Laning as a Carry in Herald | Whose Fault Is It Anyways? #9

[@TheGlenn8]

Gotta love that classic herald move of "this hero is int so he must be a support?" dark seer hard support pick.

[@Delacrow_l_Chawngthu]

He can still work, iron shell and run at their offlane rinse and repeat. No one wanna trade with him at low level.

[@TheGlenn8]

@@Delacrow_l_Chawngthu And then you completely screw up the lane equilibrium.

[@Delacrow_l_Chawngthu]

@@TheGlenn8 If it's a hard lane letting the lane swing is good. Iron shell deals 600+ full damage at lvl 1, no one would sit inside their own creeps and tank the shell they will run or hit you back and you still achieve the desired effect either way ie getting him low and chase him away.

[@jettywango3939]

Its really inspiring to see all these people sending in their replays so they can improve.

[@peterjordansonthe2nd731]

Bro, that part where you zoomed in on the brainless AFK DS was insanely hilarious! It just 100% shows how rough games can be at super low MMR

[@DannTeBg]

I'm in Archon 4 and its the exact same

[@soupytho]

okay sometimes it takes a long time to shop

[@skittering]

yo that's my replay! thanks, great video, cracked me up and I learnt a lot

[@ZQuixotix]

I'm glad you liked it! Thanks for submitting it!

[@Siobio420]

I love the recurring bit of the Dark seer vacuuming in front of the tower.

[@EmersonCloud]

Zach this is GOLD! I do have these games too where it just feels impossible to get anything. Cool to see the mindset that can at least get some value out of the laning stage. Can you speak more on when to buy small items like wraith bands and falcon blade? I had in my head that I should get those when I'm having a really good game, luxury items to press the advantage or something, otherwise just get treads and start on my core items. But it seems like here wraith bands can help you get some easier farm that you couldn't if you rushed treads

[@Gringosaurus]

Dark seer lover here. Watching him not ion shell Bristol back was killing me if you want the lane to push just ion shell, a melee Carrie and it’ll push.

[@motchness]

Can you please do longer videos because I like watching them

[@ZQuixotix]

MVP! However, longer videos tend to perform a lot worse :( I'm trying to find the ideal balance though!

[@Joel2Million]

panicked when I saw spectre bc I just left a spectre game on your last video but thankfully I'm not herald

[@JasonRennie]

Dumb question: how do you get the net worth chart to show on the left? I've looked around a bit, but haven't figured it out...

[@ZQuixotix]

It's not a dumb question! If you are spectating a game, there is a drop down menu on that left hand side that you can pick different stats to see (such as networth). I believe the default hotkey is Y

[@JasonRennie]

@@ZQuixotix Oh, so you can't see it while playing? That would explain a lot :)

[@dueceduck3608]

that DS focus at 4ish min was hilarious

[@jameseden9380]

Man this series is great, thank you

[@Jebu911]

what a fun video and not that outdated either even tho the map is bigger

[@anakkucings]

in lower bracket, if you picked carry that depend too much on pos 5 babysits you and cant jungle effectively from low levels, its on you too man.

[@Taziod]

facts - same with pos 4. if you pick a pos 4 to win the lane and hope your team will carry you to victory after a good start, it's on you. just pick someone who scales and try not to lose too hard in lane.

[@TheGlenn8]

Dunno man. Specter is the classic Herald stomp carry because all you need is for the game to go late game and you'll eventually win.

[@anakkucings]

@@TheGlenn8 you need to pick carry that could go plan B, spec actually could go ring of regen early and make bfury if lane is hard(jugg now isnt benefit much from bfury but people still make it anyway) but people is to scared to get reported this days.sven has cleaves so he could jungle from lvl 3 with morbid mask, lycan you can use wolf to drag cut creeps and bring it to you safely and jungle while using 1 wolves as ward, if youre on dire, alchemist must be on your hero pool, he have like 3 spots of acid spray which can hit 2 camp at once not to mention constantly getting buff with radiance and acid spray the only 350+ total dmg aoe dot at level 1 if you calculate the armor reduction. the key is how to cheese the lane.

[@anakkucings]

@@Taziod what pos 4 did you play? ive having some success with omni,doom,and maiden 4. but recently i found the ultimate cheese hero at pos 4 that good in most matchup. so far im 9/1 with the hero really strong. i used to be ancient but calibrated to archon only now.

[@TheGlenn8]

@@anakkucings Hey I'm not herald and I don't play carry so I don't know the best Meta down there. Just saying that specter is this classic herald pick because all games go late anyways so the classic logic is picking a carry that's strong late.

[@del10artem]

This is what I've been saying to all my herald friends: don't rely on your teammates, no matter the role!!! If you're carry, don't expect your 1k support will give you tangos, ward the jungle and carry dust - DO IT YOURSELF! If you're support, don't expect your 1k carry will solo win the game for you - DO IT YOURSELF! Pick a scaling support and play greedy. The most important thing is MUTE EVERYONE and PLAY! Every time I coach my friends literally everyone is typing "report this/report that" instead of just playing the game.

[@knkaitlog]

yep playing greedy support works in low mmr BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE TO FIGHT ALL THE TIME AND NOONE FARMS THE LANE FULL OF GODDAMN CREEPS PUSHING IN!

[@marcusmeins1839]

There is a problem though . If you waste gold on wards and sentries because the support never buys any , you will not get your full items before the enemy heroes get them first therefore the enemy heroes who are well fed when you fall behind in items can destroy you easily .

[@devverma144]

I just use 'please'. Works most of the time. Also, please don't suggest supports to play greedy. Definitely not in the early game. There is a lot of free farm from mid game onwards as low mmr players aren't that efficient. Supports can farm then. A week carry in the early game just lead to chain feeding.

[@SuperGGnoRE]

⁠@@marcusmeins1839Players are so inefficient it doesn't matter if you use 100-200 gold to stay alive and secure farm. You lose way more by dying or getting zoned.

[@Md1982IT]

You are such a nice person, and a high quality dota 2 content creator ( and pro player ofc)

[@chumbogrosso5133]

I think I have a good one for this series: 1. Game ID: 7082367298 2. Ember Spirit 3. I'm having a good game, 4/0 having solo killed the enemy HC once already. At 19:25 I shove the mid wave and start pinging that Mirana is missing to warn that they must have smoked or used moonlight shadow so my team plays carefully. They spot mirana going up a cliff under our vision and immediately we have a good start to the upcoming fight. I know I'm the strongest hero in the game at this moment and I have a bottled DD rune so I decide to join. Before watching the replay I was very confused on how we managed to lose that fight, but apparently my shaman has no point in hex and decided to shackle the dead mirana and position where the enemy is probably coming from, he becomes the distribution point for a million maelstrom procs which deletes my muerta and chips pudge to a very low hp. I could've left a remnant at mid as a fail safe, but I really hoped that we would team wipe them at the start of the fight and if they backup I could just turn around and push mid some more. This fight makes me lose my gold lead in the game. Another fight we lost was at min 30, where mirana tries to solo initiate in jugger, who turns it around. I'm close so I decide to join, I see CM coming from the river near a haste rune so I decide to zone her off the fight since I have a mobility spell I can join way before she does. While this happens, Jugg suicides and I didn't notice it, as I look back and we get a free CM kill I thought the fight was good so I commit nobody says to back cause we lost jugg, so I stayed and disaster strikes again, this time at least I don't die, but the game goes from 4k to 7k lead when everybody respawns, Jugg is Poor, Muerta is a support at this point, and 1 mistake I made after this sealed the game for good.

[@peterjordansonthe2nd731]

Way too much information for a comment. I stopped reading before the halfway point

[@chumbogrosso5133]

@@peterjordansonthe2nd731 the text is not meant for you to read though

[@peterjordansonthe2nd731]

@Chumbo Grosso Yeah that's OK. I'm just telling you, nobody wants to read all that

[@chumbogrosso5133]

@@peterjordansonthe2nd731 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@9.5kmmr58]

If you can tell your pos 5 grief picked, immediately think of heroes that can jungle efficiently as early as possible (naga, sven etc).

[@samuelelliott8453]

Why do you recommend wraith bands here? BSJ said that those are more for trading in the lanes and they're not good if you're gonna go jungle (granted this was awhile ago but not much has changed since then). This could've been for that specific hero but he was saying that something like a chain mail is better for armor or band of elven skin/gloves of haste are better for attack spd/dmg and those are abt the same cost as wraith bands/bracers/nulls. Im not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to why you recommend the wraith bands for jungling.

[@ZQuixotix]

TBH, I would trust BSJ's advice for carry players more than my own since he has a lot of experience with it. My idea here is that since this is Herald, there will be a mix of laning and jungling. Weak and strong match ups are extremely reduced in this bracket from people not knowing how to play those match ups. So I think Wraith Bands provide some laning power and then help in the jungle as well. Skipping straight to power treads or blade mail might indeed be better

[@samuelelliott8453]

@@ZQuixotix ah okay cuz it does seem like it would be good to get those types of items but...also, would double treads be worse or better than going wraith bands xD

[@Six_slotted]

@@ZQuixotix yeah im not so much better than this guy floating around 2.7-3k ish and its perfectly possible to heavily beat a bristle in lane as spectre. hell ive got a +ve winrate on support slark in this bracket. everyone is so bad you can make your own meta if you just manage to squeeze some small bit of efficiency out of any particular aspect of any hero

[@Six_slotted]

to follow up on your my earlier comment too it applies to itemisation as well i reckon. in 2k trench tier where you get carry players losing lane slowly knowing theyre likely going to be forced into the jungle, but still building phase boots instead of treads, whether WB or gloves of haste is 5% more efficient for killing neutrals isnt really the most critical thing in comparison. like a beginner chef doesnt need himalayan pink rock salt and can perfectly use table salt while building their skills, if there is any logical connect at all between the specific gamestate and your items its probably better than average for your bracket already and you can improve elsewhere

[@Colopty]

Overall seems like this player is incredibly scared of taking any sort of damage, so the moment Bristle presses level 1 quill spray the first time to deal 25 damage (before reductions) he immediately backs away by a mile, way out of range to do basically anything (not even sure he stayed in exp range all the time), and stays there for 30 seconds. Makes him incredibly easy to zone, and ensures that he doesn't even get a last hit in return for tanking that quill spray or a couple of right clicks. So aside from the farming pattern, one thing this player should get used to doing is to commit to drawing creep aggro to pull the wave back or going for last hits even if they do take a bit of damage in the process, rather than chickening out the moment someone pokes them.

[@Twinsen764]

This is why you are in Herald

[@VengeanceSinX]

I hope you make an updated version for SEA server where you got Spectre + Anti-Mage both carry picks safe lane :-)

[@proswampert]

best series

[@mcdinkysgarage4514]

I'm on a 4 or 5 game winning streak as Muerta pos4 (once pos3) at low mmr. If you want some Muerta-specific replays I've got you covered.

[@p0t4-24]

this explains a lot 😮 thnx.

[@briannewman9210]

He was having a bit of existential dread.

[@io-rj6sk]

that darkseer tho :DDD btw any1 kno wat mmr zquitoxitx is?

[@DanKaschel]

Weird to say "plan to jungle" and also "buy wraith bands" which are a laning item

[@Rad21zzz]

Can you make archon guide too

[@Tman7855]

4:27 😂

[@ConjurusHex]

funny dark seer edits

[@jennymckenzie5304]

Oh I have a great match for this series. 7094106332 I'm Faceless Playing with my IRL mates, so this stack is all OVER the damn place in terms of rank. My 5 Lina decides that instead of listening to the every-other-player he's playing with who are all MUCH higher MMR than him, he's going to start tangos/ward straight into Arcane Boots straight into GLEIPNIR, with Maelstrom first. While this is happening AA is getting hard bullied mid by rotations on every rune, and I'm missing CS because apparently the phrase "please issue your attack command from outside the creep aggro radius" is too complicated, so lane ends up hard shoved under enemy offlane tower when we should have total control. From here, our 5 player moves into his next classic move: "why aren't we fighting?" End of the day, my last hitting is terrible, I'm not even close to where I really should be in terms of CS at 10 mins, the lane becomes basically impossible to exist in at about 5:30 when I have to expend loads of health and mana for a kill that isn't really nessecary. We could just bait them under tower if Lina was actually maxing his stun (like he had been told to). But we as a team fall behind on map control and net worth to such an extent that with my AA going midas to attempt a recovery, I feel I have to skip the current standard midas/mael build and opt for MOM instead. From there, things spiral hardcore. my farming is inefficient, all our cores are being hunted and shut down by their incredibly early game draft, people are getting passive-aggressive about my farming patterns and lack of money, we're down on save items cause Lina is rushing Gleipnir first item with the farming component as a pos 5 and is maxing her q, we take a TERRIBLE fight due to a miss-communication on Chrono useage (14:33, I said I was running with Chrono so Willow went in, suicided cause he didn't see I wasn't in range and had to use time walk to get DOWN the cliff, and we lose the kills), and we just get walked over. I feel that playing like this on Lina, handicapping my ability to CS in lane with massive over-aggression, and rushing carry items to effectively just end up as an underfarmed mid is what puts this game firmly in dangerous waters from minute 0, (or I guess 5:30, to be a little more accurate), the support (who builds like this on EVERY support hero btw, this is NOT an outlier), disagrees, and thinks that if his cores were "just better and more aggressive" (he has not elaborated on how we're meant to achieve this), we wouldn't be "lacking damage" and he wouldn't, quote, "need to go these items", (again, how one is expected to have damage with no farm as a position 1 is something of which I have not been enlightened). If I'm wrong, I'd love to know, I'd be VERY interested in how I managed to peak at almost five TIMES his current MMR with my knowledge so WOEFULLY out of sync with the game (admittedly, two years ago, I've not played ranked since, so I'm not saying I'm even approaching that level anymore). On a more serious note, I face this kind of issue a lot when I play with these guys, and I feel like I'm letting them down when they try their best to give me space. My farming has always been one of my strongest points, but I can't seem to find the money I need. Meaning either it's not possible, or I WAY misunderstand all aspects of fighting and ability management and I've been unknowingly compensating for that by just being able to brute force THROUGH my own bad positioning/targeting/etc with better farming than the other carry. So when games get hard like this and I don't have the kind of space I'm used to and know how to maximise, I'm effectively completely knee-capped. This particular game is hard, and limitations of the gamemode (they refuse to play anything but single draft, it's "more fun when people don't know what heroes they're going to get", I've tried to extoll the virtues of random draft, but alas...) mean our draft DOES suck, especially in the early mid game. But I feel like I could have done better. I also feel like my pos 5 made my life a lot bloody harder than he could and should have done. So I implore you, Quixotix. Who's fault IS it, anyway?

[@nikolaykolesnik7228]

yo man you recommend not to buy wand against bristleback, wtf? wraith band is important as well but stick and wand there is a CORE against heroes like bristle. I would agree on stick -> band -> wand, thats cool, but skipping stick at all is a ruin

[@Reciever80]

he didnt say that, he said stick to stick (heh) and then use gold elsewhere. u dont need the extra 7 charge save in the lane, that's for teamfights, use the gold for efficient stats

[@TheKilogram1000]

Okay tbh, trying to last hit with an Ion shell on you must be so hard.

[@cm3462]

I love your channel but you didn't account for Bristle pushing wave w quill spray. That tower would be gone in 90 sec. Would be interesting to hear how you plan around that, no kappa.

[@ZQuixotix]

I don't think that really changes anything for carries. If you can't play the lane because it's so bad, watching them farm in front of you won't really help you win the game. If games are bad, you have to sacrifice something to try to catch up and that's the tower in this case. Hopefully a support delays it maybe or tries to take another tower. But if the carry is just watching the enemy farm and you get to 10 minutes and they're super poor compared to all the other cores, I don't think that game is very good. I'd rather have a somewhat farmed core with no tower compared to a tower and poor core. Bonus, in this bracket, many people will be slow to push even in an empty lane

[@ZQuixotix]

@ewqiop Oohh thank you for sharing that! I actually never noticed you got charges from neutrals using spells

[@alexanderlee2261]

Match ID: 7102231477 Hero: Night Stalker Tier: Crusader/Archon Would appreciate some feedback on this game. This is a case where I feel I dominated the offlane but both mid and safe got destroyed. I went into the mid game with great farm and a couple of kills, and created some opportunities for my team. Eventually I overextend and lose my advantage. I guess I could have focused on taking bot tower earlier instead of joining fights, and maybe change up my item build for a blink. Was there anything I could do better this game? Or is it really a case of my teammates being too far behind?

[@awskeesher]

In my rank, I always see smurfs at least acient or divine looking at their playstyles but always kick their ass no matter what, Idc and I report them lose or not.

[@knkaitlog]

zero aggro pulling, dude can win lane easily just by aggroing

[@nathanwance2833]

ohhh yeah Herald bracket ..

[@poowshzera]

Match ID: 7085174420 Hero: Ursa Very difficult lane from my point of view, ursa+dazzle against np and tusk, my support 5 feed and blamed me for not being aggressive in lane, I asked him to leave the lane and apparently it made it easier, who is wrong in this sittuation?

[@suntzu6122]

Boys, if you play vs bristle, get the +2 armor item AND stick. Thank me later.