Mario Speedrunning History... is WRONG??

[@Kosmicd12]

Get 20% OFF + Free Shipping on your order with promo code "KOSMIC" at mnscpd.com/Kosmic

[@generallyunimportant]

tanks

[@xaemusic]

okay, but is manscaped actually good?

[@jondoc7525]

Did you ever play half life 2 as kosmic ?? I saw someone around back in the day

[@mataloger]

Did you see there is now real ACE in SMB, albeit with a cart-swap of SMB3 first.

[@computersocsci]

I think this video is the perfect way to give that run its place in SMB history. Your explanations make it clear that it doesn't compare cleanly with existing runs, but the acknowledgement that the player's skill level was there all that time ago is something they deserve.

[@Kosmicd12]

Thanks! 😀

[@elementalnova7418]

a dwarf fortress profile pic in the wild

[@TomsBackyardWorkshop]

I did a sub 5 in 1986. 4 days 11 hours 32 mins and 14 seconds.

[@NaraSherko]

Wrong

[@KwikBR]

did you use the DTAP clip or the crouch clip for 1-3?

[@sbubwoofer]

did you use an L+R bullet bill clip? Because then your emulation might be disqualified

[@LeoStaley]

I'm skeptical. Do we have ANY video of him eating pizza and drinking coke while doing his speedrun? Any at all?

[@rgwl1tv69]

💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[@NaraSherko]

No

[@Mercah_koondial]

Lmfaoooooo

[@piboiindahouse5169]

I get that reference.

[@oz_jones]

Or know what a jelster is

[@neonbluepixelator5700]

turbo or no turbo, if coming from 2008, seeing a 4-2 clip like that looks like a strategy way ahead of it's time. Impressive.

[@jakerussell135]

I'm pretty sure that _is_ way ahead of its time. Blazit wasn't used in western speedrunning until runs got to like 4:55 or 4:56

[@rajeshofficial1657]

@@jakerussell135 oh hi didn't expect to see you here lol

[@reesecarlton]

So unfortunate that there's such a disconnect between the western world's and Japan's speedrun communities, some of my favorite runs to watch are from those Japanese communities and I wish it was more accessible to more people

[@RunicSigils]

No you don't. Gatekeeping is always good. Mass appeal and attempts to mass appeal ruin everything. Never ever wish something was more popular, you will only ever be let down.

[@olivernguyen1709]

@@RunicSigils uhh…

[@agent7176]

@@RunicSigils This isn't gatekeeping, this is segregating the SMB speedrun community.

[@metarotta]

@@RunicSigils giant dork take

[@rdococ]

Based, but in this specific situation, SMB speedrunning is so far removed from any kind of important tradition or culture that there's no point in maintaining it.

[@MiniIand]

It's crazy that this run went under the radar for so long, but I'm really glad that it's being brought to the attention of the wider world now! One day I hope we find the tapes for Rodrigo Lopes' FWRs - they're the holy grail of lost SMB1 runs to me

[@AndrewgSpeedruns]

will let you know if they ever come to light

[@juiceala]

Using turbo buttons seem to cause an issue mostly in North Anerican speedrunning since afaik NES controllers did not originally come with turbo buttons over there but they were quite common here in Asia especially with famiclones, most systems came with turbo buttons right off the box.

[@gairisiuil]

but that's not original hardware so under the rules it's not allowed

[@juiceala]

@@gairisiuil I highly doubt using a turbo controller in a game like SMB would have much of an advantage over using a regular controller, it’s no different than playing a PC game with a controller over a keyboard or a PS1 game using a doulshock over an original controller.

[@ParadiseDB7]

​@@gairisiuil but it is though, it's officially licensed original hardware. It's not a modded controller so not sure why you're acting like it is.

[@gairisiuil]

@@ParadiseDB7 yeah im wrong, i looked it up and there were controllers i didnt know about (nes advantage, nes max) but the classic nes controller did not have turbo and in my personal opinion turbo shouldn't be allowed

[@Slender_Man_186]

@@ParadiseDB7 it didn’t originally come with the console is the issue, and a lot of those officially licensed controllers were actually made by third party companies.

[@SvendleBerries]

Minor differences is hardware, software and the way things are timed can make huge differences in speedrunning. Very interesting find, Kosmic :D

[@ZipplyZane]

I'd probably say to put him on the list at his actual time--starting from first movement to hitting the axe. That puts him at just over *5:00**.* Then I'd include an asterisk to and mention the rules he played under and the emulator speed.

[@MeesterTweester]

Even though turbo was allowed in Japan I don't think it should be ranked because of how turbo helped make the 4-2 clip easier.

[@valhapp]

@@MeesterTweester Agreed. And if Turbo weren't used then he shouldn't have taken a time penalty due to 60fps. If he were playing with 65fps and landing the tricks "slightly harder" none of us would be talking about giving him time off the record as a result.

[@Kosmicd12]

​@@valhapp one does not imply the other. If an emulator is inaccurate and plays too fast, you just ban it. If his emulator played at 5fps it obviously wouldn't be okay.

[@technobladeneverdies673]

​@@Kosmicd12 do emulators used today for speed runs also have inaccurate frame rates?

[@MiniIand]

@@technobladeneverdies673 most modern emulators on windows run exactly at NES framerate, which is what all top emulator runners play on. sadly, all mac and most linux emulators afaik still run at 60.000fps for whatever reason

[@DonYagamoth]

My main thought is - speedrunning with turbo should be more standard, it's so much friendlier for your hands. And as long as leaderboards are separated/labeled accordingly, it would be great :)

[@spartacus778]

...or is it? *Vsauce music plays internally*

[@Bismuth9]

Nice sneaky inclusion of ultralag

[@generallyunimportant]

lucky number 83 moment

[@Kosmicd12]

Obv inspired by you fitting carrying a kosha into smw video

[@GTAce99]

As someone who cares a lot about speedrun history, I’m surprised I never watched this run until now. That 4-2 is crazy for 2008.

[@RatikusuCh]

I remember using the NES Max controller to play SMB1 back in my childhood and was totally blown away of how short mario jumped when pressing turbo A. Lets just say I never touched a turbo button in that game afterward.

[@ASwallie65]

love how the intro is a scroll through SMB world record videos... and they're ALL summoningsalt ily Salt

[@rebeccawilliams402]

certainly an impressive run and being potentially the first sub 5 does highlight it above others as it was the final minute barrier. ultimately it would be up to the Mario speedrunning community to decide if compensating for the framerate difference is allowed. even if it were allowed, it would probably end up separated from other runs over turbo usage. In my and many gaming communities, we have whats known as 'officially unofficial'. This run seems like it would be a good fit for that title of officially unofficial first sub 5 minute run.

[@ASE-PRL]

Autofire/Turbo is still permitted in the Japanese arcade scene and most English arcade scene.

[@gairisiuil]

this isn't the arcade scene, this is console speedrunning

[@ASE-PRL]

@@gairisiuil Considering the quote used was "probably still is in some communities out there" Merely stating that yes it's permitted in the arcade scene; I'm well aware that it's not permitted in console speedrunning.

[@litigioussociety4249]

I'm pretty sure, if this was canonized as the first sub 5 run, then Andrew G would be yelling, "Asterisk!"

[@Weaver0x00]

Shout out for shouting out other runners throughout the video, you're great and humble

[@valhapp]

Shout out to shouting out my boy for giving a shout out to the OGs who needed some love. Mad respect.

[@fernatox8099]

Dude that 4-2 is actually insane, caught me off guard

[@agoezwild]

Imagine showing miyamoto what speedruns are like now

[@RoseQuartz692]

I have taught of that for a long time

[@NullScar]

He knows.

[@Nob1ej0n]

Fantastic analysis. I appreciate that you showed how it does and does not compare to other speedruns... You know, the whole point of the video. Haha

[@ThePurpleCheeseMan]

Pretty cool that we're able to bridge the gap between Japan and US speedrunning a little more with today's technology. This was some fascinating history!

[@trueilarim]

Japan and US? And hopefully some more obscure places in the future like Canada, Europe, Australia etc… eh?

[@DArtagnonW]

Wait, so the framerate is different, that means the buses arrive to take you to the next level less frequently, but in Japan the transit is famously more reliable than in the US, so this run is clearly fake

[@Xerdoz]

00:53 Needs the VSAUCE music. (Moon men- Chudnow)

[@shoes4clues955]

"That was the first sub-5... ...or was it?" gives off big vsauce vibes

[@hicknopunk]

I didn't know there was a Turbo Twin Famicom. I love my Red one with an A board inside which I pulled from a Famicom Disk Drive and then re-sold it with a B board.

[@KaceyTime]

this is wild, really glad to see this dug up. would love to know how the runner feels realizing that this old old run turned out to break a major time milestone under western timing rules right under everyone's (including their own) nose because of the framerate

[@johnm1008]

My thoughts on this run are he was given credit for the time he got and even if his time was "corrected" because he was on an emulator his time wouldn't be allowed on some lists because of turbo use. There is a reason that games like SM64 have separate categories for what hardware and what version of the game are used.

[@joelsmith3473]

Official US controllers have turbo as well: the NES Max has a second set of buttons and the behemoth NES Advantage even has customizable frequency. IMO Nintendo was making games with the knowledge that turbo would be used. Disqualifying it on official hardware is like expecting to play Duck Hunt without a Zapper.

[@Kosmicd12]

I don't think that's a very fair comparison lol. Games are definitely not designed around it, and it's a macro, not a necessary controller

[@rodtodgers3077]

I think you'll find that I did the first sub-5 back in '82. I took a photograph and sent it to Walter.

[@Sly88Frye]

You truly are the human encyclopedia that we all need for Super Mario Bros. You just happen to know everything about it and it's awesome! Strange how back in the day this would be frowned upon, but now it's awesome

[@Zalied]

Its crazy how different timing methods change the achievements. A sub 5 was a huge deal but with a slightly different timing method it could be 1s to minutes different. Our sub 5 was intense and crazy but to that run it was a 5;14 great but no achivment

[@Divexi]

Good content as always man, keep up the great Mario content

[@ckellyedits]

Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. I don't know whether it "counts" as the first sub 5 or not, but if it did, I am glad I have seen it now

[@sweatbox128]

i miss darbian man, those smb wr pop off were so good

[@TaIathar]

If the cost of playing on an system with different frame delay is "slightly easier inputs" at the cost of "half-a-second per minute" then I think it's completely reasonable to accept the time as the 5:00.23 The run was "slightly easier" and the achieved time reflects that.

[@MTerrence]

I think the exact same thing. 60.0 fps is a tiny advantage over 60.1 fps; so, too, is the penalty, a mere half a second over five minutes. This would still have been a world record run until Christmas Eve, 2010.

[@aaronburrell3729]

I’m still running at 6 minutes and 45 seconds. I think this is as good as I’ll get.

[@otakubullfrog1665]

An interesting follow up video to this would be to try to contact him to see if he's aware of how he stacked up against the western leaderboard back then, if he still plays now, if he has video of any other runs he's done that Americans likely haven't seen yet, etc.

[@bi9katsu]

Oh...Nostalgic peercast! Marukome was called "Mario Cyborg"

[@viljami.haakana.laulut]

I asked ChatGPT: "Who was the first to beat Super Mario Bros in under five minutes?" Answer: "The first person to beat the original Super Mario Bros game in under five minutes is believed to be the American gamer and speedrunner named Todd Rogers. In 1987, he achieved a time of 4 minutes and 58 seconds, which at the time was considered an impressive feat. However, there have been many other speedrunners who have since beaten that time, and the current world record for completing Super Mario Bros in the fastest time is held by the gamer Kosmic, who completed the game in 4 minutes and 55 seconds in 2018."

[@zerotimeleft]

lmao

[@j.walker6845]

One minor omission, something about a bus…

[@ig2d]

And the search continues for George Mallorey's camera...

[@-Keith-]

Plot twist, Billy Mitchell actually had the first sub 5 minute SMB run, back in 1985. The recording technology of the time was just so shoddy that no footage of the run exists, but 5 other people were there who will back up the claim.

[@Wingsaber]

0:53 I am violently disappointed that you didn't add the Vsauce music after saying "Or was it?"

[@esrohm6460]

well if it where just "there are some minute differences but like this is a 1 hour run so it really didn't matter" but we talk bout a game where it's perfected to the frame so any advantage is massive advantage. he might be really good at the game but you have to ask would he have gotten this time if the tricks where that bit more taxing. 5 minutes aren't along time so there a lot of games over which such a difference will filter out

[@potapoo2012]

A really great video, keep it up man.

[@MrMcAyyy]

Excellent video! I love learning these little details!

[@rickwoods5274]

You know, stuff like this makes me think that leaderboards ought to have some spots orthogonal to all their categories (even the weird ones), for "notable runs that don't cleanly compare". It's fair to say that, for the reasons you mention in this analysis, the run doesn't belong on the any% board, and there's probably not enough of a playerbase using turbo for something like a "with turbo" category (and besides, the number of fragments you introduce if you're willing to do that has no upper bound). But having a metacategory of "notable and therefore noted" would help cement these runs in history without introducing all that fragmentation. Grain of salt though; this is the perspective of an outsider who occasionally peers into this community because it's interesting! I don't have any sort of vested emotional stake.

[@Kosmicd12]

Definitely a good take, and very self aware! I think Saradoc's WR history page is pretty good as it lists basically every notable run that happened through each time period/on each platform

[@kaloncpu57]

Absolutely love a run like this getting talked about. I think it's great to recognize that the skill was clearly there while still keeping official times the way they are. Also, while I definitely don't know enough about runs for this game to say whether turbo is reasonable, I do absolutely think there are communities where it makes sense. Allowing turbo can be great for something like Metroid Dread, where the community isn't so worried about prioritizing mashing as a skill (even though mashing gets through some fights quicker), and allows players to do more runs without worrying about mashing so hard for the extra frames at the cost of their endurance and health of their hands.

[@jacomagames]

Always excited to watch your vids.

[@Toadywo]

now THIS is what hstory classes should be teaching about

[@Caldron]

I'd say that there should be proper validity to まるこめ/Marukome's runs, apart from your explanation. The skill displayed (even using turbo controllers) and the sustained adapted movement with 60 fps, contrary to the normal framerate, shows the dedication and skill he's dominated in the game. Happy to see some japanese speedrunners to have a spotlight these days. いいね、いいね！

[@Adriethyl]

My favorite salt shaker was wrong??!!! No way...

[@FuckYoutubeAndGoogle]

Accept he literally wasn't...

[@adamj93]

I play on an AVS so I'm no stranger to losing time on a 60fps console. I adjusted my runs to save an extra frame rule which would be unnecessary on a real NES. Unfortunately that was the reason my sub 5 run is a 4:59 as opposed to a 4:58, but a sub 5 is a sub 5 and I'm thrilled with it all the same! Plus I'll always know it's really a 4:58!

[@Suprentus]

I don't understand why turbo isn't allowed in western speedrunning given there exist licensed Nintendo controllers with turbo.

[@Kosmicd12]

It is depending on the game. There are no blanket rules in speedrunning. Every game and even category necessitate different rules. People can also play however they want, regardless of leaderboards. Licensed turbo controllers doesn't mean you have to allow it. I think it changes many games dramatically and it's much more interesting to execute with raw skill. Turbo for games with tons of text is great though.

[@calebos268]

5:07 the shade lol

[@mjp121]

It’s weird to me that everyone agrees that speedruns can only be counted with the timing of the console used for the exact reasons listed, but for some reason large swaths of the Mario Kart community will calculate the NTSC time off of PAL and use it on the same boards, making the *slower* console preferred in that community

[@Kosmicd12]

Different games are different. I also think it's a lot different when you're talking about official versions of the game vs inaccurate emulation.

[@JarppaGuru]

0:36 logic and all those other who might do it faster did not even know speedrun was

[@Lovuschka]

A great achievement with two minor issues that make it technically ineligible. In the world of chess problems, this run would receive a "special prize" for being absolutely masterful but outside of the normal competition.

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

“Or was it?… hey, Vsauce, Kosmic here…”

[@HonkeyKongLive]

It definitely deserves to exist in the history of it, and honestly I'd still call it the first sub-5. It's not the first one with MODERN rules, but it's inarguably a non-cheated (meaning no Game Genie or emulation tricks) sub-5.

[@kaldo_kaldo]

It's not really inarguable since some argue that turbo is cheating.

[@MiniIand]

it's also just not a sub 5 - it's a 5:00.233

[@N12015]

@@MiniIand Basically that it was close, BUT has an issue: TURBO. Without turbo it would still be sub 5:01 (5:00.9xx or so) and was arguably the best player at the time, but he defititely saved 1 or 2 framerules due to an skip only turbo would allow in 4-2.

[@joshuahudson2170]

@@kaldo_kaldo It wasn't at the time. The Japanese ruleset was different, and that's the point. We'd DQ it instantly today but in 2008 not so much.

[@MiniIand]

@@N12015 the 4-2 trick isn't turbo only - we do that exact clip in a rom hack called Super Mr Krabs, in 1-2. it's even easier too in smb1, because of the coin that lets you clip further in the wall :)

[@AlvinKazu]

Holy crap.... 7:20.... I remember when a few years ago, people were saying this trick was TAS only..... Then it was a huge deal when Humans started accomplishing it... But in realiyt, he was able to do this, and a shorter jump glitch, in 2008!!? It's wild how this was discovered, I love speedrunning, everything is so awesome in this community with the tiny details.

[@Kosmicd12]

That was like 7 years ago, and not the same trick

[@BallinBoy008]

0:52 really wish the vsauce music kicked in right here 😂

[@AlbertTheGamer-gk7sn]

Also, Mastermind, one of Marionaire's best friends, was a speedrunner who tried to get a 4:59 (however, he stated his runs were 5:2x due to Peercast's rules of timing). He started speedrunning after watching AndrewG's 5:00. After some weeks of speedrunning, he realized he couldn't get a 4:59 and started making movies out of AndrewG's kaizo attempts and Marionaire's TASes. Mastermind's crew channel: www.youtube.com/@sistermindR/videos

[@Those_Weirdos]

Personally, I believe Turbo isn't an issue of an individual run. However, when you're grinding attempts out, turbo lets you bypass some of the hand fatigue that comes with a long game session. THAT, moreso than even in-game individual run advantages, is the big reason to disallow (or consistently allow) turbo.

[@alexandre526]

mmh so that's why my runs on the switch emulator feel different, it runs at 60 fps flat, i'l try to get sub5 on that someday

[@thexbigxgreen]

Congrats on the sponsor, dude!

[@krispyking2450]

that “or was it” made u sound like Vsource

[@pkbarwar]

Man.. I thought you questioned summoning salt's video.

[@boubayaga_]

If it's an official Nintendo released controller then turbo should be allowed, regardless of how much it might impact the run.

[@VectorJW9260]

yes.

[@diegopinon5275]

Nowadays theyd just add an any% turbo category

[@the33rdguy]

​@Diego Pinon I like this idea.

[@Opanker_]

I don't think that's how that works

[@user-zl9vh2xr6b]

It'd lead to allowing only official Nintendo controllers with turbo, and that gives Nintendo business, and that's not okay.

[@Zalied]

Something modern speedrunning has solved (loosely) as globalization continues to happen is the scenes blending more and more especially with newer games. It's not perfect and still has many disconnects but every year it gets a little easier to keep track of what's going on all over

[@DrabekNewburn]

It would be easy enough to say "runs which used turbo before some date are grandfathered in" if you want to count this run, as it doesn't significantly disrupt the rankings.

[@gairisiuil]

his 4-2 with turbo saved a framerule he wouldn't have had otherwise (and that framerule crosses the sub 5 barrier), and if we count this run into the books it would dislodge andrewg's first sub5, which would make everyone cry. so it's safe to say i think the western community would prefer if this run wasnt included.

[@FuckYoutubeAndGoogle]

​@@gairisiuil It's literally not sub 5 even with all the caveats made in the video. That said my personal opinion is that Turbo is the devil, so whatever.

[@BasementDweller_]

Love hearing these history videos.

[@goldenhog]

i guess that was the first turbo/low framerate% sub 5 run

[@roddraft3466]

0:54 vsause music where??

[@willbohland3698]

I'm surprised the military hasn't drafted you guys. I guess we're not quite there yet.

[@RexMan04]

0:54 VSauce music should have played here

[@linkthehero8431]

My fastest SMB1 time was 6m12s on this emulator 3DSen PC. It may have been faster if I wasn't too busy gawking at the fact that the original ROM file was being rendered using 3D object and environment models. Greatest ten bucks I ever spent.

[@Robert_D_Mercer]

Bruh... I remember amazing everybody back in 2000 beating super mario world in 15 mins >_> Like the skill gap has changed so greatly; but I guess we werent fighting for the record for there were already unknown world records set.

[@Nightcaat]

My heart almost broke thinking AndrewG no longer had the first sub 5. Definitely an interesting point in SMB history. Great video!

[@valhapp]

AndrewG is amazing, but it also feels fairly cancerous and protectionist to _want_ him to hold a record regardless of facts. If it shook out that some unknown Japanese guy _did_ actually get sub-5 before AndrewG then favoritism shouldn't be excluding the person of their just credit.

[@1ByteUniverse]

@@valhapp nightcat just said their heart almost broke, probably just because they like andrew g. They didnt say anything about denying facts or not giving credit, they were just upset that something they thought was true might have been incorrect, which is fairly reasonable and hardly 'cancerous'.

[@Nightcaat]

@@1ByteUniverse This is correct. I’ve been keeping up with SMB1 speedrunning since I was 11, so it’s been there for around 40% of my life. It would be crazy if a historical milestone in such a popular speedgame turned out to be wrong. The run absolutely deserves at least a passing mention though as it is impressive for its time.

[@valhapp]

@@1ByteUniverse Obviously. Favoritism leads to bias.

[@kristsostad7571]

@@valhapp water is wet

[@MxMaker]

Interesting takle on the story of speedruning, where is the challenger now?

[@braydenmbve545]

Your content always makes my day perfect!

[@JorgetePanete]

you absolute legend

[@doctorduck4844]

i thought his run was legit even with turbo until the 4-2 wall clip. while is was very cool, the left flicks for wall bumps are needed in my opinion. but thats just my take.

[@Kosmicd12]

He only uses turbo for A/B, not for left

[@willie333b]

When 0.09881389744051552 frames per second make a difference 👀

[@Candycrime1982]

I’ve done that clip doing bottom clip on accident

[@oskard3516]

you make epic videos

[@theoryjoe1451]

If it matters to know, I might buy that beard trimmer in your ad.

[@GildonUser]

I think it would be cool if he got credit, but on a separate category

[@DaveChurchill]

I'm very disappointed in the lack of Kosmic shocked face in the thumbnail. Wasted opportunity! :D

[@resecle]

HERE WHEN THIS WAS LESS THAN 1000 VIEWS TICKET

[@o2Tenka]

Amazing vid but...... Omg Dan Salvato is a patreon!

[@TheAmazingCloov]

Amazing!

[@elliottave46]

Great video

[@garystinten9339]

Still waiting for the perfect run..

[@davidevans5804]

Did Spilly Mitcard get a window for pacmam

[@zanderbricks8701]

Kosmic do you have any plans to attempt a 500-point run

[@danemartin5288]

Brilliant video