Piston Skirts Scuffed ? Rings Did Not Seal ? This Is Why !

[@DeltaVTX]

I dropped my micrometer once. It’s amazing how many feelings you get as you watch it tumble towards it’s inevitable meeting with the shop floor.

[@mericawhips5697]

Just as bad as an iPhone with no case 😂

[@robm.4512]

@Merica Whips 😢I’m with you there. It’s almost worse with a nice micrometer though, you kinda buy one for life, not 5 years max, that REALLY sucks nuts! 😎👍🍻

[@farkdangler]

As long as it hits your foot first it's ok

[@clnfreakone8486]

I dropped calipers and they stuck in my leg once lol 😂

[@akabruno1]

As an old machinist, I absolutely stick my foot under almost anything I drop. Hopefully, it's not really heavy!

[@2strokepipes471]

Perfect timing on these videos. Right when I get home from work and plop on the couch for an hour before garage time.

[@allencoxx5739]

Same here

[@taylormkct]

Steve I never thought I would sit and watch 34 min explaining how your new honing machine works, but you make it very entertaining and enjoyable to view, even the misses sat and watch it.

[@--_DJ_--]

I said the same thing when we saw it at the trade show.

[@bradyhood4786]

I didn't realize it was a 35min video until seeing your comment

[@mill383]

Amazing to see how far the technology has come. 40 years ago, my dad made his own honing tank from an electric motor driven power steering pump, hydraulic motor, and a Sunnen hone (the important part). Manually stroked. It was crude, by today's standards, but it is still in operation today. Operator skill required to get good results. Keep the great videos coming!

[@GNX157]

Steve, you should get together with Lake Speed Jr from Total Seal Rings, and do a segment with this machine and talk cylinder bore finish. He really knows his stuff.

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

Accuracy and repeatability are key for consistency. Dependable results make diagnosing problems and failure analysis of parts easier too. Very cool addition to the shop.

[@putemintheboat6784]

Am the only one who watches this channel with no race car, no mods on my daily vehicle, and absolutely zero mechanical knowledge/ability? I highly doubt I'll ever use any of the stuff I learn on this channel. But I watch every video.

[@stevemorrisracing]

Thanks

[@dannystephenson4855]

You'll be knowledgeable on these subjects if ever in conversation with Car Guys or Race car drivers/builders. Atleast you'll sound like you know what's up!?!😅

[@michaelmcclure8673]

Mr Steve, I studied surface finishing in my college classes. We learned how it affects cylinder pressure and more 😊

[@jayceecombs6887]

Steve: this is like a "New Era" in the machining/honing process to me! I look back @ what I thought/believed was "state of the art," yet now appears to be nearly "Cave Man Rudimentary?" You sir are always THERE... Present... when these Eras shift/change! Y'all are just Amazing Sir! Just Mind Blowing! Thank You! J

[@causeimbatmaaan]

Hones like this have been around for at least 15 years.

[@johnrodriguez473]

Steve, I'm a industrial electrician who works in a copper mining operation. Have that E-stop button replaced with a cutler-hammer (Eaton) E-stop. That is one of those cheap European autopupu's style that are crap and will break on you when you twist them to pull it back out. Tell rotler to never use those use those pieces of garbage in there equipment

[@BB..........]

I watched a vid a few weeks ago with Lake Speed Jr where they took one of his dad's blocks over to pro stock racer Greg Anderson and honed it with one of these machines. It's fascinating how this machine works, and how much better it is over the old way of doing honing.

[@jdcustomz]

Steve giving away the Gems. 90% of most Machine shops do the same old stepped honing to this day. Not many actually give you proper Cyl Wall finish. My company strives for this for our builds and clients as well. Always enjoy your videos.

[@stevemorrisracing]

Thanks

[@logannewman4532]

As a programmer, if I'm doing a some job that nobody else is going to touch (especially if it's a 4+ axis job) I like to do a low clearance entry, prove it out and then crank the rapid and start it in front of a member of management. I like to see if they flinch.

[@MrGGPRI]

What is the fluid used in the operation ? Back in the day when I did homing using a drill motor, I used a water/dish soap mix and always worked fine for me; this prevented stone clogging problems encountered when using a light lube fluid.

[@davidwelsh829]

Steve, I have 45 years of experience using diamond tools mostly associated with my tile business. One thing about diamond blades is the matrix that carries the diamond, it must be the proper hardness so it wears exposing new diamonds at the correct rate for the material being cut. Tile & stone has many different types of material from granite to porcelain to regular glazed fired clay tile and it is fustrating to have a nearly new $80 blade quit cutting or start walking offline because it shed the current level of abrasive and is not wearing to expose new diamond . In your case hopefully the steel is nearly the same hardness and you wont have blade issue, softer stones for hard material seem to work best and cut faster.

[@spridgetmidget9238]

Hi Steve, cute fact for you, the automotive industry for years always had to match pistons to bore size because of the inconsistency in honing but the tech like is this machine let the mass manufacturers use a standard piston size which was a huge cost saving, that's why you dont see piston stamping anymore on a production engine 😁. Love that you are taking the time not only to explain metrology to the folks (kinda lost art 😉) but the way modern tech can do it so much better and faster. You done good with this m/c buddy 👍

[@raindeergames6104]

wow that is a serious piece of kit😮. I could really use a shop with one of these right now. Im building a 1300Hp VW mk4 R32 motor and Im having a really hard time finding a shop in the UAE that can bore and hone the block the way i want it done. This is a fantastic investment to Your shop.

[@pauljanssen7594]

As Machinist used to run the old red CK10 honing machine it was a fun machine to operate used to do a block in 20 to 30 minutes let it cool down and recheck.

[@timmygiles9554]

Steve your one of the best and one of our brothers is in need. He has shared all of his luck with his family and friends. Love what you done for Cleetus!! Billy the kid at SRC has all his motor’s down and bob is covered up. I just thought it would be awesome if maybe had your help. Billy is worth helping and he would really help you shine. Your combos and Tom Nelson and Texas speed there is no others.

[@Boni_Bmx]

Need A Steve Morris Billy Bad Boy Shirt❤🧡With The Wagon🧡since he is abusing that term now.🤣

[@canusakommando9692]

Billy does need something like Cleetus. They will get it. SRC is the first family of small tire drag racing 🏁 🏁.

[@freedomfox8183]

No he doesn't need what Cleetus has that's way too much for what he's doing.. just like cleatus is tuner said at the streetcar takeover event it's really hard to make that engine make low enough power not to spin on a no prep and billy did it damn near immediately with his TT BBC 540 so it'll be fine... he does have pretty much what Cleetus had before the billet engine ... Bob just has to fix all of box performances mistakes and it'll be good .. plus I think he needs to go dry-sump that's where a lot of his problems are as well he's starving the motor on the shutdown because he can't get any pan to work good enough.

[@scottgarmon4865]

Great video Steve. learning about the latest and greatest and just trying to keep up in this ever changing Industry is a challenge. Its amazing how far engine machining has come in the last ten years.

[@chrismadaj8751]

What's really cool is little failures you learn from it and stays in your head for later when it counts how do the Sensors pick up the difference on the hone for the taper It's amazing machine. GODSPEED

[@frankensteincreations4740]

Absolutely unreal! That machine is very impressive. Funny that you mentioned the skirt scuffing… I had a block done, always smelled oil burning, but had tremendous cylinder pressure. I tore it down to ring and bearing it, and add end gap for boost. I noticed a few pistons were scuffing… Those cylinder’s combustion chambers were oily do to scuffs in the bore… Oil rings couldn’t scrape properly with gouges in the bore… This machine is worth its weight in gold… Gonna be interesting to see if engines pick up Hp from a better bore/hone job… Awesome, just awesome! 👍🤘👏

[@GNX157]

It will. Lake Speed Jr (Total Seal Rings) has seen improvements of 8-10hp on engines with the right ring and hone package (Stapleton42 channel)

[@strykerentllc]

Awesome machine and seeing the 20 Ra value is quite nice. chambers in our barrels require a 32Rms and they're mirror-like. The juice was definitely worth the squeeze with purchasing that machine. Of course the best part in the video was Dewey! LOL Got the mercy today as well. Cheers!

[@rockercover]

The honing sound is unique. Machine looks like it is the ultimate in precision work.

[@scottconrad2719]

I want this service on my LS7 block, can't wait till your not so swamped to get down there and make more HP just from a perfect finish...😮

[@jimkillen1065]

APPRECIATE the video. I seen the piston skirts built up with the coating , that may help with piston scuffing

[@covertsolid1]

It is wild to think that a perfectly smooth bore is actually bad, but after explaining that you need the valleys to hold the oil and facilitate oiling it totally makes sense. On the surface it is/was counterintuitive. Having am "average" bore diameter with valley to hold oil that the rings won't scrap off, I mean now that I really think about it that is the point of the cross hatch is to draw the oil up and down with the stroke of the piston. Long story short, MIND BLOWN

[@statementleaver8095]

Rifling on a Gun barrel = Gas instead of Oil Friction is the Enemy

[@covertsolid1]

@@statementleaver8095 yeah, that is not the same thing at all. The purpose and function do not corelate between the two.

[@statementleaver8095]

@@covertsolid1 Both work off *Bores* Both controlled by *Force of Explosion* Both require *Honing* 3 similarities that you appear to be Ignoring I can go for a fourth reason 🙊🙊

[@statementleaver8095]

@@covertsolid1 Nothing wrong with a Smooth bore......It's just the Material used for Rings and Sleeves aren't up to the job EDIT Oil feed requirements for Lubrication would need to be like a Crankshaft with Oil channels involved on the Contact edges of the Piston🤔🤔

[@erickbernard8208]

I'd love to learn this, I did cnc glass cutting but only X-Y axis

[@jowens24]

Great video Steve!!! I watched ever minute of the video, If I ever move to Michigan I think I could hit you up for a machine operator job.

[@markcasto9526]

What I find that is amazing is there are mini mini mini engine builders out there that do wonderful work that would never be able to figure out these technical machines. It amazes me how fast Steve can understand the control panel.

[@paulcopeland9035]

*many

[@380.motorsports]

I’m amazed not only at the speed and quality of the finish from this machine but its capability to accurately sense and measure such very fine increments and details of movement and sizing. Pretty cool technology.

[@98integraGSR]

Just got my hoodie, shirt, stickers, and other goodies in. Wasn't lucky enough to get one of those grenaded engine pieces, but still- thats some IMPRESSIVE shipping time!

[@flyfaen1]

Finally, this info is being spread to the wider audience enmasse, now also by you guys, and Rottler and Total Seal. I've tried to tell this key importance of corse valleys and plateuing of the peaks in bores to gearheads locally, but being only one dude vs. a bunch of repeaters (monkey-see-monkey-doo'ers) they don't believe you. It might also be an idea to state that for especially emissions-meeting street/road vehicles (which realisticly operate most of the time off-boost and at low manifold/NA regime), people might want to considering using a lower viscosity oil, as I've found the surperior oil retention properties being so surperior that the rings start to float (too much) on the oil film, that oil consumption becomes an issue as oil is drawn past the rings during low manifold press and engine breaking scenarios on engines NOT using DBW and VVT in particular ( VVT+DBW engines can counter it by for one running higher manifold press and retarded camshafts thus using atkinson cycle in a win-win for thermal efficiency and less pumping losses at low and part load scenarios, and second do engine breaking with fuel-cut and WOT at the same time, limiting the vacuum). A similar issue also affects some other modern OEM engines that use plasma-spray sintered iron bores (they typically use 0W20 oil stock) and people have gotten oil consumption issues by using a thicker oil. For the guys in the US (except CA), I guess it doesn't matter much. Edit: I felt it through the screen when you dropped the mic'...

[@scottconrad2719]

Thanks!

[@stevemorrisracing]

You bet!

[@edsmachine93]

Very nice Technology Steve. Thanks for sharing. 👍 Take care, Ed.

[@stevemarr9295]

Thanks Steve - really good explanation and fascinating to see the modern machine doing it's stuff.

[@stevemorrisracing]

Thanks

[@quixototalis]

I could stand there and watch this machine work all day. One of the hazards of having a piece of tech that is this cool.

[@helicopterdriver]

Plateau finishing is much like roller burnishing apparently. Roller burnishing for perfect tolerance fits, is very repeatable. +/- .0001 is easy to keep. Critical for press fit bearing fits.

[@bcbloc02]

For years I have been honing to size with 80grit stones then dust the top off with a 400grit. That is as close to plateu honing as I can get with my tools. Rings seem to seat fine and no wear issues I am aware of. Would love to have a machine like this. Maybe in 20 years I can invest in one when the next latest and greatest one replaces these. :-) Heck a good cylinder king would be an upgrade for me! LOl

[@meandmissy1970]

Steve, if I’m not mistaken, you should be able to touch the vertical line between the Bore Location and Operation column and drag it to the left to uncover the numbers. Thanks for showing us your new Bore Hone machine. Very impressive.👍👍👍👋

[@br549rdr]

This is so interesting. I program lathes n mills but no experience with a hone. Thank you so much. Love seeing your shop grow.

[@pauljanssen7594]

PS I work for Great boss that taught me everything about machining his name was ken flanigan again he was a great guy to work for. Belmont California one thing about that area they had good sandwich shops.

[@truckladders4104]

Great video Steve, We have a CK10 in good shape but older. Wed mostly industrial .small diesel and stock rebuilds. I guess the point is at what point is the advanced tech of the Rottler worthwhile? I love the CNC aspect freeing up a machinist while it works. I also love the bore finish but Im not sure our customer base requires this level of precision

[@thereadinesschannel7610]

I rode a CK 10 and later the CV 616 for many years and fully believe there is no lose of precision with those machines in the right hands …and a hell of a lot less time invested to get the job done. Too bad they stopped making them. I’m not raining on this guys parade …it’s a fantastic piece of technology, but I can’t see why making something so straightforward into a very complicated process is any advantage but If he’s getting paid for that kind of time and investment that’s great.

[@supertunesupertune]

I did that too with ours...started not in the hole. MAKE SURE HOLE TO HOLE is always on also after the first one.

[@SosopChabot]

I do small engine builds and ever since I’ve been using (local shop) that machine (diamond stones) my piston life is longer AND the motors make way more torque. From 85cc 2 strokes to 1000cc turbo 4 strokes, all my customers are impressed with how quick they get to top rpm with that honing. It’s just better, period…

[@frlfda]

Thanks for showing us all this. I love learning, whether I'll ever use the knowledge or not, I get such a kick out of seeing how issues we have accepted or dealt with for years are being addressed.

[@TheCuttz1984]

I learnt alot from this video. I knew bore surface was important. But this is next level. Thank you for sharing. Much love from Australia.

[@dannystephenson4855]

I love your educational content! My favorite part of your channel Keep up the awesome work Steve!

[@patrickjohnson7801]

It would seam like that little bit of oil that it holds would also keep the compression up too ? Harder to blow by.

[@brolohalflemming7042]

I am learning! Before watching this video, I'd watched Freddy working on his flooded P1. He put a borescope in the engine and said it was good because he could still see the cross-hatch, and I was thinking "Why? Shouldn't it be smooth?". The stuff growing inside the cylinders was probably less good. Then in this video, when Steve talked about setting the cross-hatch angles, I was thinking "Ok, maybe it shouldn't be smooth, maybe it's for lubrication?". Then pleased to discover I'd got it right in the end. Also I'm guessing this is why good engines cost a lot more than stock Frod or GM engines because of the far greater attention to detail in the precision and fit & finish.

[@deankdx]

I watched this episode 3 times and still probably picked up less than 70% of what is going on. so much information in such a short video just on honing. i've never seen honing being explained in such detail or importance before. i'll be watching this one again trying to take it all in.

[@garretthoffman8475]

Thank You Steve great video, So glad you are up and running on the new hone. I want you to prep my gen3 hemi block.

[@williamlewis7846]

If you want to get the feel try it with a 1/2" Milwaukee drill and a hand hone LOL. That was the last one I did.

[@tlambertco]

When switching stones does it measure the wear of the stone to consider in OD.

[@fallendark6952]

Love watching this hone machine work. I work for Timken and make bearings on a daily basis seeing this high tech machinery do such a quick and accurate job is just mind blowing. While im over here running equipment thats about 70 years old lol very very intresting video keep up the awesome work Steve!

[@JohnRoberts71]

Great content thanks for sharing. Good luck with your new equipment

[@stephcooper5998]

Steve, Does the lubricant recycle back through the process? How is the removed material cycle out?

[@stevemorrisracing]

Filters and magnets

[@MillionairX]

having the same intro music as PFISpeed makes watching all these videos so much fun, PFI and DrTuneEmAll got the best video tunes.

[@negativeindustrial]

Fucks me up every time. I keep thinking I clicked the wrong video.

[@mdebert_designs]

I love it... using a tape measure to verify the cylinder length to the fourth decimal ;-)... lol

[@SCARFACE69247]

13:00 I've met a few women over the years that could use a contraption like that. 😅😂

[@Rusty.1776]

I believe you need to adjust your Zoom on the screen to display the full number.

[@jeffjankiewicz5100]

That new machine should be very consistent, MAJOR investment in the machine shop with repeatable results. Very cool, call me a geek but I found it very interesting. Even at 65, I still have the curiosity of a kid, but a hot rodder at heart.

[@peltotablet1476]

Only part I got was plateau pressure, now I use it on a ventilator so a lil different

[@randr10]

The way the machine automatically takes out taper makes me feel better about my hand honing technique. I attached a sunnen style hone to my drill to do it. I have no way of measuring the cross hatch so I just adjusted my speed until it looked right. During sizing I took out the hone and checked with the dial bore gauge at 3 points on two axes to make sure everything was straight and round. I don't know why but when I rough bored the initial .010 undersize with the boring head on my mill, it developed a taper. It's weird because I fed with the table. It would make sense if I quill fed it because you're get more flex as you extend the quill further from the mill head. Who knows. Maybe just worn out ways on the knee. I'm getting a proper boring bar to mount on the back side of the ram because it was very far from ideal doing it with a boring head. Regardless, I took the taper out exactly the same way. I just spent more time in the bottom of the bore until it was straight, got it I think to .002 under (IIRC) then finish honed. It was within a half a thou top to bottom on all 3 cylinders on my Kubota engine build, which is overkill for the RPM that thing sees, but it definitely won't hurt being that straight. Sort of a test run for the next time I build a race motor, which will definitely be occurring at some point. The little 3 cylinder tractor engine runs great now by the way. Just changed out the break in oil at 37 hours. All those little techniques I picked up putting together high RPM V8's really paid off.

[@randr10]

I wasn't surprised that the final plateau hone took off a tenth. That's not a lot of material at all. It may have taken off more than that even because the dial bore gauge will find the low spots in a surface finish and this thing is just supposed to be hitting the tops. That may be why they say it "doesn't take any material off." Measure with something less precise or maybe a finer stylus and it wouldn't show up.

[@ohyeahbabyohyes]

This begins to open up the possibility for custom honing to accentuate lubrication in the lower section of the cylinder that never touches the rings, but has extreme pressure on the skirts.

[@metrickarma]

Great video, I can watch Steve talk about anything

[@michaelmyers9094]

Looks like a Mitutoyo unit. Excellent video Steve!

[@johanalin2294]

I exactly understand. We use a CK10 at work and the final resault is important so i understand the timeissue

[@MK-ng5fp]

why not have locators on the datum plate to zero the machine to upper datum plate so you dont need to do anyother setup and jog head to each cylinder bore ?

[@rhnstjegilrhkscvn1djhrj969]

,.......of course someone (not me) had to ask how do you know the cylinder is round. does machine "see" that measurement?

[@brianlove8413]

Nice machine, lots of honing jobs to pay for itself. The engine manufacturers seem to have honing down pat, as normally they don't have oil consumption, ring bedding or piston skirt scuffing problems, and they have used stones in the production hones for "eons"!

[@briananderson5284]

Very cool😊 once again thanks for sharing your technology and your knowledge these videos are awesome to watch and learn from. Love to see the fine details to making lots of horse power 😊😊😊

[@EquitySolutionRayRaz]

Sure beats the old 1/2 drill , that’s all I ever got to use to hone with and I remember it took forever with my Pops honing out cylinders for rebuild . He would be yelling over the drill spray , I was just the coolant dispenser usually 😂

[@paulsalvestrin7253]

The technology today is just getting better. Yep the feel you speak of is something that takes year's to learn. I loved chasing the numbers i required but hated the time it took to get them. I would love $50 for every bore i haved honed over the last 30 year's.

[@tiredofit1235]

Cool to see the engineering behind a cylinder wall finish.

[@randalljames1]

So... now that it takes half the time and effort to bore a block... I am sure it should cost half as much right? :) my heart stopped when the stone went rapid to bottom.. I felt my mill creak... I started using the plateau finish with an FE with 1mm rings.. Hard to believe how primitive engines were 40 years ago when I started in this biz... That finish by it's nature is has to remove something.. (or it would just roll over the peaks) Amazing to watch the tech available now..

[@davejames2015]

I use a drill and a 400 grit stone lol, I'm a once a year machinest. My last motor I rebuilt didn't even come out of the car😂

[@jesseschwabe6140]

On your old machine did you step different grits, like a specific grit for rough-in, and a specific finish for the last .002 - .003 an inch. When you were mentioning that you believe you went too smooth and reduced the valleys. At what grit of stone do you believe is too smooth?

[@Trucker-Belly]

Steve I hope you can help me with my problem. I need to save $$ on my car insurance and the AC in my house stopped working!

[@cjespers]

Thanks for the video. I saw Dewey! You guys rock, well done.

[@swhting03]

Recently discovered your channel - great stuff! Although I am aware of new tech, its great to see and hear in practice! Same theories, but lots more gadgets and data than there was in the 80's when I did machining and engine building. Can I get a retirement job with you? 😉

[@slammedblazer6635]

Why on the second side the first bore was not set to zero, it was in the negative? Thanks

[@williamsmith8808]

Hey Steve love your videos . I'm rebuilding my motor and I wanted to know what is the best tool to clean up the cylinder holes I don't want bigger pistons just want to clean them up. plus do I have to have a roller cam to be able to have roller lifters and rockers any help would be awesome

[@anthonyiannone7618]

curious to know if there is any visual difference in the two honed surfaces ??

[@genelong1748]

Cool. As an older gentleman that built a lot of engine's Just B.S. cool 👍👌. Maybe no big h.p. gains, but I see durability advantage. Less money to go faster longer. Howdy from the Texas Motorplex.

[@michaelatkin9649]

Is that radiator fluid thats being used as a cooling and lubricant?

[@patrickwendling6759]

Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸

[@Peewee0413]

I get the negative side of having different levels of customers, but if you made NA SB's you may open the door to more cash. That's if you have the machines and labor to expand. 1 model, few cam options. Turnkey engines for street strip.

[@petercunningham3469]

Great presentation Steve seeing stuff thats new is great ! 👍

[@Profabdesigns]

On the Rottler, do the honing stones auto expand and contract upon G0G90 Z0 G28 Z0? I know on the Sunnen machine the older one do not. The newer ones do, but G54 X0Y0 has to be set first.

[@kevinwest3689]

I was Surprised by the 45° degree angle. I thought 30° was the ticket.

[@Hjfvvdst]

That thing is awesome. Does having the proper oil retention help with ring seal? Contamination of the oil with blow by.

[@jamesbarton3165]

Nissan's has a carbon fiber block what do u think

[@puppygadget3189]

What a game changer this hone is. Sure would be awesome to see the difference between your older hone than your new one in speed and accuracy. Hi ❤Dewey❤ you handsome boy.

[@lsu614]

I would like to know how you get all those measurements and numbers! This thing is so cool and fancy

[@ChrisMcCutcheon-wj2pp]

My feeling were hurt when my work partner started mill with indicol and indicator on spindle

[@PhiddyPford]

Did Cleeter supply Mountain Dew as your cutting fluids? Asking for a friend 👍🤣

[@stevemorrisracing]

😂

[@ucnhtmenow1]

I used to run CNC machines manufacturing gun parts and it was like waking in egg shells everyday because 1 tiny mistake isn't so tiny when it comes to these machines. Doosan (CNC manufacture) have no service techs in Las Vegas, at least in 2020 they didn't, so a simple spindle service was like 3500 and a replacement xould cost up to $10k.. Any noise was not good. I reman locomotive engines and components and there's always loud noises and I'm always jumping thinking something happened.

[@TheByrnes1]

I really hope the new Billy Bad Boy helps you to achieve your goals. Are you ever thinking of/wanting to bring all the machining for the engines in-house?

[@stevemorrisracing]

Yes I am almost there now

[@TheByrnes1]

@@stevemorrisracing I sent you my resume. Check it out if you have time. Thanks in advance. Have a great weekend Steve and the rest of the team at SME!! Dewey Power!!

[@dakotareid1566]

Would’ve been cool to see a pic of before honing, after honing, before plateau and after plateau honing