KeyForge Starter Set Review - with Tom Vasel

[@Monarchyman1]

My understanding is that if you have 6 Æmber at the beginning of your turn you MUST forge a key.

[@JDKT002]

I've been absolutely enamored with this game since I got my decks. Every time I finish a game I want to play again right away.

[@goyasolidar]

Tom's evolution into a carnival barker is finally complete.

[@ryangerlach5956]

Goya Solidar needs a cane

[@drillerdev4624]

@@ryangerlach5956 And a pair of gloves

[@stylicho]

More like a pimp

[@winstondwayne7607]

i guess it's pretty randomly asking but does anyone know a good website to stream newly released series online?

[@crosbycorey7166]

@Winston Dwayne Flixportal =)

[@Bodyknock]

Seems like a good choice for people who are really into sealed deck and random deck games and not into constructing decks. Buy a deck and play it through a short tournament, done! No need to fiddle with deck building. It's too bad the QR code scanning app isn't available yet, I was curious to see how the handicapping system was going to work in conjunction with scanning the decks.

[@omegonchris]

In fairness, the game hasn't undergone it's official release yet, that comes on Thursday the 15th of November. They've said the app will go live then.

[@josephselle7456]

Wow, those are some names right there.

[@JaredPryor87]

I played the game last weekend at a pre-release event. I went in thinking I would just play one round and leave, but ended up playing two (which doesn't sound like a lot) but we did one with the starter deck and one with the random decks, and they played entirely different. In one I was trying to build defenses and capture aember, in the other I was stealing Aember and making small hit and runs. I loved it and am sold on the concept!

[@koshi6505]

So the most enjoyable format in the game is the Adaptive format. You and your opponent both bring a deck. You play one game and then switch the decks. If a player wins both games, they win the match, otherwise both players bid chains for the better deck.

[@ktotheramer]

Went to a Pre-Launch event this weekend and had a blast, and it was great to see a huge turnout! I COULD only buy two decks...but I’m hooked!!!! Hope this game has continued success and longevity!

[@shanelaporte]

I pity the poor fool who had to sort through all those cards after the component drop!

[@RynoKenny]

Shane Laporte pretty easy with the unique backs. Probably easier than most component dumps they do

[@ryangerlach5956]

Just flip them over.

[@Keithustus]

Ryan Gerlach No need. The deck names are on both sides (to stop opaque-sleeve deck building aka "cheating").

[@CD-zd6zr]

They didn't put the full rules in it for a reason. By only having the full rules online, they can be changed if need be.

[@stephanberger3476]

How are there 35 combinations? Isn't it 7x6x5= 210 combinations?

[@theshogunstein6475]

We were at a pre-release event today and enjoyed this game very much

[@DanielDCotta]

Played it and truly enjoyed it. Thanks for your review!

[@natehocking8884]

This is a scenario I can see happening: the hardcore players will get (or proxy) all of the possible cards. They will then deck build to find what combos of cards are best. These hypothetical optimal decks will become "grail decks" that collectors will search for by continuing to buy decks.

[@nicksbordone5271]

From the way they explained it, the algorithm only allows a certain amount of the really good cards and certain combinations are not allowed. So these hypothetical perfect decks don't actually exist.

[@natehocking8884]

@@nicksbordone5271 huh, I hadn't heard that. The hardcore fans will probably still make "ideal decks" with those restrictions in mind but it does limit the daydreaming of buying a "perfect" deck.

[@nicksbordone5271]

@@natehocking8884 Competitive players will definitely be hunting for the really good decks, they just can't get a perfect one. Certain houses and house combinations with specific cards will become meta. Also I think they will look for decks with many duplicates, because this allows for consistant card draws.

[@omegonchris]

@@natehocking8884 The hardcore fans would need to know the details of those restrictions to do that, which I doubt FFG will ever divulge. I think hardcore fans will just have to buy a lot of decks, for a benefit which is unlikely to be much more than marginal, which FFG can handicap in tournaments if that deck does turn out to be above the power curve. I like that a casual player can walk in and buy a single deck for about £/$10 that may turn out to be the best deck in the local area. I think Keyforge is a game that can be a great casual game without the prospect of it being 'ruined' (in my opinion) by net-decking and hardcore fans.

[@jake53105]

Also, it sounds like even if you find a "grail deck," you can play it and dominate with it in only a tournament or two until chains are placed on it to even it out.

[@Phil_K3n_Sebben]

Is that a reference pear?

[@SinOfAugust]

Phillip James - Reference pear sees all, reference pear is everywhere.

[@DrMcFly28]

That's a mutilated reference pear. Matt and Quinns, your move.

[@Runny117]

Tom is the only man I trust. love your reviews!

[@Lord_Aba]

It is a really fun game, had some demos of it. The starter set seems really fair for the price point as well... 2 random decks (usually ~10 each), 2 standard decks, and all the tokens? Not a bad intro for 40 bucks (if I remember it correctly). From talking with the guys the QR code is going to be important for tournament play; the organizer will scan your deck and enter your record... do better with the deck and you will get more chains added. Can you keep winning with that deck while having a handicap? Do you try learning a new deck to balance things out? Should be interesting to see support on that end.

[@XShrike0]

I was in a pre-release tournament for this. My deck destroyed everyone I played against. The best one of my opponents got was to forge one key. My deck was really good at generating Aember. I could even use it to give my opponent Aember, just to steal it. I don't know if my deck was powerful, their decks were weak, or skill level.

[@luthorkellar]

card to list your deck and its contents?

[@XShrike0]

@@luthorkellar Is there an easy way to do it without me typing everything out?

[@Ghoulicus]

Maybe it was skill level, but you learned your deck faster than the others. Your deck also could have been easier to play as well.

[@timsmith31]

I opened the perfect deck for Zee called Ze who Dislikes Plots.

[@stormquiver]

each deck around $10 each. 4 decks in the box. then all the extra components. I'd say its a great value. Anxious to get my copy soon. FFG having the rules only on their site, rather in the box is due to them wanting to easily update the rule book. they've been doing that to all the rules reference for their LCG's.

[@sortehuse]

I think the reason they didn't put the full rules in the box, is that they want to be able to update the rules online becasuse they knew that there would be some rules that need to be clarified once people started to play the game with a quadrillion of different interaction.

[@3v1lp1ngv1n]

I feel like you explained the existence of cards more than the actual rules but whatever :D

[@TheNickarnett]

Now I haven't actually read any of it, but FFG does have a "lore" section in the KeyForge page that probably explains a lot of the themes in the decks and houses and whatnot

[@pocenha]

the seens awesome. Never played any card game, I think I will try.

[@RecklessFables]

I'm looking forward to Sealed play. I feel like the power variance will be lower than in Booster sealed in other games and now I don';t have to build a deck for 45 minutes when I can just play. Also will be great being able to go through several rounds before midnight!

[@WalterCrumbcake]

Although not official, I could still see constructed and draft being viable. I mean it's not like we haven't been using opaque sleeves forever right, guys? How about a variant where you sideboard an entire faction from the deck?

[@TylerAndToast]

From someone who dislikes magic (but respects the game), keyforge was pretty good.

[@Wolforce]

I would sleeve the cards and play with whatever i want XD I love MTG

[@rockylosco5596]

My first game took close to an hour man and I had to leave so we still were not done!

[@DrMcFly28]

With a limited card pool, and an algorithm that creates decks which need to be at least somewhat balanced and consistent, I just don't see how this model does not get to repeat patterns after a certain point creating easily discernible deck archetypes . I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated players soon spade out what the actual winning combos are and then start digging for decks containing those very combos, so we again get the M:tG scenario, only on a higher level of granularity.

[@mathiasolsson7616]

This game is not as extreme as Epic, great review!

[@sethchapman1425]

This is a great filler in between, my friend and I played last night it was enjoyable.

[@MrRuff-cc3lg]

Why can’t you sleeve your deck so you can make your own?

[@Madbonna1]

What I guess I don't get is if each deck is suppose to be unique, why does the starter kit come with two decks everyone will get? Wouldn't 4 unique decks make more sense? What would be the point of getting this over buying 4 decks other than to get chits as counters

[@crushycrawfishy1765]

He answers this in the video. With those two decks you already know what you're getting so they're great for teaching new players and introducing them to the game.

[@Madbonna1]

That's true. But I just think if it's gimmick is it's uniqueness it was a missed opportunity a bit.

[@bricelory9534]

@@Madbonna1 they are specifically crafted decks to be a bit more straightforward. I think they even had a bit more reminder text on them when I played with them at the pre-launch event on Saturday. I will say they definitely felt like Keyforge decks, so it wasn't jarring at all going from them to the unique games. With uniaue decks, you can't be sure what complex cards you will see, so theae act as a great fiest step. I was really surprised because they felt powerful and interesting but definitely had simpler cards than all of the unique decks I played and played against. Then the starter also comes with two unique decks, so you can get right into the uniqueness. It does feel like the starter decks can match up pretty well anyway, so I really don't think the learner will feel gypped at all having the same starter decks as everyone else.

[@mynamesaretakenwtf]

@@Madbonna1 most cards games with random elements have a starter set up to control some of the scenerios you will run into. So long as the starter decks are guaranteed to only be in the starter set, I don't see a problem.

[@omegonchris]

The two non-random decks in the starter box are great teaching decks, with extra text explaining the creature keywords, no rare cards or cards with overly situational effects. It'll also be easy for people to make teaching videos using those decks, knowing that everyone can have the same starting point.

[@codydavis3100]

Kind of says something when they don't include the full rulebook in the box.

[@thealliedhacker]

To be fair, MTG hasn't included the comprehensive rules pretty much ever... though it is a few hundred pages >_>

[@sertaki]

seems like an oversight that will hopefully be fixed in fture editions. But definitely a bummer.

[@CD-zd6zr]

They didn't put the full rules in it for a reason. By only having the full rules online, they can be changed if need be.

[@forisrex]

its pretty standard fair for ffg's card games lately. even legend of the 5 rings didnt have a complete rulebook when it came out by them as an lcg

[@silversunseven]

Might seem like a bummer but it is a huge undertaking for game which is not your standard simple game. Keeping the Open possibility to adjust the rules is actually something I appreciate. If no rule book was included for star realms, then it would be a bummer.

[@NikolasOkinarius]

Lootboxes and no rule books inside. They are learning from video games industry.

[@ramonosuke]

Sad that no one else sees this. One just merely has to view a few videogame articles to see the growing problem in the video game industry, now trying to invade Boardgaming. thanks FFG!

[@Ghoulicus]

Except MTG has been doing that for years - the random draws and excitement from pulling something good have been done in board games all before.

[@davidclifton7393]

Richard garfield creator of magic the gathering. Yep ill play the godfather of ccgs new game.

[@lystic9392]

Love your outfit. (And the review, too.)

[@jfnovotny]

How about a Dice Tower for a hat?

[@Possi_ball]

Sounds like constantly playing in an MtG sealed deck tournament. Dunno if this is good or not, the thing that draws people in card games is the deck building and this one has none.

[@Crs9072]

From all the reviews and videos I've seen I've yet to figure out why am I suppose to attack my opponent? I mean I get amber if I just reap with all my units. If I attack, I don't reap, so attacking has to be really powerful. There is no card advantage, since you always draw back to six, so what's the incentive to attack, and not play solitaire just deploying creatures and reap until I get the amber I need?

[@Letsroll0010]

I’m just thinking out loud but if. Your just going to reap I will attack your creatures and kill them off. You can’t reap when you first bring them in because they are not ready

[@jartree]

Firstly, some creatures have a Fight ability, meaning if they attack (and survive it), the ability triggers. You generally want to fight with those more often than not. Secondly, enemy creatures will often capture your aember, and you must kill them to get it back. Thirdly, your opponent may have creatures with really nice abilities that will trigger at least once per turn if not more, that you want to eliminate as soon as you can.

[@Crs9072]

But you can't attack when they are played either, and when you attack both creatures are going to damage each other, so you potentially lose units as well. Also if you attack you are not generating amber, so unless your attack somehow generates that, you are behind. There must be something I'm not understanding here, because the game just feels like solitaire reaping otherwise.

[@RetroMaticGamer]

@@Crs9072 If I play Restringuntus and you don't kill him ASAP, you WILL lose. Same goes for Shaffles, or Hunting Witch, or a LOT of other very powerful creatures that have game-changing effects. There are many creatures you will want to kill ASAP, by any means necessary, and there are also a lot of creatures with Armor and/or Skirmish (abilities that can prevent them from taking damage when they fight) that make that decision a lot less problematic.

[@BlueSapphyre]

Here's an example of when you should attack. Say your opponent has 2 creatures, and you have 1 creature. If nothing changes and you're both just reaping, they're going to beat you twice as quickly (3 turns of reaping to craft a key vs 6 turns of reaping to craft a key), so you should use your 1 creature to slow them down. Even if it means even trading, you've turned their clock down from 3 turns to 6 turns. Generally, if you're ahead on board state, it's better to be reaping to close the game faster, and if you're behind, you should be attacking to slow down their clock until you can build a better board state. And this is just generally, there's definitely times when you want to be attacking when you're ahead (like if you're not going to be trading evenly).

[@NerdimusPrimeX]

Game endings are generally of the I can not do anything variety. Some deck pairings take well over an hour to complete a game.

[@jfnovotny]

I've been away from Dice Tower for a while. Wow! Getting flamboyant.

[@stormy7722]

We need to see a DT KeyForge Tournament

[@brandonguthrie8122]

So my whole thing is how do you know people won’t cheat and make their own decks out of cards they have?

[@robertk2672]

Because the unique name of the deck is printed on every card in that deck, along with the unique picture on each card.

[@silents4rk90]

I think Keyforge is an interesting idea. But depending upon the deck, it feels procedurally generated and that's not a good thing. There was at least one deck I played across from that allowed a player to continuously attack me throughout the turn until I had nothing on the field and essentially handed my friend an easy victory. Needless to say, it just wasn't fun to play across from.

[@KabukiKid]

Is saying archetype as ARK-TYPE correct? I seem to be hearing that more and more in recent years. I always knew it as having three syllables... ARK-EH-TYPE.

[@retractedhack]

It really irks me that at @1:49 you say that "everyone gets these exact same two decks" and then not a few seconds later "every single deck is unique and different from every other one." I can't believe the game allowed this inconsistency through, it's as if they've misinterpreted their own rules which ironically seems pretty par for the course because their rules are so convoluted that I haven't seen anyone able to play this game without having to issue a correction on how something was misplayed. At the very least, those duplicate starter decks should be clearly marked on the card backs as "non-unique" as a way to establish that they are kinda breaking the whole concept of the game. An interesting concept for sure, but the wording on the cards and the card interactions that lead to infinite loops which then leads to extra mechanics with even more convoluted rules; this game is kind of a mess. Sure, it can be fun, but it's still a mess. Which exactly what you'd expect from something procedurally generated, so I guess you can't really wholly discount it for that reason alone. What it does have going for it is cool and fun art, interesting characters, and enjoyable house concepts and themes. The gameplay is engaging and even when it feels like there's an imbalance between players, the game equalizes pretty easily. Games tend to be pretty neck and neck by the time you get to the end which is exciting. There are no interrupts, so you almost never get shot down on your own turn. You almost always have a slew of options for what to do on your turn and the game ramps up really quickly. Also, the generated names of the decks are quite fun and quirky and their uniqueness is really appealing since you don't get to form your own deck.

[@djb3v]

Too long didn’t read

[@hypnoticsorin8016]

Should I be shocked that FFG/Asmodee would be the equivalent of EA/Activision in the board gaming world? Seriously this game sounds just like a "gacha" game. The loot boxes and "epics" here are those chase decks, you probably will spend hundreds for or be blessed by the RNG gods and pull in your first purchases. I applaud you FFG you made a typical mobile game into board game form. I just dont get how no one sees this. And yes CCG's are the same so I'm not some MTG purist. Sure play casua, andl buy a few decks. But this is clearly catered to "whales" and tournament play, so FFG knew exactly what they were doing.

[@s4jmon]

"I played with 16 different decks" ...every deck is unique so every time you will play with other deck, it will be different. :)

[@s4jmon]

Edit: he say that later...but i needed to write something right when i heard it. (0:45 - comment was written)

[@ReadyAimFire_]

This whole uniqueness seems amazing at first, but then you realize it has many issues other card games dont have. Like for example balance, or dead cards that can be used, or the fact that it can viewed as cashgrab. If it was another company i would give it a try, but FFG- nope. They are just too shady, greedy and consumer unfriendly to support them.

[@Keithustus]

ReadyAimFire The balance is deliberately addressed by the handicapping and bidding systems used in tournaments.

[@Keithustus]

ReadyAimFire Richard Garfield: "There absolutely will be a range of powers with the decks, it would be arrogant to think we could identify algorithmically true power of a deck - and it would undermine one of the things I love most about games - that they are bigger than the designer - the players get better than the designers, and later players get better than earlier players. This means 'balance' is always a moving target..." More here: boardgamegeek.com/thread/2036853/deck-construction-algorithm-balance

[@QQ-oe3ex]

Your outfit kill another whale in Denmark.

[@TheGenXGeek]

So if I buy and get a crappy deck I can't fix it and have to buy more decks... Damn loot boxes from FF games. Pass.

[@luiscarlosqg]

I want this. But it is too expensive.

[@facepalm991]

Come on, a deck is $10 and that's all you need and a few tokens, dices or whatever to get you started.

[@EclecticCamel]

Tom won’t play this again and it might make an honorable mention on the next turkey list. Lol

[@ramonosuke]

Good call, feel the same way

[@thedicetower]

Huh. I've played it 15 times already, and would gladly play it again. Considered buying some more decks of it the other day when at the store.

[@thedicetower]

I'm trying to lose weight! I'm working on it!

[@EclecticCamel]

@@thedicetower It wasn't a criticism, you just don't hang in there on these style of games for long. I mean, in your line of work, it isn't surprising. I do wonder what you'll be saying about it in a year tho. And "whale" means you spend a metric ish ton of money on a game to stay on top. :)

[@nicksbordone5271]

Nah I think this game is right up Tom's alley (mine as well). Even though they focus on the competitive scene, this game is perfect for just grabbing a couple decks and playing casually with friends

[@ramonosuke]

So what's the reason they had for not including the full rulebook? Are board game companies getting that stingy/greedy to the point we can't even get rules? Dont see anything here of value for me in my opinion, to each their own of course. One vs one TCG/CCG/LCG's feel like a dead genre at this point, I'd rather play MTG or heck even try a dead CCG.I hope this "unique" games doesn't become a thing, cause so far I'm not impressed

[@BlueSapphyre]

MtG doesn't include the full rulebook when you buy their product...

[@crushycrawfishy1765]

This individual hopes this game dies because he does not like it.

[@omegonchris]

The full rulebook is available as a free pdf from their website. This allows them to potentially, make wholesale changes to individual mechanics and still have the rulebook up-to0-date. This is part of future proof-ing the core design that has formed the centre of FFGs collectable/living games for a couple of years now. If it turns out that they need to change a core rule in the game slightly to keep the game balanced (like changing the Overwrite rule in Star Wars Destiny), then they can do it, without having to worry about however many hundred thousand copies of the rulebook have been printed already with the previous rule.

[@ramonosuke]

@@crushycrawfishy1765 Yep you caught me, cause that is exactly what I conveyed in my post. Said it wasn't my cup of tea, but to each their own. If you like/love/cherish it, then great! Just me personally, I don't see the appeal.

[@ramonosuke]

@@omegonchris I guess that's true, didn't see it from that viewpoint, and it makes sense. Thanks for bringing perspective, instead of assumptions that the game should die, along with people who like it, in a fire.

[@MrJadude]

Interesting idea but the game unbalanced and not fun when you have dead cards in your deck. I feel like they were going to make an lcg with this but ending trying to make more money

[@omegonchris]

I've not yet seen a deck with a truly dead card in it yet. I've seen some very situational cards, but I've also seen those cards win someone a game if that situation ever came up. Every game I've played has felt interesting to play, with many tough decisions, and I've not been able to predict the winner at the half way stage, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say the game is unbalanced? Could you provide some at least anecdotal evidence of what you mean?

[@Fergit_]

16 decks at 10USD a time. Yikes.

[@Nukatha]

Still cheaper than one tournament-quality MTG deck

[@Crs9072]

You mean 16 decks at 0 USD. I doubt Tom has paid any money for any of those decks.

[@SlayerOfWorlds]

He doesn't always pay for their games....

[@ArnoVdVelde]

You aren't wrong, but those Magic cards are still worth something. Magic is crazy expensive, but for cardboard they can keep a lot of value. Something to consider.

[@Neonardo05]

@Rexler Brath No sir, you are just being a bit paranoic about this whole gambling thing. It's been a case for 20 years with Magic etc. and the world is fine somehow, so it can't be that bad.

[@aherosquest4536]

Second > First 😝

[@SuperPilotMike]

Loot boxes the card game

[@ramonosuke]

@Trackrise Or you could do the crazy thing, and buy the singles you need online and get exactly what you want, and create the deck you want. Not being able to create your own deck or have some type of customization hurts this greatly, and is more RNG heavy than Magic is, cause you might get a deck that doesn't synergize well at all

[@TheRmm1976]

The artwork is poorly done. Looks like a young kid's game.

[@Korgoon]

They're great for me, they're funny and beautiful at the same time.

[@callopski]

This looks really bad.

[@Silverback947]

It looks amazing to me. Official release is on Thursday and I can't wait to get some unique decks. If it's not appealing to you, just stay away from it. That is okay.

[@bricelory9534]

Not sure what looks bad to you about it, but I was at a pre-release event with 40+ people and everyone I heard seemed to have really good impressions. I found there was a lot more to it than the rules make it seem. More than almost any other game I have played, I would suggest trying it before completely dismissing it. The house-choice system leads to a lot mlre interesting choices than is obvious by the rule itself.

[@iamalittler]

What are you even wearing? You give us a bad name.

[@thedicetower]

Give who a bad name? Vasels? Men? Americans? Game Reviewers? Humans?

[@zeroisnine]

I didn't know that EA was in the board game business now. (shrug) Have fun giving your money away cult of the new board gamers!

[@artstsym]

Magic the Gathering is literally 25 years old.

[@aaronstark5060]

I don't understand your sentiment. How is it analogous?

[@artstsym]

The assertion I was responding to (at least, the implied assertion) was that this represents a marked shift in the board gaming scene towards the micro-transaction models of modern video gaming, when in fact those were derived from the tabletop gaming world in the first place (see: MtG).

[@aaronstark5060]

@@artstsym I was referring to the OP; I'm on your side.

[@arcubal]

Yeah, I don't see anything new under the sun here, let alone fun - just another "Magic" clone. Of the two 'Unique Games' - KeyForge and Discover, the latter is the far more interesting game cuz at least they're doing something new. Card combat games? Pff, so 1990's...Pass!

[@omegonchris]

A two player card combat game with randomised content, but no standard constructed format is something new. Also, it is from the same designer as Magic, so I think it's allowed to be at least a bit of a Magic clone.

[@Keithustus]

Arcubal design Magic without deckbuilding = a lot of players like me who turned against Magic are interested in it.

[@Keithustus]

Trackrise LOL at plays nothing like Magic. You have a deck of cards made of creatures, actions (spells), artifacts, and upgrades (enchantments). You have a draw phase, an action phase, an upkeep phase, and it's a head to head game in which card advantage is really, really important. If it doesn't play like Magic, then I guess King of Tokyo does?

[@Keithustus]

Trackrise Goddamnit you’re dumb: 1. You LOL don’t know what card advantage means so good luck with any competitive card game. 2. Phases and steps aren’t hugely dissimilar compared to a game like Evolution in which players play around in sequence within each phase of each round; in both Magic and KeyForge players proceed through their own turns in a set order in player sequence. 3. Power and toughness or just power are both ways to determine the strength of a creature, and in both games it is often a creature’s text and not its numbers that make it incredibly useful. 4. The resource to playing cards is picking your house and managing your cards intelligently, just like picking your lands and other mana cards and managing your cards intelligently. 5. Both games are a race. Go Fish is like neither because there is no card combos, parts of a turn, organized play, etc....cards alone don’t make games similar. Magic is similar to KeyForge the same way Poker is similar to Blackjack, whereas it would strain reasonableness to claim that Magic was like Poker and KeyForge was like Blackjack, or vice versa.

[@Keithustus]

Trackrise To help, first google result makes it clear that “Card advantage is, very likely, the single most important concept in competitive Magic. A tremendous proportion of games are decided, in one way or another, by card advantage.” Now go learn, and realize it isn’t computed just by how many cards you draw to each turn.

[@joeythegoth]

The random names are stupid and the art is off

[@bricelory9534]

I find the names hilarious, charming, and I actually found the art to be a *lot* better in person. I say that because I thought it looked pretty bad from all the stuff I saw, but it actually looks good in person. Might not be to your taste, but it is better in person.

[@joeythegoth]

@@bricelory9534 cool thanks for that it really isn't appealing to me but if I ever see it somewhere I'll give it a look for sure

[@bricelory9534]

@@joeythegoth I will say for sure that the theme is entirely non-existant but it didnt bother me at all. As an MtG player, I never really played this sort of game for its flavor. But I understand if it is off-putting.

[@omegonchris]

@@bricelory9534 I think the theme is designed to be sufficiently generic that, like Magic, they can go in any direction with it in future.

[@cmfsparks]

First

[@ericbond5276]

I read if you and your friend decide to customize a deck, after awhile the game will get boring and broken, what do you think??

[@Infyra]

Player who goes first also draws more cards?

[@Silverback947]

Yes, but can play only one card in the first turn.

[@Ghoulicus]

The first player draws 7 cards, then the second player draws 6. The first player can only play one card on their first turn, so they are at 6 with the second player. The second player has no restrictions on their first turn

[@TheSushiandme]

I was wondering what is keyforge... it isn't a TCG...

[@arekkrolak6320]

Most likely the deck titles and flavor texts are AI generated, and decks are also balanced by AI play testing, but still this is interesting concept :)

[@bodevangreen8150]

Would be a much better game if each deck came with 5 more cards. Then you have to choose what 5 cards you leave out of your deck. That way you can do a little bit of customization and the dead cards in a deck will be reduced massively.

[@Keithustus]

Bodevan Green Interesting, to have a sideboard with each deck. But if it was five cards, from which houses would they come, since each deck is constructed of 12 cards from 3 houses? Why not 6 extra?

[@evandyck3839]

I thought about that idea the other day! It would be dope.

[@bodevangreen8150]

@@Keithustus good point. 2 from each would be nice and simple. I honestly think they missed a good opportunity here. I know they wanted everyone to have unique decks, which is cool. But they could have done this and given people a little wiggle room for creativeness

[@mathiasolsson7616]

Guess the designers answer will always be: "Use chains to balance the game"

[@MarekKolcun]

The question is, why don't you try this right now with current decks? You already have 36 cards and discarding 6 of them gets you to still reasonable amount of cards (I believe Hearthstone has 30 cards in the deck as well). I didn't play the Keyforge yet, so I don't know how would this damage the deck dynamics, but if both players would throw 6 cards, I believe you could at least test this idea without any collateral gameplay damage.

[@javierper3z]

Print the rulebook? Jeez, how about leaving some trees for your grandkids to see? I don't think you're getting the point of not printing info that will be FAQ'd twice every month

[@artstsym]

Save the trees? It's a card game, my dude.

[@guglielmoscecspir1053]

Honestly i do not understand this whole ''gambling'' route everybody is shouting. You can call it gambling only if you are buying lots of decks to have a specific combo with specific cards. Otherwise for 10 dollars/euros you get a perfectly functional deck to play with, and if the algorithm is right it is pretty much balanced. So you are paying for something without the risk of losing anything. Not to mention it's a brilliant (because it is, almost everybody that tried it had fun) two player game with a 20 euros enter fee; there is so much value in those, it's almost hilarious to see so many comments about gambling.

[@lorcanawithluke]

This is the most exciting thing for me! AH cant wait!!

[@NinoMit87]

Had a deck with some dead cards that I couldn't use. One card let me do something with my knights but I did not have any or any change to get them. This gave me a huge disadvantage against my opponent who could use every card in an optimal way. If they fix their algorithm to prevent dead cards I would like to try this game again. But for now, I will rather play a more balanced game. Still think its a great concept and game but idea that if you get an unbalanced deck you have to buy new deck in hope its a normal functioning deck, I don't like.

[@Falkdr]

thanks for the warning. Didn't come up to my mind yet, that the algorithm itself maybe disfunctional.

[@NinoMit87]

@@Falkdr I just think they maybe did not think of dead cards enough. If they just put something in that the randomizer/algorithm cannot complete a deck if there is a card that needs at least one more card with a certain subtype. Then I think this already fixed. Still random personal decks and everyone a fair chance to use their whole deck.

[@nicksbordone5271]

This is the first I've heard anyone come across dead cards. The algorithm is supposed to handle this. Every review I've seen, the reviewer has played a dozen decks and hasn't come across that. Maybe you were very unlucky? If its like 1 in 100 chance of a poor deck, or higher, that's not bad. $10 wasted, but all of your other decks should be ok

[@nicksbordone5271]

I wonder if they would adopt a return policy, if your deck has a card which has 0 value. That might be a door that they don't want to open though.

[@NinoMit87]

@@nicksbordone5271 think that will cost them more money then adjusting the algorithm. With shipment costs on top of the returns etc.

[@macurvello]

2:12 That's 210, not 35

[@Creshex8]

Marco Curvello 210 is if the ordering matter, 35 if we are talking about combinations, not permutations.

[@macurvello]

@@Creshex8 you're absolutely right and now I'm embarrassed...

[@Creshex8]

I’m not entirely sure you are wrong, if certain types are prioritized, then it might not be through combinations alone, I don’t have some decks yet so I’m not sure.

[@BrettspielDude]

If they can’t balance magic without banning/ errata: why woukd they be able to in keyforge?

[@lastburning]

It's impossible to balance an infinite amount of decks. They seem to have a very low priority for balance.

[@ComradeArthur]

In tournaments, decks are tracked. If a certain deck wins too much, it gets handicapped in future tournaments. (by adding chains, I assume). You register each deck online at the start of each tournament and they track the W/L for that deck when the results are reported.

[@bricelory9534]

Part of it is that the algorithm can keep particularly powerful combos from showing up together or as multiples, if I understand it correctly. They admit rather freely some decks will be weaker than others, but I was imoressed that all I saw at least seemed interesting and had some synergies and sense of a game plan behind it. Have you tried your weak deck against other decks beside just the one? It may be that it just happened to be bad against that one but will be better against others. There are enough factors I feel to make that a distinct possibility. I had a deck that lost three out of three games to three different decks, but it felt more like because I wasn't playong my deck well rather than because it is a bad deck. I am not saying that you are a bad player for losing all the time, by any means, just that some of the weak decks may be weak because they take a lot more to learn how to play. I still feel like my particular deck can be powerful if I learn it better and play it more.

[@BrettspielDude]

Also why are there even rares or commons? The rarity of the cards has no influence on anything

[@bricelory9534]

@@BrettspielDude it just informs you which cards you can expect to see more frequently in a particular house, which can matter for when you are playing an unknown deck. If a card is a common, you can be wise and know to play against it more because there is a higher probability for it to be in a deck. Sure it isn't really a big deal, but that is at least one reason.

[@alwaysfallingshort]

What in the unbelievable difference does it make that someone I will never meet has a different deck? What a bizarre gimmick no one was asking for. They'll just be oversized booster packs, and everyone will put the cards in sleeves.... assuming anyone buys the game at all. I get that they want you to have a personal identity with your deck, but that's called "deck building."

[@fumin2689]

You are the BEST board game reviewer!

[@jimhale5860]

Boooo, I hope printing out my rule book does not become a thing...I get that people who do not want to purchase a starter need access to the rules but if purchase a starter set one would assume you would get a set of rules...

[@mynamesaretakenwtf]

Games like this get rules reworked all the time. It's easier to have players coming to tournaments and having them follow the rules online than having to explain to people who only bought the starter. Most recent TCGs have started this practice as well.

[@guilhermebelmonte1]

It looks like the gameplays is Boring

[@NerdimusPrimeX]

There are some very interesting card combinations so it is not boring but it does have a rock paper scissors feel sometimes.

[@bricelory9534]

I found the gameplay to be surprisingly subtle, with some very interesting choices. It is actually less straightforward than the rules imply. At least to me.