Lars Madsen Interview - psychologist who works with criminals and psychopaths

[@CallMeNevermore]

There’s an episode by SBS Insight that featured James Fallon. Lars was one of the audience members, so it feels like a small world seeing a video of you interviewing him! I‘m glad you got him on here.

[@lozzyloulou1]

The fact that these guys attend therapy in the first place, then stick at it and do the hard work is kudos to them 🤜🏻

[@beachlife4346]

Yeah well...they have a huge motivation to put in the "hardwork." Which "hardwork" to them is about working the staff and the system to get what they want. Fooling people is what they do and it helps them to gain additional privages or possibly freedom to ultimately get out if they choose to pretend to change or cooperate. They know how to work people and the system...but they would never do that? Lol That's the kind of magical and wishful thinking they love to exploit.

[@PattisKarriereKarten]

@@beachlife4346 exactly! And H.G. Tudor would tell you that he is in therapy and only got more dangerous because he learned so much about himself. Recently saw an old documentary about Wayne Williams. He talked about nice stuff all the time and had pictures of pleasant things on his prison wall and you thought: He seems alright and harmless! Yet he scores 40 out of 40 on the Hare List and killed his brother on purpose by staging an accident when he was ten. And he talks about that in a perfectly calm tone as if he talked about breakfast. It was absolutely CHILLING. I wouldn’t call them monsters because that is an assessment that comes from empathic people, but certainly they have to be excluded from society for the safety of everyone else. But since it raises whole new questions what to do with them, people sugarcoat it and want to „heal them with therapy“ because that’s the empathic thing to do.

[@JDdr86]

​​@@beachlife4346So it's hopeless then?

[@beachlife4346]

There are many people that are broken beyond fixing. Thinking they can be has become a money making venture. After over 20 years around the broken this is very clear to me.

[@darrylkassle361]

You know why that is don’t you- they learn from the therapist through the interaction and fishing techniques how to better manipulate and improve their ‘mask’. They see it as an opportunity to see how effective they still can be against an adversary a forensic psychologist no less who knows who and what they are. YOU CANT CURE A PSYCHOPATH . They can be modified if rewarded in terms of what they want.

[@vivainvestparaguayvivainve2321]

Interesting, but I have an emotional need as a medical doctor and to make my internal mess complite, I was a German where 'Schema Therapy' was born. Therapy means healing. I think it sets wrong exspectations. More so as it is used more and more in interaction with pasychopaths. I would call it a treatment. Or at least think it that way. I am driven by the idea of high resonsability to protect society and not to declare healing as a result of grandious therapeutic work. What are the numbers of healt (you would maybe say no more that dangerous inmates), who had reduced their sentence based on your estimation? What are the statistics of crimes in this groupe after jail? What are the numbers of crimes who served the whole sentence? What are the numbers of new crimes of released inmates who didn't engeged in treatment? Do you have an opinion what individuals have a better social prognosis 1.or 2. psychopaths? To make my question clear. Not who are better treatable or more pleasant to work with. In behaviour outcome. Saludos cordiales desde otro lado del mundo Sud América from down under to down under

[@user-fm5fn4bw9f]

Psychopathy is a whole nother level. I literally saw the haughty mode in devalue overnight in him. One day fine, the next i was thinking somethings happened but i dont know what. The mask drop at the end. He looked 5yrs old seriously. It gives you a whole new world view. Dr jekyll and mr hyde movie...i was running let me tell you! You are just not expecting what you see. He was living in the moment. They are award winning grammy actors. Would love to be able to talk with you guys...this was 4 years ago. I looked into that mans eyes many times. Let me tell you he cannot fall in love. He knew he told me what he was.please do not minimalise this as it ruined my life. I do feel for them though. Not being able to connect properly to people..

[@Jenny-nz8fb]

Definitely your world view changes when you realise how these people tick. They are intra-species predators.

[@user-fm5fn4bw9f]

A psychopath would tear this lady to shreds. She wouldn't even see it coming. They leave u in a mess on the floor hypothetically and u have to rebuild best way you can. I can see who would be a choice as a target now. She should not wish to know one of these people. The damage is major and no going back to the old naive you...

[@darrylkassle361]

They have no empathy and see people as objects. Psychopaths like who they are don’t feel sorry for them believe me I wish I were one. I find a lot of emotions useless and I am not a psychopath. They are immune from depression however they do get bored easily hence the need for stimulation. Your guy is most probably a narcissist. Psychopaths are more strategic and in control. Sounds like classic narcissism.

[@JP-gj6qm]

They totally don't feel bad that they can not connect or have real emotions. I don't feel sorry for them at all, I feel sorry for all the people who connected with them.

[@runito75]

Create prisons where people dont need to be on constant survival mode. Stupid prison system.

[@jennywager6228]

What about the ones who are not in prison, the coping mechanisms are dangerous on a level its scary!

[@pdquestions7673]

As a person who's struggled with NPD and antisocial traits, I'm very concerned about how to reach the more difficult patients. Right now, I find it interesting how an overactive amygdala can sort of "take over" the brain and narrrow-down our executive panorama. But I also wonder whether there's another dimension to this disability, whereby the parts of the brain that allow a space for executive processing may be depressed. So it's not a normal global depression, but maybe a kind of "sector depression" of certain key parts of the brain. Instead of saying people are "missing" aspects of mental functioning, it might be better to say these aspects are depressed. From that viewpoint, maybe research could focus on awakening joy and euthymic states in areas of the brain that are currently "deadened." I'm even curious if body work could help with this, since I think a lot of deadened affect may extend to the nervous system of the body. Just some ideas that occur to me, after spending years (myself) frustrated with the cluster B experience & the feeling that psychology itself may have room to consider completely unprecedented viewpoints in how we conceptualize of the neurological framework that presents these troubling and disabling disorders. I say disabling, because when the executive panorama is sufficiently compromised, we're talking one of the parts of the mind that is most important to even being able to approach a state of behavioral continence.

[@JD-xd4sy]

That's interesting. Another take is that parts might not be exactly "missing" but that brains are wired differently, so the cluster B individual might feel fear and/or some kind of empathy, but for totally different situations than what is normal.

[@pdquestions7673]

@@JD-xd4sy definitely worth considering

[@stregalilith]

What a brilliant explanation from the inside! Often somatic involvement can generate brain chemistry that can make rose structural changes using both physical and spiritual exercises and experiences such as tai chi, moving to music and Hatha yoga on the physical side and something as simple as making daily gratitude lists on the spiritual side. Therapy can teach you to be patient with yourself as you grow towards health. It’s ok if your initial motivation is self interest. That is basic human motivation. Wanting to feel better is fine -when we feel better we learn more and when we know better we do better. Good luck to you.

[@pdquestions7673]

@@stregalilith -- thanks.. Even if my basic theories are wrong, I still think re-conditioning and development is a crucial aspect of recovery. The more adapted we are to the natural frustrations and stresses of life, and the more resilient we can become, obviously the better. So I see the path as closer to training and conditioning, as opposed to just having insights and conversations.

[@stregalilith]

@@pdquestions7673 Agree. The neurochemistry that builds and shapes brain structure and processes can reshape the structure and initiate new processes but it will take time and patience. After all it took both time and trauma to create the initial machine.

[@SuttonART]

Thank you for promoting that I’m not a monster.

[@darrylkassle361]

You are with your mask off. Keep it on for the normals.

[@windalfalatar333]

20:26 I think that clients in a normal clinic would normally go into the aggressive-bullying mode with their clinician because they see the futility of that mode in achieving their goals in that context, and also that the stakes are generally not as high in a civil society context as they are in a custodial one.

[@BodyLanguageAnalysisInterrogat]

One of the BEST videos I've seen! It was informative and inspiring 👏

[@drruthannharpur]

Thank you - super lovely to get this kind of feedback! I'll let Lars know too!

[@beachlife4346]

An "evil" person or a "monster" is someone who has done and proven they are capable of more of those evil, monsterous and unthinkable acts. That doesnt mean they do that 24/7 but the dangers are very real and they have proven its been done by them and more likely than not of them doing it again. Theraphy like a lion trainer may appear to train or break lions of their past behaviors but really have not. At any time they can take on the upper hand if you are not controlling them and everything around them at all times. Trying to paint the people who murder and do very abusive behaviors as anything but not... is the very same rational the abused use when they are in denial of the harm in front of them yet they stay in it...Its the wounded past empathy trap that the abusers uses to keep their prey under their spell. So what, they are messed up because of how they were treated they are still what they have become...that's how they munipulate their prey to think of them as tamed when they are like wild animals instead. Until you have been literally touched by an evil person in your personal life you or others around you first hand you will never get that ....unless you stay in denial of that reality... You can study it all you want and even be around them when they are in prison. They are different when they need something from you and they are getting it than when they are not... They play games and the more free they are to be themselves and no longer need to play by the rules within the system.... its a whole different deal...If they don't feel they need to follow rules they use them against the rest of us. Speaking from knowing a family annialator personally and being married to a man who tried to kill them.... Yes in both cases they were the guys everyone loved and admired including me. The worst monsters don't come to you as monsters they come to you as loved ones and respected people to gain relationships from you and bring you one you thought you have always dreamed of but its all an illusion...That's what evil does... it comes in disquise and this evil does exist. I am no longer fooled...but feel the worst for those who don't see it as what it is, evil coming or people are too arrogant or disillusioned to believe it is possible that they will change. 😂😂😂😂😂 Those are the ones they will use, abuse, exploit and destroy if they can. They are fooling you or you are in a Narcissisic state of an ego that thinks you are the very one who can save them. They don't want to change, what they do is how they operate at the core and its too late for them but not for us to learn from, leave and avoid then at all cost!!!

[@beachlife4346]

@@DA-ee1xi once you see it and feel it, you can never not...

[@LizEarthAngel3]

I hear you I was married to one for 20 years if he was doing a program like that he would learn the environment to play the victim to manipulate the Pyschologist etc, until you live with one you will never ever understand the pure sadistic evil they are, and every breathe they take they are using it to gain whatever it is they need from whomever they can get it from, if ever they pretend to be nice or try to fix their bad behaviour is a lie just like every other thing out of their mouth

[@magiegainey5036]

Totally agree. Once you see evil in someone's eyes, you need to run. I had an Aunt that was a psych nurse and worked with, what they called back 20 years ago, the criminally insane in a mental hospital. She thought it was fascinating, but Never thought they should ever get out. She said they could never change because of chemical disorders in the brain. She could spot them easily out in everyday life. The dead or wild eyes was her first indication. Now, again, these were criminally insane.

[@Roswell33]

​@@beachlife4346yep my father is one. Predator in every sense of the word. Mother still doesn't see it. She blanks out information that's too difficult for her (generally what I've survived). Then, I'm fairly sure she's Narcissistic herself a different kind, maybe more BPD leaning. Wish I could do denial tbh, it seems much easier than reality. Always trust your gut is what I'm trying to do currently after 25 years of being conditioned out of it. The part that also sucks is that I'm more of an empath who's trying to unlearn codependence!

[@beachlife4346]

@@Roswell33 I agree totally. They truely live within a totally different mindset and seem to be a different species once you get it and see it in totality of they are and what they do. It's bone chilling.

[@dottyp137]

I had those revenge fantasies. I had them so much I started to feel worried. But I sat myself down and imagined the person was actually physically present and realised I didn’t have that in me. I haven’t had them since. This was really interesting. Thank you for sharing ☺️

[@drruthannharpur]

Thank you for commenting and so pleased to hear you found it interesting. You might find this video specifically about revenge fantasies kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5O7gpmLhd-VfbM

[@Peace-d6r]

Despite my bpd panic this is very interesting glad it was done

[@Peace-d6r]

Really appreciated the schema explanations

[@Jem-gs3fo]

This was a fantastic interview! Thanks to you both ❣

[@drruthannharpur]

Thank you Jem ❤️

[@Peace-d6r]

Im really confused i havw bpd but i don't manipulate and dontt take advantage. If anything ive turned down support anf money from friends etc when i was homeless as i felt bad accepting it. It triggered some insecurity as he immediately brought up bpd in type 2 psychopathy and didn't say much more 🥺🥺🥺🥺

[@Roswell33]

Honestly I have a bad gut feeling about him if that makes you feel better

[@JDdr86]

​@@Roswell33How would it? Do you have some magical divination ability or what?

[@Roswell33]

@@JDdr86 yeah I do :) xx

[@Zmiana_Pogody]

I also have bpd (mixed with avoidant personality disorder and schizoid traits). As you, I do not harm other ppl. (But I do harm myself.) My sister also has bpd and she unconsciously does harm & manipulate others. Her family is affected by her dysfunctions and it's truly tough to be around her. IMO the answer to your confusion is: Not all bpds are the same, simple as that. We may share other features with other bpd people, for example: - fear of abandonment - or big mood swings. When it comes to manipulation, most people think about harming others. But one may manipulate by being very helpful for example (yes!). (I'm very helpful, everybody may count on me, including strangers!) Or - by being very good in sex for example, very caring, concentrated on partner's pleasure, satisfaction and good mood. It's not "harming", it's the opposite, but it still can be a manipulation (even unconscious), when it comes e.g. from the fear of abandonment.

[@kristinmeyer489]

I once knew someone whose mother worked with these sadistic stalker types. She had them follow me to the library and break into my private dwelling, before overtly terrorizing me and deliberately destroying my life thru predatory criminal human rights-defiling gang stalking.

[@darrylkassle361]

Seems like she was one of them

[@jamesdeluca6657]

I love learning about all this kind of things 😊

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

audio is terrible.

[@dogtrainingmexico]

Very insightful. I suspect that my sister is a type 1 psychopath....

[@dogtrainingmexico]

My sister is more the cunning, manipulative, charming mode. She is good at spotting vulnerable people, lies frequently and can be very cruel with no remorse. She also fakes emotions but seems to have no genuine emotions. This is what I have observed, knowing her for 55 years...

[@dogtrainingmexico]

But she doesn't break the law, at least to the extent that she would be caught...

[@pdquestions7673]

@@dogtrainingmexico -- my grandmother was like that... totally law abiding and under control, but still with that aura of seeing everyone's weakness and offering no real interpersonal affection... Although, she constantly offered superficial cheer and charm, and, honestly, I came to enjoy being around her. But I never felt she had any deep feelings for anyone, not even her children. She did treasure my grandfather, and she never remarried after his death, but I can't say her feelings for him were that broad... it was more like she treasured him... very strange. But, in the end, I wish psychology could explore more angles for really understanding this condition. Maybe I'm just being hopeful, but I do wonder whether these "missing" aspects of the factor 1's are, maybe, like depressions in the functioning of key parts of the brain. Not comparable to ordinary depression, but still deserving of being called a kind of depression. Once we see it that way, we can then approach, for the first time, the problem of awakening these deadened areas. Maybe I'm just dreaming, but I don't think we should limit the possibility of unprecedented new approaches to what seem to be old problems.

[@darrylkassle361]

How do you know she is faking it. When you see her next say I think we are the same but I have a better mask. When we are around each other I think we can safely take our masks off they are such a pain in the ass. She how she reacts. You will know the behaviour that confirms it

[@Peace-d6r]

If i havw bpd does that mean im a psychopath im worrying xxx

[@hearme4581]

Me too I have bpd and my mother has it, I definitely can see her doing something crazy when I was a child

[@Roswell33]

No guys it's ok :) Psychopaths feel less BPD feel more x

[@Peace-d6r]

@@Roswell33 thank u so much

[@apex11177]

A borderline becomes a secondary psychopath never a primary psychopath. You still have empathy but you have it temporarily switched off when you have been triggered to the point of losing your borderline defenses when feeling abandoned. Your empathy is still intact, but it is sidelined while you're in survival mode. The psychopath doesn't have a sense of self but the borderline does, albeit fragmented. Therapy will help a borderline individuate, but never a pyschopath.

[@Peace-d6r]

@@apex11177 that makes a lot of sense although I wouldn’t tar every borderline as this but the process makes total sense and how it could happen for some borderlines many thanks x

[@SuttonART]

I would love if you could define my mode. I look like a Narc, but I know my limits, like any person would.

[@i.ehrenfest349]

Aware narc

[@SuttonART]

@@i.ehrenfest349 I know you are but what am I? (I hope the tone gets through)

[@i.ehrenfest349]

Well, actually, I often think I’m an aware narc. But I have friends who, like me, had an abusive childhood and wonder if they’re narcs, themselves. It apparently is a fairly common thing. People with cPTSD can have narcissistic behaviours. After all I’ve read about narcissism, I’m still not sure.

[@SuttonART]

@@i.ehrenfest349 I don’t think that NPD is a thing. All the personality disorders are cPTSD from early childhood trauma. I explain my thoughts on it in this video where a famous “unaware narc” interviewed me. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJq3Yqt7pKigrassi=sx_Ud0CkhwuMagz- One thing is for sure, all these unaware masters of the universe folks are aware of the empty hole in their soul.

[@darrylkassle361]

It seems common because it’s measured on a spectrum. This almost everybody has narcissistic traits. It’s having most of them and to a high degree tat manifests as clinical NPD. The easiest way to think of it (all spectrum disorders in fact) is to think of it as if you are a medically diagnosed alcoholic. Basically you have occasional drinkers,social drinkers,party only drinkers,binge drinkers and regular drinkers . This everybody is a drinker of sorts however to be an alcoholic you must drink frequently be dependent on it and have the destructive problems that come with it. So as you can see it’s about traits ,degree and intensity.Everybody drinks in different ways yet to be an alcoholic you are at one end of the spectrum just as with being a diagnosed narcissist. Myself I have narcissistic traits only a few and don’t have the key trait being no empath . I am empathetic so would never fit the criteria as having at least no empathy is a key trait that must exist before you can be officially diagnosed. Most people would be like me with either a fewer or more traits.

[@analuisabastossousa1]

The sense of revenge, that fantasy you talk, is about getting some justice... at least in our minds! It's not an idea of acting upon it, but rather a "curse" on them, a movie being played where divine justice happens! Because the human justice doesn't work at all... it's very easy for someone who has not been through continuous terror and manipulation, to feel hope about them. Feel free to date them or make friendships with them... but I don't see that from you both, but you expect others to do so? Funny!

[@ANpreventschildabuse]

Revenge is justified in some circumstances. If a person "exits" their mother harshly because their mother was abusive, why do you call that evil? And if you don't like psychopaths then stop making them, assuming you're a natalist, or have children.

[@analuisabastossousa1]

@@ANpreventschildabuse Didn't understand your comment regarding mine. We must be speaking different contexts. And I don't have children...

[@ZFabia2010]

So normal peaple go through everyday life every single day having empathy and sympathy? No Im just making the point that These prisoners do need to just not hurt other peaple period I personally dont care how empathetic a person is , ESPECIALLY if they are for everyone else. And not to the peaple closest to them .

[@Cleo2345]

Yay!

[@isobelle.London]

You can’t do anything for a psychopath so why would they go to therapy?

[@cLuStErBMiLkShAkE]

Cognitive therapy, Schema therapy, and transference therapy is said to be helpful. If someone was able to control their impulses, anger, and projections, that would be worth going to therapy for.

[@Jenny-nz8fb]

They go to therapy to hone their manipulation skills not to be a better person.

[@beachlife4346]

The promise of more freedoms. They also like the challenge of fooling others. Its like a super power they like to use to practice on others. When they succeed it makes them feel better about themselves. They look down on those they have fooled and then feel superior and better for it.

[@beachlife4346]

@@cLuStErBMiLkShAkE They don't see a pay off doing those things, only appearing to be. They are preditors who are looking for opportunities to exploit.

[@cLuStErBMiLkShAkE]

@@beachlife4346 I’m not speaking of the incarnated trying to get paroled.

[@Peace-d6r]

Was quite clear he has a set opinion that bpd or whatever all havw same modes. But in different levels but then literally every human has modes to different levels. Tarring every borderline with the same brush Clearly triggered here arnt i lol i shall stop commenting now x😊

[@fbmadsen8236]

Thanks for the message/comment. We all have modes - psychopathic individuals, though, tend to have all the overcompensating modes and often to a much stronger degree than others (so think of a volume dial going from 1 to 10). Generally, in my experience, folks with BPD have very big vulnerable modes that can be accessed in therapy - in psychopathic clients these modes are much less apparent or accessible in therapy.

[@Peace-d6r]

@@fbmadsen8236 sorry if it's rude i was feeling very reactive and insecure being bpd myself oh the irony. I just worried as there's so much stigma because bpd was mentioned a lot as being your type 2 psychopaths what that would do to people already judging bpd people. I've never had a problem with lying or pretending to he different people which some people do with it. Anyway that makes a lot of sense what you just said thank you xx

[@Peace-d6r]

​@@fbmadsen8236Hi Lars im wondering how someoem on low income goes about getting mentalization based therapy or schema by someone like yourself. Currently struggling but wondered if you knew any avenues