*Your Harley Engine Builder Was an IDIOT* Or Were They? - Harley Piston Ring Alignment Kevin Baxter

So your Harley Davidson needs an engine built a second time and your new Harley engine builder finds the piston ring gaps are lined up. Is your previous builder an idiot or is your new builder not educated on piston rings? Could their be another reason you are burning oil or are down on power? Watch this video to find out. Engine Tech and hard facts with Baxter.
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Pro Twin Performance and Baxter's Garage
Nashville, TN
678-226-9651

[@smiley4288]

Tell the story….please we all love a motorcycle story 🤞😎

[@tomjones4093]

I can't get over the fact you don't a couple of million subscribers. You put out such outstanding content. I only wish you hadn't moved farther away from me when you did. I had hoped to bring my bike to you. Nashville is now at bit to far. Keep up the great work.

[@tomupchurch4911]

Tell the story!! Kevin's genious shines again.I build all my engines & never an issue. Kevin builds my next one.

[@Kwhopperfan]

This is the greatest explanation of this engine assembly concept I’ve ever heard. I knew that you offset them for break in and I knew they were supposed to float in the groove between the piston and cylinder wall, but beyond that it had never been so thoroughly explained thank you! 👍🏼

[@gregread6278]

Hey Kevin. Use this towards the fundraiser for the bikes

[@KevinBaxter]

WOW Greg...Thank you SO MUCH sir. When the pittance comes thru from KZbin, I will make sure to dedicate this amount to the fundraiser. The kiddos (and I) appreciate you sir!

[@timnevitt2993]

as a contractor i do the same. i never talk bad about another contractor

[@donf1526]

Awesome info as usual. I have a request.... could you do a video on how you would break in a brand new Harley right off the showroom floor? What would you do in the first 50 miles? What would you do in the next miles up to 500? That would be super helpful for not only myself, but many, many others.

[@jonnygotaboomboom2906]

The answer to your question is simple... It's because you're a mad scientist / professor and any able minded person would want YOU to be the one to work on one's bike, period.! Keep the knowledge coming, brother, you're amazing.!!

[@tomeoftheancient2225]

That explanation of ring wear was really interesting. I did not realize. Thanks for taking the time; and yes, please tell the story.

[@highwaylover389]

I just went through this very exact situation but the shop that repaired my engine found that both cylinders were severely deformed and had to bore them 10 tho and get a set of pistons made. Always enjoy learning from your vast wealth of knowledge.

[@roaddog9222]

Professor, Thank you for the technical explanation, I truly enjoyed this video. I wish I lived closer to Nashville, I would bring my bike to you.

[@lawrencetrapani5623]

Thank you for your knowledge and opinion in good common sense manner! You are Appreciated for your comments and knowledge! You check all the Boxes.

[@jameslanning8405]

A fan keeps me alive in this ole hot trailer! I'm used to the noise of a fan. When you apply the rings to a piston, aren't the ring tips pretty much touching? I don't mean they're jammed together, but just barely touching, if it's the right ring for the piston and the cylinder. So oil consumption would be barely there, not something you'd notice if everything's right from the start. I would think, that since 'as you say,' the rings turn on their own, they 'float,' in the piston gaps, oil consumption is minimal, unless there's something more going on to cause that. And as they might turn to align the ring gaps, they would also continue to float around and misalign them as well? This situation could potentially apply to all piston engines, bikes or automobiles or even diesel engines. Tanks Kevin for the tips. As always, you're a singular pea all alone in the big pod of 'normal,' mechanics, dealerships, and shade tree DIYs. Idf there was one singular thing I noticed, owning an HD, has all sorts waiting to fleece your pockets for dollars! The HD world seems pleagued, cursed maybe, with every sort of 'know it alls,' that will say or do whatever, for a few dollars more!

[@pepelimantour3757]

Your info was very well presented and I as an ex engine builder appreciate your education of the dynamics of ring functionality to both mechanics and aspiring mechanics. As a note if you ever wonder or question if rings rotate consider a two stroke bike engine with cylinder ports and why the piston rings must be pinned to avoid the gap aligning with a port. Cheers and thank you from sunny south africa

[@robertupshaw8986]

Not only are your stories informative, they are also extremely entertaining! And I don't even OWN a Harley......(yet).

[@loucurti]

Your last comment about the two test u should do if you suspect a motor problem are right spot on. And again thank you for all your videos. Enjoy the holidays and I will see you in the spring. 👍

[@tommygreer9921]

Tommy from Florida Kevin your knowledge is priceless I'm a graduate of MMI 1990 didn't make a living in the Motorcycle industry made my income in lawn equipment repair never lost my passion for motorcycles so this knowledge about ring rotation with the cylinder fluctuation under torque is an eye opener I bought a 1987 Heritage in 2022 it was rideable got some time riding then it's age started showing its self well I parked it started my rebuild anyway thanks again for these videos cheers

[@Pork-Chopper]

Let's not forget to use a good quality "break-in" oil to help with "ring sealing", n follow the speciied break-in, and oil changes with the proper weight n viscosity oil for your engine application.

[@allan9584able]

Well said mate ,it's clear you know your stuff

[@mikecon7634]

Of course we wanna hear the story. :)

[@markdaley71]

You are a font of engine knowledge sir. If only I lived closer so that you could do my stage 2 but I'm in the UK .

[@minigpracing3068]

I've seen manuals show 120 degree spacing for the gaps, not Harley specific manuals but other manufacturers.

[@jaywelch3434]

I Love it when you tell the Story!!!😂😂 very informative info, Thanks for sharing your Knowledge!!!

[@upsidedowndog1256]

I have seen rings line up on the aircraft engines I work on. A short flight will usually get the compression numbers back up to spec. When it's a fresh overhaul it can be a little embarrassing but as you said, it happens!

[@raylocke282]

Mr Baxter knows his stuff.This episode about piston rings is new to me.

[@peterscully4961]

I put off watching it due to the catch line, but this is 100% correct both the position of the rings upon disassembly being irrelevant, and the value in setting up staggered gaps before break-in - something we found long before modern technology on cylinder finishes.

[@joecummings1260]

I was through this with Mack Truck 40 years ago. They used to have a piece of paper like your cardboard in the box with the cylinder kit. I knew they rotated because I tore down lots of factory engines and they weren't matching the paper. I have to say though very few of them had the gaps aligned on teardown

[@geoffreyfox7618]

All rings, no matter what engine type, rotate and do at some point line up, a faint scratch will keep rings lined up

[@holisecleveland2859]

Kevin, I appreciate your videos because they give us important information that we would not have normally. this particular video gives me two critical bits of information. 1 - The people that i am dealing with are dishonest and it is a strong sign that they, if a problem happens with a job that they had previously done on my bike, they will no doubt fabricate a reason for the problem that leaves them innocent of any blame, 2 - Either they are clueless as to why the rings got aligned or the figure that they can blow smoke up a ignorant customer that sets them up to cover themselves for future mistakes. Either way I would pack my stuff up and go elsewhere in hopes of finding a good, honest and experienced shop like yours. Thank you for who you are and what you do for the biker community!

[@Jim_Berry]

Speaking of rings, do you use low tension rings on your engine builds or do you higher tension and thicker rings? If you use thicker/higher tension rings, what is the difference in heat generation and overall engine temps?

[@guyconnell2250]

Good info of course. I would add that, what you said about the initial few miles/several minutes of run time is crucial to how the engine will perform and the longevity of it. In spite of this I still hear about people "breaking it in for a thousand miles" before getting it tuned.

[@KevinBaxter]

I plateau hone all cylinders...this greatly reduces break in time and promotes the best possible ring seal as soon as possible also reducing contamination. I will often lap rings as well. Without plateau honing, break in can take quite a bit longer...but 1000 miles of "really take it easy and baby it" doesn't promote ring seal. We agree and are saying the same thing. Thanks!

[@davidsartin5708]

Well put. Thank you. TELL the story.

[@davidetchellsetchells4692]

As a retired aerospace engineer, I approve this message👍💯

[@JoeFurtado-xv5no]

Kevin outstanding video very informative I always learn something every time I watch you keep up the good work

[@knowname23]

I like what you’re doing here. Kudos Sir

[@rickykeaton9236]

I learned from my own experience, trailering my Bikes and riding only at rallies. You sit idle in traffic a lot and then you load the Bikes back in or on the trailer and travel home, idling in traffic and only putting about 10,000 miles on your bike in 10 years. Your engine is worn out 😳When I was younger. I rode my bike to the rallies and never had a problem with wearing out my engine before 60 or 70,000 miles. Live and learn,it keeps your shop really busy. Love your videos and I want your Roadrunner ❤😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@jeancharleslariviere5598]

All this knowledge and experience for a few $ a month. Wow !!! Thanks Kevin

[@KevinBaxter]

You are very welcome! Thank you so much for your ongoing support!!!

[@unwrangler11]

I’m curious, please tell the story!

[@craigssellingmine]

@kevin Do you often see ring gaps lined up or is it a rarity? did it really cause issues?

[@danbarrette9888]

Great explanation.

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad it was helpful!

[@theaverage7550]

Ya, please tell the story. This is really great information. Thanks!

[@Ghost-vf2li]

Tell the story. Thanks for the videos. I have learned a lot from them.

[@whip-its_dad4239]

I've taken apart a lot of engines ,big and small and never seen them in a row but not as I think they were installed . I sure didn't know they rotated ? Thank you for your effort of making these videos .

[@hankhamern5456]

Thanks for sharing, I wondered about the alignment on the rings movements

[@JonnyBabyaka]

Every shop who says another shop is an “idiot” are always proven to be worse/trash. A shop that just does the job and gives a bill are the best.

[@KevinBaxter]

I LOVE this comment. Simple and well said. Thank you sir. All the best.

[@vidvidbiker]

Looking to learn - what is it about idling that makes the gaps line up.

[@LawrenceBailey-dm1zc]

Like your videos, you are a very talented person. Thank you for your honesty

[@craigssellingmine]

Learn something new everyday here! Thanks!

[@jim1407]

Exactly, when I was in sales I never badmouthed the competitor, it’s sleazy and unprofessional.

[@charlesd6459]

Superb knowledge Thanks for teaching us this

[@eddielangford57]

Thanks Kevin

[@jackwillson8099]

Rings movie been building engines for 35 year never had a major engine problem, because it will not leave till I break it in 100 miles or in the engine stand ,but you can still have problems, there way to may green horns out there lol

[@p.s8950]

I appreciate the info and respect your ability. But a couple years ago i picked up a 2000 jeep tj with a siezed 4 ltr. 4 cyl. Motor. I got another old used motor and stripped both down to nuts and bolts. I built one engine out of the best looking parts from the two. No torque specs or nothing other than a Milwaukee driver. That engine ran great and is still on the road. What a fluke. LoL

[@libertywraith249]

I'd love to hear the story.

[@JohnGallagher-up2yb]

Thanks for info .😊

[@edspencer7121]

Very informative. Thank you.

[@hborrero7080]

Thank you very much for your insight I really appreciate your videos and look forward to the next one! You articulate many things very well for those who might wouldn't understand otherwise.

[@jd03hd42]

I am having a M8 107 built right now. Cam bearing went out motor toast. Been watching your tear down videos now this one very informative.

[@tomconte1765]

If the rings wear into the crosshatch pattern to seal, then they spin, doesn't that start the process all over again?

[@schachat01]

Hi Kevin-for the DIY home mechanics it would be helpful on your cardboard chart to indicate what the numbers represent eg. top compression ring, 2nd compression ring, oil ring, oil expander ring, oil ring-also the sequence of installation of the rings-make it idiot proof. Furthermore, the HD manual for 2008 Softail seems to contradict your chart- eg. Front Cylinder; 1&5 (expander ring & top compression ring) @ 4 on the clock, 2 (bottom oil ring) @ 7 on the clock), 3 (top oil rail) @ 2 on the clock, 4 (2nd compression ring) @ 10 on the clock-this is the top view of the piston facing the front of the engine-maybe I have missed a trick on your inverted view.

[@carlturchiarelli9234]

Kevin I know you’re a busy man, but I value your opinion greatly. Thus said do you believe there is any advantage to having a external breather system on a twin cam ?

[@brentcaudle8602]

Thanks!

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir. I appreciate the support!

[@theodavies8754]

Just tell it like it is. Straight up either way is fine. Information is only accurate or inaccurate to whatever degree. I'm just a clockmaker but I'd build an engine to the information I've found from your channel. Liked and subscribed.

[@joellaurin9007]

Tell the story!

[@edcase3767]

My Harley engine builder was an idiot ....he left 6 piston out of my 598 Big Block Ford....after me telling him I'm not allowed to own sharp objects or anything with only 2 wheels...love your channel !!!!

[@KevinBaxter]

thanks....sorry you had a bad experience. all the best to you sir.

[@williamrenner2504]

Tell it...

[@laurentruesdale4088]

Subscribed when i found your channel some time ago.

[@thomasadams9701]

Twin cam rocker support treads upgrade. Is there better Inserts than what Harley installed?

[@michaelstenson4228]

What is your recommended fresh motor start up heat cycle procedure?

[@tm-dx7vr]

Kevin, not sure if stupid question, but if they line up during idle, they will eventually spin while under load? I would assume, they are always moving around.

[@tooltimze]

Another informative video,thanks Kevin!!!

[@Jhood0729_jerrymesser]

Tell the story we love being enlightened

[@HellfighterPreacherman]

I want to hear the story as well.

[@rsbharley4766]

Great video Kevin , lots of excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to share. In your opinion what is more reliable a twin cam or m8 engine for longevity ? Take care, Cheers

[@JohnBlair-p2z]

tell the story!

[@MoeLarrycurly1]

Good for you I think you're ahead above the rest

[@Chaplain161]

In this video, you are covering the mechanical break in of piston rings. What about the chemical break in of the piston rings with a mineral based (non-synthetic) break in oil, high in ZDDP, low in detergent and no friction modifiers?

[@KevinBaxter]

You will see this in an upcoming video...specifically about oils. Stay tuned...

[@minigpracing3068]

The big bore kit I put on my Buell XB specifically said use break in oil, which of course I did.

[@adampletcher1825]

Tell it

[@gregkistner1955]

Thanks for the info

[@benkrom2737]

If cylinder has a even the tiniest of a score, end gaps will line up 🤷‍♂️. Oil consumption is usually caused by riders not knowing dipstick should read low on kickstand and they have too much oil in bike and risk hydro locking bike. I change my oil with bike upright and don't have a problem. I've had a friend bring his bike to the harley dealership and dipstick was full when on the kickstand 🤦🏻‍♂️ I had my bike done once at dealership and never again. Get a private motorcycle shop, they stay in business because they are good 🧐

[@shameless6963]

My '02 Dyna reads 1/2 quart low on the stand and full upright

[@chriskeogh2316]

Can you expand on this "hydrolocking, overfilled idea"?

[@staynless7]

I've never heard of checking the engine oil on my twincam with bike vertical so I consulted my 2007 owner's manual again and it says the oil level should be at the full mark on the dipstick, when hot, on the jiffy stand. Has that changed?

[@jjackson471]

My 07 road king classic has it stamped on the dip stick to check oil level while on the kickstand for both hot and cold checks. Not sure when they changed it or if it's always been that way for road kings. My first harley. All my metrics were oil level checks while straight up

[@paulypaulypauly8011]

@@staynless7 nope - you are doing the right thing.

[@fernandocamilli4232]

Excellent learning video !!

[@joaomauriciobasiledesouza6204]

Hi Kevin! I dream about building an engine with you, and have my bike ready for a Zombie Apocalypse but I’m Brazilian and it’s a LONG trip to get my bike to the US to get it done. You are the best.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir...all the best of luck to you

[@LittleMoes_Motivation]

Please tell the story!!!

[@get-some5139]

Great video just like all the rest best H-D channel on KZbin period!

[@KevinBaxter]

Wow, thanks! Appreciate you sir.

[@jacobcurtis6849]

Then why does Honda lock the oil rings in place on the left side pistons on Goldwing engines?

[@karlbishop7481]

I can't answer the question for sure but I would surmise that it is to help prevent oil from seeping by the rings when the bike is on the sidestand. The BMW Flying Bricks had a problem with exhaust smoke on startup due to oil getting by the rings when parked on the sidestand for an extended period of time. Airheads would it too but to a much lesser extent.

[@tommydarby3079]

This is very hard to explain to customers , I always tell them that a two cycle engine is the only one that does not let rings rotate because ring ends will hang in a port , I may save this video for customers viewing if that is ok with you . Thank you sir !

[@andrewvickers4487]

Great catching up with ya Kevin! 14:00 I think it was on Doc Harley's channel that I was surprised to learn that the PDI check alone can rack up around 10 miles! How many miles are too many on a new bike (i.e. before it's already been broken in more than you'd like)?

[@KevinBaxter]

depends on how it was built and how accurate the tune is during those stages. I give more info in my engine break in video done well over a year ago. hard to give you a solid answer. also depends on honing techniques, etc....

[@andrewvickers4487]

@@KevinBaxter Yeah I actually made a number of notes when I watched that video of yours (May last year)! 🤓 Great stuff, very in-depth. But what you say here about "those first few miles" also made me wonder about buying any factory bike new from the dealership - I suppose then that the break in is often going to be "sub-optimal", as compared with buying a quality custom build.

[@dmac620]

Tell the story please. Curious as to what happened.

[@oikkuoek]

Piston rings really have to be stuck on their grooves before they start to oil the combustion chamber, or cause noticeable power loss. The main issue for oil inside the chamber is valve guide seals/worn out valve guides and for the power loss, worn out valves. Also the head gasket can burn into oil passage way and suck oil in during intake stroke. Bad rings cause audible noise and blow by, but never oil burn, unless your crank case is full of oil for some odd reason. In some cases an after market air filter can cause oil consumption, due to the filter being too tight for the engine. The missing air has to come from somewhere, so valve guides and crank case are the next air givers. Also if your trumpet is facing direct to the side or forward, this can cause an air lock on certain speeds.

[@keithbeauchamp8603]

Pain rings turn as engine runs

[@boscodog4358]

Rule i tried very hard to live by, Don't pee on my little candle trying make yours look brighter 😅😅. Hope that i didn't do harm to my new TriGlide Ultra,. I rode it about 6 miles in the Dealership parking lot to learn to steer my Trike 😂😂! Wildcat Harley ( London KY) to awesome dealership

[@SuperOperator4]

So do the rings stay that way in a usually idling engine, or can the gaps seperate once a new owner runs the beans out of it?

[@KevinBaxter]

they often find themselves lined up in ongoing idling engines....which is one reason long idling is not recommended for many types. Also...engines designed to run at constant speeds and low rpm have different types of rings...gapless, different profiles, etc that can still facilitate rotation for even wear.

[@darrell3368]

Kelvin I will get with you soon to talk about a engine build on a 2006 night train carb bike

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir. The back log is getting longer...fair warning. I look forward to speaking.

[@Ky-Alf]

Tell the story

[@schachat01]

Hi Kevin-I would be interested to know why you never request historical information with respect to what work/maintenance/engine modifications/tuning etc has been done on the bike or engine.

[@KevinBaxter]

Simply put...when I tear one down, what was done is obvious to me. And what was done before, be it right or wrong or indifferent to how I would have done it, is only one variable in the total equation. I simply analyze what I see then do what is best to reach my customers goals. I don't care who did it...as long as it was done proper. If it wasn't, I redo it. Simple as that. Great question.

[@mikebarron5805]

Hi Kevin, I was going to ask for the story but your answer here not only answered that question but another one I'd consdered asking. TY.

[@philweed1603]

Thanks for the education!

[@glenmclendon9209]

So if they don't rotate you basically have a stuck ring .

[@harleydavidson2132]

Tell the story! Please!

[@XLXBhorsepower]

We need that 5 minute story on why you don’t want to know who worked on the bike last

[@lancelittle3956]

Please, tell the story.