KISS Tuning - HIGH vs low PIDs | PUSH IT!!

[@josefdahari]

I don't know if anyone is complaining but I sure as hell am loving this content.

[@bkfpv]

Most important advice ever «Listen to your quad». Thank you so much for the KISS videos Mark.

[@tehllama42]

Probably still worth the quick/easy video to remind people that the specific set of test flight maneuvers you do is intended to push the limits of the quad and improve the edges, and that pilots can fly around the areas where the performance limits show up in the HD feed (and most good pilots do) - this just expands the envelope of how hard they can push.

[@chinobitamor4303]

Showing the components you used explains a lot to me. Too bad "you don't know how to tune" LOL that got me. Thanks for this, Mark.

[@maposcha]

Really appreciate the KISS content!

[@ProjectMockingbird]

Yeah, if I listened to people about my "crazy numbers" in betaflight on Whoops back in the day when I first started, hahaha...

[@uavtech]

EXACTLY!!

[@jlarson42]

Love your content, appreciate the kiss videos. Thanks.

[@flow-fpv7781]

mate your content is of top quality, complaints are a given you cant please every one. But most importantly facts put the matter to rest and this is what you do well!!! I have learnt so much from your content and you have steered me well away from all the hype products. I have now settled with a budget race quad that cost $270 USD to build and it halls arse and is super reliable.

[@chrishiggins7475]

Yet again great content Marc. the kiss rig still has throbbles that's just one reason why I fly my Bf rig more.

[@volkergoe]

First ;-).. and thanks for the condensed format!

[@BM-dn7ku]

I really would wanna see the person that said Mark Spatz can't tune. Lol what an intro, have only respect for your work. Can only be a comment from a BOT.

[@PropagndaX]

F**k it, Drop the 4hr video 🙏🏽😂

[@majedq8ii]

You are the best bro 🌹

[@BaskenFPV]

Very good film....again

[@FailsafeFPV]

Great Video Mark! What is the first thing you would do when tuning kiss? Obviously I know the principles of pid tuning, but what steps would you take to tune it from stock pids? Thanks for the awesome content :)

[@uavtech]

I would 1. set Setpoint Weight to 100% and tune in PD balance (flips, rolls and sharp inputs). 2. From there raise P and D gains till motors got hot or other bad stuff happened. 3. Finally, adjust i-Term to be as low as you can, but not have drift when 100% throttle.punch and chop. Hopefully filters on High (default) works for your quad.

[@FailsafeFPV]

@@uavtech @UAV Tech cheers! I will do that, I'd imagine that I can push them both quite far as I've got an apex frame, should be interesting 😃. In terms of pitch and roll, should I keep them both the same? Thanks

[@uavtech]

To take it to 100%, look at roll and pitch independently. The PD Ratio should be a little lower on pitch vs. roll. (P/D = Ratio) . However, P and D Gain strength should turn out to be able to be little higher on pitch. Probably 5 to 10 D-term points. Of course as you move up P and D gains, you hold the Ratio you found in the previous step.

[@FailsafeFPV]

@@uavtech Great thanks. I usually fly with the dterm setpoint weight set to 80, should I tune with 80 or go to 100 and tune with that?

[@uavtech]

I would.

[@jinxfpv6637]

I do like my KISS quad but cannot seem to tune out the bounceback on pitch. I will try your advice on tuning with setpoint at 100 and go from there, as well as switch from dshot 2400 to 600 because I have had some MAJOR random wig-outs after flips. Also, it's amazing how combative people get over your arguments against KISS. Honestly I don't know why you bother responding to them, they made up their minds already.

[@uavtech]

For KISS, you need to have i-gain as low as possible without having too much drift. It is a hard balance, but my best advice on it.

[@Perforator2000]

What is that weird yaw jitter in the first few seconds of flight around 12:05 ? It happens once and then just goes away for the rest of the flight.

[@robinfpv4858]

A video response. This is the way

[@zlachannel8674]

sometimes people think more expensive is the best, but i guess the firmware is all relative is the same direction,,but the best of mark doing is provide us more option which is more suitable for our capability across nation BF is still the best firmware because it is hit the more wide option for the user

[@TweakRacer]

Speaking of noise, just noticed that there is a high pitched tone in the background of the audio in this video.

[@uavtech]

PC fan.

[@maurozanoni4793]

Hi, could you help me, I tried 3 Kiss V2 and they all make me the same fault I probably can't tune the PIDs well. When I get off at about half-trottle everything wobbles it seems to me on the axis of the yaw I repeat all 3, more or less. Can you give me some advice? Hi Mauro.

[@uavtech]

Flash Betaflight to it: kzbin.info0imE8n4gi2s?feature=share Otherwise, lower i-Gains, but it is hard to find the good balance with KISS on i-Term. You need enough i-Gain to not drift when you chop throttle, but too much and it will most likely have bounceback. But if you are dropping throttle and getting wobble, reduce i-Gains.

[@maurozanoni4793]

Thanks for the answer I can tell you. By

[@maximusimany4275]

Why most of people fly beta flight ask your self before going and spending all that money on kiss. For the record you are the best tuner out there don’t lesson to haters I know exactly why you not fan of kiss same here.

[@MCsCreations]

Pretty interesting indeed, Mark! 😃 But I totally agree, different quads always needed different tunes... Copy someone else's tune and you're going to have issues. Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@skystudiofilm]

Do you have any tips on my KISS FC V2 when I do full throttle my quad Yaw spins a lot. Trying to fix it for ages ;/

[@uavtech]

1. Make sure you are not adding yaw yourself inadvertently. 2. Increase filtering on Yaw. 3. Increase i-gain on Yaw.

[@skystudiofilm]

@@uavtech Thanks for a quick replay. Im gonna play with it tomorrow. I've heard that new ULTRAS has this problem solved I might consider that rare item if Im lucky :D

[@feazazera8443]

how can i get the blackbox on the fettec kiss?

[@uavtech]

External logging device: Open Lagger

[@Dorkyand40]

After years and years I finally built a kiss ship and yeah it’s nothing spectacular. Simpler due to less features as you said. You really miss some of that help betaflight has brought us over the years that’s for sure.

[@uavtech]

Alex is a great guy, but I don't get it personally.

[@brianwhite8523]

Great stuff! The thing is KISS users rarely see any real analysis of the firmware. It’s a good reality check. Hopefully F1 users will have a thick skin when you compare that one lol

[@TheTomJon]

Soooo dum question... but how would you suggest getting blackbox data on a KISS quad...?

[@uavtech]

Flash Betaflight. KISS logging is not very useful. You can hook up an OpenLager, but the data not maintained. Meaning, you get some garbage traces that are KEY to logging in the first place. Like Setpoint (your ticks). That trace is useless. You can see for other stuff, like P, I, D and gyro. But without a target (Setpoint) you can't use to tune. I have it on Alex's radar, but I'm not sure he cares to fix it; which is a shame when you are paying 3x the cost for a KISS FC that not all the features even work right.

[@michaelstewart7662]

Just an opinion, those are the highest pids I’ve ever seen (on someone’s kiss rig)haha. Like you said if it flies it flies.

[@uavtech]

Whelp, it is the highest you can go on D-term. So that makes sense. But one of Mr Steels tunes has 23 for D, so, yeah. I'm not sure why the 30 limit is so low honestly. That limit should probably be 40 it 50. Wonder how it would fly on 35? With a low D-term limit, it really makes KISS only ok for 5" or lower as bigger quads generally require higher PIDS. A 6" to 10" would start at 30Ds on KISS.

[@mouseFPV]

I feel like the fundamentals of a tune are "get D as high as you can without the problems it can cause and have the proper relationship between P and D." Anything else is people who fly too fast of rates or not enough expo in rates so they try to add expo to the pids, which is the wrong tool for the job..... shoudlnt matter the firmware, thats how you tune a quad....

[@michaelstewart7662]

@@uavtech yeah there aren’t too many bigger quads running kiss due to the tunability, people have done it successfully but I feel like 3-5” is really their niche

[@DriftaholiC]

What are the yaw twitches about? Mine started doing this when I tried 24k pwm. Had to go back to 48k

[@uavtech]

Noise i guess. I only noticed on take-off. It might also be because of not RC filtering though in KISS. I would have to vet it out to see what's what.

[@uavtech]

No yaw twitches in BF though you may note: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4e1c5p6aNiHqZo

[@m4g4r4c]

👍

[@talongenxr7799]

BF just has more tools in the shed like you said, Kiss just needs to evolve, or let the fettec devs fork some code. It's about like taking a gaming rig today and installing windows vista 64 on it or something. Flight one evolved right? Yet they didn't figure out how to manufacture inventory or reply to customer emails.

[@uavtech]

So true with F1 inventory, so crazy they don't focus 110% of their efforts toward solving inventory issues which are constant.

[@borgonianevolution]

Actually KISS is who everyone else copies most times. They just do all the fancy stuff under the hood. No need to have all the bells and whistles and fad of the moment add ons to make their stuff look better if you are still top of the food chain. And yes I fly both I just turn all the extra stuff off on Beta Flight and tune like normal. Both have a different feel but I can get my stuff to fly equally as good on both.

[@uavtech]

@@borgonianevolution , I'm not seeing any under the hood goodness though. What are we missing?? The throbbles with KISS are on everything you see for example. Go pump the throttle on ypur KISS rig. The i-Term winds up and there is no way to really track your stick right for racing. There is not way to lock out i-term for big quads, nor can you move up gains enough for big quads (30 D-gainis the limit, that would be the start for big quads (7" thru 10").

[@borgonianevolution]

@@uavtech Did you soft mount anything? The filtering KISS developed and everyone else based their stuff from are set already in the software. KISS specifically tells you to NOT soft mount anything so these filters actually work as intended. As for racing.. I have not competed as no one where I live flys. But take a look at my page for anything to do with TAZ. even the channel video for non subscribes is a Taz run when you first open the page. Thats one of my KISS quads when I was in the process of final tuning.

[@uavtech]

No softmounts. And that is 100% false. You can see how added the first lowpass filters to Cleanflight back in the day. Also no lowpass cares if you soft or hard mount, that just not how the math works. The logic of no soft mounting advice is they want the vibes to be as high frequency as possible, which makes sense. That said, i have not see that soft mounts change that either. So i think that is a wives tale with no data behind it (that softmounts are bad). Unless you know of a data source I can review?

[@marccretten]

How does a person get one to one with the sticks?

[@uavtech]

One to one?

[@marccretten]

@@uavtech 6:00 mark in the vid, stick tracking i think it was called. Im flying a 3inch whoop and find the Quad seems to be behind the stick movements if that makes sense. Tried low D and it felt better but not quite there at all. Odly enough level mode feels amazing but cant do much with that mode.

[@uavtech]

@@marccretten crank up Feed Forward.

[@marccretten]

@@uavtech No feed forward in KISS GUI. Only set point i think i saw. By default its 100

[@uavtech]

That's all you can do then with KISS. :-/

[@Perforator2000]

Bring on the 4 hour videos.

[@Jefftopgun]

Came here to say this, im in for the 4 hour vids

[@doc_fu]

Both flights looks bad to me. Propwash on both. Twitches on 2nd. Throttle up leads to yawy rotations... I had very similar scenario with Armattan Marmotte frames :) Switched my kiss stack fo tbs source v3 and it flies like a dream now :) But.. kiss does not like damaged props at all. BF can figh that back, but kiss is just no go.

[@uavtech]

So BF is better?

[@doc_fu]

@@uavtech :) I hate to say that.. Would be interesting to see that kind of test. Like bending/choping props and playtesting bf vs kiss with no retune of pids. I bet bf will do a better job.

[@BikeGuyFPV]

BF beats KISS hands down for bent prop performance. Used to use KISS for racing for a year and a half. One clip of a gate resulting in a bent or damaged prop KISS freaks the hell out. BF on the other hand is like "whatever, bring it on, let's go and finish this race."

[@doc_fu]

@@BikeGuyFPV yep.. im a bando guy.. so kiss and bando.. does not play very well :)

[@technotaubsi]

@@doc_fu why? What's happening with kiss in bandos?

[@SlipperyFPV]

Is Kiss Apple of FPV drones? 🤔

[@uavtech]

No, FalcoX is the Apple of FPV dones.

[@SlipperyFPV]

@@uavtech ah more style than substance! 🤭🤣

[@JadonBaker]

Which ESC did you use for this test?

[@uavtech]

BLHeli_S. KISS ESCs are next.

[@JadonBaker]

@@uavtech Excellent! Comparing OneWire with DSHOT would be great too! Thanks Mark

[@qpmkro]

Let me just lol at that, not even blheli 32. Omg seriously?

[@technotaubsi]

@@qpmkro ???

[@mouseFPV]

Mark why dont you learn to tune bro 😂🤣. Seriously who said that?!

[@uavtech]

The dumb-dumb types

[@splif7773]

No shit, mark is one of the best tuners out there!

[@MrSabram07]

Way over my head

[@djoair3285]

Need pids for iflight xl5 titan 6s 1800 kv please 🙏🏼

[@user-vr1qv6qe7f]

Kinda funny how they say you of all people cant tune. Lol

[@uavtech]

Smart guys that are clueless. It usually is followed by nonsense advice that is wrong.in so many way, but to educate them on why is 2-hrs.of work.

[@jas-FPV]

I really dont get why Kiss is supposed to be better... I guess people just want to like it to be different. Which is ok...

[@terpsquirter7107]

If you could take mansplaning to the point of not even being able to understand wtf he’s saying anymore this dudes it.

[@qpmkro]

i dont know why anybody would use only dshot600 on kiss, go dshot 2400. Oh lol i just saw, you weren't using a full kiss setup yet you want to tune kiss, jesus.

[@uavtech]

Which is ridiculous at a 1k loop and based on KISS guys in my discord is riddled with bugs that can drop your quad from the sky (Dshot2400). So KISS only works on very specific equipment, Jesus. Man, the marketing really got you good, eh?

[@qpmkro]

@@uavtech no, you can''t say yoyu are testing a kiss setup without having kiss esc's that everybody knows, well everybody that uses kiss for years knows, are integral to that kiss setup giving you everything kiss has. Why aren't you fair, people that use kiss fc with other esc's are made fun of on kiss groups yet you are here defending your obvious bad choice. Does bf work with kiss esc's ? No ? But kiss works with bf esc's. So who's better here ? It seems bf only works with bf stuff, who could have known. But if you want the same for kiss, neah, it's not ok to want kiss fc and kiss esc. Double standard much ?

[@uavtech]

I have purchased KISS ESCs for Phase II testing, as outlined in the video. Pffff.. Educate yourself before commenting. Really, KISS ESCs won't read the same Dshot protocol from BF? I find that hard to believe, but we will see. BTW, BF does not have equipment, it is not a company. It is just a FW community project on Github.

[@qpmkro]

Kiss esc s in bf would only work on max dshot600

[@uavtech]

Which is 8x faster than the 1k pid loop KISS runs. Plenty of speed and won't fall from the sky like Dshot2400

[@borgonianevolution]

Several points I have now since you linked me back after my thoughts on the first video. Black box is useful to get you in the ball park. Its useless to fine tune an end all be all tune with it. Human muscle control is too imprecise to be consistent enough not to mention every flight is not in a closed environment. So far EVERY video I have seen tuned to it looks like ass because the pilot didnt do the exact same thing the exact same way the next flight. Its impossible. As many tunes Bardwell did with it over the years they all still flew like ass. They flew "Better" but not the best. Second is if you are tuning with KISS you MUST use TPA to find the happy spot between smooth and super tight specially if you use HQ or Gemfan props. They suck for over all performance but have a sweet spot so many people tune for their style of flying which is why everyone uses them. As soon as you break out of that tuned sweet spot they behave like untrained toddlers. When I tune (still on V1 KISS even) I use Dal props which are more stable across the whole throttle range. Who cares if they are slightly heavier with the new motor tech specially if you go with low kv 6s builds. But anyways I tune higher P gains keep my D's usually around 12ish. If D goes over 15 in tuning I lower it back to 10 and go back to tightening P. The rest is managed by using TPA to smooth out mid to high throttle oscillation. That way I can fly freestyle or full throttle and not worry about the quad giving problems. If I get flutter or propwash its 99% my fault from bad throttle management or flying into my own bad air. Bounce back in a lot of cases boils down to too high rates for the pilots skill level or someone is using Expo in their tune. NEVER EVER EVER use expo on a quad. Find the balance using Rate and Super rate or Rate and RC rate depending what you fly.

[@uavtech]

"Black box is useful to get you in the ballpark. It's useless to fine tune an end all be all tune with it." - that is like saying: Use a tape measure to measure a building is good to get you close, but to get precise, you just eyeball it. I agree human muscle memory is imprecise, and that is why you do a lot of moves, look at them as a composite to see wsup. To then further take away our best tool of measurement doesn't make any sense. Adding imprecise listening or looking for things we think we may or may not see on top of the imprecise muscle memory of course doesn't help. Our species unique attribute is building tools to help our senses because they are so poor for this type of stuff. TPA I would argue is not needed - in general - for 95% of any tuning. The only reason I didn't turn it off for KISS is because if I would, everyone would bark that I messed up it by turning off KISS's magical TPA. I would guess most folks that fly KISS don't even realize how TPA influence works though on the other hand.

[@borgonianevolution]

@@uavtech I been flying KISS for 6 year+ betaflight for 4+. My stuff flys as I intend it to and I am happy. I figured I would point you in a direction that may help you and others work out tuning issues but I guess you dont need want or desire any input beyond your own ideas.. Rock on mate have fun and if your happy with what yer doin thats all that matters.

[@uavtech]

I think the advice is not consistent unfortunately. But like you said, have at it and have fun, that is all that matters.

[@2bfpv882]

@@uavtech LMAO