Golfer's Elbow From Climbing - Solutions, Causes and Assessment

[@chazott]

I'll share my experience here as it may help others: I first got golfers elbow from increased bouldering intensity over a 1-month period where I was focused on V10 projects. I tried everything I could rehab the right elbow - stretching to increase mobility range, shoulder work, bicep work, eccentric forearm/bicep excercises, isometrics, 3 months rest, rolfing, icing, PT etc. It's hard to say what helped most, but I had very noticeable differences immediately with rolfing - but it's expensive. If you do that try to get some tips for myofascial release that you can do yourself at home. I think the mobility work and PT improved my body mechanics in general which facilitated healing. I adapted my climbing technique to direct more load toward the core muscles and less on the elbow which helped a lot. In this way, roof climbing is much easier than face climbing since you can hang from straight arms and work the core. I also found that rest didn't help at all for this injury since chronic tendon injuries do not heal without loading. Heavy loads are key. After 1 year I recovered my right arm. The clincher was a trip to a sport climbing area with long enduro pitches which I up-climbed and down-climbed every time all the way up to my on-sight grade, even down-cleaning routes on lead. I think the down-climbing helped because of the eccentric loading which helped to balance me out. I did deep massage on the forearm and stretching every climbing day in the evening. If I did not do this I would have pain the next day and would not be able to climb. The final thing that helped (maybe the most) was to wrap medical tape around my arm at the elbow. The way I do this is go right over the bony point where the elbow pain is and make the tape sorta loose when the arm is straight. This allows blood flow to be unrestricted most of the time. Then when the elbow bends and the tendon gets that compressive loading the tape gets really tight and supports the tendon. This helped me tremendously and is better than any gadget I could find on the market. After a few weeks I didn't need the tape anymore, and I was able to project hard routes once again. Relief! The bad part is that I increased my training significantly because I was so psyched - and I injured my left elbow creating a similar golfer's elbow on the left side while training some 1-arm pull-ups about 2 weeks after my right elbow had recovered. I took the same approach to rehab. However, for whatever reason that side has taken FOREVER to heal. I'm now 2.5 years into recovery and I think I'm finally getting through it, but wow. Once again the tape has been very helpful, as has down-climbing. The forearm eccentrics may have helped at first but now they don't seem to do anything. The thing that has helped me with the left side in the end is progressive loading which I do through bouldering. I've been bouldering easy grades a lot, up and down-climbing, up to the point of slight pain / discomfort in my elbow. I think it is helpful to get to the point of some pain. I try not to push through the pain too much though, and make sure to rest 2 days after until the pain has subsided. I found that I set myself back by 2 months of progress when I climbed hard back to back days and created too much pain. The better approach is to fully recover between sessions and then push it again. I took this approach up to v6, then weeks later v7, then weeks later v8, then weeks later v9, etc. V10 is my project grade and I'm now back to climbing at that level. I should also mention that I took a 6 month rest and it did nothing to help me. When I began climbing again the pain was the same as before. You have to climb through the pain in a progressive way, and supplement that with good rehab that targets the specific causes in your body - often shoulder issues and climbing technique issues but also mobility issues. I should also say that my right elbow has had no issues since the initial recovery. I just wanted to mention that in case you are 6 months into rehab and loosing hope... There is definitely hope to recover and make that recovery permanent, but it takes dedication and incredible patience. Hope this helps somebody.

[@jonnes__4657]

Thank you for sharing your experience, that helps and gives an idea what to do. I have a similar experience, that resting doesn't help. Maybe it is the chronical memory in the brain if a pain lasts too long. Now I use a BRACCO arm strap and that mostly avoids pain during loading. Stretching also helps. I can load my elbow, but with loading palm up I have some pain. Normal easier climbing on holds makes no pain. .

[@sigmastodon]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. It shows your level of patience! Your description is really helpful.

[@brunodm1573]

Have you ever tried dry needling?

[@chazott]

@@brunodm1573 no I have not. Assuming you're talking about acupuncture, I think it could help facilitate healing at a certain stage. I asked a climbing specific PT about it, and he recommended that it could be useful but only after larger issues such as technique, flexibility, and proper biomechanics were addressed. It would not be the first stage or only treatment. There's another technique which uses a needle to rapidly poke a bunch of holes in the tendon to stimulate healing and recovery by creating an acute injury at the tendon. I asked an orthopedic doctor about that and he said it would likely work, but it has a 6 month healing time from the procedure itself, similar to surgery. He only recommended it after other options were tried. I also learned about a treatment that was developed in Spain where they do targeted electro therapy using a needle where they stimulate the tendon with an electrical impulse. I've heard anecdotally that it works quite well for climbers elbow (medial tendinopathy) and the recovery time is days, not months. It may take multiple sessions to fully heal. However, I never had a chance to try that procedure. If I could have made it happen when I was in Spain I would have definitely tried it. Here's an article that talks about what I understand to be the Spanish procedure: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4283658/

I've had similar success (after nothing else helped) with flossing which seems to be what you are doing with the medical band. Check out e.g. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYuqkGyFlNJ0na8 for a demonstration. I continue to regularly floss my elbows and it also helps with general forearm strength endurance, at least in my case.

[@dancashion6542]

Please do a video on lateral elbow tendinopathy and provide more details about appropriate progressive loading. Great content here. Thanks!

[@timkillington9649]

While this was interesting it was also very frustrating. It took a long time not to explain anything. What is a tendonopathy? or more specifically what is this tendonopathy? We didn't get an explanation. What causes the pain? What needs to be put right? There was a lot of talk about loading but no explanation or demonstration how. A (possibly) useful stretch was mentioned, but no demonstration. I think if you are going to do pieces like this you need to remember how detail obsessed climbers tend to be, especially when it comes to health and well being and most especially when it comes to injury and rehab. Please do a follow up (heavy on the detail).

[@maxe.1598]

Got the exact same feeling. Especially how should I be doing the loading of the tendons?

[@bertrandr]

Exactly my thoughts as well. Having watched dozens of simialr videos, 27 mins of this gave me no information :( (thank god I already knew about the stretch ahah). However, James mentioned that the bending of the elbow movement might be a pattern to rehab as well, which is seldom mentioned but very interesting I think. I would love a follow up video where all these points are actually explained in detail (I hope this video was not just a plug to go to their practices, that would be disappointing).

[@tero-mikael2538]

Yes, it would be great to see the actual moves and workouts; eccentric / concentric and isometric. I ve had this problem on my right elbow for 5 years now and would be grateful for this! :)

[@jcarola00]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZqwppinnqimjKs This takes a longer but I think He explains a lot of what you can actually do. I didnt see the whole video, i followed the timesstamps of one of the first comments: 1) Take ownership of the injury (8:10) 2) Be strong. Strengthen (condition) body, esp upstream arm/shoulder. (10:36) 3) Develop awareness. Note & listen to how your body feels. Adjust volume/intensity or session type accordingly. (13:27) 4) Don't stop moving. Maintain steady level of fitness/activity without typical 'Western' prolonged sedentary tenancies (17:25) 4.5) Difficulty of identifying causal factor. Sometimes change of routine/scenery can help. Trial and error methodology. (21:32) 5) Rest professionally. Top quality sleep, nutrition, reduce life stresses (22:56) 6)Respect your circadian rhythm. Increase quality and duration of sleep. (23:16) 7) Keep training. Possibly do more! (25:36) 8) Do heavy resistance training all the time! Incl typical eccentric wrist curls with heavy load (some pain might be required) and high frequency (daily!) and possibly more modern evidence of isometrics. (28:21) 9) If its not working, keep searching and try again however its tricky to decide timescale for each protocol. Lots of the data is weak/uncertain, such a nuanced issue. (34:24) 10) Tendons are made from what goes into your mouth. Nutrition. Collagen synthesis from Glycine, Proline and Vit C (comments on the recent hype train for this) but he relies on mostly eats whole foods (39:05)

[@jaydee4988]

Personally I think the quadratus lodborum is overlooked, the lats connect to the arm at the hummers and over laps this muscle. Thus meaning you cant fully extend through the lats into the shoulders and arm. the internal and external rotation with the bicep is flexed is going to cause so .uch tension on the muscles

[@hansmoleman7280]

12:26: Isolated Wrist Curls & Top loaded Wrist Rotation 14:51 Isometric, Eccentric or Concentric exercises? Answer: Progressive Loading 16:22 Progressive Loading Example

[@wp869]

Ty you're a boss

[@cole1870]

Hero

[@BrisLS1]

Thanks for trying to save some people some time. These guys talked about almost everything else you could fit into 30 minutes, besides "how did I get this pain" and "how do I get rid of it". In their defense, there are 1000 videos on YT about this, all different, and they all might be useless. Could be what the doctor says "that hurts, stop doing that".

[@MegaChristabella]

Love the physio content, a series on common climbing ailments would be fantastic. Can never know to much 🙌

[@felixhermes1223]

Thanks Lattice Training! This is quality content! Would it be possible to talk with James about shoulder problems and possible solutions in future videos? Im particularly interested in the climber‘s back (shoulder alignment).

[@LatticeTraining]

Felix Hermes we’ll have a chat to him!

[@drewetpa]

This is a really good expert video on the subject. There is SO MUCH RUBBISH on KZbin about golfer's elbow and it's great to see an expert with up to date knowledge on the injury and appropriate rehab.

[@danobable]

Hi Lattice, thanks for the video. Well done on your run Tom. I just wanted to add something I've not heard people talk about and get your thoughts on it. I had golfers for a long time, saw a super climbing physio, did all the exercises, but it didn't get better. After a long time I realised that I was sleeping with the bad arm on full lock, hand under my head pretty much all night every night. When I trained myself to sleep with a straight arm and not stress the tendon things quickly got better, I continued with the exercises and luckily it hasn't returned. The physio said this makes sense and I wonder how many other climbers are sleeping in the same way, unknowingly stressing the tendon all night. This may be complete mumbo jumbo so it would be interesting to hear your thoughts....

[@MrTheHegemon]

Definitely agree with this! I used to always sleep on my side and learning how to sleep on my back allowed my injury to heal overnight (haha).

[@morenonesense]

This is a great topic! it would be nice to have James go even more in-depth into how to develop a rehab protocol, what kinds of exercises he thinks are helpful, how many sets/reps per day/week, etc. Thanks!

[@gravyblue]

Props for vid/sound caliber. Nice to see technical quality as well as content quality.

[@davidringo4672]

One year of frustration experiencing this issue with one elbow and then the other. Finally, direct forearm extensor work -- very light reverse curls with slow eccentric -- fixed the problem for me. Ever since, I have done direct forearm work in a regular gym. I also use a light pair of dumbbells to warm-up my arms and shoulders prior to indoor climbing. So far so good!

[@CarlisleFox]

Thank you very much for this video, when I started climbing last year I suffered immensely with elbow pain and I had to do this sort of... balancing act of still training but not pushing it too far. My climbing friends who got me into the sport did not suffer the same issue so I had no idea what or why I was having this problem. Over time I found holding a heavy weight in a standing bicep curl position and then slowly lowering it seemed to ease the pain and rehabilitate it to a point where it was no longer an issue but I had no idea why. Coming back to climbing after lockdown I have felt phantoms of that same issue, it is really reassuring and valuable to me to know this isn't just a me thing and that ecentric exercise is something that would naturally be considered to try and address it. Thanks a lot Lattice

[@TheRosieBj]

Thanks so much, this was great. We are fortunate to have specialists who are passionate about constantly learning the new and improved research. That being said, I officially have to make rehab changes! As much as I would like to fly to the UK for personal training, I would love if you all had suggestions or resources for other Physios and climbing rehab specialists in the USA? I live in the Midwest and finding professionals educated in climbing injuries is dang rare.

[@fussballermaxi]

Very informative video, can you make one on the tennis elbow as well?

[@LatticeTraining]

rohr zange we may do!

[@trufavarela]

@@LatticeTraining Please do!!!

[@leejones9827]

@@LatticeTraining I assume "we may do" is code for "we will, but we want to keep the suspense". If not then, yes, please do! :)

[@chrisstein6710]

I would also be really interested in the difference between Tennis and golfer elbow and how to treat it :)

[@telkmx]

@@LatticeTraining would be really nice if you did it. It seems to be common in climbers too now. Even more so in Boulderers

[@FeatherzMcG]

I've watched a lot of Golfer's Elbow content, and this is the first time I've heard anyone acknowledge flexing the elbow as a function of those tendons. I believe my current condition could be caused by either a one-off climbing session, or by my aerial circus practice, which recruits a lot of the same things (Much more so than the more classic causes of Golfer's elbow.) It's refreshing to hear golfer's elbow examined through a climbing lens Most of the pain to do purely with wrist flexion has now calmed down for me, and now the majority of pain comes when flexing the arm from a near-straight position, or a combination of that with wrist flexion (E.g. a full-range dumbell curl). If anyone has any advice/progressions for addressing that specific area of difficulty, I'd love to hear about it.

[@dirtmike6258]

i've suffered from both tennis and golfer's elbow on both of my elbows ... took almost 6 months off from lifting weights because of it ... still was having pain in my elbows .. started to do stretching exercises, massaging, and icing ... my elbows feel so much better and started lightly lifting again ... and now almost back to my normal routines and i continue to ice, stretch, and massage after lifting weights

[@CeeT-wg3hz]

I'm going through this now, been off the gym for about 2 months

[@blubberditor]

Really enjoyed that video! More details regarding that topic would be really appreciated!!

[@domi7583]

It’s just right. I've been struggling with it for a long time

[@chazott]

I still come back to this video since elbow tendinopathy is my biggest weakness in climbing. I wish it was about an hour longer, more in depth, and included specific rehab guides for different stages of the injury. Hope you guys will dive in again!

[@MotoMatthew]

I got golfers elbow within my first 3 weeks of climbing haha. Bought a beast maker and trained on that twice a day along with climbing every other day. Complete and utter recipe for disaster! Luckily I must’ve caught it somewhat early and it went away within 10 days or so of complete rest. Safe to say I took it extremely easily when I returned!

[@Galaka100]

I loved this article because finally somebody explained the difference between tendinopathy and tendinitis. However, there were many mentions of the need to do progressive strengthening of the tendon and not a single mention of any exercises that would do that. In addition, the basic exercises that everybody suggests which involve eccentric loading with weight were said to not be that useful by the speaker. Just an amazing omission from an otherwise very interesting video.

[@andy-moss]

I'd appreciate learning more about repetitive stress injuries, prevention, recognizing warning signs, home care, who to see for treatment, etc. Gotta say a bit bummed that his definition of tendinopathy was "when a tendon becomes tendinopathic." didn't clear much up for me. I've also heard the term tendinosis. Is that the same as tendinopathy? But really enjoyed this content, I've been desperately googling how to heal my achy arms, and its nice to get advice from a reliable source.

[@hank-9241]

I'm no expert but tendinopathy is just a more general term. 'Pathia' is latin for sickness. Disorders with the suffix '-itis' refer to inflammation while '-osis' refers to an increased buildup of something. In the case of Tendinosis I believe it refers to an increase in certain collagen fibers.

[@GregFeeneyPoker]

I've heard it explained as a degeneration of the tendon. I think the crucial distinction is that it's not an inflammation so things used to treat inflammation are not relevant like it was once thought.

[@joelbroersmahealthperforma1233]

Hey there, like James I'm a Physio and a climber so I might be able to explain. Tendinopathy: a tendon provoking pain for whatever reason. This is more of a generalized term. Tendinitis: a tendon where there's an active inflammation present. This means all signs of inflammation: redness, heat, swelling, pain, and decreased function. Technically tendinitis could be considered tendinopathy but tendinopathy isn't necessarily tendinitis. "ITIS" = inflammation. Tendinosis: is a chronic version of tendinitis wherein the tendon tissue has adapted to chronic inflammation. If you suffer from this you might experience chronic pain and weakness. Treatment for a tendinosis is different, takes longer, and is often more painful than for tendinitis. Because you need to force the body to create healthy well-aligned tendon tissue again. Your physio can differ tendinitis from tendinosis based on the time you've had your complaints, how they've progressed, and how you've treated them or not. An ultrasound exam could also help to make a certain diagnosis. Hope this helps!

[@rikardtvedby3206]

This video came out just days after I got my first climbers elbow and I had no idea what it was. I was wondering why it started hurting and you gave me the answer. Perfect timing and thanks alot. Cheers!!

[@NickPierpoint]

Well... that's the best video I've seen on golfer's elbow by a long way. Thanks very much.

[@jeremyhay5032]

Guys, that was an excellent video. Thank you. What I took from this was the importance of progressive loading. I have been self-rehabilitating my own medial epicondyle tendinopathy with progressive loading-particularly the supination and pronation exercises. It seems like I am on the right track. Thanks, again!

[@jimmyflipper8093]

Yes, some very useful content here. Seems quite a complex subject, so some insight from a trained professional much appreciated. ☺️

[@cillijed4291]

Great video I have actually suffered with this for a while

[@nbka8rs]

Trips me out that you guys don't have more subs, content is always on point! More home training board videos and more stuff like this please!!

[@satorian_indeed]

Interesting video, but in terms of generalized advice for medial elbow tendinopathy: What would be the top three or five exercises James would recommend, with what kind of starting weight and what kind of progression?

[@LatticeTraining]

Michael Markefka you’d need to talk to James about that. Always specific advice needs to be individualised 🤓

[@satorian_indeed]

@@LatticeTraining He had some general comments on exercises or approaches he's not very fond of or he considered outdated, so I thought there might be something he could actually recommend in general terms. I understand it'd be best to talk to him personally, but I'm probably not the only one living in a different country. It also seemed like not all professionals in the field seem to be as up to date as he is, so his opinion would be interesting as opposed to someone else who might be local but not as well informed. Looking forward to more content on recovery and body care for climbers!

[@HAL-dm1eh]

This is like the 50th video I've watched and as a strength trainer I feel no one has touched on the possible solution for me except this gentleman. I got this probably doing low bar squats with tons of weight weighing down on my shoulders all the way down to my fingers. Chin ups then irritated it furiously. When I say chin ups I mean pull downs but with pronation, to get strong enough to do actual chin ups. I got to almost body weight when this hit. Wrist curls and massage were not going to fix that. I don't do low bar squats anymore, only high bar, so that's one problem down. The chin ups (again, pull downs) I started extremely light and only progressively overload with reps and then weight and very conservatively. So I might do 85 lbs for 3 sets of 8 reps. I only increase 1 rep every week, until I reach 12 reps, which I then increase the weight 5 lbs (would go smaller but that's all they have). So far I'm ok with this, I just wish I could get expert advice as a weight lifter. Anyway, thanks for the help!

[@BryceU]

Thanks for this! I really appreciate you covering specific injuries and the info provided. Dave MacLeod had a great video on this same subject that helped me through my climber's elbow recovery as well. Cheers.

[@WML0000]

Great stuff. James and the guys at SCC are ace. Helped me out loads.

[@junst1226]

Thank you for sharing!! Another common climber inconvenience is finger numbness due to compressed medianus nerve? In this context, how do you best prevent and treat this trouble, by stretching forearm flexors or by using small foam roller or ball? May you give some comments. Thanks.

[@DragonFighter92]

I also wanted to ask if anyone has experienced numbness and tingling in the little finger and ring finger after some time with the ulnaris problem

[@zaum99]

Never had Golfer's Elbow but this was fascinating all the same.

[@shtdisturbance]

I have had major issues with tennis elbow and stretching has been 100% the savior. I spent almost 2 years trying to figure out how I could train and climb again with rehab exercise to finally discover that i just needed to stretch my forearm, bicept, elbow and wrists every morning and night.

[@louisvseele]

Thank you for informative video. It helped me to understand the problem.

[@sharminbaer]

Don't want to make a commercial, but i struggled getting rid off the pain even after months of rehab with isometrics, progessive overload etc... I still always had a slight pain when trying hard. What finally made the difference in like 2-3 weeks, was using an armaid. U can probably get the same results with triggerpoint activation just by blackroll etc., but i tried and never could like find the exact spot i needed to and apply enough pressure to it then. So.... i was sceptical at first, cause its really expensive. But if nothing else works, try it out- its awesome!

[@die_hertz]

Just in time for this video, thanks for awesome content guys :) Slopers cause me golfer's elbow, getting back into climbing shape after lockdown triggered this problem again, will try progressively loading my forearms and elbows

[@verbalwound5874]

I dislocated my elbow and I have a similar condition, this video helps a lot.

[@mihalitos]

I want to share my experience with golfers elbow as well. So first of all it very complex injury and requires a lot of exercise from different muscles groups. My first and I think most important advice is: find a good physio therapist and let him asses what is wrong with you, and what muscles you need to exercise to gain more power. Please, don't rely just only on youtube videos. Me personally I have to work out not just only elbow but also back, shoulder and chest muscles to overcome this pain. I took me almost 3 months to start feeling comfortable with my elbow again but it still requires lot of exercise and stretching. I still can't climb the level as I was was used to before but it's getting better. You just need to keep going and it will definitely get better

[@rampel1]

This video is great! Thanks to James and Tom for such an awesome discussion. Also please make a video for the mentioned stretch, I've seen it in Tom's blog and have tried it, but it would be great to see some subtleties and comments.

[@LatticeTraining]

rampel1 yup we can do that for sure... we’ll put it on the filming schedule

[@fredpilk7759]

Amazing video. So happy to have found this content! Do we have a video for that stretching on the belly?! :)

[@adamborg1]

Thanks. This is the quality content I come for

[@hartmutulmer755]

Kinesio Taping the gulfers elbow gave me a lot oft support for climbing and training sessions alike. I felt it reduced the pain, supported the loading and made me more aware of too much strain applied to the elbow. I wasn’t sure if it was a thing - it would have been nice to hear your opinion on it!

[@bastianf1526]

This is very usefull. Thanks for sharing it. Please keep up with other climbing related issued. Shoulder Problems, Brachialis, Knees, Fingers, etc

[@bambinelas]

Such good content, once again. Very appreciated

[@LatticeTraining]

bambinelas no worries!! We’ll keep at it!!

[@lbeckons304]

Interesting stuff but I'm don't feel like there was any solution in the video. It seems like the solution is preventative.

[@emac4d]

Thanks for all that useful information, could you talk about the wirst too?

[@mixolt23]

Massaging my elbow at the point of pain was helping me alot, found another physio video on this...

[@alexaverbuch1]

I would love to see a video about elbow pain that's caused by nerve compression, rather than tendon or muscle damage. How do tell one from the other? Is it always clear cut, or can nerve-related pain sometimes present like tendon pain? How can one correct technique/posture to prevent and/or rehab it? What type of rehab exercises should we (not) do? At what point is rehab no longer sufficient, and what can be done then? E.g., surgery?

[@_sl3600]

> can nerve-related pain sometimes present like tendon pain? I'm not a doctor, your mileage may vary, but - yes. The GP diagnosed tendonitis in both my elbows, and it ended up being really stubborn even after physio work. It would also flare up in my wrist and down to some of my finger joints even without any load (for months), which is what eventually tipped off another physio that it was some kind of light nerve compression issue. An ultrasound of my right elbow and wrist confirmed that there was no visible damage there. Shoulder opening work helped in my case, as well as progressively loading these eccentric curls. Anyway, be sure to check with your physio! They can assess whether you have thoracic outlet syndrome, which can require surgery in the most acute cases.

[@alexaverbuch1]

thanks for sharing, ​@sl3600. in your case, why were eccentric curls included as part of the rehab?

[@_sl3600]

@@alexaverbuch1 my physio is not a climbing specialist and didn't have specific homework to suggest, so I looked around. Couldn't get much out of (reverse)tyler twists, saw Dave McLeod advocating the eccentrics and tried it out with the smaller kettlebells at the gym. It 1-didn't hurt more after a set 2-seemed to help over time, so I stuck with them :)

[@mimi_climbingcalm]

Great video nicely done ! Very helpful thanks guys keep em coming.

[@jibzouth]

Thank you for making this! It would be really interesting if you could make a similar video about common shoulder injuries. Such as shoulder impigement, rotatorcuff tears etc 👍🏻

[@hugomorenorock]

Such an excellent video with great content. Is it possible to make another video where it shows the progression from the moment of the injury to the way back in the game? Thank you very much for all this remarkable work!

[@BzAdt]

Most important thing to do about golfer's elbow is, of course, to not get it. How? One easy way to avoid it: always take the time to carefully warm up, whether that's for climbing, for strength training, for doing pull ups, for hang boarding. And warm up extra for bouldering. Seems obvious but so many people are terrible about warming up--it's not fun, it takes a while, and most of the time you skip it it doesn't matter. Until it does. So if you're in your street clothes out wherever, and you feel like showing your buds how easy it is to pull yourself up to some random ledge, maybe think twice.

[@augustovaldesjr.6683]

Thanks heaps! More power to your channel guys!

[@trevorwiltz8068]

More like this! Great video Any advice for turf toe as a result of climbing? had a foot pop on a small hold and hyper-extended my big toe. worried about loading it on small feet going forward.

[@rustyolgun]

Thank you 🙏🏼

[@mawa8062]

massaging with a theragun helped me a lot

[@buoyanProjects]

this is brilliant, my fave talk on this so far, mostly because it totally aligns with my own experience and opinions (bit of cognitive bias there i guess haha) but stretching and eccentrics never really helped, sometimes i even realized were making things worse. However hangboarding and progressive controlled loading and strengthening other muscles in the chain solved problems I had for over a year in very short amount of time, both golfers and tennis elbow.

[@robindbrooke]

Thanks great content and timely for me, also Tom's more recent stretch video which I'm starting today in the van

[@timkilian7140]

I just stretched my elbow like he said he wouldn't recommend it, and it helped immediately. Don't know, but I've got the feeling I should do those stretches more.

[@tstrandv123]

What about the pain in the elbow on the other side? Could you make a video about that issue?

[@davidheywood4082]

I've had tennis elbow for years from climbing. Can't get rid of it and i've been stuck at v3ish ever since. Even having 3 months off wasn't enough to recover. Would love a video on that :D

[@DominikNal]

Whenever I get any sort of pain in any sport I do. I always try to really think about myself biomechanically even though I'm no expert. It's very fascinating for me to the point i'll possibly pursue a career in the topic. Just so happens I was getting pain yesterday, close to the elbow coming from my tricep side. So thanks for the helpful video :)

[@Route_2_V11]

I thought the more psychological aspect of how climbers view rehab and also training was really interessting and i can definitely say that im also biased towards wanting this feeling of 'it has really done something' or feeling really worn out at the end of training to be satisfied. Good insights anyway, thanks guys!

[@simonthomas2024]

Excellent video thanks. Would like to see one on tennis elbow and also on your stretching routine please.

[@niels.online]

Really really want to give a boost to quasi-isometrics-essentially miniature, very low ROM reps around a single point of hold; usually 50-100 reps with an elastic band or pulley system. I find in terms of creating adaptive benefit (and briefly analgesia) nothing’s better. I learned about this form of rehab in arm wrestling circles as it’s quite popular there and found it’s indeed very helpful for tendonopathy generically

[@SoldikCZ]

Quality content ! I'd love to see finger injuries video in this same format.

[@akeene228]

Great information! I agree with many of the comments below. Can you please give examples of progressive loading exercises? Isometric exercise for Climbers Elbow?

[@jonnes__4657]

🐲 Yes, I'm a climber and have the golfer problem. 😢 The pain is right at the visible bone. I use a strap during training and climbing. It helps against pain, but it stays. I have to avoid pullups with the palm showing to me! .

[@luketufts6827]

Excited for this episode! Checked my sub box at just the right time :)

[@Stratneck]

Hi there !! Great ample explanation of golfers elbow. I’m a Kittesurfer, and this is a comun issue. Specially when jumping… The motion mirrors the climbing movement 😳 !!! Lots of my Kiter friends do suffer from this!!! What work for me, “Arnica inyección” brought the inflation down, and now I stretch from shoulders down and tórax. Is getting Better 👍. Need to start strengthening. Any advice How ?….

[@mpcodes5821]

Would love to know more about Cubital Tunnel Syndrome as compared to Golfers Elbow. I hope you read this!!!

[@climbingsnufkin]

I would like to know more about common wrist issues and ways to prevent them from developing. Awesome video, however it would have been nice to explain tendinopathy more in depth concerning the breakdown of collagen fibers :) also using simple diagrams with views from inside the body would have helped as well. Keep up the good work =)

[@RobertSmith-cl2jt]

Really great video, love this kind of content

[@Shortuglybeta]

“Progressive loading” concentric exercises is how i *got* my climber’s elbow- specifically weighted pull-ups adding 85-95% body weight and one arm pull-ups (concentrics). Why/how would doing concentric exercises targeting similar muscles/tendons then improve the climber’s elbow?

[@LatticeTraining]

The key thing is that, if the progressive loading led to the climbers elbow, the progression was too fast. Leading to non-functional overreaching. We want the progressive loading to occur at a rate at which the tissues recover and adapt to increase capacity/tolerance to climbing and training. Everyone has different recovery rates so you'll need to keep track of what was too much for you in the past. If you are injured then in the first instance the loading needs to drop. Complete cessation of training rarely helps so then we need to gradually increase training again but at lower loads than you were previously doing.

[@Shortuglybeta]

@@LatticeTraining thanks for the response! Theoretically, could progressively loading pull-ups even be therapeutic? Currently just a regular pull-up causes pain, but when I take off weight w bands I have nearly no pain. My main rehab recently has been eccentric wrist curls and hammer pronation, which seems to have helped considerably, and I am considering progressing to very low weights of the main exercise that I am currently limited in (pull-ups, albeit w bands, and slowly taking away the bands then adding weight again)

[@cillijed4291]

I have actually used the lying on the stomach stretch I think it helps quite a lot also releases pain

[@bartolomeonew]

How this stretching look like? Any link?

[@bartolomeonew]

@James Dazhong Cook thanks, but I am still a bit confused about the "lotus" thing; I have found this guy though: tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/ does it resembles this?

[@virgill6881]

Great video as usual! I suspect I developed golfers elbow after switching my gym climibng routine from endurance-lead climbing to powerful limit-bouldering and also changed my HB routine from high volume low intensity to small volume high intensity. I'm pretty sure this change in intensity is the cause for my current pain but Im not sure what should I do now: get back to my previous routine or continue the current one and just add the rehab exercises and stretches. Currently the pain is not really intense and it kind of fades away after a couple of days of rest, but I really want to address this right because I heard so many scarry stories about this issue.

[@jonathanschmidt1668]

Great content. It would be even better if you could maybe link some of the corresponding research papers. E.g. in this case about 'eccentric excerises beeing outdated''.

[@andycowley7979]

As a climber who has suffered from golfers elbow over the years this video was very interesting. It however leaves a big unanswered question for me. If golfers elbow is caused by overloading the tendon/muscles (which you need to do in order to grow muscle and improve) how do you go about overloading the muscle without getting golfers elbow? I understand you don't just increase the intensity of your training, there has to be a steady build up in order for your body to adapt. But over how many weeks do you do this to avoid injury? Is this specific to each person or is there a general rule of thumb? I've tried to build up the intensity of my training to improve gradually but always find I get to a point where I get elbow pain and have to ease off or stop climbing for a period of time in order for elbow pain to go away. Clearly I'm doing something wrong.

[@princekhut]

amazing talk! thank you so much!

[@AlcatrazMeow]

when I am bending the elbow I get a painful click, irriation, what does that mean?

[@guilhermesilva9956]

I'm going through this right now and this video was certainly very important! A doubt: this injury may have been caused by the use of tools (such as axes, picks, shovels...) or is it more likely to have occurred due to climbing? Another doubt: I read the report that, in a way, climbing helped in recovery ... I have avoided climbing and given preference to exercises, should I go back to climbing? Thank you very much, cheers from Brazil!!!

[@hyau23]

A rehab series would be ideal: ive been plagued with PIP joints issues for years and tried a lot of different things which havent really helped. Atm it hurts to clench my fist with pain all round the pip joint

[@giladooshlon]

Awesome episode! Would love to see something similar for meniscus injuries. I have torn the menisci in both of my knees - underwent surgery for one of them and the other was not so bad. Most of the time it's ok now, but every now and then, if I do a lot of moves with heavy load on the knees, it gets a bit painful for a day or so. Also, I tend to avoid high risk moves - specifically heavy load on acutely bent knees.

[@ed1pk]

Look up KneesOverToes guy. 👍

[@hlbusiness4432]

Thanks for the advice. Could we please have a video about the famous stretch and shoulders alignment exercises asap :-) ? thanks

[@acdc1767]

Great content as always!!

[@lorenzoferrari2693]

Very interesting! I currently suffer from epithrocleitis, which is almost healed, and I use an elbow brace. It helps me a lot to feel more confident during training (lowering loads) and also in everyday actions. I'd like to hear your opinion on this

[@yannd.8256]

The question is can you or should you continue climbing at lower intensity if your elbow hurts? Or should you stop right away to climb and rest for how long? Till the pain is gone?

[@LatticeTraining]

It's completely personal to the individual. We've very rarely seen the best approach to be to stop completely - in most cases this is a poor choice. But..... we can't comment directly for you as we don't know your personal circumstances! In almost all cases with golfer's elbow it's a training load issue (remember this is a function of volume AND intensity)

[@sunnytung5691]

Would love to see more details on progressive loading. And would I be able to do progressive loading exercises as prehab?

[@chazott]

Agreed. They said progressive loading is likely the best fix but I have so many questions about what that means. Does that mean to start with low weight and increase over a number of sets to a max load? Or does it mean to do the 1st workout at low load, then increase the load each workout? Is pain good? From Dave McLeod's content I've learned that pain is good (to a point) and that's the path to healing because you are creating inflation in the tendon.

[@Stevi_94]

I‘ve struggling with this right now - on both sides and enjoyed the video a lot! I guess I need few weeks off 😭

[@krankedjj]

Steven Weisbach not so sure about that. Check out Tyler Nelson at Camp 4 Human performance. His rehab exercises are excellent

[@Stevi_94]

@@krankedjj thanks buddy. I'll have a look

[@bipolarundergroundmusic1828]

Top video! Thank you

[@alexgalays910]

The annoying thing with these injuries is that often, you just don't see it coming, even if you're careful. The fine line between progressive overloading and injuries is so very fine.

[@dennismitchell4836]

Is taping for pulley injuries helpful/what is good pulley recovery practice?

[@Yanimir]

Ty

[@skateboarddudekid]

Would be cool to see a video about tendon injuries in the fingers and hands like trigger finger

[@WyandWombat]

So you pointed out golfers elbow and tennis elbow. However, I am experiencing some nasty trouble with my left elbow that seems to be neither. It's on the inside of my elbow but not as far down as the golfers elbow and it seems to get especially aggravated by slopers and I am lead to believe it's "brachioradialis". The problem is: I can't find proper exercises to treat it and simply resting doesn't achieve anything. I don't even understand how I got this problem, as I hate slopers anyway and avoid them for the most part. But touching any with my left hand gets me some nasty pain on the "upper" end of my inner elbow. I used to have problems with my tricep tendon at my elbow and had huge succes with excentric loading, but I can't seem to find proper exercises for this (not so) new problem.

[@6darkness6eternal6]

I experienced this first hand while in lockdown. I spent all of my time climbing outside for at least a good few months, and my elbow pain all but completely went away. As soon as the gyms re-opened, on my first session back inside I could feel my elbows flare up again. I think it has a lot to do with the indoor specific style of climbing in gyms. Climbing outside, even while bouldering, you're moving more delicately between bad holds, whereas indoors, you're aggressively shock loading your arms while latching really good holds with really good friction. Moral of the story is; climb outside more and do more pushups.

[@chazott]

good point. Downclimbing helps a lot too

[@asclarke295]

What about compensating by working out the Extensor carpi radialis longus, Brachioradialis, Lateral epicondyle and the Tricep? Would strengthening the opposite muscles relive tension to the affected golfers elbow??

[@robl1541]

I found this very interesting. I'd love to hear the same with regards to shoulder ligaments/tendons. I've had a niggling injury for nearly two years after a fall but struggle to find what the best exercises are to rebuild