Learning to Appreciate Joel Schumacher's Batman

Get 3 months of Audible for the price of one. Sign up at audible.com/patrickwillems or text "patrickwillems" to 500 500
PATREON ► / patrickhwillems
CAN’T GET ENOUGH OF KEANU ► bit.ly/2JahAhx
THE INFINITY PODCAST ► bit.ly/2TqZtuA
REDDIT ► bit.ly/2Uj44j0
__
TWITTER: / patrickhwillems
FACEBOOK: / patrickhwillems
INSTAGRAM: / patrickhwillems
__
Camera operator - Alex Roberts
Research/animated titles - Emma Logsdon
Special thanks to Ellie Fetting
__
Music by Epidemic Sound
__
SEND US SOME MAIL:
Patrick Willems
P.O. Box 380333
Brooklyn, NY 11238

[@morgansubtilis6852]

You forgot that in the 90s, fans also got an excellent animated series that was on every afternoon after school that the campy movies were up against.

[@ThePrimevalVoid]

That's the biggest thing, I think. The fact that live action movies couldn't hold their own against the maelstrom that was the Batman animated series.

[@majmun182]

Animated series is the pinnacle of batman

[@Kevin_Street]

This is a really good point.

[@dmc2076]

And yet the 90s animated series has some pretty campy stuff in it. It literally adapts the comic book story where the Joker poisons the Gotham bay with chemicals that cause all the fish to look like him so he can charge fishermen for catching these fish as they have his trademark look. No, seriously, that happened.

[@troyjardine5850]

Let us also not forget the two animated films from Batman: The Animated Series that which were also great, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm and Batman: Subzero

[@richardmaska1818]

I'm with ya on Jim Carrey and Uma Thurman's performances.. over the top, chewing the scenery, a lot of fun.

[@foujj]

Yeah but I think they would have fared better opposite Adam West.

[@richardmaska1818]

@@foujj maybe would have worked better tone wise, but that's kinda why I liked Carey opposite Kilmer, that obvious clash of personalities was fun for me.

[@leohaddad9225]

Don’t forget me freeze

[@leohaddad9225]

Mr freeze

[@Mafon2]

When I was a kid, they were the weakest points of the movie, they repelled me. Still not a fan of the performance in this particular film.

[@SupaCoopa999]

RIP Joel Schumacher. He really did make some amazing movies and I’m glad this video is here as...a bit of a eulogy to his filmography.

[@elrincondelocutre9884]

Joel was like a yes or no. He could make these batman trash films or he could make pretty great films like Phonebooth or The Lost Boys

[@evanzaremba4722]

I like his work. Both Burton and Schumacher are friends.

[@elfsieben1450]

Schumacher directed an amazing psychological horror thriller called "Flatliners" about harrowing, haunting feelings of guilt and the daring it takes to redeem yourself, and he also directed an amazing character study / arc of someone becoming more and more aggressive and putting himself in harms way to a degree of becoming suicidal in a city that he perceived appears to have gone mad and hostile, a film called "Falling Down". To go by these two movies alone, you would think he should be the perfect choice to direct a Batman movie. Now, from what information I have gathered over the years, for the most part during Schumacher's stint at Warner Brother's DC franchise, there was more than a fair share of production hell and committee intervention going on. That's what had caused Tim Burton to call it quits, and that's also what destroyed Schumacher's vision of where he wanted his films to go, so he had to compromise a lot.

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@elfsieben1450 there's an extended cut of Batman Forever in the Warner Bros vault and would you sign a petition to see it?

[@elfsieben1450]

@@evanzaremba4722 Would be nice, but as far as I know it isn't even a cinema-ready cut, more like a very rough sketch.

[@levdominikus7415]

RIP mr. schumacher 😓 Your movies weren't masterpieces but they still were entertaining. And that's something to be proud of. Batman forever is my guilty pleasure.

[@Merdicano]

Same, may he rest in peace, I don't put all the blame into how they turned out, he was forced to follow WB decisions and had the misfortune in facing up against Val Kilmer's giant ego in which he described him as childish and immature; I'll say this, they may not be the best Batman movies, but they were still Batman stories at its core, and way more close to Batman than whatever the hell Gotham High is

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

Rest in peace

[@wes6571]

Why *guilty* pleasure?

[@Merdicano]

@@wes6571 Because of their absurdity as movies

[@wes6571]

Manuel David Rendon Acevedo So what? It knows exactly what it is, and it delivers. And you said that it's entertaining so why feel guilty about it? There's nothing wrong with enjoying both more serious films and also films that are kind of campy and ironic and over the top.

[@scrambled5948]

Another point: it's quite clear that the Lego Batman games are inspired by the Schumacher films and those games are incredible

[@cyrusstanola3929]

Add to that the lego batman movie

[@noahw3309]

The dark stuff in lego works too.

[@scrambled5948]

@@nintendogamer199764 I think they're inspired by the various different versions of batman but the design of Arkham asylum and the giant statues around Gotham city are definitely based on the Schumacher films

[@jasonblalock4429]

​@@cyrusstanola3929 Yeah... The entire thesis of the LEGO Batman movie is that Batman interpretations have spent way too long wallowing in emotionally-stunted grimdarkness, and so it would be nice to have a new take which includes other facets of his character.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

@@jasonblalock4429 Lol, that's not the thesis of the movie.

[@cartervandenberg4771]

If movies ever needed a defense lawyer, it would be Patrick H. Willems

[@SamAronow]

"If Flatliners was a hit, you must acquit!"

[@adwipal]

He made a seriously strong case for Michael Bay, so I guess anyone and anything is defendable now

[@ABoyNamedArt]

WILLEMS: IN DEFENSE OF CINEMA THIS FALL ON FOX

[@ahmedshubair4103]

Yep! His points here are really great. The video peaked when he brought up Grant Morrison, who -- by the way -- also praised BATMAN V SUPERMAN. Shocker, right? The clip at 22:30 kinda brings this video down in my opinion: "Some people are only obsessed with the Snyder version which I don't like" .... I mean, seriously? Aren't you going against everything this video talked about by making that false claim about people? Every Snyder fan I know was and is a fan of Bale and Keaton. They just like Ben the most. That little clip was probably intended for humor but it would've been funnier if Patrick WASN'T invalidating other peoples' views.

[@SA80TAGE]

@@ahmedshubair4103 Amen to you, Bat-brother.

[@dinastiachowfan1401]

They improved with age because they are not formulaic. They are very original takes and the production design is freaking beautiful.

[@rey5118]

Thank you for calling him “Bill Finger’s Batman.”

[@cieproject2888]

Patrick in February: I need.... Hotter Takes! Everyone in July: Well... it's not like he didn't warn us

[@butterflyfilms939]

Scott spreads the Hot-Take-Virus and everyone benefits

[@MariaVosa]

I'm dreading the next one - probably "The Prequels were better than the original Star Wars trilogy!" ;D

[@tatehildyard5332]

@@MariaVosa Richard Brody of the New York Times already beat him to this 4 years ago. Seriously, look up his article "What the Star Wars Films Say About George Lucas"

[@noirsociety]

To me, Wesley Snipe's Blade was the true catalyst which truly influenced future comic book movies.

[@bigkmoviesandgames]

I don't think blade is great but it was the first good super hero film from marvel and definitely influenced the more serious comic book adaptations after the mostly campy cheesiness of the early and mid 90s.

[@NimhLabs]

Yeah, but he is black... so nobody wants to acknowledge he exists

[@lindomthembu4017]

@@oku12 Is it? Is it really? Better than bad ones like X3, Origins:Wolverine, Dark Phoenix and Apocalypse. But films like First Class, DoFP, Logan. The first 2. Nah.

[@ciasteczkoimbirowe1160]

Well, most of the general public at the time of Blade release didn't even know it was a Marvel character. He wasn't that popular as the X-Men or Spider-Man [these were the 'marvel batmans' in terms of recognition outside of comic book geekdom] Also the movie itself was more like those late 90s/early 00s action-horror movies, than the comic book flicks that were made up to this point. Really good movie, though.

[@raheemhamilton8624]

@@ciasteczkoimbirowe1160 I get what you say he is not talk about movie audiances or none comic book readers. But people who reads and into comic books. They are the ones who never bring up Blade when discuss about comic book rmovies coming back to form.

[@justincarter5294]

My biggest problem with these movies: the titles. The third movie should be titled “Batman & Robin”. The fourth movie should be titled “Batman 4Ever”

[@redsinsaneurbex7691]

THANK YOU

[@captainbeastwinger4940]

exactly shouldnt the movie where batman meets robin and he becomes robin be calllef batman and and isnt batman 4 being called forever ironic and funny since its the last in that universe

[@BruceWayne-dr2zm]

You’re not wrong

[@johndez5213]

Yesss

[@Subfightr]

I disagree, they should be called Batman: fucking sucks 1, 2, 3.

[@Pajali]

Schumacher’s Batman and the 90’s Spider-man show jointly cemented my enduring love of puns. Even the groaners (like, everything Mr. Freeze says) make me smile. These movies knew exactly what they wanted to be, and I love them for it.

[@AlternateHistoryHub]

They're the perfect movies to get drunk too.

[@thewhitewolf7886]

If you never got fucked up and sang along with Mr freeze, you're missing out.

[@tompadfoot3065]

Batman & Robin gave us one of the best Rifftrax ever

[@jon1477]

Alternate history hub, don’t I know you?

[@Turnoutburndown]

The drinking game is take a sip every time there is some kind of word play.

[@Water_Me_Loan]

I can’t wait to try this when I eventually watch these movies.

[@Doofball3]

The Crow and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were both excellent comic book - film adaptations from this time period.

[@ChronoMune]

Cowabunga!!! Yeah this video sucks

[@dennydarkko]

EXACTLY

[@riopato2009]

but only the first movies of these characters. The sequels were just as bad and unwatchable.

[@dennydarkko]

riopato2009 TMNT 2 WAS GREAT PLEASE TAKE BACK WHAT YOU JUST SAID

[@riopato2009]

@@dennydarkko I'm going to assume that you are being sarcastic. Secret of the Ooze was a cash grab of a movie coming off the success of the brilliant and faithful comic book adaptation of the first film. This was another movie that the people involved in making it saw these characters were meant for children only so instead of continuing the story of the comic, they decided to poorly adapt the awful cartoon.

[@RadinV1]

Alright everyone... CHILL

[@lord_vwphaeton1883]

Had me in the first half... Or 3/4th... Not gonna lie

[@TravisPilgrim]

The Riddler has always been my favorite super villain and it's all because of Jim Carrey's performance. God I love that version of the character.

[@kipper1668]

the "how about slippery when wet" line made me laugh out loud tbh

[@RatelHBadger]

Would have been great if Robin had replied with "You give love a bad name"... but then, that would be more Kevin Smith level writing.

[@tomboz777]

You should have driven there by car...chicks dig the car.

[@kellys5949]

this isn’t a caarr!

[@dn22pkkdd476]

This is why Superman works alone...

[@RatelHBadger]

I'll cancel the pizza

[@tomboz777]

kevin10001 you wanna try that again?

[@josiahferrell5022]

@@kellys5949 damn, I was gonna say I love the possibility that Rises was making a reference to that line as a juxtaposition.

[@TheN1ghtwalker]

Today is a sad day. R.I.P. Joel.

[@vanyadolly]

I was obsessed with B&R when I was little. I loved the sets and the crazy colours and remade Ivy's lair for my barbie dolls. As for Batman Forever I still think it had the best film introspective to Bruce as a character. Val Kilmer wasn't the most convincing Batman but he's the best Bruce IMO.

[@Merdicano]

@@darkfyraproductions7958 Cory Michael Smith was amazing as Ed Nygma

[@ender7278]

Batman had more character development in Forever than the two Burton films combined.

[@57wookie]

Oh thank goodness someone can relate, I loved b and r as a kid very sincerely and had the playset which was so cool

[@feodiente9460]

If Val Kimer had Christopher Nolan script .He would of would of had a Academy Award. I really think that..

[@internettraveler8666]

The Batman is better at this

[@FlowerboyMedia]

I absolutely LOVED that he said Bill Fingers Batman. THE TRUE CREATOR

[@CNidolworship]

lol, Bill fingers Batman

[@RShadow12]

Dazed Gypsy Not necessarily. Kane came up with the “idea” of Batman, and Finger was the one who formed him into the character we know and love today. I would say they are equal, but unfortunately, Kane was real selfish and took all the credit

[@megustastuff]

In regards to the image he was showing on screen, it was Bill Finger’s Batman. I think that was the intention. If it was the original red suit being shown, it’d be Bob Kane’s Batman.

[@birdiec]

@@CNidolworship Bill fingers Batman while robin wanks off in the corner

[@kevin10001]

Dazed Gypsy actually bob Kane created batman bill finger was the guy who formed him into batman that we know batman was created to be sort of a mix of the shadow and the fantasy of someone bob wanted to be like bill took it and formed the more coherent character us true batman fans know and love

[@kealanover7359]

“The villains aren’t misunderstood damaged outcasts” said with a shot of Mr Freeze who actually was a misunderstood damaged outcast as he was doing everything for his sick wife. I know this video is in defence of Batman and Robin but I feel dirty doing the same thing

[@motor4X4kombat]

yeah but for the most part he was acting like a goofy 60s villain, in contrast to his animated contrapart (wich it introduce the backstory of his wife) he is stoick, he is robotic, he is cold *no pun intendet*, he is pretty much a character that reject any form of emotion because of his internal pain he is suffering, and when he does shows emotions it feels heart wrenching because you would believe this character could ever show emotions. thats not a goofy undementional character that was a legit misunderstood outcast

[@Manmade023]

I liked batman amd robin coz it had two fucking Sexy womens of all time alicia and uma! Cant deny them! Me deep exhaling!

[@cl114c0777498d]

the sympathetic backstory with his sick wife was first created in Batman: The Animated Series; in the movies and comics at the time, he was just a standard simple villain, if i recall correctly...

[@kealanover7359]

No the Batman and Robin movie had that back story too

[@scynapz]

@@kealanover7359 Correct. They took that from BTAS and incorporated it into Batman and Robin.

[@petergriffin355]

I do love this idea of many different versions of Batman. I love how there’s a Nolan version, a Burton version, Schumacher, Snyder, 60’s, the animated series, tons of comics, lego Batman. It just goes on and on and never ends

[@stormkat3399]

Unpopular self-admission: I saw Forever and B&R pretty young, and I was actually fairly obsessed with both. But I also grew up with a lot of camp. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@Najobajo]

yes. That skate neon scene was eye candy

[@Micmoves]

I was obsessed with both as well. It was my formative years. The movies are so operatic and grand in nature. I'm not sure what people hate about them so much aside from the fact that they expected something else.

[@mscapulet]

You're not alone, trust me

[@Merdicano]

@@realjohnlove Watching it as a kid, it was entertaining but somewhat pretty dull

[@pablovargas3585]

Riddler last scene just freaked me out when i was a kid

[@ComicBookGuy420]

Jim Carey played it well

[@huntcd2012]

“Joel Schumacher has nothing to apologize for” is actually a pretty reasonable thing to say.

[@Malisteen]

If anything, it doesn't go nearly far enough. "Joel Schimacher is owed an apology" is probably closer to accurate.

[@heide35007]

@@Malisteen Especially from the People who wrote said "Legends of the Dark Knight" Episode

[@kevin10001]

Brandon Spain no it was McDonald's complaining to warner brothers that they had to change the penguin so drastically for the happy meals so warner brothers gave McDonald's final say on director cause merchandising is where the real focus was put until Disney changed the focus to the lie that the box office gross was all that matters

[@thevoid99]

ok but... what about akiva goldsman. the guy who wrote "batman & robin"?

[@peterstanley8459]

Hmm, I wouldn't put money on that.

[@TheReelRapNerd]

Its funny because even as a kid, I could understand that the films were a "different take" of batman. I mean, I loved the animated series but still loved those films.

[@MADKapo]

Yeah I had a similar experience with The Dark Knight trilogy and The Brave and the Bold cartoon, they were so radically different that I could tell they weren't the same "version" of Batman, but still liked both.

[@intergalactic92]

This is the thing I always get with certain complaints about superhero films that don’t match the comics perfectly. It’s a different take! Its a new story using characters we may already be familiar with but in a different form. It doesn’t have to match the original.

[@TheRealAlexFlame]

RIP Joel....you made some amazing movies and I will always love your Batman movies :(

[@ABoyNamedArt]

One note on Patrick's beat about the soundtracks: "The End Is The Beginning Is The End" is a criminally underrated Smashing Pumpkins banger.

[@whitespyder9]

100%

[@RobertJW]

Both The End Is The Beginning Is the End and The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning are criminally underrated tunes.

[@jedisith3864]

I was surprisingly relieved when the watchmen used the final track from this soundtrack. It gave my love for pumpkins soundtrack songs some validity in a darker time.

[@filmescombrian]

Twenty years from now Patrick will be making a video arguing he likes Batman v Superman now.

[@javiermercado4518]

Perceptions and opinions change with time, even for general audiences, society might come to a place in time where BvS is seen as good, it`s not ludacris to think that

[@filmescombrian]

@@javiermercado4518 Yes, totally. Many cult movies go through this, being rejected when released and then becoming a cult favorite or even a classic.

[@mrmacross]

@@javiermercado4518 "ludicrous" :)

[@themadtitan7603]

@@javiermercado4518 Yeah like Blade Runner or Top Gunn.

[@javiermercado4518]

@@mrmacross I accept the correction, but stay with the word just for the reference

[@Spudcore]

I must say, U2's Batman song is a total underappreciated smash.

[@keenanports2695]

I will defend Batman Forever until my dying day.

[@willigagbob8243]

Not defending it, but I've always loved it. Nicole Kidman caused my puberty in that movie.

[@TheDealer1228]

@@willigagbob8243 God, she's stunning.

[@Maverick8t88]

Keenan Ports I’ve always loved it

[@DavidTSmith-jn5bs]

What some people aren't aware and what wasn't mentioned in this review was that Schumacher didn't write the script to this film! Lee and Janet Scott Batchler wrote the story and the script after reading a number of Batman comics and before Avi Arad added the "campy" elements to the end product, something he repeated in "Batman and Robin" which I DIDN'T like! At least "Forever" was closer to the comic interpretation of the characters than the other Bat films IMHO.

[@SignOfTheTimes008]

At the time it was out, I found it fun. And to an extent I still do. Batman and Robyn was just a disaster.

[@clintonleonard5187]

"Learning to appreciate?" They're my favorite ones! Batman comics weren't always serious, either, you know.

[@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat]

The Shadow, The Phantom, and The Rocketeer were all fantastic.

[@Ericdiazrd]

Spawn too

[@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat]

@@Ericdiazrd Spawn sucked. Don't ever bring it up again.

[@Ericdiazrd]

octagonproplex I think was excentric for that time

[@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat]

@@Ericdiazrd I was there. It just sucked.

[@DDuMas]

I really liked Joel Schumacher's neon lit exaggerated tall Gothic Gotham. It had a great atmosphere. Batman Forever imo had the best Batmobile and Batwing.

[@AAARRRGGGHHHHHH]

Completely agree with you on Neon Gothic Gotham - it's just pure, joyous, A E S T H E T I C. Personally, though, the Burton Batmobile will always hold a special place in my heart.

[@justinhansen9355]

Thank you the batwing in that movie was so cool

[@TheSwordfish009]

Schumacher had the best Gotham City representation, hands down. I hope they bring back the skyscraper sized statues for future Batman films.... 🗿

[@danielwilliamson6180]

I already appreciate Batman Forever and have appreciated it for 24 years.

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

I don't really like that film but I appreciate that it has better storytelling compared to the first two

[@Antwon627]

Right, before the Nolan films Forever was my favorite one of the first 4 Batman films.

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

@@Antwon627 ok

[@macintalkshow]

I unironically love Batman Forever. B&R, on the other hand...

[@matthewstephenson5781]

Even as a kid, b&r felt like it was pushing things too far. It went from silly fun, to feeling like it was telling you when to laugh

[@jonsnor4313]

I like b&r more because he went full camp as protest and having forced to his campy costumes, meant for toy sales. And arnie and uma thurman are having so much fun. Arnie is born to make cheesy or frosty puns.

[@ilikeemerica9619]

I don’t like either

[@DeadpoolAli]

I think what also could have been stated is how overtly edgelord "dark" the 90s comics were at the time. Everything in comics was dark edgy with guns knives swords skulls chains (spawn lol) and these movies were from the campy silverage era. We had a clear expectation of Burtons dark 1989 but also no real other comic book contenders (I dont think Blade had come out yet, which had the perfect amount of R rated and dark theme). I think now if it came out in a very saturated comicbook movie era it would be better recieved cuz fans would know "this isnt the only thing weve got". I think a good (and better movie) example is Lego Batman, def intended as comedy and camp and for a younger audience.

[@TheN1ghtwalker]

If it was a part of the MCU everyone would be praising it.

[@gedeonnunes5626]

I don't know, I feel like a huge part of batfans are too entitled to the ultimate badass, grim and gritty brutal Batman to accepct anything else. So much so that everyone freaked out about Battinson going way past the point of punching the random grunt in the The Batman trailer. Personally, I would love a more adventurous, light-hearted take on Batman, but I'm afraid we're not getting anything close to it anytime soon.

[@kendallhicks7109]

We’ll Blade actually brought the seriousness back to comics 🧛🏿‍♂️⚔️

[@rajathyagaraj1061]

NO one even knew that Blade was based on comics, same goes for The Mask and Men in Black.

[@kendallhicks7109]

Raja Thyagaraj shows the marvel comics in the beginning when the movies are coming on ; so what you’re saying is people wasn’t paying attention to the introduction

[@rajathyagaraj1061]

No one pays attention to something that appears for 5 seconds

[@kendallhicks7109]

Raja Thyagaraj True most people suffer from A.D.D and don’t even know it 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@pizzatime8773]

Raja Thyagaraj only idiots didn’t

[@megustastuff]

“AND BILL FINGER’S BATMAN” I see what you did there. #rememberbillfinger

[@Rommism]

😝

[@Rommism]

Between the 2 Schumacher Batmans my pick is Forever.

[@wickedmariobros-archive9448]

Haven’t seen any of the Batman films but from what I hear, most people would agree with you on that

[@casper-dakotanurse-baker7052]

Rewatching out of respect for Joel. RIP

[@brandonkrol]

“I like how all the villains don’t die.” *cough* Two-Face *cough*

[@Maniac536]

He apparently survived that. That’s why you see his suit hanging in Arkham in the next film. I know, you don’t believe it. I know, how the heck could he have survived a fall that high? I don’t have answers I’m just telling you the director said he survived that fall.

[@brandonkrol]

Maniac536 could you provide me with a source for your information, please? Because I can’t find anything that says he survived. His suit being in Arkham doesn’t mean that he did. Every source I can find, including the wiki, says he fell to his death.

[@Maniac536]

Brandon Krol sure. Batman forever director commentary

[@MrSimonEskildsen]

Schumacher: “why so serious?”

[@gryphonavocatio]

"You wrote Batman twice." "Ah, that’s intentional. Number 3 is Golden Age Batman, and number 4 is Post-Crisis Batman. They’re like two completely different Batmen."

[@curly_wyn]

“It’s time to get over the fucking nipples!” - Patrick H. Willems, 2019.

[@AdobadoFantastico]

I always thought they were aight. i think it was just one of those things where the angriest voices were disproportionately heard.

[@Merdicano]

Same really, nowadays, I just simply think that they're there and they exist, I don't dislike Batman And Robin as much as everyone, but it was certainly dull to say the least, and that's being generous

[@danielwilliamson6180]

Batman Forever is one of my all time favorite movies and I've loved it since I was 11.

[@TheDylandProductions]

I love it too. :)

[@williambarcus8861]

I was 11 too when it came out ..

[@Josh-bf3ww]

I've always loved batman forever. Batman and robin is too much camp for my taste, but batman forever was always perfect to me. It has its problems and is in no way shape or form an objectively great movie, but from the performances from Tony Lee Jones and Jim Carey to Robin's folding clothes scene, I love that movie. It's my favorite batman movie from that time

[@nicholastosoni707]

My only problem with _Forever_ is the stuff with the bank vault at the beginning. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm just an average Joe Schmo, who doesn't have a physics degree to his name, but even I can see that a puny little Bat-cable is not going to support a bank vault that weighs 100+ tons, much less guide it so perfectly into the hole it came from. (And don't even _try_ to tell me that "he took the particular Bat-cable which _can_ support a bank vault weighing 100+ tons." Yes, it's a comic book brought to life, but I'd balk even if it were on the printed page. I have my limits.)

[@reddragon3359]

I also like Batman Forever , it's not a perfect Batman film . However it's a combination of Tim Burton's darkness with the campy nature of Schumacker and it's not the worst combo. It's still fun to watch and It will always get a pass from me . Batman and Robin was utter trash and is a waste of film .

[@nicholastosoni707]

...That being said, though, _Forever_ features one of my favorite movie props: the Nygmatech Box. I'm _still_ trying to work out the mechanism to make the wings turn so I can build my own.

[@reddragon3359]

@@nicholastosoni707 that would be an awesome prop.

[@nicholastosoni707]

@@reddragon3359 I should still have the 16 oz. and 32 oz. tumblers used for my proof-of-concept mockup.

[@metaloverload7374]

I love how no one ever mentions the fact that burton's batman and schumaker batman are the same character. In the first film Batman doesnt shy from killing. In the second Batman ultimately makes the choice to not kill anymore. Then in forever Robin comes along and Batman has to learn what it is to be a father figure a role he wasnt prepared for. Then in batman and Robin we see Bruce come to terms that he may not be around to protect Robin as he sees what's happening to Alfred. This is shown not told which I admire. It's a good character arch. I wish they took it a little further by taking an unrecognizable character that ultimately becomes The Batman we read about. Take out all the camp and bright colors and the story is good. My major critique of the dark knight trilogy is that they missed this. They had started the arch with begins but missed the mark with Dark Knight.

[@thrashpuppy2010]

The novelization of Forever mentions Batman regretting being a killer.

[@lamecasuelas2]

With Time i have grown to dislike the Nolan movies More and More. Not to say that they are bad or anything, i think that there's some very good moments in each of them, but there's something about the obsession with gtittiness and realism that makes It harder ( at least for me) to swallow the idea of Dude fighting thugs on the streets while he's making a silly voice and wears a bat costume. But to each their own i guess.

[@loydjenkins2241]

Reading the comic books in the 70s and 80s, I realized that each editor and/or writer had their vision of Batman. So now I know which version or movie I like more than others. More people should learn to enjoy aspects of all while having favorites.

[@mikoaj5002]

This

[@cardred17]

I have seen Batman Forever at least 10000 times. My family had it on VHS and I would watch it and rewind it over and over. Carrey is incredible, and I won’t hear arguments.

[@LectricVonThunder]

Same here. Shit, remember the Seal music video at the end? Kiss by a rose is still the shit.

[@ilikeemerica9619]

Not going to argue but even when I was I child I despised his performance even though I love jim Carrey.

[@riopato2009]

Carrey portrayal of the Riddler proves that the actor is a hack and one trick pony. Robin Williams would've been perfect for this role.

[@nicholastosoni707]

One other thought: The lighter, almost goofier nature of Batman himself in _Batman and Robin_ makes perfect sense following on from the end of _Forever:_ "You see, I am *both* Bruce Wayne *AND* Batman. Not because I have to be...now, because I choose to be." Freed from his past tragedy, Bruce is a happier man who carries on with his dark persona because it's the right thing to do. ...The major issue with that one, though, is that *everything else* is so light and fluffy and campy as to be inconsequential. Have to make a note of tracking down _Batman and Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero_ one of these days.

[@TorsosFancam]

are you talking about the animated movie? Subzero is one of the worst animated batman adaptations, the original episode of mr freeze in the 90s tv series is much better, other good movies includes Mask of Phantasm, Year One, and Under the Red Hood

[@Sombrek]

I literally came to KZbin looking for this. I didn't know it existed but I knew I had this exact opinion. I'm glad I found it.

[@kylepietrusiewicz2749]

Batman forever has tow of the best Batman moments I've ever seen, Batman and Robin teaming up at last, and the last scene where Batman and Robin are rushing off in front of the bat-signal in silhouette

[@adventuresinportland3032]

I liked Batman Forever, Batman and Robin was too much for me though.

[@TheHawks1982]

Probably because Tim Burton was still some what involved with batman forever but he was completely gone for Batman and Robin.

[@yeahiprotest]

As a kid I just loved the visuals of Batman and Robin...thought all the designs were super cool

[@JurassicRod]

I agree. I loved Forever when I was a kid (don't really enjoy it now) but damn, I think Batman and Robin was the first time I went to the cinema and was so totally and utterly disappointed. It just pushed the goofiness and garishness too far.

[@makutas-v261]

Batman Forever was a total disrespect for its villains.

[@denzelgondwe7639]

Same boat

[@OnlyLokimobile]

I always thought Val Kilmer was the perfect balance of Batman and Bruce Wayne. Keaton was a great batman but didn't really feel like Bruce Wayne. Bales was a great Bruce but I thought his batman was just okay. Clooney, great Bruce bad batman. However I do think Affleck is the best now for both sides of the coin.

[@officialgoogleyoutube]

While I agree with just about everything you're saying, I don't agree when it comes to Kilmer. I've never found him to be remotely believable in any role, and I like John Wayne as an actor!

[@Tformer23]

Val had the perfect voice for Batman. No modification or gargling sand required. The only other voice that tops his is Kevin Conroy, of course.

[@Wired4Life2]

Too bad the movies around Affleck's Bruce/Batman were overambitious crap.

[@nova-jo1649]

Agreed!!!

[@RadinV1]

RIP Joel Schumacher.

[@Replyingtoyourdumbcomment]

Batman forever with the deleted scenes was awesome. People need to watch it.

[@eily_b]

There is no version of that.

[@YYYValentine]

I loved the unique cinematography and production design in Batman Forever. (Most of the people don't recognize those). Also it has my favorite music score.

[@ImChrisHinton]

Every shot in Forever has purpose. It’s a beautiful film, the best shot of the 90s films

[@jblue1622]

Bálint Áts I checked the soundtrack cd out from the local library and blasted it for several weeks until I had to turn it back in, loved all of it then

[@eily_b]

I do.

[@ruthlesssavagehatred6428]

Hot take: I enjoyed Schumacher's Batman movies AND Snyder's

[@jordansweet8054]

There are things to enjoy I'm on both sides to be fair.

[@kp361]

Love that you mention the original Flatliners. I legitimately love that film, and have ever since I picked it up in some bargain bin somewhere as a teenager. It's genuinely great, heavily stylised entertainment.

[@Rodeorigo]

I love Batman and Robin. I really do. I love it melting my cold heart. I watch it when I'm feeling blue. I enjoy it with a chilled bottle of beer.

[@Nomad-Rogers]

I love Batman forever but Batman And Robin I could do without.

[@LordSkella]

Same!

[@josephsteel5045]

Liberty Bell1776 100% agree

[@ComicBookGuy420]

Tonights forecast a freeze is coming, damn, oh so cheesy

[@torrellwhiteside9712]

You guys are wrong if they would've kept going we would have gotten a real life Nightwing we had a batfamily Batman Robin and Batgirl it had the best bane and poison ivy honestly there was nothing wrong with Mr freeze now we're stuck with reboot after reboot because of your unwillingness to overlook small things

[@ComicBookGuy420]

@@torrellwhiteside9712 dude, George Clooney himself admitted the movie sucked, oh and as far as small things go, bane looked perfect, but he was a fuckin' mongoloid Beside the brute force that jeep swensen RIP, brought to the role, Bane was always meant to be calculating

[@RollTide1987]

Batman Forever is actually a decent comic book film that does a good job of straddling the line between Burton's vision of the character and what the studio wanted (more camp and kid-friendly villains). Batman & Robin is the perfect example of what NOT to do with a franchise.

[@riopato2009]

Joel and the Studio destroyed the whole franchise. Nolan and his demand of non interference from the studio resurrected it. The studio then destroyed the franchise again through interference when Snyder was held back from doing exactly what he wanted to do to the point where even Ben Affleck lost interest into directing his own movie then backing out to continue as the character.

[@krispalermo8133]

Kids , children Have No Money. If the Adult Parent who earns the income does not want to watch the movie in the theater, then the kids won't either. It was called one rental and don't buy it after wards.

[@vinniechan]

I was about 12/13 when Batman and Robin came out It was obvious even to my little mind the movie was there to sell toys

[@danielchae1452]

Never understood why they decided to switch gears after Batman Forever. It's not like the film flopped or anything.

[@Wired4Life2]

*Requiescat in pace, Joel Schumacher.*

[@BajaShouta]

I definitely get your points about Schumacher's Batman, and I agree to a large extent. But, I would encourage you to actually look into the Snyder Cut campaign before just signing off on it. It's less about "this isn't MY *insert superhero*" and more about "WB really took advantage of a terrible situation and honestly kinda majorly screwed over a dude who's honestly known for being a standup guy in a town that is known for not-stand-up people." The campaign is also donating a significant portion of its funds to suicide prevention charities.

[@marcpaters0n]

I'm going to go out on a limb (and probably get lynched) but the ultimate batman movie is... the Lego Batman movie. Okay, I'm off to hide in my bunker now.

[@muddi900]

No you philistine! It is Mark of the Phantasm. Jokes aside, But one Batman era that is criminally underlooked nowadays is the 70s. Mask of the Phantasm and Nolan's Dark Knight come close.

[@seanbrewer1232]

Lego Batman was fantastic.

[@xTraexEdge]

Strangely enough. I never knew these movies were that hated. As a child I saw them in theaters and absolutely loved them. The shot of them running in slow motion has been stuck in my head for decades.

[@samuelbarber6177]

This series is at least visually interesting. One thing I can say for every film in the Burton/Schumacher films is that I do like the scenery. Schumacher’s maybe garish and neon but I kinda enjoy their look. Burton is a visionary. When I’m watching a classic Burton film, even if I don’t like the story or characters, the set design is worth the entire movie. He really gave Gotham a look worthy of that name. It’s like it’s own beast, ready to swallow the characters whole. I love it.

[@bearbbb12]

I’m glad you said bill finger since he is truly the one that created Batman also I did enjoy these films and I’m also glad you pointed out some good things in them

[@sirfriendzone1228]

I really liked this except... Blade came out in 1998 and the first X-man movie came out in 2000. Perhaps Blade should have gotten a mention. Just a thought...

[@OnlyLokimobile]

I was thinking this

[@DrewLSsix]

I like Blade, but no.... it simply was not the cultural phenomena that X Men was.

[@OnlyLokimobile]

@@DrewLSsix it's not about success it's about style and giving the audience a comic book movie that fit the time. Which Blade did. But if you want to talk success blade made ~140 mill on a 45 mill budget when nobody would touch a comic book property with a ten foot pole. And it was an almost unknown property with a black male lead in the 90's. X-Men made double on double the budget. With every advantage including an all-star lead and a huge marketing push. And it was PG 13. Blade was the cultural phenomenon if not more than the X-Men.

[@lawrencestevens2673]

Only Loki “All star lead” You mean unknown actor Hugh Jackman? That was his breakout role. They cast an unknown. I would definitely not call Patrick Stewart the lead of X-men

[@OnlyLokimobile]

@@lawrencestevens2673 Halle Berry, Ian McKellen, Rebecca Romijn, and yes Patrick Stewart was the star of the movie. The only people who could have stuffed that cast list more is maybe Tom Cruise, or Tom Hanks.

[@jacotromp1065]

Schumacher is a brilliant director.

[@bmla88]

Jaco Tromp no

[@whothis9949]

X X you caused his death by replying on a 10 month old comment with hate

[@Merdicano]

@@whothis9949 OK, let's not go that far

[@Merdicano]

@Kai McCook Thhey could have been a good representative if WB had let him done it right

[@smaimth]

@@bmla88 you obviously didn't watch the video

[@BenderDaOffenda]

One thing I appreciate about Schumacher's Batman's films was the set designs and the cinematography. I also find it ironic people bash Schumacher's Batman for its humour but MCU does the same thing, and it's "OMG! Best movie of the year! It's fun!"

[@motor4X4kombat]

Yeah thats pretty much hipocrite. I mean robin making a quip about chicks and a batcredit card Is bad, but fucking making a blow job inuendo or a dumbass "im so millenial that i don't know the diference between ac/dc and led zeppelin" joke in far far from home Is fine for these people.... Seriously as even far as childish the raimi Spiderman movies where at least they didn't do a Dick joke or a forced pop culture reference like half of the humor of the mcu.

[@Merdicano]

@@motor4X4kombat You know dude?, You really made me rethink a lot of things actually, and I thank you for it

[@ChadParenteau]

A BAT CREDI--Hey, I'm cured!

[@jwheeler1106]

You forgot about The Crow and The Rocketeer!

[@IndustryHarm]

And the Phantom

[@maxcklein]

Joel Schumacher didn’t make the Brat Pack famous with St. Elmo’s Fire, John Hughes did with The Breakfast Club.

[@tonytygrrHI]

Thank you for helping me let go of Young Me's perception of these movies - and appreciating the Schumacher movies for what they are with grown up eyes.

[@truthbetold9092]

Batman Forever will always have a spot in my heart oh, I still remember to this day when my dad took me to see that in theaters. I'm 29 and it still brings me joy.

[@CaptainRaccoonWhitly]

To be honest, I was never fond of live-action Batman pre-Batman Begins. It's nothing against film techniques, I just didn't feel like there was enough substance in the movies' narratives to engage me. That said, the backlash against Schumacher is a little excessive. Being uber-serious all the time is boring.

[@charleynewman5057]

It's worse than just boring, you end up making the audience actively root against you and the characters. That's what happened with Snyder, he just did his old tired shit.

[@jordansweet8054]

Agreed on both points.

[@charleynewman5057]

@HAYAO LEONE What a brilliant refutation.

[@1183newman]

The new Joker movie is a singular take on a comic book character separated from the rest of the DC Universe.

[@integrity101]

Batman Forever could be greatly improved with a Directors cut very easily

[@thrashpuppy2010]

I've been wanting a director's cut for years. Hopefully we'll get it someday.

[@integrity101]

@@thrashpuppy2010 Download the BATMAN FOREVER VIRTUAL WORKPRINT.

[@TheJoern]

I think, there is one thing we can all agree about: Uma Thurman was a hell-a good Poison Ivy

[@shophet125]

0:30 I'm still sad there wasn't Schumaker Batman & Robin suit DLC for the Arkham games. I wanted to dress up Wayne and Grayson right.

[@vanyadolly]

With nipples?

[@mathiasolsson7616]

At least, they're memorable. It can't recall the plot from half of the super hero movies from the 10's.

[@slashandbones13]

With the 2000s, you could try the argument.

[@jensonwrutherford]

jjsainto was it just me who kind of liked Thor 2. Personally, I understood the plot fine. It was still bad, but not as bad as people say it is. Same with Iron Man 3

[@erenmademewritethis9833]

I can't remember the plot.of the two movies

[@mathiasolsson7616]

Guess saturation also has made each superhero movie less and less special over the years. (for me at least)

[@nileshkumaraswamy2711]

IDK about the plot of half but I see where you are coming from.

[@ttz4m3]

I've always loved Batman Forever!

[@Esgles]

I’ve to correct you on one thing. Joel has nothing to apologise for because his movies were what Warner wanted at the time. Batman Returns despite being critically good was way too dark for kids. Warner Brothers forced Batman Forever through edits and we got the theatrical version of Batman Forever. But, when you listen to the 3 hours Batman Forever audiobook which can be found here on KZbin, you will immediately realise that Batman Forever might have been the best Batman of the 90s if Warner didn’t screw it up. This version is where Two Face wanted to stop being DA and Batman forcing him to remain, explaining Face’s hatred for Batman after being splashed with the acid. This version is where Two Face tells Batman that he killed the Joker and Penguin thus making him a killer too. A version where Batman feels guilty about contributing to Two Face becoming bad and tries to shoot him with a gun at the circus, only to stop himself out of guilt about his former friend and that guns were what killed his parents. A version where Batman simply knocks Two Face coin off tangent in the end and Two Face makes the decision to kill himself on his own after Robin has a talk with him. Anyone who wants a darker take of Batman Forever, search for the audiobook on KZbin and see what Joel was trying to do with Batman.

[@rosebyanyname]

I can appreciate Joel Schumacher's Batman. But you better not ask me to appreciate Joel Schumacher's Phantom of the Opera.

[@seanbrewer1232]

I thought it was okay, and you are of course entitled to your opinion. But I know a lot of people who love that movie, and its detractors always bring up how it was a critical flop, with most critics hating Gerard Butler's casting as the main character. But many don't know that kind of matches with the stage show. The stage shows of POTO are usually loved by audiences but loathed by critics, who often hate the casting of the Phantom.

[@rosebyanyname]

Yeah, it was just like the stage show and that’s the problem. No effort to make the medium transfer work at all. I’m a New Yorker who’s seen the Broadway show several times, and I agree it’s a great one. But it doesn’t work the same way on film. For now, I still say the best Phantom adaptation on film is Phantom of the Paradise.

[@tcmn1982]

Joel Schumacher is a great director before and after Batman movies. Unfortunally he was smashed by people and studios.

[@duffman18]

There's no excuse for how bad Phantom of the Opera was because that wasn't backed by a studio but funded by Andrew Lloyd Webber himself. But yeah for the most part he's a good director I think.

[@kevinpauly6342]

duffman18 That movie was great!

[@TheMoviePlanet]

The Phantom of the Opera is superb.

[@jonsnor4313]

Didnt like phantom of the opera, but batman and robin, he couldnt make a serious movie due weird studio regulations, and he didnt, you cant be bad with being so culty camp fun. And he did it intentionlly i think telling the actors to have fun. good comedy salvaging what he could.

[@Clarence_Oddbody]

Blade made the MCU possible, with its tax dodging star and Traci Lords cameo.

[@toddgarver5397]

The MCU could definitely benefit from more porno actor cameos

[@boredXsomethingXIDK]

Spider-Man made the MCU possible. Blade just gave people hope again.

[@rashb3994]

He actually actually got in trouble because he was a high profile name practicing and making people aware of being sovereign citizen and had a private but free fight school going on. I believe it was directly helping the inner city youth, so they couldn't have that disrupting the private prison pipeline so they used taxes. I believe too though Blade is more responsible for the MCU terms of quality product put out grounded in realness with fan enthusiasm, while Spider-man helped it financially.

[@fairplayterrific147]

@@rashb3994 Best Comment I've Read In Terms Of WS And His Film Blade And Raimi's Spider-Man....

[@loudboy317]

@@boredXsomethingXIDK Actually, Blade put Marvel comics on the Hollywood map. Then, X-Men lit the fuse while Spider-Man opened fire for the rest of the Marvel characters.

[@demonpniff]

I agree with this. I have always said that Batman and Robin and Batman Forever were just comic books (as you point out, from the 60s) translated directly to the screen.

[@brianmillerspeaks]

Man, I grew up the same era as you, Patrick. I LOVED Batman Forever when it came out, wore out the VHS tape, and still love it to this day. Great essay, here.

[@Lumidingo]

100% Kudos to you, Patrick, for Bill Finger's Batman.

[@francescomanzo3939]

@Robert Mitchell The Creatof of Batman.

[@jackwright1710]

I think I’ve watched this video 3 times and I love how in-depth it goes within Batman Forever/ Batman and Robin. It’s gotten to the point where I actually want to watch the two films just to see how they hold up compared to superhero movies nowadays. Great video Patrick 👌

[@ionicafardefrica]

wait, Joel Schumacher's movies were bad? What the hell, I loved each and every one of them as a kid! They re-aired one of them on tv about an year back and I STILL liked it. We obviously have different tastes...

[@meredithsutton1485]

I've long had a soft spot for Batman Forever. I love the gothic Gotham, Carrey's Riddler, and Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face. I'm glad to see these movies get some serious attention!

[@eily_b]

Same here, Meredith. I also love the gothic Gotham much better than the daylight Chicago-Gotham of the newer movies. ;)

[@althaz]

Batman Forever is grossly underrated. I'm not sure it qualifies as *good*, but I love it anyway. Batman & Robin...less so.

[@wanaan]

Love the Schumarkter Bats. It was really fun stab at the character, and I will watch another one if it ever comes out.

[@TheWayfarerFamily]

Morrison is my fav also. And I love his complete embrace of the comicbook medium. He understands it as fluid and free and inclusive or whatever one wants it to be. Brilliant take Pat.