Landlord electrical inspections from July!

Landlords! Does your rental property wiring need to be to 18th Edition standards to comply with legislation for electrical safety in England that comes into force from July 2020 for new tenancies, or April 2021 for existing?
In this long and boring ramble where I happen to repeat myself and cut off Nigel at every opportunity, we look at an installation that was rubber-stamped by a competitor as being UNSATISFACTORY. But is it? Is it really? We’re going to reinspect it and cite our sources for any disagreement we have to the conclusions drawn under what is otherwise a fairly competent and thorough inspection by a bona fide rival inspector that cost the client £192 and left them with a remedial bill somehow amounting to £750 plus VAT.
What do you think? Do you agree with the former inspector or with our differing conclusions? Do pop up in the comments and say why but keep the discussion polite. The usual bad language has already been expunged for the most part for any landlords or letting agents who may be venturing onto this channel not knowing what to expect. There isn’t a black-and-white answer, and we have to manage the expectations of our clients without compromising the safety of the tenants based on the advice and evidence at our disposal.
Besides the HSE notice on page 13 of the Blue Book, for those wanting an actual regulation, refer to page 237 and reg 651.2, note 2: "Existing installations may have been designed and installed to conform to previous editions of BS7671, applicable at the time of their design and erection. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe."
Links:
A follow-up video to this:
• Landlord Electrical In...
Government guidance, which rather confusingly says you must comply with 18th Edition… unless you don’t:
www.gov.uk/gov...
Electrical Safety First (Best Practice Guides):
www.electrical...
The Competent Persons Register from The Department for Communities and Local Government have a database of all registered electricians. Note however that there is nothing to differentiate electrical installers from electrical inspectors, so if you find someone on here, check their bona fides for performing inspection work:
competentperso...
There is also the Registered Competent Persons database where you can look up sparkies accredited through NAPIT and NICEIC to be performing electrical inspections (meaning they have been validated for the right insurance and qualifications). Many installation electricians aren’t, but still offer the service often resulting in a gash report:
www.electricalc...
Speaking of gash reports, here’s one I pulled apart a few weeks ago:
• The £85 EICR.... of pants
… that video being rather sweary, so here’s a link to a polite blog of the same content:
www.dses.co.uk...
NAPIT Codebreakers:
amzn.to/3f0yAF6 [affiliate link]
With iCertify, whom I mention in this video, I had some back-and-forth in 2016 when I argued that the ‘Maximum permitted Zs’ column which appears on their Schedule of Test Results and auto-calculates the maximum impedance based on the particulars of the circuit should be so named; it previously being labelled as just ‘Zs’ which at face value you take to be the recorded Zs for the circuit. It took about two weeks for them to concede and re-label the column during which time they sent responses along the lines that nobody else was complaining, the head of NAPIT technical says it’s okay and I can take my business elsewhere if I don’t like it. Well excuse me for trying to offer you a simple way to improve your damn product! That, operational bugs, some horrendous interface headaches and my hatred of touchscreen devices all meant I did take my business elsewhere, and I’ve been with Easycert since. Maybe iCertify has improved; it was a long time ago. I’ll never know as I don’t intend to ever fire the knobby thing up again.

[@JamesTutton80]

Hi David, thanks for raising this and common sence attidute to it. But if we were to play devils advocate on the law as its "written" in the legisation this means 18th Edition as a minimum standard so no rental property is allowed to conform to a previous standard then what would the implication be? Could a property comply with 2 colour codes for example? Ie under the letter of the law does that mean that most landlords in the country need to displace there existing tenents rip up floors chase out walls etc etc. Im aware this is a silly approach but if it "must" be 18th Edition then taken the hardline view what is the impact of that? I.e for 10mins be the bastard inspector and consider singing off a standard 19 year old installation with no deviations from the regs. What sort of impact As landlord with an interest in electronics and electrical enginering (but a non electrician) just interested in the views on the potential impact of this regualtion as it reads so can raise it with NLA and local MP etc to see if we can get some clarity in the law. Personally I'm in support of additional safety/conveniance in the form of RCD's and RCBO but if the law states 18th or bust then we have a big issue. SOURCE www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/pdfs/uksi_20200312_en.pdf “electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(b);

[@dsesuk]

Well, that's the issue right there James; how far does one interpret that? Does a 20yo installation require full rip out and refurbish because its wiring colours don't meet 18th Edition spec? Does an older installation "pass" the 18th Edition test if still conforming to its design because of the HSE notice and Regulation 651.2 which states "Existing installations may have been designed and installed to conform to previous editions of BS7671, applicable at the time of their design and erection. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe"? If the guidance for inspectors is that older installations can be passed with C3 conditions on the kind of things seen here, then will new guidance now be issued to say inspectors should 'Code C3.... unless it's a rental property." If the intention is to see all rental properties upgraded to the latest standard, when is that to be achieved by as it certainly won't be done in the next fortnight? If properties are upgraded, what happens when an amendment or new Edition comes out; do those changes have to be implemented, and how quickly? Personally, I doubt an installation like this one is a danger if not upgraded, at least not unless the tenant undertakes their own unauthorised alterations to the place, so to me it seems this can be passed without my being in fear of LABC, HSE, NLA or anyone else hauling me up under EAWR, but it puts inspectors in a tough position: demand the landlord coughs up for an upgrade, or risk not complying with legislation even if you think it is suitable for continued use. I can't say I care for that.

[@ianmalone8053]

James Tutton , hi was under the view that they regs are a guide. IE your meant to use your view, also it’s always personal when it goes wrong they will not chase regulators when it’s an issue created by the rules. As a point remember all the electrics going off in homes because someone turned a light on . Rules said protect circuits with RCD , so they were put on Mains cheapest and simplest way .

[@alanturner3546]

Well actually if the electricians did apply the Regulations strictly as written they would cause such a storm amongst Landlords then something would be done about this nonsense. By "interpreting" the Regulations you are hiding the problem and allowing the numpties who write this stuff to get away with it..

[@octymocty132]

Yeah but the reason why the regs keep changing is money Money to re train to new regs money for new books The only up date it should need is to get rid of twin an earth and use 3core flex as the cpc is sheathed right out of packet butthe cost needs to come down

[@fightdisciple9192]

Just because it was good in the 16th edition doesn’t mean it should still pass now. RCD’s save lives. C2 for no RCD on socket & luminaire circuits . Plastic board C3. Only a C2 if under a wooden staircase with the only exit route. It’s about common sense & tenants should be provided with a safer install should there be a way to make it available. It’s also about understanding the codes.

[@vman2kay]

It's not boring. It's not like your other videos but you guys manage to convey it in an interesting way and keep people engaged. Good stuff!

[@mikeg8835]

The words from my tutor at my last stint in college " The wiring regulations ARE NOT RETROSPECTIVE " .....says it all

[@michaelcostello6991]

Great video. In between entertainment jokes you guys give great detailed information in all your videos that is easy to follow for novices. This puts your channel ahead of many more that are out there for learning and also entertainment. Please release more videos with the same practical detail you are presently doing. Thank you very much.

[@djb774]

14th to 15th ahh Happy memories! Earthing metal window frames so the window cleaner doesn’t get a belt 😂

[@rmchaddad]

The dubbed swear words are absolutly brilliant. The most informative thing ive seen on this subject by a long way and kudos for not turning the clients inside out when there's no need. Keep up the good work lads

[@dennisphoenix1]

The requirements for rcd protection as a minimum for sockets to be used for outdoor use is a 16th edition one , we would fit rcd sockets near the front and back doors . I was fitting memera 2000 split boards on rewires 26 years ago to give rcd protection to showers and sockets. I think we should have stopped there , rcd protection for fixed equipment circuits and lighting is over the top to me

[@sheargillsparkie9588]

I watched this in two parts, thoroughly enjoyed every bit of content. Very honest assessment of an installation highlighting unreasonable choices made by individuals. This is a perfect demonstration of using your professional expertise, honesty and integrity, to determine the condition of an existing installation with an extremely helpful and clear explanation of the reasons behind critical points, studiously referenced. We all do inspections slightly differently from one another, but this is an excellent example of guidance used from Napit code breakers and electrical safety standards, that assists you if your unsure. If anything this content gives clear examples of observations made and the context in which it should be recorded. Very informative. Many thanks.

[@ManxAndy]

It may have been a long one........Fnarr.......but your common sense / no nonsense / professional approach to the job is applauded, a well executed and explained video 👍🇮🇲

[@Danny-do2ov]

Absolutely love your uploads! Always great content and you two have a laugh with it. Top Guys!! Keep up the great work.

[@esfae8250]

Hello Dave, This video represents why you always have work and never chase for it. Pride is always a better felling than mugging someone off. I work predominantly in the Fire Alarm sector and the bollocks I read daily is laughable. A customer trusting you in the long run leads to work and recommendations. Keep up the great work.

[@dsesuk]

Thanks for tuning in again. You're right, a reputation can be built on honesty, although it'll never make you rich!

[@Rad_Dad_Army]

You knowledge is amazing and I love learning from you. Can tell your a straight up honest spark and I respect that. Keep up the great videos.

[@olly7673]

Great video once again and I think the often mentioned comment of it being too long is unfounded as your regular followers will always enjoy your "ramblings", as I did with this. There is always the Stop button if watchers don't enjoy it. As for the regs, I would say to treat it like an MOT for something like an E type Jag or 1960s Mini. They were constructed to drive, stop and corner safely and an MOT by a qualified examiner made sure that it continued to do so and identified if someone tinkered, or failed to maintain them in between MOTs to make them unsafe. If the cars were maintained to do as they did when first constructed, without making the owner install fuel injection, ABS and Stability Control, they pass the MOT. My opinion is the Government are doing the same to make sure the installations in rented properties are still as safe as the first installation by having an "Examiner" verify it is still safe. I think their use of "18th Edition" has been misinterpreted. In fact it specifically says in BS7671 is not retrospective. An EICR should state if the installation has been maintained safe as when first installed but with the bonus of sharing the "examiner's" expertise on how the landlord could make it better through observations. On a personal level I think, for the limited cost, all installations should have RCDs retro-fitted if there are spare ways, or even a separate enclosure, though not necessarily a board change. Talking of being "too long" apologies for the lengthy comment!

[@johndavies4644]

Olly you don’t rent a classic car to a family for school runs! So why do we allow allow a house with 70 plus year old wiring to be rented out to a family in 2020. Sucking loads it was never designed to handle. Half the cars in the 60s were that underpowered you’d have to go up a hill in reverse.. apt for the time.. a street used to have 1 car on the road , usually a ford lol..there are several million cars on roads now and we use more electric than ever before..unless it’s for a historic purpose replace or knockdown. My old rental house had toggle switches in the cellar, no rcds..joke tbh.. sockets melted in kitchen... used to blow bulbs all the time as well..

[@dbrown51967]

a very interesting video indeed. this actually happened my landlord brought in a electrician to carry out an inspection at my home (god knows why as the landlord allready has it's own teams of contractors for all trades) it's as if he was trying to create work for himself to come back for. when he finished and left i phoned the landlord and pointed out that not everything had been checked exterior lights loft light the hallway socket which the landlord knew wasn't earthed and tried making out the ceiling fan wasn't earthed even though it was, he was slackening off ceiling roses by bashing them with a large screwdriver leaving debris on the beds floor ect.the consumer unit wasn't metal and so on. landlord got another spark in to check again and apart from the unearthed socket he found no problem and we still have the plastic consumer unit today.

[@nrg-5003]

4:38😂 you should consider comedy you are a natural, as always very informative video and a great laugh👍

[@dsesuk]

I'd better stick with the day job.

[@stevegrimwood5109]

Makes perfect sense to me - A thorough thoughtful inspection backed up with experience, reasoning and technical documents and a beautiful looking assistant to boot - what’s not to like 😜

[@brandonjones156]

Fantastic, informative video, and some brilliant "alternative expletives". Great that you give an honest account of the installation, point out that it was installed well originally and that the guy who did the original EICR did a lot of things well. Not a slagging off video. An honest Sparky (and Nige) who wasn't gonna charge his client for unnecessary work, she should have called you in the first place and saved herself £190. I'm currently training, and did think that all installations HAVE to meet 18th edition standard from July 1st 2020, but your reasoning makes perfect sense. None that are 5 years old or more will meet 18th edition standards, and to keep up, would be making alterations every time a new amendment came out. Would be very expensive for the landlords etc, and may even make already safe installations unsafe. There are so many differing opinions on coding, but the guy was NAPIT registered and coded differently to their own code? There's no way the client would have paid £190 if the guy had said on the phone that it was gonna fail, even before he looked at it. Keep up the good work, and the fun videos

[@adamsharp201]

Learn your training and qualify as an NVQ level 3 spark before u comment

[@jonathanbrown9245]

I always use analogies to customers. A customer asks if there 1990's property should comply with the 18th edition, i would say a classic car built without a seat belt does not legally require a new seat belt fitting. Page 13 of the 18th Edition is in the 18th Edition, So in a way a older board and wiring is accounted for in the 18th edition? So if its safe for the period it was built it complies with the 18th Edition as of page 13?

[@dsesuk]

Interesting way to look at it!

[@MysteriousDrJ]

Good little get out clause that 👍. We had a drive by EICR done at our company building by PHS (door mat and sanitry bin company), they decided to C2 all our C50 DB's that are still in (as installed condition) - because they don't comply with current standards. When I was asked to look further in to the C2 reports, I just waved the Page 13 at them. Utter Utter Bar Stewards!

[@eddymart1]

Jonathan, you must have had an Niceic inspector named Phil, as he always says that, and what a good way to explain, to a non electrical minded client.

[@SeanPearceUK]

Exactly my thoughts (as somebody who has to deal with compliance in a completely different area of expertise, it's always good to point out to our customers they are usually compliant because of similar clauses in "the latest" spec.)

[@Stop..carry-on]

Ive used a similar analogy - only used airbags cause most people can recall driving a car without one

[@davidsilvester8965]

Good Video again men, RCDs were mentioned in the 15th edition regs in a brief way, and the company I worked for back then in Soho started prepping us that they were going to come into force in a bigger way at some stage.

[@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse]

Very F*****g informative Dave thanks, I guess there is a lot of room for maneuvering by testers depending on how much work they are looking to bring in to the business. BTW I brought up your Makita bluetooth fix elsewhere and was informed the new ones have it as standard, time to upgrade :D

[@dsesuk]

Cheers Andi. As for buying a new radio instead of modding the old one, well where's the fun in that?!

[@jacktissington]

I'm glad the landlord stuff in Scotland is easier to understand and less ambiguous. Reading that gov.uk stuff shows that even the government them selves haven't got a scooby doo

[@dsesuk]

The Scots always seem to have a more common sense approach. Maybe I should migrate north!

[@jacktissington]

You should no part p and better easier to understand building regs

[@RWATraineeElectrician]

The expunged expletives are even funnier 😆😆😆

[@DanielPinel]

The A.S.S.H.O.L.E system is brilliant, isn't it?

[@GiffordsElectrical]

Love a good David Savery video. Never a dull moment except maybe pat testing 🤣🤣. Love it David 🙌🙌

[@MarshallBF]

I know this is 2 years old, but in Czech Republic the law says exactly as you describe it - that is: it needs to meet the requirements that were at place of design (also I thought this was whole EU thing, but I am not sure any more (haven looked it up for some time). There are some implication for insurance companies - such as having 40 year old aluminium wiring, simple breakers and no additional protection, but since it was valid at the time of construction, no one can legally do anything about it, but you will either pay higher insurance or cannot get it at all. Edit: and this video is not boring at all, the points you make touch general safety procedures. Big respect to you and Nigel!

[@dsesuk]

Thanks for tuning in Jan

[@doctorelectric470]

good video David, I was a bit put off by the title so watched it when I had the time but glad we are both saying the same thing. I have a landlord EICR coming up and as far as I can see there's nothing that has changed from doing the actual testing apart from the landlord has 28 days in which to carry out remedial work or face a fine of up to £30,000

[@oliverriall]

As a man out and about on his own I rarely get a sensible chat, but I thoroughly enjoy your vids as I come away feeling satisfied in that department.

[@dsesuk]

I'm glad we could virtually engage again Oli!

[@bernieg4ovp]

Love The Videos, Glad I am not the only one who thinks a Ring Main is a bad idea, For me now it's feet up and enjoy the videos, ex Coal board underground electrician, Retired, it's another world down there.

[@bearelectrics3524]

As a fellow electrician this is one of the best videos on EICR I have seen in a long time. We are in an industry where sometimes even the grey areas are black or should that be sleeved as brown. We follow regs and interrupt them in our own way - but bottom line is we must ensure our work does not cause danger and safeguards the public. Too many times I see failed reports where the sparky is purely trying to extract money - David covers a few examples in this video where previous good work has just been unravelled and installed like a spiders web full of bugs. David - keep up the great work and information flow

[@jacobatkin7679]

Found this to be really informative and interesting, as a former offshore sparky now doing the testing and inspecting course, found this video great. Currently working as a door engineer and entrance system service tech, trying to get into the domestic game

[@dsesuk]

Cheers Jacob, thanks for watching.

[@user-yw6qb9tt7t]

Surely the letting agent coerced the client to use the competition instead of you. It is what letting agents do. Skim off or get back handers !

[@markbriggs6786]

David well done on showing good common sense around the electrical regulations after all the regulations are bounded by good codes of practice the law is based on the electricity at work etc act which is binding in law . The problem revolves around interpretation of the regulations and the lack of parity and quality of the electricians /electrical engineers especially at the domestic level for installations . Stick to you guns David I’m sick to death of the upgraded editions of the regulations it’s all about making manufacturers more money all of which could be covered by amendments to the existing regulations which could be printed off and added to the existing regs book . Looks like the first contractor to test the system has done a generic job on the installation failing it when there is absolutely no need or cause to fail the installation it’s all about making easy money , by all means make recommendations but don’t fail the installation if it’s not required.

[@russlees2589]

Finally a KZbin sparky who knows what's he's talking about. Sad bastard that I am kept watching for the full video, I must get myself a life. Do this shit everyday then watch others doing it why!

[@raywelshman]

Hi Dave and Nigel, I hope KZbin don't take too much notice about your humorous warning at the beginning of this fine example of British humour, I find the edited expletives equally funny, however I noticed that you mostly looked at the camera so that the deaf viewers can lip read to save turning on subtitles. Keep up the good work Dave, very best regards from the old bugger from North Wales.

[@dsesuk]

Ray old man! Good to hear from you again! Yes, we left some mouth-movements in for those in the know to interpret!

[@leightonhughes1635]

Been brought to your site recently Dave by the tube algorithms. I am finding your knowledge depth, delivery and banter with 'Nige' absolutely brilliant. Although I am in fire & safety there's definitely a cross over and its helping me no end to understand whats required by clients especially HMO's. Its shocking what I see in my daily life and I would never pretend to be a spark !! Just common sense with alot of the things I see. Love it - Im binge watching with a bottle of vino blanco !!

[@dsesuk]

Welcome Leighton, it's nice to have you here!

[@leightonhughes1635]

Thank you sir !

[@davidclarke2513]

I was carrying out a test an inspection on a commercial property in 2018 when I got an unexpected visit from an electrical inspector who said I was not to carry out any live testing with probes on exposed electrical parts and should use calculus to find those results,of course I nodded my head and said OK then waited for him to bugger off and went on and continued to live test,and as for not having to pt cpc leads to socket back boxes I disagree with you because you are correct regarding the 18th edition but I prefer to use good electrical practise rather than their bs

[@nickytesla1596]

The Napit code book etc are just for dwellings and not specifically for private rented properties as the reg requests.

[@montystelevision3238]

It's nice to watch a video that isn't ruined by loads of annoying adverts for monday.com or "dont' skip this advert if you need new spectacles".

[@l4Green]

Welcome back Nige! Good video chaps, thought provoking. Loved the dubbing, genius. I’m not sure clients understand the retrospective nature of an inspection. If the client had called and asked to inspect and bring it up to date with ‘current regs’ they might be asking for something they don’t need but maybe they do. Education.

[@dsesuk]

Thanks for watching Big G.

[@l4Green]

David Savery Electrical Services always... I’m a fanboy!

[@porkbap55]

I was 15th trained rcds were not needed like you said in the 16th it came in IF you were to have say sockets on the ground floor to plug in an appliance (mower pressure washer etc) used outside the installation even if you had a 1st floor flat and you had a socket outlet on the ground floor (by the door going up) you had to have an RCD on either the circuit or even just an RCD socket in its place Dave 👍(also garage supply via swa etc as well) Then came the use of an RCD in bathroom ie shower supply as well ,great watch as always you clucking funts are funny lolll

[@dsesuk]

Thanks for that, interesting to hear of the requirement on ground floor sockets!

[@johnwaby4321]

As far as I know the NICEIC changed the test certification reports as the older ones a lot of people carrying out electrical installation periodic test where putting a lot of faults on a code 4. Hence no repairs where getting Carried out. The whole idea for the new forms was to try and get people to have the repairs carried out.. I know thing are not clear cut for us testing everyone puts different codes on the cert . But some installation are worse than others ... Following on from the test you have redone . How does the napit codebreakers book item section 5.10 page 37 fit in with your findings .. If you did give a satisfactory report . If the client ask you to redo the lighting in the bathroom or install some extra sockets . How would you tell the client that you have to change the consumer unit to give rccd protection. . So you have to cover yourself on your certificate so the client knows of the extra costs involved with any extra work under taken in the future. .

[@roadrunner3320]

Good Point

[@mathman0101]

Who says the 18th edition is safe? It’s a minimum standard. It’s a basic benchmark but you need to layer on a risk-based approach you might find a dangerous condition that requires you to go beyond the 18th edition because the property layout means you need to do it to make it safe. The problem of risk based approach is all depends how diligent you are. Good judgement hopefully resides in good electricians but even they can mistakes. Humility, diligence and willingness to learn that’s the key.

[@dsesuk]

Very good point. Too many people are ignorance led unfortunately; they do things because that's how they've always done it or because their mate said it should be done that way over a pint instead of looking up the facts for themselves. Of course, it doesn't help that the regs themselves are so unapproachable and that multiple sources need to be referred to in order to get straight answers. Guidance notes, best practice guides, publications such as Codebreakers, the OSG and Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations all being just some examples of what you need to plough through for an answer in plain English!

[@lewis94uk]

@@dsesuk Spot on there, for years I didn't fit 3A fuses for fans that required them if they were on a 6A lighting circuit or insulation resistance test circuits protected by RCDs all because when I was an apprentice somebody told me you didn't need to, he was a very good electrician just old and always done it his way.

[@mathman0101]

One thing I will say about you David is your restless curiosity and intellect they drive you to do things others just dismiss. The whole PAT work many electricians are happy to let it slide as not their cup of tea it’s boring and repetitive. Your knowledge in this area can tell a customer that what you found in testing a circuit is a result of some faulty appliance on its way out that’s valuable information. More than that as we move into the future the ubiquity of smart devices many DC type devices they are likely to play more havoc on circuits even when operating normally and being able to test and identify and narrow down the problem will be key. Your work on such things will put you at an advantage. Your ahead of your time.

[@matthewdale956]

Loved Nige’s thought provoking and insightful Input at the end “ I’m getting bored now” ...brilliant😂😂

[@dsesuk]

He looked bored from the beginning!

[@matthewdale956]

David Savery Electrical Services haha yeah he did 😂,good video btw,we’ve been waiting for years for this to become mandatory and as usual it gets fucked up by dickheads

[@tlangdon12]

Thanks for the excellent video. I'm a landlord and am aware of these changes, but I wasn't aware that installations had to meet the 18th Edition! I read the primary legislation, because as you point out, the GOV.UK website is contradictory - unfortunately, the primary legislation confirms the requirement is compliance with the 18th Edition (and an EICR every 5 years). The legislation also requires that any C2 issues are fixed within 28 days (and C1 issues more quickly). Any C3 issues (if they relate to non-compliance with an 18th Edition minimum standard) create a breach which can be enforced by a local authority. I do hope the 18th edition doesn't mandate the use of harmonised colours otherwise every rental property in the UK built since 2004 will need rewiring! Yikes!

[@dsesuk]

It is unfortunately worded Tony because I don't think the intention is to enforce all rental properties in England to be 18th Edition in two weeks from now. If that were the intent, they'd have given a longer timeframe and it would be massive industry news. I think enforcement by local authority is just something they can use should an inadequate installation come to their attention rather than one that is simply pre-2016 otherwise, as you say, technically every site would need a full rewire to correct the wiring colours that no longer conform!

[@gritpipethin]

@@dsesuk Perhaps lots of little bits of sleeving would be acceptable?

[@adamsharp201]

You're a landlord not a qualified electrician so no your place mate. U have no clue about our regs. Its easy using Google for information u fool

[@marcwilliams3921]

Glad to see the pair of u working together 👍

[@dsesuk]

More shirking than working here Marc.

[@neerajg433]

Hi David great video again, good content, look forward to your next video as there is always something to learn Thanks

[@Blitterbug]

Another feature-length special. Better than Netflix, this! Nice to have Nige back, too.

[@johncooper5293]

Spot on, thorough report. Just had a look at 16th edition BS7671 and RCD only required on TT systems for sockets or for TN, outside connected equipment only. Can't see they'd be using a lawnmower anytime soon. So you've proven the installation is still safe so RCD only as recommendation as you've said.

[@dsesuk]

Cheers John. I'll have to try and find an old 16th Edition copy for my own research!

[@stuartrhoades4306]

This highlights the problem with saying installations comply with previous editions of the regs, electricians don't carry copies of previous wiring regulations, so really you have to test to the current edition. The circuit earth used to be run around the house separately wrapped around nails in the joists,rewirable fuses and fuses in neutrals, if you came across a property installed that way would you pass it, if the test results were ok.

[@markdoyle9406]

Great vid! however c3 in electrical safety first for RCDs concealed less then 50mm is a C2 in code breakers. so here is where all the confusion lies. 1 says 1 thing another says something completly different. Should be same across the board. also regarding the price of the CCU other lad may be sticking in RCBOs @ £25+Vat a pop.

[@TheEmbeddedHobbyist]

I'm not an electrician, but I'm used to reading standards and testing to them for CE marking and Aerospace. If one standard points to a second standard and states that it must meet that standard. Then all requirements should be meet and all statements in that standard are valid. So if edition 18 states that a installation design to a older edition, must meet the requirements of that edition it will by default meet the 18th requirements, where is the problem.

[@dsesuk]

Good input again TEH. I'm working on a follow-up where I'll mention this!

[@roadrunner3320]

Im a landlord, Excuse my question, So that means the Consumer Unit has to be changed to a metal one ?

[@dsesuk]

​@@roadrunner3320 There is no requirement to change the consumer unit without good reason. It simply being plastic isn't such a reason, even if located under wooden stairs or in a sole escape route. If it's damaged, deteriorated, improperly modified, shows signs of thermal effects or is in any way inadequate for continued use, then it would be required to be upgraded, and that upgrade would be for a metal enclosure model to comply with today's regulations. If it's none of the above and is just plastic because it pre-dates the changes that came into effect in 2016, then that in itself is not a requirement for upgrading.

[@alanturner7962]

Nice informative video. Lots of house to flat conversation in towns with big houses. Whatch out for the sockets mounted on the scirting board. Nightmare

[@montystelevision3238]

I suspect that PA and J Gregory Electrical Contractors of Water Orton, Birmigham, proudly installed the electrics to the standard at the time.

[@OldSonyMan]

The inspection is to find 'bad Stuff' and when you find 'bad Stuff' it gets upgraded to 'the new thing' ! (Entirely my guess !)

[@brightspark263]

Absence of RCD is a C3 in my book too, I wouldn't C2 at all! That legislation for landlords is absolute nonsense, as you say Dave it contradicts itself numerous times.

[@doncodman913]

Hi David. My interpretation of this vid is ... if someone phones up for the test and you ask how old the place is you were saying it will fail !!!!... but you have proved that a property over 5 years will not AUTOMATICALLY FAIL but WOULD benefit from improvements . Good to see a tradesman so passionate about the rule book. Regards Don

[@dsesuk]

Thanks Don. I'm saying it shouldn't be an automatic fail and that improvements should certainly be recommended, but many out there are dismissing anything without an RCD and/or in a plastic enclosure as failures before they've finished wiping their boots on the doormat on the way in.

[@alantorrance6153]

It is marvelous to see two honest electricians at work -- bucking the incorrect "officials".

[@dsesuk]

I can't guarantee we're correct here Alan, we're just trying to navigate yet another grey area the boffins have shit onto us!

[@andrewdonagher6497]

Great to see you lads back together nice video

[@dsesuk]

The band's back together!

[@steveme4665]

I think nigel is totally mesmerised by the final testing and results hes waiting for the chemist to open for his next methadone fix 😳🤔😄👍😂

[@davenorth1265]

Even after 25 years it's nice to see confirmation that i'm not a complete nobber at I&T. I use an actual extension lead as my wander lead. I like that you just add the water bond on. I'm going to copy that if you don't mind, whether you like it or not! That guff about "the consumer unit not being made of a non-combustible enclosure" is a prepared statement on Icertifi's program. The tails to backboxes was removed by the 16th. I remember an argument at work about it. The only reg in the 16th that demanded this happen was when in a conduit installation the conduit was forming the earth, which makes sense doesn't it!

[@delspark]

The boys are back in town 👍 totally agree with your interpretation of the codes, unfortunately this is going to become a little money maker for those with lack of knowledge and not competent to be undertaking EICR,s

[@dsesuk]

17th Edition Amendment 3 was just that, this just lines the cowboy's pockets even more. The conspiracy theorist in me says the likes of the IET like to make changes and keep things ambiguous to boost sales of new consumer units and accessories. Someone's getting rich out of all this, and it ain't me!

[@jayja45]

Lost it at “dog fondlers”!

[@marksaunders8490]

This video C1 all language needs upgrading to the new standards. Excellent and we'll informed chaps ....

[@dsesuk]

Language remedials underway to ensure full foul-mouthiness for the next one.

[@UberAlphaSirus]

I have not been squirted by a sprung a cocker in a long time. Especialy by a golden brown one. That's going on the special hard drive. Slept through it too, must be the lithium.

[@titmando1199]

Another quality video, very informative about the nonsense that goes on with the wording of regs, I really enjoyed it :D

[@markyd2633]

Great vid....gonna upset a few sparkys who have been rubbing their hands together waiting for the new guidelines......only spat me tea out at the very end......keep em coming and welcome back to the Big fella

[@dsesuk]

Thanks Marky. Those sparkies you mention won't be too upset. They wouldn't put the time into watching this nonsense and they wouldn't change their ways even if you beat them with a rolled up copy of 7671. It's just about the money with them.

[@Istari_01]

Educational and funny to boot! It made me wonder where sparkies go to buy their light fittings etc., clearly the usual DIY shops are lethal! 🕺🏽🍻🍻

[@georgemcclelland5207]

For the switched line conductor being the wrong colour, you appeared to highlight the wrong line in the codebreaker book, the one you highlighted says C3 if the wrong line colour is used (presumably referring to 3 phase colours) but C2 if a non line colour is used. Surely black old colour for neutral would be a non line colour.... Except of course they were sleeved so it's all nonsense anyway 1:09:52

[@garylatto4191]

Thanks yet again guys for another interesting video and glad to see uve got your shadow back dave 👍

[@dsesuk]

The hairy shadow that smells of potatoes...

[@drd7209]

So, landlords may very well be held to ransom by their local friendly electrician, maybe unintendedly because the electrician doesn’t fully understand the guidelines laid down by the government. Could be an expensive time for landlords and as a knock-on effect I imagine tenants too.

[@dsesuk]

It is a problem Philip as it's all so unapproachable. It's not written for the man on the street, and guidance is split across many different publications and sites. You have to go out of your way to pull it all together and work out how to interpret the (often) contradictory advice.

[@steverobinson8170]

Also a problem for sparks further down the line if and when the rules are clarified , you flag up works , that are later clarified as not required your going to have a very pissed off customer who may well come after you for a refund , you certainly won't be getting any recomendations

[@mb-electricalservices]

This explains the crap-ton of Domestic Fixed Wire testing jobs that are suddenly appearing on the usual job finding sites. Nice video. 👍

[@thesparkowski]

In addition to the whole 18th edition as a minimum standard malarky, the "Guide for landlords: electrical safety standards in the private rented sector" .gov page contains one more crucial forkup - in paragraph "5. The inspection" it provides links to two websites where landlords can find "competent inspectors and testers". The first website is just a useless link to ESR blurb page, but the second link is to a private, non .gov site (electricalcompetentperson) run by a ltd company jointly owned by the CE of NAPIT and MD of Certsure. And lo and behold - the website .gov "Guide for landlords" links to - is a list of approved contractors from NAPIT and NICEIC only. No Stroma, Elecsa, Besca, Benchmark or any other alternatives listed. I think by now we all realise CPS is an apple rotten from the core out - NAPIT owns Stroma, Certsure owns NICEIC and Elecsa while ECA owns Certsure (together with Electrical Safety First, formerly known as Electrical Safety Council, formerly known as.... NICEIC). Yes, head hurts - the point is - in reality there are only two (or one and a half??) allmighty motherships running this whole industry anyway. And yet somehow the cheek of two "lesser directors" within those motherships to hijack .gov "Guide for Landlords" to advertise NICEIC and NAPIT is still a surprise for me and makes me angry - obviously because I myself am an inspector and tester registered with a scheme other than NAPIT or NICEIC - so I'm not listed there - and a crony link on .gov site suggests to my customers that I'm not (to quote) an "electrical inspector registered to undertake electrical safety reports in homes in England and Wales". Motherlovers.

[@dsesuk]

Damn. I've been promoting the registered competent person site as I thought it was inclusive of all CPS schemes. Thanks for the heads-up on this. Which scheme are you with?

[@thesparkowski]

@@dsesuk I'm with Stroma (not practical for me to switch to NICEIC AC because they insist on assessments 30 minutes from office address, that's not where my commercial clients are). But yes - competentperson.co.uk (the one regulated by The Department for Communities and Local Government) lists all the contractors, but electricalcompetentperson.co.uk as listed by .gov Guide is privately owned "imposter site" with similar name listing only NICEIC and NAPIT. :(

[@dsesuk]

@@thesparkowski Thanks for that, I didn't realise it was the case. I shall update the pages where I link to this.

[@123mikeyd321]

FFS, that's an hour and a half I'll never get back :-) Great!

[@dsesuk]

Refund is in the post Mike.

[@fatblokes_ferguson]

Sorry, not sure if it was mentioned before, but I like the support for the good breakfast providers McDonald 👍

[@Chris-hy6jy]

Personally, I'd strongly recommend a CU change. It only takes a dodgy appliance to be plugged in with a broken earth conductor and you have a potentially dangerous situation. The system earthing may be great but you can't account for some of the crap equipment tenants plug in. Just my 2p. Keep up the good work guys 👍

[@dsesuk]

RCD protection is certainly a recommendation. For the dodgy appliance though, you'd have to have two faults: one to make the metalwork live and another to see the protective conductor failed. I'm not saying it can't happen, but such a situation being possible doesn't mean a 21yo installation has to be written off. I prefer to put the client in the picture and let them assess the risk rather than demanding they undertake an upgrade and withholding a pass report until they do.

[@dl8966]

i see your point but Wouldn't the landlord require that appliance to have a PAT carried out before placing it in a rented property?

[@tresslerj1985]

@@dl8966 EWR electricity at work regulations. Not at home regulations. If your employer provides you with any equipment there are regulations to follow to make usre the equipment is safe to use while under taking your paid role. Thus they have to have an asset register and periodic testing and training. In a home you could find a toaster on the beach and bring it home and use it in the bath. If you die is that the landlords fault?

[@Chris-hy6jy]

@@dsesuk while I agree it's unlikely, it is possible. Also with mains filtration on appliances these days, it's common to have capacitive coupling to earth, hence the small amount of earth leakage we measure. That's fine if the earth conductor is intact, if not, the metal case will float at some potential. All I'm saying is that personally, I'd not be putting my name to any non-rcd protected installation in 2020, especially a rented one. As competent electricians, we need to go beyond the bare minimum standards mentioned in these regs. RCD protection in this case is a no-brainer... in my humble opinion 😉

[@stuartrhoades4306]

@@Chris-hy6jy I'm actually with you on this, I think all socket outlets should be rcd protected on a rental property now. The trouble with giving it a c3 for absence of rcd's is, they'll be recommended on the next report and the one after that, the recommended upgrade never happens. I would personally c3 absence of rcd's for switch drops, if the rest of the installation was in good condition though.

[@paulf2529]

Brilliant and to the point as ever. The analogy of antique cars and seatbelts as mentioned in the comments is great in this instance.

[@michaelcostello6991]

Was the isolator to oven a double pole switch ? Would it affect the IR reading if neutral was not switched ?

[@cjkokay]

I couldn't agree more. Same in NZ or Aus, technically complied with regs at time of install and can remain in service unless unsafe. Sure there have been additional mandatory requirements like rcds, but that doesn't necessarily trigger the latest regs.

[@dsesuk]

Thanks for the view from down under. It's always beneficial to upgrade for safety of course, but the people I have issue with are those who demand it unquestioningly.

[@hannahranga]

Interestingly Australia makes it way easier (from what I've seen), in order to sell or rent a house it needs RCDs.

[@antjohn5383]

Australian wiring has deep faults my friend, as an Aussie sparky I hate that we have to wire whole boards in singles with all of the feeds twisted together in single pole main switch. Also switch boards full of RCDs are moutned outside in ip44 panels with heaps of morning dew increasing I to the switchgear. Good thing about Australia is all sparkys are Licensed but the wiring rules are shocking . Both of the above in the UK are the complete opposite. Hard to gauge what's best ... as having rcbos on every circuit has heaps of leakage current tripping here. Good comment Dave in Peel , Western Australia

[@RaithUK]

Long, Rambly... but well argued and reasoned with citations.. Carry on chaps i think your doing splendid and i enjoyed it.

[@dsesuk]

Thank you for coming back for more of my tosh!

[@nickbengtsson6518]

You dont have to note agreed limitations as you listed because its on the front page of the report as shown below. EXTENT AND LIMITATIONS OF INSPECTION AND TESTING The inspection and testing detailed in this report and accompanying schedules have been carried out in accordance with BS 7671:2018 (IET Wiring Regulations) as amended to 2018. It should be noted that cables concealed within trunking and conduits, under floors, in roof spaces, and generally within the fabric of the building or underground, have not been inspected unless specifically agreed between the client and inspector prior to the inspection. An inspection should be made within an accessible roof space housing other electrical equipment

[@MagnetechSolidSolutions]

Start using the Irish T+E from Meteor...... sleeved cpc and same cross sectional area across all three conducters. Quick second fix and test .

[@ajkhan743]

Great video great laughs Mate the biggest problem is 1 not everybody knows how to test. 2 the price some people are doing a test for 40£ called the 5 min test

[@andrewwilson4402]

Dave u are good. No sarcasm 😒 intended. Love 😘 to Nigel and urself. Very factual video. I watched it all. Fellow spark here. You can find faults anywhere if you try hard enough. Ur judgement is fair in my opinion

[@dsesuk]

Cheers Andrew, thanks for persevering to the end!

[@dennisphoenix1]

A visual inspection certificate could be issued if the change of tenant is in a short period . Tenants quite often break sockets and lose screws from cooker outlet plates etc

[@markhawkes3536]

Another quality video, just think you are both great, honest real world approach excellent.

[@dsesuk]

Cheers Mark, I'm glad we were able to fool you into thinking we're not a couple o' pricks!

[@theCybershot123]

You said at 25.00 about damage to the main isolater switch plus the red cover not shut correctly.If there are no replacement parts ie Isolater does that mean you require a new DB. Did you forget to put it into your report as well .Great video very informative

[@Kernozenko]

Good idea with noting the water bond result on the circuit chart, I will be taking that to my next EICR, EIC. 🤙

[@TheEulerID]

32A rings may not be great, but 32A radials have there place. They are invaluable it utility rooms, kitchens and garage/workshops. It's much better than a couple of 16A or even 20A radials as you don't have to worry what is plugged in where. It's a different story in bedrooms, living rooms and so on. However, the 32A circuit has its place for sockets.

[@guffermeister]

Yes, periodic testing should be done, in the same way gas was mandated. Landlords do need to ensure that what they provide is safe. Gas safety doesn't retrospectivly want the latest highly efficient boiler or whatever installed. Its either safe or it isn't and you can recommend as standards and technology develop. Many installations will be like this for many more decades. Sparkies are still pulling rubber cables out of old buildings for goodness sake. I totally agree with all your commends and observations. RCD's don't cover every eventuality of "additional protection" but they do go a damned good way for a sensible price. What was the statistic? Introduce the compenant person scheme and the number of consumer unit fires went up so we now put them in a metal one to hide bad workmanship? And rings should be stopped. The only way you can test a ring is to break it. You then put it back together. But you can't fully test it - catch the insulation etc? Defeat of the purpose of the testing. If you need a 32Amp final, use 4mm. Sure its more of a ball ache to install....

[@steverpcb]

To add a RCD that the landlord will probably opt for gives 3 options - Does the CU manufacturer have one available to fit the board to replace the damaged switch ? ( quick and easy ) Add one in its own enclosure along side the board ( untidy ) Change the CU ( pita )

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

Following guidance note 7 is a good start and one report will be completely different from another tester. Everyone has a slightly different views on the wording.

[@dc-sd3gd]

A nice thing to find another man who dislikes rings. Absolute shambles, i subbied to a guy who installs a ring downstairs, a kitchen ring and an upstairs ring. I fit the board for him and he insisted on all rings being on a 32. I ran out of breakers and put the uostairs ring on a 10A to see if itd trip, 3 years later that breaker still stands.

[@dsesuk]

Crikey. The whole point of the ring configuration was to supply a whole house with a single high-current socket circuit to keep copper use down. Having two or more rings is a nonsense.

[@dc-sd3gd]

@@dsesukyep. 3x32A rings, 1x40A oven circuit and a 50A shower circuit, all on a 60A main fuse ive witnessed before. All fun and games...

[@shorty57red]

David Savery Electrical Service

[@julieannecharters6132]

really enjoy yer vids and the piss taking ,looking at the footage any mention of the supplementary bonding in the bathroom which was a pain in the arse at the time.

[@waithereivegonetogethelp3240]

34:00 a good thing to try first is simply to put the plug in and out 3 or 4 times, item that's enough to give you a decent connection without having to remove the front in my experience.

[@paultipton743]

When Nigel said are we under charging, I think he was hinting at a pay rise 🤣

[@dsesuk]

He gets three apples a week and I'm not about to change that anytime soon.

[@grrarg9319]

@@dsesuk Maybe you could jam a banana in there as well?

[@paultipton743]

@@grrarg9319 well if he keeps bending over🤣

[@muzikman2008]

Lol.. Nige is bored.. And underpaid, that's what we all gleaned from that video 🤣 this video is why I am not part of any recognised scheme. The rules and regs vary so much across them all. Gov. UK says one thing, IET say another, NICEIC say something else to be different to NAPIT, or whoever.. It's a mess! And who police's it anyway? I just stick to doing a safe quality job, non notifiable work, no rewires, no new CUs, keeps me trundling along. I agreed with everything you said Dave. I would not like to be doing rental properties either, as you say a tenant can come in after all your testing and change a light fitting, socket, etc break a RFC, expose live conductive parts on a light fitting, extend sockets incorrectly etc. Good rant and a explanation of the new nonsense going on. 👍

[@steverobinson8170]

@@muzikman2008 Had that happen to me on one of our rentals cut the frigging earth wires off when they swapped light fittings because they were in the way dooohh

[@FrontSideBus]

Great to see Nige back in action lol. Another great and informative video!

[@dsesuk]

Thanks again FSB!

[@chrishamilton4172]

Another brilliant informative video. Thanks David ,👍🏽

[@g.t.36]

Great video. Just a quick question. New to the game. Got a board change to do in a integral garage. The existing consumer unit is on a outside brick wall in the garage . Needs to be batoned off the wall and cables will have to be rear entry. So there will be knockouts on the back of the consumer unit. The consumer unit will be between 50mm to 75 mm off the wall. So with the knockouts out what is and how is the best way to fire rate it.

[@sloppyhead5739]

Thanks for the video, as an apprentice I found it hard understanding what you should do in this situation as people seemed to give more their opinion, but seeing the guidelines and especially the HSE comments gives some great support!

[@dsesuk]

There's also a regulation for it - 651.2 [note 2] on page 237, so next time someone says all installations must be to the latest standard, you can quote that one!

[@sloppyhead5739]

@@dsesuk Thanks alot David

[@robertwilliamson3934]

Another good watch can't believe I agree fully with your comments nice to see your grip of the English language in improving top video from a couple off fanny waxers lol

[@deniscotter525]

Yes but years ago fatalities were much much higher, RCDs make perfect sense , all additional protection should be considered