Kosh gets angry

[@Yora21]

How can you put so much emotion into the body language of a coat rack?

[@catsi563]

Same way three little words can convey multiple messages with the slightest nuance. I am Groot.

[@PupuTheMonkey]

Good writing and good acting. Very rare these days.

[@Jawzah]

Good directing, some prop production trickery and of course finally good editing might be involved too. I don't suppose it's a one take scene even if done by professionals with routine to do that character already. Basically you can do anything that can be done by doing it again and again until you get it right if you have "time" (patience, coffee and beer, funding).. for that.

[@Axius27]

@@Jawzah There was a reoccurring problem in the filming. The guy in the suit couldn't see where he was going, and constantly walked into the walls, especially when going through doors.

[@kansascityshuffle8526]

By making his shutter close in an offset manner.

[@Taospark]

Kosh probably went thousands of years without getting pissed off. Then he met John Sheridan.

[@JnEricsonx]

Kinda like that line from the Operative to Malcom Reynolds in Serenity. "I must tell you, you can't get me angry." Inara: "Please, spend a hour with him."

[@scottmantooth8785]

humans seem to have that effect on each other even now and we are the primitives

[@garytsang5673]

I highly doubt it, considering the next Kosh 2.0 is already a giant asshole Kosh 1.0 couldn't wait for an excuse to kill him.

[@MIchaelArlowe]

Kosh is lucky Sheridan didn't have any nukes around.

[@darrenquincey8666]

Plowbeast bit like getting married lol

[@Alamandorious]

Kosh was such an awesome character. Despite having no facial reactions, no real vocal inflection, he conveyed so much with words alone.

[@DrJReefer]

Yes.

[@Zamolxes77]

Dr J Reefer Good.

[@Alamandorious]

Zamolxes77 I should go..wait, sorry, wrong universe >.

[@Dillsfawn]

Old post, but... No, not really. Other than careful wording and tone, there was also the Eye Sensor Iris, and a variety of head tilts. To say nothing of positioning. Any time Kosh got super close, like in this clip after Kosh pins Sheridan to the wall is its own form of inflection and expression of intent.

[@TeaParty1776]

Definitely maybe.

[@halfdome001]

I think this scene offers a great look at what Bruce Boxlitener was capable of. He always was a better actor when he got a chance to express raw emotion.

[@nothingtoseehere705]

The true brilliance of this scene is how, like Sheridan, you don't even realize the horrible sadness and tragedy of Kosh's final words until it's too late.

[@Taospark]

Also that it breaks the trope of the wise ancient advisor not succumbing to baser emotions like anger and fear.

[@GtheMVP]

I know, I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but we know what happens and it was wowing, heartbreaking and terrifying. That Vorlon attack followed by the Shadow's response, just took B5 to new dramatic heights.

[@dezstepz2427]

Nothing to See Here a far superior space station series to Deep Space Nine for mine. Story was just so well written.

[@leighsaunderson9203]

Absolutely gutted out the outcome of this.....

[@Theri4444]

you forgot one, I also think its part of this scene I don't remember. There is a scene where Kosh tells sheridan that he must go to Zhadum which is a foretelling before sheridan even goes there. Then Kosh tell sheridan when you go to Zhadum you will die, again another foretelling

[@0megacron]

Looking back at this scene with the benefit of hindsight, there are so many subtleties in it... - Kosh knew that once the Vorlons & the Shadows actually met in battle, things would inevitably escalate into a horrible storm capable of swallowing the entire universe. And he was 100% right. - The moment when Kosh says "Disobedient!" and Sheridan says "Up yours!" is a perfect summary of Sheridan's character... defiance in the face of tyranny. - What Sheridan said that snapped Kosh out of his anger was "Maybe one more death will balance out the books." As we find out later, balance between chaos & order was the foundation of the entire war. You can tell it was at that moment that Kosh changed his mind about intervening... his eye was narrowed & furious with Sheridan until those words were uttered.

[@unematrix]

If they could swallow the entire universe, how come they were so concerned with 1 small corner of 1 galaxy?

[@mangamegs]

@@unematrix I think he means their know universe. The part of it their cultures originate from.

[@Taospark]

Kosh probably realized then too that the one death to balance the books would be his.

[@LabTech41]

@@unematrix Eons ago, the Vorlons and the Shadows were just two of many such races in the galaxy, amongst a community of species that had ascended to higher planes of existence. Most chose to leave the galaxy and pursue other enterprises, in order to make room for younger races to grow in their wake, but it was also decided that guardians or guides should stay behind to help the younger races mature in a responsible fashion. The Vorlons and the Shadows were chosen to take on this guardianship role. The problem is, over time, both races forgot the true purpose of their presence in the galaxy, and decided that instead of truly safeguarding the future development of other lesser races, they would pervert the process by taking younger races and turning them into pawns in a proxy war to prove which race had the superior philosophy. That was the true motivation for the last Shadow War, and the one this series takes place in: both sides deceived their wards into thinking the other was a mortal threat, when in truth both sides were causing endless conflict for the sake of their own egos and pride. We don't know how many times they've done it, or over how long a span of time this has been going on, but what's clear is that by this point the process has been refined to be quite choreographed, with rules that dictate that the two higher races never directly fight, and that was a rule that Kosh broke when he decided to help Sheridan. The Shadows could've killed Kosh at any time; it's pretty clear they chose not to because they didn't want to escalate the conflict at that time in a way that would cause the two to directly fight. What's clear is that Kosh was possibly the only member of either race to realize this pettiness was only serving to destroy lesser races, and turn them into nothing more than weapons to serve a conflict that had nothing to do with them. After Kosh died, it's clear that both races would've kept this going on over and over again, but fortunately enough lessons were learned by the lesser races that they managed to find a way out of the endless cycle and force both out of the galaxy so that the lesser races could figure it out on their own.

[@robwalsh9843]

Kosh realized that the younger races - especially humans - process a bravado and fighting spirit that his people had forgotten. Instead, they just play chess with different planets.

[@Vikashar]

Sheridan's willingness to die for the cause made Kosh realize his own fear of death was selfish, made him reevaluate himself and reminded him of why he put his faith in Sheridan. A younger race making a Vorlon reevaluate its morality. An amazing thing happened here.

[@spectre111]

As one reviewer put it "Sheriden did the impossible, he shamed a Vorlon"

[@luisderivas6005]

When you have lived for so long, it is difficult to shed that inertia.

[@pplr1]

Did Kosh always expect to die? He knew the Shadows would come for him 1st and he may have planned to help Sheridan on a suicide mission later.

[@JasonGabler]

Sounds more like Kosh was in some way protecting Sheridan by refusing to commit Vorlon forced. Once Kosh realized that Sheridan considered his own life forfeit, along with already knowing Sheridan's logic was correct, he relented.

[@FaultlineSurfer]

"How many more dead before you're satisfied!?" The answer to that is what made Kosh realize he just couldn't live with the cycle anymore

[@John00065]

"One more death will balance the books." Sheridan had no idea how right he was...

[@harmonicajay91]

"Disobedience!" *Renegade Choice* "Up Yours!"

[@DCdabest]

+eastwing329 *Paragon choice*: "Hey now!"

[@22kingdomheartsfan]

Shadows vs Reapers. Who would win?

[@JnEricsonx]

That's a good question-one to be answered while observing from another GALAXY imho.

The Reapers would win easily because they go around emitting a telepathic signal all day long.

[@kanoreese1253]

The Vorlons would wipe the floor with the Reapers!

[@manweller1]

This show was miles ahead of anyone else

[@scottmantooth8785]

more like light years and still moving

[@pendarpr]

light years away!

[@alanguages]

The Amiga was about ten years ahead it's time. I wish it would have continued to evolve. To think the Amiga was what was used at the time for Babylon 5 and it blew away anything else on t.v.

[@RobTheSquire]

However it quite far behind in CGI but everything else was topnotch...WE WANT A NEW SERIES !!!!!!!!!!

[@SirLyonhart]

@@RobTheSquire The ship to ship combat graphics were what turned me off about B5. Battlestar Galactica did so much better 15 years earlier with practical models.

[@ExploreGamesAndMore]

"You haven't done a damn thing but stand there and look cryptic" - great line.

[@Astrostevo]

One of so many great lines - just in this scene alone.

[@lmpoar]

I think that'll be my final line to my boss when I'm leaving for a new job.

[@ronyncato7206]

Not to mention that the whole war was just the Shadows and Kosh's people using the galaxy as a dialectic experiment. Screw him.

[@joeysingingchannel]

@@ronyncato7206 This Kosh was definitely more compassionate than the others.

[@hosiedavis4161]

there a reason if they did the younger race would never have a chance Sheridan

[@Whitestar901]

And this is why Kosh respected Sheridan. Not only was he willing to confront a much older and more powerful being, but he was also willing to provoke him too. Not many would have the guts to do that.

[@gprimr1]

+Whitestar901 Kosh taught him, remember that Kosh said "to fight legends" He didn't' say shadows, or legend, but he used the plural. Kosh knew Sheridan would end up fighting the Vorlons too.

[@stevenmorton298]

Desperation drives people to do things they wouldn't consider under normal circumstances. It's universally agreed that pissing off a Vorlon is a bad idea, but Sheridan had nothing to lose.

[@1979RayDay]

Grapefruits

[@willt2810]

Kosh was just a good Vorlon and actually liked the younger races. He probably felt reinvigorated being around them. He knew the sacrifice asked of him but he saw how close Sheridan was to just giving up and decided to help him knowing he would died in retaliation. In a way I think he understood now.

[@Kainlarsen]

Wasn't Sheridan's first rodeo against an older race...

[@roteba1]

"I will do as you ask" - It's such a tragic line when we know Kosh is fully aware of the consequences, and could easily walk away if his conscience allowed him to.

[@meeshgardner83]

Reminds me of "As you wish"

[@SuperSoundtracks]

I always found it funny to imagine his encounter suit getting stuck on a hook somewhere in the corridors, resulting in kosh just standing in place for hours, too proud to ask for help.

[@lilben4184]

kek

[@Proximax9]

"need help?" "leave. now." "okay..."

[@paulprecour3636]

"Stuck on a nail there Buddy" "Im...pu...dence...". "Uhm, how much longer are you just going to wait there! How many more have to encounter that SAME rusty nail before you DO SOMETHING!" "It is...not...yet...time."

[@moorhen6156]

ambassador are you ok? **there is a hook in my suit** can you not get free? **i have always been here** do you need a hand? **it is not yet my time** are you sure? **Impudence**

[@Janoha17]

They had to limit the shots of Kosh entering and exiting rooms because the encounter suit did not fit through the doorways.

[@burkesongs]

"Disobedient!" "Up yours!" I love that exchange. LOL

[@Karthos1000]

Still the greatest television show of all time.

[@drmachinewerke1]

John Landon Right behind Hogan’s Hero’s

[@НиколайНиколаев-м5л]

Это одно из лучших произведений!

[@porpus99]

My two favorite characters were G'Kar and Kosh. Kosh's character never really said much in a given episode, but when he did speak it was rather profound and could be the most important part of the story of that episode.

[@thepaleprinceofruins9203]

Kosh is also the character who played the long game and you figure out the depths of his character and how big a role he had in defining moments of the show the more the show goes on. One of my favorite of the cast for sure.

[@sensen1080]

Even after all these years, hearing "Z'ha'dum" gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[@IIISentorIII]

why, what happened to my beloved vacation planet?

[@argonwheatbelly637]

I will always think, "Khazad-dûm".

[@shadiwon]

the shadows ship sound does it for me that is one creepy sound to hear

[@marksemple297]

@@argonwheatbelly637 *steve rogers* i got that reference.gif

[@mindya1799]

"You do not understand. But, you will" Wonder the guilt he had, when he finally "understood"

[@vendoth]

It had to be done or nothing would have happened and he knew that if Sheridan could be brave so could he. It is dam hard to stand by your convictions sometimes

[@alexanderkuptsov6117]

>>Wonder the guilt he had, when he finally "understood" When Vorlon planet destroyers began to obliterate worlds, I think he didn't feel guilty anymore.

[@Tamamo-no-Bae]

@@alexanderkuptsov6117 Kosh was a bro though...

[@_NIKOS9_NIKOS]

I have a feeling that Kosh also felt guilty for how he talked to him here. This is why he made sure to reassure him that he was right for asking him that just before he was killed

[@LuxiChara]

@@_NIKOS9_NIKOS yeah, he was just afraid of what he knew would happen, he didn't want to help him because he was scared. But in the end, he knew, past his emotions, it was the better thing to do

[@davidgroll-cook7125]

One of the best tv shows of all time. It doesn’t get better than this.

[@KnightofDuroch]

Really gotta tip my hat to Boxleitner in this scene. When you think about it, he's really doing ALL the work.

[@OpenMawProductions]

Though the actor in the suit is doing a pretty good job with subtle body language, combined with the eye piece.

[@Redmanticore]

a hat tipper, oh no

[@mariusraab9076]

@@Redmanticore a necroposter, omygawd.

[@PackerBronco]

Kosh muttering to himself: "Kids these days ... oy ..."

[@airsoftmanic]

along with SG1, Atlantis, Farscape..... we need more sci-fi, less reality TV.

[@scottmantooth8785]

we need more genuine creativity and intelligence in programming and less dependence on superficial flash and distractions by explosions, profanity and unfettered cleavage

[@Oriaks]

*cough* The Expanse *cough*

[@kenetickups6146]

we need a ban on reality tv

[@madmachanicest9955]

Dame right

[@alexanderkuptsov6117]

Totally agree

[@Hiraghm]

Kosh won't kill him. Kosh can't kill him. Kosh loves him.

[@Argumemnon]

It's tough love.

[@luisderivas6005]

@@Argumemnon Yes it is. Remember the trial with Jack the Ripper?

[@oomusd]

when Sheridan said "up yours" to the Vorlon, I was shocked :) So much awe and reverence was built upon that Kosh character than I couldn't imagined the show will go to that point. After years of frustrating answers by the vorlons, Sheridan acted like the spectators : enough with the pretense ! And it worked perfectly. Kosh was set as a tragic character, Sheridan was desperate as hell and a price was paid. - it was beautiful acting with a puppet.

[@Astrostevo]

Agreed except for the "with a puppet" bit. Fairly sure there was a real actor in that suit wasn't there?

[@Ni999]

Astrostevo Yep. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosh_Naranek Unless they meant it allegorically.

[@websnarf]

"You do not understand ... but you will!" I don't know why, but that line just stays with me. Such a pivotal scene.

[@cirian75]

+Paul Hsieh aye Spoiler below Kosh knows engaging the Shadows now, means Mordon with his Shadow assassins will come and kill him straight afterwards.

[@peterzimmerman1114]

Kosh wasn't really angry, he was afraid, he knew they would kill him if he intervened. Also, Kosh implanted a piece of his concious inside Sheridan in preparation for what was to come. Some of the words Sheridan said towards the end also had added meaning to Kosh who had other expectations from things to come, perhaps one more death will balance the books.

[@Zamolxes77]

That "implantation" actually takes place in next scene, when Kosh visits Sheridan in his dream to say goodbye.

[@websnarf]

Zamolxes77 That's what I thought too at first, but it actually doesn't make a lot of sense. Remember whenever the Vorlons "entered" Lyta, she had to be in their presence and there was a physical connection between them somehow. When Sheridan was having the dream, what I think was happening was the part of Kosh already in him was in telepathic communication with the "main Kosh" to both give final instructions about what to do at Zha'hadum and to convey his last message to Sheridan. Think about when Kosh entered G'kar's mind to stop his telepathic raping of Londo. Kosh was actually physically in their presence in order to do this.

[@Zamolxes77]

Paul Hsieh Uhm, no, not really. Lyta was genetically modified to carry around a Vorlon and G'Kar also perceived Kosh in a dream like state. Also, the 1st time Kosh touched Sheridan's mind, he was light years away, captive on that alien ship that took specimens as a prelude to invasion. So no, his presence is not required in immediate vicinity, at least not in Sheridan's case.

[@mr.nonamanadus4463]

This series had plots within plots keeping a person guessing what is going to happen next. The interaction between characters and the subtle humor (like the teddy bear sliding across the Starfury's windshield) made this series great.

[@hybriddefect]

Kosh was such an admirable character. Too bad the Vorlons were total bastards.

[@mreboric8406]

It's not they they are bastards or don't care they are simply pragmatic and see the bigger picture. They used to be highly self obsessed and arrogant and that lead to them opening a doorway to another world full of a horrific xenophobic race that had all but conquered their world. They did it to touch the face of god but ended up provoking the devil. Now knowing what the future holds they choose to be mediators that teach other races to not make their mistakes rather than protagonist. Almost everything Kosh does is to safeguard the young races to insure they have a future.

[@hybriddefect]

James Clark Did you finish watching the series? The Vorlons were as bad as the Shadows.

[@mreboric8406]

Yes i watched it everything ever made about B5. The production quality has not aged well but it is still one of my favorite shows of all time.

[@nothingtoseehere705]

hybriddefect One of the things I think was so brilliant about Kosh was how he came off as cryptic and enigmatic, but if you think about it, Kosh was like a human trying to communicate with dogs in their own language. Kosh could only do so in fairly measured and simple terms. Most writers who try to do that fail completely, but with Kosh, you always had that sense of incomprehensibility, but never inconsistency.

[@gprimr1]

+Nothing to See Here I question that a bit. When Kosh is dying, he seems to drop the whole cryptic act and speak in plain English, which makes me think he was able to do it the whole time. I kind of imagine his back story goes something like this: Kosh was old, so he was smart. Kosh was involved in the 1st Shadow War, he probably was part of the fleet that drove the Shadows back, and shelled the Zahadum's surface. At some point, he meets Loriein, either in person or telepathically. Lorien gives Kosh understanding and Kosh begins to see how the Vorlons have failed in their job, but Kosh is still a Vorlon, and part of a highly stagnant culture, so he helps Sheridan as best he can.

[@iamnotanuggetblackhart5103]

"DISOBEDIENT!" Sheridan "Up yours!" Damn....this is why I love Sheridan! He doesn't give a shit whether his life is in danger or not when he's on the side of righteousness.

[@X4PP3D]

What a great scene. I didn't like Sheridan at first, but that's more emotion than we saw from Sinclair in a whole season. The actor must have really gotten psyched for this one, because you can just feel the desperation of his situation and hear it in his voice, especially where he says his own government wants him dead. It was a very charged moment, and one that lets us see another side of Kosh too.

[@Doughboydanny]

@@saberiandream316 Don't forget Michael O'Hare, Sinclair's actor, was suffering from Schizophrenia. The man was holding on until the end of the season 1 before it overcame him.

[@karimsonsafehold9233]

all of our governments want us dead, this is 2024 mortals.

[@brav0wing]

- Disobedient! - Up yours! Ha ha, always loved this. This is a fore-shadowing of Sheridan's statement to the older races to get the hell out of the galaxy.

[@scottmantooth8785]

where exactly was Kosh's "yours" located and how would you even gain access to it? ....then again i'm probably better off not knowing

[@thepaleprinceofruins9203]

What a scene, man. Sherridan being absolutely desperate and calling Kosh and the Vorlons out for their passivity and hypocrisy, having to deal with the threat of the Shadows as well as running against his own government that is currently seeing the rise of a totalitarian regime that's out for his blood. Then you have Kosh pondering the thought of his own death, as well as the death of the Vorlons and struggling to accept it. It's just so fucking good and hard to beat, one of the strongest moments in the show for sure!

[@erichenning2282]

He isn't Angry, He is scared... :'(

[@elegantpaws4650]

Finally! Someone gets it.

[@DarthBiomech]

+legendarytoyou Agree about the Borg, but have doubts about Reapers. They, even if just machines, are just as old as the First Ones of B5, and also very powerful (You can't repeatedly curbstomp entire galaxy for aeons without some power). They maybe will not win, but they will not be an effortless battle either.

[@Emrod82]

Tyranids and Necron want to have a words with you...

[@slavkei]

+Eric Henning - That's what the shadows and Vorlons are. Scared children. The ones who were too immature to leave when it was time to grow up and move out, who decided to "stay behind to help the young kids" not out of altruism, but because it was an excuse to not have to leave and grow up. See: "Will you go with us?" with Lorien in Season 4. Frightened children, trying to avoid their future.

[@Minastir1]

They are both scared.

[@madman2u]

Looking back, this scene was probably the most pivotal for the both of them. Such a good series.

[@Novasky2007]

Sheridan doesn't realise he is asking his closest most powerful ally to sacrifice himself early in the game. To protect Delen and Sheridans alliance.

[@Theri4444]

and yet I think kosh knew that eventually sheridan will ask this question here.

[@misterturkturkle]

Sometimes in chess you have to sacrifice a queen early to get good position and win with pawns

[@AlexSDU]

@@misterturkturkle I've traded both my bishop and a knight plus several pawn just to get my friend's Queen. Once I get it, he totally lost it and quit.

[@nobodyimportant72]

@@AlexSDU That all depends on the game. In chess I've given a queen to an opponent's pawn which sealed my victory. While it may be more difficult you can play without a queen yet there are some who fall apart if she's lost and others who will give up far too much to get the queen.

[@jonathanreyes5115]

I only realize this now. The choice is between rely on each now or rely on Vorlons later. Kinda deep if you think about it

[@John_Weiss]

Something that JMS said online about this episode: The Shadows would've gone after Sheridan and/or Delen. Kosh sacrificed himself to prevent that from happening. The Vorlons, in general, are like very, *very* strict parents. In contrast, Kosh is the indulgent uncle.

[@BladeOfLight16]

No, Kosh is like a _father,_ willing to lay down his own life to protect the children he loves so dearly. The Vorlons in general are exactly what Sheridan said they were later: one of two parents arguing in front of their children, trying to get the children to take sides for their own benefit, not caring whether the children suffered or not.

[@Aldaris1234567]

@@BladeOfLight16 There's a difference between the attitude of the species, and the attitude of an individual. That's why John is right.

[@BladeOfLight16]

@Aldaris ...Uh... My comment explicitly says that Kosh's attitude is different from most of the race? So I have no idea how that means anything.

[@Aldaris1234567]

@@BladeOfLight16 You said he's like a father. John said they're like parents. That's the same thing. What John said is Kosh is like an uncle, which is different than you saying he was a parent. Pretty simple.

[@BladeOfLight16]

@Aldaris Kosh's behavior is much more fatherly than it is like an "indulgent uncle." An indulgent uncle is just interested in keeping the kid happy until their parents get back. Kosh is clearly invested in ensuring that the people he looks over grow and mature and become better, more capable people. Momentary happiness is much lower on his list of priorities. That is a fatherly role, the kind of father who is actually trying to live up to his responsibilities. The rest of the Vorlon race (as far as we see) is like a bad parent, who cares less about their kid than they do about winning arguments with the other parent.

[@thebookofwhitewalkers4610]

Still my favorite show, I love the continuity, the story and the world always evolving, great writing and interesting ideas

[@Guitarsoul24734]

This is a really fascinating scene to re-watch knowing the whole context and arc of the entire show. Wow.

[@sandspatel]

Beautiful story telling, I love how every scene plays a part in the tapestry of the story. "You do not understand. But you will." Classic.

[@nagaking07]

"Disobedient!" "Up yours!" You won't hear that on Star Trek.

[@Zamolxes77]

No, Star Trek would be like " Can you reverse the polarity? I'll do my best sir. Weapons at maximum !"

[@peterzimmerman1114]

It's kind of symbolic for the overall story. The Vorlons an Shadows considers themselves more like parrents or Guardians of the young in the galaxy. Kosh got frustrated that the youngling didn't listen and do as he said, and Sheridan did what most young people do when they are feed up with getting controlled and pushed around by their elders.

[@peterzimmerman1114]

Tbh... I think it has a much better, evolving story. "Makeup" also got better over time. Also, I think Babylon 5 was better at depicting a living universe with lots of different people in it from different walks of life doing their thing. At the same time they are different types of stories, Babylon fine is more abotu interactions between people, while Star Trek was more about the lust to explore the unknown and the new. With a few repeat adversaries to shake things up. Tbh, I like both for different reasons.

[@gpgpgpgp1000]

No need to pretend! Babylon 5 blows Star Trek out of the water.

[@carnorjax007]

lol he's not wrong babylon5 is far superior to nearly all star trek shows only ds9 comes close

[@JasonLuthor]

Fraaaack this show was so good.

[@MayhemJack]

One of the most important scenes in Babylon 5.

[@BriDog420]

This is one of the coolest scenes in the show.

[@kimnice]

"So..the real Kosh shows his colours at last huh?" I had this weird smile after that line! This insanely good scene in a insanely good series.

[@asaltyone3015]

See the thing I like about this scene after knowing the consequence of it, is that Kosh knows Sheridan is right. But he is afraid to die. An unknown, entirely alien race is afraid just like everyone else.

[@DorianMichaelsIII]

Kosh is special because (it is implied, and later shown)-- that he is the first Vorlon in perhaps their entire history (heavily implied) to actually, as Sheridan puts it, 'get down off the mountaintop', and put their money where their -metaphysical- mouth is-- and fight the war against the Shadows for themselves for once. It makes me wonder if the other Vorlons would have eventually killed Kosh themselves for getting them directly involved, had the Shadows not beaten them to the punch...

[@jimbo3356]

Kosh walks away, sheriden thinks to himself " that has got to be the stupidest thing i have ever done"

[@scottmantooth8785]

wonder what is the Vorlon word for "Doh!" is...

[@Proximax9]

And he didnt even use nukes this time

[@dddrrmm]

Just like Molari and J'Kar, Kosh was a mediator connecting two very different worlds. The vorlon were just as bad as the shadows, they only fought for a different side, with different means. Kosh realised that his people were wrong and it was time to break the cycle, but he couldn't relay that to Sheridanit terms he would understand. When the next vorlon ambasador comes Sheridan realises he'd foolishly demaned that humanity's only friend sacrifice himself for a trivial victory that would not win the war. Kosh was angry at Sheridan, not for being asked to sacrifice himself, but for not thrusting him enough.

[@daniels7907]

In fairness, I don't think that Kosh really *had* a plan. Various aspects of the Vorlon's plans had already been subverted by the Shadows. An especially great coup for them was gaining control of some of the Vorlon's own telepaths by co-opting Psi-Corps. Humanity was also supposed to be crucial to their "plan", but the Shadows gained control of Earthgov via President Clark. My personal belief is that things had started moving too quickly for the order-minded Vorlons, and they were struggling to react to changing circumstances that were undermining their original plan.

[@timemonkey]

Kosh isn't really mad at Sheridan, Kosh is afraid, he knows what the consequences will be, he's trying to convince himself and Sheridan that Sheridan isn't ready to stand on his own, that he still needs Kosh. Once Kosh realises what he's doing he backs down and gives in. Kosh's death was a necessary consequence to freeing the younger races from the unending war.

[@qawamity]

timemonkey I would say Kosh was a lot of things at this point. Afraid, angry, sad, guilt-ridden... For how long did he sit back and grieve those lost that he could have helped? The whole time trying to convince himself it was for the greater good? And to be confronted by that? To have someone get up in his face and confront him with the very same inadequacies he always tried to dodge with his own justifications and excuses? For all his timeless alien-ness, Kosh was very much human.

[@qawamity]

***** The evidence I saw was just how angry he got.

[@daniels7907]

Kosh exhibits sadness (or resignation) at the end when he tells Sheriden that he will not be able to help him when he goes to Za'ha'dum, which Sheriden misinterprets as Kosh threatening to withhold his help as punishment for satisfying Sheriden's current demand for help. Sheriden doesn't know that Kosh is referring to the fact that bringing the Vorlons into the war directly will result in his own death before Sheriden goes to Za'ha'dum.

[@ghfun1]

I love this Sheridan Kosh scene so strong so emotional..

[@brianweaver327]

Good night, sweet Kosh. The only Vorlon that gave a crap about humanity.

[@PackerBronco]

"You haven't done a damn thing but stand there and look cryptic" Damn but I love this show.

[@419Films]

One of my favourite Kosh scenes.

[@SandsOfArrakis]

This one and the one where he shows Sheridan that one perfect moment.

[@knapret]

One moment of perfect beauty.

[@tyrant-den884]

I believe an RPG guide had this to say about picking a fight with Kosh: "You cannot beat him. no that wont work. that will not work either. you will not win."

[@JoshSweetvale]

/Points at Ulkesh GHOSTBUSTERS!!! :D

[@aardvark280]

I think that this scene shows the best acting that I've ever seen by Bruce... and I've seen him in 3 TV series and other roles.

[@rayshinsan]

One of the best moment is sci-fi history. Teaches you the meaning of consequences and power to take control of an ally stronger than yourself at the same time.

[@Egobyte83]

Whenever I hear Sheridan lose his patience at the beginning, I'm like... "shit's about to go down"

[@scottmantooth8785]

how do things go "down" in a zero G environment? they would just coalesce in a spherical shape and just hang their floating around waiting to be disturbed...

[@PackerBronco]

A scene that only grows in stature and meaning once you know what the Shadow war was really all about.

[@thomashardy4436]

you can hear the sorrow in Kosh at 3:45 till the end knowing what is to come.

[@Fallout777]

Great series, now all 5 seasons are on Amazon Prime, I'll be watching this series again. I wish someone would make this into a movie.

[@Astrostevo]

I guess you know there are a few Babylon 5 movies out there like Thirdspace, In the Beginning, an early one with Sinclair and an attempt at assassinating the Vorlon ambassador etc .. right? Plus theone that leads in to the later Crusade series with the Drakh attack on Earth. You meant a movie of the whole series? Not sure quite how that would work.

[@sabrewolf4129]

I have the DVD set, I also recorded the original pilot on VHS of all things when it was aired.

[@RainingCatsAndDogs1975]

Kosh "disobedient", Sheridan "UP YOURS" love that line

[@Karthos1000]

GOD I love this show.

[@kevreads3269]

"Anyway, Kosh, thanks for hearing me out. Safe home, okay?"

[@robwalsh9843]

Kosh was secretly pleased. He thought "This is the guy I've been looking for"

[@stevieboymkii]

This was another one of those great B5 scenes, pivotal in fact.

[@ronpernia6213]

I love when Sheridan says I’m not leaving, your gonna have to kill me, kosh’s eye widen, and leaned back and the centered at Sheridan, great story, great show

[@TheAdorkableRJ]

I love how so many Vorlon replies are just single word, matter-of-fact statements. ''Impudent.'' ''Incorrect.'' ''Disobedient.'' Even on the rare occasion when Kosh is angry, there's still a certain restraint and precision that you'd never hear from a riled up human.

[@PackerBronco]

I would have died if Kosh had replied at one point: "Bite me"

[@lexsmith8689]

twasn´t incorrect but incurring (most definitely Kosh´s anger)

[@tails0420ify]

The rest is lost in translation.

[@jimbo3356]

3:52 - the look on his face is like "holly shit it actualy worked"

[@mainmanbumfuzz8983]

2:43 This is the first time in the entire series we hear pained frustration from Kosh. He agrees with Sheridan, but he knows the cost.

[@ralphjackson2518]

I didn't notice until watching now but Kosh isn't angry at impudence, not fully. He's scared because he knows what the price of helping will be.

[@nnthayer]

And if he'd explained it to Sheridan, Sheridan would have taken off the pressure. But he'd never do that, both because of natural Vorlon pride and because he knew it had to be done.

[@mew19forever]

One of the best and most powerful scene's in Babylon 5 ! Excellent writing and great characters!

[@JanikLitalien]

That and the Morden-Londo "What do you want" elevator convo are pivotal

[@Sahluful]

It's like a son standing up to his father.

[@MCTyrannic]

once in a while, i find myself watching this clip and within 24 hours of watching it, im half way through series 1 in a nice little marathon its both a blessing and a curse, because i can never just watch a single episode, or a single scene, its the entire thing, all 5 series (and movies) or nothing what still puzzles me about B5, when it first came out, i was a lot younger (but then, weren't we all?), i swore off it as garbage! instead of trying to understand it and follow the story, i went to DS9 and became a Trekker just a year ago, a friend gave me the complete set for my birthday, my head was already saying ''oh great, not this again'', but it was a present, so i gave it another chance in the last year, ive watched the entire series 4 times. it is by far, the best sci fi ive ever seen!. are the visuals dated? of course they are, but they work, the story... my god the story is fantastic, Firefly came close to it in quality, but of a completely different sorts, this people, Babylon 5, is what TV should strive to be like, from threats to revelations, character development and overall arcs, im yet to find another series that holds up to it just don't start me on Andreas Katsulas... G'Kar is the original warrior poet, each line delivered with such passion, his speeches bring tears to my eyes... now where did i leave that box set...

[@slitor]

You got the box set...holy shit you have good friends.

[@GtheMVP]

I felt the same way, always seeing B5 as garbage due to the wooden acting of season 1 and its cheap sets/effects. Season 2 and on, however... fucking epic, though you have to watch season 1 as it sets the stage for greatness. The ony, thing that comes to close are DS9 and Stargate SG1 with Atlantis (even Universe), the latter I just finished for the first time. SG1 takes longer to get going but man the payoff is massive and it brings some beloved characters from Farscape, another epic Sci-Fi series! If you do watch Stargate SG1, be sure to watch Atlantis episodes after SG1 episodes when they aired back to back (starts SG1 season 8 I believe)

[@lukecarlson4710]

Talyn, I feel the same way.

[@TheJiminiKrikitShow]

I bought each series as they were made available here in New Zealand. Bab5 was in an completely inappropriate timeslot when it aired on television. A show about politics in space and they put in on Saturday mornings 10am-11am or maybe 11am-12pm. They would've got a better audience had they played it at 10pm-11pm when folk interested in a good political action drama or a good opera or a good space opera? I wouldn't describe Bab5 as 'space opera" yet it shares many of the traits but all the time avoiding the 'cheesiness' of space opera. It was Game of thrones in space in many ways. The machiavellian intrigues of kings and Queens, heads of state and struggles for war and peace, money and power and love and lust (telepathic love orgy anyone?-season 4) I own everything Bab5 and watch them sill and STILL i find myself watching best of clips online. JMS disease of the mind.

[@BladeOfLight16]

You probably didn't watch it from beginning to end, so you were lost. Long epics tend to make for much better stories (with all sorts of subtle and not so subtle references back to earlier events), as you see the characters grow and change as everything unfolds. But if you're just watching an episode at a time, it can be hard to follow it. Things are a little different now, since we have so much analysis going on that it's easier to get caught up if you miss an episode or don't notice the reference to earlier events.

[@Joseph32547]

The depth and the layers of writing in this show. It is epic on a scale i have not seen matched.

[@iona2225]

Dunno why, but at 3:32 or so when he'a goading Kosh to kill him, 'balence the books' and the viewing lense goes from that menacing pupil to a surpsied widenss, im not sure what im getting from it, but its powerful. The cynic in me, if i was in kosh's shoes would be asking 'would he really go that far?' This species is immortal. They possibly know where one goes or doesnt when they die and may be more terrified of the facts. But the smaller, oddly venonmous-sick sensation in myheaet also overlaps, of the 'if my friend or student told me to kill him or her, in place of myself for a cause they saw a good.? I wouldnt. With kosh, at the near end, im not sure if he's the old man who sees hope again or the old man who has grown to care greatly for his charge. Or maybe both.

[@paralogia]

It's the garden of Gethsemane. He knows he will die if he does it. He does not want to. But he does. We have this scene in other episodes both explicit and implicit.

[@bdchiaccio]

Very cool. Never thought of that!

[@Archone666]

I think part of it was the exact wording. "Maybe one more death will balance the books?" Sheridan was talking about his own death... but Kosh knew that only his own would suffice. Sheridan was prepared to die for the sake of others - a thing that the Vorlons esteemed so highly that they kept Jack the Ripper on hand to test potential "chosen ones" to confirm that quality. Kosh knew that HE needed to accept his own death, for the sake of others. That moment when his eyes widen is the moment when he realizes that Sheridan was right, and he himself was wrong... he didn't want to die, didn't want to go away, but he had to for the sake of the younger races.

[@thesilvershining]

Arkone Axon Yep, exactly. Perfectly said.

[@longdarknights]

=( what I always remember is that the part where Kosh said "But there is a price to pay - I will not be there when you go to Zahadum" - it wasn't because he was angry - it was because he knew helping the captain meant his own death. .....Makes me wonder what else he said with that kind of selflessness and nobility layered within a seemingly cryptic and condescending interaction.

[@Minastir1]

The line of "if you go to Zahadum, you will die" pretty much meant that if he goes there, no matter what happens, the Vorlon agent Sheridan is dead to them. Just by hearing the other side of the argument he would understand what the Shadow war was really about. If the Shadows don't kill him for not joining them, the Vorlons will

[@Archone666]

@@Minastir1 That is... horribly accurate. The Vorlons were NOT very tolerant of opposing viewpoints. As we see later on.

[@Robman0908]

He would have been able to save Sheridan as he jumped if he was whole. Kosh knew that if anyone took the fight directly to Z’ha’dum that the reaction from the other Vorlons would devastating. Everyone would die, as what started to happen when the Vorlons mobilized.

[@scottmantooth8785]

even now this scene and series are truly epic and powerful both in emotional depth and complexity...so few movies or series today even come close to this

[@EQINOX187]

Man this was such a good show with amazing writing and an amazing story , this scene sticks with me to this day, the way kosh says he will not be there as he knows what will happen as he gets involved ( rip kosh ) but Sheriden does not and acts very human in his reaction

[@Astrostevo]

Awesome scene - awesome species & characters. Confronting the Vorlons and showing the other side of them as well as the obvious evil of the Shadows. Thanks for this. Epic and so densely layered with meaning and resonance.

[@gabehcuodsuoitneterp203]

I knew I recognized that voice - TRON!

[@0israphel0]

Kosh : Disobediant! Sheridan : Up yours!!! ZAP!!!

[@Xardion55]

3:52 - That look on Sheridan's face. Probably thinking 'Did I...just actually win an argument against Kosh?'

[@TR-qy9zy]

Later that night Sheridan is in his quarters with an Icy Hot patch around his neck and a large glass of whiskey.

[@LunicInformer]

ive looked forever for this scene thank you so much....kosh is badass

[@sandal_thong8631]

Probably the best interaction with Kosh in the whole series. Close second is when he's dying and appears as Sheridan's dad in a dream.

[@demarcusfaulkner7411]

kosh was a sacrifice and Sheridan didn't know it at first. He later regret it.

[@dorkfish1275]

Why do I have the feeling kosh would be crying in this scene if he wasn't a being of light?

[@RevanJJ]

This show, the writing, everything was so amazing! I must get that expensive DVD box set. I wish they’d release and upgrade definition on Blu-ray. Still saving up for the DVD lol

[@gordol66]

""You've done nothing but stand there and look cryptic!"

[@QuestionableObject]

The ways this scene grows in meaning as the series continued is so interesting. Kosh was reluctant to do as Sheridan asked because the Vorlons weren't prepared for all-out-war and Kosh knew the Shadows would retaliate and likely come for him directly. He knows that doing this favor now jeopardizes the future as he will be unable to directly help in future conflicts if the Shadows assassinate him, which they do. He doesn't want to hurt Sheridan, he wants to scare him into backing down, but when he makes it clear he won't back down he's forced to acquiesce. The Vorlon ambush on the Shadow vessels goes off without a hitch but the Shadows assassinate Kosh in retribution and all he could do was to put a piece of his soul into Sheridan in the hopes that that would be enough to keep the scales tipped in his favor. A shame his successor was much less lenient and rather bitter over the death of their fellow.

[@AtenRa]

If you watch this on mute, you can pretend that Sheridan was hungry and stole Kosh's cookies when he wasn't eating them. Don't ever eat a Vorlon's cookies without permission. *DISOBEDIENCE.*

[@valrod78]

C is for cookie and cookie is for me!

[@lordgiles1841]

As much I love the Show... Man, I would gladly see a HBO-Remake.

[@davidweihe6052]

Where would you put the nudity and public (simulated) sex? Vir and Lindesty (sp?) getting to seven might have been interesting. And we all know about the Pak'merah porn from Crusade.

[@scottmantooth8785]

really doubt it could ever achieve the same quality given the demands of studios making everything PC and reliant on gender fluidity options

[@hakont.4960]

Nah, would have too many space wieners and interstellar titties.

[@JnEricsonx]

Yeah well....have fun re-casting those roles! You tell me who could play Londo and G'kar.

[@Vulpine407]

@@JnEricsonx Good point. No one could ever replace Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik in the roles of G'kar and Mollari. Even people who never saw the original series would eventually discover it and most likely think: "Why did they re-do this with new actors? The originals were so much better."

[@akhillz]

miss you Kosh.

[@lmpoar]

Incredible scene. I sometimes wonder if Sheridan had been in Stargate that he might have been able to get the Ancients involved in the war with the Ori.

[@OreadNYC]

To me, Kosh's last words to Sheridan are very reminiscent of "The Matrix Reloaded" when the Oracle tells Neo that "no one can see past the choices they don't understand." Like Kosh, the Oracle is often very cryptic and typically chooses to be a passive (although by no means disinterested) observer. What makes this interaction so powerful is the fact that both Kosh and Sheridan have a legitimate argument -- the fact that one person is right doesn't automatically mean that everyone else must be wrong. Sheridan deserves every sympathy because he's truly caught between a rock and a hard place, and his assessment that Vorlon involvement will make all the difference is correct...but it seems clear that Kosh knows there is even more at stake than Sheridan realizes (understandable, since the Vorlons have been around far longer than humans and know only too well what the Shadows are capable of).

[@suchiuomizu]

+William Signs What? No, that is just completely wrong and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

[@kivimik]

+suchiuomizu Perhaps confusing Kosh with Valen?

[@scottmantooth8785]

absolutely correct and very adroitly stated

[@PackerBronco]

Sheridan: "You haven't done a damn thing but stand around looking cryptic" Kosh: "Alright young man! Go to your room! Without supper!"

[@bigbaba1111]

kosh was simply scared.:( that's so sad.

[@martindevon3204]

Kosh does a force choke

[@cernstormrunner7263]

I love this scene so damn much.

[@tyranusfan]

I love the "energy surge" detected in C&C when Kosh gets angry.

[@fighterck6241]

I always laugh out loud when this happens!