Joseph Smith's Secret Education - The Dartmouth Connection | Mormonism LIVE! 111

[@GaryMcAlister1830]

To: Randy, Bill & RFM I have listed the titles of 17 of the 34 Theological Lectures presented by Professor John Smith below. I’ve been cataloging his lectures for several years. Dr. Bell -- I have Divinity Lectures 1-13 & 32-34, I’m missing lectures 14-31. noted below. Professor Craig Criddle received the lecture photo scans & transcriptions in 2005, from Richard K Behren’s. There’s a lot more than 20 Mormon Doctrines parallels. I’ve discovered around 40 thus far. Note: In 1811, 11 year old Hyrum Smith attended Moor’s Indian Charity School after John Smith passed away from tuberculosis on April 30th, 1809. Dartmouth records Hyrum studying Accounting & Arithmetic. In contrast, Solomon Spalding & Ethan Smith studied theology directly under Professor John Smith. Both Ethan & Solomon’s writings are peppered with John Smith's divinity & scientific lectures. From 1803-1809, Solomon Spalding worked as a land surveyor and was fascinated by the Indian mounds. Spalding described the mounds in great detail in his unfinished draft “Manuscript Story, The Book of Fabius.” Spalding also wrote of the Melchizedek priesthood in his other Manuscripts currently held by the Library of Congress. Keep in mind: Sidney Rigdon was a Master of Swedenborg Theology. Here’s my catalog of Professor John Smith’s Theology Lectures. Recommend citations: Gary McAlister, Professor Craig Criddle & Richard K. Behrens. John Smith D.D. Professor of Divinity & Oriental Languages | Dartmouth College 34 Theology Lectures 1787-1804 12 Scientific Lectures Procured by Dartmouth Alumnus Richard K. Behrens. Cataloged by Gary McAlister. LECTURE 1. There is a supreme and self-existent creator, who is the Father of our spirits. LECTURE 2. The Operation and Attributes of God. LECTURE 3. How and in what respects the Supreme Being is incomprehensible by us. LECTURE 4. The meaning of the light of nature of reason explained. LECTURE 5. The human soul is immortal. opinions of heathen philosophers, concerning the human soul. LECTURE 6. Are we to suppose that this little globe is the only animated part of the creation? LECTURE 7. Planetary Motion Denotes the Existence of an All-Wise Architect. LECTURE 8. Nature operates, according to the laws, which the great Creator has ordained. LECTURE 9. Has the Roman church greatly apostatized from the purity of the Christian faith and worship? External evidence of the truth & divine authority of the holy scriptures and Christianity. LECTURE 10. The Atonement of Christ. The dispensation of Christ. Objections against the Holy Scriptures and the Christian Religion; answered. LECTURE 11. The Trinity examined: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one God, although they subsist as distinct persons, the person of the Father is distinct from that of the Son, as well as that of the Holy Ghost, Quotes from Isaiah. Melchizedek priesthood explored. LECTURE 12. There are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: and these persons are the one, the only living, & the true God. LECTURE 13. There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. LECTURES 14-31 Missing LECTURE 32. God by sending his own Son in the flesh did what the law could not do. LECTURE 33. Melchizedek Priesthood. Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. LECTURE 34. By the first covenant we were required to render perfect obedience; otherwise we were to suffer punishment. LECTURE 7? It appears very probable to me that this new world was peopled both from Africa, and Asia (the north part). It is almost certain the aboriginal inhabitants of America are not the descendants of Jews. Magnetic Mariner’s Compass mentioned. Randy I also have- John Smith’s Science Lectures 1,2,4,5,6,9,10,11,12 Missing 3,7,8 Thank you Maven, Bill & RFM! P.S. I’ve been searching for the missing lectures for 7 years - Gary 916-333-8726 Randy- Excellent job presenting this research material! If you saw the evidence Stanford Professor Craig Criddle has on the Dartmouth connection it would blow your cranium! Professor Craig Criddle’s website MormonLeaks.com goes into great detail on John Smith and the Dartmouth connection. Edit: Fixed broken website link

[@MormonDiscussion]

The mormon leaks link is broken

[@mariyagavrilyuk2013]

Fantastic research Gary!

[@drtwmurphy]

Gary, thanks for summarizing your research here. Very helpful.

[@Thehaystack7999]

As a believing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I like the additional research on the context of the Book of Mormon. I’d say the contradictions about Joseph not being able to write a good letter was not accurate to begin with but rather given from a mother over emphasizing the contrast of her son’s “formal” education. We know Joseph was well read because he was reading the Bible and reflecting on it’s passages at a young age. His writings show he is far better versed than what our formal education produces today. I think Joseph being stuck at home after that leg surgery, and having nothing to do with his time except read, and pray and contemplate the things he is learning set a pattern or habit of education and a desire to talk with Hyrum and Joseph reflect on all that was learned until he can share and hear more at the end of the day. I also would be interested to know if Hyrum attended school at Moors because of the surgeon from there who operated on Joseph. For instance, we know the doctor successfully performed an experimental operation on Joseph which led to a leap in the surgical field. Was Hyrum invited to attend while leaving Alvin to labor with their father, was Hyrum simply allowed to audit class courses but not allowed a formal degree? Was this possibly an agreement of mutual benefit to the Smith family and the school for it now leading in this new operation? What I have understood is that like with every prophet in scripture, they were prepared to receive and recognize what is given. Moses had a similar origin when we look at context rather than literal words on a page. I know I am in the minority here and you promote “exmo” and you feel wrong or mislead by the church, I get that. My understanding is that all these things were unique experiences necessary for the Book of Mormon to come forth, I think we both agree on that but disagree on the motive of the Book of Mormon. I feel like many believers are fundamentally set on scripture while other tend to see more natural and practical functions of God in their lives, seeing it as something very subtle. I do not think God simply gives all the answers to the universe in a single moment and that person automatically becomes an infallible and all knowing prophet. I believe there is much God has to reveal but we can only receive as far as we are able to comprehend, connect that with character and we are more compatible with revelation. But I am guessing you entirely disagree and may not believe in God as we understand it today and that’s fine, your decision. I just wanted to share a believer’s perspective. I am sure that claiming to have a 4 year education with no certificate of proof or authenticity would be a more visible threat to the Smith family at the time, but we know Joseph sought knowledge and read much, he met with Rabbis and preachers, even I do that still because the church does not have a monopoly on all truth. Even Joseph in Egypt was used by God and we don’t discredit him for learning Egyptian from his father. Obviously Joseph was inspired by his knowledge and experiences but we know the Masons did not originally have these ceremonies, nor did the Catholic traditions, nor did the Israelites, but the furthest we find them is in ancient Egypt, and even then are they the original source? Most likely not, but that is the furthest physical evidence we have with some similarities in other more ancient civilizations. A car restored will have similarities to the same type of car which has been handled and customized by various people, but they won’t come out identical inside and out, especially if it’s fitted to modern necessities and regulations to conform to geographical laws. I’m sure you don’t care but I thought I’d offer the perspective, I know your goal is to try and dismantle all things pertaining to the church and you may share “what about this, or that” and I’ll say right now that I won’t get into a back and forth, I was just offering my appreciation and perspective. Thanks again

[@reddish22]

This was an incredible episode--I was sad I couldn't join for a lot of it live due to a conflict I have teaching in the evenings for the next several months. Dr. Bell was fantastic and I really loved what he put together here. Actual history is so much more interesting when we can follow the evidence wherever it goes.

[@purpleslurple5149]

Really incredible episode, and the two best possible callers! It feels like there is a groundswell for this information that is really combining in a way to break the Mormon origin myth open. I'm here for this, and donating!

[@amazinmaven]

Thank you @purple slurple! You'd think with so many people interested in Mormon History and all the documents we have that there wouldn't be anything more to learn. I LOVE episodes like this where people make new connections never seen before!

[@JT0007]

Mormonism for sure is on the way down 🇺🇸

[@sgee-vc1hz]

Dr. Bell showed us that there's nothing particularly special or unique about Mormonism. We're all just Muslim Freemasons now.

[@amazinmaven]

@cindybin2001 Thanks for checking out our channel! We strive to make our episodes as fair and informative as possible around ALL topics related to Mormonism, and our hosts are often entertaining to boot! Assuming you are a fan of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum, no doubt you will find Randy's research into this part of the Smiths' early lives riveting. I know I did! Despite your misgivings, I think this is the PERFECT channel for you. Based on your description of the 20 difficult years you've spent as a keyboard warrior against profanity, I have no doubts at all that you were led here by the Spirit or maybe even Jesus himself! Because I cannot think of a more _tragic_ WASTE of 20 years of anyone's life, even a Christian's, than to dedicate it to police very specific noises that a specifically English-speaking person might choose to say that will cause precisely zero physical harm to neither speaker nor listener, while ignoring the great many noble and just causes Jesus actually cared about, such feeding the hungry, visiting the sick or imprisoned, housing the poor, and protecting children from harm. I think you found us JUST in time for you make some drastic changes to what you find offensive, especially when doing it in Jesus' name and getting it all so horribly wrong! I can only imagine how mortified you'd feel meeting Jesus in heaven, only to admit to his face that you did not use the one precious life you had to make any kind of substantial difference in the amount of deep, deep pain and suffering in the world. Imagine you could do something worthwhile, like advocating for the Church to implement better practices and standards that will prevent more children from being assaulted by predators in their wards, but instead you have to tell Jesus you didn't think it was that important, because you felt it a better use of your time was to go after an even GREATER sin than protecting abusers from consequences: a stranger online wrote the word "shit!" I for one, would be absolutely MORTIFIED to report something like that to the Savior of the World as my life's work. It's the most horrific thing I've heard a Christian say for at least a week! I DO hope you'll give our channel another chance. I recommend starting the Mormon Discussion playlist or Mormonism LIVE from the very beginning. Trust me, you will thank me!

[@amazinmaven]

@cindybin2001 "I won't go to hell for swearing because I repent too damn fast!" ~J Golden Kimball, Mormon Apostle Also: "I may not always walk the straight and narrow, but I sure in hell try to cross it as often as I can!"

[@robertgrey8648]

OUTSTANDING episode!!! Listened to it from Germany. My father was a graduate from Dartmouth in the late 50s and he would have loooved to watch this episode. Bill, RFM, Randy, and Maven, thank you for a fascinating discussion and enlightenment. I think you guys are definitely on to something; this Dartmouth connection may be indeed the cradle of Mormon thought and the 'angel' who instructed Joseph Smith indeed his highly educated brother Hyrum!

[@Geoplanetjane]

Dartmouth’s medical school is now called the Geisel School of Medicine, Theodore Geisel graduated from Dartmouth and his widow donated a large gift in his honor about 15 years ago. Geisel is better known as Dr. Seuss.

[@MormonDiscussion]

CORRECTIONS [ There were two errors in the video presentation for this episode. #1 Randall Bell conflated incorrectly that Joseph’s uncle, John Smith (July 16, 1781 - May 23, 1854) was same John Smith (December 21, 1752 - April 30, 1809) who played a prominent role in the early history of Dartmouth. #2 the letter put up on the screen of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdrey, is in the handwriting of Frederick G Williams.]

[@mouthymormonmetalhea]

Thanks for that info! In spite of that I think it's fairly safe to say that when Hyrum attended Dartmouth, even if he didn't bring home books for Joseph to read, the discussion is like, "I learned this and this! Solomon Spaulding this and this! Ethan Smith this and this! All the people Thomas Murphy mentioned, like Sampson Occum, this and this. Etc. Etc.

[@mouthymormonmetalhea]

Appreciate the transparency and historical and intellectual integrity. Goes back to my argument where I disagree with Bill Reel on "all the critic has to do is present an argument that is more plausible than God actually gave the words to Joseph in a hat." I want good information not false information.

[@jdawg3677]

This episode blew my mind. Never heard this history. The stake president 10 years ago gave an incredible talk about how Joseph leg surgery was such a miracle and how the doctor was led by the spirit to Joseph’s house. Joseph had connections

[@DancingQueenie]

I had a picture of JS laid out on the kitchen table and some old barber/sawbones digging around in his leg with a rusty knife. And of course, the young hero refusing to take anything to ease the pain.

[@jdawg3677]

@@DancingQueenie that was a good point. The alcohol that Joseph refused but would drink the rest of his life. Also wine the used for the sacrament was grape juice.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Yes, for years it was quite common (maybe still the case) for faithful Mormons to tell this story as an example of obedience to the principles of the Word of Wisdom because, reportedly, the doctor wanted Joseph Smith to have some alcohol to reduce the pain or even put him out...but young Joseph refused to let a drop of the evil alcohol touch his lips. That spin on it always seemed a bit odd, since the alcohol was intended for anesthetic purposes and at that point there was no revealed Word of Wisdom anyway. The more likely explanation was that young Joseph knew that amputation was always a possibility (especially given the general tendencies of surgeons at that time) and wanted to have his wits about him so as to prevent them from amputating his leg if at all possible. The latter explanation makes so much more sense, especially given the fact that he never really seemed to demonstrate any particular aversion to drinking alcohol at any other point in his life.

[@DancingQueenie]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N My sister was offered hot ginger tea to relieve nausea and REFUSED it, using that episode from JSs life as an example of obedience to the word of wisdom. She still brags about it.

[@granite2728]

Because he was 4 years old. They also forget to mention that fact. The leaders are criminals.

[@franklinanderson9687]

You know what would be a good little addition to this episode, is a time-line of where Joseph and Hyrum were physically throughout their lives. Especially around the Book of Mormon translation years and beyond.

[@VIRGINIAB0RNANDBRED]

Really happy to hear Dr Murphy mention Rick Grunder. It totally baffles me that Grunder and his research don't come up more often in these conversations. This episode was really fascinating, but a lot of the "discoveries" are already out there. The connections have been made, there's just so much out there that they get lost in the soup. Grunder's book Mormon Parallels is an absolute treasure trove with hundreds of pages reviewing books, pamphlets, periodicals, etc that pre-date Mormonism. Any one of them are worthy of further investigation, there's just so much out there; but these guys are right, someone needs to do the work 😵‍💫... it's a lot.

[@sgee-vc1hz]

Fabulous "on the ground" research by Dr. Randy Bell. I still cannot believe how all these Dartmouth theology and ancient history connections could remain unknown to 99.9% of church members in 2023.

[@amygreen758]

The church has a whole Granite Records Mountain vault in Little Cottonwood Canyon. I pass it all the time, and it's a pretty ominous structure, with all the high security around it. I have no doubt the church has a sleeping history that has been hidden from the public.

[@moniquehulleman1567]

Wow just mind blowing. What a great insight and research you did mister Bell. Amazing episode guys!

[@jeremyfirth]

Are there any plans to publish the theological lectures of Dr. John Smith?

[@monus782]

This was one of the most fascinating episodes you’ve made so far and I’m really grateful that you shared it with the world, definitely gave a lot of context to the time period Joseph Smith lived in

[@JB-xx9ml]

FANTASTIC! CONGRATS on reaching 10k! Well done, keep up the excellent work, it's much appreciated!

[@JohnJLillie]

This is a GREAT interview. I LOVE this type of research. Historical research is awesome

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

This is right up there in top three two or best. Please accept the laurels!!! THANX so much.

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

I say that every episode.

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

I saw people commenting that this was the best M!L episode yet. I was like yeah yeah yeah, every episode is better than the last episode. My mind was expanded into new dimensions with this information. Four thumbs up for Randall, Bill, RFM and Maven with her pickle.

[@williamdavis7926]

Thanks for mentioning my article on Joseph Smith's formal education 🙂 Quick note about the discussion happening, starting at 1:39:30, about the difference between Moor's Indian Charity School and Dartmouth. And also mentioned later, in the exchange with Dr. Murphy, at 02:16:30. Just to clear up a small historical point: Hyrum did not attend Dartmouth. He attended Moor's Charity School. They were two distinct schools, with separate charters. Moor's Indian Charity School (aka Moor's Charity School) was NOT a school or college residing within and under the auspices of Dartmouth when Hyrum attended. In other words, it's not the same situation as the Anderson School of Management being housed within and under the auspices of UCLA (I'm a fellow UCLA grad, by the way -- go Bruins!). Rather, Moor's and Dartmouth were separate institutions, and they remained separate until the early 20th century, when Moor's was finally and officially absorbed into Dartmouth --- approximately 100 years after Hyrum's attendance. Also, in all my research, I have never seen the school called "Moor Academy." I suspect some people may have described it as an "academy" at times (Lucy Smith, for example, did it in her history), though what Hyrum was learning at Moor's Charity School was actually more advanced than what was taught at institutions called "academies" in the early nineteenth-century. So even the generic description of Moor's being an "academy" would not be entirely accurate. And, to my knowledge, anyway, for what it's worth, the school was never officially "Moor Academy" at any point in history. So, they were two legally separate institutions, both started by Eleazar Wheelock. Moor's Charity School received partial funding from missionary societies in Britain (England and Scotland), with the strict purpose of training missionaries to work among Native American populations and also to train Native American students to become missionaries to the indigenous tribes. Dartmouth was created with a separate charter from the state government. In fact, when Hyrum was attending Moor's Charity School, there was a huge legal battling happening at the exact same time over who had the right to govern Dartmouth (a battle between the Board of Trustees of the school versus the state legislature). The main issue revolved around the state's claim to govern a private institution as if it were a state institution. But the state lost the case (Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 17 U.S. 481 (1819)). One of the background issues behind the scenes dealt with funding -- not just funding for Dartmouth, but also the way funds moved back and forth between Dartmouth and Moor's Charity School (not mentioned in the legal case itself, but part of the problem that got the legal case up and running in the first place). Funds from one school were being used to support programs in the other (the British associations were angry, because some of the money they sent to train the Moor's Charity School scholars was redirected to Dartmouth, and they didn't want that). The state wanted to control the funding and administration of Dartmouth (a private institution, along with Moor's, though given a state charter). I am fully aware that some other scholars have conflated Dartmouth and Moor's, saying that Hyrum attended Dartmouth, but that claim is incorrect -- it is a MISTAKE. Cross my heart! They were not the same institution, even though they shared the same campus, shared many of the same instructors, and shared a similar curriculum. I hope that helps 🙂

[@williamdavis7926]

@@raymondjoseph8383 Yes. If we're presenting information as historically accurate, then it's contextually important. A student attending Moor's Charity School had a different focus and a certain set of classes and instruction than a student attending Dartmouth. Moor's students were specifically developing skills for missionary work (such as a heavier focus on sermon composition and delivery, for example), while Dartmouth students did not have that same set of priorities or emphasis of subjects in their instruction. So, understanding Hyrum's experience on the campus really does require understanding where he was a student.

[@samsmom400]

Thank you for sharing such valuable information!

[@samsmom400]

@@raymondjoseph8383 are you serious?

[@samsmom400]

@@williamdavis7926 is that how Smith came up with the name MOORE MAN ... Mormon?

[@williamdavis7926]

@@samsmom400 I suspect not 🙂

[@cptdebbie]

Great episode! ❤❤ I am grateful my knees have been repaired, but I miss the free time low mobility gave me to be a live listener. Hopefully next week I can join my awesome chat friends. I’m very impressed with Dr Bell’s research.

[@perrykim5]

Incredible episode guys!!

[@iamjustsaying1]

Your guest's presentation was a valuable addition to lds historical scholarship and seems to have been carefully hidden going all the way back to JS himself. Bravo!

[@DancingQueenie]

Hyrum spending 4 years learning about preaching to native Americans is interesting considering the BofM was written to them and missionaries were immediately sent out to convert them.

[@tamidawn8383]

Brilliant! Thank you Randy for all your study, and all of you for this brilliant episode. Wow!

[@patricianoel7782]

I just finished reading “The Teachings of Joseph Smith” by Joseph Fielding Smith. Throughout. I was amazed by his verbiage! He really put those Dartmouth years to work! I believe he was a “creative genius”.

[@djdalad]

great episode and observations

[@TheSaintelias]

I love RFMs jokes. They are so specific and sometimes date him. Lol.the fact others don’t always know the references makes them that much more funny. They are great, keep them coming.

[@johngenis344]

Swedenborg also was a submarine designer before there were submarines thought it might be pertinent

[@susangroom960]

I can't help but wonder - could it be possible that Hyrum and Joseph conspired to create the BoM? Hyrum had the theological and intellectual background, and Joseph had the storytelling abilities. The years they spent laying together makes it ripe for imaginations to start creating a narrative.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

It often seems that Hyrum had a much bigger influence on things than most give him credit for. He was happy to let Joe be the celebrity and highly visible leader, but seemed to be able to handle and guide Joe in many ways behind the scenes with his ideas of how things needed to be done. In reading William Law's accounts of his experiences in Nauvoo, it becomes clear that Hyrum was often as much of a force to be reckoned with as Joe was.

[@kpwillson]

I haven't done the research that any scholars have done so it's merely opinion, but I feel like a lot of people were conspiring and using Joseph Smith (whether Joseph knew it or not) to create the church

[@scottrobertson6949]

Absolutely incredible episode!!! Thankyou so much for bringing this enlightenment to us. They say "the Art of creativity -hiding your sources".

[@RyanHawley76]

This was a great episode. Thanks, all!

[@williamcharles2117]

Great episode. And Maven posting some of my Live Chat comments has given me an immortality of sorts (electronic lol).

[@gregganderson5458]

For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither anything hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Luke 8:17

[@jeremyfirth]

That's the definition of "apocalypse", or as translated in the KJV, "revelation". The Book of Revelations is also known as the "Apocalypse of St. John".

[@markschultz8982]

OMG THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING FIND ON THE INTERNET!!! Mind blown 🤯🤯

[@MormonDiscussion]

Have you just found out channel? Hope you’re enjoying the shows

[@countrywestern2272]

What blast🎉 Well done!!!

[@Geoplanetjane]

There is a secret society at Dartmouth with a Nile-/Egypt themed stone building on the Dartmouth campus. It’s called Sphinx. When it was formed, I do not know.

[@scottduede8134]

This is an excellent example of actual peer review taking place.

[@CherieWheeler]

Thanks!

[@DavidCottrell87]

This is so interesting. Thank you for your top notch research, as always, that helps connect the dots. It's very helpful in my deconstruction process.

[@brooklynparkse]

This was FASCINATING!

[@Geoplanetjane]

As a former denizen of Dartmouth, I am eager to hear what you have to say. Many of Dartmouth’s oldest buildings still look the way they did when Joseph was also a denizen. They have been thoroughly modernized on the inside however. With he very best of materials and craftsmanship, however. Remember that Dartmouth was originally founded to educate the native Americans, and they definitely did not teach older students with modern elementary education methods. So, I am sure that JS likely had the advantage of a good tutorial style of education through Dartmouth.

[@DeborahLongtin]

Nice presentation. I, as an interested never mormon, knew of all of these things before. So, it was not new info, but it was nicely put together and presented.

[@markhamblin8194]

What about the oldest brother Alvin? Did he ever attend Dartmouth? And did he graduate?

[@blarsen8]

Why does the church completely skip over this period?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

One thing that bothered me for a long time was how the official First Vision story (the version that was the only version taught in the 20th century) seemed to contradict the more general narrative that portrayed Joseph Smith as being functionally illiterate (to enhance the "miraculous" nature of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon). In the First Vision story, we are introduced to a very young Joseph Smith (age 14) who apparently spends hours reading the King James Version of the Bible, pondering, contemplating and engaging with the text, so much so that when he reads James 1:5, it motivates him to go into the "sacred grove" to pray his heart out in order to find out which church is true. The vocabulary used in James 1:5 is not at a level that you would expect an illiterate, uneducated farm boy to be reading for his own edification and research. So there is that. But then fast forward about half a decade or so and instead of getting smarter and more literate, the narrative has him being an inarticulate, illiterate ignoramus who couldn't even speak in complete sentences. What happened? Was it the fumes from his hat? Or, as we have come to expect, is it just that Joseph Smith never hesitated to just make stuff up if it served whatever narrative he felt would be helpful in any particular context.

[@paulbrungardt9823]

Amazing how Mormon theology changes with the wind. When US. Congress refused to allow Utah statehood, due to polygamy & pedophilia .God came to the Mormon church and told them to give up multiple wives & sex with children... In1978, Jessie Jackson led a planned Salt Lake City protest of Blacks non admission to the priesthood & the temple. 100,000 Black men were organizing a protest in Utah of racist Mormon church teachings; Then, that same year, God then came to the Mormon church and told them black people were now okay. For 180 years, Mormon church taught hateful things towards Gays. Now in 2023, after bad press, God has told the Mormon church to back off the condemnation of Gays...Interesting timing of God's revelations & heat the Mormon Church was feeling.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

About the prestige of Dartmouth in the late18th and early 19th centuries, I think the caller is certainly correct that it would not have been anything like it is today. But given the time and place in question, it certainly would have been a noteworthy institution in the region and regarded as the leading academic institution in the region.

[@michaels4255]

Vermont suffered so badly in the years after the Tambora eruption that many Vermonters permanently left the state and, I have read, it was years before Vermont regained its pre Tambora population level. So it would not be surprising if the Smiths were among the "climate refugees." From 1805 to 1816, that is 11 years, pretty close to what Smith described as "about ten years." At least that part is consistent with the known historical background.

[@MerkieAE]

Solomon Spalding also went to Dartmouth

[@ajadamsv9208]

Just curious, is Maven the official promoter of John Dehlin’s podcasts? Bill and RFM run circles around him in my opinion. 1:58:45

[@MormonDiscussion]

Maven works for both entities. Cross Promoting is essential if you value people having access to the information.

[@juliasummers1770]

Bill, did I hear a sneaky input from you that the Docs showed up from Utah??? What a hoot.

[@Geoplanetjane]

In all of the Ivy League colleges, study of both Latin and Greek was very much of a young man’s education.

[@willmcgarvey1551]

…. So they could learn patriarchy and slavery from the Greek and Roman masters. Especially used that way in the South, but it was also true of Princeton and other first colleges.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

This is where he learnt the word "telestial".

[@Geoplanetjane]

There are amazing quarries in Vermont, especially, for Marble and Granite. And, Dartmouth has a Department of Astronomy and they have their own telescope on campus.

[@davidteeples2558]

Sounds like John Smith was brilliant and that it ran in the family! All those months and years Joseph and Hyrum had together must have been full of conversations about John's lectures.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

While his leg healed he spent a lot of time with his uncle at the Oregon Coast where it was believed that the ocean air would help him heal quicker. During that time he did study constantly. Was he educated enough and smart enough to write the Book of Mormon? Maybe, but there are a few things in the bom that weren't even published at that time that they are now finding to be true. So I haven't made a complete decision as of yet. It will take me a while to get through 2 1/2 hours but will listen and make my decision on what you are saying.

[@CherieWheeler]

I'm so glad Dr Thomas Murphy called in. If you two would collaborate it would be the most definitive explanation on the How, When, Who of the creation of the Book of Mormon. The Why is up for debate.

[@DDoane8]

Preexistence, Continuing Revelation, Three Degrees of Glory, and Top Degree is Celestial Kingdom, Gods Like Mortals, Multiple Gods, Multiple Worlds & Heavens, Continuing Sexual System, are Hebrew (and maybe earlier) in origin (Jewish Mysticism/Kabbalah), and also very Greek and Egyptian, and Jospeh talked of much of this in the King Follett Discourse.

[@Heartsinmelody]

The two corrections noted in the description of the video are rather significant and undermine much of the thesis of Randall.

[@brooklynparkse]

When did we get this new picture of Joseph Smith?

[@Geoplanetjane]

Hanover, NH was and is the dominant cultural and economic location in what is now called the Upper Valley. You might want to give this presentation at Dartmouth. I think you might attract a very interesting audience. How about publishing Dr. Smith’s notes as a book? The boundary between New Hampshire and Vermont is the Connecticut River. Lebanon, NH is adjacent (east of) Hanover. Even though Dartmouth’s name is Dartmouth College, it really is a university. It does have the medical school, the Tuck Business School, a Graduate School where liberal arts Masters and Doctoral degrees are offered, it also has Thayer School of Engineering which has Dartmouth’s undergraduate engineering department, plus two masters’ degrees and Ph.Ds. Dartmouth was the last of the Ivy League Colleges to admit women (1978, I think). It has a very loyal and tight-knit group of alumni, who have been extremely generous to their alma mater., and go out of their way to help each other with investments, jobs, and general societal connections. Approximately 50% of their students receive at least some financial aid. (That means the other 50% are wealthy enough to pay their own way). These numbers may be out of date, but their admissions policy is “need blind” and if a students family income is $70,000 or less, the student receives a 100% grant award. Those from families with incomes up to $250,000 per year receive at least some level of financial aid. As far as I know, they have done away with student loans. Also, they have their own ski area about 7 miles from campus where students can do skiing as PE class. The general public can also ski there. They also have an art museum with a fine collection. Any really smart kid should really consider applying there.

[@gaylasparks]

The Chrislum is a universal religion that the Mormon Church is beginning to lay the foundation to remove ONE GOD, as in the Bible, and adopt little g gods which is related to the occult. Which draws the conclusion that the church is not true!!!

[@elainekoeppel7250]

Joseph as a young boy participated with his parents in reading the Bible every day. He did probably not read but he was there when his parents read the Bible daily

[@leiliyahdecotta]

I just. I JUST. This is wild.

[@andreamesser4580]

Before the Illuminati was called the Illuminati it was called the “order of the bees”

[@samsmom400]

I've never heard that! Do you have a reference for that? That's priceless information.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Did this picture of Hyrum come from Dartmouth? Where did the picture of Joseph come from.

[@jdarkwind]

Really enjoyed this episode. I think Dan Vogel is right that the evidence is still thin to assert anything about Joseph Smith's education. _However_, there are two questions being conflated here, and maybe that's the problem. On the one hand, there's "What did Hyrum learn at Dartmouth?", and on the other hand, there's "What did Hyrum teach to Joseph?" This episode approaches the first question with thoroughness and detail, and with more work, the resources already assembled could probably produce a book that would meet academic standards of rigor. The second question may not be definitively answerable at all, and remain in the realm of speculation forever. So, change the title to "Hyrum Smith's Secret Education" and you're right on the money. RFM is right: Hyrum is this figure who is central to the Mormon story, but somehow also remains a shadowy, uncharacterized figure. Developing his story is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself, and Dartmouth/Moor's Indian Charity School seems to be a key to it (based not only on this, but also on the stuff that Dr. Murphy has compiled).

[@Geoplanetjane]

Leg operations done by Dartmouth doctors. A question, have you looked at source material in Dartmouth’s libraries, including its Rauner Rare Book Library?

[@Roloves-frank]

Does Dartmouth have any record or maps or teachings about the principality of Nehom? That place called Nehom?

[@Geoplanetjane]

Occam is honored at Dartmouth; a beautiful pond on the Dartmouth campus is named Occam’s Pond.

[@Geoplanetjane]

I do not know where the church name came from, but many of the churches in New England are Congregational, whose official name is the United Church of Christ.

[@cherrybakewell1338]

Similar neolithic stone structures can be found in Wales UK. Built by the Druids some chambers are connected to the solstice. The snake has been represented worldwide at early sights like Golbeki Teki . Some believe the snake represents a comet that caused a cataclysmic event on earth that led to a "great flood." Stone lines are also found in South America, which goes on for miles. Some are aligned to other sights and also mark the solstice. Loved every minute of this episode. Nerdy NeverMo I'm learning so much. Plus the chat is informative and hilarious. Win win🕊💌

[@stevenhamblin6067]

Hyrum Smith was only 11 to 16 years old. Little Joseph was 6 to 11 years old. The advanced down load of information talked about is not compatible with what we would consider advanced today. The school was prepatory for college, and was not at that maturity level. It is true that legend and lore are important to young men, but this could simply reinforce the boys acceptance of the Book of Mormon from Moroni. Could Joseph and his brother Hyrum along with a little inspiration dream up the Book of Mormon and a unique religion from these primary influences? Doubtful.

[@christinamarston2421]

Wow the Dartmouth chapel looks so similar to Mormon chapels it’s pretty I miss that part!! The temple the chapels are all nice a beautiful

[@gregganderson5458]

Yes, that was my immediate impression when he showed that photograph.

[@homoerectious2287]

2:23:14 This is vaguely irrelevant. Back then, it would’ve been one of the only “games in town” (meaning, options for education) in the area.

[@nikimcbee]

Sad I missed the live chat for this.

[@randyjordan5521]

Props to RFM for not only mentioning "The Great Race", but also being able to list all of the stars. That tells us that like me, RFM is really old. :-)

[@blarsen8]

Welp, that was super interesting.

[@rufussweeneymd]

I’d be into the idea of an episode that brings together all of the separate evidences of a secular origin of the BoM, including that of this episode.

[@amazinmaven]

That could be a MASSIVE episode, but I totally can see it being done like the one Bill did on the 30,000 foot view of the problems in Mormonism, where all the different things are touched on briefly.

[@steelcity321pb6]

Wow! Love it! Dartmouth is a tourist town in the county of Devon.

[@truebloodnz]

I read a long time ago about a theory that Hyrum was the brains behind the whole thing and Joseph his willing pawn.

[@andreamesser4580]

Ha ha! Is that why we are called Mooremons because Hyrum and Joseph were “Moore men”?

[@scottduede8134]

@2:10:00 Hey, I can chime in here! I am a Freemason (dual membership: Evergreen Lodge #170, AF&AM; Wasatch Lodge #1, F&AM; SR and YR stuff, too.) "Deseret" is not a term you will encounter in any Masonic stuff outside of the Book of Mormon belt. Not part of the wagered steak dinner here; just saying. If I'm wrong, let me know what book/tome/grimoire wherein which it was found.

[@littlebee5048]

I’m wondering about the photos of the men, including John Smith. If he died in 1809 how could there be a photo of him?

[@MormonDiscussion]

[ There were two errors in the video presentation for this episode. #1 Randall Bell conflated incorrectly that Joseph’s uncle, John Smith (July 16, 1781 - May 23, 1854) was same John Smith (December 21, 1752 - April 30, 1809) who played a prominent role in the early history of Dartmouth. #2 the letter put up on the screen of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdrey, is in the handwriting of Frederick G Williams.]

[@willmcgarvey1551]

Dolmans are typical in Celtic areas as markers for burial chambers.

[@jdawg3677]

Great episode! The standard of truth podcast with church historian GErrit Durkmaat always brings up that Joseph smith was not educated. He also says “how could Joseph author the Book of Mormon when he could barely write? I find this so misleading especially by the Church’s lead historian. Gerrit fails to mention he had a scribe and he could whip out a long story or recite the Bible or speak with bible language. Joseph was telling made up stories of the natives from he was a small child as Lucy Mack said in her bio. Get gerrit on the podcast. That would be so interesting to see the back and forth.

[@Geoplanetjane]

Are there any actual historical documents about Joseph and/or Hyrum at Dartmouth, perhaps in their Rauner Rare Book Library at Dartmouth? The Fire and Brimstone preacher, Jonathan Edwards gave his famous Children of an Angry God, in the Western Massachusetts town of Northampton.

[@CherieWheeler]

The Book of Mormon and all related doctrinal publications are a bricologe.... pure and simple...

[@jeremyfirth]

If you look closely at the Utah State Seal, or the Utah state flag, you'll see a beehive with seven bees around it, which is explicitly a Masonic symbol, along with a beehive symbolizing Industry (which is the word that also appears in both the seal and the flag).

[@-e-k-]

Just listening to your interesting podcast, having dived deeper into mormonism only recently: I would add to all your analyses some psychology, which we as people of the 20th and even 21th century cannot leave out of the equation. Imagine this boy Joseph, lying in bed with a painful injury for month, wishing nothing more than being able to go to school, getting all education in he can ever grasp, making people teach him and read whatever he can ( there had not been any distraction by tv, let alone internet…, the mind was perfectly receptable). Then make something like a severe narcisstistic injury out of this situation. And think about the „symptoms“ of malignant narcissism: pathological envy, pathological lying in order to get control over people, over their minds, their hearts, their money, often combined with a very high grade of intelligence, copying the wisdom of others and preying on the uneducated, all this combined with misogency, lack of any emotional empathy, cruelty, extraordinary ability to manipulate empathic people into giving up their lives for his personal benefit, making them believe almost anything in an endless hunger for power and status… I think this is another way to get close to this person and the holy mess, I mean unholy mess, he left behind.

[@ikaramba3954]

Randy’s research on earthworks could benefit from Caleb Atwater’s 1820 publications. Also his Muslim connection would increase if he found a more detailed account of Muhammad’s ‘first vision’ experience.

[@Geoplanetjane]

There are quite a few BYU graduates who get advanced degrees at Dartmouth, MDs especially. Their families are a big contribution to the Lebanon, NH LDS Ward’s Primary.

[@jeanettedavis9471]

Can you do this episode again with the right information? It is too confusing for me with all the names being thrown out to really follow where the truth is and the mistake is.

[@raindance1962]

Interesting how Joseph Smith seemed comfortable in deceiving followers, without the bat of an eyelid so to speak. Hyrum was a bit of a dark horse and must have been knowingly in on the deceit. Or was Joseph Smith the ultimate con man that could easily con even his nearest and dearest. I am intrigued.

[@coalhouse1981]

Great esipode, I do think you should of at least mentioned there is debate over whether Hyrum was a mason . Bruno says yes. Dan Vogel says no. The Method Infinite is very interesting book and I recommend it but some it’s claims stretch too far I think

[@brianlipscomb6550]

I would note that Abraham Lincoln had less formal education than Smith and he seems to have done okay...

[@samsmom400]

That's exactly what came to my mind!

[@Geoplanetjane]

In the early years of all the now powerful and wealthy Ivy League universities, none of them were particularly large. But all of them were very important, when you think of the status of most of the North American continent, still being in the hands of the native Americans and the land still wilderness.

[@HoratioIsHere]

I found this episode fascinating. Many reasons. Perhaps at the top is it demonstrated the stark difference between the more systematic, academic approach of Randall and RFM and the more emotion based responses from Bill. And RFM on the tee shirt gag at the end. That guy is a sleeper, he isn't entirely in line with the exmo community. Just saying.

[@Geoplanetjane]

There is a large Swedenborgian Church in San Francisco.

[@beastshawnee]

Also those early colonizers who wrote books connecting Natives to Hebrews were just using their imaginations. Incorporation of any local Native legends is gross negligence but it happened everywhere as colonizers moved west and tried to convert tribes to Christianity. Every single white animal story and legend was turned into “That was an angel of god!See! Jesus already came to tell you!” It was relatively effective as scattered, broken and barely alive survivors of the multiple smallpox pandemics saw it was fo their advantage to convert or be killed. It was allll part of the genocides-the erasure of Native Culture and myth along with the land grabbing. The entire continent is stolen lands. When people claim they believe in property rights-well then they can give it right back. Leave the land in your will to the local tribes who remain. LAND BACK!

[@timhansen234]

RFM and his Unicorn joke... Look up the Moyle horse and its Mormon connection... some of the original stock was supposed to be owned by Brigham Young...