Keyforge - Shut Up & Sit Down Review

[@caltobello]

REVERSAL Tournament - played in one the other day. Bring your WORST deck to the tournament. When you play, you and your opponent switch decks so they try to beat you with your worst and you try to beat them with your worst. A cool game type where you don't throw away your worst deck. I really like Keyforge as i was crap at deck building.

[@w7w7w7w7w7]

Playing in one of these tonight. Such a clever format!

[@roflduck232]

I was lukewarm on the idea of Keyforge even after watching the review, but this comment may have excited me enough to want to buy the game. Truly a brilliant scenario to be put in.

[@jonnyace9198]

I'm decent at building magic decks and I still like Keyforge because it's *how* you play rather than how good yoour deck is. Rather than basically AFK playing like magic.. Turn 1 this turn 2 that.. Turn 3 ur tapped out so I can play this.. You really have to think when you're playing keyforge about every turn.

[@BadMotiv8tor]

p

[@daanjamo]

there is also a magic format like this called backdraft, where you draft (picking cards out of 3 packs of 15 cards that you pass along the table) in the worst way possible, and then at the end of the draft, another player gets the cards you drafted and somehow make a deck. Then you play some games, scoring points for every game you win and every game your deck loses!

[@gqsnowman]

The Adaptive format is AMAZING! You bring one deck, you play against your opponent, then you switch decks and play again. If one person won both games, they win. If it's tied, the players bid chains to use the deck that won both games in the tiebreaker. It's a fantastic format that I could see making its way into other games.

[@shutupandsitdown]

OK, that's genius.

[@gqsnowman]

@@shutupandsitdown Right? The power level of the decks doesn't matter! It's ENTIRELY skill, matchup knowledge, deck assessment, and mindgames! It's fantastic!

[@Dekedence]

Is it weird that this is the first I've heard of this format yet I literally did this exact setup in my last friendly with a friend?

[@gqsnowman]

@@Dekedence Haha. That's pretty awesome. About a week before they launched the game they released 4 or 5 other variants for tournaments that you could run as either Archon or Sealed. They came up with some fun ones.

[@banjoemily3852]

Adaptive Keyforge tournaments are the most fun I've ever had at a sanctioned event of ANY game

[@addisonhornermusic8804]

“That’s a profoundly embarrassing mashup, like finding your dad in Smash Bros.” This writing is beautiful.

[@mella4376]

"For people who struggle to follow the plot of Instagram stories" did get a chuckle out of me

[@SinOfAugust]

I did not get that... halp?

[@razieltaung4845]

@@SinOfAugust keyforge is for you then 😉

[@marcelopedraza7290]

@@razieltaung4845 don't be mean

[@666lupine666]

cant up because @ "69" uplikes

[@SinOfAugust]

@Raziel Taung - Can’t argue with this logic.

[@nebulapuppy]

Ah yes, the stun lime.

[@Jessie_Helms]

It’s too OP tbh

[@ClaeFace]

I love the dynamic of one of you disliking a game and the other defending it. It adds a really well rounded feel to the review

[@cheaptricked3148]

I definitely thought the introduction was going to be "it has the mindbending twist of not being based on Star Wars or Lovecraft"

[@GowanRavin]

PUT QUINNS' DAD IN SMASH YOU COWARDS

[@ISayEssays]

Couldn't you just make a Mii fighter of Quinn's dad?

[@Just_Another_Muffin]

I am loving Keyforge but I echo Quin's feelings about the game missing a cohesive flavor. Sometimes it feels like I am playing a match of League of Legends.

[@Goblincow]

That made me laugh on the bus. 10/10 comment, would read again.

[@omegonchris]

I can confirm that this lack of cohesive flavour does make this game more approachable for the more casual gamers in my area. Not everyone wants to be a wizard duelling another wizard, or a hacker trying to hack into a co-operation. This game being a bit … fuzzier with its theme allows them to access it in a way that every other 'similar' game (see Quinns' comment in the video about this game actually being nothing like MtG or Netrunner) doesn't allow.

[@LookAtTheBacon]

Funny, I think that's the best thing of KeyForge. I hated the standard, bland, boring fantasy art+world of MtG, so this fresh take here really resonates with me and let's me think I am playing a CCG version of Smash Up, which is amazing. Also, it's great to jokingly hate on factions. I would never for the life of me play with a Brobnar deck haha. Dumb giants. Worse enough that they are big on the cover ;)

[@Blakestefer]

@@LookAtTheBacon I've only played with the two starter decks in the box, but my gf won't let me use one of them because "Dis is her deck". She loves the Dis jokes so now I hate the Dis house :P

[@LookAtTheBacon]

@@Blakestefer See? Nice one haha :D Dis gon be gud...

[@bobnetherton4957]

I like the puzzle in Keyforge. Instead of spending my life searching for rare overpowered cards, the task in front of me is figuring out how to most effectively use the deck that I already own. Keyforge may well wear itself out in a few months, maybe longer. For now, it is being played regularly on game night and everybody seems to be having a fun time with it.

[@h2_]

Alexa, remind me to rewatch this video in 2098 so I can preorder my cooking video.

[@blade6321]

I love how you guys always break into a smile right at the end of a skit- the "wake up moment" for example. It and the general style makes the videos feel very...human? You the fact that they are a product of labour themselves inherent to the video; it's not some review that just "exists", the methodology is referenced and transparently viewable. Also, that Quinns wink is so precious.

[@IainMabbott]

This is a great review and why I love you guys. Matt's description of his experience with MtG is spot on for me. I had the same with Netrunner. Is my deck bad or am I bad? Good to hear this disrupts the collectable card game scene.

[@Thesteadfast]

That's the thing about Magic, is it requires a commitment. If you are not sure if your deck is bad it means you aren't good enough/experienced at the game. Identifying why I am losing and learning from it is the single most thing that made me good at Magic. That's the barrier for entry...once you learn the rules of Magic you are just beginning the learning process. Keyforge seems great for people who just want to play a card game without as much conceptual learning.

[@cobl8587]

@@Thesteadfast it almost seems like MtG is the chess equivalent of card games in that it has such a steep learning curve that it puts off most people.

[@Thesteadfast]

@@cobl8587 For sure about the learning curve. Kinda like chess except there's a lot of magic players who commit a ton of time and money to it and understand all the rules but are still very lousy at actually playing. There's also a lot of different versions of magic and some people get turned off trying the wrong one for them. Commander is the most like a board game and has become the most popular and its also the most casual friendly.

[@adamproach]

I would like to say the way you ended talking about just the discussion/discovery/speed play at the end is really why I’ve started to play it heavily. I absolutely miss being able to consistently play quick games of Android Netrunner and this game gives me that!

[@mylessherrill2380]

Such a fantastic review guys. I remember the first podcast you talked about it, Quinns hated everything about this game. Perfect way to go about this recommendation. Loved it!

[@justandyisok]

I really just want to say I've been sick with the stomach flu for the past 3 days, and watching Quinns eat a banana is the first thing that's really made me laugh in a while. Thank you so much guys.

[@tipulsar85]

The reason I like customizable deck games like Magic, L5R, and Cyberpunk is that while cards are fixed into what they do I can still make a deck behave quite differently due to what I put in to the deck. It also helps that there are other formats of play for the longer running games of that type with what is legal to play with.

[@omegonchris]

Keyforge is exactly the same, it's just that how that deck behaves is pre-set, not a choice you made. Across the 6 or so decks I own, there is a great variety of play styles, some creature heavy, some creature light, some very heavy control decks, some decks are only good if my opponent is ahead of me. All of them are fun to play, and give me a different feeling every time I sit down to play Keyforge. And I have all these decks ready to go at all times, rather than having to take one deck apart to move the core cards into another deck.

[@8Scientist]

14:40 is EXACTLY I think the mistake that magic the gathering made for years. They focused to much on competitive play which only a small percentage of people want to do. I cant stress enough how much it sucks to go to a game store, pay entry and get beaten down over and over again. Then, Commander, a purely casual format emerges and surprise surprise its now their most popular format.

[@lystic9392]

Finally someone else who says this. Preach!

[@craftsmenMC]

I frankly don’t see the appeal of commander. If anything is seems MORE competitive than the usual format

[@kaleidoslug7777]

@@craftsmenMC 100% agreed, and it has the downside of a whole unspoken social contract people expect you to follow, not to mention its unbalanced in really unfun ways and even has its own weird ban list for some reason. Although tbf, the more I learn about MTG the less I enjoy it

[@craftsmenMC]

@@kaleidoslug7777 among other things, the main thing that drove me so far away from commander is the fact I can’t have more than one copy of ANY card in my deck. That combined with the 100 card deck to me just sounds like I have to be an absolute master of the game just to get good synergies.

[@kaleidoslug7777]

@@craftsmenMC Right! Plus with more and more players its just more time waiting for your turn. And it just so happens I like really aggressive strategies that go all out and maul people as fast as possible, which is all but useless in that format

[@Buffalodude1]

The casual and fun format is what has me hooked. I've played 5 games so far and I'm realizing the deck I bought for my wife is way better than mine. But I've had a lot of fun trying to beat it. My opponents turns suck but its not too bad. The sealed tournament style is so delightful, I'm actually doing it with my brother tonight. We've got a whole evening planned over pizza and keyforge. I mean, that is what its all about. Its so delightful to me, and something that feels completely fresh.

[@TopDesu]

Such a good time seeing a review video from you guys!

[@Jaccident]

It's so interesting, as a long-time MtG player and ex-WotC employee, to have to relearn patience and composure. I swear I had turns where I got analysis paralysis just looking at all the nothing I should do. Because unlike MtG, where leaving Mana open for your opponents turn sends a clear signal, in KeyForge I felt it sent a signal of being out of control. The first turn spent just discarding was a watershed for both of us, and it changed the flow for both of us. First game a couple of days ago, it was fun to pick apart my deck's function, and my opponent definitely suffered from a "DO ALL THE THINGS" mentality which saw him chip my creatures out of play rather than score based on my board position, something his deck seemed ideal at. Ultimately that first game took 90 minutes, but boy was it fun!

[@JohnCodes]

The hype for Keyforge Kitchen is unreal. So glad I pre-ordered mine early.

[@GusG_]

@@austintanner5688 Watch the video

[@ananousous]

@@austintanner5688 Reading comments before watching the video? I hope you'll do better this year, Austin

[@jonknight4616]

Interesting overview. Keyforge seems to be the antithesis of everything I enjoyed from playing CCG/TCGs. While I do not have the time to sit down and ruminate about decks these days, I'd rather make the time to play rather than spend 10 bucks on a random deck I can't modify. If my deck sucks, it doesn't bring me any comfort knowing I can't change it, it just would feel like a waste of money to me. It's great that the game has found a home with many and I would be willing to try it at some point, I just can't see ever wanting to spend money on that.

[@oz_jones]

My sentiments exactly. If you like Keyforgre, go nuts fam. But it's not for me, I just love tinkering my decks too much. It's so satisfying to FINALLY to build a good UB deck that works well against my friends WG deck. I don't play tournaments because fuck that noise, I am not a masochist, but yeah. :D

[@snarfdk]

Good one! Thanks for this review it was just the right kind of information for me! I too love when I find ways to automate my work! That part really resonated with me!

[@Mattchew2232]

That feeling when you refresh your sub feed and see a new SU&SD video. 😘

[@Notorietypulp]

6:43 just because of the timing, and because I wasn't watching very closely, I initially thought Quinns had thrown a lump of carrot into Matt's mouth and just continued with the line with utter professionalism.

[@Pintyhet]

I really appreciate the dueling opinions on this game. I’m honestly torn on trying it because while it looks interesting I know the kind of things I want to do in a card game and this game doesn’t let me choose my deck or the things I’m going to do.

[@TheTabletopMisfits]

What you love about KF is what I do too. Thanks for saying it out loud. Hope it revives well.

[@louism2970]

Make sure to congratulate your director of photography mr matt the video quality has been through the roof lately

[@adamproach]

I think it’s odd how much people are saying the “deck” is all that matters vs a players skill etc. after playing ~150 games and owning 30 decks I’d say ~70% of decks are all close enough in power level to be negligible between two equally skilled players. ~10-12% on each end are slightly/appreciably good/bad and will skew the win/loss ratio slightly between equally skilled players and only ~3% on each end are exceptionally good or bad. The game works really well as both competitive in Adaptive and Gauntlet format that wasn’t discussed in the video, and great casually in really whatever format you’d like.

[@Table53]

Excellent review. I've never been a fan of Netrunner or Magic, not because of the game itself, but because they always felt like video game loot boxes to me. I totally agree with Matt, i love the idea that you can buy a deck and feel like you own Keyforge - if you buy a deck of Netrunner cards it feels like you own a small fraction of what Netrunner is. Great video!

[@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299]

LOL Isn't Netrunner designed by Garfield also?

[@Table53]

@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 Yep, in between bowls of lasagna!

[@buffalobear160]

Netrunner. The only loot box where you can scan the QR code before you buy and see the entire contents. Also, it's done being printed so you CAN own it all...for the price of a nice used car, but still.... Netrunner is the best two player game I've ever played by far.

[@omegonchris]

@@buffalobear160 They specifically weren't loot boxes though, LCGs have non-random packs that are effectively mini-expansions. Also, all of the LCGs have QR codes, not just Netrunner (may it rest in peace).

[@Shenaldrac]

You know that TCGs/CCGs have pre-built full decks you can buy that are built and meant to be balanced with one another right? Booster packs are just that- boosters for existing decks, giving you a small random assortment of cards to use to modify your decks. Also, you can buy individual cards on the secondary market, and thus get exactly the cards you want. You needn't rely on only booster packs, and indeed should not.

[@jasonbryant2219]

I LOVE you both so much. I truly do. Having said that, is it also OK to say that I miss Paul? I keep expecting him to simply appear in the corner of the room, pretending to take a turn. Paul is one of those personalities (like Chevy Chase, let's say) who can make me laugh with nothing more than a goofy look. By the way, I know that he is not dead or gone, but I still miss him. I think I need to go watch his review of Feast for Odin again......

[@mickeitsgmail8859]

+1 on everything you said! I love Quinns and Matt, i really do. But my oh my do i miss Paul!

[@IstasPumaNevada]

You mean "Feast _Of_ Odin". ;D

[@Shenaldrac]

Please bring back Brendan.

[@imperialadvisoraremheshvau3788]

Thank God and the House of Commons that I still have my VHS player! I need that How to Make Tokens Guide. Cheers. Preordering.

[@nicholasbeuken2000]

I found a a copy KEYFORGR 2019 2 player starter set of this yesterday for £3 at a charity Shop in UK. It had 2 seal deck (that original come with game). Plus surprisingly, I believe it as 3 extra non seal decks, so I apparently got 3 deck in the game. So sometimes buying use pays off more than just used condition box, cheaper price and sometimes extra components in this case, 3 extra KEYFORGR deck.😅

[@joem8507]

So if I back the spachtower, will I get a complimentary video teaching me how to make my own Shut Up and Sit Down Keyforge tokens, a Feyforge deck bag?

[@Goblincow]

That's locked behind stretch goals, I'm afraid

[@kamotoo]

"Like finding your dad in smash brothers." that gave me a good laugh!

[@bloodboughtson9126]

Pokémon meets Hearthstone... but I still love it! I also have to say, I really like how you both delve into the game players mind asking the deeper, "Why" questions. The answers to those questions are what justify spending valuable time and money from a gamers slice of their life.

[@liampeterson8299]

"It that wickedly supports taxation" I can't stop laughing at this

[@barevna]

I got drunk playing Zombicide and in the morning, I found out I'd bought three decks of Keyforge on my way home... so I hope I'll like it :-)

[@Roxfox]

Very good review. As someone who LOVES the synergy of deck building and playing (but also hates the cost and randomness of being "good" at games like Magic (Netrunner is the best game ever made)) I was scratching my head trying to figure out why Keyforge even exists. Matt's perspective opened my mind to the possibility that there might be more to card games than I thought. Room for different kinds of play and players that haven't been represented in the industry yet. That's exciting! Let's see where this thing goes!

[@Falkdr]

would really like to see more coverage of Keyforge on SU&SD: how it evolved, what's coming up... Maybe on the podcastle?

[@Shot007]

Great review. You guys are the masters of nuance. Best Keyforge review ive seen.

[@BoardtoDeathTV]

Nice! good times :) There are still Starters for sale though if you know where to look. Not sold out (yet). Keep up the good work guys!

[@Hahahahaaahaahaa]

Keyforge is basically "It's Different: The Card Game"

[@Kindlesmith70]

Lootbox: the Physical Card Game.

[@FireFox64000000]

Everything you'll have described about this game reminds me of everything I love about drafting.

[@VULTUSPRIME]

One of the most intelligent reviews I have seen.Well done boys!

[@omegonchris]

Yes, Matt, you can come around my house, have some fish fingers for tea and play Keyforge.

[@omegonchris]

You can keep your pogs, I'm good.

[@Osborne4Life]

As several have said, future Keyforge tournaments are going to try to follow the ADAPTIVE format mainly, as it works with both sealed and open decks. Play a game, switch decks with your opponent, play the next one. If you lose both games, you really have no-one to blame but yourself since you should have been paying attention to how your opponent's deck played in the first game so you can try to do similar with that deck the second game. Then bidding chains to use the better deck for the third game... each player is basically given an even and fair chance to win the match. Of course, due to the virus this can't really be done now. But once it's safe for organized play to become a thing again, this will be a cool tournament format.

[@threepoint14159265]

Hey a Team Covenant shoutout on the VHS! Nice.

[@BecauseOfDragons]

Mentioned it on Twitter but the game shines best when played in that Sealed format. I love the idea of turning up, everyone not knowing what they're playing and getting stuck into a fun day of learning their decks AND playing games. Much better than the format where you just bring your strongest deck - feels more KeyForge to just have some random fun. As a note on the artwork I think they've done a good job of bringing very different genres together. I liken the game to Overwatch/Paladins etc where you have very different looking characters in the same world - and I think the art director(s) on the team did a sterling job of keeping the style consistent across the board despite having so many different artists.

[@fireant202]

Because Of Dragons definitely! I would never have the money time or confidence to enter a mtg tournament but a blind keyforge tournament is so approachable! Opens up game tournaments to a whole new audience!!

[@Thesteadfast]

Sealed/Draft is the best way to play Magic. It's the same thing where you don't know what you are going to play and an even playing field. I think a lot of people get turned off by Magic because they play awful pay to be competitive constructed and then get crushed.

[@BecauseOfDragons]

@@Thesteadfast For sure - I'd only play Magic with one of the Starter Decks (I pick up two every so often and give them a go) or as part of a Sealed format where you get to have a bit more fun with it :)

[@HeinzMcDurgen]

@@Thesteadfast drafting cards still requires you to know some of the meta or at least what that edition has going on.

[@Thesteadfast]

@@HeinzMcDurgen True. Takes a few hours to hear a set review to learn the new cards. Magic has a high learning curve in all formats but the payoff for draft is totally worth it.

[@lawrencecollins7398]

Put the damn RULEBOOK in the BOX! Infuriating.

[@omegonchris]

This is to allow them to change the rulebook with errata and tweaks without invalidating what has been printed and given to tens of thousands of people. Also, it's fairly standard for the CCG format. Destiny didn't come with a rulebook, Magic doesn't come with a rulebook, Pokemon doesn't come with a rulebook, etc. etc.

[@omegonchris]

@@ROOKTABULA can you name a CCG that does come with a rulebook?

[@hansimmenthal1229]

Since the release the rulebook has changed significantly within a few weeks. It was smart to not include a physical one. Think of all the trash :)

[@Mixxathon]

If only there was some way to access the rulebook as easy as it is posting on Facebook......

[@martind2520]

I've got several sets of Pokemon cards with rulebooks in. Munchkin CCG came with a rule sheet too.

[@gamercow517]

Keyforge: For MtG players who love playing Storm.

[@theoleadfoot2864]

Where every deck is a combo deck, or mini commander

[@fabsap9329]

The back and forth of criticisms and admiration from you two is wonderful and represents such a chaotic game perfectly.

[@sylinmino]

So I just got into Keyforge and funnily enough, Quinn's reasons for hating the lore/art direction are why I love it! I think if you're going to build a world with a bunch of clashing tones and a "worlds collide" feel, you've gotta lean into it and double down. And I think Keyforge unambiguously embraces the silly side with the generated deck names, whacky factions (my favorite being the Saurians right now. Almost every new card I see is hilarious), and diverse design languages per house. EDIT: The Saurians were added after this review, so it's possible that much of the obvious leaning into the silliness also only happened over time.

[@kevinobrien1026]

Got this idea from Reddit, but love it. Add some extra buy-in/immersion for your decks by crafting up your own goofy/fun/melodramatic Archon story for each deck.

[@jenniferburns9637]

Not the review I was expecting. I really wanted to dislike Keyforge on principle--despite never having played the game. But im relieved to hear that it is most enjoyable when played for the experience, and not as another game to conquer (as this was my initial concern). As someone who doesn't have the time to play another competitive deck-building game (spending hours and hours mulling over the mechanics of what I've put together), this sounds extremely refreshing. So, I think I shall give Keyforge a go. With vegetable keys. Because that's just plain entertaining. Thanks for the honest review!

[@omegonchris]

I think this could be every gamer's palate cleansing sorbet of a casual game for when they just want to have some fun.

[@RatOrchestra]

I know it's not a rational way to look at this game, but I first heard about Keyforge not long after hearing that Fantasy Flight was no longer producing Netrunner, and whether or not it holds any blame, I can't help but associate this game with the end of probably my favourite card game in recent memory. I don't know if I'd even be able to play it without just feeling the bit of bitterness.

[@RatOrchestra]

@@Ciph3rzer0 Yeah, I recognize that it doesn't make sense to blame this game, but it's just sorta doomed by association for me.

[@brucesmith8584]

As a person who used to play competitive magic. This game is good. Static unique decks are refreshing. Admiringly I just play with my son nowadays and we randomly pick a deck out of a pool of 4 decks some good some bad. Thumbs up here.

[@unforseenconsequense]

I have played a few deck building games but never really enjoyed sitting by myself looking up all the cards available and working out the best X cards in a deck and preferred playing a bunch more, but I'd inevitably get ruined by my competitive friends who would constantly spend money buying more cards to have stronger decks to the point where my best deck would compete only with their worst decks, keyforge has fixed that for me and now I just play I love that about it

[@omegonchris]

This game has partly been designed specifically to counter the net-decking phenomenon that has taken some of the fun out of card games for me over the last 10 years, and that alone makes me love it. The best casual card game I've ever played, that is guaranteed not to ever become too competitive in the local meta.

[@peterwantspie]

For me, Matt nails it in this review. If you don't have the time, money or inclination to spend hours painstakingly curating decks for games of this kind, Keyforge is a godsend. This is the one I've been waiting for. It's just FUN! I would also disagree with Quinns on the theme: the idea of multiple worlds colliding, mingling and coexisting is one I really like. The whole multiverse thing is so hot right now. I hated the inclusion of Mars as a house at first, but when I discovered that there's a card 'The Common Cold' that instantly kills all Mars creatures? It clicked. Keyforge is the most excited I've been about a game in a long time, and this is reflected in the fact that I'm fairly certain this is the longest comment I've ever left in a KZbin video. Get involved!

[@justinfarkas]

Yep was not really on board with the theme at first but after reading and theorizing about the story of Archons, architects and the Crucible it actually is really interesting and profound. I think there is tons of stories and theme and interesting questions to be learned and answered. Theory I feel it’s a lot like WestWorld on a more cosmic level. Beings creating other beings with magical technology also allowing alternate dimensions and/or time travel to help establish a new home for different races and creatures from across time and space on the Crucible.

[@AndyCotgreave]

Amen

[@ThorAxiun]

Excellent comment and I agree 100%. Really happy to hear that others are equally loving and excited about the game as I am. Going to my first local event this weekend and I could not be more thrilled.

[@RabidHobbit]

I think this is a different way to present the perspective: As a kid you think "it would be cool to see wizards fight" or maybe "hacker versus corporation, how cool". These are archetypes; familiar stories. Nobody ever says "Man I want a game about Archons competing to forge keys". It feels tacked on. It feels like they designed the rules first "man I want a randomly generated yet fair cardgame without the need for deck-building". After they had a great game they said "okay what kind of setting can we create to make this work?". To be fair it doesn't have to mean the setting is terrible when it is designed this way, but it just doesn't have that gutty punch and feels a bit contrived. Edit: Also, Quinn's never mentioned it (or I missed it) but the flavor text is the worst I've ever read in a game. Edit2: Just to say I do enjoy the game (although lament the lost opportunity for an interesting theme).

[@jasonthacker2912]

Could you do me a HUGE service, mate? My girl and I love Magic. But we are both busy professionals who lack the time to chase cards, build and tweak decks, and still actually play. Do you think a game like Keyforge would appeal to us? Thanks!

[@GeinponemYT]

Great review, one question though: what was going on with that tin foil with the banana peel on in on the couch?

[@markbaker465]

It was a reverse-temporal Chekhov's gun. Very complicated stuff.

[@GeinponemYT]

@@markbaker465 aha, I can finally rest in peace now. Thanks cap.

[@MrJeepinZeke]

I live Keyforge for getting pickup games when I don’t have enough time to play a more in depth game with setup time. The theme and art turned me away when I first saw it but now I’ve grown to enjoy it and really like some of it.

[@TheBioRules]

Like Matt, my favorite deck to play is one that is likely not very good (I've rarely won) but it feels so unique and has a particular combo that I enjoy. For one, it has 7 Artifacts, where at the time the average deck had between 1 and 3. Being able to keep pulling out these Artifacts to keep on the table often kept players off balance. On top of that, it has two particular cards: one Artifact that makes any creatures that die not go to the discard but instead be removed from the game, and a spell that kills all the creatures on the table. So as a last ditch where my opponent has 6 giant brutes I can't fight vs my 1 squishy bug, I can wipe the board, maybe make a comeback. I love it for that chance at greatness, even if it never happens.

[@jessebruning6738]

I've been sitting on my Starter set and a couple extra decks, waiting to get them under the Christmas tree for my son. Cant wait to try it out, but I will admit that my excitement for this has waned a bit since seeing its release and reception.

[@omegonchris]

Don't fret. This game is an absolute blast for casual gaming at home with family members. It's easy to learn with surprising levels of depth, and it's fun to try various match-ups of decks, with a built in balancing mechanic if you feel that one deck is significantly better or worse than any others.

[@smooth122]

I love the discussion you guys have during reviews

[@bavettesAstartes]

I fucking lost it when Quins couldn't help but laugh during the slapping scene. I could tell that that was not planned or rehearsed and it tickled me funny.

[@alexandermarquez2266]

I knew it! Those damn Brits are coming for us! Seriously though, great review guys. KeyForge has been a joy to play and I've been experiencing similar growing pains within the community trying to figure out how this damn game works.

[@khananiel-joshuashimunov4561]

In games like MtG, my favourite bit is theory crafting and tinkering with the deck. My least favourite bit is the pay to win factor. This seems to lose the former and exacerbate the latter. As for the aesthetics, one of my favourite game aesthetics is Smash Up, which is wonderful. That game also has RNG in terms of what deck you play, but it's more manageable since you know right off the bat what you're dealing with. For example, against newer players I'll never play Wizards + Aliens because my, the engine potential there is stellar.

[@GambitsEnd]

Watching this video again because of the new set of Keyforge on Game Found. I like the game for what it is and at the time it released, it was an extremely novel ideal when you can literally just pick up a random deck and jump into playing. But in 2022, I feel like other games kind of do it better now. For example, Magic now has JumpStart, grab two boosters with a random theme and mash them together for a deck. Same pick up and go feeling as Keyforge with the same excitement of randomness. Even the same price point. Biggest difference is with Jumpstart, you can then use those cards in your regular decks if you want to.

[@artstsym]

100% agree with the review. I like the puzzle of the core mechanic (how is Richard Garfield so good at this?), but it's got such a wide variance that simply dropping $10 to figure out whether you like it or not is the ideal solution. Also whoever designed Bait and Switch should be fed to wolves.

[@Dekedence]

local BCG has a starter set with playing mat. So you could either opt to buy two unique decks for £16 or play their starter set (all day) for £8...plus what you spend on food/drink.

[@artstsym]

Ok sure but the same could be said for all games: recommend you try it on someone else's dime before purchase.

[@OddtwangofDork]

I had a game the other day which featured back-to-back Bait and Switches from my opponent and then from me, with about 9 aember changing hands the first time. Good times.

[@jaashlock18]

One key component of keyforge that I think gets often missed when comparing to magic is this. For a competitive magic deck, or an army list in a competitive game like Warmachine/Hordes (both of which I also play/have played competitively) one is generally going to spending $300+ USD, on the VERY conservative end, not counting the additional purchases when you have to make adjustments for the general meta. I bought seven decks to start totaling about $50 from miniature market, and in those seven got two very strong decks, two decent to good decks, one that is okay, and two bad decks. All the decks are fun to play though, and I know several people who have spent less than a hundred dollars and have all gotten at least 2-3 decks that were strong or felt very competitive. That puts the cost of entry into competitive play WAY lower than many other competitive games. Granted it is a toss up due to the randomness, but so far the ratio of good to bad decks I have witnessed is, at the very least 2:1. And just because a deck is "bad", doesn't necessarily mean it's always bad. One of my decks containing Mars/Shadows/Brobnar isn't great if you're opponent can clear a lot of creatures with action and increase their tempo quickly, like say if they have shadows and dis. But if they have a somewhat slower creature heavy deck like an untamed/sanctum/brobnar, that Mars deck suddenly does very well, having a lot of stuns, creature removal/control, etc., and being able to buy itself the time to get these big aember swings and suddenly have a battle line that can just reap 7-8 aember per turn.

[@Valtharr]

so, for someone who doesn't want to play hardcore competitively, why should they play Keyforge insterad of, say, the Pokémon TCG, where theme decks cost about the same as a KF deck, and the cards in those decks can still be used for deckbuilding if they want that option?

[@jaashlock18]

@@Valtharr idk anything about pokemon tcg, but I would assume that the difference would be exactly what you said. If you want to deck build, it might not be for you. Some people just aren't interested in that aspect, and the endless restructuring and testing turns them off of things like MTG. Still doesn't hurt to buy a deck and give it a shot for a less than $10 investment. Might also be interesting as a supplementary game for those times when you just dont want to think about builds. Also like I said, idk anything about pokemon tcg, but I cant imagine a traditional style tcg where you can build a deck for less than $10. I think a really interesting thing about KF is its ability to be played through the entire spectrum of very casually to competitively.

[@iheartreno]

@@Valtharr One big thing about playing a Customizable Card Game isn't just how *you* want to build the game, but how *other people* want to build for it. You can choose to be a player on a limited budget, but you need other players to share their limitation on budget or power level, or your Pauper deck will keep getting beaten for its trouble. With Keyforge, you never have to worry about running into someone who wants to outspend you. Every random deck is random, no matter how many you buy. At best, someone might have a deck that really works for their playstyle and against their meta. The best way to beat a Killer Deck in your playgroup isn't to keep cracking packs, but to find a deck that preys on the dominant deck. Winning through better play, not bigger wallet.

[@mattrobinson973]

Imagine if SUSD actually put out a VHS like one of those odd "top 10 best footballers ever" videos from the 90s, that would be oddly thrilling. Matt is the terry venables of board games with Quinns as his Glenn hoddle

[@bryanclimer6378]

I have legacy decks, modern, 93/94, etc in MTG... and I was SHOCKED at how much I enjoyed the depth of Keyforge. It... was completely counter to what I thought I'd feel about it. There is so so so much design space for it.... and there is so much strategy to it. I opened up my deck and pulled off some random assed combo where I wiped multiple creatures, stole a bunch of Amber and then captured even more... and I had no idea my deck could even do that, lol.

[@Mixxathon]

I'm so proud to have finally contributed to a SUSD video. When they show random decks, the first one they show is my very first deck - Tombdirk- the Teacher of Socialism :D

[@potzertommy]

*7 houses

[@Dekedence]

paused the video to find this comment!

[@shutupandsitdown]

You know how we feel about saying the word six

[@StefanLopuszanski]

Love the food as tokens. I had to go out to an arts and craft store to buy plastic beads for tokens (and other prototyping), but yeah...

[@dragoneye13]

This game is great for players like me who don't get into deckbuilding and just like to buy some starter/structure decks of CCGs and play with those as-is.

[@TheNerdySimulation]

The moment someone told me that Keyforge didn't allow for deckbuilding I was so delighted. I feel like this game was built for the people who enjoy playing CCGs but loathe the min/maxing, go for throat gameplay elements which come with most of them. When I sit down to play a Card Game with friends, I just want to have fun and see what silly things might happen not stress about if my numbers are gonna beat your numbers.

[@cthulwho8197]

TheNerdySimulation except that the random algorithm may have build two decks where deck A will always beat deck B because of the way each deck plays. So every time you sit down to play with your friend you know that whoever is playing deck A is going to win. Still fun?

[@Valtharr]

then why don't you just buy theme/starter decks? or any kind of precons? nobody is forcing you to deckbuild, especially if you only want to play casually.

[@caseymcenelly3806]

"All of this sits on the game like a bed."-->"In Soviet Russia, bed sit on YOU!"

[@nicholasgibbons936]

Great game! I haven't gotten the starter set but I already have six decks.

[@REDNECKNERDVT]

I know this review is old but I'm thinking about getting into KeyForge for my son. he's tired of losing to rich kids at MTG. We're hoping for fair gameplay.

[@Exaar]

While I quite like the idea of Keyforge in theory, I can't help but feel like to get serious about it would be essentially throwing money into a hole. The fact that you have no clue, when you lay down your 10 bucks, if the deck you're going to buy is even going to be remotely good seems like a huge gamble. What if my friends and I all go down to the store, and buy one deck each to play against each other, and the deck I get is objectively worse than the deck my friend gets? How is that any fun for me? My only recourse is to go back and.. buy more decks until I get a better one? It's essentially Loot Boxes, the card game, and it seems really dangerous for anyone with any kind of predilection for gambling addiction. Or just people who don't like wasting money.

[@the1gofer]

Sounds just like a ccg to me.

[@Exaar]

@@the1gofer There is certainly an element of gambling in any ccg, but the difference is that if I buy a pack of cards for a CCG, chances are I can use at least some of those cards in a deck I build. Even if I don't get an amazing ultra card, those cards still have use. In Keyforge, if you buy a bad deck.. you cannot re-use any of those cards. You literally just burned a 10 dollar bill. If I then buy a second deck, and its better than my first deck, that first deck will never be played again. It is literally useless forever. At least in a normal CCG, if I construct a better deck, I can re-use cards from my previous deck and continue to get value out of them. That is not the case with Keyforge.

[@aarcade6676]

1. The power of the deck is only about half of your success, depending on skill level the worst deck ever could potentially beat the best deck. 2. If you want to get serious about key forge you're doing it wrong

[@Exaar]

@@aarcade6676 I certainly agree with #2, but they are organizing like official tournaments for it and stuff which seems to suggest they WANT you to get serious about it, at least.

[@omegonchris]

My main counter to this is 1) I've found this game fun with every deck I've opened and 2) I've not yet seen any truly bad decks. Some decks are easier to get a grips with than others, but every deck I've seen (20+) can win. It may take longer to master some decks and unlock their potential, but the power curve between the best and worst deck I've seen is not that big.

[@CompressionPolice]

It's all fun and games until Matt ACTUALLY releases the how-to video in 2099

[@redsands1001]

I'm not someone who's serious about card games. So this being pretty casual appeals to me. Playing against someone who's individually purchased each card and built a maximally effective deck versus my bare amount of time build is not appealing. I can see where people who are serious about card games don't like the lack of customization. I like the idea of the worst deck tournaments though.

[@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299]

My dad would kick arse in Smash Bros. Taught my buddy how to play keyforge in 10 minutes, I am still teaching another buddy how to play MTG after a month of FMN. I think the best thing I am getting from keyforge is how initially it comes off as very simple but the further you play the deeper it gets.

[@purklefluff]

Funny and informative. Worth a subscribe, methinks!

[@iheartreno]

13:13 Happened to me last night. Guy pulled out a deck, said it was his worst deck, and he couldn't see how he could win with it. I offered to pilot it against him, so we shuffled up. I did lose, but it was because he played Key Charge, so I don't blame the deck.

[@ZoidbergForPresident]

I regret buying the box, I really can't get into it, it just doesn't "tick" with me, from the half a dozen games I played I felt miserable most of the time... :/ I agree with some of the points made by that bespectabled guy. I don't think I'll ever get into Keyforge, and I'm barely casual MTG player...

[@sovrrngrandsonic4192]

I 100% agree with everything Land Station said. I am one of the lucky people who were waiting for exactly this game to give me what I wanted because all I ever got from MtG was always serious bile rising from my stomach. I think it is probably the most horrendous game I've ever played. I'd rather play Monopoly. Well, no, but it is Absolutely awful. So thanks Richard Garfield and FF for balancing the scales on that a bit. Now, bring back Netrunner, and we're good. Thanks. PS- I've been using organic free range eggs as keys and blueberries as aeambrer and it is TASTY. Highly recommend. You smash the eggs when you forge the key! Great fun.

[@-dizzoj-]

Hey guys, where are all these cool tournaments and meetups in London/the UK that you mention?!

[@cantrip7]

I absolutely hated the theme at first, but I've never played a game where each card's effects feel so perfectly matched to the art and name. Many games with themes I LOVE, it's purely aesthetic, and the connections are extremely tenuous. I don't care how well developed Kaladesh is in MtG if all the artifacts are indistinct, ornate globs and every card is called GARULOUS FINUBULATOR OF MARKET GALOOSH. Here, I have a card that makes my opponent pay me aember to play artifacfs called "Customs Office" with all the races of the game lining up to a drab desk in the middle of a jungle. For me, that's a triumph of theme. Also, it's already been mentioned, but the Adaptive format solves basically all the game's RNG problems... except for grindy control decks being allowed to exist in a game that's meant to be fun. I have TWO of them and they both give 2 hour best-of-3s.

[@PetrVojtech]

In the and a lovely and fun review! To be honest, I love KeyForge because I am not really into super-competitive play. I've attended a seal tournament and it was great! Really good concept as you are learning the deck while playing. P.S. I love ma Mars combos, they are just silly and fun!

[@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299]

#JohnSmytheIt :P

[@jonathanw4432]

I understand both sides in this review. Theme is such a important thing to me. Not just lore to read online more of the theme of the game and board. Aliens and elves is kind of weird. Although a game that can be entry level at any time is also amazing. I used to do mini magic tournaments with random new decks. So the fact of that one of the tournament styles is this same thing is awesome.

[@niffnozzletoff4552]

Great review, and I appreciate the uniqueness that this game brings, but cannot determine if it is something I want in a game. There's appeal to a set deck that you don't have to worry about building yourself to be good, just your ability to play it, but it's another thing all-together to have these pre-made decks that are random in their purchase for $10 a piece, and have some of them be either intentionally bad, or just bad by comparison. Having the only solution to determine if these decks are bad is to ultimately buy more and compare, or research on the internet (are these decks truly random, or if I bought a couple of boxes of these are there decent chances I get a duplicate?) Which brings up another concern - unlike other ccg's, where even if cards in a rando pack aren't good or duplicated, you can use them elsewhere or trade/sell them. If I do drop $10 on a deck that cannot be modified in any way, what IF I get a duplicate? If it becomes common knowledge down the road that the particular duplicate is awful, you can't trade/sell/etc, you may as well use the cards to roll your own at that point. Also, apart from tournaments, what prevents people from altering their deck? Yes, there's a little checklist of cards that are in it included with every one, but are you going to take 2-3 minutes every game to inspect your opponents deck to make sure every card matches? I'd be more open if the developers said every deck is good, but I haven't heard that, and to people that say you need to spend time to learn the deck and play it right, ya, sure, I could do that, but I can also play any other ccg and build my own that I know works, instead of spending days being frustrated and losing time and again to find out that the deck I have just can't beat another one anyway. My free time is limited, I'd like to spend it having fun.

[@MozilloGames]

I really like the IDEA of Keyforge, but I'm also entirely turned away by that very same idea. The potential investment required is off putting and I figure I can get a vaguely similar experience from playing a deck building game, like Star Realms.

[@ARL2D2]

I just got the new Starter set and had a game with my dad the rules were a bit confusing since it felt like deformed magic the gathering but then I fell in love with it

[@Steve_Keen]

So to sum it all up, you recommend it for being different, for limited player agency, for limited consumer agency, and for being superficial enough that it doesn't really matter how good a deck is or not because you can just ditch all those cards into the bin and press your luck on a new deck. Cool.

[@CrazyRandomLord]

Limited consumer agency? What's keeping you from buying the game?

[@Valtharr]

@@CrazyRandomLord It's limited consumer agency because I literally have no way of knowing what I'm actually buying. At least with a TCG, I can buy starter and theme decks, precons built by third parties, or single cards I want for my deck, instead of relying _entirely_ on luck. A TCG gives me, the consumer, options. Keyforge does not.

[@CrazyRandomLord]

@@Valtharr despite the fact that you can't exchange individual cards, you can still buy the better decks the same way. The whole point of the game is that it isnt about collecting cards so why would it have those features? I find the consumer agency point a redundant criticism to tack on.

[@GrasenGM]

You know, I'd love a video showing what's on the bookshelves I keep seeing in the background.

[@marcm3]

No matter how much time it took, I'm sure syncing the sound effect to the wink was worth it.

[@benlauson555]

Keyforge is a solid 5/10. It's made to be stupid simple... and it becomes blatantly obvious when you play it.