiah Priest " American Antiquities and Discoveries in The West", published many times between 1828 thru at least 1837. It goes thru the gammet of Indians are Tartars to Jews, , "languages", "alphabets", the serpent mounds, and it has 30+ pages on Champollion and Real Egyptian. If only JS had known he could have asked...

[@Loves_three_kitties]

I've gotta’ check that out!

[@Loves_three_kitties]

Yes, Sidney most likely had a hand in the BofM. His relationship to Dartmouth and Spaulding was convenient. Thanks,Sue

[@charlesmendeley9823]

59:30 The walls were actually used to ward off Tapir armies.

[@kera9389]

I love johns: “ I’m just being silly” 😂😂😂 he’s just saying what we all are thinking lol

[@gregorylyons1836]

At 1:01:12, Mr Bell states that the Robert Thorson's "Stone by Stone" book documents that New England has 240,000 miles of stone wall fences of mysterious origin. Pages 141-142 of the book actually states that from a 1871 fencing census, 240,000 miles of stone walls were constructed by New England labor.

[@ChrisS-dt3vq]

I am imagining that the new American's brought the knowledge of "fences" of rock walls over from England with them.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

Has John ever had Julia from Analyzing Mormonism in the interview-chair? I'd love to hear her story!

[@mormonstories]

Me too.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

@@mormonstories Cool. I'm gonna send her your way!

[@empressvee]

This is awesome!

[@mattjohansson8931]

Would love more on this. Good work guys!

[@ra.5067]

I found this episode refreshing and Randy to be doing some exciting research. It doesn’t have to be his original discovery. He is putting it together in an intelligent way.. For someone who believes in the Mormon version of JS as a special prophet, this puts a lot of holes in that story.

[@Moekristie]

Why In Mormon podcasts etc does no one ever discuss Brigham Young ... He seems highly mysterious and questionable ...

[@charlesmendeley9823]

You should find episodes on the Adam God doctrine / theory. Most podcasts focus of Joseph because he was the founder and also most prolific. Brigham Young only surpassed him with respect to the number of wives.

[@organicemily1745]

Look up Hemlock Knots. They do quite a bit on him.

[@jacquieklosch8840]

Absolutely thanks to the great content!

[@cdlahm7571]

32:32 Church of Christ is a pretty generic New England Congregationalist church name. I think it’s best not to read too much into it

[@jeffkunce8501]

Yes, as in its modern denomination, the "United Church of Christ." Not the same as the "Cambellite" churches. "Church of Christ" is a term found in the new testament, so it has been adopted by a variety of unrelated church organizations.

[@michellesmith6891]

Thankyou Randy for all your research ❤️ this helps so much with my journey.

[@sandilynn8010]

I can hear TBM saying that all the past teachings of Greek mythology, Muslims, masonry etc was all restored by JS😂

[@sefwright6286]

I find this topic intriguing. It brings to mind the archeological findings being made currently on Oak Island off the coast of Nova Scotia, such as possible Roman road and a half Roman coin. Vermont and Nova Scotia are both close enough to be influenced by similar forces of the past. By the way, doesn’t the Spaulding manuscript refer to ancient Romans coming to New England?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Indeed, Oak Island would have been a hot topic right at the time that Joseph Smith was growing up. It literally became famous in the 1790s as a rumored location of pirate treasure. Look into the stories about teenager Daniel McGinnis and friends who apparently went on Joe Smith style treasure hunts there in the 1790s, as well as the fact that Mahone Bay was already well known as an erstwhile pirate haven. ("Mahone" actually even sounds kind of like a Book of Mormon name. Mahone Moroni Macaroni.)

[@sefwright6286]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N Great points!

[@Jeanikins]

Randy told us to do our own research and I have been doing so since listening to this episode. Forgery was rife in Vermont with its easy access to Canada. People were laying thin metal coatings on top of local coins and making them look like old coins from Greece I think was one of the places named. I have been on Google Maps looking at all the places in Vermont or NH where they all lived, then I started down the rabbit hole of the Whitmer Family. For years I have wondered about the war scenes in the Book of Mormon, and the War of 1812 was raging between Canada (the Kingmen) and American colonists right at the time that the whole of the Smith family were smitten with typhoid fever while living in a border state. The outcome of which was Joseph Smith's leg surgery that was an enormous success. The pieces fit together Randy, thanks for helping me with the jigsaw puzzle.

[@tinygoldhanger645]

Talk about a crazy coincidence! Last night I actually watched a documentary on Netflix, called ancient Apocalypse that talked about the specific stonework examples all over the world that you guys are specifically talking about including examples of the snakes and the serpents! 😮

[@soude85]

Thank you very much for this episode!💐

[@shanejensen8484]

Kind of sounds like opportunities and preparations for the great things to come for Joseph Smith. 46:33

[@jacobhholt]

Joseph Smith's "The Book of Mormon" had one Hell of a promotional tale that literally manifest a cult and a religion all on its own with the awarness to obfuscate it's own origin by it's author to establish credibility amongst the public as "inspired".

[@tedsmith8369]

It’s called the Mound Builder Myth because people of the time, including Joseph Smith, came to conclusions that were not true. We don’t know everything but we know enough to declare that the 18th and 19th century understandings were false and very racist.I find the true Mound Builder story fascinating! If you want to keep believing the Book of Mormon is actual history then don’t research the true Mound Builders! They were amazing.

[@Hallahanify]

I grew up in newhampshire and i had zero knowledge of these mounds or stoneworks. Stonewalls are super common but they served as property boundaries. It was never discussed such things that were from native americans. Although back then the area was much more deforested so perhaps these festures were more prominent then.

[@nancyaghamalian9699]

What about the age of accountability? Where did that originate from? Nancy C of Christ 1:46:52

[@robertbarney8635]

This is very interesting. I certainly couldn’t explain this to anyone .

[@brianmcdermott629]

Are those real pictures of Joseph and Hyrum? For the longest time they were trying to find a picture of Joseph Smith but the ones they’d found had been found to be someone else.

[@jbelli211]

Yes, I think they just authenticated it in the last year or so

[@andeytubeyshamon]

I’m an atheist but spent 30 years listening, reading and wondering why people believe what they believe - seaming educated people believing and living by a 100,000 different beliefs (the initial spark was why would a suicide bomber walk smiling into a market full of people and kill them - he 100% believed and someone got him to believe - the imam telling him he was doing Allas best work - strange how imams don’t do the bombings 🤷🏻🙄). They are all Man made the problem is they are normally looked at in isolation one religion at a time and the believers think what they are being told is the ONLY truth. If there was an omnipotent all knowing god would surely know the best way to give us a fighting chance of believing instead of getting prophets to badly translate his words on the smallest topics - no germ theory etc etc etc - and as this series shows god would have known that giving Joseph smith revelations would lead to 99.9999% of people who look into it thinks it’s bollocks so does he want us to go to hell knowing we wouldn’t believe? Mormonism is not just your average bollocks but lies, fraud and falsehoods but sadly too big of a cult and money making entity that no matter what it will still be there. If there is a god he’s the worst publisher and shittest communicator ever and could at anytime make more of us believe in him- if he actually wanted us to worship him which is another strange thing - who benefits in people worshiping him… Imams, priests, Joseph Smith etc. imagine the power you have over someone claiming you speak for an invisible god or can read the entrails of dead birds to see who will win a battle? Better than being in the battle 🤷🏻😂Great series!

[@anitah2404]

This is very enlightening and fascinating!

[@coletteblechert3794]

Yes, polygamy exists in the modern LDS church. My ex was sealed to me and his new wife at the same time and my children (with my new husband (we were not married in the temple)) were born in the covenant (sealed) to my ex.

[@mindeloman]

Yeah, most people don't know this. Everything your womb produces is sealed to the first husband. This is left over bullshit from polygamy days that they've never tried to clear up. Just more control of women and their bodies.

[@mrsspeech]

Do you think Dartmouth would prefer not to be associated with Joseph Smith?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Well, Joseph Smith himself was never a student there. As for his brother, Hyrum, he also was not a Dartmouth student. He was a student at the "Moor's Indian Charity School" and he was first enrolled there at the age of 11. But MICS was located at the Dartmouth campus, shared faculty with Dartmouth and shared facilities. Hyrum would have resided in the same dormitory as Dartmouth students. However, the two educational institutions were separate and had separate objectives. So, technically, Dartmouth doesn't even have an official or formal link to Hyrum. The significance of the history, though, is that Hyrum would have personally known Dartmouth faculty members and students while he was attending MICS.

[@CLK7378]

Mind blown! 🤯

[@Rosie-bi6jn]

I have a question. Joseph Smith was born in 1805 and Hyrum in 1800. That makes a 5 year difference. How could Hyrum have attended Dartmouth when Joseph was 10-12 years old? Does not compute

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

He actually did not attend Dartmouth college. He attended "Moor's Indian Charity School", which you could almost characterize as a "missionary training center" for people interested in preaching to indigenous peoples ("Indians" in the vernacular of the time). Hyrum would have been at an appropriate age to begin educational pursuits at such an institution. The Dartmouth connection is that the Moor Charity School shared faculty with Dartmouth, was basically on the Dartmouth campus and Hyrum would have resided in a common dormitory used for both Dartmouth and the Moor Charity School. He would have known just about everybody who was anybody at both MCS and Dartmouth. Since most people know about Dartmouth and few know about the Moor Charity School, it's just easier to refer to Dartmouth generally, since MCS was so closely connected. From the official LDS Church website you can find this statement about Hyrum: "Hyrum Smith was born on February 9, 1800. As a child, he showed promise as a student, and at age 11 he entered Moor’s Indian Charity School, where he received the most formal education of any of the Smith children."

[@ruthsyversen5963]

The one thing that Joseph and Hyrum forgot in the restoring of the Gospel from the New Testament times is the Saturday Sabbath!!

[@terryweldon7774]

We celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday, because that is the day Christ was resurrected and also it mentions breaking bread (The Sacrament) on the first day of the week which is Sunday.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@ruthsy. No, ma'am. Unh-Unh. Clear where you're heading with this, but does not work. PAUL IS VERY CLEAR about the "CHRISTIAN" sabbath in a couple of places and HIS advices are concurrent not only with the 8th-day FIRST-DAY worship as God instructed Moses in Leviticus 23:23 -37-39, but also with lsaiah 44:1-4, 5. And he plainly instructs "Whoever KEEPS [a day of worshipful observance], let him keep it (THAT DAY he chooses) AS UNTO GOD. Just as Jesus REMOVED ALL "dietary" regulations, so was the Mosaic SABBATH commandment taken away with the Law of Moses. Jesus was CRUCIFIED chiefly for the reasons that the Pharisees sought to KILL HIM because, in their view, He DID NOT KEEP THE SABBATH when He healed on the MOSAIC Sabbath. This is where that business ends. AT. THE. CROSS. JESUS IS. HIMSELF. THE. SABBATH. THE REST. They refused to "get it" then. And some still refuse to get it now.

[@thedailydump7407]

This information is so incredibly enlightening and freeing! Mormon Stories has created changes in the temple ceremony. In a way that makes you a Mormon Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.

[@shanejensen8484]

Incorrect

[@benhiggins5808]

Mark Twain said: “There is no such thing as a new idea.” Instead he reasoned that we turn old ideas into new and curious combinations. In other words we build on our existing knowledge and experience, adding and progressing existing ideas, to form new combinations. Looking at the sources of information and the timeline and exposure the BoM is clearly an evolution of thinking. Certainly not divine, but a pattern of human thought.

[@mayrafernandez7303]

Fascinating ! My question: didn’t all the leaders of the different branches of Protestantism do the same? You never mentioned their possible Catholic influence. Thanks. -Dr. Mayra Fernandez, a practicing lesbian-Catholic

[@shanejensen8484]

Thanks for sharing the lesbian fact. Relevance?

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Protestants do not claim that their theology is based on special revelation. Luther just read the Bible, and he found the truth of salvation by grace in Eph 2:8-9, Romans, and other verses. No angel or extra biblical prophecy involved.

[@richardholmes5676]

Word Print Studies from the Berkeley group found only 1 in a 15 trillion chance that Nephi and Alma were written by the same author.

[@prettystupidsystem]

Thanks!

[@aw9680]

I think Joseph was lying about his education in order to try and bolster the divine source of his book.

[@ronaldswihart4018]

John, if you read this, I recently sent you a request for a therapy visit. I have information that I have not heard any of you podcasters talk about that makes all religion moot. I wish I could share it with you or RFM and Bill Reel.

[@samfrancis9227]

Curious how the eldest brother Alvin fits into all of this

[@anastasiarose3800]

And his family practiced black magic, including animal sacrifice! Not many members know about that.

[@danvogel6802]

Why no quotes from the sources? We just get themes that are ubiquitious in JS's environment. John Smith is long gone by the time Hyrum gets to the charity school that is associated with Dartmouth. We don't know what Hyrum was exposed to. There doesn't seem to be anything making Dartmouth a compelling source for JS. Hyrum may have learned some things there and passed them on to JS, but as far as I can tell it's not a necessary hypothesis. I certainly don't claim JS got his information from any specific book, except for the Bible. We use literature to reconstruct JS's culture to see what was believed and taught and how the BofM and JS fit into that discourse, not to show source. It takes a lot of evidence to demonstrate a direct source. So far, neither Richard Behrens nor Randy Bell have presented a compelling argument. Nor have they given us any real examples upon which can judge the parallels. What little they have given causes me to suspect Mormon bias is involved in interpreting John Smith's lectures. I would like to see quotes and analysis of the sources.

[@kjens8617]

Thank you Dan Vogel. With John Smith long gone before Hyrum got there, I wonder who gave all of the sermons Hyrum would have heard? And are there records of those sermons? That might be useful.

[@danvogel6802]

@@kjens8617 So far, the most we can say is that the ideas JS expressed in the BofM and other places were not unique to him, but as to a specific book or lecture there is nothing compelling, except for the KJV of course. John Smith seems to have lecture on theological issues that were being discussed at the time. Dartmouth and Hyrum may have been one source, but JS may have learned about some of the ideas from multiple sources, not just one and not necessarily printed.

[@function0077]

This is the most important comment for this video. I wish Mormon stories would pin this comment at the top of the video. People continue to try to accurately estimate the population of the Americas pre-1492, and I have seen huge variation in those estimates. After 1492, a lot of the indigenous American populations decreased dramatically due to lack of immunity to new diseases and colonization. Joseph Smith Jr. lived approx. 300 years after Columbus et. al. arrived in the Americas. Would Joseph Smith Jr. have known that the indigenous populations he observed during his life were only a small fraction of the indigenous populations that existed in those same areas before 1492 and how it happened?

[@LaLaJonesG]

It’s so clear the Book of Mormon was CONTRIVED! Check out Dr. Robert Rittner’s talk too. It makes sense

[@rachellivingston665]

My question with the list of Greek/Christian similarities that I think an apologist would say is that it’s just proof of an “ancient religion” It’s just proof ole joe was “divinely inspired”. How would you establish this point as false? That’s the type argument I know my believing husband would have.

[@yosef6664]

2 Timothy 4:1-5 (NKJV): I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

[@victoriasward3295]

Around 32:00 in the video - Church of Christ…isn’t there a correlation in the BOM where a group called themselves “church of Christ”? And for that to be used as the first name of the lads church was interesting. I always thought is the BOM called themselves Church of Christ, why didn’t we call our selves the same thing. Am I making sense?

[@terrisoare3363]

How do you explain the Mentinah Archives them

[@KimballCody]

All of this reinforces the Tartarian Empire theory

[@TacShooter]

I thought Sidney Rigdon was supposed to be the Angel (literally "Messenger") Moroni?

[@emilym.2830]

My family loves to tell the story that our ancestor broke Joseph Smiths leg while wrestling lol

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Similarities in first visions and other manuscripts but none of those made it. Only Joseph's. I still got a lot to digest.

[@medicarefinds]

Historical books. "No Man Knows My History", Fawn Brody. More on the new Mohamad -- "The Niche of Lights, the works of Al-Ghazali, translated, introduced and annotated by David Buchman, Brigham Young University Press, Provo, UT 1998. This book is a part of three translated works. Introduction xviii, "Prophet Muhammad through intermediary of the archangel Gabrial"....a 14 year old boy, etc.. I always guessed JS was a plagiarist. How or why didn't Dartmouth and their strict adherence to rules, why then wasn't Joseph and Hyrum discredited by the college? Also wondering about the many husbands of Emma and her polyandry. Joe Smith and his polygyny. Pologamy means a person with many spouses. To paint just the men as pologamist we are missing the other half of the store. Dartmouth as an Ivy League school would know the difference in the words. More here to see? Or did the patriachy conveniently reframe words?

[@davepayne2024]

Read Gary Lachman’s The Secret Teachers of the Western World. Swedenborg is just one of many.

[@sandkeepersaint9112]

Randy Bell is my brother-in-law. I wish he would come back to the fold. I have a strong testimony in Joseph Smith's education being from angels and messengers from God. (Study what happens to a person during transfiguration, if you want to see collaboration in Joseph Smith's accounts hint....it makes someone tired like Moses on the mount of transfiguration, it also happened to Oliver) I think it is a huge stretch to say that family teachings or Hyrum's tutoring is the missing link. If you have ever read the Book of Mormon you know that Joseph could not have compiled the scriptures in such a short time that supplement the teachings in the Bible... In message and in form.... like chiasmus of Jesus Christ being the center of a chaper. No one who ever leaves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can leave it alone. They don't say why their life is so much better because they have a closer relationship with Christ. They usually try to get other people to leave the church along with them. President Nelson said members should not rehearse their doubts with other doubters.

[@function0077]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is worth about $230 billion. It actively lobbies and influences politicians and judges. It has thousands of proselytizing missionaries. Its leaders believe it is above the law (see the SEC fines). The Mormons will not leave the rest of us alone. It goes both ways you cult member.

[@BreeTenney]

Honestly it shouldn’t bug you that people talk about the church when it was our whole life just like it is yours. If you believe it’s true then the things people say about the church shouldn’t affect your testimony right?

[@soude85]

Did you even watch the video? Do you enjoy being lied to? It’s hard to admit that you’ve been bamboozled by a con artist… In my opinion, you expect everyone around you to play dumb because the truth would hurt your feelings.

[@sandkeepersaint9112]

​​@@BreeTenneyit's not my testimony right now that I am worried about. It's people weaker in their faith... And when someone puts a chink in their armor it can be spiritually fatal. So I try to call out falsehood where I see them. This is FALSE...Hyrum didn't teach Joseph... Joseph was taught by the power of God. That's how he translated the Book of Mormon too. In the Book of Mormon teaching the word of God for money was called out as wickedness...ie priestcraft. To do it right ..no man is better than his hearers .. They both left their labors to learn and be taught. KZbinrs who make money are a huge problem.

[@sandkeepersaint9112]

​@@soude85i have seen a few of his presentations...Randy and John are both Apostates.

[@emilymiller4195]

I thought it was Alvin who went to Dartmouth.

[@mrgrnjns1111]

The native Americans in Joseph's local area and others like the Cherokee had legends of white skinned Indians as well as a legend of Jesus but referred to Jesus as the east star man or the great peacemaker. Daniel Boone infact when going into the area we call Kentucky was told by the Cherokee that they didn't live there but only hunted because that's where the ghost of the white skinned people lived . That they had destroyed them. So they wouldn't live there that's why Daniel Boone settled in Kentucky. Because the natives thought of the land as cursed by the white skinned Indians. I geek out on history like this.

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

If Joseph Smith is the author of the Book of Mormon, he was the pioneer of J.K. Rowling.

[@kylelillie]

Joseph synthesized the BoM just like Tolkien synthesized Lord of the Rings from his education, experiences, and environment. You can easily find the sources for both.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

The main difference is that Tolkien did a much better job of it. The evidence indicates that originally Joseph Smith hoped to make money on the book as some kind of best seller. That didn't happen because most people couldn't get past the crappy writing and story telling. So Joe decided to set up a church instead. Once a grifter, always a grifter. Peepstone treasure hunting grift --> Peepstone imaginary golden plate translation grift ---> Prophet, Seer and Revelator grift -----> The Modern LDS Church (the biggest grift of all).

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

As a Mormon I can tell you that many of us recognize that we are still practicing polygamy. John did you know that Nelson is a member of the Skull and Bones and Owl and Key secret society.

[@kriswalker3275]

The only way you can be a mason is by invitation or asking someone you know is a mason to be sponsored. You have to be sponsored into mason lodges.i dated a mason for awhile and he taught me a few things. It's like other groups, it can be really good or really bad according to what is done, how it's run.

[@countrywestern2272]

10 bucks says by next year brian hales will officially be a polygamist

[@kevinedward118]

Did Oliver Cowdery attend Dartmouth?

[@ngatihine6072]

Spalding went to dartmouth and so did hyrum

[@Karli_searches_and_prays]

What sources say Hyrum studied at Dartmouth? Where is it documented?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

He attended the "Moor's Indian Charity School", located on the Dartmouth campus. The MICS shared faculty, founders and facilities with Dartmouth. But it was actually a separate educational institution. From the official LDS website: "Hyrum Smith was born on February 9, 1800. As a child, he showed promise as a student, and at age 11 he entered Moor’s Indian Charity School, where he received the most formal education of any of the Smith children." Technically, MICS is a separate institution. But it was so closely connected to Dartmouth that it's easier to convey the significance of Hyrum's enrollment at MICS by referring to Dartmouth. (Very few people would know about MICS.)