Lady Mary Advises Jack Ross Against Marrying Lady Rose | Downton Abbey

[@m.layfette6249]

"It may surprise you, Mr. Ross, that if we lived in a different world I wouldn't want you to."

[@clotildebesson1991]

I don't really understand that statement. What would she not want him to? Live in a better world? End his relationship with Rose?

[@m.layfette6249]

@@clotildebesson1991 Jack Ross was sweet, kind, smart, and endearing. All the things and then some one would want in a suitor for a young and loveable Lady Rose. However, in the 1920s mixed race relationships were Not only frowned upon, but criminalized as well. In this conversation, Lady Mary states that she's Not against Jack and Rose's relationship based on his race, moreover; that she wants to shame and hurt her mother. Lady Mary and Jack know the risks of such a match, but even if the world/society were different she would not object to the relationship for such reasons.

[@nasyy888]

​@@clotildebesson1991Yes, to end his relationship with Rose. She would not want him to give in.

[@chenweiweng2429]

The actress who acted Mary handle the character extremely well. The heavy atmosphere she built, which cleared her status as a mourning widow, was persuasive.

[@m.layfette6249]

There's no doubt in my mind that Jack Ross cared for Lady Rose. Yet he knew in his heart of hearts that it would Never work between he and Rose. Not so much a difference in cultural backgrounds, moreover; how much Lady Rose hates her mother. In the end, when Lady Rose married Atticus it did upset her mother. Upset her to the point of trying to frame Atticus in an scandalous affair.

[@Sunny25611]

This is a particularly poignant scene and so in keeping with the times. Nothing but mad respect for his insight and acknowledgment of Rose’s vulnerability in a society that she was still too naïve to grasp.

[@hecate3062]

Funny thing is that her mother was even more broken over Rose's succesfull marriage with Atticus. She tried to ruin it so much but with no succes. And Rose was really happy in that marriage. I wish Jack a happy future with a beautiful girl. Fiction or not

[@raina2319]

She never knew about Jack Ross. She would have found more .. uncivilised ways of showing her displeasure if Rose actually tried to go through with it.

[@shadesamurai]

Poor Jack Ross. Such a handsome guy in such a cruel world.

[@kathieprater2431]

Jack really did love her.

[@nina1522]

Yes, and maybe Rose did love him,too. But she was only marrying him to hurt her mother.

[@TheGrenadier97]

Lady Mary was right. Rose was just a teenager, therefore bound to make poor decisions. Fortunately Jack was painfully realistic.

[@kaylao.3326]

The age difference should’ve been more of the concern than race. He looks significantly older than ol girl

[@yoruichisan19]

@@kaylao.3326 There is actually only three years between them. It comes down to the style they chose for the characters and of course, his facial hair and her makeup.

[@yvonnetomenga5726]

One of the things I love about this series is how people handled problems and disagreements without raising their voices and insulting each other. It's only listening to current politicians that makes me realize how much I appreciate civilized behavior. Another example of not appreciating what you have until you lose it.

[@KoiYakultGreenTea]

Civilised behaviour as you put it stems down to intelligent intercourse. These days a lot of people don’t want to use their brains to argue back, or can’t stand their egos being bruised or be told they’re wrong. Trouble is that it also requires a lot of humility and patience and most people underrate these virtues. I can personally attest I have a lack of it when pushed into negative situations. Only in hindsight do I find good words to say. Because I had lacked patience, because of pride I say things I don’t mean or am impulsive.

[@KoiYakultGreenTea]

@Mai Tandy why don’t you enlighten their naivety?

[@jenniferhiemstra5228]

Believe me, the lack of voice raising doesn’t negate the insults. It was just more subtle back then. Period pieces like this are more about what’s NOT said and subtext, to maintain a facade of decorum and appear more civil.

[@alexandradane3672]

Yvonne , that indeed was way one managed disagreements . Sadly all that ended in the post 2nd war years when “ liberalism” socialism and entitlement became the norm……the attitude that the world owes me a living and I’ll do what I want , when I want and without working for it and without holding and maintaining any respect for others - no matter who they are or where they come from. Who was it that said “ …(sic) the peasants will proliferate , eventually ‘ rule ‘ whilst devouring themselves each other and decent society of values and honour…” . Can anyone remember the quote and the book?

[@jesseleeward2359]

@@jenniferhiemstra5228 anyone who has been to Texas or somewhere in the american South can attest that this good looking 'Civil discourse' is not as pleasant as it sounds. I am from New Zealand where it is the same way as it was in these times and I 100% perfer modern northern Yankee interactions than these old fashioned ones. much more articulate, analytical, academic and intelligent. I am especially unimpressed with all the silly kiwi niceness and etiquette given all the political issues in NZ now.

[@avengerwidow9]

another jack and rose that didn't end up together :(((

[@carlkoh]

I love how you slid in that comment....so good!

[@shonua5604]

ahaha that was a good one

[@FKATheo]

Rewatching in preparation for the film. Ive missed this show sm

[@nategraham6946]

This may be me reading a bit much into this. I think Mary did this more out of concern for Jack than to prevent Rose from doing it. She did say that she trusts Jack more than Rose. Admittedly she does have more insider knowledge into Rose's rationale.

[@lisarandleman6141]

Rose was a thrill seeker. This was by her inappropriate relationship in the 3rd series. Moreover, her mother was cruel and overbearing and Rose knew how to push Susan’s buttons. This relationship would take the cake. Rose was so naïve that she couldn’t comprend the ostracism that would have to happen. And that she would be poor and living on her wits.

[@Ariana-wv4pf]

@@lisarandleman6141ok, but why you need to comment twice?

[@lisarandleman6141]

@@Ariana-wv4pf accidentally

[@otisbeck5327]

Beautiful and sad scene here between Gary Carr (Jack Ross) and Michelle Dockery (Lady Mary Crawley).

[@HouseJawn]

The acting in Downton is 100x better than The Gilded Age

[@lemonsquire5993]

Fully agree!

[@silentsaturn7604]

It's not a competition. I'm just glad we're getting more Julian Fellow shows in the Downton world.

[@SarahForeshadow13]

“I’m not here to stop you because you’re black. I’m here to stop you because she’s using you and you need to run”

[@johanndominik2032]

This is one thing I love about the show. It's historically accurate and realistic. It's not just a show of today's problems set in the frame of the early 20th century. It really is a show of the early 20th century. A white person marrying a black one was (though not impossible like in the US till 1967) but just very, very difficult and unrealistic.

[@flyboy152]

She's not just some random white person. She's the daughter of a Marquess, which ups the stakes by a whole lot.

[@benlowe1701]

Rose's class is the big issue. Its not that she wants to marry a black man so much as that *She* wants to marry a black man. The UK Never had anything in the way Anti-miscegenation laws, and it shocks some people to realise quite how far back interracial mixing in the UK goes: there are letters dated to the Elizabethan era with an almost comically good impression of modern racists lamenting how London is "Unrecognisable nowadays because of all the moorish [Dark-skinned] people. Whilst people experienced racism, people of mixed ancestry were far more likely to experience racism: not a specialised form of racism relating to the idea of mixing the races than they would in the US, which founded itself on the idea that the races should not be allowed to mix. The exception being of course, among the upperclasses - a facet that remains to this day, as seen by some people's reaction to Prince William's marriage. **Other** people marrying and mixing was fine. But **Noblemen?** That was another matter entirely. You'll find almost every layer of social inequality in the UK to be permeated in class. Homosexuality for example, was tolerated among the upper classes for eons, whilst working class folks found themselves imprisoned and later chemically castrated. To say nothing of drug use - even in the modern era.

[@julesmum9781]

While those laws were on the books, they weren't always reality esp in remote places

[@danbev8542]

@@benlowe1701Good comments - but aren’t you referring to Prince Harry marrying an American (gasp!), Black (Gasp, gasp!), actress (more gasps!) I agreed with Harry when he said the Royals missed a huge opportunity to embrace Meghan.

[@benlowe1701]

@@danbev8542 I got the wrong Prince. It was the other one. In my defense, I'm am not overly enamoured with the royals. But I am *massively* annoyed at the way we a Jeffrey Epsteins Best mate and "a man who married a (Partly) black woman" and our press and establishment treat them as equally worthy of revulsion.

[@jacklynlawson]

One of my favorite Downtown moments!

[@ABirdOnTheMoon]

It is sad that he was a love interest of Rose .. because she is young and naive .. he is a lovely person and I wanted to see more of him.

[@kepecos]

What a gracious, intelligent and understanding man. A man ahead of the time he was living in. Kind and strong. And Mary continues to impress me as well. She lashes out at Edith because they don’t get along, and she seems like a cold fish, but when someone bothers to see beneath that exterior and find out who she is, she loves so fiercely yet remains respectful as she was here

[@AnastasiaBeaverhousn]

Intelligent?? So was he supposed to be ignorant!!! 🤡🥴

[@kepecos]

@@AnastasiaBeaverhousn 😂😂🤣🙂🙂 how exhausting. Picking apart positive comments like that. “You look pretty today!” “WELL WHAT? I was supposed to look UGLY? Did I look UGLY YESTERDAY!?!” Lmao stfu 🤡

[@sarahberkner]

Mary's character gets a lot of hate, and while she is flawed she has good qualities as well and she has character growth over the course of the show (which is usually the sign of a good show). She is understandably going to be a little spoiled given her upbringing, but she's a hard worker and actually wants to contribute. Also she's not actually a snob like people think and besides treating Jack with respect here, she is kind to the servants and accepting of Tom.

[@12classics39]

Their names are Jack and Rose, just like the couple in Titanic, a film about the disaster which kicked off the events of the series!

[@dreamsteddybearsmaster]

They didn't even drink the tea LOL

[@billhosko7723]

troll."lol".

[@patbiggam8138]

One of Mary's finer moments.

[@f89jgb7]

Jack: "I just made some tea. Would you like a cup?" Mary: "Thank you." Mary: *teleports next to the table* 😆

[@sarahberkner]

I don't know why people think Mary's a snob, she's probably one of the least "classist" upper class people. She's kind enough to the servants and is close to Carson & Anna, she is willing to and wants to work hard even though it's discouraged, she quickly accepts Tom into their family, and realizes Jack might be more level-headed than Rose so she talks to him.

[@TheMovieMistress1993]

Jack truly cared for Rose. But deep down he knew that it never would have worked for lots or reasons. He would have been perfect for her. Rose was still very young and her family wouldn’t have allowed the marriage due to scandal among other things. She was born into the world of titles, party’s and dresses. I think he would have fitted into Rose’s world, as she would fit into his. It would have been a Tom/Sybil style relationship

[@lisarandleman6141]

Rose was a thrill seeker. This was by her inappropriate relationship in the 3rd series. Moreover, her mother was cruel and overbearing and Rose knew how to push Susan’s buttons. This relationship would take the cake. Rose was so naïve that she couldn’t comprend the ostracism that would have to happen. And that she would be poor and living on her wits.

[@yevgeniyaleshchenko849]

He wouldn't have been perfect for her considering she wanted to marry him mostly to stick it to her mother.

[@troyjones2687]

His American accent was so bad to me with him overdoing it one minute then slipping to English here and there.

[@aditi1998]

Ive been looking for someone to talk about it lol its comical

[@sarahberkner]

@@aditi1998 I never knew he was supposed to be American, I had missed that part until I saw him on an "Americans at Downton compilation". People act like Brits can do better American accents than Americans can do British accents, but that's not always the case.

[@elisecooper1942]

We're still waiting for that better world.

[@Celisar1]

World has improved in that regard a lot.

[@milie2422]

we're not supposed to wait, we're supposed to work at it imo

[@Happyheretic2308]

Hardly.

[@sarahberkner]

There are plenty of interracial marriages, there might be a stigma against them among certain individuals but there's not much to be done about that, you can't force people to change their mind.

[@emmanuelraylive]

Interracial marriage and romances were around back then. In the early 1900s those who did interracial marriage, especially white English women who married black, brown and beige men - were jeered at and faced verbal abuse. And there were ethnic minority women who married white men too. It was not widely spread. But it did happen every now and again. There are documentaries about this.

[@lunamequa]

Ross is literally the only person of color in the entire series. Kemal Pamuk doesn’t count because he was unfortunately played by a European actor. They never again show how diverse England truly was at that time. There were wealthy African and Asian people back living and vacationing in England. Every person of color living in England at that time wasn’t poor.

[@gnostic268]

No one said they were. The show was about a family. Not about showing the diversity of England. Why don't you create a show that you would like to watch and then you can put in all the diversity you want to see or watch Bridgerton. Anything to stop the grievance nitpicking.

[@lunamequa]

@@echorose2028 That’s what I mean. There are times and locations where diversity would and wouldn’t make sense.

[@lunamequa]

@@gnostic268 It’s obviously about about a family that is not mixed race. I didn’t say it wasn’t. I’m being realistic. England was a diverse place at this time. They didn’t even show diversity during the war. As the show progresses so too does time therefore we should see more diversity. There aren’t even a diverse cast of extras in the background when the main characters are in London. It’s still bad that a white actor played a brown character. Especially when there are appropriate actors easily available with English citizenship.

[@Celisar1]

Some people from different races in the big cities did not make that time „diverse“.

[@MsJubjubbird]

Most of this is set in the upper echelons of British society. And in a rural estate to boot. Very few people of colour were in the gentry as those estates were handed down over decades and centuries. It just wouldn't make sense. Especially in a part of the country with a very homogenous population. Even servant positions were often inherited and black people had little access to education so they could rarely get thosekids of jobs. To see people of colour you'd need to set the thing in factories or farms. There is nothing more cringeworthy these days than watching a movie or TV series where you can see they have tried to force racial diversity where it doesn't fit, just to earn a politically correct badge.

[@tobermory88]

Know you better than that? Of course that’s what she thinks

[@safespacebear]

Lady Mary showing she's got it in her to be the fixer when the Dowager Countess is gone

[@kepecos]

I love Mary so much. She is misunderstood and written off as a snob. I don’t believe that. I find her to be kind and gentle if one approaches her in that way and gives her a chance

[@tombstonerforever9374]

Rose was a lot like Sybil.

[@Awakening_Sunshine]

Another one of the girls who married outside of her religion (Sybil married a Catholic man, Rose married a Jewish man)

[@littlebigman5791]

What has religion got to do with it. Religion is a very minor thing. You marry for love and not for what version of that bloody book that you follow.

[@Awakening_Sunshine]

@@littlebigman5791 for many people religion is not a minor thing at all. Back then it was extremely shocking to marry outside of your religion (especially for the upper class). Now it’s become more acceptable, but for some it still would be heavily frowned upon

[@tombstonerforever9374]

@@littlebigman5791 Religion can be very important for some people that don't want to marry outside of it.

[@renc7305]

@@littlebigman5791 back then it was most certainly a big thing. It didn't become a minor thing for most people until the late 20th century. Today yes, then it was a big deal.

[@hpavalferr7201]

💚☺️

[@weemsical6137]

Rose is like the Scrabby Doo of Downton

[@Anamika00004]

I wish he had asked her what She is doing to make it a better world. In the name of all 'time-appropriate storyline', it could have been an apt question by a black man to Lady Mary. Rose is at least trying to make a point 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@martinjenkins6467]

But I'm afraid in 1925 England it wasn't a better world.

[@Happyheretic2308]

It was, in so many ways, though

[@vaw796]

​@@Happyheretic2308 Tell us how it was better "in so many ways"? The way working class had few rights? The discriminations? The few rights women had, r*pe, abuse, harrassment was barely prosecuted let alone a woman taken seriously? The horrendous working conditions. No antibiotics or vaccines for illnesses. The violence of people against the mentally unwell thrown in asylums and pushed out of sight by family. You view it through a rose tinted view. It was a harsh time, unemploymemt rife, men who fought in ww1 were not given the care promised and left disabled, out of work, kids malnourished and impoverished etc. Don't be so naive.

[@tiwantiwaabibiman2603]

First of all this NEVER would have happened in 1920's real life/British nobility or even in the "lower classes". It's always amazed me how Brits love pretending and rewriting their racist history as is the UK was so much better than the US and the rest of the world then (and now) when it comes to racism. The UK was just as racist as the US in the 1920s is just wasn't as openly blatant with it in certain situations. There were not open/public lynchings and burnings as there were in the US, for instance. There's no way that Rose would have been able to openingly date a Black man and there's no way a Black man from the US would have been so bold in public with her and, especially when at Downton (even in the servant's quarters). He would have been just as race conscious in the UK as he would have been in Virginia. There's no way all this grace and acceptance from the Crawleys/Granthams (sp) would have been tolerated or possible. This Jack character is British TV tokenism. If they really wanted to write in a more believable/genuine Black character they would have introduced a Black servant to the house.

[@ErenikGillgrenov]

uk racism was not as bad as the states in the 40s at least

[@sorayas7118]

Why would they have a Black servant?

[@emdee7744]

He is a terrible singer though. Its not believable that he and his band are in demand.

[@arananation]

Rose is lucky Tom told Mary the Arab screwer and not “who let a black singer in this house” Edith otherwise Rose would probably by now be put in an asylum.

[@anayadegani626]

Edith would not have done that at all. Stop spreading stupid stuff like this.

[@BelleBlack1]

This was the dumbest storyline.

[@EjPwned]

They had to meet their diversity quota

[@MandieTerrier]

Why? There was a lady in the time period who had an affair with a jazz singer

[@unclesamowitz9922]

Ah yes, this was that season in which the coward show runners bowed down to their Tribe masters and started checking boxes, as they _said_ they wouldn't do. It was all downhill from here.

[@faithworldleader6891]

This was such BS. It was fashionable for upper class married women like Lady Astor to have black musicians for lovers that I remember reading a book where someone quipped that they were imported them in by the boatload. But the idea that young, virginal Rose was going to marry this man was.....absurd. In the US at the time it wouldn't even have been legal. I don't know about Britain. And the family was just so very......understanding. BS. Unfortunately, you have to accept at some time that perfectly nice people in the past held un-nice opinions on things like race and pretending otherwise is deceitful and disrespectful to the many people everywhere who struggled for racial equality.

[@judith_thordarson]

@@faithworldleader6891 I agree with your statement, except, Rose was not "virginal". Remember when she was introduced in season 3?

[@glen7318]

@@faithworldleader6891 Lady Astor??? Nancy Astoer was an American woman from the South, who certianly didn't have lovers much less men of colour as her lovers.

[@alexandersinclair]

@@glen7318 Actually is was Lady Mountbatten of Burma, who was having an affair with a black musician.

[@MandieTerrier]

​@@faithworldleader6891Lady Edwina Mountbatten had an affair with jazz singer Leslie Hutchinson

[@Fee212]

Nasty scary Mary at it again.