Kreia's Conundrums - The Virtues of Chaos

[@PapitoQinn]

For those who missed it. I released a video that's basically a Kreia's Conundrums a few months ago On Max Derrat's channel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o16liGSfa7CfapI For those who want to watch the Discord Discussion of this KC: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6qxZX-ZarN3qs0 For those who want to join in on the Discord Discussion: discord.gg/mTcTGFs Thanks again for watching! Like and subscribe for more and I would really appreciate it if you share the video.

[@kel3747]

Bravo. The editing was superb and I loved your analysis on the subject. I agree, even vitiate from swtor says something similar like the purpose of the force is conflict.

[@chrismoore7365]

One of the sayings I've developed over the years is this: "Fate only exists in the past tense..."

[@PapitoQinn]

@@chrismoore7365 Yeah, let's hope so.

[@100StarWars]

"There's no fate, but what we make for ourselves"

[@mikaelantonkurki]

That kind of sounds like something george lucas said about the force.

[@breecegriffith5896]

It’s a terminator 2 quote. Favorite movie of all time.

[@zethuzulu4704]

A few months back, I entered a chat, during one of Papito's gaming livestreams. I asked if he was going to make more Kreia's Conundrums, and he said he was. I'm glad to see one of these again.

[@PapitoQinn]

I'm a man of my word.

[@lobiak6124]

Thank you very much for another conundrum, I missed it so much

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks! So did I.

[@Noxims47314]

The heart of the actual Starwars, finally revealed and properly shared. Conflict, as abhorrent as it is, shapes and redefines life. strife and suffering are the whetstones that sharpen individuals to become either the best or the worst of themselves. and with what defines them, was it their choices? was it their destiny? was it the actions of others? or the force? You, are the battleground. In the dying days of this franchise it is good to see something like this video show up to remind me just why i used to love it so very much.

[@daniel_the_enlightened1740]

A surprise to be sure but a welcome one

[@CD-Freedom]

This will be a day long remembered.

[@somerandomnesspoo8467]

"Is everything determined with a set fate or is everything random?" It doesn't matter, even if it's predetermined, life happens as if it's all random.

[@bullseye5262]

Predetermination, fate, destiny… are arguably elements of chaos Qinn lol

[@monkeycat451]

Also, faith doesn't require fate to exist

[@murilopenagoncalves3831]

How so?

[@silentsmokeNIN]

Aaahhhh *cough cough* another conundrum for my collection.

[@dianabarnett6886]

Yeah, I voted Chaos. What Kreia seeks above all else is freedom.

[@PapitoQinn]

Yes. I mentioned you today in the live stream discussion. I think you were one of only 2 people in the comments who agreed with me. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[@dianabarnett6886]

@@PapitoQinn I'm honored!

[@theblasteffect4499]

@@PapitoQinn what are your feelings towards someone when they disagree with you? Obviously it is a good feeling for someone to agree with you, but is it out of influence or the truth? That's what's not known? So what do you feel towards someone when they disagree with you?

[@PapitoQinn]

@@theblasteffect4499 Kinda depends on what they're disagreeing with me on. Obviously if it's something important and it's someone I care about then I'll have an issue with it. If it's not important, like they interpreted Kreia differently then it is what it is.

[@smile-tl9in]

I am surprised more people tought Kreia was a force of order. I mean, seriously ? A being that wants to almost genocide the galaxy to end the force, and with it fate ? To finally have freedom ? A being of order ?!

[@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme]

There's Order both beneficial and detrimental, then there's a person's personal perspective on Order. To fulfill ones personal vision of order, people in the real world and in fiction have done deplorable things to see that vision through. Genocide or planetary devastation is not off the table. Like I said people view order differently, and chaos always gets demonized as an inherent evil.

[@jordansmith6959]

When I saw this I freaked out and bought wine and all the appropriate party thingys just to sit down and watch lol. As always it blew my mind, inspiring work:)

[@PapitoQinn]

Light some candles, burn some incense. Make a whole evening out of it. :)

[@Ravenhill171]

I'm bingewatching your conundrum videos and all your words could come from my mouth! Balance in the force, freedom through chaos etc., manpiulation, fate and order (which I always had a problem with)... That's why Kreia just touched my soul so deeply and fascinates me to this day. To achieve anything you want by yourself without depending on outer circumstances. And I immensly disklike the idea of fate dictating anyones lifes outcome.

[@filikasnicadori1827]

Mom, Dad wake up!, Papito will upload a Kreia Video!

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

Woohoo! She's back!

[@GeriatricFan1963]

Papito you would absolutely love Douglas Adams' novel Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, which features a detective who uses chance, randomness and chaos to solve cases; in short it deals with a lot of the same themes you mention here. (Infact Dirk is a rather Kreia-like and manipulative character)

[@PapitoQinn]

Alright, I made a note of it. Hopefully I get to read it some day. Thanks for the recommendation.

[@tanya-789]

Heeeey, new conundrum!!! I rewatch your playlist from time to time, so new addition is always welcome!

[@therealjoediaz]

I love your content so much! Especially your KOTOR stuf

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks, homie! I love the watch that you watch my content.

[@elfather2045]

I really apreaciate and enjoy this kind of videos, and i really hope that you can continue to makes this wonderful work, because this videos of you talking of your perspectis about certains videogames or making analyses are my favorites .

[@luisaguilar2416]

Thank You !!!! We missed this videos, great job my friend.

[@beskamir5977]

I may be wrong on this since it's been a while since I delved deeply into my own faith's fundamentals but Christianity often views satan as an agent of chaos while God is often presented as bringing order. Yet despite often representing order God doesn't just impose his will on the universe and force everyone to obey him. Instead he allows all of us to have a free will. So that we can choose who's order or chaos we wish to endorse and when. I suppose it's similar to how there can't really be meaningful right choices without equally meaningful wrong choices. Meaning that you can't really have meaningful choices for order without being able to choose a chaos or someone else's version of order.

[@Noxims47314]

Perhaps that is what represents Satan's rebellion against God, that before Lucifer struck out there was no real meaningful choices or difference to a decision, it was all order. all stasis, no room to grow or change, then came and went the rebellion and Chaos was born, and became its polar opposite and forced a new measure of balance to exist. I often find it strange (and am speaking as a non-religious raised person here.) how much in detail we are taught of and made to understand hell, and the suffering that leads to it, causes it and perpetuates it. but we hardly know the real meaning of order and peace, of the Heaven we all so dearly want and crave.

[@beskamir5977]

@@Noxims47314 I'm fairly sure the rebellion happened after humans were created and we were given free will from day one even if there might not have been a rebellion yet. I mean, it's obvious that satan's a bad guy by the time Adam and Eve get kicked out of the garden but I don't think God would have considered his creation good if all hell was breaking loose and a third of his angels were in open rebellion. Unless that was the point/goal to begin with which I suppose could be a valid interpretation too. He would/should have known that was going to happen anyway or else he's not all knowing. Regarding people not understanding what hell or heaven are. I agree, most people don't seem to put much individual thought into things. I try not to be like that but probably still am to an extent. Like when it comes to my own interpretation of hell/heaven are, I still end up drawing from stuff I've heard other people suggesting and end up with these definitions: Hell = Eternally separated from God (technically being dead forever would also qualify so I'm not sure it even has to be eternal in the endless pain and suffering sense) Heaven = Eternally in the presence of God much like how Adam and Eve were in God's presence while they were still in Eden.

[@Echani3007]

A Kreia's conundrum is 2022? bro thanks

[@PapitoQinn]

Absolutely. And beyond.

[@alexanderdiaz4417]

I’ve been looking forward to this 🤩

[@ravendelacour1917]

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

[@Icehead2.0]

Ah man how I missed this! Great vid Qinn!

[@PapitoQinn]

Like I said on Discord: Thank you very much!

[@dreadrath]

Damn good video. Top work as always Papito. Ahh how I've missed these conundrums vids.

[@justinlinarez6757]

I like how you bring up that chaos by itself isn't evil. However, I've come to believe that our reality is a creation of BOTH chaos and order. It's a paradox. The key to perfection is imperfection. Those imperfections allow for flexibility, both in our universe and in society. This flexibility enables both self correction and/or adaptability. As for The Force, while it clearly has a will of its own, I've never been able to see it as some godly being like in Christianity. To me, it seemed to operate like a body without a brain. If something is wrong inside the body, the body will try to regulate itself to self correct the problem. But there is no puppet master choosing which cells will do the work. In the star wars universe, you can still choose for yourself what to do. Answer to the call of The Force or deny it. It may be a coincidence, but in episode 4 Obi-Wan said to Luke... Obi-Wan: Remember, a jedi can feel The Force flowing through him. Luke: You mean it controls your actions? Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands. In the end, I don't think The Force can control you unless you willingly give yourself over to it. An example of this is when Obi-Wan himself surrendered to the will of The Force in his fight against Grievous in the books. Check out the audio for that fight if you've never heard it, it's awesome.

[@SiNCry0]

The future is predetermined by the personality/character of those who shape it.

[@Blastanker]

Thanks!

[@PapitoQinn]

No, man. Thank YOU! This is how to start the year.

[@gonkdroid8279]

Great Kreia video as always!

[@JC-zj2is]

Great video 👌

[@MrChaosAdam]

You are right. The Force is the natural order of things, and Kreia wants to end that. She failed and thats a good thing though.

[@shadowbeast2276]

Great video, loved it 👍

[@PapitoQinn]

Thank you. Share it with people if you can. I'd really appreciate it.

[@santiagobarrero7066]

I've been thinking that the force is not as perfect and omnipotent as it is said to be, if so the force should have had some way to foresee that the wounds such as the exile, nihilus and sion would be created, but it did nothing to prevent em to exist, I believe that they were and example of how the force commited mistakes and put itself in danger

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Yeah, Harmony FTW!!! That aside, 8:22 sure shares my viewpoint on the points of Star Wars and any other work with this vs. that thematics. One is without the order, so to speak, or there will be an otherwise. (Ooh, nice, you start things out with a Shadowrun: Dragonfall music piece, with some from the Hong Kong installment.)

[@PapitoQinn]

Yes. I used Greed Zenith from Shadowrun Dragonfall and Prosperity from Shadowrun Hong Kong.

[@Sharpy_Duro]

Wow

[@PapitoQinn]

[@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme]

Damn Good Video.

[@GuilhermeOliveira-ml3cj]

Jeez I missed so much, you should do more videos explaining philosophical themes using your voice :)

[@felixdumbravescu2725]

I sure wish Star Wars would try again to debate philosophy not just politics. I know it was supposed to be originally just fun silly entertainment or seen as such, but nothing wrong with developing and having characters question how things work. Imagine if Hideo Kojima tried to make a Star Wars game in the spirit of Metal Gear Solid, and have both sides not being obviously good or evil.

[@PapitoQinn]

Kojima's a big movie buff. Originally he wanted to be a movie director. But I don't know what he thinks about Star Wars though. It'd be interesting to hear I suppose.

[@imgonnasneezeachoo]

PAPITO POSTED BABE WAKE UP LETS GOOOOOOOOOOO

[@volasternmasq2746]

I believe in a world of Freedom, but one where there are no victims. There must be order where people can make their own choices, but if they choose to hurt someone else, they cannot. My perfect world is one where Angels stop every bullet and blade that strikes the innocent. Order is important, but protection is the most important thing. In an imperfect world Protection can be enforced through Order. Chaos can never protect someone. Chaos will only bring randomness and possibly destruction. Anarchy allows people to hurt and be hurt. Only through Order can people be safe from the evil actions of others. Also, as a Brit, shout out for the 40k reference!

[@volasternmasq2746]

Justice, fairness, all come from order. A corrupt order is not order at all. It is Chaos wearing a mask. True order must by definition uphold all true justice and fairness, and does not require a limiting of freedom. I do not want to live in a world where someone can attack me and steal, destroy or kill everything that matters to me. The world is imperfect but we must trust in a grand ideal, of Democracy, Liberty and Freedom, protected by Order.

[@PapitoQinn]

"True order must by definition uphold all true justice and fairness, and does not require a limiting of freedom." But you are limiting freedom. In your world people do not have to the freedom to victimize, to be victims, to be violent, to steal, destroy or kill. Remember that a freedom isn't just: "Something I like."

[@volasternmasq2746]

@Papito Qinn And that is my point. There is no value in Victimization. Absolute Freedom is dangerous because it is purely destructive. Nothing constructive is gained through destruction. Freedom isn't a yes or no thing. We can have the freedom to choose our lunch, or the freedom to complain about things we don't like, and there is no harm in this. This is why I hate Anarchists and Anarchy, because you cannot build when everyone has the Freedom to tear down what you build. As long as what you build does no harm then all is well, which is why I say I value Protection because limiting Freedom not only limits Chaos it also limits Order. It may be more efficient in Order to kill 1000 people to make the lives of 100000 people easier, but if we value Protection then this is not permitted. Unlimited Freedom will never result in a society that travels to the stars or builds a Large Hadron Colider. We need Order, but as I day that order can be corrupted and abused, so in my perfect world we have absolute Freedom provided it does no harm, a small carve out, enforced by Order. In a theological world this is enforced by Angels, ensuring that it is possible to make a choice, but the consequences are not felt by the victim because the victim does not want to feel the consequences, nor should they.

[@simon556able]

Angels would be your slaves then, wouldn't they be? A protection bubble is what you seek.

[@volasternmasq2746]

@simon556able Why do the Angels need to be conscious? Is a Toaster a slave? The Angels don't need free-will, they just need to be extensions of the Divine in the material realm. It could just be the Hand of God, I said Angels because the imagery works. It could just happen without any visible element. And it's not a bubble, it's just an interruption of Cause and Effect. There is the Cause, the choice, but the effect, the harm (death, theft, abuse etc) does not materialize. It does not protect people from their own actions on them selves. If you throw yourself off a building you will hit the floor and die. It just stops someone pushing you.

[@BendakOGStarkiller]

Yes,

[@TKA001]

If Kreia believes conflict is a good thing and is necessary for growth, then she should be glad the Force exists, because its light and dark sides bring people into conflict.

[@PapitoQinn]

Conflict is not defined as being inherently violent.

[@mikaelantonkurki]

@@PapitoQinn then i would hesitate to call it conflict.

[@TKA001]

@@PapitoQinn What does that have to do with it?

[@PapitoQinn]

@@TKA001 There's many forms of conflict. A verbal argument between people is one form of nonviolent conflict. With the Force the results we've had was light and dark consistently springing up and resulting in galaxy wide wars with millions dying at a time. The worst part is that there's nothing that people could learn in order to avoid or even mitigate it. Or they learned the wrong lesson and the perpetuation continued. Kreia was the one person who had an idea on how to stop it.

[@TKA001]

​@@PapitoQinn Sometimes words are not enough to resolve people's differences, and employing literal force is the necessary and just option. Kreia obviously recognizes that, since she's got nothing but praise for Revan going to war with the Mandalorians. About those wars between light- and dark-siders: there were around five or six, over a span of 20,000 years, up until the time Kreia came along. None of those wars lasted more than a century, and between them the civilized galaxy was apparently either at peace or involved with other conflicts that didn't have much of anything to do with Jedi or Sith. Kreia's myopic focus on those wars - and the implication that they're somehow categorically unacceptable, unlike "normal" ones - has no basis in her philosophy of life. It's really about her personal grudges against the Jedi and Sith for rejecting her. Even if it were possible to kill the Force, and doing so just meant nobody got supernatural powers anymore - do you seriously think that would make any difference in the grand scheme of things? What would change? People in Star Wars are fundamentally the same as in real life. They have the same propensity toward vice, conquest, and tyranny. Look at Saul Karath or Tarkin. The Star Wars lore is loaded with characters who know nothing about the Force but are just as wicked as practically any Sith.

[@mikaelantonkurki]

Wait i thought George said there was free will with the force?

[@PapitoQinn]

And KoTOR 2's analyses of the Force and how it works threw a wrench in that statement.

[@mikaelantonkurki]

@@PapitoQinn Well i can't find those conclusions from kotor 2. To me Kreia while she does make very good points is fundamentally wrong

[@PapitoQinn]

@@mikaelantonkurki Because George Lucas says so?

[@mikaelantonkurki]

@@PapitoQinn Not just george. Obi-wan implies it in Episode 4. Versus series EU fans (jensaarai 1 and Evan nova 95 etc.) say so. Unless you were aware george said. "Controls individuals but we have free will, we have destiny and if we want to follow it, we live for a reason and must discover what it is". Sure the force is at least a semi-sentient entity that seeks balance but it at best interferes with the sentients of the galaxy. Again i have not seen any definitive argument in kotor 2 that force is some kind of all dominating force that enforces some kind of determenist on everyone.

[@PapitoQinn]

@@mikaelantonkurki Then I guess we disagree. "Controls individuals but we have free will." That's an inherent contradiction. We have a destiny but we can choose to follow it. That means there is no so such thing as destiny. In which case the Force controls no one? Look no one's perfect. In KoTOR 2 Chris Avellone was just willing to analyze Star Wars and question some things that are kind of weird.

[@firekin5624]

I can't agree that Kreia in ultimately an agent of chaos at her core. She is one relative to Star Wars universe, because it's heavily rooted in a very unsatisfactory type of order. Also, I don't see her worshipping any chaos gods, or any gods at all for that matter, that's really anti-Kreia behavior. I would however agree that Tzeench would develop an interest in her.

[@PapitoQinn]

At her core? No. But in this instance, in this story, with this plan? It's to introduce chaos. And no she wouldn't worship any Gods. That's why I added: "and somehow worshipped one" then it would be Tzeench in my opinion.

[@TKA001]

Kreia's only deity is herself.