Kernel vs Neuralink: Two approaches to brain-computer interfaces | Bryan Johnson and Lex Fridman

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Bryan Johnson: Kernel ...
Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
- Four Sigmatic: foursigmatic.com/lex and use code LexPod to get up to 60% off
- NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour
- Grammarly: grammarly.com/lex to get 20% off premium
- ExpressVPN: expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free
GUEST BIO:
Bryan Johnson is the founder and CEO of Kernel, OS Fund, and previously Braintree.
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
SOCIAL:
- Twitter: / lexfridman
- LinkedIn: / lexfridman
- Facebook: / lexfridman
- Instagram: / lexfridman
- Medium: / lexfridman
- Reddit: / lexfridman
- Support on Patreon: / lexfridman

[@MoneyMotivation360]

My legs are paralyzed from a car wreck & I’m rooting for this!

[@MoneyMotivation360]

@eblman I will not be on the experimental end of this. Lol

[@mikelary88]

I’m rooting for this for you also. We live in such an exciting time.

[@xDMrGarrison]

Rooting for ya man. I'm excited for you to one day walk again.

[@keithsweet8840]

@@mikelary88 people are sayin that the last 50 years,,,its all suppressed,,till the military deem it non threatning ,and profit forming,,,..

[@YellowKing1986]

Just take this one:

[@CornyBum]

Something that occurred to me while listening to this is the possibility that with something like Neuralink, or perhaps even Kernel, our brains may come to develop new types of what may be interpreted as mental disorders when coming to this new symbiotic relationship (at least according to Neuralink's portrayal) with AI and such. Will people even develop a dependence on it such that if disconnected, they experience withdrawal or some other negative psychological consequences?

[@martin-fc4kk]

good question, never seen it before!

[@martinanatali4585]

@@martin-fc4kk Same

[@TQoE_2021]

There's only one way to find out!

[@Ungtartog]

People are going to prefer non-invasive if it is an option.. even if there is some loss of fidelity. The advantage of brain-interface is something that I think will be evident to most people.. but there is an obvious risk with a surgical procedure and an implant you can't easily remove if you decide you don't like what it's doing to you. I've always preferred an analog OFF switch that fully depowers a device. In similar vein, I'm uncomfortable with implanting a non vital device that I can't easily separate myself from.

[@RoyalMountedAnkleBiters]

A noninvasive is what will go mainstream imo. An invasive hardware might be required for certain jobs or individual situations where near instant info transfer speed is necessary but I believe noninvasive is the key.

[@bveilll2011]

Always a great show

[@JackFeelsNerves]

"We choose to build brain interface devices and do the other things... not because they are easy, but because they are HARD!"

[@Inquiring]

Yes

[@suzanne1430]

@@glazed6098 🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭

[@diraziz396]

Great. Welcome Back Lex

[@Lucuskane]

Looking forward to brain computer interface

[@AyodeleAmadi]

I have ataxia 3. I've invested in crispr, but I think that this type of tech could be the answer

[@whogan84]

I'm a retired Army interrogator / MSO type suit. I'd be willing to wear one whilst interrogating a potential HVT just to see the results. Sounds like an interesting reveal. Can you imagine the light show?!

[@psramrod3]

If one is invasive and one is not, surely they both have their place. They can both be used at the same time no? Double the data. A real-time cross referencing of brain activity between multiple devices must be better than the nonparallel alternative.

[@foxabilo]

What would happen if there was a large CME event while you had electronics in your brain?

[@jaredbeckwith]

Great episode, I record brain activity at a hospital interested in BCI’s

[@zithyak8758]

I would like to be a test subject Neuralink.

[@AlaskaJiuJitsu]

Just researching for a project

[@eSKAone-]

Last sentence 💟

[@Present4]

There will be a huge market for this tech. Get in when the IPO hits.

[@Ungtartog]

lol.. that was one of the first things I checked when he started to explain what he was doing.. still too early for that

[@noneofyourbusiness8625]

IPO? Yeah if your lucky. Space-X has never had an IPO because they received enough private funding. I'd assume a technology like this would recieve the same treatment. Best bet is find a company that was offered to invest a percentage in the company and invest in that company.

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Non-invasive does not send data to the brain, just reads brain activity. Really not the same kind of product if you cannot send data to the brain.

[@vytautaskleiza1448]

I believe that a BCI does not imply neural stimulation necesarilly

[@catminion1425]

I agree with you not Vytautas Kleiza

[@chaoticnipples3405]

Johnson kinda looks like Wells mixed with Thon

[@Potus4547]

Elon Musk is DEAD WRONG about the "Every 15 years a new tech emerges" . The correct "quote" should be: "Every 15 years a tech is maturing enough to be exploited by somebody that understands its usefulness".

[@MaLcH10R]

If you payed attention, it wasn't Elon Musk who said that but the neuroscientist he spoke to before starting Kernel.

[@Kidd-nt3jo]

VHS or Betamax?

[@wilkensbrito2879]

Always wait for Opinions 1st

[@Kevin-od2xb]

Could you infer neural activity through the reactions of the eyes alone?

[@tonoornottono]

there are some trained magicians who are capable of guessing whatever word you’re thinking through micro movements in the face. a well trained AI, fed sufficient body language information, would be able to guess your thoughts. this is actually explored a bit in the book 1984, where the television screens are constantly monitoring the body language of the civilians in order to make dissidents disappear.

[@niacinberry5]

I believe in the absolutely noninvasive procedure ..it is known as. Remote Viewing ?:)) Natural for many..and easily taught to any devoted to it's complexities of accessibilities ?:)

[@warhill30]

VAM VR, if you have a VR headset go blow your mind with technology you didn't know exists

[@travis3371]

I don’t like how he isn’t transparent about what they are rolling out

[@aaroncamss1623]

im so fucking ready for nuero link and everything else after that

[@sneakersforthelow9754]

Lex, you need to get someone on the show who knows whats actually going on with the current SEC lawsuit and Ripple labs, not only for XRP but how it (Regulations) will effect all of cryptos...... Lex this is a huuuuuuge topic man..... I can expand if desired via whatever....... but I reaaallllllyyyyy know this episode would be a huge huge huge hit for you because you have the perfect podcast show for a topic like this..... You NEED to have someone who actually knows whats going on not only in the lawsuit but also how Utility/use cases are what is taking over in what seems to be a very lowkey, simultaneous manner.... PLEASE atleast look into it, I hope you see this. All love brother, keep up the amazing job. Love the show❤❤❤ I really hope you see this....

[@yannickvanzantvoort661]

Brain Computer Interfaces will change the world. The future will be so cool

[@Lucuskane]

Cool, depends

[@deadmanzghost8018]

No more secrets for anyone .....just saying 🤔🧠

[@Lucuskane]

@@deadmanzghost8018 Or a new need for brain cryptography

[@tazmanceltic]

Cool isn't the world I'd use lol more like risky

[@virtualknight5669]

@@deadmanzghost8018 there are more than one possible scenarios where you choose not share your thoughts with other almost everything will still the same just bandwidth will increase dramatically

[@ConnoisseurOfExistence]

The non-invasive BMIs will serve the role to increase the interest in the BMI technology, to open the minds of people about its possibilities, and to create more demand for it. Later, the invasive BMIs like Neuralink will pick up, because of the higher resolution and bandwidth.

[@joemcbobinite]

theyre two different products like apples and oranges. theyll be used for their own seperate uses.

[@Lefachie]

Dang I want to work at one of these places :/

[@blakephillips4335]

Tons of avenues, just have to inform yourself. I'm personally excited about storage systems. All of these new next generational interfaces will have to have scalable storage solutions, right? 😁

[@Lefachie]

@@blakephillips4335 I mean yeah but I want to be part of the birth of something new. If that makes senses??

[@blakephillips4335]

@@Lefachie I think I understand you right. Higher academia or niche govt. contract ready research groups are great proxies into that kind of access. Look at computer science, physics, mathematics, human behavior, etc. And apply it into these research groups and soon enough you'll be around the right people with the right information to expound upon!

[@Lefachie]

@@blakephillips4335 Sounds like solid advice tbh. Equip yourself so that when the opportunity presents its self you’re ready.

[@blakephillips4335]

@@Lefachie I'll have to follow that advice myself, good stuff! Haha.

[@RipitSlipit]

It's pretty clear that this guy and musk agreed to work separately so they can explore both possibilities, instead of going all in on one direction. The story Bryan describes of him deciding to go down the path of non invasive with no genuine insight to explain the shift in thought, is cute

[@gmurray7837]

He said they were engaged am I hearing things

[@felix8307]

lol

[@varunsuresh22]

it feels like he doesn't mind being acquired.

[@johnkingshares]

I think you’re right, and would fit with his past experience. Not necessarily a bad thing - if the next owner can push the research to the next level.

[@jeremyellismusic]

I can kinda see where this is going to go optimistically, with the power to control a space ship with your brain, etc, etc... but also, good lord, so much evil will come of this.

[@gatedrat6382]

Like everything in the world

[@jeremyellismusic]

@@gatedrat6382 Like with puppies and rainbows? Everything? Tacos? :) Have a good day.

[@rukna3775]

neuralink would be gamechanger, netflix on one thread and minecraft on another :)))

[@Themayseffect]

i swear i heard D'Lon Musk at the beginning lmao....

[@davidsflooringco]

This is what I was saying non evasive is not practical esp. if want to access deeper parts of the brain plus as Elin wants to make it MASS produced as little as 5k a surgery

[@vidalskyociosen3326]

He’s vocalist of AcDc Lol

[@OferNRaz]

He sounds like a CEO that already knows that he bet on the wrong technology. It's never too late to pivot.

[@chromiumdragon8190]

If dumb people are sheep now, will new brain interfaces cure them or will they be turned into super sheep? We need to know first.

[@123mimung]

I think you may be cured, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[@ToastyWaffle456]

I doubt there would be a curing. Many before the internet had the same thoughts and the results were muddy for the masses, such as with the most popular search engine by an insane margin filtering results to influence cultural development and political systems etc. I used to be excited by technology like this but after watching Google, Apple, Intel, Microsoft and others over the years the good intentions seem to die out very fast. It's not that the products such as the OS or hardware improvments themselves are bad, it's the sly and gentle manipulation for control over people's psyche and money that has been disgusting to watch. I understand and have sympathy for them engaging with consumers like this but only to a limited extent. Their power is far beyond manipulative ads run by almost all other companies that sell goods and services because they can control the flow of information itself for the vast majority of the people using computers, especially smartphones that many have their faces glued to. Honestly when I see facial recognition, brain implants, nation-wide hardware tracking I now focus in on the negatives.

[@garyhelland8150]

Non invasive is no different than standing outside a stadium and wondering what is going on invasive is awesome tell your buddy Elon to sign me up Pronto !!!

[@catminion1425]

I know right!?

[@MikeKleinsteuber]

I think Neuralink has very limited uses as it's a really gross, very invasive procedure. Kernel is pretty gross too but at least not in an invasive way. It's just that you can't really pinpoint data collection very well. In many ways it's similar to EEG and therefore will always have limited uses. In order to get more accurate with data collection it'll need many more 'electrodes'. Then again Kernel will always only collect data from a shallow depth of neurons. Deeper neurons are always going to be out of reach. We need another technology to be able to collect data or influence those neurons. The reality is is that we're never going to get very far without a new tech.

[@DivyangM]

Why video is reddish!!

[@bigbobabc123]

Your phones night mode

[@SpicyMelonYT]

airly

[@keithsweet8840]

there is a guy named Delon Musk..

[@waedjradi]

I'm sure brain-computer interfaces is already here and being used in large populous cities, in the United States.

[@michelle4688]

They are.

[@raptorrogue4227]

Psycho-pass seems more and more close

[@TurboB5]

Who the heck disliked this?

[@JesusChristDenton_7]

Luddites.

[@XenoTravis]

Man after like 4 podcasts lex gets insanely boring. Like holy crap it puts all the effort on the guest

[@Dan-lp9bq]

Mark of the beast

[@gurumage9555]

Your ever-changing "Mark of the Beast" myth has lost relevance and reception in the modern world. Go peddle your fantasies somewhere else.

[@JesusChristDenton_7]

@@gurumage9555 For real.. they keep saying this or that is the mark. They're just luddites.

[@leodaigle8176]

Been watching lex for the last week or so. Not gonna lie, haven’t seen anything that demonstrates intelligence.

[@lillygordon9121]

Jaw drop

[@MongoGamer]

I was born an asshole I'm hoping this could help!

[@cs7623]

The promises elon is making with neural link is unwarranted, you wont be able to download information and become a master at it, basically anything joe rogan says about neural link is completly overblown. However, the medical applications, like in parkinsons, epilepsy, movement of computer interfaces with signals of the mind, and spinal stimulators are in the realm of possibility. But overall elon is way overhyped. this guy is way more realistic. Overall, these devices already mostly exist in a hospital setting. They are essentially trying to make Brain interfaces mainstream, like VR headsets.

[@JS-bk4pn]

Anything Elon Musk touches always turns out amazing.

[@techpriest4787]

@@JunkBondTrader and that tunnel...

[@HappyLasers-uu9rr]

I have had bci implant placed without my consent this is used as a torture device and they have a log in I’m hoping fbi can track there ip address they smell taste and feel everything you can use a magnet neg pull to place on your head to see we’re the implant is I hope this helps someone going threw this we need to stand together and fight this before do it to children thank you

[@joja4323]

PLEASE STOP WITH THE BAD FILTERS

[@deadmanzghost8018]

Technology has existed for years all there doing now is making it commercial for the masses.

[@susanwoodward7485]

How about training humans to access cosmic consciousness, as do yoga and other meditation sciences, instead of all this external non-biology technology? Maximize your own power, don't rely on someone/something else's.

[@fullmetalflix5195]

How about both

[@susanwoodward7485]

@@fullmetalflix5195 I don't see a balance of effort, money, research on both - it's all about the machine interfaces. Nor do I see the wisdom and ego-regulation required to develop and implement the machine interfaces safely. The allure of fame, power, control and just plain curiosity are huge temptations for some people and cloud judgement. Self-empowerment requires extreme focus, discipline, wisdom, compassion and ego regulation - things not routinely developed in the population at large. Would it be better to repair and regrow your spinal cord, neurons, muscles, etc., or forever be dependent on foreign material implants? I know what I would choose, but for others being hooked up to technology ultimately controlled by other people might be fine.

[@susanwoodward7485]

@@JunkBondTrader Yoga is the technology of maximizing awareness and knowledge - far better than some very limited folks trying to design AI (ridiculous phrase). AI and brain-machine interfaces are for the uneducated and/or undisciplined. Yes, humans want/need to advance, so let's train them to do so instead of invalidating their potential to do so and arguing that the only way to advance is through external technology. Yes, the market will dictate, but by whom for the benefit of whom - any idiot can see the damage that market-mentality absent wisdom and social conscience has done. If you are indeed what your handle suggests, you know this to be true.

[@blakephillips4335]

@@susanwoodward7485 I like what you said about self empowerment. The current direction of HMIs must be developed under the human scope, it's why they are human machine interfaces. Accounting for complex, chaotic, offnominal situations under neural throughput will be an unethical project. In my opinion, it lacks many foundations which governs it's interoperability right now.

[@pestiferousvibe4925]

Womp

[@mechanomics2649]

I'd take anything Musk says with a grain of truth. The guy has a track record for overpromising and under delivering. His best ideas aren't actually his at all. He's demonstrated on more than one occasion that he really doesn't know much about the fields he's centered himself in. He's just a guy with a bunch of money, if he tells you the sky is blue, you'd be better off going outside and checking for yourself than taking his word for it.

[@agr8trip]

Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk... 🤮

[@deadmanzghost8018]

Technology has existed for years all there doing now is making it commercial for the masses.

[@adi331]

Well that's the hard part.