Kill Team: Hivestorm - Thoughts on 4th Edition and What Could Be Improved

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Correction! It looks like they have removed the measurement shape icons, as the measurement gauge no longer has them (which I missed). YAY!

[@Griffonbait]

Yes, and for those who are only used to the shapes, they can always add then onto their measuring guides to help them adjust. Also, if you are a graphics designer, then you would know that the text font size on your little cards is way too small for the visually challenged (oldies like me) to be able to read them while standing, and the cards are on the table. Bigger text = greater readability at range.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Those used to the shapes will have their old measuring gauges if they want them. I've been a graphic designer for 34 years and know everything there is to know about the subject thanks. 😆 I'm 58 and use reading glasses and can read my cards perfectly well, and text size is a completely subjective choice depending on one's eyesight and use of glasses (or denial of the need to get them!). I'm not talking about text size anyway, I'm talking about huge table-hogging cards with lots of blank space and overly and unnecessarily verbose rules descriptions on them.

[@LordTechnopants]

The shapes are history. What a GW turning point!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

HUZZAH!!!

[@prometheum5]

I really appreciate the way you cover games like this. Practical considerations like 'it's hard to fit all this stuff on the table' or 'there's tokens everywhere and it's super fiddly' are great things to know that a lot of people don't bother to mention.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Hey, thanks for that. I feel like other people are covering things like the lore and the minutiae of unit stats and all that stuff - my focus is on the practical business of having fun! 😆

[@rasmusolesen5307]

I wish they would make a version of 40K/Kill Team/Combat Patrol that lives somewhere between the complexity of Underworlds and WarCry.

[@raincoast_bear]

Absolutely! Warcry game mechanics are so much smoother.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Certainly a bit more of the Warcry formula would be great. Well, we'll see how streamlined this new version is.

[@volcano3493]

When I first heard about the geometric symbols in Kill-Team I noped out faster than Usain Bolt completes his 100m dash.

[@bauguilhugo9037]

so Bad to miss 3 years of fun cause of shapes, but Hope to see you on board again !

[@LordMagiru]

@@bauguilhugo9037 I played it and it wasn´t fun. Felt like a soulless competition game like most modern post 2015 GW rule sets.

[@tiredguy2753]

To all the people who loved the shapes what say you now… where is your faith now ?

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Well, it can be very fun - but yes, there's a lot of fiddly special ability brain-bursting overload. Here's hoping this version will cut it back.

[@volcano3493]

@@LordMagiru Yep, my experience as well after a very quick & shallow intro game.

[@kudosbudo]

10:46 i wish if they used big cards the used all the space to make the words larger and easier to read. big problem i find with lots of these games is folk i play with struggle to read the cards even with their reading glasses.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

True, but my reference sheets use 6pt type and I can read them quite easily with reading glasses. I sometimes think those who complain about the type on my rules summaries really should accept the fact it's time to visit an optometrist - especially since my demographic seems to be weighted towards guys over 40!

[@bradp6452]

I think you are right about the overload of special rules. Each of the factions end up with 30+ special rules. Add those to the pretty involved rules of the base game and it is a lot. I actually think the compendium level teams from the last launch was the right rules level.

[@raincoast_bear]

Agreed. The bespoke teams having a bunch of special rules and even currencies to collect and spend is BS.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Sounds like everyone is sick of the complexity, so hopefully they've heard that feedback loud and clear for this version.

[@pancakeonions]

I listen to your criticism with interest, this coming from a man who plays and enjoys dystopian wars! That game makes my head explode, and I haven’t played it in years :-)

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Well, sometimes you feel like a bit of crunchiness 🤣

[@Christian_from_Copenhagen]

GW are really putting out a lot of stuff lately, but only the Skaventide box seems like it has the proper balance between value and actual fun when playing. I like the models here and in the new Necromunda box, but I'm still not convinced I'd enjoy playing the games.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Skaventide Spearhead would hit the sweet spot if they got rid of the 'to wound' roll, IMHO. But the ease of reference rules-wise is a huge improvement. I'll keep you posted on this new Kill Team and you can see if it's the game for you.

[@steve-xt1zg]

Couldn't agree more mate on all your points. I love the idea of Kill team and just want it to be the game it should be. On a plus i saw that numbers are back in an interview (alao you can see numbers on the measuring gubbins now). Also hear there is a co-op / solo mode as well which I'm intrigued by. Would like to see how the dice work in that! As always i look forward to your videos. They're always entertaining. Nice to get your insight and perspective on this. Keep up the good work sir and happy gaming.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

So glad to see they've abandoned the silly number shapes, that's great. Oh, I forgot to mention solo-co-op. Thankyou for the very nice kind words, they're appreciated!

[@bolterboy]

Your redesigns look great!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Thanks! I wish I could make them available but GW probably wouldn't like it... 😆

[@raincoast_bear]

Hopefully, they will make enough to stock the retailers. 6 of the 7 last sets barely made it to the shops.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I know, it's crazy! I suspect it does have a lot to do with supply chain and production issues rather than anything purposeful on GW's part, but here's hoping they get better organised this season.

[@Jux925]

Good points. What about solo/coop rules? I am most looking forward to those.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

So sorry I forgot to mention those. I'll talk more about the rules when I have more info!

[@Reroll121]

The card (font/configuration) is a D&I motivated decision (as were the shapes) - they’ve stated that before. I hope they retain conceal/engagement. The upside outweighs the downside. There are no more shapes. Expect LoS/Obscurity to get overhauled. They’ve inferred as much. Love the terrain - diverse height and orientations, and suits the KT game very well.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You obviously have better sources than me! 🤣 (Spoiler: I have no particular sources)

[@Reroll121]

@@EsotericOrderGamers love your card system btw, people would pay for those

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Thanks, wish I could sell them! 🤣

[@omidtabrizi-e2z]

Hey I’m knew to this hobby and I was going to buy the veterans guard and orks starter set and the hulk map I was wondering if all that will be useless once this new map and models come out

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You'll still be able to use any model or terrain (if it has terrain; there were several starter sets for that edition) of course, but the rules and the stats for the teams will be useless IF you want to play the new edition rules (you can always play the old edition of course). However GW have promised to release the stats for all existing teams as free PDFs, so you can use those teams. Also you can use any map as a playing surface.

[@omidtabrizi-e2z]

@@EsotericOrderGamers thank you very much for answering my questions 👍🏻 I’m excited for kill team because me and my mates can play without dropping 1 k dollars

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@omidtabrizi-e2z Happy to answer any questions you have! 😆

[@CN_Edin]

It looks like they've done away with the awkward symbols for range. The new measuring sticks show inches in circles, makes me very happy. I have to agree on most everything you said about rules and in particular how badly the rules are written. The LoS chapter with cover etc is probably (top 5 at least) the worst written rules I've ever encountered during my 30 years of playing boardgames, roleplaying games and miniature wargames. It feels to me like they went out of their way to make sure we got a set of rules that could leave nothing to interpretation. What we got was a clunky and very, very wordy rules set. Oh, great vid btw, as usual =)

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I don't know how I missed that, but it's great news. Yeah, during our game the other night I had to sit down and puzzle out the LOS/cover rules yet again! You're absolutely right in what you say. And thanks!

[@CN_Edin]

@@EsotericOrderGamers I don't know if you've read the rules preview on Warhammer Community? The text box for the universal action "Reposition" is a prime example of why the Kill Teams rules drive me nuts. It feels like most of what's in that text box could be covered in the general rules for moving. For example: do we really need to be told that we can only move a miniature, sorry, operative to a location where it can actually be placed? Is that concept unique for the Reposition action? If it is we are in deep trouble

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@CN_Edin I'm more concerned that they've decided to call the 'move' action REPOSITION. I mean, that's just another example of unnecessary renaming that they seem obsessed with in this particular game. Just call it MOVE for gawd's sake! There seems to be a strange desire to change perfectly good 1 and 2 syllable naming conventions into 4 syllable words.

[@margaretwood152]

40K is quickly swooshing down the proverbial *_SH!TTER_* @ Lightning speed ( * WTF are they doing over there @ the GW design studio (?)

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

No doubt working hard on the NEXT edition! 🤣

[@Colorcrayons]

They screwed themselves by locking themselves into UGOIGO. Even Andy Chambers has gone on record lamenting how he didnt take advantage of not changing this fundamental design in the game, and how this was a major mistake. Now if thy want to change it, you are going to have an enormous amount of neckbeards rioting. But if they dont change it, then the game is on a clock whose lifespan can be counted in single digits. So here they are. And this is just for the turn structure! Really the only reason the game itself remains relevant, is because of the models. People play 40k so they can push the awesome dollies around the table, despite the horrible rules. Nobody gets out of bed excited to play 40K just for the rules, and if they do, then they have never played any other game in the history of ever to compare it to.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

​@@Colorcrayons I do think they'll change all these things eventually, and I even think they'll lose the To Wound step - GW just takes a lot longer to do things than everyone else because so much money is at stake. But since they had the courage to blow up the Old World and relaunch WFB as Age of Sigmar, I do think they're capable of changing old ingrained ways.

[@saltfreegamer]

Trying not to be too cynical, but this feels like an unnecessary edition change for the sake of selling more FOMO boxes. They're doing the same with Middle Earth SBG. I wish they could work out a sustainable business model that didn't involve a treadmill of new editions. I think a more stable rules system would keep more people in the hobby, instead of asking them every 3 years to buy back in. The Vespids look awesome though, hopefully I'll pick them up when they get their own kit.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

As frustrating as it is, it's been the GW business model for 40-odd years. New editions kick off new excitement and purchasing. If they stuck with one unchanged set of rules a game would stop making enough money. And, there's also the issue that game rules do keep evolving - especially in miniatures games. Check out Warhammer Fantasy Battle 1st edition and be thankful you're not playing it now! 🤣

[@saltfreegamer]

@@EsotericOrderGamers No question game design has evolved in the last 40 years. I've read some of those old GW rules! 🤣 On the other hand, MESBG is essentially the same as it was 20 years ago. I'll happily buy a new edition every decade or so!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Good point!

[@christophermorey2380]

Are you kidding??? The changes coming to Middle Earth sound amazing and are coming after years of almost no love or attention. I am happy that they are finally giving the game some love rather than just shut it down, with such a small player base.

[@saltfreegamer]

@@christophermorey2380 they will never willingly shut that game down. If they did, someone else would be able to pick up the license. We'll see how the changes play out. Changing the stat line breaks compatibility with all prev books, which is pretty disruptive, and doesn't sound like there will be a free PDF to smooth the transition. Hope it's worth it.

[@leosierras9643]

Just make Killteam more like Warcry, simple as. Great video!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Sounds good to me. 🤣

[@leosierras9643]

@EsotericOrderGamers honestly, the Warcry initiative roll that also gives you your abilities in the round is SO good, I have no idea why that isn't in more games.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It is very cool - you get special abilities, but you only have to give your attention to a subset of them each round.

[@MekBoooooi]

Ik so excited for co-op pve and solo play. My friend groups hombrewwd ruels for it where we faced an Ork invasion. My inly other wishes are if they bring Terminators & Crisis suits back and roster building.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I don't think building your own kill teams will come back, as they like the format of selling themed kill teams, but yes, the solo and co-op play should be interesting, and it may be something they introduce into their other games, given the popularity of solo play these days.

[@MrStratofish]

Although I'm lucky enough to have good eyesight, those tiny-print alternative cards you designed would alienate almost everybody I play with. I need to encourage people to play, not drive them away

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I wear reading glasses and I have no problems at all. That's what glasses are for!

[@bradp6452]

Reminds me a little of how they said for blood bowl second season edition that they update the rules of accessibility. Back in LRB 6 their was like 1 page of faqs which has noe gone to like 10 pages.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

There's a much better, faster version - Blitz Bowl!

[@m.e.3862]

The Turning Point… is a 1977 movie starring Anne Bancroft and Shirley MacLaine about ballet dancers. I had no idea GW were big fans of a movie about washed up ballerinas 🤪

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Could be the next big thing in tabletop war-games!

[@naitp]

I'm a rabid kill team enjoyer and agree with pretty much everything you just said. Love it but can't deny that the game is just too complex and lengthy for what it really sets out to do. One trend I'm noticing, however, is the newer teams including four or more basic warrior operatives with no special actions or unique abilities to speak of. I really expect that alone will tighten things up a bit, and who knows what else might be smoother in this new edition.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yes I noticed that with the Mandrakes - but the other 'operatives' were so complex it still didn't take a lot of the load off ...

[@aegrisomnia]

I lost 50 bucks to a friend on a bet of which unit would receive an update first. The tau vespids or the eldar fire dragons... We made that bet, i think 7 years ago... Somewhere around that. Man, i really thought GW would just disapear the vespids at some point. But as a tau player i'm very happy about the attention the auxillias received. The Kroot overhaul not too long ago and now the vespid. Maybe we'll even get some official gue'vessa models. Poor eldar aspect warriors though. Forgotten but not gone...

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

That's a pretty specific bet! 🤣 I've never understood why Elder don't get more love. Maybe Jess Goodwin refuses to let anyone change his (excellent) designs! 🤣

[@CommandPost]

Isn’t it third edition? KT21, what we have now, and then hivestorm is 3 by my count.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

This is where I got it from: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kill_Team_(Board_Game) (And KT21 is what we have now)

[@Griffonbait]

It is the 3rd box of the boxed-game series, but it is the 4th edition of the ruulebook, hence it is referred to as the 4th edition. 1st ed was just a book add-on to WH40K.

[@Colorcrayons]

@@Griffonbait yup, way back in 3rd ed. Then 4th ed got an actual mention in the rulebook itself. Honestly, still a better time than KT21 by a very wide margin.

[@yannparis7501]

I agree with everything you say. Regarding the complexity of the game... for me, that is part of the learning curve. And the fact that there is one is to the game's credit. Yes, it takes a few games to master a KT and start developing game reflexes. That's okay for me. Otherwise, the KTs from the Compendium (fewer types of figures, fewer rules) are easier to play than those from the boxes; they are perfect for beginners (and not necessarily less interesting, contrary to what I often read)

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I know it would be better if I played it more - the problem is there are so many good games to play so one game rarely gets consecutive weeks of table time!

[@JabbaTheHuff]

I would love the option, at least for home games, to play on “easy mode“. What I mean by that is a scaled back version of the game which includes the basic mechanics but nothing else. No equipment, no special abilities, just dudes on a map Fighting each other. This would make it easier to introduce people to the game in a piecemeal fashion. Then as you become more confident with the rules you can start paying the full fat version.

[@raincoast_bear]

Agreed. I would throw out the "ops" rules and bespoke teams.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You can actually drop the tac ops cards if you play 'open play' style, and there's nothing stopping you dropping strategic and tactical ploys too, I guess. But I agree, everything has to be simplified.

[@JabbaTheHuff]

@@EsotericOrderGamersmy concern would be that dropping bits and pieces may change the balance of the game. Like if Fellgor Ravagers are only viable if you use Tac Ops, or certain equipment. I suppose what I mean is having it modular in a sense so that playing with a decreased rules overhead doesn’t make one team more or less able to win.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yes, you're absolutely right.

[@noprobllama9747]

I just want to move some pieces around a 3d board, shoot some friends models. Not Bury my head in a rulebook all afternoon looking up unique rules for each model.

[@BigDaddyDirtHog]

If you havent tried it check out Warcry. We tried it because we got burnt out on KT and its rules. We havent gone back. Teach new players in the whole game in 5 minutes, way less brain load.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Amen to that my friend!

[@mikeadams3722]

Thanks, I always enjoy your videos and we share most of the same opinions. I skipped out on KT 2021, I just couldn't get past the stupid symbols (for the reasons you mention), the overloaded complexity (again, exactly as you describe), and the bizarre product design that made it difficult to actually buy into, but it sounds like they are addressing these things🤞. And I actually like the new terrain and both factions. I look forward to following more of your videos on the subject 🙂

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You're most welcome, and there will be more, definitely!

[@peterkeyes1814]

I love the idea of KT. Smaller units, shorter games and the possibility of progression etc but the amount of special rules and gotchas is worse than 40k . Bording actions is more fun. I 100% agree changing the name of everything including turns makes it worse. The overuse of the "Ops" word. The shapes. The reliance on abilities rather than having some meaningful differences in the stat lines. The LoS. I can't keep track of each my models ridiclous names let alone the enemy operative's names. Give me the class not some cringe GW gibberish. It just seems they pile on extra rules and bloat that slows everything down. I really try but as i think Necromunda is done better if you don't care about competitive balance ( except the 300 rule books).

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's funny isn't - reliance on special abilities really is a big thing in GW games. But I guess that's very common in all miniatures games, I mean how much meaningful difference can you get in the stat lines anyway?

[@peterkeyes1814]

​@@EsotericOrderGamers Yeah I follow, I should maybe have said weapon profile and stat line. I guess it depends on the type of game too. Coming from 2nd Ed Epic as my 1st love, older 40K and some historicals, without lots of special rules an assault unit verses a supporting fire unit verses a tanky unit plays differently and you get an idea at a glance what the unit does without needing to read 2 pages of rules. Nothing wrong with special rules for flavour but it seems for KT the units themselves are just vessels for a group of special rules. If I look at the game like this, it makes a lot more sense but it is also probably not so much for me. I love the minis though and with solo/coop rules in the new edition, I think i'll probably pick it up.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I'm definitely becoming a fan of just ONE special rule for each unit. That way you can have some flavour but lose the brainburning.

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

​@@EsotericOrderGamersI'd say that granularity of the stats is dependent on the dice system. GW being stuck on the D6 kinda forces them into a statistical corner, I reckon.

[@gorram]

It would take very little to write Kill Team better - it will take a lot to make me want to go back to it. That rule book still gives me nightmares, atrocious. The faction rules being free only is a big step though, much more new player friendly

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yes, it's very good to see GW getting more in the habit of releasing the unit stats for games.

[@capnbrunch9612]

I read solo and coop and that was enough for me.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I'm not a solo player, but I am interested if this will become a common feature of their games.

[@andylomerson2797]

I think GW is seeing the success(?) of Infinity (N4) and maybe trying to fill that niche of a super technical, detailed rules with many layers game. I love Infinity and the AOR system (and the minis kick ass) but I stoped playing because it is just rules overload. I hear good things about Code One tho. Ever play? I’m a knight in the order, any chance your kill team redesigned cards are available?!? Keep up the great content my man.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Hello Sir Knight! For those who don't know, a Knight of the Esoteric Order is a very special supporter rank on my Patreon channel. They're the people who make this all possible! Maybe, but then there's a lot of talk about fast and furious too - they can't have it both ways! I tried Infinity once and didn't enjoy it (we made a terrible battle report where we got the rules wrong - the rulebook was very bad at the time) and I'm not enamoured of the style of the minis, but I know a lot of people rate it very highly. Hadn't heard of Code One, I'll check it out. I would love to make all the redesigned cards I've done for many GW games available, but sadly GW lawyers would descend on me like a tonne of bricks. 🧱

[@andylomerson2797]

That’s totally fair. I understand that you can’t just share all the stats. You’ve just made some good looking and super functional stuff! Which is obviously your MO. What would you think about sharing a template with your formats and just some Lorem ipsum? I’d love to take a stab at making some for my own team. Totally no hard feelings if the answer is “not this time”, Peter!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@andylomerson2797 Do you have Adobe inDesign?

[@andylomerson2797]

I DO have InDesign! (They got me with a cloud subscription with PSD & Illustrator). I can shoot you an email thru Patreon?

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@andylomerson2797 Of course Andy.

[@DojoPaints]

That’s why space hulk is the perfect game

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

My collection of about 1000 games seems to say otherwise 🤣 though yes, Space Hulk is a classic.

[@DojoPaints]

@@EsotericOrderGamers among the independent Warhammer games GW, SpaceHulk is awesome. But I’d doesn’t sale more miniatures that’s why it’s out of print, same with Mordheim. I already pre-Pre order the new kill team box fingers crossed 🤞 it’s awesome. Got the new Nexromunda but I haven’t got a chance to play.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I hate to quibble, but while I agree with you that Space Hulk is pretty much a closed system (though I remember a lot of White Dwarf expansions for it way back when they released 1st edition that used different models), Mordheim is wide open - though I would say it's not being brought back because Warcry fills the fantasy skirmish niche for GW now.

[@DojoPaints]

@@EsotericOrderGamers yeah, totally agree, I have all four expansions from Space hulk, and who doesn’t love Mordheim. Cursed City Mehh but the miniatures Wow. Love your channel. Keep it up.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I will (hey, I'm 12 years in now) - and thanks!

[@sevencoloredmage8726]

They won't use improvements from the new AoS4 rules wording, GW's departments actively don't share anything between each other.

[@bauguilhugo9037]

They will from 40k V10 for sure, at least on the Core Rules as they said

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Oh that's good news. I hope they go full on colour-coding ability style too.

[@bauguilhugo9037]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Hope so too it's wonderfull !

[@THX-to6gg]

Nice minis but KT 2021 is not for me I prefer the 2018 version and sometimes the Heralds of Ruin version of the original 2014 KT.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You have very specific tastes and that's perfectly fine - enjoy! 😆 I had a terrible experience with the 2018 version - one really unbalanced game and I never played it again!

[@THX-to6gg]

@@EsotericOrderGamers each to their own that’s the beauty of gaming.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Absolutely!

[@donovanattano3898]

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

There's always one 🤣

[@donovanattano3898]

@@EsotericOrderGamers indeed

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

💀💀💀

[@kageroux1193]

They are getting rid of shapes at least.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

They are? THEY ARE? YOU'RE RIGHT! I just looked more closely at the measuring gauge and there are no shapes on it. HALLELUJAH!

[@kageroux1193]

@@EsotericOrderGamers 🤣

[@RobOngrui]

I loved KT21 when it came out. The compendium teams were easily understandable and mostly straight forward. When they started introducing the bespoke teams, i started to lose interest, as the overhead is just too much and I HATE having those "gotcha" moments when playing against a team that I dont know by heart.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yes, that kind of thing rewards repeated play, which is fine, but we all don't necessarily have the time to 'get to know' our own teams and our opponent's teams like that.

[@DodgethisCZ]

Isnt this 3rd edition?

[@waynehood8836]

4th. 1st was small box release with marines v tau, 2nd GSC v Ad Mech with similar ruleset to standard 40K, then 3rd launched with orks v guard and the symbols for ranges

[@DodgethisCZ]

@@waynehood8836 interesting

[@christophermorey2380]

Isn't this only third edition??? 2018, 2021 and now 2024....

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kill_Team_(Board_Game)

[@christophermorey2380]

@@EsotericOrderGamers The "1st Edition" listed there is a stand alone board game. 2 set teams, 1 board, no terrain, no varying missions. It was not the Kill Team game that it exists now. 2018 was the 1st Edition of Kill Team format, with a customizable format and changing missions etc. The coming release is widely acknowledged as the 3rd Edition.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@christophermorey2380 Oh well! I just went off what I googled. 🤣

[@andyshaw5378]

At the end of the day GW makes amazing minis but write terrible rules. Buy the minis use someone else’s rules 👍🏻

[@simonbergeron2520]

Id say they make great rules but just badly written ahahhaha

[@kudosbudo]

genuinely thought i was playing 2nd edition killteam ha

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Hard to keep track isn't it? They go by so fast ...

[@AIRmax123456]

why gw takes out compendium kill teams

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Because the Compendium was released about 3 years ago and GW constantly update their games. I think most if not all of the old teams will be updated and released online for free however.

[@mattnutter8943]

You should play Deadzone 😊

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I do play Deadzone kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5TUoH6jh8emhJo

[@TerryGXD]

his isn't fourth edition its third

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kill_Team_(Board_Game)

[@Griffonbait]

It is the 3rd box of the boxed-game series, but it is the 4th edition of the rulebook, hence it is referred to as the 4th edition. 1st ed was just a book add-on to WH40K.

[@ayonmetar2301]

So happy I am not the only one who finds Kill Team unfortunately clunky in many ways. I love Warcry and thought "maybe Kill Team is fun too"... I couldn't even finish the guide videos. Both the rules and terminology seem unnecessarily contrived. "Turning Points", symbols for range, overcomplicated cover rules, too many tokens on the table, ablity bloat and so on and so forth. I really want to like Kill Team (mostly because it has a relatively big player base compared to Warcry, due to 40k being more popular than AoS) and hope the new edition gets rid of more than just the range symbols. After the very fluent and just fun based Warcry play style, current Kill Team feels sluggish to me. (All of the above is of course just my subjective opinion. Don't get triggered, Kill Team fans)

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Me too. Though I'm absolutely horrified they've decided to call the Move action 'Reposition'. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!

[@ayonmetar2301]

@@EsotericOrderGamers No idea. I hope that is still subject to change... Renaming the most basic action that all tabletop games ever created share to make it sound like a big deal would be beyond unnecessary and stupid.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Nope, we're stuck with it now. It's the dumbest decision GW has made in years. 🤣 And it means they're saying things like "Reposition towards the nearest enemy operative." I mean - splutter - WHAT??

[@ayonmetar2301]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Wow ... the good old "two steps forward > one step backward > stumble > faceplant"-approach to rule design. Pretty sure this will be the first thing they revert in 3 years with the next edition ^^'

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I think we can all put money on that.

[@RundOnline]

Still on about the measurement? Lol

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Get back to me when you find that joke you’re looking for 😆

[@DeanError]

Written so it takes all your time and money so you either only play it or get frustrated buy more models and play 40k instead. GW it's a hobby , model company and way of life, forget wargame company.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I'm sorry mate, I know you're having a bad day because you've left 2 grumpy comments on 2 videos now - we all have them. But this is just bollocks. 🤣 Despite the sometimes very annoying commercial practices of GW, Kill Team is a great game on the whole, and with a few teams you can get many, many hours of enjoyment out of it. Or proxy other models and use old rules - you can stick with version 2 or 3 forever if you want, no one is forcing you to get everything and stay updated with the latest thing. Games last forever as long as you play them.

[@DeanError]

​@@EsotericOrderGamers enjoy your channel keep up the good work. Ps not having a bad day. PS agree on epic 40,000 being a great game.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Glad to hear it! 🤣 Epic is a classic, I agree.

[@Colorcrayons]

I love the models, as one should from Citadel, but I cant get with the game design. Mostly because I am shoehorned into what i want to play in my killteam. In fact, no matter how good the overall design is, this squad building (or rather lack thereof) is just the absolutely boundary I refuse to allow to be crossed. I value creativity, especially when we spend so much of our valuable time building dollies we like. This is why I would certainly buy this box, but the rules may as well just not bothered to be printed and save a couple trees. Mini agnostic rules are better.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's horses for courses - I actually like my teams being pre-built, it's faster and easier for me. But I completely understand people wanting the flexibility.

[@volcano3493]

It sounds you would rather play Stargrave. And yes, Stargrave is vastly superior than the soulless skirmish attempt which is Kill-Team.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's good, but it has quite a different feel, and the D20 system makes it much more swingy.

[@Colorcrayons]

@@volcano3493 Stargrave is fine. Though I prefer frostgrave if I am using that system. For sci-fi skirmish, I think deadzone is a pretty good and very underrated system. I am a warcry player, and deadzone scratches that same 'ease of play' itch that I wished Killteam had.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Definitely, Deadzone is excellent! But ... the models aren't that great.

[@DotJus]

You sound Australian.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Do I!?? Must be something to do with the fact I was born there and spent the first 47 years of my life there! 🤣

[@GoldBawls]

….you know you don’t Have to play this, right? Nobody will force you. Just have a nap and a good cry, you’ll feel better.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Oh, thankyou so much for your wonderfully patronising comment, I do hope it improved your day and you can continue safe in the knowledge that you're very very clever. PFFFTT!! 🤣

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Ahh, I guarantee that that reply made you feel better than any nap, Peter! 🤣😈

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons 🤣

[@WarLore]

this sounds like a bit of a disappointment

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

This is all chatty speculation - everything might be fixed in the new edition, who knows!

[@tims5298]

The first was in 4th or 5th ed rule book then the tau vs ravenguard box the the city then the ork vs imp guard now this one so this new is 5th edition not 4th

[@captaincosmo6157]

40k 4th edition, lumped in with combat patrol as a game mode and campaigna as a game mode. I Actually think it might be older than that, and originally have been a white dwarf article that they reprinted in the 4th edition rulebook. Combat patrol certainly was. It was originally called 40k in 40 minutes.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yes, it was in White Dwarf first - but as I mentioned, it's a pretty arbitrary label depending on your definition. 😆