Lamentation Analysis on Star Trek 11 Sorta: Nemesis

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[@adambowman8543]

The only bright spot in this movie, was getting to see what the Enterprise E was fully capable of of in battle.

[@BriDog420]

Phaser death blossom! Not as cool as the Gunstar, but still pretty rad.

[@nigelmurphy6761]

agreed. movie could have been and should have been so much better.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

And what we see of the Enterprise E is that her weapons are so weak, she runs out of ammunition after only dealing about 30% damage to only 1 of the 2 layers of shields the enemy ship has.

[@gnomesaiyan1680]

It's a silly reason, but what bugs me most about this movie: The photo of young Cadet Picard has him bald.

[@00nick7]

Gnome Saiyan You're not alone on that one.

[@nigelmurphy6761]

yes i noticed that as well.

[@Anghellik9]

"This is the dumbest plan i've ever heard! Well, that's not true because i've heard Jar-Jar speak." I lold

[@OhManTFE]

You don't know who Tom Hardy is? Nemesis was one of his first roles, and he's gotten pretty successful since. He had a role in Inception, which led to him being in Dark Knight Rises as the main villain (Bane), and he then just recently has played Mad Max in Mad Max: Fury Road.

[@jmiester25]

There is one good scene, when the Romulan woman says “He’s not planning Earth’s capture. He’s planning its annihilation. And his sins will mark us and our children for generations.” That’s it.

[@badmaninc.536]

I think I found one genuinely well done and quite subtle moment in this entire movie. The award goes to Michael Dorn. It takes place during the wedding and reception scene, the way he portrayed Worf’s unhappiness and discomfort. It was a nice little nod to continuity for both TNG and DS9. Season 7 TNG, Worf and Troi had a nicely done, slow growing relationship blossoming, and things probably would have resulted in the two of them ending up together had the Enterprise D not being destroyed and Worf going on a Sojourn to Borath. Then he got reassigned to DS9 where he met Jadzia Dax... and you know how that relationship ended. On a very sad, tragic note. Then came Ezri, and despite what anyone says about her, it was a second chance for Worf, but she chose differently. So at the wedding of his ex-girlfriend, whom he all but named as Alexander’s godmother and probably still had at least some feelings for, which comes maybe only two years after the sudden and tragic death of his wife, and having also lost his second chance with Dax, his moroseness and rather melancholy behavior at this celebration made perfect sense and was, in my opinion at least, incredibly well acted and subtle in a way that the rest of this train wreck of a movie completely lacked. And the scene itself was barely a few seconds long.

[@WujekFu]

His relationship with Troy was fake and forced. She and Riker had known each other for years and had always been close. Even when they weren't together, they remained good friends. From what I remember, her affair with Worf began after his visit in alternate reality where they were a couple. He told her about it, and suddenly they felt something for each other. It's weird and far-fetched, considering they've never been close. In the first season of TNG, they exchanged maybe a few sentences with each other, only later did they become friends. Yes, they respected each other, and he even made her Alexander's godmother but for them to suddenly fall in love with each other is unlikely. In fact, even Marina Sirtis said that their affair was hardly credible and they didn't fit together. In his relationship with Deanna, he would have become a pussy (those are her words), while Jadzia, who had a warrior nature and liked Klingons was a much better candidate for a wife for him.

[@thatguy7331]

I really like these Lamentations. To see such a level headed guy spit so much venom toward a movie. It's damned entertaining!

[@uiuiuiseraph]

I normally listen to videos like that while working or playing games. You are now the only person who makes me just listen for over an hour, doing nothing else. If anyone can understand this as the highest compliment I am able to give, then I hope its you. You have my deepest respects. Oh and from now on I will also call this ship the mary sou. Before I forget: shinzon was played by tom hardy. he played Bane in batman dark knight rising. I would love it when you ruminate about these 3 movies.

[@_Sasha_Sasha]

It's worth noting that 'Troi gets mind-raped' was actually the plot of a TNG episode. The difference, of course, is that the mind-rape was the whole point; it was an episode all about someone who routinely abuses their psychic abilities to exert power over others. So while it was certainly dark subject matter for Star Trek, it was properly explored and mulled over. Whereas, with this movie, the mind-rape is there primarily so that Troi can revenge mind-rape back.

[@dg63641]

The one thing I really loved about Nemesis was Picard's "I await the dawn" bit.

[@Xelpherpolis]

Interestingly enough, Stuart Baird was the editor for Skyfall, for which John Logan was also a screen-writer. Interesting that those two get together and help make a "Wrath of Khan" type movie that was actually pretty good.

[@saxbend]

Skyfall was ok. Amazing compared to Nemesis of course, but it wasn't all that. One job Stuart Baird did very well though was the editing on the first Christopher Reeve Superman film.

[@cjones3710]

Skyfall wqs not exceptiinal. After Casino thr bond films went down hill. I liked Quatum more than most I think. But that series is not as timeless as the older films imo.

[@GehennaDestiny]

Being an avid B-movie watcher I can say that, generally, when a rape is added to a movie that adds nothing to the plot or characterization or anything else of worth, it is typically an attempt by a moronic hack producer/director/writer to make the movie "sexier." It is something they straight-up admit to doing based on multiple director commentaries/behind the scenes featurettes that I've watched. Judging by the calibre of both writing and directing on this film, I would not be surprised if that was the sole reason for its inclusion.

[@danielyeshe]

Why would you hire a non director to direct when two of the principal actors have directorial experience! And Stewart should have played the clone. Imagin the potential of that. A Romulan ship destroyes a colony and then we see Picard in the command chair. It would have been an except wtf moment and the film could have made it look like this was Picard till the true is revealed.

[@talideon]

Manny Coto almost saved Star Trek. Pity he had almost zero chance of succeeding.

[@werideatdusk]

Yes and no. The fourth season of enterprise was fan service, it wasn't going to reinsert trek into the mainstream. TNG managed to do that without watering down genes vision. Abrams did it too but only by turning trek into a hyperactive action blockbuster. Trek may not get another chance at greatness for a while but to be fair it has come back from the dead multiple times and we are lucky for what we have even if the majority of it for the past 20+ years has been a disappointment.

[@captmoroni]

An attempted Apology of Shinzon's plan: If a certain character from DS9 was correct, by now the Federation and Romulans are the only powers capable of contending for hegemony of the Quadrant(s), since Cardassia is occupied and the Klingons are exhausted. Perhaps Shinzon believes the same? Taking out Earth means eliminating the Federation's legislative and executive branches of government, as well as Starfleet HQ - civilian and military leadership wiped out in a single surprise attack. And if a certain Klingon Academy instructor/general was correct, the Federation's member races are a "brittle unity" that can be shattered by fear, since they were united "not naturally through conquest, but through diplomacy." Fear of that weapon could cause a political backlash, forcing Starfleet to patrol Federation worlds of little strategic value, spreading the fleet very thin, and making Romulan conquest of resource and industry-rich territory that much easier. Doesn't mean Shinzon would succeed, but as Picard describes his younger self, he's "arrogant, selfish, very much in need of seasoning." Of course this assumes strategic thinking on Shinzon's part, but like he told Picard, "All I have are my personal feelings."

[@MWMTEE]

shinzo broke the bats back

[@smartalec2001]

The ‘bad guy with a giant ship’ thing really set in bad after Nemesis. Nero and the Naraada, Khan and the Vengeance (“Evil Excelsior”), even Franklin and the Swarm. All of these keep trying to recapture the feeling of Wrath of Khan - but Khan had a WEAKER ship, the Reliant was a lighter class than the Enterprise. Khan was dangerous because he was smart.

[@jamesp8164]

I don’t know that Reliant was weaker. It was smaller but it was also newer. Your other point is superbly well taken. Khan was dangerous because he was scary smart. He would’ve been a threat with an Oberth or a shuttle craft.

[@SeruraRenge11]

@@jamesp8164 The Reliant only did as much damage as it did to the Enterprise because he attacked an enemy with their shields down who weren't expecting an attack. And that's the most a Miranda-class has ever achieved in all of Star Trek.

[@MarshallMiller157]

Although I don't want to defend this movie, I do want to say that the actor who played Shinzon, Tom Hardy, is a talented actor and has done some very good work. I wouldn't let Nemesis soil your opinion of him. For the most recent example see Mad Max: Fury Road.

[@ANProductionsOfficialChannel]

To Baird's credit, in 1998 he directed US Marshals, and i thought that was pretty good movie starring Tommy Lee Jones.

[@calebjanus2000]

That movie might have been good despite him due to the cast.

[@LanceVanceDance84]

@@calebjanus2000 Yup. Great cast, but a forgettable story (basically The Fugitive 2.0) and uninspired camerawork.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

For your laughing or groaning convenience: Mary Sue ship analysis starts at 44:14

[@JwalkZer0]

Horrible games and foreboding drumbeats as an intro and Arch saying "Disclaimer, this video will be me bashing something".........THIS GUNNA BE GUUUUD!!!

[@badarbiter]

I looked it up, turns out the actor for Shinzon was Tom Hardy, who played in Band of Brothers, was Bane in the last batman movie, and Max in the new Mad Max movie. Turns out he's a good actor. Might have been the directing's fault.

[@AngryGerman57]

Looked up Shinzon on imbd, I was surprised to find that Tom Hardy, the new Mad Max, was the actor.

[@timf7413]

FWIW, the director did have 2 prior feature film directing credits. (not saying that as any sort of defense of his work here)

[@MariahSyn]

Yeah I despised this film, however Tom Hardy (Shinzon) was being directed by Stuart Baird. Seeing him in later films shows that it was probably not 100% him. Could we perhaps find a way to get every copy and script relating to Nemesis and maroon it for all eternity at the heart of a dead planet.. buried alive..

[@CRocketSlim]

If you haven't seen it already, find the screen test footage of Hardy and Stewart... yeah, Baird deserves all the scorn for Nemesis, all of it Franchise-inappropriate, but I don't care, we need to call in one of those 2D Phantom Zone jail cells from the old Donner Superman films just for Baird

[@MariahSyn]

You know, I ran across one of those at a yard sale. Wonder if they still have it?

[@eggsandchips91]

I like this movie but I honestly have no idea why! All the points you made are valid, but I still enjoy it. It's one of the few movies I can point to and say everyone else hates it and I like it. I think it comes down to the fact that I love the Next Generation crew so much that I enjoy spending any time with them regardless of whether its a good episode/movie etc.

[@ianperge7331]

Stuart Baird is actually a quite a good, nay, actual factual *fantastic* Editor (Academy Award-nominated for Richard Donner's Superman & Gorillas in the Mist, numerous accolades for the best of the "Modern Bonds", Casino Royale & Skyfall) but as many in Hollywood do, imagined himself a "Director" as well. When Paramount came to him to do quick re-edits to save their big, *tentpole* films of Mission: Impossible II & Lara Croft: Tomb Raider at the last minute (and in fairly short order of each other), he was able to parlay those jobs into a directing slot. After that agreement was made, from *Paramount's*, POV weren't about to give him anything decent to wreck, and many fans, this one included, thought the last several seasons of various shows & films were fairly terrible and that Trek in general could use a "hiatus" for a few years (as well as completely new Production & Writing Staffs as well) before returning: this was 15 non-stop years since "Encounter at Farpoint" - over 4 Series, the last 2 TOS and 3 TNG films, the latter of both medium becoming more stale by the "Bumpy Nosed Alien-of-the-Week" episode... and thus the teaming of him with "Nemesis" served both well. This is NOT to say people *wanted* the TNG Films to end on this note, but it appeared to be all but happening anyway and that Paramount would have found someone equally or more inept to do the deed...

[@damastamindz]

I am not saying its a good scene. But i enjoyed seeing Janeway talking to Picard

[@OhManTFE]

Gulp, I didn't think Nemesis was that bad...

[@davidknight2104]

It isn't it's a good film I dont get the hate at all its bizarre

[@ShamrockParticle]

It's a hodgepodge of too many things forced together, under too contrived circumstances. Some basic ideas are interesting and had much potential, I agree. But add in cut and paste of Data's "death" and bridge crew wake from ST3 and it does underwhelm fans and doesn't make any new ones.

[@Eval999]

LOL Arche hates Tom Hardy. That amuses me.

[@saxbend]

I hated Tom Hardy after I saw Nemesis too. Only when I saw Bronson did I see that he had grown up a lot.

[@ryanspencerlauderdale687]

To completely express my full emotions about this movie, I’d like to quote for you one of the respected Guinan’s eloquent anecdotes from Q-Who: “WHAT!?”

[@CrazyChemistPL]

Actually... Tom Hardy is Shinzon. Boom. Yeah, that Tom Hardy (Bane, new Mad Max). I wouldn't believe either if I hadn't checked.

[@permeus2nd]

CrazyChemistPL i guess everyone needs to start somewhere.

[@WolfestoneManor]

He started playing a Ranger with a pretty solid American accent. Dude has range.

[@SMAXZO]

I think this movie's biggest flaw is that it tried to be the Next Generation's Wrath of Khan...even though we already had a Next Gen Wrath of Khan....it's called First Contact and First Contact was a far superior film to Nemesis and my first foray into Star Trek.

[@captmoroni]

Also, thank you Arch for actually posting these movie ruminations despite the critics. I've enjoyed each and every one. They're well-tread territory, but your honesty and insights are why your viewers gladly watch your hours-long videos.

[@fifimsp]

I'm glad you mentioned the rape because after the movie I told my husband that was not only unnecessary, but actually hurt the movie narrative. For instance, the whole movie was suppose to be about the nature vs. nurture. In some respects you could have sympathy for Shinzon as he was abused and it gave him at least a motivating factor that you could understand. However, once he goes in for rape, he's just an evil guy. Then Picard tells her to suck it up, which then to me, is totally uncharacteristic for Picard and makes him a buttonhole too! I think they were using it to establish that his Visory has psychic powers so that later Troi could counteract and save the day, but we could have established that in a less creepy way. I think Shinzon would have been much better with a more sympathetic side to him. That's my opinion.

[@MetalDudeBen]

I actually thought that Tom Hardy(Shinzon) did a pretty good job, I felt it was interesting that he could portray any characteristics though what( I'd say) is the worst script ever in Star Trek. Funnily enough I also feel the writer John Logan has actually improved greatly since Nemesis, in fact he wrote the screenplay to one of my favorite movies in the last five years "Hugo". But yeah Nemesis was a travesty, the mind rape was the worst plot point in the movie because as you said it added NOTHING. I still would not have liked it if it did something for the thin bare plot. At least if it pushed a plot threat along I might have begrudgingly accepted it.

[@nigelmurphy6761]

yes i agree. He was great. Really pulled off the clone of picard very well.

[@davidknight2104]

Yeh I think tom hardy was really good in this but yeh the tape scene was just weird and its uncomfortable I didnt think it was needed and Diana could have used her powers on tom hardy

[@ShamrockParticle]

Hardy was great. Logan's style never appealed, but not everybody looks for or likes the same things in movies.

[@williamozier918]

In apology for one aspect of Shinzon's stupidity: I took it from his character that really his plan was burn down the ROMULAN Empire, in essence committing suicide by War. Romulan Dina Meyer turned on him when she realized this was his true plan.

[@triptow6677]

Always appreciate your insight. Thank you sir.

[@ShamrockParticle]

Seconded!

[@TassieDinkum90]

Have only recently discovered your channel, and have loved what I've watched so far; your LOTR ruminations were particularly excellent. But as a lifelong Star Trek fan I was intrigued to see your takes on the movies, in particular Nemesis. It is HILARIOUS how much you hate this film - I actually laughed numerous times seeing the level of frustration and pure, unadulterated hatred you bear towards it :P personally, while conceding it's far from the strongest Trek movie of all time, I didn't totally despise it. There are of course, as you say, things about it that are utterly idiotic (B4, front and centre - how the furk did the Remans find him, exactly?) the rape scene.... (Urgh.... Why?) and - of course - the inexcusable travesty of Data's death. As a 12-year old watching Nemesis in the cinema, I burst into tears. Data is my favourite Star Trek character by streets; only Garak in DS9 comes close. Having said that, the end battle was thoroughly enjoyable, I ADORE the new Valdore-class Romulan Warbird. Importantly however I do believe there is ONE crucial piece of character development in this movie, and that is Worf seemingly finally letting go of at least a part of his lifelong hatred of the Romulans; as he says to Riker "the Romulans fought with honour", and he seems to say that with sincerity. If there is one positive to this movie that isn't action based, it's that - at least partial - piece of emotional closure for Worf. Also, re Shinzon's craptacularly un-thought out Federation "plan", I also thought of the hypothetical aftermath in a WWII scenario: I imagine it would have been akin to the aftermath of Bismarck's sinking of HMS Hood; i.e. while it would undoubtedly have been a phenomenal blow to morale (as losing the Hood was for Britain), it would have galvanised the rest of the Federation to fuck up if not the Romulan Empire but at the very least the "Mary Sue Ship" at any cost. And yes, the Federation-Klingon alliance would have possum-stomped the Romulans into ruins within six months. I look forward to your future Star Trek work, in particular your ruminations for TNG and DS9.

[@iansarmy1]

While I agree that he was a very poor choice, Baird directed two decent action movies (Executive Decision and US Marshals) before Nemesis and was a very well respected and sought after editor. Paramount gave him Nemesis as part of a deal to have him do editing work for them in the future.

[@SexycuteStudios]

The Wrath Of Shinzon!

[@ShamrockParticle]

Dang, there's a sequel begging to happen. Maybe he'll return in Picard season 2. If Data could then everyone can.

[@MrAustin889]

This guy is the uber geek......

[@kblargh]

I'm not gonna dispute any of the points you made, i agree with all of them, plus some other retardity best left unsaid. Part of it was probably because i went into this movie expecting to hate it past the 10 minute mark, but there were things i liked, honestly. I liked Picard's speech at the wedding table. I liked his and Data's reversal on Shizon, when he thought he'd captured him aboard the Scimitar - which by the way, say what you will about the writing of this movie, very little of how the Crew solves problems this time around has anything to do with Technobabble. Stupid as the buggy chase was, it was solved completely visually. Data didn't even have to explain what he was doing, we could see it for ourselves. By the same token, once B4 is revealed to be Data aboard the Scimitar, you don't even need an explanation. You get it immediately, and it ties in perfectly about how they were planning to use B4's infiltration to gain a tactical advantage. The Rift disrupting Long Range Comms is another example. The moment Data says it, Both he and Picard and the audience immediately understand what's about to happen. Which leads me to the space battle. For one thing, it's an actual space brawl. They don't sit around getting whopped until someone thinks of directing a resonance pulse through the deflector charged with antitachyons while Numfar does the dance of random on the port nacelle; they bite back has hard as they can until they actually run out of ammo - and i can believe it too, because it was a ton of firepower the Enterprise was expending. And this is the Mary Sue ship - it's the first telltale sign that you're gonna have a victory by tecnhnobabble, but they never ever go there. They scatter their Phasers to disrupt the Cloak, follow her firing trajectory to get a location, and when all else fails they straight up ram the thing. I'm not gonna lie, i loved that space battle. And this was a movie i was practically trying to hate. I actually wanna ask you, Arch: Do you really see no merit in at least that?

[@CO2Giger]

Shinzon's plan was not very practical and very ambitious. It was a big gamble. But Shinzon was dying and wanted to accomplish a lot in what little amount of time he had left. If he had more time to live, he could have worked out a much better plan. He was after all a flawed rapidly ageing clone.

[@Doug19752533]

Data's death - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"

[@pocketheart1450]

I think the worst thing about this movie is that it has a lot of really good ideas and concepts and just pisses them all away.

[@Lorerunner]

Pocket Heart Agreed overall. I like your comments relating Shinzon to B'Vat (as an avid STO player, I should've picked up on that immediately) except as you say B'Vat was at least fully aware of what he was doing. Also the scene where Picard goes to Data is admittedly the best scene in the movie for me, and you can tell there was some heartfelt acting by both actors.

[@mmmmmduffbeer]

I agree that, out of character, the Scimitar is a Mary Sue ship. My in character explanation for the ship has always been that it was the Romulan version of the Defiant Program. Starfleet focused on small, durable ships that could attack Borg cubes in swarms. That way, each ship that is destroyed only takes away a small percentage of the fleet's firepower. Romulans of the TNG era seem to consolidate power in behemoths like the D'Deridex. Their ability to cloak mitigates some of the problems with putting all their eggs in one warbird. Unfortunately, when it comes to actual fighting, it makes the Romulan fleets vulnerable during large fleet engagements as seen during the Dominion War. The Scimitar seems to be following this model of consolidating power. I think the strategy used by the Scimitar is to fly around a Borg cube firing like crazy while Scorpion fighters make many, many pinprick attack runs. When enough damage is done so that the cube drops out of warp to repair itself, the Scimitar fires it's thelaron weapon at the cube. The weapon could also be used on Romulan planets that were being or had been assimilated by the Borg. The effect of the thelaron weapon would be analogous to the plasma coolant leak on the Enterprise-E in First Contact. The reason we never saw it before is because it was a top secret ship that only operated to protect Romulus from the type of Borg attacks we saw in First Contact.

[@MLPDethDealr32]

Also, that scene with " Admiral Janeway". Janeway: The Sona the Borg, you seem to get all the easy assignments Jean Luc. Me: Easy? Have you forgotten the Kazon, the Vadwaar, THE BORG, the Krenim Imperium?

[@Jorgie000]

Shinzon is Bane dude! He bulked up a lot since then lol

[@therealscarred2112]

Tom Hardy has shown a great ability to bulk up for certain roles ("TDKR", "Warrior"), but his natural body shape is a much slimmer and in Very Good Shape ("Inception", "The Take", "Mad Max Fury: Road", etc...). However, he's never been as slim as he was 22/23 while filming "Trek 10", only his 3rd credited role.

[@ShamrockParticle]

Didnt he fall into depression after Nemesis?

[@MFKR696]

To quote Yamamoto about Pearl Harbor; "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." Nuff said lol

[@paulfox89]

I actually thought the movie wasn't that bad. Not really worth several re-watches but it's better than any of new jj abrams trek. I thought Picard freezing at the end of the movie made complete sense because he was a broken man. He was destroyed by the borg and he severely tortured buy cardassians. Then he loses all of his remaining family in a horrific fire. It's completely understandable that he froze up when shinzon stared him in the eye. He basically saw all that he could have become!

[@meamishere1166]

The part of this movie that I hate the most is also the part I almost never hear anyone else ever mention. The incessant copycat-ing from the TV series. • Shinzon is clearly a rip off of Sela, she of Tasha Yar lineage. • B-4 is yet another Noonien Soong android and yet they never once even reference "Lore." • And they find B-4's head on some random planet they have never been too before. "Time's Arrow" anyone? That more people don't seem to have a problem with these things is something I've never understood. As a fan, I just felt insulted.

[@FreihEitner]

Wow, how times change. We went from a golden age of Star Trek with 3 quite popular (I'll avoid saying successful as some were less so) overlapping TV series and movies, to Lore commenting here in 2015 that there are no Star Trek TV shows in the works, to 2021 with 4 concurrently produced shows and a 5th on the way.

[@DrLynch2009]

Arch, Shinzon was played by Tom Hardy. Shinzon plan was to blow up each mayor planet in the Federation, starting with earth preaty much like that faced painted romulan Eric Bana played in Star Trek(2009). The romulan military rebeled against Shinzon not becouse his plan but becouse he was going to do the move without the romulan star fleet support.

[@RaymondConlon25]

DrLynch2009 Shinzon's primary plan was destroying Earth just, no?

[@therealdutchidiot]

"I sometimes wonder if Shinzon actually IS Rick Berman". This, so much this.

[@retroblasting]

Very interesting. You like Kylo Ren, but dislike Shinzan. Even though they both react to things not going their way pretty much the exact same way. Very interesting.

[@69dividead69]

Oh hey there retroblasting hear you a few times on WorldclassBullshiters didn t expect that you also watch Lorerunner videos :D

[@ivanthemadvandal8435]

I bet that they promoted Janeway to Admiral so she couldn't loose the stupidly OP Voyager (that can now one shot Borg Cubes,) to some idiot Ferengi.

[@resurrectedstarships]

I honestly am happy that this movie at least did some world-building baout the universe and the Romulan Empire - we got the Remans which is interesting and seems something liek what the Romulans would do, we got new Romulan ships, and some insights into the romulan senate. HOWEVER I had imagined the Romulan elements were far more grand, the Senate chamber should have been more than a largish room, but a GRAND CHAMBER that rivals the senate chamber in Star Wars prequels, amoong other things. But I am such a Romulan fan I was happy just to have gotten something on the big screen about them.

[@darkram13]

I really like the Picard/Shinzon conversation when the final battle is taking a pause.

[@Aliexei]

In DS9 its well established that Klingon empire is in no state to wage war after Dominion wars. At all. 37:17

[@StormsparkPegasus]

Don't forget, the ship in Star Trek 6 was built for a specific purpose: to frame the Enterprise. Being able to fire torpedos while cloaked was not tactically useful. Plus, it was very easy to penetrate the cloak. But for the purpose it was designed for, noone knew to look for it because it was part of a frame-up job.

[@egoalter1276]

WWII didnt hinge on moscow. It hinged on the gruzian oil fields. If Barbarossa succeeded in kiking out one of the legs of the soviet warmachine (ie. Leadership/fuelsupply/land leas supplies from th US, the Union would have once again collapsed into civil war. Thats not a matter of debate, its wether that was even a feasible possibility.

[@robd9413]

Can also be argued that the point wasn't Moscow itself, but that Stalin was there. Stalin was, often through excessive force, their backbone and the hope was it would crumble when he was either captured or killed. If he'd fled Moscow (as was apparently recommended), Moscow would become largely irrelevant to the overall strategy. Whether that iwould have happened is largely moot - it wasn't what was true, but what was believed that counted.

[@MrBoombastic1904]

In regards to the statement you made on your boss (or a superior) calling you the wrong name, be it intentional or ignorance, is INCREDIBLY true. When I was in 6th grade, I joined the football team and wasn't the best player but certainly wasn't the worst but the coach would always call me Madison (my name is Mason) and laugh while doing it. It was incredibly degrading, emasculating and was rough to deal with at that age. I ended up just leaving the team a few months later because I couldn't handle it anymore. Shit still irks me to this day sometimes.

[@George_M_]

Ah yes the movie where Sir Patrick Stewart is put on not one but two theme park rides.

[@OhManTFE]

I liked the car chase, driving the car into the flying ship (cool!), the uber Romulan ship with multicoloured torpedoes - the big ship collision, Romulan warbirds getting OWNED, flying those miniships inside the giant ships (remind me of Protoss Interceptors that are inside Carriers in Starcraft), Data sacrificing himself, that death ray beam (Thanatos cannon or something?). Haven't watched the movie in awhile though.

[@LiberPresse1]

well, watcning this in 2017, got a new show!!

[@fatesrequiem]

There are two things they could have changed and Nemesis would’ve been an okay even potentially good movie: 1) They should have hired Patrick Stewart as Shinzon. You could have run a “infiltrating the Federation” angle and you would’ve gotten Patrick Stewart playing an evil Jean Luc. 2) kill the motherfucking Troi mindrape subplot! For fucks sake how many fucking times do we need to have a Troi mindrape subplot?!

[@TheSyledir]

Finally! The Nemesis Lamination! I have to say I am rather surprised. I expected a lot more rage and hate in this video, but you restrained yourself quite well. Anyway, I don't want to defend this movie (much). God knows it has more than enough flaws. However, it has one thing I have been waiting for since forever: A superiour adversary for the Enterprise. How many times did the Enterprise have to fight an old rusty Bird of Prey? Time and time again did the captains of the rival ships find a way to even the odds to defeat the Enterprise. They had to outthink the enemy. The victory of the Enterprise never seemed like it was earned but rather an uncontested one. This time the enemy was stronger. This time Picard had to outthink the enemy. The Scimitar may have been a Mary-Sue-Ship but it made its defeat all the more rewarding. And granted, it wasn't the best ship-battle ever, but it had its moments. Finally, Data is dead. After ST7, 8 and 9 they finally granted Brent Spiner his wish and let him die. Anyone who didn't live in a cave knew it would happen, so the death scene was rather underwhelming. Not the worst death scene ever, though. I liked the CGI, I liked the soundtrack, I even liked the action scenes. Even if they felt terribly out of place. Every ten minutes I said to myself: "That would look awesome in an Expendables movie! But Star Trek? Really?" One last thing. Saying something is dumb is not enough. You need to explain why. Most people I've met, tend to answer like this: "Well, if you can't see why its stupid, you're just too dumb to get it." In other words, they've got nothing. I have no doubt that you have a much better explanation. I'm talking about the Datas ship-to-ship flight, in case you're asking. There is no problem with repeating yourself. If the same scene happens in two movies, an explanation belongs in both of your ruminations.

[@reyjusuf]

Executive Decision was a pretty good film by Stuart Baird

[@brgrote]

Thank you for laying it all out like you always do.

[@numinous2506]

I've never let myself feel as deeply for a fictional character after Data's death.

[@Tajtusek]

Hey Arch, I wanted to comment on one of the points you made. Conquering Earth would be a crucial and an essential victory against the Federation. And here is why. When fighting the Federation you have to take into consideration that they are not the Soviet Union, not by a long shot though their ideology is similar. Federation would not be able to suffer millions of casualties and carry on fighting like the Soviets did. Or rather they wouldn't be able to when fighting an enemy that can be negotiated with. Borg are a different story altogether. Federation would crumble. So if you take Earth right under the Federation noses and turn it into a hostage you basically have the entire Federation on the ropes. Yes the Federation will be eager to take it back, and you as as the Romunal Star Empire just declare that for every day the Federation have not surrendered 10/100k/1mln people will be executed. And you don't just say you do it, you do it. Everyday people die. Everyday lives are snuffed out. At this point the ideological nature of Starfleet would be their undoing. If the Starfleet Captains knew that people are dying every day they are refusing to surrender and they can stop the process by laying down arms, their nature would dictate them to do it. You may argue that Spock "doctrine" of needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few would kick in but, don't forget that majority of the Human Captains and Crews have families, friends, relatives, loved ones etc on Earth. Families that are going to die if they don't surrender. This would either led to a peace treaty in which Romulans would dictate the terms. Terms that would be with all certainty massively unfavorable to the Federation. Romulans would be able to de-fang their greatest enemy for decades if not centuries making them a most powerful entity in the quadrant. Or... the Federation would splinter and collapse on itself. The logical Volcans would continue the fight while the Humans would surrender to save Earth. But if that happens Romulans are fighting an immensely weakened enemy that they have a high chance of defeating. And if any of this options happens. The Klingons would probably view the Fedeation as weak, wihout honor, sentimental etc. And might now want to support the Federation. The better option for them would be to ally themselves with the now strong, dominant, decisive Romulans like they did in the past. To prove this point you just need to recall the episode with alternative reality Enterprise-C, in which when Enterprise-C didn't thought the Romulans, Klingons decided that the Federation is unworthy and without honor, thus needs to be conquered. But when Shinzon goes rogue and says he will destroy Earth outright making it a "Pearl Harbor" event, the Romulan Military has to step in. Turning Earth into dust in not the main goal. Dissembling the Federation is. So trying to stop Shinzon becomes their priority, because as you stated RSE would be able to take on the post-Dominion war Federation head on. I will try to address your other points writing more comments (so not to muddy the waters with giant response), but I watched the movie a long time ago and some of my responses may be wrong.

[@TheDiplomat27]

I remember being excited about Nemesis because I thought it was going to be a great movie involving Romulans. In TNG, we had great episodes like The Enemy, The Defector and Unification. The Romulans were sneaky, manipulative, calculating and intelligent, a true foe to the Federation. Nemesis totally ruined the Romulans. It basically sidelined the Romulans and turned them into submissive servants of Schinzon. The Senate gets destroyed, Romulan military leaders are totally duped by Shinzon's promises of conquest, they kowtow to Schinzon and then a couple Romulan warbirds show up at th end for the big battle. Sad.

[@drksideofthewal]

I'm with you, Arch. From the time I was a little kid I've been a ship guy. It's what got me into Star Trek, long before I understood things like story and character development. I was in it for the space battles. So, naturally I thought the Scimitar was an awesome ship at the time.

[@awittyusernamepleaselaugh7481]

Y'know, I actually like the Scimitar. I like the design, I like how it looks, its on screen presence, etc. Heck, even its high tech stuff I love, the way it can do all those things I think is really cool... *but*, this was a TERRIBLE place to use it. If it was in say, a video game as a final boss? Heck yes. In fact, they have it in the Star Trek Armada 3 mod for Sins of a Solar Empire and it works really well as a titan. Also if it wasn't built by slaves in secret, that would work waaaay better. Maybe a Romulan super prototype made with yoinked Borg tech. I also really love that battle against it though, good god was that cool. Admittedly, only cool if you watch it on its own for all the explosions, nice shots, effects and music. Rest of that movie though? Screw it. Screw it soooo hard. The whole damn movie, has about three minutes of awesome. That is a crime.

[@werideatdusk]

"This is mind poison. This is actually worse than 'Threshold'". Love it. Great video and you hit it on the head. Its sad that Berman, spiner and Logan still think this is some genius movie. That's what hurts most. Insurrection sucked but it wasnt trying to make a grand statement, it was meant to be light. This movie tried to make a grand statement and failed utterly, and as you say, killed the TNG franchise ... Almost makes me wish they had just stopped with first contact.

[@nextstrayed]

I like Tom Hardy, but he was pretty dang bad in this movie. But then again, so was everyone. Gods this movie was something else. If it has any good points, the bad is so insulting that I could never be bothered to acknowledge them. My condolences for you having to watch this thing with the analytical mindset.

[@RoyalFusilier]

51:50 Mass Effect 3 reference goes here. We can't beat the Scimitar conventionally, Arch!

[@ShadowStoryteller]

I have to agree with you about the film. When I initially heard that they were doing a film with the Romulans in it, I was ecstatic. "Finally, a film about one of my favorite Trek Species (Cardassians being another)"...then the Senate is gutted and I just went, "What???". Then Shinzon shows up and we find that it's pretty much a military coup and then...and then, said Romulan Military does an about face because he's doing what they asked? You could just imagine a person in the theater picking up a figurative script and asking, "Excuse me, when did I lose the plot?". Finally, I personally think that the Reman Warbird was overpowered. The ability to fire cloaked, that could be explained (they technically had that since 6)...The enhanced armor and weapons, stretching the explaining but doable (they were in a war and the Remans were mentioned as master shipbuilders) but secondary shields and a "Doomsday Weapon", that's just throwing credibility out the window.

[@teddyharvester]

Well, normally a wooden role in a bad movie would probably be a career stopper, but turns out that Tom Hardy (Shinzon) got his act together after a while and seems to have turned out ok. Either acting classes or just got more picky about his roles.

[@Greaseball01]

teddyharvester kicking his crack addiction probably helped.

[@therealscarred2112]

ST:X was only Hardy's *third* credited role, so I would imagine that ANYONE playing the role so early in their career would certainly become more picky in their choices. ...and MUCH later, Hardy has stated he put his all into his performance (I imagine that having the vast majority of your scenes with Patrick Stewart would also force one not to make a fool of oneself) and that this was looking to be his "breakout role", but the extremely negative performance of the film both financially as well as the ire from the fanbase caused him to sink far deeper into his substances abuse issues, and it wasn't until 5 years later that he "faced his issues" concerning the film.

[@janlinhart7914]

The main screen being blown off into space was kinda cool. Only the force field should've kicked in sooner (like pretty much instantaneously). But it was still better than the mandatory "camera shakes, someone gets thrown to the ground two meters from their console to be found dead moments later". And the parting scene with Riker and Picard at the end was done quite nicely IMHO.

[@surivirus]

Thnx Archengeia aka Lorerunner aka I-didnt-got-your-real-name for your analyses of the classic ST movies.

[@Sagefox]

As a girl who is attracted to guys I can see what they mean by Shinzon being "sexy". His body type and facial features I find to look a bit handsome. The problem is the baldness looks really bad on him.

[@OhManTFE]

35:40 Well, Germany fell after the fall of Berlin?

[@Makrokosmos]

Btw: Trois detection of the scimitar was meanignless. Because the ship simply TANKED the enterprises firepower (the scimis shields never got broken...) and then turned around to blow up the E's bridge. It was shinzon SITTING his ship down in front of the enterprise, close enough to be rammed.... with impulse power...

[@jeffborowiak8992]

The nature vs environment theme really tides the movie over.

[@starwolf99]

Now I'm curious about your thoughts on Discovery and Picard. These series weren't conceived when the lamentation came out. The verdict is still out over whether they resurrected Star Trek.

[@StormsparkPegasus]

I feel sorry for Tom Hardy. He took the role in good faith, and was told it would be a breakout for him. The movie flopped, and he sunk into depression, drugs, and alcohol for years. He FINALLY got his big break as Bane in The Dark Knight Rises. He's not a bad actor, he wasn't a bad actor then. He was just 1) wrong for the part, and 2) TERRIBLY directed. He also played Max in Fury Road.

[@fightsports66]

Ironically the the next generation porn satire produced however many years back actually had a better storyline: Alternate Tasha was not dead, just in suspended animation. She was then released and returned to the Enterprise D, where she interacted with the crew even though she was from the alternate Klingon war universe. Then it turned out Sela had "programmed" Tasha like Shinzon had programmed B4 (to get information about the Enterprise without knowing she was actually doing it). When the truth was uncovered, Tasha ends up dying but at least she died surrounded by her friends.

[@Spawnfreak]

I thought you'd be okay with admiral Janeway. She's no longer in a Captains chair where she can't do any harm.

[@rexremedy1733]

star trek 10 - controlled demolition

[@04alsabi]

The worst of the pre-reboot films, in my opinion. I have a soft spot for the Final Frontier (I wish it could be retconned into a mad dream of Kirk's, which would explain away a lot of the goofs). Insurrection isn't particularly memorable, which helps it in an odd sort of way, since Nemesis is the one most fans seem to want to forget, yet can't. Putting the film up against The Two Towers was the final nail in the coffin.

[@aldenburton6240]

Yeah, after Star Trek 8 and victory over the Borg that one kid with his toy did not pose the threat he was supposed to.

[@tonyhern5000]

On the topic of the Troi rape, then she asks Picard if she can stop enduring the attacks, and just before Picard is beamed over to the other ship, he starts to say that she needs to keep enduring the attacks. TV show Picard never would have asked her to do that

[@benjaminstorace6699]

I was under the impression that Shinzon was literally going mad due to genetic decay, with the only reason the Remans remained loyal, being that Shinzon was the one who elevated them to the lofty position of "Mameluke", slave soldiers with power that could be used to improve their lot in the Romulan Empire.

[@timf7413]

Serious question: Is the Federation supposed to be particularly strong at this point in time? After back to back conflicts with the Borg and Dominion, I always thought they were supposed to actually be at depleted strength, not "the strongest they've ever been".

[@pocketheart1450]

You can't find one good scene? What about the scene where Picard goes to Data for advice? No mention of emotion chip, no ridiculous emotions, just Data, having, without artificial means, grown as a person to such an extent that Picard is going to him for advice. It's a great scene, and displays character growth for Data that was missing for Data in the previous 3 films. Data had really grown in this movie, he was where he should have been two movies ago. It's also a beautiful juxtaposition of where Data used to come to Picard for advice in the early days.

[@BeDangerousGroup]

They hired Hardy because "he was sexy". Then they shave his head, put prosthetics and scars on his face and cover his body with a full, dark costume.

[@hughsmith7504]

Note, not defending the movie, just pointing out where the story could have gone if written better. I think if you look at Shinzon's actions thru the lens of wanting the Empire destroyed, a lot of his actions make more sense. From killing the senate, to antagonizing Picard, to the Troi rape, to letting his ship get crippled by the Enterprise. All were designed to paint the Empire as about to wage a genocidal war on the Federation. This would guarantee a first strike against them, if not from the Federation, than the Klingons surly. Against an Empire with no leadership, the lose of the Remon mines/ workshops, and a significant lose of ships ( this was hinted more in the book than the movie, as the Remon liberation was quite bloody) The Empire would have been very likly been crippled, and with their enemies thinkiig they were using banned weapons, the destruction would be total, if no other reason than to ensure no more thoriron weapons were in play. All the While a certain blond Romulan smiled in the background, waiting for the perfect chance to save the Empire and seize power. That last part is my own twist, as it is such a shame they did not have Denise Crosby in the last TNG era movie

[@SeruraRenge11]

And then their sun blows up anyway from events completely unrelated to him.

[@lewisyaworski8962]

Lorerunner I know that I am 5 years too late to chip in on your lamentation on Nemesis, but I do have a thought. If somehow.....somehow....Paramount agreed to let TNG cast and writers make 1 more film, I think they could have at least salvaged the storyline/timeline and made some ret-cons to apologize to true fans of the series. Futhermore, I think the cast deserved better and Gates and Levar could have been given more to do in a 'Final" Big-Screen appearance.