Lapping Arkansas Stones with SIC Powder

[@dfailsthemost]

Such a great point about setting up to work comfortably. Years ago, I cobbled together a set-up on a table to flatten a bunch of stones. Only when I sat down to start did I realize how awkward my arm would be positioned. Lesson learned.

[@Starman2440]

Had a slightly dished out Smith Washita 6 x 2" stone---I lapped it flat with a concrete blocks, water, & 100 grit silicon carbide (used to clean spark plugs)...it worked very well.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Sounds good!

[@matthewroszkowski4674]

thanks, Keith, making another run at arks, hoping a better surface will make them work better for my applications.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Best of luck on your journey. Hopefully you find your 'zone' with those bad boys...

[@PANTERALEO56]

The only content creator regarding all the topics of interest in this channel i can watch over and over and over again. In your Hard Ark video you mentioned you met a guy downtown who put you on regarding your sharpening endeavors and stone game. I'm not one to swing on the next man's nuts but with all due respect. To me Your that guy downtown. I appreciate you so fuckin much... Love this channel your insights views and find your knowledge and experience invaluable !!! Gangster 😎

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thank you for the kind words, much appreciated. Have a great day and a great shave too! Happy Honing!

[@Miroku-Tono]

Always going back to your vids. Dam good source of info. Greatly appreciated.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thank you for watching, commenting and the kind words!

[@dfailsthemost]

Amen to your thought about the size of the surface. SIC seems to disperse erratically on a big plate.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Can be a real pita!

[@PeriodWoodworker]

Nice instruction. I really enjoy the channel. I have used SiC form 30 years and it is wonderful. Nice to turn some young guys onto it. Thanks for sharing, Steve

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hey PW, love your channel! Thank you for watching and commenting!

[@jeffreyf.milarsky1968]

Thanks for the video Keith. Please more VLOGs. They are terrifically informative. Could you please do a honing video on Arkansas stones? Full tilt please.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thanks Jeffrey - I have lots of video ideas brewing.... showing off some Arks is a possibility for sure.

[@dillon4900]

Just a hello from Canada watch you often, can always use the help.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hello back from Brooklyn, always good to hear a hello from up north! Happy Honing!

[@richardbeaudoin7148]

Thanks Keith, great video . I’ve got a black ark to prep and this video was very timely.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hey Richard, thanks for watching and commenting! SIC is the way to go!

[@rockinshavinwithgonzo520]

Always good to see work in action and good suggestions. You’ve shared and helped my honing skills a ton. Thanks Keith

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome and thank you Bob! Happy Honing!

[@rockinshavinwithgonzo520]

Keith V. Johnson its Zen time most of the time. Kind of relaxing and pays dividends

[@dfailsthemost]

Thanks for showing this process. It's an excellent resource.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome, and thank you for watching and commenting!

[@hosseinordoubadian5439]

Great info. Thanks Keith--I always look forward to your videos and I am glad you are going into arks, the stones I started on with knives with grandpa and the boy scouts back in the early 70s. The straight razor bug has led me back to knife sharpening and I am able to apply your ideas and techniques to knives. Once I started paying attention, I discovered I had scores of dull knives around the house--not anymore.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Arks are actually what started me on sharpening looooong ago. Glad to hear you're getting thing sharp! Thank you for watching and commenting!

[@Theshahpaul]

So I heard a while back that the old Pike Washita mine hadn't actually dried up. But that it just wasn't profitable to keep mining them so the mining stopped. Anyway, great video. Thanks Keith.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

At least one of Norton's quarries that produced Washita still has good stone. About 10 years ago they did a short run of Washita but that was the last we heard of it. I don't believe that short washita run wasn't profitable, and I think another short run could be very profitable. But I also think making modern abrasives is even more profitable - and that's why the quarry stays closed.

[@eliefeinstein6182]

Hey, Keith. Great video. I’m just getting into arks so this is immensely helpful. I got a black ark from Dan’s. According to my straightedge, it’s already dead flat. I suppose that means I probably don’t need to flatten it and just need to decide what level of polish/burnish I want to give it?

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Well, if it's flat then it's flat...so.....

[@eliefeinstein6182]

@@KeithVJohnson1Ha. Let me rephrase. Even if it’s flat, don’t I still “need” to burnish or polish it to give it the desired finish? If so, would it make sense to just skip the SIC powder and go straight to a progression of wet and dry? Maybe I’m overthinking this…

[@KeithVJohnson1]

My line of thought is that a rough surface isn't flat. So if it is flat it's flat. If it is rough and needs smoothing, it's not flat yet. For finish lapping Arks I usually use 600x w/d.

[@eliefeinstein6182]

@@KeithVJohnson1 Got it. Makes sense. Thanks, Keith. Appreciate all of the educational content.

[@RealTalkThomas]

This is the 17th video I'm watching I'm of yours, all full-length. I purchased a Dan's Black Ark yesterday. I haven't watched this video yet but wanted to comment before, as I really want to know if there are other ways to flatten the Ark hone. I have a 240 DMT. Is that too aggressive on the Arkansas or will it just take forever and is not recommended?

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thank you for watching so many of my vids! Choosing to use a diamond plate to flatten Arks depends on how much material you have to take off. For very minor flattening, a 220x DMT will work. However, you will greatly reduce the plate's cutting capability. Or, if you wind up needing to do a lot of work, you may wind up killing the plate completely. I wiped out a 220 DMT trying to flatten a surgical black Ark.

[@RealTalkThomas]

@@KeithVJohnson1 How do I know how much needs to be taken off to become flat? I'm fairly new to honing and use a pencil on my Naniwa 12k, use the DMT for a few seconds until all pencil marks are gone and I know it's flat. If I need to, where do you purchase SIC? There are some selling on Amazon but if you have a site that's reliable/accurate with their labeling I'd appreciate it. Great videos, Keith. Very informative to a new guy starting out. You cut through the BS that fills this hobby.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Removing pencil marks does not tell you the stone is flat. Those graphite lines come off way before the stone achieves flatness. The only way to ensure flatness, is to check with a quality straightedge - sides and middle long ways, sides and middle short ways, and diagonally both ways.

[@pedrotrust]

So nice to see some British stones. Not long ago we used to find them on Ebay.uk for £30/40 , but in recent years prices went crazy. I've owned a few extremely hard ones, similar to translucent ark. Carpenters love them ! Great video as always.. ;)

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thanks for watching and commenting Pedro - yeah, prices for hones have been going up up up.... I guess it's because more and more people are going for straights and the majority of them want to be self-sufficient.

[@flipsfan78]

I have been looking at expanding my lapping game and you have been leading me towards SIC powders for awhile. Great video! You continue to be a touchstone for all my sharpening and honing endeavors (woodworking tool edges, mostly). And apropos Washitas... I have a very small vintage/antique collection of what (a few) people keep telling me are Washitas... expect they are all 'sandy' orange to reddish in color. ? From what I see online most common are the 'lily' white varity. I wouldn't know if I lucked into the 'Rosey Red' types, but I haven't been able to find much definitively. In your opinion, would measuring specific gravity help in identification? Cheers Kieth, Adamo

[@KeithVJohnson1]

A lot of Washita are reddish actually. Rosy Red was just a short run stone from one quarry - it wasn't all that special to be honest. There are fewer RR's than #1 Nortons, so they are 'rarer' and more 'collectible'. My take on all things 'Ark Related' is to just use the stones and be happy with their capabilities - learn them by using them and not to worry about 'specs'.

[@johnr-w4444]

Great timing for a sic vid! I started working on some sort of ark, super hard. Only down a few mm, with 4 sheets of 240 w/d.... SIC def seems like the way to go. 👍

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Definitely is the way to go. I don't want to tell you how many sheets of 220x I used to flatten my first Ark.

[@moardie]

Thank you so much for this video! I bought your SIC set, I will get to work soon.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome and thank you Max!

[@peteswright]

Hi keith. If the SIC breaks down in use how do you know when you've ended up with the grit rating you're after? is it when the SIC is crunchy or at the end of the break down stage and will the broken down powder be giving a finer grit finish? Thanks. ATB.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Forget ‘grit’ - those numbers are just a guide, they are not absolute. Just lap until you get the surface you want, judge by feel and visual inspection. As the SIC breaks down it gets finer and feels smoother.

[@peteswright]

@@KeithVJohnson1 Thanks. So if you're after around say a 240 grit surface, use around 240 powder for a short ish time lapping and don't take it down to where the powder goes smooth in sound because that might be giving you a 400ish finish yes. ATB.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

@@peteswright Forget grit numbers, they're imaginary starting points only, esp with stuff like SIC. 220x SIC, for example, is not actually 220x. There really is no such thing as a 240x surface. But whatever you're going for - maybe try 220x SIC, see how it performs for you, judge and adjust from there. You may find 100x to bring better results when it's near exhaustion than 220x does when it's just starting out. Or not - it depends on what you're after and without trying many things many ways, you won't know which method is 'best'. Relying on numbers is limiting, and will usually lead to false conclusions.

[@peteswright]

@@KeithVJohnson1 Cant thank you enough keith.

[@Master...deBater]

Thanks for the Washita info. I was given two beautiful vintage stones by my father-in-law. A 6x2x1 lily white and a 7.75x1.75x1 rosy red Washita...both in mint condition. I have their boxes but they're in need of serious restoration. I also have a regular black and a trans black ark...but you're right there's something special about a good Washita. By the way...your trans black/white Ark looks like one helluva performer. Congrats on finding that gem!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Washita are very special indeed. Thank you for watching and commenting!

[@lukedupont8564]

Hey, you just solved a mystery for me! My Washita, which had an incomplete label, is the same dimensions as your rosy red, and it has splotches of rusty red coloration sprinkled throughout. For the longest time, I thought it must be a No. 1 Washita or something, but I just googled "Rosy Red" and they look exactly like what I have. Thanks! In any case, those are some really special gifts. You have a pretty awesome father in law!

[@Master...deBater]

@@lukedupont8564 Sorry so late ...I just saw your reply. I'm glad you found the answer...I have several vintage stones that I'm still trying to identify. It can be frustrating...but the longer you search...the more satisfying it is when you finally get the answer! And yes my father in law was an awesome guy and good friend...we miss him terribly! Thanks for the reply.

[@markb3605]

Great video!!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Cool, thank you for watching and commenting! Happy Honing!

[@markb3605]

I’ve been using straights for only a couple years now but I’m balls deep lol. So far I’ve got a shapton kuromaku progression with IRL finishers and a shapton glass 16k. Trying to get better!

[@markb3605]

I’ve visited your store multiple times but I gotta walk before I run lol

[@remlok2655]

Thanks Keith, very informative

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome and thank you for watching and commenting!

[@lukedupont8564]

Thanks! I too have destroyed so many diamond plates lapping Arkansas Stones and Japanese Chisels and Plane Irons. I've finally decided to get some SIC powder and do it right. One problem is where to get a flat surface, though. Is it okay to actually just use two Arks and put the SiC powder between them, or will the harder Ark wear down the softer one too quickly? For that matter, does the base need to be harder than the stone itself? Here in Japan, there are Kanaban (I think is the right term) which are just flat metal plates on which you put Sic powder and do these jobs. Perhaps I can just use one of those? I threw out my worn out diamond plates unfortunately..

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Ket a Kanaban of the right size and put a layer of SIC sandpaper on it, put the loose SIC on top of that and you'll be fine. Just change the paper when/if it wears out.

[@lukedupont8564]

@@KeithVJohnson1 Welp, I got a kanaban from the hardware store and it was... almost, but not entirely flat. It's a work in progress that I will come back to, but I now have no doubt that it will stay flat and only get flatter as I'm rubbing a stone against it. In the meantime, I tried flattening my surgical black ark with the same stone that I was dressing my Kanaban -- a cheapo, non oil filled combination India stone looking knock off from the 100 yen shop. The coarse side is very friable and effective at lapping both the Ark and the Kanaban. And, I tried using the Ark with a rough surface straight from that stone, as you mentioned, and got stellar results! I had the best shave yet. I'm never going back to a smooth glassy finish on my surgical black arks ever again. It was simply too slow cutting to fully remove the marks from the previous stone before (on a razor), though less of a problem for wood working tools which one can apply pressure on.

[@dfailsthemost]

Do you think a cast iron surface would be ok for using SIC to lap Arks? I have some limitation in my set up. My diamond plate isn't dead and I'm concerned that the SIC will fall into the valleys between where the diamond protrudes from the surface.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Not sure, but I'd guess cast iron might get chewed up by SIC.

[@dfailsthemost]

@@KeithVJohnson1 Yeah, I had the same concern. Thank you

[@nickfanzo]

Thanks Keith! Always great videos.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome, and thank you for participating on this channel and the FB group too!

[@brianpayne3468]

Hi Keith, Thanks for the helpful video coming from you, which makes a big difference coming from a razor user. Can you do a progression using Arkansas Stones sharpening your razor? I want to see if Using only Arkansas stones, you can achieve a surgical edge that can pass a Hanging Hair Test on your razor. I think Arkansas stones are much more affordable than the Japanese whetstones. .

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Yes - it can be done.

[@jeronimomacias481]

I have to try an arc one of these days

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Def worth checking out.

[@Sproutt]

have you ever had a problem with sediment in your plumbing. in my ceramics and art classes they used sediment filters so i try not to have to much go down the drain. but any issues from say the SIC power or your synthetic japanese water stones?

[@KeithVJohnson1]

No.

[@TheNameoftheWorld]

Hello, thanks for the videos.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome and thank you for watching and commenting!

[@wimkamp09]

Hi Keith, very informative as useall thanks. Question I only have a Atoma 400 which still works good so I can not use that as a surface what do you suggest to use that is easily available to get as a surface? Thanks #goteamtomo

[@KeithVJohnson1]

The Atoma plate is aluminum, might be too soft to use for SIC anyway. I would suggest going to a tile store and getting a piece of granite or quartz countertop. Sometimes you can get them to cut a piece to size for you. Or a tile maybe. I like the platform to fit into the sink to keep the mess contained and so I can wash it off easily too.

[@dfailsthemost]

I remember rubbing my fingertips raw just from glancing over the grit now and then while dressing a surgical black ark. Next day, i almost dropped my cup of coffee when the heat hit my fingertips

[@joeynuggetz]

Keith, have you ever measured how much you're removing from that steel lapping plate? I used glass on my last go and it feels like its dished out a bit and I wonder if that's a problem or if I'm being too picky. I have lots of SIC powder but haven't found a solution for what to use as a lapping surface.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Just about anything will dish. Glass is MOHS 5.5, or so - SIC is 7 I think. I have dished one side of my steel plate. now I use the other side. When it dies, I'll get another DMT. Some guys put down a layer of w/d paper to use as a sacrificial surface under the SIC - you might want to try that.

[@davefournier7135]

That was very helpful. Thank you.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thank you for watching, and sharing - very cool to hear you got something out of it, thanks for that too!

[@oldschoolprepper2273]

love the Ark video's !!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Gary, thank you for watching! And Commenting too!

[@fishmanfish1525]

Thank you for this video. The content has helped me a great deal.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome, and thank you for watching and commenting! Happy Honing!

[@gregorytinkler5385]

Someday I'll get that surgical black and then this will come in really handy

[@KeithVJohnson1]

For sure, those super hard arks are a bear to lap.

[@augustwest3575]

cool video

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thank you August! Happy Honing!

[@bigoldgrizzly]

If you want granite slabs try your local memorial/gravestone/ornamental mason. I have had many pieces of beautiful granite from my local guy all for free including long 6 foot x 6 x 2 inches and a 3' x 2' 6" x 4" rose granite slab flat to within a thou that I use as a 'low grade surface plate. That one, he made a big error in the inscription - an expensive mistake for him - but a big bonus for me I have a set of 16" sq granite that I use to flatten and true up stones and have the luxury of a different slab for each grade of SIC. I also have a big granite slab patio. ;

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Thanks, yeah, I've bought a lot of granite, marble, and quartzite from such places and tile shops too. Home Depot sells blemished granite side splashes pretty cheaply too. That sort of material has never been all that flat for me though. Even honed slate samples have been way way way 'out of flat'. Stone quarries will sometimes send samples for low $$ when asked. A 6x18x2" class A reference plate is about $70 online and if I split it with someone the 9x6" 1/2 piece only costs me $35. None of it goes well in the kitchen sink though, too bulky and heavy and the corners are problematic. SIC eats the stone real fast so anything that starts flat gets not-flat pretty quick.

[@bigoldgrizzly]

@@KeithVJohnson1 The big gravestone blanks he gets are all milled and pre-polished in huge mill machines in India and are pretty accurate. I lot of what I have got is redundant gravestones replaced at some point when further family members die. Took a while to build up the trust, as for obvious reasons, I have to totally obliterate inscriptions with diamond bits power tools and good old hammer & punch before putting it to any sort of use. Luckily, I have plenty of room on the smallholding where I live. I find keeping the plates flat is not too big a problem as I use other pieces to hone them down and do keep a close eye on wear. On a big plate it is easier to make sure you use all of the surface keeping wear pretty even. I have mine on a small bench outside and can walk round and work from all four sides. For final finish I normally go back to wet and dry of appropriate grade stuck down on a fresh plate. Getting a bit old and arthritic to do much these days, though I do find it really satisfying although, finding stones worth all the effort is getting harder though as I can't get about too well. As you say,working in a sink is not ideal, but it gets the job done.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

I would say your situation is an exception, typically stuff like that isn't milled to such tolerances because it's not necessary for the application usually. Here, the norm is 18" cuts that are with a 1/4- 1/2": dip in the middle.

[@bigoldgrizzly]

@@KeithVJohnson1 I count myself very lucky then. Cleaned and with a lick of polish, these show no more distortion than a decent mirror. I have a triple A inspection grade straight edge and rarely find more than a couple of thou daylight across side to side. Most of the stones are 4" thick so pretty stable..... they are however bl00dy heavy for an old git like me ;

[@vaughnwesterby5162]

Great video Thanks! 👍🏻🇺🇸

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You’re welcome and thank you for watching and commenting!

[@jfg1104]

Damn Keith, where have you been cumpari? I miss you weekly videos bro. I know you got a wedding coming up or are just recently married but damn, we need the real deal that you provide!!! Not this bullshit on forums!!!!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hey SOI - thank you for posting. I have been posting regularly - I release a video every 3-4 weeks. Maybe your notifications bell isn't set to alert you to when I post a new video? I think you have to click on the bell symbol for that to work. My last video went live on March 9th I think. I hear you on the 'forum bullshit' situation - I think it's worse now than it's ever been. .

[@jaysolomon34]

Don’t kill the Penguin’s

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Lol - They’re pretty durable!