What's the Point of R-Rated Superheroes?

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A grim and gritty discussion about grim and gritty superheroes
Special guest appearance by Gerry Conway
Featuring original music by Brian Metolius www.brianmetolius.com/
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Chad Ruhle as the deep voice
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Music by Epidemic Sound
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[@Andy-vz8mx]

The willingness to embrace the silliness and absurdity of comics and superheroes while still trying to make something which can appeal both to adults and to children is exactly why James Gunn's GotG vol. 1 and 2 worked so well.

[@yveltalpoderoso1303]

That looks cool but now he is making an unnecessary r rated suicide squad

[@WanderKrew]

@@yveltalpoderoso1303 Suicide Squad has kind of always been aimed at older audiences tho.

[@dieinanotherday]

Nope

[@lye27]

@@yveltalpoderoso1303 suicide squad always meant to be R rated. Even in the comic and animated movie

[@trissc6855]

@@yveltalpoderoso1303 Go watch Suicide Squad Hell to Pay, it's animated but it's one of the few examples of wb making a animated movie that's violent without weirdly childish humor(also why suicide squad kinda has to be R rated, just watch it it's good)

[@elijahanderson3288]

There's a great quotation by C.S. Lewis that I think fits this video very nicely. "Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

[@MariaVosa]

That is a boss quote!

[@jcoliveira93]

"Hey, that's the name of the show!"

[@guardaxion]

Or as the Doctor would put it: "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes"

[@Wired4Life2]

How would you apply that quote to the *_animation_* age ghetto?

[@elijahanderson3288]

@@Wired4Life2 Hmm. Good question.

[@theseupwardsparks8541]

The most adult superhero story is the Teen Titans Go episode about equity and rental properties.

[@FrauleinMuller999]

That show is insane, and I mean like mad, crazy

[@uchihabomber1296]

Lowkey learned what Equity was from it too

[@harrylane4]

Some of the shit I hear about ttgo I swear

[@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214]

Teen titans go is a very hit or miss show, it missed way more than it hits but when it hits it is damn good

[@SirrSerpent]

What’s it called?

[@ajzeg01]

Star Wars fans need to hear this too. They get so defensive when you call The Clone Wars a kids show, which it is. It’s a kids show that is very well-written and deals with mature themes, but it’s still a kids show. It’s okay to like a kids show and it’s okay to admit it’s a kids show.

[@juicebox9465]

I agree, clone wars is a kids show.

[@ajerqureshi6411]

Star Wars the Clone Wars is a great show that's definitely appropriate for children. Same can be said for Rebels, which interestingly still has a lot of same mature themes as Clone Wars WITHOUT including some of the brutal stuff the Clone Wars show did...Then there was Resistance, a show I personally find entertaining but was DEFINITELY made for a more kid-friendly audience.

[@frejo1931]

an example that struck me when i rewatched it, is the episode that does deal with political corruption, but it requires a scene where a main character looks into the camera and explains what that is to a class of children. Because this is a kids show and kids might not know what corruption means.

[@blokey8]

Next thing you'll be telling me it's meant to be space fantasy and not hard-hitting, realistic milisci.

[@theobuniel9643]

You could say the same for Avatar fans.

[@LooseAsADEUCE]

Im probably gonna take a more extreme stance and say most of what people say they want in their "adult" superhero media is what 14 year olds think is adult. Blood, gore, and depravity is what kids on Reddit think is adult. Stories that deal with trauma, growth, finding oneself and asking the hard questions are far more adult than someone running through an innocent person or a super hero sex club. There are cartoons more adult than a lot of these R rated movies and shows, but because people have this flawed idea that adult = sex and blood they'll never realize that. I almost feel sorry for them.

[@j.b.9260]

You ... couldn't be more right.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

Hit the nail on the head.

[@comixproviderftw_02]

That’s what Hollywood thinks when it comes “adult” animation, where it’s just nothing but a bunch of TV-14 cartoon shows that are just edgy for the sake of being edgy.

[@damiantirado9616]

But isn’t that what the boys is? I mean yeah it has gore and sex but that’s just entertaining. The characters actually deal with traumas from the past and other issues that pg-13 superhero movies don’t deal with

[@STRANGEANATOMYBAND]

See, this is the other kind of dissonance that occurs in this debate, because if you’re so concerned about what the definition of “adult” is, why are you watching superhero stuff at all? The Boys is adult insomuch as it imagines the depravity that occurs in the real world being perpetrated by people with super powers. The way it plays out is farcical and silly because the show needs to have a lot of levity or it would be overly depressing and nightmarish, like the original comic book was. I can both admit that my tastes tend towards what many would derisively call “gritty” but I can also admit that my tastes also run toward the frivolous and silly because I like superheroes, sci-fi, horror, etc. None of which is inherently “adult.”Still, I enjoy that sweet spot in between harsh realism and absurd fantasy. But like Patrick said: it doesn’t all have to be for me. I’m not out here trying to demean the tastes of others. Even if I personally find a lot of the more light-hearted superhero content cheesy or boring, that’s just my opinion. I’m not going to call anyone childish or whatever because they like it. Except for Gotham. That show is just ass and I will judge you for liking it. 😂

[@katherinealvarez9216]

I'll be honest, my adult version of Batman is a family dramedy with Bruce and his adult children being disasters, and Alfred and Gordon off to the side, drinking whiskey and going "Yeah, we can't retire."

[@arx3516]

I see it more about the crusade of an industrialist to erase poverty and crime from his city and dealing with widespread corruption in the city's institutions, while amoral shareholders try to undermine the moral code of his company in the attempt of getting bigger dividends. It ends up in an epic trial that sees the mayor, the chief of police and many other magnates in Gotham getting sentenced for corruption, abuse of power and tax fraud. We then see Bruce settling down in a rural village in Mexico where he teaches at the local elementary school.

[@helloofthebeach]

Batman, directed by Wes Anderson. I'm not a fan of Anderson but I'd watch the shit out of that.

[@ataruDev]

I would love that

[@homerobarragan]

Gimme a Paul Thomas Anderson Batman

[@jasonblalock4429]

Personally, I'd love to see a Batman movie where he does finally retire due to old age or injury, and how he deals with that. It'd be a slow-burn character drama about a man who simply cannot leave violence behind, and ends up destroying his life because of his inability to move on. Like a cross between No Country For Old Men and The Pledge. But that's not sexy, so I doubt Hollywood would do it.

[@TheDunnDusted]

Curiously, Moore wrote a really good Superman story that was adapted into a Justice League episode, but hasn't been seen enough, 'For the man who has everything'. It's aimed at kids, but it tells a fascinating story about what if the worlds most powerful hero suddenly got everything that made him happy. Not being a world leader or all-powerful being, but a happy life, married, with a kid and Krypton is back. It sounds basic, but it engages kids as to the true duty and responsibility of being a hero. Would you chose to live contentedly in a life where everything is utopic or would you struggle through the pain of your duty and find your own happiness, even if it might never come for you. Its intelligent writing engages a younger audience and gets them to think. It might have partially inspired an episode of Doctor Who, 'Family of Blood' where the Doctor has to choose between duty as a time lord or remaining in blissful ignorance as a human, having a life he has always wanted and was cruelly snatched away before. And you know what's crazy? Moore liked the animated adaption and wanted his name on it. Not V for Vendetta, not Watchmen, this adaptation of his comic book into a children's cartoon got his approval even with all the changes.

[@user-do2ev2hr7h]

I always liked Moore's line at the start of Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?: "This is an imaginary story, aren't they all?"

[@TheZooropaBaby]

also Alan's run of Supreme at Awesome Entertainment

[@daelen.cclark]

@@TheZooropaBaby Very few people remember that.

[@debrachambers1304]

Justice League Unlimited, to be specific

[@projekttaku1]

The best part about that story is Batman's present: a new breed of flower named "The Krypton". In the beginning, its alive and well, albeit artificially made so, just as Superman lives in the fantasy of a living Krypton. However during the battle, where Superman's imaginary Krypton crumbles, the flower is stepped on, paralleling its destruction. And finally, when Batman presents Superman the flower, he apologizes for its death, however Superman says its "better this way", showing how he's come to terms with the fact that a living Krypton was never possible.

[@maxleunig4072]

I find it ironic that Alan Moore and Christopher Nolan have been two of the most inspirational writers when it comes to DC adaptations, considering that neither of them actually give a shit about superheroes.

[@Johnlindsey289]

People took the wrong lessons from them

[@yveltalpoderoso1303]

Alan Moore loves comics but not necessarily superhero ones

[@Seyiall]

What I learned today: "The third Hobbit movie's extended cut is rated R and that's completely pointless."

[@torysaccount5753]

Just like the third Hobbit movie

[@davidjames579]

Now with R Rated Hobbit Action.

[@diamond_dogs]

Those bastards cut the Gandalf sex scene

[@davidjames579]

@@diamond_dogs Loved watching Gandalf blow rings

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Exactly how did they make The Hobbit R rated?

[@Jingles6466]

Ok, now i understand why you said people were gonna get mad.

[@jonfrombuckland_3784]

But I am 100% here for this look at R-Rated Superheros

[@grkpektis]

This is why I love Geoff Johns comics because he takes silly superhero concepts and makes them very dark in interesting ways without destroying everything the characters stands for in continuity, keeps it pg-13 and it never feels mean spirited or purposely edgy. Don't get me wrong his books are not flawless, his continuity is a joke but I still love his stories overall.

[@danidran]

@@grkpektis Can you give an example of those silly concepts?

[@trekjudas]

@@danidran Grown men in skin-tight, brightly colored underwear fighting crime. The entire concept of superheroes is ridiculous. AND I LOVE IT!!

[@grkpektis]

@@danidran The character elongated man used to always shake his nose without hands and say "I smell a mystery". When he came back as a zombie he said it but he had no nose. (it wasn't graphic his nose just wasn't there)

[@florinivan6907]

The thing about making superheroes edgier and grittier is that if you keep it up eventually they stop being heroes. They end up as smaller villains who are only fighting the big villain out of self preservation.There is a limit to how dark a superhero can get before it ends up as just evil.

[@darlalathan6143]

This is partly because lesser cartoonists and scriptwriters than Alan Moore and Frank Miller imitated the gory, dystopian, noir style of "Watchmen" and "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns," but not the Very Special Episode storylines, due to widespread cynicism after Watergate and '70s and '80s action movie influence and competition.

[@EricDMMiller]

You don't need to make the heroes edgier and grittier in order to make their universe darker with more realistic consequences that would result in R ratings.

[@MindEyeMediaVR]

I always thought that increased violence in superhero movies mirrored increased violence in superhero comic books (e.g., Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, etc.), which goes back to the '80s and '90s. That's what I like about Deadpool: he's essentially a parody of this increased level of superhero violence and showing just how absurd it really is, that it is less a sign of sophistication and maturity and more of a sign of a bloodier Wylie E. Coyote.

[@darlalathan6143]

Or imitating Mafia and slasher movies, lol.

[@swordandsheild1]

I think that it can be over the top and unnecessary, sure. But I think darkness, and adult themes can bring the adult's to the theatres and comics just as much as an extra show of violence or killing off characters outright. And I do also think that a lot of the stuff complained about here is stuff that does the source material justice, in giving it legs to stand on up against more adult and self-serious media. Again there's always an over the top limit, but I like a little darkness, a little shock and awe, a little "Did they really just kill ____?" Because it really allows for a change of story telling in a way that keeping everything peachy keen and deus ex machina doesn't in my opinion.

[@belot217]

"bloodier Wylie E. Coyote" is a marvelous phrase.

[@leosklein575]

I hadn't seen that James Gunn quote, but that is the exact thought I had as soon as I saw Deadpool. Sad but true.

[@chrisburns514]

I liked Deadpool because it wasn’t complete garbage lol

[@Bageer1]

"what 13 year olds think adult is" is part of the marketing―they are still targeting 13 year olds. They are also targeting the adults who haven't "grown out of" superheros but actually have grown out of them. I probably was "that" 13 year old too, but as I have grown older I have come to appreciate the sincerity more and less value on the over the top violence (in this context). Spider-Verse is one of the best superhero movies and Shazam is pretty good.

[@FreyaEinde]

You do enjoy earnestness once you get past your hardcore phase and you can't walk back out of the constant crisis of adult life.

[@emperorbailey]

Yeah, there’s a reason the only Oscar-winning superhero movies are Incredibles and Spiderverse.

[@antona.1327]

@@emperorbailey they're not.

[@jupitermelichios392]

i do think there's a space though for sincere but more "adult" (in the purely grimdark sense) movies. the best bits of deadpool were the moments of genuine sincerity, even if there's a lot i really hate about those movies, and that's largely why they worked, and harley quinn works entirely because there's a lot of sincerity. they're not perfect, and i definitely don't think they should be the majority, but i do think a lot of the time the key is more about emotional commitment than whether there's nudity and violence

[@maximeteppe7627]

@@jupitermelichios392 Absolutely. It's just that grimdark is an aesthetic. It can be used in deep psychological, social and philosophical movies, just as well as in juvenile indulgent tales. I suspect however, that the mark of a truly mature take on dark themes is to have enough respect for the subject matter not to sensationalize the misery. In fact, distanciation and innuendo are often more effective than violence porn.

[@RelativelyBest]

Really, I think a major problem with this trend is that the approach to make superhero stories more mature is itself ironically immature. That is to say, making something darker, more cynical and more graphically violent is a naive view of maturity. Like Patrick suggested, it appeals most strongly with adolescents and teenagers who want to be more adult than they are. They mistakenly think this means getting access to "adult stuff" they were denied as children, because that's how kids view adulthood. Telling a mature, serious story is really more about addressing serious subjects: Psychology and mental health, dealing with loss and trauma, ethics and moral philosophy. Stuff like that. It's about taking a step back from gratuitous escapism - _including_ graphic violence and angsty melodrama - and asking the reader to think about the big, complicated questions. That's the sort of stuff young people need to process in order to truly mature. The stories can still be fun and hopeful and idealistic, because the _tone_ isn't really the point. Rather, the story just needs to have something important to say and take that message seriously even if the premise is silly.

[@Johnlindsey289]

What makes Robocop 1987 different in r-rated adult action films?

[@darlalathan6143]

@@Johnlindsey289 He was created as an R-rated movie. It was also more of a cyberpunk political satire about white collar crime and urban street violence, than a superhero origin. However, the gory gangland maiming of Officer Murphy, requiring his cyborgization into Robocop, helped revolutionize the superhero genre with a more plausible sci-fi origin than radiation exposure. His lethal fight scenes with an assault weapon were more plausible than fist fights with uniformed henchmen in '60s Batman.

[@Johnlindsey289]

@@darlalathan6143 And do you think Punisher, Spawn, Watchmen etc work for R-ratings?

[@lexman7179]

All I got from this video was that we need an R rated Gritty movie.

[@teddybear8348]

Yeah me too

[@jodeco]

fight club remake where Tyler splices Gritty pics into movies scaring children even more than his original plan

[@crystalhallgame4965]

Did you catch the image splicing Patrick did just before 9 minutes in? :)

[@jodeco]

@@crystalhallgame4965 I didn’t notice any splicing, but I did suddenly have an unconscious desire to don an orange monster costume and lovingly harass Philadelphians ;)

[@dildonius]

AND THANK YOU. I keep trying to tell people that there's a CONSIDERABLE difference between CHILDREN'S media and FAMILY media. Media made for CHILDREN and media made for THE FAMILY. Children's stuff is made EXCLUSIVELY for children, but FAMILY stuff is made for EVERYBODY. If it's something kids can enjoy but no teenager or adult would be able to legitimately fully enjoy, then it's NOT family media. If it's something teenagers and/or adults can enjoy but NOT something kids can handle or enjoy just as well, then it's NOT family media. Family media is media that EVERYBODY from little kids to preteens to teens to young adults to the middle aged to the elderly can enjoy TO THE SAME DEGREE! And that's where superhero media really needs to be. Not too kiddy and not too adult. And people really need to grasp that. NOT TOO KIDDY! AND NOT TOO ADULT! Batman The Animated Series is the PRIME EXAMPLE of this.

[@zoser595]

I couldn’t explained it better 👏👏👏👏👏

[@Johnlindsey289]

Hey you with the Fritz avatar, how do you feel when animation is treated as something for kids? well Fritz the Cat, Heavy Metal, WIzards, Watership Down, Plague Dogs, Duckman, classic Simpsons (Seasons 1 to 11), Futurama, The Head, South Park with the movie, Spawn TAS, Undone, Bojack Horseman, Fantastic Planet, American Pop, Pink Floyd The Wall, Fire and Ice, Starchaser Legend of Orin, DC animation, Gandahar aka Lightyears, Liquid TV, The Maxx, Aeon Flux, Scanner Darkly, Island of Dogs, Waltz with Bashir, Trippletes of Belleville, Archer, Ninja Scroll, Akira, Perfect Blue, Princess Mononoke and more proved animation wasn't just kids stuff.

[@dildonius]

@@Johnlindsey289 Who said animation HAD to be for kids? That's a weird thing to take away from what I wrote...

[@Tomhyde098]

Those are the MCU films. My little cousin, me as a 31 year old, and my grandpa all enjoy them

[@Johnlindsey289]

@@dildonius It's just some assume animation, puppetry and comics are kids stuff

[@arcadiaberger9204]

You have explained, more clearly than has been explained to me before, exactly *_why_* Alan Moore regretted writing *_Watchmen_* and *_The Killing Joke._*

[@MeatCatCheesyBlaster]

Honestly he just seems like the kind of guy who hates everything

[@arcadiaberger9204]

@@MeatCatCheesyBlaster Nah, he likes a lot of "adult content" (read *_Promethea_* for an "adult superhero" story he has definitely NOT repudiated).

[@drpepperman2765]

​@@MeatCatCheesyBlasterhe hates that the industry misunderstood his art and turned it into this trend that plagues superhero media to this day. Can't blame the guy

[@metaturnal]

To me it is so weird how prude American cinema is, while being full of violence. Like sex (a very normal and integral part of our existence) is more inappropriate for an often young audience than the thousands of deaths we all probably saw on screen.

[@theolegendarywolfbrookes8684]

you're spot on. sex and nudity in particular are two very natural and normal aspects of our lives. yet it's treated with such a hush hush attitude it makes it seem inappropriate. violence on the other hand is not natural. it is a response or action in what often times is a live or death situation, "flight or fight". violence should be the target if they want to censor things (not supporting censorship btw), and not nudity/sex or the topic in of itself.

[@metaturnal]

@@theolegendarywolfbrookes8684 Absolutely, my point was not to start censoring violence in media instead, it's just absurd that such a natural thing would be censored over violence.

[@truffeltroll6668]

Love how the sex scenes become more unrealistic when the movies become more "realistic" At this point it's more believable that gritty directors have sewn people in half than that they ever had sex in their life

[@seanasdfghjkl6437]

Patrick, for god's sake it's midnight in the UK. I can't be watching a 40 minute video now. Nor do I want to wait until the morning.

[@folarinosibodu]

He's a very wordy guy

[@fisherjam5182]

Oh shit it's midnight

[@ricardodelsilva3891]

I've never related more to a youtube comment

[@allyssaswain2394]

It's always the middle of the night somewhere.

[@agrumpymonkey5800]

For some reason I read that in Patrick’s mom’s voice 😅

[@uneek35]

The sigh of relief I made when you revealed you weren't going to do that gravelly voice the whole video.

[@nms72]

The instant I thought "He's not gonna do that the whole video, is he?" he did the coughing bit. Well played, sir.

[@santos8468]

I wish he hadn’t done the gravelly voice at all, because it was pretty obvious to me that at some point he was going to start coughing and then start talking normally.

[@uneek35]

@@santos8468 I don't know. I've seen some videos commit to very terrible bits.

[@Patrick-jj5nh]

you mean jake? clearly wasnt patrick himself doing the voice

[@blokey8]

@@uneek35 Is it... Dave the Agent?

[@thebaccathatchews]

That's what I've always thought: media producers took the wrong lessons from Watchmen and DKR. Instead of being thoughtful about the nature of storytelling, they went grim-and-gritty for the sake of being grim-and-gritty. Plus, I'm glad Charl trusted you enough to host the show without him.😉

[@blokey8]

It's all the more frustrating in the case of the Nolan films when you realise that Hollywood tried to ape the surface, it didn't work and then they ditched it, whilst missing the opportunity to learn from the storytelling. I've seen several series closers in the last few years which could've benefitted from the lessons of those films.

[@therealrustyspork]

It's like, this division between the adult and kids versions happening simultaneously is enforcing an artificial binary between child and adult to more easily group people into categories of consumers

[@davidbjacobs3598]

Just wanna add that this is low-key the best explanation of why Watchmen's grid layout works so well. As a big fan of that book, I've occasionally pondered why they went with the most simplistic page layout, and I think your super-brief interpretation here just nails it so perfectly. I feel dumb for not figuring that out before.

[@debrachambers1304]

Alan Moore has explicitly explained it in interviews before. It's intentionally simple and makes it easier for him to describe the look of a page in a script. There's a lot of weird, complex stuff going on in Watchmen and the 9 panel grid allows the panel shapes to disappear in your mind. But they can still show off a lot of storytelling techniques within that grid. Also, I personally like the geometric, clockwork like feeling of the composition, which reflects how the story feels to me.

[@pacup]

@@debrachambers1304 "clock work like feeling" in watchmen. I see what you did there

[@billybarnell1996]

It’s also a loving homage to Steve Ditko, who created many of the original Charlton characters the Watchmen cast were based on and typically favoured using 9 panel page grids when drawing his comics.

[@jares317]

Patrick (H) Willems: 2:25 KZbin: So you have chosen... demonetization

[@chrisb1809]

I completely agree with Jerry Conway. I took my nephew to a comics store a several years ago, asked what would be appropriate for a 8-11 year old audience. They had 2 options, and nothing from any of the major characters that he was interested in.

[@galactic85]

If you are still looking for something for him go track down the first complete collections of Spider-girl by Tom Defalco. Collections of it were in my elementary school library when I was a kid and they helped get me (an 8 hear old straight boy) into comics. Marvel just started reprinting it over the last 5 years. Some of it is a little dated but there is a lot that modern comics could learn from it.

[@randommonkey4900]

Just give him a book he’ll be fine if he’s reading he’s reading

[@petitio_principii]

One of the best super-hero movies to this day is Rocketeer. There, I said it.

[@Matter-Dark]

That movie is so underrated.

[@lawrencecalablaster568]

Yess

[@californiumblog]

Go get em, kid!

[@anthonycorcino6700]

Has its moments but it's great

[@JohnSmith-mu5qh]

Completely right

[@mcfarenashwin1990]

The thing that Conway says kind of makes me think about cartoons like ATLA and Gravity Falls. Just because they are silly and catered towards kids doesn't mean they are deserving of any less respect. There is a timeless classicism to those stories. The way they approach mature themes through the eyes and inherent optimism of kids is spellbinding and deserves a more prominent place

[@ataruDev]

It's kind of the opposite for me. I thought about The Adventure Zone, a show that is definitely for adults, but is stull fundamentally fun, charming, and absurd. Simultaneously a story about the power of love and friendship and 4 idiots playing D&D until they cried

[@Dilmahkana]

Nice, yea! To me, it gave insight into what's happened with Star Wars too...

[@jpd44]

'Over the Garden Wall' also comes to mind.

[@superleviathan]

That's because those shows can be enjoyed by adults in the same way that dog food can technically be eaten by humans. Compare the writing of those shows to live-action ones actually written for adults; The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire, Orange is the New Black, Man in the High Castle, and so many others. Not even close.

[@Darthvader468]

@@superleviathan Looks like someone didn't get the point

[@MasterMemo]

I like how the new DuckTales has a ton of references that are for fans of the original, but it's still firmly a kids' show. Feels like they found a way to pander nostalgia while still making something new (as a reboot could be) and fresh thing.

[@Maitch3000]

Yeah, I was a kid when the DuckTales happened and the new DuckTales rules, but they still target the same age demographics.

[@mike-cc3dd]

Similar to cobra kai.

[@greysnake2903]

.

[@dustinosborn4068]

R rated DuckTales could be a pretty cool show.

[@harrylane4]

@@mike-cc3dd this is actually totally right now that I think about it. CK absolutely takes a few swings for a mid-to-late-teens demographic, despite the language and focus on older characters and the emotions that come with reaching middle-age.

[@mylamename14]

I think Doom Patrol on HBO treads this line beautifully. Adult themes and language, but still enough meta humor, action, and sincerity to hold it all together.

[@LuffyBlack]

I need to watch more of that, Doom Patrol's my favorite superhero team

[@harrylane4]

Peacemaker hits the same line as well. It’s violent, gory, graphic, but completely true to itself and cares about its characters and their emotions.

[@androssteague]

24:10 Homelander's whole look is even patterned after Miracle man.

[@archibaldmoore4514]

Garth ennis, the writer of the boys, hates superhero comics btw.

[@darlalathan6143]

@@archibaldmoore4514 Aha! That explains a lot of comics writers who pen deconstructions in Dark Age and Modern Age comics and movies.

[@marlowekaye6089]

This video says so much good stuff. You get an interview with Conway (holy crap!), you reframe the debate to what it should be (just because the stuff we love is for kids doesn't make it any less great), and you draw attention to the absolute masterpiece that is Miracleman. Any one of those would have made a great video. Thanks for this one.

[@claudegarmon2958]

yeah. thanks for the miracleman shout out as yer fer instance

[@neurotransmissions]

Oh thank god you got Jerry Conway. I thought you were gonna interview Rob Liefeld.

[@Redrally]

No one wants an interview with Rob 'Rebel without a clue' Liefeld =_=

[@GoneFishingAmalgam]

You guys are gonna be sorry when the Youngblood movie comes out and blows away box office records!

[@SupaCoopa999]

@@GoneFishingAmalgam lmao?

[@AcyraxJ]

I’m sure Pat has standards

[@patrickhwillems]

I actually interviewed Rob for a video several years ago. He's awesome

[@waywardmind]

I think the idea that adults want comic movies to be R-rated for the violence element of the rating obscures or misses what's really happening, pyschologically: Even if it's true that adult comics fans want more violence, what they want that violence for is *legitimacy*. Well, the veneer or illusion of legitimacy. They don't want to go see their favourite comic book character in a PG movie (Super-Man) or, at its "more extreme" end, PG-13 (Batman), which are the dials those characters throughout their history are basically set to (just like you said). But there's a particular kind of adult male fan who can't feel secure going to watch a PG movie and then rave about it and the character to their friends and the world at large. That would make them look childish (ironically); they need it to be adjusted up to an R rating so they can breathe easily knowing that the movie recognizes that they're adults. "After all, R-rated movies are for adults! Phew." Great video, Patrick! (I'm kinda going through your back catalogue, and it's been an interesting and fun ride.)

[@eventua8474]

The absurdity of their fears is that PG-13 comic book superheroes have become so mainstream that if adults watch and enjoy them... *literally no one cares*. They're so desperate for this veneer of maturity that only they seem to actually buy into?! It'd be hilarious if that sense of entitlement wasn't so poisonous to the way they interact with people.

[@Johnlindsey289]

@@eventua8474 What about Robocop?

[@tatehildyard5332]

Something else I’ve been thinking about in this regard is that I don’t actually think these movies labeled as “for adults” are actually for adults. I’d argue their target audience is smaller, but much more vocal, teenage boys (particularly nerdy teenage boys). And what do teenage boys want more than anything but won’t fully admit? Validation, they want to feel like they’re the smartest, most sophisticated and precocious kid in the room…but doing that requires a lot of work and the risk of not being able to meet the new high bar intellectually. These “adult” adaptations let them feel like they’re being intellectually challenged and elevated, but without having to do the work or take the risks

[@reallytho1943]

I agree that it is that but I also think they like to see the charectors who are adults the cursing , the mature themes the go behind being hunted , the extra crazy violence isn't about being gruesome for being gresuom it's the fact these larger then life charectors like Superman a god like being if he fought in a city it would be demolished and there would be casualties it's a realistic take on the charectors the adults can have for themselves while other mediums are made targeted at children

[@Courier_333]

I did not want venom 2 to have violence or be rated R because I wanted it be prestige. I was happy with the movie we got but blood and gore would have improved the movie 100% Like Tarantino movies have glorified violence because it's fun, that's all it needs to be

[@p0tap0s]

"See, a strange thing has happened in comics today. Years ago, when we first started Marvel the age of the readership was about... they'd start with 6 and go up to 12 or 14 or so. And over the years, as we tried to write more intelligent comics and get better vocabularies and concentrate on characterization and on plotting, the age of the readership rose. In fact, after a while, we had as many college readers as young readers. But now, strangely enough, there aren't as many young readers for these comics, which are thought of as children's literature as there are older readers. And these darker books that we have now seem to be very appealing to the older readers, I personally think we're gonna have to start lightening the books a little, or doing books that are lighter so we don't lose too many of our younger readers" Stan Lee (RIP) from the first Blade extras

[@EdKauffmann]

"the tail and not the dog" I am 100% stealing that expression, that's perfect

[@AnuAnoop07]

Don't read my mind Ed Kauffmann .. Coughman ?

[@antoniobarrios5333]

6:47 He really put Gritty there. For just a frame, but I saw him. Edit: He keeps bringing him up when he says gritty. Neat.

[@justingarner7163]

Gritty shows up twice in the first two minutes. When she says gritty and when Pat says gritty over the phone

[@CrapE_DM]

Who/what is Gritty?

[@justingarner7163]

@@CrapE_DM The mascot for the Philadelphia flyers hockey team

[@jakeb6703]

1:41

[@dwc1964]

@@jakeb6703 That was the first one I noticed, and came down to the comments for - but when I saw @Justin Garner above I backed up and saw the first one at 1:34 - I wonder how many there are in total, and where they all are...

[@iKhanKing]

I feel like something you miss, or maybe it just got left on the cutting room floor, is that a lot of the "good" modern adaptations of these heroes benefit from comics skewing older over time. The first comics weren't just child appropriate, in the modern context, their stories have limited entertainment value to all audiences but kids, the equivalent of Illumination Entertainment movies. Batman and Superman's universes didn't stand out all that much. It was through skewing a little bit older that we were able to a distinct utopia vs. dystopia dichotomy between Metropolis and Gotham. We were able to ask interesting questions about the philosophical implications of a perfect alien coming down to earth and being taught rural American values. We were able to ask interesting questions about what happens in a city that fails to care about it's people or it's criminals. And the results didn't need to be violent or creepy. The results were things the DCAU and Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy. Superman's arc across the DCAU is probably one of the best animated portrayals of the character in history, where Superman starts with ideals, has his spirit broken by Darkseid, drifts into autocracy, before contextualizing his power in a new way ("Breaking a toothpick" scene). Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy beautifully marries Nolan's approach of asking broad philosophical questions with a fun comic book movie. The best DCEU movies, Wonder Woman and Shazam, do the same thing. All of these embrace the inherent silliness of superheroes as power fantasy and action heroes, but also uses that storytelling format to offer something a little bit more to older readers, and I truly appreciate the older slant for that. I don't really have a lot of patience for lazy kids stories (again, see Illumination Entertainment), because they are low effort, fail to engage multiple generations simultaneously, and fail to have a lasting impact on their own.

[@phostetlerart]

Gotta love that Alan Moore actually backed up his words after leaving DC with the ABC line: a bunch of all-ages friendly superheroes with names like Splash Brannigan, Tom Strong, and Irma Geddon. There was also stuff for mature audiences, but it was mature in terms of the ideas they introduced, like tantric sex and kabbala in Promethea, or the increasingly complex literary and pop culture critique of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Mature comics that are also kid-friendly can be done if adults are willing to accept a little winking silliness, and kids are willing to push through a few pages about boring stuff, like two people just talking without attempting to murder each other.

[@thedescribers]

As a Philadelphian, I heartily approve of this subliminal content.

[@dwc1964]

Your beloved city and its strange (so very strange) mascot are the undeniable winners of 2020

[@jimmyboyle3543]

Same here! lol

[@EricChoiniere]

Huh? What subliminal content? :o Btw I have this weird sudden desire to go watch hockey

[@allstarme-no8qb]

As a fellow Philadelphian, I agree

[@thedapperdolphin1590]

As a Pittsburgher and a Pen’s fan, I am filled with a primordial rage

[@lukesmith1818]

Superman red son is an example of trying different things whilst maintaining the ethos of superman. Really good

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

Red Son does a handful of interesting things but is deeply hamstrung by how little effort the writers put into understanding communism, the bolshevik movement and why it was supported by the people of the USSR even as it was going wrong. Why write a story about a Soviet Kal-El if you're just going to make it pro-US, pro-capitalist propaganda?

[@Kenshiro3rd]

@@TheEvilCheesecake one could argue you just answered your own question.

[@samw6414]

@@TheEvilCheesecake while superman certainly represents hope and justice and all that good stuff he is still a symbol of american exceptionalism and western chauvinism. asking for that to be ignored and for a totally unbiased portrayal of the USSR is kinda asking for a lot, especially from warner brothers lol

[@timothymclean]

I'm gonna bring up one of my favorite "dark superhero" stories, the web serial Worm. It's quite aware of the nature of superhero stories as escapist fantasy-hell, the protagonist becomes a superhero specifically to escape her shitty normal life. Its worldbuilding is intricate, explaining why superpowered people wear masks, fight crime, and so on without being obnoxious or stupid about it. But it's more focused on the effects that this sort of world has. What kind of world needs superhumans to deliver violent solutions for its problems? What kind of people would it create? And what stories can such a world tell? Worm's protagonist lives in a violent world, one that's being torn apart bit by bit. As her city falls further into violence, she works to keep it together. Worm shows the destructive nature of violence and power...while also saying that we can resist it and rebuild what was lost. It's hard to explain without getting into spoilers (and there are _layers_ of spoilers-Worm is really long), so I won't try. Aside from noting that this whole "rebuilding stuff destroyed by violence and the abuse of power" thing seems like a theme in Wildbow's work. Worm has a lot more going on than superhero re/deconstruction; the genre stuff is just what's most relevant to this comment section.

[@luisgapro]

Worm is spectacular!

[@trialblazer705]

Worm is the G.O.A.T

[@daelen.cclark]

I’ll have to look into it sometime.

[@lad9732]

I love that the summary for this video is "Nostalgia and Gore go together because of spectacle as opposed to substance. Go read a book, you entitled nerd." And I agree.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Can Nostalgia and Gore can come in a form of substance though?

[@daelen.cclark]

⁠@@IkeOkerekeNews You need a good balance between pointless indulgence, and a real substance to it. Moderation and a good editor are a good call.

[@galactic85]

This video came at a perfect time. I've been thinking about this a lot this week. The ironic thing is I think that sometimes the adaptations targeted more towards kids wound up being more thoughtful and mature than a lot of the superhero movies aimed at adults. Justice League Unlimited had a whole story line about the characters having to reflect about whether they are becoming authoritarians. It deals with the whole subject in a much more thoughtful way than Batman v Superman did.

[@prankhan3097]

I agree. Tbh a lot of media made for kids can have surprisingly nuanced themes or ideas. I'm not sure if it's the pandering to nostalgia or a 30-year-olds longing for escapism that makes some of these adult-oriented adaptations feel lacking.

[@snakesnoteyes]

The daughter of Clayface episode of the Batman animated series is still absolutely devastating

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

The limitations require well-measured storytelling and thoughtfulness as to depiction of the subject matter. When everything’s under a microscope, it necessitates greater care.

[@lacrartezorok4975]

Joe Casey, one of the creators of Ben 10, once said that many superhero books for adults were as childish as the ones for kids, but with nudity and profanity. And adult content was more about it's themes and complexity, not about boobs, gore and bad words. Of course he said this on the TPB of a comic book with boobs, gore and bad words, but about corporate culture, and batteries that never ran out of power.

[@michaelavolio]

@@prankhan3097 Some of it is just the artistry and maturity of those involved in creating them. The DC cartoons done by the people who made Batman: The Animated Series are always going to be more interesting and have more depth than movies by Snyder or other Hollywood hacks, regardless of their intended audiences.

[@1080TJ]

33:55 THIS! I think the problem with so many of the people demanding R-rated superhero movies is that they're the kind of people who only see a handful of movies a year, with basically all of them being superhero movies and other blockbusters. They don't pay attention to the indies so they feel like part of a niche that isn't being catered to, even though there's plenty of quality adult oriented content right there. That's why so many people saw Joker as this great, revolutionary thing instead of a decent Scorsese pastiche held up almost entirely by an impressive central performance.

[@blokey8]

It's also telling when you get the inevitable backlash against Affleck being cast as Batman and people are acting like Pearl Harbour, Daredevil or maybe Gigli was the last thing he did. Or that they've ignored how Robert Pattinson has been clear of Twilight (another series that wasn't made for this crowd anyway) for almost a decade and had just been cast in Tenet by Christopher Nolan. Like, to not be aware of anything R-Patz has done in that time or that Affleck had directed three well-received films must take a really narrow approach to culture.

[@DanielshakespeareDanze1]

@@blokey8 Affleck was cast as Batman but I get your point.

[@blokey8]

@@DanielshakespeareDanze1 oops

[@derek96720]

There's a lot of projection in this opinion.

[@socratesmmxii]

I think it's fascinating how this parallels with the changes happening in the video game industry, where many game creators who are growing older are trying to tell more emotionally mature stories (God of War being a primary example)

[@TheBurkissWay]

Deconstruction has its place, but sometimes it feels like there's too much Go Set A Watchman and not enough To Kill A Mockingbird.

[@MayorOfEarth79]

This is a conversation I'm starting to have every week in geeky circles. Geek: "Why can't comic book movies be REAL man? Why are they so corporate and trendy? Why can't they just do new ideas and be really wild and experimental? I can't stand MCU or DCEU anymore!" Me: "How about you watch something other than a comic book movie? Geek: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!"

[@youmadornahhh]

So pretentious lol

[@derek96720]

Why does it have to be one or the other?

[@guyr3618]

Sometimes it's better to just turn off Logan and put on some Godfather.

[@MPfist0]

@@derek96720 it's not about having it to be "one way or the other". What people want to see is actually out there, and it's very good, just not as a superhero film.

[@MayorOfEarth79]

@@MPfist0 100%. It's not one without the other. Patrick covers a myriad of film genres. Just people who lock themselves in genre (and are unhappy with it) usually tend to hurt themselves but not exploring the medium at all. See that dude who thought the Joker was the only movie about mental illness and class struggle that the Oscars have covered.

[@WaketheFallen131]

“Comic books were always for adults!” “Not true. This one is false. We made this one up. It’s a complete fabrication.”

[@jonsmith9838]

they weren't always for adults but some of the pre comic codes one could get dark. and the ones from 70's upward get get dark or more adult. namely iron man, daredevil, batman, horror comics, punishet, blade, conan, greenarrow/green lantern.

[@ingonyama70]

I needed Jonathan Frakes' voice in my head tonight, thank you ^_^

[@katherinealvarez9216]

I mean, there were comics like romance, mystery and horror that adults could read but yeah, a lot of that market had kids in mind. The characters, stories and ads were design for kids.

[@tylermane77]

Patrick using strawmen yet again. Nobody but the most silly of pretentious nerds say this. But yes, there were a lot of adult oriented comics back in the day. They just weren't mainstream.

[@valenluca3253]

L

[@PhantomLantern2814]

I’ve tried to argue why The Batman doesn’t need to be rated R ever since the first look was revealed. Now that it’s released, I can 100% say that absolutely nothing would have been improved by making it more violent or vulgar. And people that act like it’s not suitable for kids are either too fragile to handle darker themes or too blind to see the excellent story being told.

[@warknightxl2167]

Oh and fun fact: Having mature themes in cartoons, live action shows or movies is not what makes a content or franchise automatically well-written or successful and making something exclusively for adults or teens is not a sign that the content is somehow going to be any good, because of course it doesn't. Yet most adults and some teens can't accept that simple fact, they act like having maturity/dark themes in movies or shows is somehow quote on quote "real quality".

[@nielsfrederiksen6636]

Yes and no. As with your Batman example, I personally feel that there are some Batman stories you simply cant tell within a PG13 rating. Arkham Knight is a perfect example of this. How would you convey Joker shoting Barbara and paralyzing her or Joker literally torturing Jason Todd for months without a mature rating? If you reduce the impact of these moments, you also lose the consequences of these actions. If Jason survives or Barbara quickly recovers, youre now telling a very different story. Not EVERY Batman story should be R or M rated, but some simply dont work in a PG13 setting.

[@drpepperman2765]

​@@nielsfrederiksen6636 the video literally mentioned how Robin was tortured by the Joker in the Batman Beyond film that was kid friendly, and the rating didn't affect how impactful that moment was. How do you do the killing joke without being Rated R? Simple, Joker walks in, gunshot, hard cut to black and now Jim's walking in on his daughter lying unconscious on the floor with a Joker playing card. When Joker shows Jim the photos, focus purely on Jim's face and the fury and frustration he's feeling at being so powerless to save the one person who matters most to him. Violence isn't maturity, One Piece is still one of the most emotionally mature series I've ever watched and that was made for children. Kid's shows can be mature and R-rated films aren't automatically more 'adult' it's all about the actual content of the story and themes being explored

[@nielsfrederiksen6636]

@@drpepperman2765 Agree to disagree. You're right that R rating doesnt mean the story is more adult. But that's not what I ever argued anyway. Your comment pretty much confirmed what I wrote earlier. If you water it down, it looses it's impact. Your exampels confirm that. Jim looking at a few pictures we dont see doesnt do anything for me. On the flip side, Jason with the crowbar is an iconic and brutal moment in Batman history. It stuck around because of it's impact. Literally nothing in The Return of the Joker is as iconic. Sure, it's a great movie, but it didn't affect Batman lore in general at nearly the same level as things like Death in the Family or The Killing Joke.

[@drpepperman2765]

@@nielsfrederiksen6636 you can say it has no impact for you, but the needless brutality of the killing joke does nothing for me. On the opposite side of that coin. It just feels needlessly cruel and pointless, especially in a medium that is generally known to be kid oriented. It just felt like it was written by an edgy 13-year-old who was trying to prove to his parents that "no, it's actually cool that I'm into Batman I swear!" There is the idea that what you don't see is often far more horrifying than what you do. That's why a lot of classic horror monsters aren't really in their movies that much, that's why the xenomorph is shrouded in darkness for the majority of the first alien movie. Our imaginations can be far more horrifying than anything. The people over in a Hollywood CG studio can cook up. In that same vein, by just showing how horrified Jim is at what the Joker did to his daughter without us the audience even seeing it. So we know for sure how bad, is terrifying and so deeply unnerving cuz this is the Joker we're talking about. If we don't see what he did for a fact, he could have done literally anything you're thinking of right now and it would make just as much sense

[@Dracosfire14]

The part about all this that most annoys me is the black and white mentality that superheroes need to be goofy kid's stuff or dark and adult when comics basically invented the concept of having mutually exclusive versions of the same characters existing simultaneously. We can have both, because both are valid ways to make excellent stories for anybody. You're allowed to have your preference, but that doesn't mean the versions that don't comply aren't allowed to exist. Love what you love, and let others love as they will.

[@bmanpictures]

Exactly!

[@sunsetman22]

100% on point. just goes to show how creatively bankrupt people are nowadays. they want more of the same. case and point: *why can't you be more like Marvel!??* it's soul draining to sit through film youtube and encounter the exact same idea regurgitated over and over again, while the people who unironically believe it clap like seals.

[@Dracosfire14]

@Kureiton You're absolutely right. There's a place for dark and and a place for fun. And scores of people like me who will watch basically all of it

[@jalapenoofjustice4682]

27:05 I think it's worth pointing out that Watchmen was originally going to be about charlton comics characters, but DC wouldn't allow it because it would make the characters unusable in the future.

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

Yet they made Injustice

[@ElRook]

That said... I don’t think anyone really cared about the Charlton Comics characters either. It’s one thing to make and R-rated Batman, but no one in the 80’s would care about Blue Beetle much.

[@galactic85]

@@wrestlinganime4life288 I mean. The advantage of the first injustice game was that it was clearly an elseworlds story. The main dc heroes we know and love literally come to this alternate world where superman and everyone have gone bad and help fight to stop them. It's very clearly a "gee this world is screwed up. Thank God the main dc heroes aren't like this!" Story. Problem is that people started to find the injustice world more interesting and DC started marketing it like crazy.

[@gabbar51ngh]

@@wrestlinganime4life288 It was made by videogame developers. Comics was sanctioned due to it's popularity. Still doesn't come close to "The Boys". Which was also intended for justice league but rejected. Watchmen using new Characters was Better in a way.

[@roneteus]

So essentially we're like Andy in Toy Story, but we don't want to give away our toys?

[@blokey8]

In Zack Snyder's version, he stamps the little girl's head in and takes her toys for himself. I feel dirty for even typing this.

[@nickbell8353]

More like Al, in that we not only want to keep our toys, but we want to keep them in glass containers so that no one else can touch them and "ruin" them.

[@dustinp120]

My wife has 2 toys named buzz and woody 😉

[@roneteus]

Toy Story After Dark

[@blokey8]

@@nickbell8353 Magnifique. I just love the idea of certain edgelord types' avatar being a pudgy man dressed as a chicken.

[@Icepick614]

I still hold the opinion that Venom doesn't need to be rated R considering most of his comics are PG13 at most. Not to say there aren't any violent comics but imo his best stories all fit into PG13 range

[@renaigh]

Argh-Rated Movies don't have enough Pirates.

[@saintdane05]

...Did you intentionally film in Hell's Kitchen, Daredevil's hangout, specifically to show off how gentrified and Not Threatening it became? Kudos if so.

[@The11thEvilEx]

Also, Adam West Batman is wonderful and people don't give it enough credit.

[@BostonMBrand]

Adam West’s legacy is so undermined in the Batman fandom. Without West, there would be no Tim Burton, no animated series, no Christopher Nolan, etc. I know everyone (including myself) loves Batman’s dark, noir style, but West’s version, though silly and campy holds merit within the Batman Mythos. It’s definitely better than the dark, murderous take we got in the Snyder films.

[@arslanakakamina]

All of them are great, dark or light, every year one group tries gatekeep the other

[@tylermane77]

Oh please. Adam West Batman has a huge following. The days of it being seen as an embarrassment are long, long gone.

[@ExeErdna]

Adam West is supposed to be Silver Age Batman with all the madness yet none of the darkness. There's a whole reason why BVS should have NEVER been a movie because it doesn't work. A lot of comic stories do not work in a solo movie format. Like how "The Dark Phoenix" failed TWICE sometimes one-off stories work and other times they suck. Like how Batman Forever IMO was a perfect mix of Adam West jank and expected 90's edge. B&R was 100% an Adam West homage can't tell me otherwise.

[@MrTenInHell]

@@BostonMBrand BVS would have worked if they didn’t try to catch up with Marvel with 2 films. Snyder doesn’t understand Superman or Batman. His Batman would have worked if he established it in a solo movie more subtly. His Superman would never work though. I think Snyder likes Frank Miller too much without being good enough storyteller. Like does he understand why DKR works.

[@startrekmike]

So there is a lot in this video I agree with in spirit but there is also a lot that I think kinda misses the larger picture. When comics started really moving more into violence, darker themes, and even sexual content, it was very much part of a sort of "liberation movement" where suddenly the Comics Code Authority didn't really have a lot of control and they were finally allowed to actually write stories that broke the rather absurd and incredibly rigid rules that the Comics Code Authority label imposed. This is a important thing to consider. If you look at comics that were written during the height of the Comics Code Authority years, you can tell that the writers were basically not allowed to do much of anything with any real substance. This is part of the reason why so many of those older comics focused on science fiction style stories about aliens and otherworldly beings. They simply were not allowed to tell other kinds of stories. When I started reading comics as a kid, it was pretty much at the height of the 80's/early 90's push away from that old set of standards. The increase in gritty violence wasn't the only thing that happened. We also saw a increase in more whimsical, philosophical, and even surreal and abstract comics that wouldn't really have any real appeal to children but did give the long-time comics fans who were now adults something with a bit more to chew on. Some of those comics were violent. Some of those comics tackled difficult, uncomfortable topics. There is another thing to consider. If we are being honest, a big chunk of modern comic book writers are coming from that post-80's comic scene. They are the ones that either already worked in the business at that time or were avid readers of those 80's and early 90's books. That is their starting point creatively and it makes sense that they would pick up where those 80's and 90's comics left off. It might not be to everyone's taste and it might not always result in interesting, thoughtful reading but it is what it is and that makes sense when you really think about it. I do admit that I find the somewhat arbitrary, knee-jerk negative reaction towards 'The Joker' film a bit unfortunate. The idea that it should be lighter, more child friendly fare just because it is attached to Batman comics feels shortsighted at best and stifling at worst. 'The Joker' was a solid movie that (despite some hand-wringing by the press) managed to make a serious, violent comic book film that also has a lot of important things to say. It is difficult for me to watch and makes me feel terrible but I admire it for that. I think it has a strong (if unpleasantly portrayed) message that unfortunately got lost in the knee-jerk controversy. One last thing that is perhaps worth thinking about as well. For a very, very long time, comic books were pretty much a part of being a kid. Going from the 30's all the way to the 90's, comic books were just a thing that kids almost automatically gravitated towards because it was expected. It was just part of children's culture in a way. When we start getting into the era of small children with smart phones, social media addiction, and even some troubling addictions to specific (rather manipulative) video games, it isn't hard to see why comic book shops are struggling. It isn't hard to see why the children's market has become a secondary focus for comic book publishers. Those publishers have to sell books and in order to do so, they need to target the market that still goes out of their way to buy them.

[@YetiCoolBrother]

Best comment

[@darlalathan6143]

A good "devil's advocate" answer!

[@tayshondeeznuts1921]

the point on how the changing of childrens culture is so spot on I didn't even think about that!

[@nickc6621]

I have held the believe for years that if Darwyn Cookes New Frontier was held to the same standard as Watchmen, Year one or DKR by WB the DCU would of been 20 times more watchable.

[@michaelterrell5061]

I literally couldn’t agree more.

[@egm100]

i loved the video, but wished you put the auto-subtitles mode avalible - this help me understand better what you're saying (i have a hearing problem and i am also Brazilian, so is much easier to hear) please like this, so Pat can read it.

[@1026JMS]

@@georgepeterjoubert7482 I totally agree with you: all videos should have subtitles.

[@invisiblegrif42]

I think not enough people realize that you can absolutely do dark and gritty/ intense stories within a pg-13 framework. Like Patrick mentioned B:TAS has plenty of very dark stories and the torture scene in Batman Beyond is incredibly dark. But even more than that, The Dark Knight is incredibly self- serious, grim, philosophical, and violent in a more intense/ grounded way, and was able to do that all in a pg-13 framework. I also think another good way to have more adult theming with "new" characters is to go the Doom Patrol TV show route. Technically Doom Patrol are all established vharacters who have been around aa long as the X-men. But they're like D-listers who nobody outside of established (usually older) fans have heard of aside from Cyborg, and that lets them do a similar thing as Watchmen and The Boys in being R- rated and dark without forcing superhero icons to be gritty.

[@user-do2ev2hr7h]

You can, to a point. I don't know that you could do something like Dredd (for example) properly in a PG-13 framework. Part of the reason a film like that works is because it captures a certain amount of brutal, graphic violence that is baked in to the source material.

[@stephenrynerson5530]

In re TDK, one of the things I really admire about Christopher Nolan is his ability to deliver intense movies (TDK, Dunkirk, etc.) at a PG-13 rating.

[@1986BNick]

Ugh, my family was kind of weird when it came to tolerating sexual matter stuff in movies as opposed to anything with R-rated violence. I didn't get to see the first Die Hard movie and Boys In The Hood until I was actually around 11 years old. So? Yeah. I can see why mature-rated superheroes can be quite a unique take in entertainment.

[@BostonMBrand]

After the first trailer for Matt Reeves’ Batman dropped, I heard tons of people including friends and family of mine exclaiming how excited they were to see Batman kill goons since he beat the shit out someone at the end of the trailer. While the question on whether Batman kills people in the movie remains unanswered, I doubt Reeves will go down that route considering his work, his source material and his general opinions on the characters. I think the ending was just a taste of the films action, which I think might be more reminiscent of the Arkham series; more brutal and realistic but I doubt Batman will kill people.

[@comixproviderftw_02]

Batman beating people to near death is worse than just killing them in itself.

[@AntonWongVideo]

3:52 If people comment saying that Patrick isn't a true fan who doesn't know the source material, THEY'RE the fake fans for not knowing that Pat used to make "monthly favorite" videos talking about his fav comics of the month and another video about how to get into reading comics

[@bodhimind108]

What got me into watching Patrick was a video about x-men movies. I knew that I liked the guy when he said something about not having a good Storm in the movies and not having a team with her as the leader. I've totally given up on ever seeing that on screen.

[@Michaelgabriel95]

Right. One of the first videos i saw of his was recommendations for comics to get into

[@MrGittz]

So here’s a point I want to make. The first Men in Black movie is rated PG-13. It features a sequence where a characters head is blown apart, which then regenerates. The “blood” of the character is green, so therefore it’s acceptable to be PG-13. Now if that blood of that character was a different colour, red for example, all of a sudden that PG-13 turns into a very hardcore R & the entire history of the Men in Black franchise is different. Because of the colour red. The point shouldn’t about R ratings, the point should be about gritty, depressing, colourless superhero films. Studios are terrified of the “C” word. What’s the “C” word? “Corny”. Studios are terrified of their movie being labeled corny, earnest or sentimental. I enjoy “Man of Steel” but is that what a Superman movie should be? No. It’s not “R” rated, but it’s grim, depressing and joyless. So you should be focusing less on the ratings and more on the actual aesthetic choices. I remember people complaining that The Dark Knight should’ve been rated R. But there’s not a drop of blood in the entire film. Or Spider-Man 2. Spider-Man 2 features a horror sequence more intense than anything in Deadpool or Logan. That’s a PG-13 film and the sequence is the operating room where Doc Ock murders an entire room full of nurses and doctors. PG-13. But I love that sequence! But no way is it meant for kids. Tone is the magic word. Not ratings. Batman should be dark & moody, sure. But Superman? Not so much.

[@Yo_DynamoJoe]

Your comment is more on point and rational than this entire "commentary." This guy doesn't see his adamance that "silly superheroes" must be for all ages, *all the time* is an expression of his own insecurity.

[@TheMelMan]

Agreed completely. The cry for an R Rating has always rubbed me the wrong way cause it will always result in "childish" gratuitous violence, unnecessary f-bombs or the depressionfest that is the Snyderverse (whose rating isn't R but they were clearly ashamed of the colourful source material). It's like the R rating comes before the script when actually the script should inform the rating.

[@itayeldad3317]

I read somewhere that the dark knight toned down any thing other things in it that were not censor friendly so it could make a lot of violence without being R. Characters may hold glasses filled with alcohol never drink it (I think joker takes a shot and post-explotion two face too, but that's it). And theres a love triangle but only one kiss

[@helloofthebeach]

As he said, the ratings system is all kind of fucked up. There's a reasonable case to be made for The Dark Knight to be rated R (and a reasonable case for it not to be), meanwhile Serious Dramas will make sure to include two f bombs to get the R rating because it's almost a prerequisite for Oscar consideration. When David Lynch made The Straight Story, a movie about an old man driving his lawnmower to reconnect with his brother, it was rated G because there was no reason for it not to be, but that was and still is considered an act of rebellion. Find me a 10 year old kid who can engage with that for two hours and I'll be...a bit weirded out, to be honest. In any case, the only reason he brought it up was because of how it segments markets and the way some people hyper-fixate on it. Like we're doing right now.

[@kmecameron]

​@@Yo_DynamoJoe Patrick... doesn't say that though??? He gives several specific examples of R rated superhero stories that he likes and where he thinks the rating is justified? He mentions this multiple times? If you disagree with the video you should maybe disagree with the video not a strawman version of it.

[@sharkrancher282]

I love how this video laid out, beautifully, all of the reasons that 'Invincible' worked as a series... before the animated version even came out.

[@FraserSouris]

I don't really agree with the whole "you have to create different characters to explore darker stories" Take. Like, Harry Potter 4-7 becomes more adult and dark. But they also build on what happened in HP 1-3 which were much more light hearted and kid friendly. You have that connection and growing sense of progress. That's one reason why many people praise Harry Potter as a series that "grew up with its audience". I'd argue that effect would be lost if when it was time for Goblet of Fire, Rowling and Co just made a new series entirely starring a new 14 year wizard with a new name and continuity but one that relied on its audience being aware of everything that happened in the first 3 Harry Potter stories and be aware that this is basically that continuity with the names changed. I'd argue there's value in seeing more mature takes on established characters since you see those familiar elements and how they adapt or change. For example, stories like Superman Birthright explore what a realistic Superman story would be like. So stuff like the world being hostile to Superman or John Kent being worried about Clark's secret feel more significant since they show that contrast. You get a better sense of how being Superman would actually be if you have that contrast of more kids friendly material treating Superman and how Birthright treats Superman.

[@hurricane7727]

That Happened in Batman Vs Superman Ultimate Edition in a Way. Lex Luthor Jr( That is Classic Lex's Son) and The Fbi Set the Dead Bodies in Aftica Burning to Set Superman Up and The News and Media where Reacting to Superman Presesence which had Him go to The Usa Capitol( This scene isn't in the Regular Bvs).

[@leaffinite3828]

These are noncomparable stories. Harry Potter is a coming of age story that follows its characters from age 11 to 18, of course theres changes in the tone and perspective, the characters are going through an extremely turbulent and growth-laiden part of their lives, and the stakes change as they learn to see the world through more adult eyes. Superheros are already grown up. Superman might change his mind about things sometimes, but the core elements of who he is are set in stone, his maturation period is over. Changing the tone drastically requires either changing who he is or the world around him, and if the world is different he is necessarily going to be different himself (nature and nurture are both real).

[@FraserSouris]

@@leaffinite3828 *>"Superheros are already grown up. Superman might change his mind about things sometimes, but the core elements of who he is are set in stone, his maturation period is over."

[@leaffinite3828]

@@FraserSouris my point is more so that the whole "growing up with the audience" thing works for Harry Potter, a story involves characters changing worldviews and perspectives, and which has a start and ending. But superhero comics have been going on for decades and likely wont end anytime soon, so the characters will have to have some base characterization they return to, the "true" version of the character, to keep them from becoming unrecognizable. And I think that the more alternate universe stories you make where Superman is basically a different guy in a different setting the more diluted his character becomes and now the "true" version of Superman is different from person to person, and it just gets messy. Especially with reboots and the like. So they dont really "grow up" with the audience, and also the audience is full of ppl from age 50 to 10, so they cant really do it in the first place. I probably shouldve been more specific with my first comment. Also just to clarify I dont really think theyre incomparable of course, in fact comparing them is the thing were both doing, that was just incorrect from me. I really shouldve said they arent the same type of story, so you cant expect them to do or be able to do the same stuff

[@FraserSouris]

@@leaffinite3828 *>"But superhero comics have been going on for decades and likely wont end anytime soon, so the characters will have to have some base characterization they return to, the "true" version of the character, to keep them from becoming unrecognizable."

[@madtitan0825]

I thought Logan did the best way as a rated-r superhero movie, it’s not using R for “edgy and mature”, it used it cuz the setting of the movie is depressing and realistic af which match the rating and even with the amount of violence in the film the cruelest thing is Logan’s decaying life, the other good example is deadpool which is entirety opposite from Logan but with the backstory of the character it’s inevitable and with Tim Miller’s style of dark humor and meta moments it’s just so refreshing and entertaining，and as much as I enjoy watching JL dark apokolips war, I am just not a fan of it as r-rated movie, this film really love using shock value to create stakes which just completely lost&bored me and completely disturbed me in a bad way and killing our beloved characters cuz “I’m so god damn mature and here’s the proof” like this isn’t necessary bruh and the constant cursing just make it so cringy, like remember Cyborg’s last line in the movie “suck it bitches” I swear I cringed myself so much it just distracts me from the emotional weight of the film which this film have few but got dragged down by some rush moments and cringy dialogues

[@PRsGrabBag]

I think you're point about the shock value is what hampers a lot of R-rated stories in general. Directors and producers think that adding in some violence and a few fucks is what will make the story appeal to adults but really I think it just appeals to edgy teenagers who want to be seen as adults.

[@valenluca3253]

True, after that I have low expectations and zero shits given to the DC Animation series even the new ones.

[@madtitan0825]

@@PRsGrabBag yeah exactly it’s just edgy for the sake of it instead of the actual story

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

Making PG characters PG-13 is more impactful than making them R. That’s generally my metric. Making something more mature needs to be done by degrees. The stretch needs to be reasonable. Hearing Superman say “Shit” is terrifying. It means he’s scared that badly. Hearing Superman say “You motherfucker” is just really, really weird. It doesn’t even read like the character anymore.

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Let's just forget "The Wolverine". I think Logan works best as a deconstruction because the other movies were NOT R rated. They did not show the real impact of the violence, and Logan did- this is what those other movies would have realisticly led to. If it was just R rated Wolverine the whole time it would not have the same effect.

[@wusangfu]

You know why I keep watching this channel. Because this guy is PASSIONATE. A video essay of R-Rated super heroes? 40 minutes long? This man has something to say and by Jove, I'm going to listen.

[@euansmith3699]

I watch because Charl tells me to.

[@Duiker36]

That seems like an incredibly bad reason to listen to someone.

[@tylermane77]

Yet it's still shallow content that begins with a strawman. Funny, that.

[@colbygroover5185]

Great video! This is the kind of analysis that voices thoughts I myself have had about the direction of modern superhero media, but in a much more coherent and probing way. Good job!

[@NixLaser]

22:46 Patrick: but really, the ultimate example of the R-rated superhero deconstruction, is the one that everything else has been ripping of for the past 35 years Me: The Dark Knight Returns Patrick: Alan Moores Miracle Man Me: Ah yes of course, Alan Moores Miracle Man

[@jakeparker44]

Jake's ringtone, nice touch

[@OirichEntertainment]

Love your channel

[@Banvillen]

What is that ringtone? I cant remember where it's from!

[@derekderek]

Tears For Fears -“Everybody Wants to Rule the World”

[@YearsOfLeadPoisoning]

Songs From the Big Chair is an incredible album

[@comixproviderftw_02]

🎶Everybody wants to rule the world🎶

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

OBVIOUSLY adult-oriented or non-child friendly comic book stories are made to be told, but the entire reason that they work is that they’re acting as deconstructions or recontextualizations of far more innocent source material. If we had a market made up exclusively or predominantly adult-oriented, without representing its origins, then what we’d be left with is something like Disenchantment. Disenchantment is in a position where it seeks to satirize works like Game of Thrones in addition to other fantasy tropes, all the while forgetting that Game of Thrones is ALREADY a satire of the tropes that it’s satirizing. You can’t deconstruct a deconstruction, and sincerity needs to exist before you can have irony.

[@mrflipperinvader7922]

One argument i think people miss is the fact that graphic violence would happen alot more in real life Am I wrong?

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

@@mrflipperinvader7922 You know what WOULDN’T happen in real life? Magic aliens powered by the sun, whizzing around and solving world hunger. If you can consistently believe THAT, but you draw the line at them not cussing every other word or putting their thumbs through somebody’s eyes, then there’s something about FICTION that needs to be explained to you.

[@maximeteppe7627]

like scary movie is to scream, basically, Satire, that doesn't understand the original material and is more low brow. Of course the is a way to deconstruct a deconstruction, it's a reconstruction. You take the lessons from the deconstruction, but you rebuild something innocent from it, that can still wink at old tropes, but avoids the more toxic ones and just... brings new ideas to reinvigorate the genre.

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

@@maximeteppe7627 But that’s not deconstruction, isn’t it? That’s just doing LESS of a deconstruction.

[@mikemorro140]

@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick I mean to be fair by a certain point GOT did just become tropey in itself and thus can be deconstructed

[@Alienkiwi730]

If any superheroes in live action needed to be rated R, it's The Punisher

[@dereknelson7108]

I can't tell you how many "shows made for kids" I absolutely love and adore. Hilda, Kipo and the wonderbeasts, she-ra, clone wars, and so many more. all very much geared towards kids but just so so good!! I'm honestly tired of the dark and gritty stuff.

[@Johnlindsey289]

Not everything is Alan Moore and Frank Miller right?

[@jordanread5829]

One thing I like about those shows is that they grow alongside the audience. So usually the first few seasons or episodes are light hearted but as the show progresses you get more 'adult' style stories and character arcs. If you compare season 1 of the 2008 Clone Wars series with the recent S7 from last year, it feels like you are watching two different shows from a storytelling perspective and that is what makes it work. It does help that as the show nears the end it does get closer and closer to Revenge of the Sith. So while at the start it presents war as a sort of adventure (which was a thing in the real world, mainly WW1 for countries like Australia), the show begins to evolve where it shows the pain and trauma of war. And how at the end of the day, there is no "winning side". The Umbara arc in Season 4 is a great example of this. As it is shown through the point of view of the clones, in particular Fives and Rex. It doesn't pander to younger audiences and it doesn't become too dark and gritty that there is a massive disconnect. You get more adult and mature themes as the shows progress. Something like Darth Mauls arc in the Clone Wars wouldn't be as effective if it was done earlier in the show. Now obviously binge watching shows like that well after it comes out won't have the same affect, but for a long running series that has a progressive storyline it still works.

[@Johnlindsey289]

@@jordanread5829 And do you think some took the wrong lessons from Nolan, Miller and Alan Moore?

[@jordanread5829]

@@Johnlindsey289 Absolutely. Mainly Zack Synder who uses the R rating for basically gore porn instead of using it to enhance character development and establishes the setting & themes of the movie, like it does in Deadpool and Logan. Just have to look at how Wonder Women is portrayed in her first solo movie to the Synder cuts version of her intro fight scene in Justice League. Feels like you are seeing two different versions of the same character. It is odd that Diana would try to stop terrorists from blowing up a building.... only to destroy the building herself just to kill 1 guy.

[@Johnlindsey289]

@@jordanread5829 What makes that no different than Paul Verhoeven's 1987 Sci-fi action superhero r-rated classic Robocop? i mean it's gruesome as hell and nearly got an X rating but got an unrated director's cut later on as there's an executive who is blown into shreds by an Ed-209, a guy being blown into pieces by shotguns and all that. Or was Robocop a well written well done satrical film?

[@matthewjoy475]

Patrick agreeing that B:TAS is the best take on the character in any medium is the vindication I need right now.

[@JebeckyGranjola]

On the flip side, there is PG-13: "Let's show people being violently killed, but no blood so it's Ok. And general audience admission makes the most money." I don't think that is a good thing either. Alien Versus Predator is the best (or worst?) example. Released blood free PG-13 in theaters, then edited in cgi blood to sell on home video as the "uncut version". Exact same movie otherwise. The Kings Speech and Batman v. Superman (Theatrical) should have their ratings swapped. Rating for actual content, not a no no checklist, would solve this problem.

[@blokey8]

It's possibly part of a wider trend. I remember Film Crit Hulk saying something along these lines regarding the violence in Michael Bay's Transformers movies (which is very different to that in Bumblebee and Pacific Rim), in that it's violent intended first and foremost to validate the properties for an older audience than the one it was originally meant for.

[@AManWhoWasntThere]

For me the appeal of an R rating is the weird American rating system where you can't swear. It just makes it possible to have more realistic dialogue. It's just weird when something crazy or bad happens and the strongest words the characters can use are like: "Well, gosh darn!" People swear in real life... I don't need the violence but I want unrestricted language

[@Gibbypastrami]

I was watching young justice the other day and Kid Flash called Mallah a "darn dirty ape" Irked me in a way I can't describe

[@stephenrynerson5530]

You can get lots of swearing in a PG-13 (including at least one use of the F-word) or even PG rated movie -- the trend has been for studios simply to have less swearing in movies that are aimed at younger audiences. (Seriously, go back and watch PG-13/PG movies action and comedy movies from the mid-1980s to early 1990s and you'll be amazed at how much swearing there is in many of them compared to what you see today.)

[@keithasaur0]

Definitely have come to respect Conway a lot more in recent time because of his support of BLM, and how vocal he is in addressing his feelings regarding how the Punisher has been used politically.

[@Kuchenklau]

The shot at 1:37 is actually really impressive. The lighting combined with the revelation in the scene works very well imo

[@framerofworlds9984]

I find it interesting that, most if not all of the more successful R-rated superhero movies are adaptions of heroes that were created from the 1970's onward. in other words, they were characters that were created once the genre was already turning darker. Wolverine, Punisher, Deadpool all those characters were created post-1970.

[@shaid1111]

Batman V Superman unfortunately counts as successful. Though I suppose we could pretend it doesn't since it's the theatrical cut that made money and that was technically PG-13.

[@nykcarnsew2238]

@@shaid1111 I think you could debate it’s success. It made its money back but it still got a pretty large backlash, such that Warner Brothers completely pivoted their direction for DC for the next few years

[@jonsmith9838]

@@nykcarnsew2238 well I dont know how much of a pivot. suicide squad and the batman probally will be r. and joker was r. aquaman shazam, and wonder woman weren't and it shouldn't be

[@nykcarnsew2238]

@@jonsmith9838 they pivoted so hard they kicked Zac Snyder before Justice League was even finished. Those movies are rated R but other than that they’re nothing like BVS

[@jonsmith9838]

@@nykcarnsew2238 yes but that less of a pivote from Dark movie and more of pivot from working with Snyder. They pivoted right back though it seems

[@babymariobrother3793]

Just subscribed! Overall, this video was incredibly well-made, and made a variety of good points too. So thank you for the work you and your team put into it. Your commentary definitely made me rethink why exactly I love certain DC imprints: like DC Ink, DC Zoom, and Young Animal. It's not just that it's really great content, but also because each of those imprints clearly define the age demographic they're intended for. I hadn't *really* thought about that before watching this video, but it makes a world of difference.

[@rossharper1983]

If a superhero movie isn't R rated then my interest in watching it is majorly decreased.

[@christophfilms.1568]

Now I want an in depth breakdown of LoTr and the Hobbit

[@Miginath]

@CHRISTOPHfilms Check out Lindsay Ellis.

[@direcircumstances]

Our girl Lindsay has you covered.

[@scottbell1414]

Next week: A Psychological Exploration of the Catharsis of On-Screen Violence

[@emperorbailey]

I’m here for it.

[@pinoyjona]

I like to see rated-R superhero movies, Logan is still one of my favorite superhero movies and recently rewatched the 2004 Punisher and still enjoy it. However, it only works when it’s the right continuity for the superhero, not when people want them rated-R for the wrong reasons. When I was a teen, I definitely was into the angst and would likely be one of those people who want a more gritty content, but the more I got older, I prefer them working for a more deliberate comic book characters that reaches a darker tone like Invincible or Spawn. I never want someone like Superman to be portrayed hardcore and go gore galore on someone. Characters like The Red Hood or The Punisher killing and violence is cranked up, is what I want to see, but with someone more colorful and more hopeful, I prefer it toned down to fit their world. Batman potentially I could see being rated R, but not for the violence, but more like the recent Batman movie more or for a more grim and psychological movie. Maybe that’s why I can’t take the tone of the live action Titans seriously while I still look highly for the tone of Young Justice.

[@thankskanye1521]

Yeah exactly. It really depends on what character we’re talking about. Superman or Ms Marvel are not really characters that benefit from a R rating so therefore it’s not needed (although that’s not to say it’s impossible for it to work). But as you said characters like red hood or punisher work really well for that type of rating. Even some characters like Batman or daredevil that although were intended for kids just work really with an R rating

[@bobross1829]

The wish for R rated superhero movies is by adult misfits that think making comic book superheroes "dark and gritty" will somehow validate their nerdom as adults. It doesn't

[@MotherboardStandoff]

It's also weird when the reverse happens, when a gritty movie gets adaptations for kids and the toys to go with them. Take the original Robocop as an example. The humor and tone is not aimed at kids, but here is the Robocop cartoon and toys to go with them. Not opposed to the idea and I can totally see why you would do that, but it also feels kinda odd.

[@Johnlindsey289]

I saw Robocop in theaters when i was 5 years old with my family and we thought it rocked! i even had a few toys, comics and all as a kid even watched the cartoon at age 6.

[@movieman1644]

Or when the ultra-violent Mask comic books got turned into a kids comedy

[@charlespuruncajas9663]

And then franchises that were for +18 audiences become mutilated for kids: The Robocop franchise itself

[@darlalathan6143]

That didn't work so well for him and killed the franchise.

[@FrauleinMuller999]

These times were insane. Robocop, Rambo, Chuck Norris, all got children's cartoon & merchandise based off their violent movies made for adults. That's because they were super popular with youngsters too, I watched Rambo movies and Robocop as a kid.

[@articunodostres5326]

2 notes. Love you saying the word indulgence as you show some frames from Watchmen. And holy crap. Seeing Gerry Conway was legit one of the coolest moments from your videos.

[@boltdm8238]

- Can we have some challenging new ideas? - No, we already have challenging new ideas at home. Chellenging new ideas at home: MONEY AND WEAPON BAD

[@kathrynoneill5862]

When I was a kid superheroes were for kids and adults would watch with their kids. Now they are made for nerdy adults with money.

[@timpage9424]

Shout out to you for making it 30 minutes in before mentioning Joker.

[@WMan37]

It sounds like your argument isn't against gritty superheroes, it's against insecure edge for the sake of edge. As someone who doesn't idolize Alan Moore or hang off his every word, and someone who wants more R rated superhero stuff, I mean, I agree and always have agreed. This is why there WAS backlash against that series where robin says "fuck batman". At the end of the day my desire for R rated superhero stories is to have absolutely 0 restrictions on creative freedom so that greater stories can blossom, rather than having 0 restrictions on the target audience. If studios are just simply making it R rated because that puts asses in seats that defeats the purpose of _why_ I want R rated superhero movies. PG or R, I just want a good story. If something is mandated to be PG and _things are cut for the sake of being PG_ that is where the problem is for many.

[@thelastpictureshow4782]

While I did enjoy the original Watchmen graphic novel, I feel the same way about Alan Moore and I'm getting tired of seeing people treat him like the God of comic books (kind of ironic since a person like him would not want to be treated that way). Since this video didn't even mention Watchmen on HBO, which is arguably on par or better than the graphic novel, it makes me wonder if it's just an excuse to hate on Zack Snyder... again. It's almost become a hobby for people on the internet. Batman v. Superman was obviously not good, but I've moved on a long time ago. Watchmen from 2009? Some good and some bad there. Man of Steel? A below average Superman movie, but possibly an above average alien invasion movie (whether Superman as a character was ever good to begin with is worth debating). I want more R rated superhero movies/shows because of Logan, The Boys, and Watchmen on HBO. I love those for the dialogue, acting, cinematography, and editing. It has nothing to do with the violence. There are a couple great Marvel movies and quite a few terrific PG-13 and PG movies, but R-rated movies by their nature have more ambiguity and complexity in regard to their characters and themes. Adults can still enjoy superhero movies/shows, Star Wars, or anything that's aimed at children or young adults, but if they only consume that type of entertainment, or obsess over it on the internet, then they need to grow up and broaden their horizons.

[@GermanLeftist]

Always remember the immortal lines of The Doctor in at the end of the first Tom Baker serial Robot: "What's the point of being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?"

[@HadeyanUtkan]

Patrick I can't describe how wholesome I feel it about these mediums thx to your video (videos actually). Cuz I know that there are people like me out there thinking similar things. And that pushes me to write about these things (I have a geek blog on my own in Turkish) . And also I love the construction of your videos. You're informing but not bussying. You're confirming and prooving your points but not in a "smartasss" way. Its humoruos , clever and neat. And I really love the way that you produce your content outside of the current meta. You're not chasing "whats the top topics of this week" , you're talking about whats left behind and important. That's my way of doing things too. And I totally agree with you. Lately media glamourized "Dark Hero" or " Violent Anti-Hero" movies. And the problem is, they're doing it in a very postmodernist way. They decide to make a gun using, mass murdering super hero movie. And they can use characters like Punisher, Moon Knight, Red Hood and so on. But they're using Batman instead, the exact opposite of it. They need a edgy, resented version of Robin and they can use jason todd or damian wayne for it but no they're using Dick Grayson for that. The most wholesome gotham hero ever. I mean, its not just they're after blank, empty violence but they also put the role on an unfitting character. They're deconstructing everything. Anyway, I know this is an old video and I watched when you posted at that time but I never commented on it. But now this video is much more valuable. Cuz every problem and conflict you pointed sadly became thru and ironicly none of those movies become so successful at box office (except some exceptions) .

[@tom4md123]

Yes with the' You Were Never Really Here' shout-out!

[@ehjoneswriter]

To me, the best superhero film is Spider-Man: Into The Spider-Verse. It's great, it has really mature and even rather dark moments, and yet it's still the cartoon made for kids and has way more depth than any Zach Snyder film

[@ImLewisPatrick]

Spider-Man and especially Spider-verse in some ways is very much something for kids to help teach them about coping with death and obviously 'power and responsibility'. It's some heavy stuff, but wrapped in a delightfully fun bubble.

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

Don't forget about the 2000 movie Unbreakable

[@Gin-kz5ss]

Ye

[@blokey8]

Absolutely. It shows that you can have a poignant scene where people lament their losses, and the clincher can be delivered by the cartoon pig. You can have Scorpion with four legs and Kingpin whose shoulders are a foot higher than his head, and still have the father-son scene which makes me sniffle every time. And the Prowler is legitimately fearsome.

[@pierredufour6164]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZa9nJqqmp2HrpY

[@joehooley7124]

Awesome video! I'd love to see you do more comic book content!!

[@beveryofa2546]

Wow, I'm not subscribed yet but I was pleasantly surprised that I had seen the entire episode that the intro comes from without knowing it. Well done.