Lackawanna Cut Off - Part 14: Farewell to the Cut-Off (1979-1984)

[@yardmstr]

Larry Malski is a hero! His work and collaboration has persevered, as he even mentioned in your excellent interview, an important heritage of railroading and vital rail link that would have otherwise succumbed to being lost forever. Thank God for Larry Malski and other visionaries who make our dream of a NJ to NE PA restoration a possibility. Thanks to you Chuck for your really good journalism and documentation of this once great link. Looking forward to the next installment.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

yardmstr, thank you, for your very supportive comments. I absolutely agree about Larry Malski; I don't know what we would do without him in this effort.

[@MrSouthwestplumber]

so much history. thank you for the time you put into these videos the history is amazing i hope it all comes back together

[@mister_fjk1972]

Well Done Chuck! Great historical easy to understand series showcasing amazing works of railroad engineering (and vision) that still stand magnificently to this day. And witty storytelling woven in too with the station stops, including the FDR "alternate route" segment - Classic!

[@rafaelliam471]

you all prolly dont care but does any of you know of a way to get back into an Instagram account..? I was stupid lost my login password. I love any help you can give me!

[@elishajoaquin218]

@Rafael Liam Instablaster ;)

[@rafaelliam471]

@Elisha Joaquin i really appreciate your reply. I found the site thru google and I'm waiting for the hacking stuff atm. Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.

[@rafaelliam471]

@Elisha Joaquin It did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D Thanks so much, you saved my account :D

[@elishajoaquin218]

@Rafael Liam You are welcome :D

[@tobyschwartzman4995]

Superb interview. He was delicate in his allusion to Conrail's prep work preceding abandonment, namely "encouraging" shippers to relocate. I would love to hear more about that. I've gathered elsewhere that Conrail's actions here crossed over into misconduct, or at best, not what Congress probably envisioned as the company's purpose, but I never heard specifics. Nice work documenting this, I await the rest of the series.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

I'll defer to Larry on that point...but I think his characterization of Conrail's intent needs no further elaboration.

[@1940limited]

I remember International Boiler works in E. Stroudsburg trying to preserve rail service as he need it and had nowhere else to go. He ultimately closed his operation.

[@tobyschwartzman4995]

Sure, and I don't doubt that Larry characterized them correctly. But I'm interested in hearing specifics. By what methods did Conrail clear out the shippers?

[@tobyschwartzman4995]

Larry says: "And I'll leave it at that." Quite a bit behind that!

[@1940limited]

At least two shippers remained throughout all the turmoil on the PA side. There's factory in Delaware Water Gap that's operated non stop for decades. Hughes Printing in E. Stroudsburg continued receiving carloads of paper until they closed. By then Delaware-Lackawanna had been created. At one time there was talk of Morristown & Erie operating the cutoff to PA. Obviously that never came about.

[@anthonywalsh2164]

Fascinating history of the efforts to save this line. Thanks for the interview.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@talvalon999]

I used to work for Conrail in the 80’s and I can tell you that they couldn’t get rid of or tear up track fast enough. That goes for people too. It was awful to watch. When I asked my bosses they said it’s simply a matter of survival, or we have another cheaper route to the same place, or we need to cut costs. I said what about the businesses we serve on that particular line and their answer was not enough waybill generation for us. Some of the routes were sold to short lines. I understand some of it but it was terrible to watch. A line of track is a precious thing, it’s a right of way that possibly can never be replaced. Every single line should be protected forever. It’s a gift from our forefathers that we cannot waste. Thank you people for resurrecting the cut off. I can’t wait for it to open.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

If anyone should understand how difficult it is to undo what Conrail has done, it would be you. Thank you for your cogent explanation.

[@ericzerkle8486]

They sure did a number here in Indiana to almost the entire PRR system, and a lesser extent, parts of the old Big 4...

[@1940limited]

Thanks for another great episode in your cut-off series. The line in the Poconos was saved, but only one track. If memory serves me correctly, Conrail single tracked it about the same time they pulled the cut-off. I remember the rail train in Cresco. This was right after a deal with Monroe Country to buy the line for 7 million fell through. Monroe County Commissioners and Conrail personnel hi-railed the cutoff shortly before the tracks were pulled. The eastbound track is in place to Mt. Pocono, then it's connected to the former west bound line to Scranton. All the signal systems were torn out, too. We also lost the Mountainhome Branch, which left the west bound main at Cresco. Contrail left no stone unturned. There's still some double main line in E. Stroudsburg, but not much. Some double track exists around Nay aug Tunnel and is used for storage of D-L cars. An occasional empty signal bridge appears here and there between E. Burg and Scranton. There is one business that has survived all the turmoil with the railroad since the 1950s. I don't know its name, but it's under Rt. 80 in the gap and has always had rail service. I'm guessing Conrail continued to service it from the coal trains that went to Portland. Now D-L serves them and many new businesses along the way. At one time I thought we were going to lose it all in PA, but fortunately, it didn't happen.

[@kennyp507]

I'm not a railroad buff in the least bit, at least I thought I was not, I started watching this history series about 2 weeks ago, living in Sussex Co all my life, I have seen the cut off growing up and always wanted to know its story, I just happened to stumble onto this series and was sucked in big time, thank you for such a great historical documentary, I have referred this video to most of my friends and family, I have learned so much. In many ways the cut off is a symbol of a larger issue in America today, money rules infrastructure, the cut off is just a small snip it of our roads, utilities, and the politics that affect there overall well being which directly effects each and every one of us. The bad deal to sell a portion of the boonton loop to NJ for rt80 and the ripple affect it had just for short term cash flow, we are seeing this today with the possibility of some of our busiest highways being sold to private agencies.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Kenny, I'm so glad to hear that you've enjoyed the series so far. There's a lot more to come. I also appreciate you "spreading the word".

[@1940limited]

Yes, it's too bad EL sold part of its right of way for Rt. 80. That may well have been what ultimately killed the line through northeastern NJ and PA.

[@kennyp507]

Yea but the light isn't totally off yet, one can easily propose a line on the NYSW to Sparta junction then reconnect to port and run to the river

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Kenny P, not sure what you’re proposing. The NYS&W was looked at during the 1990s for passenger service. NIMBYs towards the end of the line managed to kill it. The service would have been slow and parallel Route 23 would probably have been a better alternative. Not sure what you’re referring to in “port”. There are no active proposals that I’m aware of for any of that.

[@thomaswalsh5097]

All the best to you and yours in the new year.

[@ginogalante]

Destroying the cut off was a crime against railfan humanity.

[@funisafoot]

From Port Morris Junction west to the Delaware Water Gap, were there ever any freight customers significant enough to require spur tracks? (Confession: I have not watched any of the 13 previous parts in this video series; maybe I could find the answer in one of those.) I'm guessing we won't see any freight on the reopened Cutoff in New Jersey, except maybe in case of an emergency detour. Also: I'm guessing NJ Transit will be ready to pay for Positive Train Control east of the Water Gap, but from there west to Scranton, "someone" will need to pay for PTC -- and for other capital items, and operating costs.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Each of the three stations--Greendell, Johnsonburg and Blairstown--had sidings, actually multiple sidings. But there was no spur per se off of the Cut-Off separate from the station locations.

[@funisafoot]

So I guess there's little or no chance there will be any freight customers along the route. I was thinking NJT could get a bit of income from allowing a short line operator to develop customers and serve them at night when the passenger trains clear.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Even from the farm supply perspective, that business is gone, long gone. Even using the rosiest of projections, I just don't see why such a customer would pick the Cut-Off to establish a business.

[@ericzerkle8486]

I remember seeing Conrail rip out track here in Indiana and it was gutt wrenching. 1979 to about 1985, they ripped up whatever they could!!!!!

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Yes, they did. And typically it was from predecessor railroads in which they had no financial interest in, even though all of those railroads' assets had been conveyed into Conrail. It was a huge scam perpetrated on the American people. I hope Dick Hasselman is rotting in Hell.

[@christophers.o622]

The New Jersey cutoff needs to be fully restored because I-80/I-380 are at the saturation point between Scranton & the New York/Newark,NJ metro area. Passenger/Commuter train service is needed between Scranton & the New York/Newark,NJ metro area. It is also needed between Scranton & Philadelphia as well. The Northeast extension of the Pennsylvania Turnpike/Blue route(I-476) & I-76-the Skuylkill parking lot are already saturated with traffic.

[@1575murray]

What transit agency would you suggest to operate the service? NJ Transit would not want to fund or operate any service that serves any place other than in New Jersey. Same goes for Pennsylvania as far as operating any service which makes stops in NJ. Amtrak is not in the commuter business and given its chronic funding issues I don't think it is a good choice anyway. I agree that rail service to that part of Pennsylvania and adjacent areas in New Jersey would have many benefits to the residents as far as reducing traffic congestion and increasing energy efficiency.

[@1940limited]

I've often wondered if EL could have hung onto the Lake cities a year longer, maybe they could have turned it over to Amtrak which would have preserved the line to Scranton although Amtrak may have ultimately discontinued the train but perhaps it would have been a stay of execution.

[@_SP64_]

Late comment: NJT might've take over the line like they did with the Morris and Essex and the Montclair-Boonton Line

[@1940limited]

I remember seeing the switch at Slateford Jct. blocked with a large wedge of wood so access to the cutoff was not possible. At that time not all of the cutoff tracks had been removed.

[@UTubeGlennAR]

:} My forteenth well deserved and gratefully given Thank You Mr. Walsh n staff...... :}

[@cartdauria6538]

Grew up in Port Morris... Nice work Chuck. I have the head light off of steam locomotive #1116 from the port Morris yard built in 1922. Not sure if you knew my father cart Sr.

[@cartdauria6538]

I also have loads of pictures I could share with you.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

If your dad was a member of the Netcong-Port Morris museum group back in the late-1990s, yes, I knew your dad!

[@LackawannaCutOff]

And I’d love to see the photos!

[@cartdauria6538]

Chuck Walsh feel free to call me Chuck... I live in Florida now. 321-960-1083

[@cartdauria6538]

I'm seriously thinking before I pass I would love the museum to have some of the artifacts that I have in my possession from my father and truly believe they belong there in your Museum.

[@DEnsminger100]

Once again, excellent work Chuck! By the way, I did hear the word 'tank' didn't I...??

[@LackawannaCutOff]

You did.

[@scottpetrone6284]

Very nice work Chuck, done eloquently. When do you suppose we'll see the next episode? Regarding the New Jersey Transit current work on the cutoff at what stage are they at? Last I heard they were having a problem about a culvert if I'm not mistaken. Do you think they can milk this even longer or is it going to happen soon. This whole thing is a tragedy and this is why we must push our politicians and the powers-that-be to get these things completed. Bravo Zulu Chuck!

[@LackawannaCutOff]

I'm shooting for sometime in January, February the latest. I'll address NJ Transit in the episode after the next one. They say 2020 to start running trains. We'll see.

[@1940limited]

I was told 2019 for completion, but don't quote me.

[@rontroy3843]

What are the adding, one mile average per year? Another century and it might be restored?

[@LackawannaCutOff]

You can't think in those terms. If this were an easy thing to do, it would be happening everywhere.

[@1940limited]

It's just too bad we lost it in the first place. Nancy Schukatis tried to save it. She almost made it.

[@yardmstr]

Going back through the series is fun. Something I’m curious about after seeing this again: wondering why the moved a plow across the line with zero traffic at the time? Wondering where they even found a qualified crew at that point?

[@bigsteve973]

It would be cool.if you put a video together with all the old pictures of the cut off

[@LackawannaCutOff]

bigsteve973, Part 10, Building the Cut-Off comes the closest with about 150 photos.

[@rent-amuse5405]

I grew up in Scranton and played basketball by those train tracks as a kid in the 90's. I never knew it had that much history to it. interesting....

[@mattsmocs3281]

I know I am asking early but what about steamtown? Would the trains still be able to serve the stops and possibly run over the new track for longer trips with the faster equipment?

[@LackawannaCutOff]

It is a bit premature...but I doubt that NJT would allow non-compliant equipment on their railroad. But Steamtown would still be able to run to the Water Gap. East of there, I doubt it. Even 614 had cab signals installed back in the 90s in order to run over NJ Transit. The requirements are even more onerous now with PTC coming on line.

[@mattsmocs3281]

Chuck Walsh alright. The major issue is that the equipment is simply beyond modern ability. Plus some of the stations and passing sidings are essentially in NJT way and could mean a end to many communities big thing. When we bring the steam loco or even the diesel trips up the whole town is there cause it is a big event. And if the trains can’t get to these stations or even be feasible to head back. Then these towns would not have as large of a crowd and the station society’s would struggle to a point of shuttering. I believe in PTC we can have the equipment for its age be exempt. I know the ARHS F units are exempt due to there pre 1950 production dates. So maybe the steam and early diesels can still work.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Matt`s Mocs, I’m not an expert in waivers to existing regulations for running legacy non-complying equipment, and perhaps such a provision might be feasible in an operating agreement if Pennsylvania were to underwrite the insurance, but it ultimately would be up to NJ Transit to decide. Based on their past policy decisions, I’m not optimistic. Consider the fact that if NJT were to allow Steamtown to run trains over the Cut-Off what other requests might they get from other sources. There may be still a way to pull this off after all, but let’s get the tracks going first and we’ll deal with these possibilities then.

[@Ken_in_Wisconsin]

Really enjoying this series Chuck. Keep it going. I'm curious about the Amtrak run. I remember reading at the time that conrail had physically removed a rail to prevent them from running it - and indeed in the photo at 48:54 you can see a rail has been removed. What is the story behind that?

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Conrail did remove rail at Port Morris and spiked the switch at Slateford. I don't believe the rail was removed specifically to prevent Amtrak from running, although a request was made to Conrail to put it back for the run, but they refused.

[@Ken_in_Wisconsin]

Ok that sounds like what I heard, although I didn't know the entire context at the time. Was it Amtrak's idea to make the demonstration run? And am I correct that the thinking was that with the publicity from such a trip that perhaps the state(s) might reconsider saving the cutoff? (I'm also assuming that conrail had no choice but to let Amtrak on the line due to compelled access?)

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Amtrak was "asked" to run the train. And, yes, I don't believe Conrail could have blocked the run unless the trackage was deemed unsafe to run on.

[@Ken_in_Wisconsin]

Thanks Chuck. This is fascinating stuff. I'm looking forward to your next episode. Oh and by the way - thank you for turning me onto Spencer Albee. I never would have heard of him otherwise. I will never be able to listen to "Wait Through The War" without thinking of the cutoff. :)

[@LackawannaCutOff]

I "found" him by accident. The song is at the end of the movie, "Night of the Living Deb". Silly movie, but great song.

[@EJStratMan1]

Yes!!

[@dunbar01]

Are there any plans to restore any other abandoned lines in northern nj. There are a bunch of old beds in Sussex and Warren and Morris also. Would like to see some of them come back .

[@LackawannaCutOff]

The Cut-Off is the only one that I'm aware of that is being actively pursued in Northern NJ.

[@1940limited]

It would be nice to see the Sussex Branch come back, but it's been abandoned long ago and tracks removed. As was explained in this video, short of a miracle, that's the end of it.

[@dunbar01]

If thats the line that runs from the old limecrest quarry area through andover/ allamuchy/ great meadows, etc area; than not all of the track has been removed on that line. There are areas that still have track

[@_SP64_]

They can also extend the Morristown Line and Montclair-Boonton Line all the way down to Phillipsburg where it would meet an extended Raritan Valley Line there's some talk about it.

[@paulreiche2746]

Chuck, great series! I note many cars filled with lumber passing through E Stroudsburg weekly. Do you know of the final user or delivery point?

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Paul, I'm afraid that I don't.

[@jimdiskin3760]

chuck, why were the railroads so quick to tear up the tracks? did they make more from scrapping the rails than it cost to pull them up? was it some sort of liability issue?

[@LackawannaCutOff]

jim diskin, there is a value to the track, and most of the track on the Cut-Off was 131 lbs rail, so it could be re-used as Conrail claimed it would be. The taxes also decrease when a railroad is abandoned. It took Conrail about two years to start removing tracks after abandonment, so it wasn’t quick. But clearly they wanted the line abandoned and did everything they could to kill business on the Pennsylvania side. Given this was ex-Erie Lackawanna trackage, Conrail had no financial interest in it and wanted to get rid of it.

[@tomtom3889]

16:20 they illegally pulled the tracks?

[@LackawannaCutOff]

A moot point now.

[@cbalducc]

There was not enough freight traffic to go around to keep all the lines open.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Conrail chased it away. Also, the line didn't technically ever have commuter service, so it didn't end up under NJ Transit until much later.

[@cbalducc]

I was referring to all the railroads that became part of Conrail.

[@LackawannaCutOff]

@@cbalducc, Conrail did it's best to make it look that way.

[@ssir6]

Wish there was more industry to have saved the Penn Division

[@bruceweidner2571]

What are the get is the tracks were there the train ran on them tracks in 1979 even if they abandoned the tracks the track should be still there and it should be railroad property this Private property thing it's ridiculous it should be railroad property they should be able to put tracks down no matter what the same thing happened to the septic tracks from Bethlehem to Lansdale they they tore all them tracks out they were stupid you know they could have left a set of tracks there and made the stupid walking path or bike track or whatever the hell they made it out of I think the railroads are too anxious to rip tracks up they must need the money from the steel

[@LackawannaCutOff]

Well, this is what we had to deal with. Fortunately, we were successful in getting the right-of-way into state hands.