KingdomCraft: Why does God allow evil?

[@sk00k]

Free will simply means that we are free to act according to our own natures. We won't sin in heaven because our natures will be different.

[@yxtqwf]

Why were we created with, or allowed to develop, a sinful nature?

[@LoganS.R.]

​@@yxtqwfWe weren't. God created us with free will so we could love Him truly, but free will also means sin. The forbidden fruit gave us our sinful nature.

[@yxtqwf]

@@LoganS.R. If humanity only got its sinful nature after eating the forbidden fruit, what caused Adam and Eve to commit the original sin and eat the fruit in the first place?

[@LoganS.R.]

@@yxtqwf Free will

[@LoganS.R.]

Also the serpent's deception

[@Clark-07]

Growing up I was taught that one reason why God allows evil to exist is to let it run its full course. In other words, God wants to show all of His creation the consequences of sin, not out of spite but out of love. He wants us to realize why sin is such a bad thing so he lets it run rampant throughout the world to prove how terrible its effects truly are. And this is why we won't sin in heaven: because we won't want to. We would have already witnessed the outcome of doing so, so we choose not to even though we still technically have free will to do so in heaven.

[@evangreen23]

In all love, this is not true. I know u are not exactly saying it is. However, is this was true would not sin cease to exist already? We can look at all of human history and see how bad it is, yet I still desire to sin. Our nature be must be made new.

[@townertrading]

The origin of evil is one of my biggest problems with predestination and an absence of free will. Now obviously God allows some evil, but the phrase 'allowing evil' implies the pre-existence of evil as a force. For example, in the book of Job, God allows all of Job's calamities because there is a force that of evil that is present and desiring for evil to occur (Satan in that case) and God knows that in the end, the evil he allows to Job will glorify Him. Sure, I'm on board with that. But take the case of the first sin: Lucifer's pride and rebellion. Where did his pride come from? It didn't magically appear there and it couldn't merely have been allowed by God (since if it was allowed and not directly created then that means that evil pre-existed creation and is greater than or equal to God which is of course impossible). So the only two explanations we're left with are 1) the pride being a free will choice and that angels and humans are created with free will to choose good or evil, or 2) Lucifer's sin being created, controlled, and directed by God. I don't believe the latter to be possible; it is not in God's nature to create anything but good and perfect. Don't get me wrong, I have a plethora of problems and inconsistencies with Arminianism and free will, but I unfortunately seem to run into even more with predestination, especially ones that circle back to this central theme.

[@looc546]

evil is not an active force. we cannot (for our own spiritual health) conscience a world with independent devils. splitting the world in half is asking for trouble. we cannot believe we are in a war against demonic forces or at the mercy of random circumstance. nothing happens that is not an expression of god's will. this means we are free to affirm the world in its entirety, bear witness to suffering, and seek to alleviate it. we are free to acknowledge sin as the source of evil and suffering. acknowledging the imperfection of the kingdom on earth is the first step toward the kingdom of heaven. there is evil in the world, but is it something god could eliminate and chooses not to? nothing happens that is not an expression of god's will. the operation of free will exists within constraints set by god, who has created all things down to their natures, but reserves nature the right to play itself out in teeth and blood and rot and soil. nature does not sin, it is not conscious enough to do so, but it is capable of evil, and what evil exists exists at his discretion. discretion is not the same as creation or control. god would permit no more evil than is necessary. if something is necessary it must exist in the world, god cannot do without it. we can imagine that some circumstances of nature are only possible, allowing for differences, we can't imagine god is very invested on a moral basis in the coloration of the coats of deer and rabbit and wolves, we would not reduce god's will to aesthetics. nature plays itself out with relatively little divine intervention. violence, as one example of evil, must be necessary in some proportion in god's creation. god creates things, he creates the circumstances for any one thing's existence, but as circumstances play themselves out, some things are necessary and others are just possible. the violence of nature is its own original sin. it is necessary for humanity to fulfill the role god has for us, meaning it exists not only according to its own nature, but according to His. violence is in god's nature. god has his own capacity for violence. god does violence through nature. he not only watches carnivores eat, but allows or directs natural disasters. god plans for himself to die. he is born as one of us and dies for us. it is his experience of abject violence which liberates us. god subjects himself to humanity at a particular time and place, runs himself through a cycle of our violence, puts himself within nature instead of above it, in the meantime experiences the temptation to sin, a temptation which exists at his discretion, and will return from the dead to bring us to sanctity, to count our sins and our suffering and our alleviations. eventually, some time after we die, we will live sinless in the kingdom of heaven forever. in jesus' death, god forgives himself for the evil he lets live. in the meantime, the world cannot be fallen. believers cannot (for our own spiritual health) conscience a world that is given to destruction, death, and decay, dog eating dog. evil is destructive. what is good is constructive. we have faith in eternal life, which immunizes us from to dying before we're even buried. never despair in god's creations. whatever is was supposed to be. don't bother trying to redirect the tides. build a boat.

[@theintelligentmilkjug944]

I don't see the problem with evil existing since forever. It doesn't make evil necessarily equal or greater than God because a consistent good (God) is always greater than evil.

[@townertrading]

@@theintelligentmilkjug944 If evil existed forever and God did not specifically create it, then like God, evil is a necessary force and therefore _must_ exist. The eternity of evil isn't really a Christian idea and leans closer to the realm of Manichaeism (I'm not calling you a Manichaein, brother! Just critiquing your position). Eternal evil and an omnipotent good God simply cannot coexist, especially in a deterministic framework as I was previously pointing out.

[@theintelligentmilkjug944]

@@townertrading Well admittedly it's not an traditional Christian idea, but as long as evil is removed for all who are saved. Eternal evil and an omnipotent God can co-exist as long as God has a reason to allow evil to be eternal (which I think he does because without evil goods that come from evil cannot exist without paradoxes.)

[@jackdullboy8723]

Evil doesn't exist. It's a lack of God's good.

[@jaysmagata3707]

I liked that about heat and light. You can't have something like that without something to compare it to. You say something is cold, but you can't say that without having something hot to compare it to.

[@gnhman1878]

In my opinion, these are the reasons why God allows evil to exist and happen: -If God just got rid of evil and made everyone good and perfect, then we wouldn't have any free will. God would violate our free will had He made everyone good and perfect and got rid of evil. If we do not have any free will, we wouldn't be any different from robots that are programmed to obey their masters no matter what. God wants us to have a free will and have the capability and ability to either do good or do evil, to either accept Him or reject Him. -Through evil, God can show His grace and mercy. If evil/sin does not exist, then God wouldn't be able to show His grace and mercy and forgiveness, and Jesus wouldn't need to die on the cross if evil/sin does not exist. The existence of evil/sin allows God to show and display His merciful and graceful characteristics. Throughout The Bible, we see God forgiving bad people who do not deserve His forgiveness. In Genesis, when Cain murdered Abel, God forgave Cain and did not strike him dead. In the Book of Samuel, when David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her husband, God did not strike David dead even though He was supposed to do it. If evil/sin does not exist, how can God show His grace and mercy? -Through evil, God can show and display His justice, wrath and glory, one of His characteristics that makes Him a good god. Throughout The Bible, we see God punishing and judging evil using His amazing powers, glorifying Himself. Like, in Exodus, God brought forth plagues upon Egypt, and in Revelation, we see how God would punish unbelievers and punish those who repent not of their sin and those who persecute His followers. If evil/sin does not exist, how can God show and display His justice, wrath and glory? If the bad guys do not exist in an action movie, how could the hero show his justice and his power, and it wouldn't even be an action movie! -God sometimes uses evil to bring a greater good, and we see this throughout The Bible. In the Book of Genesis, if Joseph wasn't sold by his brothers, he wouldn't become a powerful leader in Egypt, and he wouldn't be able to save many people, including his family, from a deadly famine. In the gospels, if Jesus was not betrayed by Judas, was not accused by the Pharisees and Jewish leaders, and was not crucified by Pilate, then we wouldn't be saved and wouldn't be reconciled to God. God uses evil for His plans and His purposes.

[@charles21137]

Because it is necessary and serves a function, doesn’t that mean evil is good? That’s the problem with people who want to explain evil, they pull out something like dualism(which explains evil by saying it is necessary for the universe to work), or by saying it serves a purpose, but if it is necessary and serves a purpose, that means it is good. The problem with trying to find the answer to the “problem of evil”, is that, to do so, you must twist evil into something good(opposite of evil), because the only way to justify evil, is by making it not evil. That’s my answer to the problem of evil, I can’t find a way to justify evil, that’s literally why it’s called evil.

[@acethemain7776]

in heaven we will have free will, but because we will be rid of sin, only the rational part of our minds exist ig, which means that even though we possible could sin, we wouldn't want to, or at least that's my theory as a novice theology dude

[@beerboots]

'The rational part of our minds' is very vague and abstract. Choosing to sin or not to sin is typically a product of a 'rationalising' process. If we are not rational creatures, how can we be held responsible for making irrational choices? Just accept the contradiction surrounding free will and heaven and use that contradiction as a means to question and investigate the validity of what you believe rather than doubling down on self-indoctrination as Christians so love to do. Consider the possibility that it doesn't make sense because the whole underlying premise of Christianity is not true. Once you begin thinking with a truly open and critical mind, your ideas will become more 'rational'.

[@bigwinz]

​@@beerboots I'd encourage you to open your mind a little more. There is no contradiction between free will and heaven. Who would want to sin in the physical presence of God? There would be no reason to, you'd probably even be too afraid to. Once you quit doubling down on dogma, as atheists so love to do, you can open your mind to the realization that a loving God is the only explanation for the universe and life itself.

[@gigahorse1475]

@@beerbootsActually, true rationality would know not to sin because it is rational to choose God above sin. It’s not rationality that caused us to sin but our flesh… our emotions, temptations, and our feelings.

[@beerboots]

@@gigahorse1475 So as one who understands what is truly rational, I'm sure you no longer commit sin? If you do commit sin, why? Is it a kneejerk, robotic reaction to stimuli? Or do you weigh up the pros/cons and make a choice, thus constituting a rationalisation? Emotions, temptations and feelings are precisely what we use to rationalize our own behaviours. All actions follow some sort of rationalisation, either consciously or unconsciously. Example 1. My arm feels slightly uncomfortable. I don't think about it, but unconsciously move my arm. Why? To achieve greater comfort. Rationalisation. Example 2. My arm feels extremely uncomfortable as I am holding it over a campfire for too long. I do think about it, 'fuck that hurts'. I consciously move my arm. Why? To achieve greater comfort. Rationalisation.

[@beerboots]

@@bigwinz Here is the contradiction between free will and heaven. If there is no sin in heaven, then we are acting on a predetermined programming and are essentially without free will. If we have no desire to sin, then we are not demonstrating a rejection of sin. We are simply made perfect, as we could have been to begin with. We are the perfect robot companions. As to your question regarding who would want to sin in the presence of God, well... Lucifer and all the angels who were cast out of heaven (God's presence) with him. If they can do it, I'm sure humans can too. If we're not sinning because we're too afraid to, does that sound like a genuine, healthy relationship to you? Sounds like abusive, coercive control, where the abused party feigns a smile and cooperates because they have to. How wonderful. How about you match your accusation of dogma with an example of where I have been dogmatic? Cheers.

[@Cinderella121]

I love how this video doesn’t discuss natural evils

[@cormundum_o]

The issue about Arminianism and just the idea of free will in general isn’t logical. Humans desire to sin, we are born into sin. Paul said that his flesh wants to do what he doesn’t want to, and he wants to do what his flesh doesn’t. If humans had the choice to choose such things, the world would be absolute chaos. It is simply the mind that God gave us that keeps at least some level of morality and sense in this world. As you can see the lower the amounts of true christians, the more we get drag queens and the leftist cult. Secondly, I have not seen anywhere in the Bible where God had a plan and he gave someone the choice to follow through with it. When God has a plan it always happens. A good example is with Jonah. God didn’t give him the option to go to Nineveh or not, God made him do it. He tried running away but God wouldn’t let him. Third, there have been very few examples people have given me to support free will. The only time someone was actually smart about it was the other day, and I’m sure it was simply because I’m not a theologian. There are almost entire chapters dedicated to predestination but almost nothing supporting free will. Feel free to comment if you disagree, I am simply stating what I have observed and experienced.

[@derrickjohnson4952]

Could we say that “thou shalt not kill” includes slavery, we are killing our fellow man’s humanity after all.

[@lukaspersson4051]

Romans 8:5-8: Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. So if you can either live according to your sinful nature or according to Gods law then you have free will to choose what you will live according to

[@theswiftzephyr9464]

Why do you automatically assume free will necessarily involves a choice between good and evil, and that because of this, it cannot be present in the eschaton? This is a false dialectic. In the eschaton we will have free will, just like we do now, because we will be able to choose freely from multiple goods as St Maximus the Confessor talks about during the time of the 6th Ecumenical Council. In regard to evil, sin and evil are simply moving your own personal will contrary to/against the will of God, which does not make sense in a Calvinist worldview where there is no free will because, as you said, evil/sin has no ontological existence; it is merely a privation/departure from the good. In a reality where we have no free will, we cannot choose to either will the good or will evil, thus we cannot sin/commit evil. If we commit evil, we would simply be following the will of God, and this would be willing for the good. So that necessarily means God must be the author of evil, and not just evil in the sense of calamities or misfortune like in Isaiah 45:7, but actual evil/sin. This is the logically consistent conclusion to accepting that view of evil.

[@Snidbert]

Humans don't really have free will, they were just created by God for a purpose, and part of that purpose was for them to do evil. But God totally doesn't cause evil, bro.

[@evancolby2274]

This isn't a satisfying answer. The idea that God could stop people from suffering and dying but doesn't because He wants the satisfaction of destroying all evil later makes Him sound like a psychopath.

[@paul_particularlyunhappynut]

Well, he stated at the beginning of the video it wouldn't be all-satisfying.

[@delicheese6774]

The Torah treats the unborn as property, where do you get this anti-abortion position from?

[@tonbears]

Commit yourself to Jesus Christ, king of kings Lord of lords, not a denomination.