Were Vegeta And Trunks MASTERED Super Saiyans In The Cell Games?

Were Vegeta And Trunks MASTERED Super Saiyans In The Cell Games? Did Vegeta achieve Full Power SSJ Grade 4 in the Cell Saga or in the Buu Saga? @LSMMIKE explains in this Dragon Ball Z anime and manga video.
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[@dionysisnance4204]

Vegeta briefly forgot trucks comes from a timeline where they don't let the villian power up

[@nibbaturtle3340]

Trucks? 😂

[@MaxiemumKarnage]

Vegeta gets a Ford F150

[@arby627]

Don’t you lecture me with your $30 car wash

[@CharlesLawsonSermons]

​@@MaxiemumKarnage ah, Vegeta seems the type to get a Raptor, lol

[@DigitalWraith]

​@@CharlesLawsonSermonsThat’s his and Goku’s favorite dinosaur. 🤣

[@flaviobrahja5363]

Majority of the questions about DB lore can be answered with: "Toriyama doesnt care/forgot."

[@karlkafer1580]

Lmao might be the most true statement about dragonball. I love how the fans are into all the niche aspects of dragonball and all of its content yet the creator can’t even remember main characters from the series. Somewhat poetic in my mind lmao kinda like gokus writing the manga

[@Praaggzz]

Side point it’s actually sad that Trunks had to wait until Vegeta went to sleep, so Vegeta wouldn’t be angry that Trunks was stronger. They both could’ve gotten even stronger together….all that time wasted…

[@AndrewAce.]

Vegeta probably slept like once a week in there. No wonder his results were to poor compared to Goku's...

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Well Ultra Trunks was stronger then Super Vegeta generally but it hinted that Vegeta knew about grade 3, and who knows if trunks could take the Final Flash

[@jameshollister8294]

Still don't understand why Vegeta didn't train him

[@elpopman2055]

Vegeta Already Knew About Grade 3. Lol

[@donovanbradford8231]

Yeah as Krillin once said to Trunks about Vegeta, "because he'd be mad, dude I like the guy but his default emotion is angry."

[@anto_nio3071]

I love that Trunks basically predicted super saiyan 2 and Vegeta insulated him for that ahah

[@blaketindle4703]

😂

[@iw8ship]

fr loved the episode where vegeta filled him with fiberglass 😭

[@Neo-Midgar]

​@@iw8shipDeath by a million cuts. 😂

[@aeolusedge8575]

I think it's possible that they actually did, or were very close to mastering it. The main reason why they were so much weaker could probably be chalked up to how they trained. Goku and Gohan continued sparring up until they exited the rosat, whereas Vegeta and Trunks trained separately. Sparring is much more effective than training alone.

[@jeekobu]

it would still be a little bit wonky that goku and gohan could gap the two of them that badly. Also vegeta trained for an extra year and still was leagues behind them. I think its more about their goals when they trained. Vegeta just became ascended and believed he broke through the super saiyan wall, while goku looked beyond just getting a new and instead mastered super saiyan

[@teeboz6237]

@@jeekobu It's not wonky at all. Goku and Gohan were literally sparring the entire time Gohan was a SSJ which, judging by the manga was tens of minutes after they went in. They still had almost 11 months of full training together. Vegeta and Trunks likely did (despite what the guy you responded to thinks) spar as Vegeta has a gauge on Trunks' strength and Trunks refers to them as "we" when describing their training and knew exactly when Vegeta unlocked grade 2, but nowhere near as much. And yes, like you said, their goals. Vegeta went in to unlock grade 2 and did that within a couple of months. Then decided to train to make that stronger. Mainly alone. Goku went in and unlocked grade 2 a lot quicker, while also constantly sparring and then trained for the rest of the time mastering SSJ with a training partner who rapidly caught up to and then surpassed him. Vegetas only training after his first visit, which again was used to make an inferior form stronger, was training alone for a year. Again, it's not wonky.

[@Chronoflation]

Not to mention that Gohan trained against super saiyan Goku while in base for like half the time, so his base basically had to catch up to pre-time chamber super saiyan Goku by the time he first transformed just to survive, making him an even better training partner for Goku after he finally got Super Saiyan

[@teeboz6237]

@@ChronoflationGohan achieved SSJ by the time Trunks powered up against Cell. That was a total of at max, an hour in the real world meaning that was at max a week at most.

[@lancekemal8989]

​@@jeekobuVegeta and Trunks were both way stronger in the manga during the Cell games than they were in the anime. Closer to Goku but still not quite as powerful

[@MrKevin486]

If they were why weren't they in the SSJ form all the time like Goku and Gohan otherwise they'd be ignoring the entire point of the form in the first place. The whole purpose of the grade 4 form is that you don't need to transform anymore. If they had it, they'd have been the same as Goku and Gohan and stayed transformed because there isnt a point to the form if you ignore the main thing that makes it good. Also, it's pretty clear Gohan and Goku were on totally different levels than everyone else at that point.

[@EndoScorpion]

"The whole purpose of the grade 4 form is that you don't need to transform anymore." I don't think that is the point or purpose. Vegeta even speculates that they're getting used to the form and treating it is if it was their norm. It's like going around with wighted clothing on... so that when you enter battle and remove the weights... it makes a big difference. By getting used to SSJ, it takes away the strain on maintaining it. So when they come to fight their energy / stamina isn't being wasted. It's still a transformation. That's why Goku and Gohan revert out of it when they die/are exhausted.

[@wolfwangdelosmonteros7134]

And, after that, when they found even higher levels, when both Goku and Vegeta were SSJ2, they stayed on base all the time. Elder Kaioshin once mentioned that if they fuse on SSJ, they would stay like that forever and their live span would be shorter.

[@MrKevin486]

@EndoScorpion I never said it wasn't a transformation. Of course it is. But the POINT of grade 4 is that it's essentially no more stressful to be in than their base state, and thus they don't need to waste energy to transform because they are already transformed. Basically meaning that if they have grade 4 but choose to be in base form, then transform to grade 4, the entire point of what grade 4 is is wasted and pointless, so if Vegeta and Trunks had grade 4, it wouldn't make any sense they'd be in base form and then choose to waste that energy when they didn't have to because they could have just stayed in the grade 4 form to begin with. Make sense?

[@EndoScorpion]

@@MrKevin486 Because there was 7 years of peace. They didn't need to be battle-ready 24/7 when there's zero threat (or in Goku's case he was ded). And as the other guy said; Elder Kai pointed out being SSJ all the time will shorten their life. Mike talks about this in a follow up video he posted a couple days ago.

[@shmeebs387]

I think staying in super saiyan was more about getting used to the energy output. And more specifically, to prepare Gohan for SSJ2 to make Gohan emotionally calm while in SSJ1, so when he got his rage boost, it'd propel him further instead of already being enraged from being in SSJ1. Goku needed Gohan to have that huge burst of emotion instead of just going from rage to more rage.

[@Airdog711]

I'm really glad you're back. I missed watching videos like this. You used to make them every day and it was one of the highlights of my day. If you ever leave KZbin permanently, I'm going to be very sad. I watched that video you made about how stressful of a job this can be and about how no one understands. I'm sorry you feel that way and I hope that you know that there's lots of people that care about you and that are cheering you on. You are great at what you do. I hope you keep doing it for a long time.

[@MaxIronsThird]

I think the training to control SSJ to become almost like their new base form, is only 50% to get them to stop wasting energy, the other 50% is Goku trying to make Gohan go SSJ2 more easily. As we see in the anime filler, they hadn't started staying as SSJ all the time, until Goku saw Gohan transform.

[@MegasXRL]

the truth is: toriyama didn't care about vegeta and trunks in the cell games at all, he probably forgot about their other forms and just gave them normal ssj to fight the cell jrs

[@AD-ur1fk]

Facts.

[@rutgerbauer4345]

Ultra super mastered video, Mike! Glad to see you back!

[@edwardcullenhotass]

I'm glad you're back, Mike.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Yes finally, I've been waiting for this

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Ngl it would be hilarious if Harold did a video ranking buff characters of the franchise

[@joribremer5260]

Yes please !

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Amazing video as always! You're the Best Mike 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤

[@Kenjitsuka]

Always a pleasure when an LSM video focuses on Vegeta!

[@JerryLontra]

Great vid Mike.

[@dragon-senshi]

11:22 - 17:08 Not just that, the AniManga adaptation of the Trunks special which has a guidebook on every Super Saiyan form up to Super Saiyan 2 (which was called Grade V back then), which was where the Grade IV name came from. And even then, it was never stated that Grade IV is stronger than the regular Super Saiyan. It just predictably talks about getting rid of the removing the restless feeling, as well as minimizing the strain on the body.

[@Brandolorian89]

Great discussion!!

[@TonyChronicles]

imagine how differently things would’ve turned out if trunks,Gohan,Goku and vegeta knew about fusion!

[@stormbringer2840]

Would’ve changed nothing . Goku wanted gohan to reach his full potential no matter what .

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Love your content 😊😊😊❤❤❤

[@PFHousee]

Brilliant video

[@chillermiller8654]

Seems like they were briefly in their upgraded grade 2s while fighting the jrs before quickly lossing energy and regressing to grade 1 on the page shown after taking damage from the cell jrs, and so not having mastered grade 1 into 4... otherwise why not begin with mastered 4th state unless it couldn't be done?

[@brandonreed3670]

This is one I’ve always wondered about.

[@tormentor91]

I think it's pretty obvious that they were in the process of mastering it but, despite spending more time in the chamber, just weren't quite able to get it down like Goku did, who had probably worked on it somewhat during the timeskip. When he proposes training to Vegeta he sounds like he already knows there is a way to surpass Super Saiyan, probably because he experimented with the form for a while at that point.

[@isaaccuevas1717]

It’s very wierd how goku and gohan’s super saiyans are treated the same as everyone’s else’s when they should get a bigger boost from it.

[@EndoScorpion]

They were rested / supressed. They were basically in a base form state of readiness while being in the SSJ form. As soon as either Goku or Gohan powered up to a battle-ready state, everyone else pooped their pants.

[@deatho0ne587]

Akira forgot to make Vegeta & Trunks grade 4 and then forgot that Goku & Gohan should always be grade 4. Kind of like the tail for Goten & kid Trunks In universe maybe your reason.

[@user-ee8eo4hi6q]

Why they always should be grade 4? They've mastered the form. So, they don't need to be in this form 24/7.

[@deatho0ne587]

Maintaining mastery of things does not work like that. It is not as simple as you know how to ride a bike.

[@Nestle245]

He also forgot about grade's in general. The grades were only a Cell games thing.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

In the games they just called them Super Vegeta & Super or Ultra Trunks

[@teeboz6237]

Never once in the manga do any characters, including Trunks and Vegeta refer to them as that. You might be thinking of a non canon filler scene or non canon anime refenrence but no, in the manga never.

[@madax4972]

@@teeboz6237 reading comprehension devil got you

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@teeboz6237 who cares because Super Vegeta is bad ass, and Vegeta calls himself that in the anime

[@Nestle245]

Exactly these "grades" are new to me. I've only seen them used by the fandom. Even merchandise back then when the Cell games first came out the form was called Ultra not grade 2, 3, 4. .

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@Nestle245 it's makes more sense to call them grades because their expectations of the regular ssj, an then Been called grades for a while because of the guide books

[@aceclover758]

Maybe not by the cell games but after Trunks returned and over 7 years, both more than likely mastered the SSJ

[@ishowspeedplug2845]

U make a good point because also would grade 1 even be a match for the cell jrs

[@crisstoff89]

I'd say so but their power boost was smaller then Goku and Gohan. I think the reason why Goku decided to stay a SSj was because of his idea to bring the power out of Gohan , remember Goku knew from the start that he wouldnt beat Cell and only Gohan had the power , so it makes sense that Goku stayed along with Gohan to bring out even more of his power ,because of the mailicious nature of SSJ and Gohan's rage peaking far above but couldnt control more then a moment.

[@charzanboo9940]

False. Goku only thought to train Gohan entirely when the latter accidentally slipped into SSJ2.

[@crisstoff89]

@@charzanboo9940 What show were you watching? He states both in anime and manga that as soon as Gohan reaches SSJ1 (one) they can train fully

[@charzanboo9940]

@@crisstoff89 Re-read what I wrote and look up the meaning of 'entirely.'

[@AndrewAce.]

Good question. Someone told me Vegeta had been using Grade 1 the entire time instead of Grade 2, which just struck me as weird... (Also, Perfect Cell is definitely an SSJ :)

[@MaskedFighter]

That's a lot of game consoles would be cool to see some game reviews mix it up a bit

[@Jreaddy]

The good days, when goku actually had a brain in his head and actually had good ideas and understanding of his own body and fighting.

[@abominationdesolation8322]

Cell's solar flare worked on not only 18 but 16 too. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? Did Gero really not take that move into account? Biggest disappointment of the arc was how little studying the Z warriors actually meant anything.

[@randycrawford1132]

During the 7 Year Gap Vegeta masters each Grade of Super Sayian, 1, 2, 3 unlocks Grade 4 masters it and is so close to reaching Super Saiyan 2 and becoming Majin unlocks that

[@bitterthenu7278]

Goku and Gohan didnt start trying to master super saiyan till several months in and then they left early. So they were like 8 months in of being super saiyan all the time so they decided to keep it going. Vegeta and Trunks would have had a full a year of being Super Saiyan all the time. Not saying they were more mastered or something like that, but maybe they just didnt see the point of staying super saiyan after they already eliminated the stamina drain of transforming.

[@wolfwangdelosmonteros7134]

Make sense to me.

[@TheHuskyGT]

This is one of those things that's really hard to explain in-canon. To me, it is what it is; Toriyama drove Trunks and Vegeta into a character plot dead end in the Cell Games arc. Goku and Gohan had to shine, and the rest of the characters had to be set aside for that. We know Toriyama was about done with DB by the Cell Games. I can see how he wouldn't be willing to put the effort to give Trunks and Vegeta some relevant in-canon explanation as to what they achieved in the Time Chamber, and why they weren't as strong as they should've been.

[@SaturnineXTS]

The explanation is very easy - the first time around they didn't spar, they trained separately, and the second time around they went in separately. Training via sparring is much more effective.

[@kitkat6959]

We're back baby

[@Lordkeese_]

4:58 bro why are Arnold impressions so hilarious to me 😂 you got this one but nobody does it better than Aries spears, check out his Arnold impersonation if you’ve never seen it. Warning: Dont watch while stoned, you might actually die of laughter

[@LSMMIKE]

I'm doing an impression of Harold, the Angry Austrian. He's very similar to Arnold. You can check out his videos here: kzbin.info/aero/PL6zd_NvJDxOOvRTLORboXkvjIsLmokOW3

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Mike I think your next poll should be Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo & Tien in Unbound vs Bojack's Crew: Bido, Zangya, Bujin & Kogu

[@StareachValcin]

It just doesn't seem like Vegeta and Future Trunks were at the level of super saiyan grade 4 during the Cell games. They clearly weren't at the same strength as Goku and Gohan in their super saiyan grade 4 forms.

[@wolfwangdelosmonteros7134]

One thing it's not the same as the other. They were weaker, yes, but a tired Goku was weaker that both of them. Mastering SSJ doesn't put you on a certain level, it only means you control that fase. The explanation Mike give us is reasonable, Gohan was the strongest of them all, and Goku spar with him.

[@bussinnutsfuckinbutts5368]

Even still Goku has always been stronger than Vegeta since the namek saga, base Goku returning from yardrat would shit on Vegeta base from the same time period, and ssj2 Goku was clearly stronger than ssj2 Vegeta that's why he took majin, and they were both stronger than Gohan ssj2 at that time. Them being in the same state doesn't make them equal

[@randycrawford1132]

It’s actually evident that when Gohan is sleeping Goku trains by himself and finds new forms and then shows Gohan and teaches him about that when he’s awake.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Mike who think would of won between Tienshinhan & Kogu in Unbound?

[@JustinBobby-di9zt]

Kogu

[@Thromaz]

I missed the 1 hour mark...and I'll have to come back to watch later... Yes.

[@jasonenglish3713]

Was first earth God before kami or Mr. Popo create Hyperbolic Time Chamber?

[@marcelomunhozdarocha5358]

The Arnie's immitations are top notch!

[@DynastyZwarrior90]

Goku isn't that much stronger than Trunks or Vegeta in the Cell Games. Vegeta sensed Goku powering up (half of his power) on Karin's tower and was still confident in winning the Cell Games. He wasn't even impressed by Goku's and Cell's warm up fight. Besides he held his own against the Cell Jrs who are implied to be on par with Cell and as we saw Goku was match for him. Vegeta was just surprised because he didn't expect Goku to be this strong. He should be at least way above 50% Goku. Now Gohan is another story.

[@UniVS427]

Yea I think Vegeta/Trunks around 70-80% of Goku at the Cell Games

[@Luke973T]

Nothing in the manga implies that the cell jrs were on par with cell. If they were...then he would have been terrified when gohan one shot all of them instead of being pissed off.

[@JustinBobby-di9zt]

​@@Luke973TNobody cares. It doesn't have to be stated. Y'all care way too much about what characters or creators and narrators "say" instead of judging a characters power by their actions and feats. The Cell juniors are at the very least significantly stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell.

[@Luke973T]

@@JustinBobby-di9zt irrelevant to my comment.

[@DynastyZwarrior90]

​@@Luke973T In the anime both the narrator and Goku himself heavily imply that. Cell was pissed off that's why he went straight to his full power. Cell Jrs are only equal to Cell's power vs Goku and SS1 Gohan.

[@matthew4780]

They were clearly trying to do it as in the manga they don't try to ascend at all in the Cell Games, Vegeta clearly saw and understood what Goku & Gohan acomplished but it just doesn't seem like they figured out how to do it, the mere fact that they arrive in base and don't transform until they really need to is enough evidence for this.

[@mrhunter2154]

Vegeta and trunks still bulked up when they fought cell jrs and when vegeta attacked cell so I doubt it, they may have been close but vegetas pride would never allow him to copy goku

[@rm1042]

I thought it was well established that they were grade 3 ascended sayains while Goku was at grade 4 when he fought Cell.

[@joel1245]

Some source stated Mastered Super Saiyan is just as strong as Grade 3 minus the heavy drawbacks, which makes sense.

[@eranshachar9954]

I always wondered about it as well. Good to learn what's in the manga, because the anime is deceiving in this case, making it seem like they are grade 2 each from my memory, maybe I am mistaken but I defiantly remember it different. Also another interesting thing to ask- When Trunks and Vegeta go to fight Semi-Perfect Cell, Vegeta says Trunks is almost as strong as him. I always thought Vegeta was lying because of his big ego, it was in his best interest to lie so it seems. What do you think? Did he tell the truth or lied for humiliating his son?

[@LSMMIKE]

I already did that video. You can find it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnuUdnuohLVrgM0

[@eranshachar9954]

@@LSMMIKE Thank you.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Something I just realize, is that I use to think Broly in his 1st movie was stronger then Bojack then I realized Bojack fights the z-fighers after the cell games compared to Broly who fought them before the cell games

[@Morrowind4732]

I've used this very argument in debates. Like all of the Saiyans that fought Bojack had many more zenkai buffs and training times than when they fought Broly. They are much stronger and Bojack just bodies. Well until he doesn't.

[@teeboz6237]

@Morrowind4732 Koyama stated not all of the movies are connected meaning only the ones that have recurring characters are. Sorry, but M8 and M9 aren't connected and therefore don't scale to each other. Koyama also stated Broly>all anime villains until Beerus and the fact that he had the single greatest AP feat in them all means it is uncontradicted and therefore true until proven false.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@teeboz6237 Actually they are connected, Broly is weaker then cell and a lot of people after the cell saga. Also Broly is definitely weaker then Hatchiyack, Janemba & Hirudegarn, and even in his second coming

[@Morrowind4732]

@@teeboz6237 I know they aren't connected. Timeline wise they are all impossible. But you can still get a general idea of where they were. Although he's said that he doesn't have the final say. It's stated that each movie villain is stronger than the last also. He just stans for Broly.

[@Morrowind4732]

@@teeboz6237 Separate universes or timelines aside. Broly was defeated by a SS1 Goku powered by a weakened defeated group of one Saiyan, 2 hybrid Saiyans, and a Namekian. Janemba dog walked a SS3 Goku. A Goku who just powering up shook heaven, hell, and the mortal plane. I just cannot believe that Broly is that strong no matter what the differences of the universes are.

[@hybridslinky1772]

To me, reasons vegeta and trunk don't get mastered super saiyan are : a pride thing for vegeta not to mimic goku, or toriyama doesn't care since their role in that story is over (when it come to fights at least)

[@jarlbalgruufthegreat7488]

My own reasoning to this is: Vegeta and Trunks didn't reach MSSJ. There is no indication to it, their faces still look jagged and serious while Goku and Gohan can look very casual and everyone points out how they look as if they're in their base form. Plus, Vegeta and Trunks turn ssj right before battle, opposed to Goku and Gohan. Therefore I conclude they didn't actually master it but rather increased mastery of their regular ssj forms. So they can just use it instead of their grade 3s and so on so forth. Though your explanation also makes sense since no one stays in ssj anymore post Cell arc. And they look super serious while in SSJ, except maybe Goten and Trunks who look very casual.

[@Chronoflation]

They were definitely training for it after seeing Goku and Gohan. Whether or not they completed that training is an entirely different scenario

[@timgalivan2846]

Makes complete sense. Vegeta always copies goku's path instead of going his own way

[@Chronoflation]

@@timgalivan2846 His own way is "Do the hard thing Kakarot did but HARDER!!!" lol. Never got the rest and recovery lesson Goku learned as a kid with Roshi

[@teloyl]

It wouldn't have mattered because they needed Super Saiyan 2 to beat Perfect Cell and at that point in time, only Gohan was able to achieve it. Well, except to entertain Cell with more challenge. Goku probably pass the senzu bean to Cell after he went through a gauntlet of Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks much to the horror of everyone who thought, they might actually have a chance of beating him... and events will happen the same way. Honestly speaking, I think it would've mattered if Goku wasn't so keen in making it a 'fair fight' and let Cell suffer through a gauntlet of Super Saiyan bargain sale

[@MegasXRL]

13:10 well honestly trunks wasn’t the dumb one. Gohan indeed needed a new transformation for the fight although at that time toriyama didn’t had the concept of SSJ2 The big thing about the difference in power gap from goku and gohan consists in exactly that you said later on the video, they trained together all the time pushing each other further beyond. Also being able to master the super saiyan probably helped them train more and harder on those forms so they could improve a lot more. After Cell Saga we never got anymore the concept of mastering super saiyan, neither does anyone tries to teach that to goten and trunks. So we might take from that, that the “mastered super saiyan” doesn’t have a higher multiplier than grade 1 or 2, there is no 75x , that would’t make sense because ssj2 would be 1,25x mastered ssj The thing is, being used to those forms made their base form/normal SSJ a lot stronger so their 50x power was a lot stronger than grade 1 or 2. Also, about the energy thing on the actual fights. I don’t really think on dragon ball Z thats really the most important thing because trunks was very surprised by goku power so his grade 2 was weaker than goku’s SSJ. Even after another year of training.. TL;DR : i think goku and gohan got a lot stronger than vegeta and trunks because 1) like mike said they trained together a lot more so they improved more 2) they trained as SSJ for longer times so they could train and improve more their power than training to just reach new transformations.. so their base form /base ssj form got a lot stronger

[@EndoScorpion]

You know how we see Roshi go buff mode? And even Cell does the same when lecturing Trunks? It implies SSJ Grade 2 and 3 aren't actual SSJ forms. It's just SSJ combined with buff mode. Grade 3 is just buffing up too much to the point the strength gains eat into the speed. Where-as Mastered SSJ is kinda like Mystic or a potential unleash: It's able to tap into the full power of a saiyans SSJ power / potential. Power that was already there but out of reach. There are other examples of characters not necessarily getting stronger.... but mostly just learning to control their ki better / unleashing more of their potential. Again; it's power they already had. Look at Gohan in the Saiyan saga: Against Raditz he was raging out at over 1300, but he only had a normal PL of 1. Then when Vegeta and Nappa arrive Gohan's standard PL is just shy of 1000, while he can put out a Masenko just shy of 3000. Sure he got a year older and stronger but he's mainly just learnt to harness and use more of his ki power / potential. It's why meditation is important. And why potential unlocks are so powerful. Perhaps the potential unlocks are just removing mental barriers. What if Gohan raging out is just him breaking those mental barriers? I mean he's always unsure of himself. Never believes in himself. What if that mindset is what's truly holding him back. Not his lack of physical training, but his lack of belief in himself. A lack of meditation. It's kinda odd that Gohan doesn't meditate and study ki more. Since he's a scholar, and in some canons is supposed to write the book on it all. You'd think he'd be the best at it. Willing to push the boundaries, experiment, and come up with all sorts of uses for ki. On the flip side.... Goku doesn't see boundaries. He sees other people do things and he's like; "if they can do it then surely I can". And so he does. He's open to learning and open to the idea that there is always more beyond his understanding. So when he trains to push himself beyond his limits and then meditates on it.... he succeeds. Vegeta, on the other hand, thinks he knows everything and tells himself that he's already the best there is and he's maxed out. His biggest gains were on Namek when he actually contemplated on things and opened his mind slightly to the possibilities. That's why his ego is his ultimate weakness. And why Super is trash.

[@Praaggzz]

Tbh no, as they had to power up for it. Goku and Gohan had it as default?

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Doesn't necessary mean anything

[@blessedxxiii8908]

correct praaggzz✅💯

[@mainboysmusic6985]

Hmmm. In all honesty, it does make logical sense, but I kind of do feel it's a bit farfetched. Toriyama most definitely tosses in vague details that provides evidence to big things, but this one is just so vague that I feel like he would've had some characters or narrator point it out to bring it to our attention. This is most definitely an interesting question though, that's for sure.

[@bitterthenu7278]

As a lore expert and manga analyzer myself ive never been 100% sure on this subject. I know Goku and Gohan became far stronger due to actually training together instead of separately like Vegeta and Trunks did. But Vegeta was completely unimpressed with warm up Goku and he was confident that he was significantly stronger than the 50% Goku he sensed at Korins tower. He also held his own just fine against the Cell Jr who Cell said was relative to himself (the heavily supressed version of himself). So Vegeta did become much much stronger in that 2nd year. Whether he actually improved his base that much or if he mastered super saiyan idk. Because theres no universe where he was less than 80% of Goku max power, and I think was probably closer to 85-90%. (A 10% gap is significant in og DB so Goku would still easily win).

[@teeboz6237]

1 point you said was wrong. Cell in the canon never said the Cell jrs were relative to him. The Japanese version simply says "try all you want, they're my children." Nothing in that indicates the Cell jrs were relative to even suppressed PC as that would mean Vegeta>Gohan and fresh Goku seeing as Gohan couldn't even stand up to Cell and fresh Goku couldn't beat an even more suppressed version. Another point actually is that I appreciate you understand the minimal gaps needed to easily win a fight. I see so many people on forums saying things like "Goku was 2.5x Vegeta pre Majin" or some madness like that. I'm thinking, Vegeta was 12.5% stronger than Dodoria and he one shot him. Yeah sure he was stronger but not by that much, jeez.

[@bitterthenu7278]

@@teeboz6237 Yeah the Majin boost was not a huge deal. It gave Vegeta the slight boost he needed to catch up, and when Goku calls BS on that being a valid a reason Vegeta says he actually did it become ruthless again. And yeah I thought Cell saying they were his children was the dub line, I had that backwards. Exhausted Goku put up a better fight against post regeneration Cell than he did the Cell Jr tho, so we can definitely assume they are crazy strong.

[@teeboz6237]

@@bitterthenu7278exhausted Goku out up a better fight against exhausted Cell. That’s not indicative of anything other than Cell was also tired. He then got healed and made the Cell jrs.

[@bitterthenu7278]

@@teeboz6237 There was no implication that Cell was running on fumes or anything. He was still completely confident he could beat everyone else there at once. And Vegeta and Trunks were not confident that they could beat Cell so he wasnt that exhausted. He wasnt even out of breath, prob was only down to 75% of what he was previously using.

[@teeboz6237]

@@bitterthenu7278Cell was literally on panel huffing and puffing and post getting the senzu says “yes, these ARE good” meaning he was tired against Goku. Cell wasn’t confident in beating everyone there pre senzu at all. All he says is that he would let Goku take a senzu and still fight HIM. He was fixated on Goku. That’s all that’s said and all we know. So the facts are he was tired to the point of panting. He only wanted to fight Goku. He took a senzu and praised their healing abilities after. He only got cocky towards everyone after the fact. He then released more of his power/speed against Gohan. The Cell jrs we’re about even with Vegeta and Trunks who were much inferior to this Cell. Tell me where I’m wrong again??

[@Sir_Slimbread]

I'd say it's more likely that they realized that Grade 2 and 3 are pointless to use against Perfect Cell and the Cell JR's. Like you said, they might've partially figured out how to do it, but not completely. At this point in the series I don't think Vegeta was ready for Grade 4(he hadn't had his Time Skip Development yet), and I don't think Trunks would be able to Master SSJ by himself.

[@justfiredup4655]

I’m trying understand why Vegeta and Trunks were barely able to hold off the Cell jr’s. They only fight one Cell jr which contains half of Perfect Cell power. Goku was drain out, but they wasn’t.. I don’t think they completed grade 4, because they were still shocked by Goku’s power when he went full power on Cell. They have the same expression when Goku showed 50 percent of his power in front of Korin. That tells mean if they didn’t complete stage 4 of super saiyan then they didn’t just have it. That leads me to think the entire time Vegeta went ssj on celljr, or when he charged at Cell due to the death of Trunks, and when he shot Cell with beam to distract him right before Gohan finished off Cell. To me I think Vegeta pulled a grade one every time he turn into ssj at the Cell games. If they didn’t complete it then they probably resulted into grade one just using more power too it maybe but that didn’t stop them from going back to normal stage quick when they didn’t have to fight lol

[@CaptainJonathan]

What if Trunks and Vegeta not only mastered super saiyan, but also mastered transforming into it? In other words, they didn't need to stay in the form to prevent the power drain, they could just transform whenever they wanted with no drawbacks. But they remained weaker than Goku and Gohan, because they didn't train together and only worked on mastering the transformation when going into the room the second time around.

[@hiphopgamer80]

In my personal opinion they were not mastered super saiyans we saw them fight the cell Jr's as their ascended state

[@Morrowind4732]

What if Vegeta is just super petty. Like if he walked around like Goku always super saiyan hes admitting Gokus path is correct. Vegetas always been I'll do it my own way so I could see him not using Gokus technique on purpose. And because Trunks cares for his fathers feelings he just follows suit.

[@bussinnutsfuckinbutts5368]

This is very reasonable actually, hell Vegeta doesn't train under a teacher until whis after the Buu saga took him a long time to accept that others had things to teach him

[@kalevipoeg6916]

I don't think there is any way Goku was logically till 2x as strong after Vegeta and Trunks went in again, and I will explain why: 1. Vegeta SENSED Goku's powerup BEFORE he went in for the second time as he showed Korin HALF his full power according to Goku - now, Vegeta didn't HEAR him say it was half, so may have thought that was his FULL power. BECAUSE Goku's demonstration gave Vegeta a TARGET LEVEL to surpass, which he'd 100% make SURE he passed. This is VEGETA we're talking about. Think about it. Every PREVIOUS time he had seen Goku at a given level he QUICKLY surpassed that - usually in days to weeks, years in the case of SSJ- but he OBSERVED Goku's level at a given point in time and WOULD inevitably surpass - a bit later on - the level Goku HAD been at when he observed him fight. For INSTANCE: Goku showed up on Namek WAY ahead of Vegeta - power level 180,000. Vegeta responded to SEEEING this power power by quickly rising high enough to challenge Frieza's first form - half a MILLION. Later, he saw Goku as a super saiyan on Namek - target set, and a while later HE got SSJ and DEFINITELY was way beyond Goku's power on Namek when he went ssj for the first time against #19 (in fact he outperformed ssj Goku who had been training for years since namek even BEFORE the hart virus took effect). He didn't have TIME for training and catching up in the buu saga or he surely would have after seeing SSJ3. NOTE that Vegeta didn't OBSERVE Goku in otherworld in the 7 years after cell, so he didn't know WHAT level to target to keep up - but he DID surpass both Goku and Gohan's Cell games level by the time of buu. My point is, HAVING observed HALF Goku's max, he WOULD logically set his goal to surpass what he'd sensed, and given a year and his previous track record? He WOULD logically exceed that level or die trying - he's NOT going to accept coming out f that chamber still weaker than the level Goku had demonstrated at half power. SO, therefor it is logical that Vegeta is at LEAST a bit stronger than half Goku's level - the level he went in thinking was Goku's full level. He'd want to surpass it by more than just SLIGHTLY, though, so given his intelligent assessment of what Goku was trying to DO by staying in SSJ and the limitations of the bulky form, FOR SURE in another YEAR Vegeta WOULD find a way PAST that obstacle - he was just too stubborn to use Goku's method and show he'd LEARNED from Goku (he'd rather die) and too proud to spar directly with Trunks every day even though his results would be MUCH better if he had. Vegeta's PRIDE and anger are the ONLY things really stopping him from being far stronger than he is. When he let even SOME of that go and got humble enough to LEARN from a teacher (whis, beerus, yardrats), the gap between him and Goku slipped away. Ultra Ego - because it gets stronger every time he's hit - quickly closes any gap that DOES pop up now, and even in terms of base form combat skills only, Vegeta DID beat Goku in a match recently. ANYWAY, for that reason I'd say after round 2, Vegeta is probably somewhere between 60% and 80% of Goku's full power when HE really gets going. He did not do a full "this is all my power" powerup in the cell games where he took his time to build it up - he just popped into SSJ and went - so we never REALLY saw him or Trunks at 100% in the cell games. No, not even when Vegta rushed super perfect cell after Trunks was killed - though in that moment he Probably fr a moment at least rivaled Goku's full power given a rage boost - it's jut that Cell was beyond or equal to SSJ2 Gohan at that point so it didn't matter. My bet? Vegeta is 75% of Goku's full power after round 2, less than 25% BEFORE round 2, so he got 3x stronger after round 2 than when he fought perfect cell. That would explain why he can follow the fight and do things like knock a SSJ2 level super perfect cell off-balance with an attack while everyone else was brushed aside like flies. He'd still be frustrated that Goku was STILL 25% stronger. It tracks. 2. When Vegeta fought perfect Cell, final flash WAS able to actually seriously wound Cell - if he couldn't regenerate, that would be Vegeta's win back then - Goku before HE went in was WEAKER than Vegeta - veen Piccolo obsereved after the #19 fight that Vegeta was likely stronger than Goku at that point. SO if Goku was STILL twice or more stronger with a year LESS training than Vegeta, it suggests he went from maybe 80% Vegeta's level against #19 to maybe 10 times Vegeta's grad 3 level against imperfect cell with HALF the time - remember, Vegeta was stronger than Goku against #19, but significantly weaker than #18, who was weaker than #17, who was weaker by far than IMPERFECT cell, who was slightly weaker than #16, who was FAR weaker than SECOND FORM cell, who was much weaker than grade 3 "super vegeta" , so Goku not ONLY had to jump past THAT whole crazy chain of power jumps but at least ten TIMES beyond a level that was already MANY TIMS his level going INTO the chamber after waking up - you KNOW Vegeta given his previous jumps got EXPONENTIALLY stronger in round 2 than he was in round 1. In other words, if Goku i STILL 2x or more stronger after round TWO for Vegeta, his gain rate was something like a HUNDRED TIMES Vegeta's to get there in less than half the time, and frankly even for Goku that's silly. No, I'd say Vegeta is at LEAST 60% of Goku's level and at most 80% or he'd have been more confident than he was. He'd SURELY set his target to pass the level Goku showed Korin, so WOULD pass the 50% point. I contend that 75% is a perfectly logical place for him to land while still being LOWER than Goku and Gohan. Remember, this dude even BEFORE round 2 MAN-HANDLED Cell's second form and blew half of a fully braced PERFECT cell's torso off - I don't buy him NOT being REASONABLY closer to Goku's level after another YEAR of gains. I think the MAIN problem is Toriyama COMPLETELY FORGOT to take a couple panels to SHOW that Trunks and Vegeta had gotten stronger than before. It's really hard to gage their exact level - other than "below Goku" given that thy never got a proper full powerup (you know, with wind blowing and aura flying where they're clearly letting it ALL out) after round 2 of training - they stood and watched Goku's fight, acknowledged he was STRONGER but didn't say how MUCH stronger, and than fought a bunch of Cell Jrs (who knows THEIR exact power level other than "way beyond cell's second form otherwise Vegeta and Trunks would stomp them in seconds if they fully powered up, so probably CLOSE to perfect cell level except smaller") and then got whomped by SUPER perfect cell who was way beyond Goku ANYWAY...so yeah, GIVEN the Cell Jrs are clearly well beyond 2nd form cell it IS are to say they are CLOSE to perfect cell's level - which begs the question "then why'd thy explode when SJ2 Gohan hit them but cell didn't?" - the simple answer being "because they were much smaller, their bodies were not as durable". To still be standing after all that, they were both clearly STRONG - probably each could have fought Cell and done a BIT worse than Goku - and I think Toriyama just did not take the time to HOW us that because at 75% Goku's level, if eeven Goku lost, the result would be no different for them except they'd lose FASTER.

[@jplaya2023]

No they never mastered it in the cell games which goes to show how dumb or prideful vegets and trunks were. I think they were grade 1 in the cell games and they used grade 2s power in their grade 1 state. If that makes sense.

[@kersonjacques]

Blasted from behind is crazy lol

[@ooferrell]

He got them backshots 😂😂😂

[@DigitalWraith]

To answer the title question, *No* They were regular Super Saiyans. They just got stronger due to training another year in the Room of Spirit and Time.

[@paulerxx]

Grade 2 = Super Vegeta, Grade 3 = Muscle Trunks Grade 4 = Goku and Gohan Grade 5 = SSJ2 (for those who may be confused)

[@majorpain8004]

Trucks doesn’t even have grade 4 ssj if you want to count DBS so how does he have it here?

[@JJJJ-he8bz]

They put up a decent fight against the cell jrs

[@blessedxxiii8908]

the cell jrs were toying with them they would've died if 16 didn't intervene either way gohan was gonna ascend into ssj2

[@NiallByrne]

Sounds like they mastered it but still were not at the same lvl as Goku and Gohan, I also was thinking maybe they stayed in their base form, to hide their power, Let Goku fight cell and if things go south, trunk and vegeta were gonna jump Cell. Which did end up happening when Vegeta tried attacking cell and then blasting him at the end. Definitely feels like trunks was gonna step in sooner and thats why cell took him out first.

[@ojpickle5923]

If vegeta was a mastered ssj and still didn't go ssj2 when trunks died then that's pretty sad

[@mike0133]

No. Gohan deserved to be the hero of that saga.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

That's because Gohan was the 1st ssj2

[@blessedxxiii8908]

some fans were debating why vegeta didn't obtain ssj2 its cause they never mastered ssj like goku or gohan otherwise they would have had ssj1 normally without having to transform imo it's pretty simple to understand if he did then guarenteed he would've gone ssj2 would've been epic tbh💯

[@Spanky8402]

Vegeta is a Master Baiter. He baited people back in my school, arguing if he was Mastered Super Saiyan. 2 skinny kids slapped each other at lunch hour. 😆 🤣 😂 It was awesome. Those were the days.

[@mystic_bladez8215]

I think that they did, but they didn’t compare to goku and gohan in power because their bases were so much weaker than goku and gohan. It would be very interesting to ask toryiama himself and see what he says.

[@bussinnutsfuckinbutts5368]

I believe so, and even if not, Vegeta definitely mastered it during the buu arc and trunks sometime on his own, because as I understand it, mastering super saiyan was needed to get to ssj2, as ssj2 is a super Saiyan going super Saiyan, in the voice lines for rb2 in the character encyclopedia, ssj2 gohan has a line that he says "I'm a super saiyan among super saiyans! You ready?" Which is an awesome concept when you think about it

[@kingades1013]

It’s weird because normal ssj couldn’t handle 17 and 18 so what grade was future trunks when he killed them and cell? It looked like normal ssj but they hadn’t mastered it at the time.

[@TsubasaOfTheSword]

I want to know what they’d say about Yubel. 🤔 For me, 100% smash.

[@MaskedFighter]

i disagree with Goku being way stronger than Vegeta at the Cell games because Vegeta was super confident when he arrived to the arena he remembers what Gokus power was at half of Gokus full power at Korins, he was very confident he surpassed atleast that level of power, so he had to have been atleast more than 50% of Gokus full power, the gap wasnt as big as people made it out to be. Remember Vegeta went into the chamber a 2nd time fully knowing Gokus 50% full power, i have no doubt he atleast surpassed that because he seemed super confident at the start of the Cell games and was only shocked when he saw Goku at full power.

[@JJJJ-he8bz]

I strongly believe cell wouldn’t have been able to fight them off if they ganged up on him before those cell jrs

[@bussinnutsfuckinbutts5368]

Hell nah he wouldn't, Goku already did pretty good, throw in Gohan, Vegeta, and trunks? Cells cooked but yk we gotta stake the fate of earth on death matches

[@NJ-sd9zb]

My headcanon-neither attained mastered ssj, and Vegeta was too prideful to use a “flawed” form in front of Kakarot. Trunks simply followed Vegeta’s lead so as not to humiliate him.

[@jaysonrainey8180]

Imo i do think vegeta and trunks were grade 4 ssj1s but unfortunately they didn't reach the ssj 1 grade 4 level that goku and gohan gohan achieved.

[@ldungey6972]

Mannnn I had a DBZ question for you I thought of last week but I can't remember it now! hdiughduighdfiughdfiugh

[@raincatchfire]

I think you made a good case that they can access grade 4. But relative to Goku and Gohan, I don't think they mastered it. Which is kind of dumb, because they saw how Goku did it - by making it his normal state. However I do think after Trunks gets shot that Vegeta might have gotten a rage boost to rival grade 4 Goku, just for a brief moment because again I don't think it's mastered.

[@joetyrant4713]

Ssj grade 1 is 1x Grade 2 is 1.3x Grade 3 is 2x but loss of speed and stamina Grade 4 is 1.5x (Veg and Trunks in Cell games) Grade 4 mastered is 1.7x (Goku and Gohan) Ssj2 is 2x

[@segaherman_twitch]

Yo laghing stock

[@SevenCompleted]

28 minutes is a long time to say yes or no

[@danielhenry4365]

I think Vegeta/Trunks tried to achieve Grade 4, but didn't quite do so yet by the time of the Cell Games. I do believe they got stronger in their standard Grade 1 SS forms though (post 2nd Time Chamber session); to the point of surpassing their Grade 2 SS forms (VS Semi-Perfect Cell) in strength, speed, and of course, stamina. I think that due to seeing Goku/Gohan's tremendous results with Grade 4 - Vegeta/Trunks completely abandoned Grade 2 (especially Grade 3) - even though I feel that Saiyans in Grade 4 can still technically push for extra power/speed by going into Grade 2 again (and Grade 3 for even more power) , but they all deemed the ascended forms as unbalanced.

[@teeboz6237]

Grade 4 being weaker than grade 2 would make no sense for the following. 1. The numbering system is clearly designed to have each form superior to the last. 2. Vegeta and Trunks would have gone grade 2 when fighting the Cell jr.s. 3. Goku would have used grade 2 when he hit Cell with the IT Kamehameha.

[@danielhenry4365]

@@teeboz6237 good point

[@matttyree1002]

Vegeta spent too much time training his widow's peak to be sharper...

[@bussinnutsfuckinbutts5368]

Worth is, Vegeta makes a receding hairline look hard as shit

[@derrickmarsh6136]

Going off of how Trunks and Vegeta performed against the cell jrs, I don't think they got to grade 4. Cell Jr's are strong sure, but I don't think they're a match for a fresh grade 4 ssj.

[@bussinnutsfuckinbutts5368]

They're relatively the same strength as cell himself, and cell only went half power against Goku

[@TonyMishima92]

Although Vegeta and Trunks figure out that Goku mastered SSJ, it's not indicated they know exactly _how._ They don't figure out the actual method of staying SSJ as long as possible, and instead just train hard as SSJs to get used to the form. They trained and got stronger in regular SSJ, but didn't master it to the same extent as Goku. Goku and Gohan sparring each other in training may have contributed to their strength advantage, but I doubt this is the main factor since it has nothing to do with the written narrative of mastering SSJ. If "teamwork" in training was the reason, that would have been better highlighted.

[@Cryorex]

Basically. Goku & Gohan 100% Mastered it. Vegeta & Trunks were part-way Mastered Super Saiyans, but couldn't quite Master it to the same extent. Though It's likely by the Buu Arc Vegeta had Mastered it to the same extent as Cell Games Goku & Gohan.

[@snicklesnockle7263]

>mastered super saiyan >couldn't even hurt perfect cell >somehow goku can

[@stlegion-px1wo]

Vegeta was more willing to spar with goku than future trunks

[@PegasusPablo]

What on Kami's green Earth is a Korin?

[@LSMMIKE]

He's like Yoda, only in cat form. Plus he has beans.

[@PegasusPablo]

@@LSMMIKE wait, that's how you guys call Karin?

[@LSMMIKE]

That's how the vast majority of English speaking people on Earth say his name, yes.

[@crystalfire7x]

The answer is yes.

[@EnoYaka]

I called it Ultra Super Saiyan or USSJ