What Is Torque Mapping? | Torque Based ECU Tuning

[@hpa101]

Take $25 USD off ANY HP Academy course with this coupon: KZbin25 Enroll now: hpcdmy.co/25offytc - Taz 👨🏻

[@opt123123]

"Dont want to lose our viewers" ... buddy that's what we're here for :)

[@SaltySRT]

The amount of knowledge drop on this channel continues to amaze me. A decade ago I thought my boost-by-gear was all I needed and best thing since sliced bread, this is so many more levels beyond that. Thanks again for the content.

[@jdmjesus6103]

God, I remember that. Everyone raving about 'boost by gear' and I was like - what about temperature compensation? Revs? Wheel slip? I'd been tuning with those for years by that point but they just looked at me blankly... mostly Honda boys...

[@8power0]

THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE BEST TUNING INFORMATION CHANNEL ON KZbin............ HANDS DOWN THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@hpa101]

Appreciate the enthusiasm and support mate 😎 - Taz.

[@adammoore9318]

Hats off again to Andre. The fact that this can be explained and easily retained by the viewer in a little over 20min video is dead set down to how well you conduct the interview as a whole. From your knowledge of the subject matter, the words you use, how clearly you speak, the questions asked. Awesome as usual 🤙

[@hpa101]

Cheers for the support Adam! Appreciate it 😎

[@zerodrift1]

@@hpa101 I agree with Adam - Great interview and format. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this type of content. Simply riveting.

[@notsponsored103]

Need to watch that a few more times. Gold mine of info. Brilliant interview as usual.

[@hpa101]

Yes there is a bit to unpack in this one! Glad you enjoyed it and cheers for the comment mate - Taz.

[@syrthdr09sybr34]

It's always a treat listening to an artist talk about his craft, straight to the point with the technical details and ground breaking insight. Will definitely have to watch several times to unpack all the useful info this guy just casually dropped.

[@jkotka]

in around 1990 saab started using the method of calculating from MAF the amount of air per combustion event in mg, this value maps directly to the torque. from this you can get to a map where you are mapping torque request over rpm and tp. which works actually very well, the ecu will request boost based on the torque request, you need to calibrate the turbo map, but after that its just magic. fueling you can directly calculate from the air amount, which ever lambda you want. I've been missing this functionality in all standalon ecus since. Also the same oem ECU used the spark plugs to measure ionisation current to read knock, to allow for max power for the fuel used, and used the lambdas to estimate what the ethanol content of the fuel is to work as flexifuel system without extra sensors.

[@barongogenzoler4300]

Good old days. Does engine efficiency change significantly over chamber heat range, boost levels, rpm range, intake air temperature range etc? I mean difference between 0,32 and 0,33 will give you noticeable error in calculation. If yes, you need much more mapping done to estimate your torque accurately but actually it's not a problem for modern ECU. And even more, just imagine standalone ECU fully connected to the dyno that do all the mapping automatically. Actually nothing unrealistic for current technologies.

[@barongogenzoler4300]

Actually, torque model is for everyone and OEM has proven this and we finally have ultimate ECU for engine swaps that gives you everything that original computer did. Torque management gives you not only ability to control tire slip but also gives you basis to integrate standalone in modern chassis that relay on torque model in their ABS/ESP modules, automatic transmissions, awd controlled differentials etc. And with conjunction with fully configurable CAN bus this standalone allows you to integrate every engine almost in every car, just imagine W206 Mercedes with Coyote with fully functional MB electronics, a lot of work but what's result!

[@johnny_gtr]

This was a brilliant interview. The knowledge of the interviewee and his matter-of-fact delivery is brilliant. Nothing to hide, just good, solid information. Well done to Andre as well for asking the right questions.

[@barongogenzoler4300]

Ironically that functionality introduced for OEM in late 90s became sensation in top range standalone in 2022. Maybe in 10 years we would have ionic currents to detect preignition like Saab in 1994.

[@moedigzz]

BMW also uses an ionic detonation detection system. It is very similar to the system first used by SAAB. Particularly used in the v10 powered e60 M5, as well as the v8 powered e90 M3. IIRC, they both use a Siemens ECU/Engine management system.

[@Nebbia_affaraccimiei]

for real lol, talk like torque management is a new thing xD

[@barongogenzoler4300]

@@moedigzz it was introduced 10 years after SAAB. Also I know about this technology from Ferrari's R&D article that was published in mid 00s, don't know if they introduced it but on paper approach looked extremely straightforward.

[@hpa101]

Re Saab, you can do that now and have been able to for some time. Economies of scale is what you're fighting against, not availability. Same with this functionality, it's not even MoTeC's first foray into torque management as you have been able to tune your R35 GTR with a MoTeC ECU this way for some time, it's just a new firmware update that brings it to many more people and applications, and we're talking about how it works 😎 - Taz.

[@moedigzz]

This type of engine management has been used for DECADES by the large car/truck manufacturers. It has been the standard for all engine management systems produced for these manufacturers. This is HOW ANTIQUATED most standalone/aftermarket engine management systems are. Most are using tuning theories and electronics that are at least a decade old.

[@ninjakevin6226573]

Literally this,

[@hpa101]

Yes, torque mapping is nothing new, not even to MoTeC, it's just a new firmware update that brings this option to many more people than previously if they want it, and we're just discussing how it works. That said there is a lot the aftermarket offers us that OEMs don't, that is why products like this exist. Different goals, different budgets, different target markets - Taz.

[@ogfromutube9649]

@@hpa101 very true.. modified stock ECU can get you pretty far but there is always a limit. Even modern ones. I have a built gen3 LS and a late 90s whiteblock inline 5 both tuned on stock ecu's. The m4.4 with larger maf housings things become far less accurate and controllable. Cause while a map was added it is only to log not for boost control. That is all load based only. Now add a megasquirt, Maxx, fueltech, motech, haltech, you have many more inputs. However my tuner actually repurposed unused inputs on the stock ECU. Integrated an internal map sensor, and used the analog O2 input from the stock narrowband for lambda regulation on a wideband. Even repurposed the o2 preheater for rear O2 as a 12v source for powering vvt solenoids at set load/rpm points.

[@danielbaker7637]

What year was drive by wire introduced in a automobile?

[@ogfromutube9649]

@@danielbaker7637 1999 for most

[@zerodrift1]

I've watched this video so many times. Great content, discussion and visual aids. Absolutely stellar breakdown of something that quite complex. HPA team, well done. This video has inspired me as the firmware and strategies are exactly what I'm after on my build.

[@grahamek86]

RE: Waste throttle mapping. OEM ECUs have strategized this for many years. For example, in Bosch Motronic, there is a table which references engine speed and pressure ratio and the Z axis is the throttle angle at which the plate is no longer acting like a throttle. Before this level, the ECU uses the plate for charge pressure and cylinder filling regulation, after that, it switches to the boost pressure solenoid and regulates charge via turbocharger output. At high pressure ratios, it's far less refined to use the throttle angle to reduce torque due to the impact it has on charge pressure as it's very difficult to predict and calibrate how the turbocharger will operate at a certain RPM, pressure ratio, temperature etc. The OEM strategy also doesn't have a 1:1 pedal to throttle angle mapping. The pedal position translates to a torque value which is then translated to an airflow target. The charge pressure regulation system then takes over and uses the above strategy to regulate.

[@Beansswtf]

Could listen to this guy all day haha. Would be ace for longer podcast style sittings!

[@barongogenzoler4300]

Please, please, please, make a video about OEMish technologies like this, that we don't have in common standalones. People must know what they actually need to demand as new features. Also community need to have myth busters content. One reputable person from my local community told me that MAF can't sense reverse flow and therefor is not suitable for turbo. Diesel VW Golf laughing at him from 1999. I bet this fake is main reason why only Haltech has MAF support among reasonably priced ECUs.

[@ogfromutube9649]

Not true p2 Volvo maf reads reverse flow. The t6 from early 2000s uses no bypass/diverter valve and allows a small amount of compressor stall. Maf and map is best combo but maf certainly works well with forced induction. Most are load based and not boost based anyway for the ve table.

[@VizziMoto]

Second this

[@hpa101]

HELP! Enjoyed our podcasts? Help us, we'll make you 'podcast famous' and give you free stuff! Leave a review, it can be in the form of a question and if we read it out at the end of a future episode we'll also give you a free tee, mug or clippings of Andre's back hair, your choice! Apple Podcasts reviews help the podcast the most, but any help is appreciated: lovethepodcast.com/hpa-tuned-in PS: Thanks for the support and for tuning in (dum, dum, psh!)- Taz 🧔🏻

[@driftpig2462]

So good I love this kind of content! the HP ABC Wainui kindy spell it out approach gets kinda tiring sometimes, love how Andre couldn't even stop him, he tried slamming the anchors a few times to no avail. Let the man go Dre the guys that are at this level can understand him

[@999Lucas]

Torque Mapping is pretty well tested and used with the honda L15B turbo motor. I think the video makes it sound like racecar tech or magic, but I think its just an easier ways for engineers to keep track of wheelspeed for telemetry adjustments (read TCS).

[@hpa101]

No magic, just science. It is done in a few different ways though, even in the OEM world, and you cannot take your Honda ECU and fit it to just about any other vehicle like you can an aftermarket ECU like we're discussing here. Different ECUs, different goals - Taz.

[@mitchelllucier6930]

Interviews by this guy are the best!!

[@ZEPRATGERNODT]

I'll have to listen to this again as it is very interesting to fully understand.

[@MarcusMussawar]

thank you for the graph

[@RBGgermanKX250F]

Very very interesting. Have been wondering when theres another step towards torque based. Though from my understanding it's still a ways off what's in a OEM ECU. Which of course totally understandable, we don't all have engine Dyno's etc 😂 It makes sense that for the system to work well the ignition timing needs to be completely or mostly set to MBT but this will mean you would only be able to get the max from this package with an appropriate dyno that can do MBT. The traction control strategy sounds awesome. Also like what they were doing with throttle even before this system for driveability. Know I definitely know to try it as I've been thinking about it for a while. Awesome stuff. Good start to the morning

[@JC-zt1bq]

You find this algorithm in the 2007-08 and all the way up into the newer boosted Subarus

[@shaneplohl]

Pretty cool control system! Thanks for the graphics, very helpful.

[@hpa101]

Cheers Shane! Sam here did a good job on those, I'll make sure he sees your comment, he'll apprecite it - Taz.

[@TheAnonymous1one]

This was an amazing technical interview

[@ogfromutube9649]

It's like the level sensors on modern drag. It literally pulls timing as front tires lift allowing for a very smooth transition setting the front back down without lifting throttle and falling on your face or being super skilled and reactive modulating throttle.

[@ogfromutube9649]

Makes sense to me. Example: ever drive a low hp vehicle and you floor it at mid to low rpm, you can gradually let off the throttle and you'll find a place that feels more efficient then wot. Also controlling the power consistently to create a smooth power curve all the way through the rpm range. So rather then the driver modulating throttle the ECU essentially doing it for you, to only reach the desired target and hold it smoothly. No overshoot no overpower. And also affects reliability in a big way I'm sure.

[@barongogenzoler4300]

You are making great thing! Popularizing this OEMish technologies in aftermarket scene you create demand, so I believe we will see soon this kind of functionality in much cheaper and much popular models like Haltech or Link or etc.

[@gingersquatch9844]

I hope that I can program my Teensy based Speeduino for something similar to this!!! I'm using a Teensy because it operates at a minimum of 600 MHz and can make many more calculations than even a Motech system.... And it natively supports CANBUS for multiple systems!!

[@jdmjesus6103]

Teensy's are great, I'm using one for a touch screen can bus display with can switches, although I didn't manage to get the native can working and went with an additional board.

[@marcov6t770]

The guy nows his stuff! I experienced that too with my turbo'd vr6, when I'm like full throttle in the higher gears, and then lower the throttle to like 75-80%, the power[torque] doesn't really change, there's even a sweat spot where there's more torque than full throttle, I guess its due to the intake air speed. I've a Pectel(now Cosworth) ecu with DBW, and have mapped full throttle to less than 100% in some areas. So yes, this makes a lot of sense, I can get around a little, but it's not perfect. By the way, it's just a streetcar, so I've enough traction, but one thing he didn't mention, how does it work on a rainy day(i understand that in Australia it doesn't rain that much, but still)?

[@konic40]

Amazing automotive tech

[@351kostakis]

Fantastic

[@curvs4me]

I've been pondering this for 6 months.

[@hpa101]

Did this help?

[@curvs4me]

@@hpa101 Definitely awesome. Imagining the curves from different timing, injection and boost from every RPM

[@SimonWorlds]

Great video Andre, some great information there, but definitely only for a select market of racers. The GT cars are very similar in this way of controlling traction control.

[@hairpinperformance3926]

Great video. Definitely helps people understand a lot of OE logic

[@adamburke5400]

That was goodness overload

[@armchairtuner]

Very Informative video :)

[@heem6619]

Haha this guy is brilliant. Knows his stuff and is very engaging.

[@JH-jo9wt]

Wait till you see him drive his gts-t /watch?v=a-eYQlkMXrc&t=136s&ab_channel=callanrs2000

[@Marvin-sl4fu]

Great info, thanks guys!

[@hpa101]

Our pleasure!

[@pab3783]

Wow

[@59vaughn]

What aboot a cylinder pressure episode ..ill look for a past reference as well...

[@JBPerformance]

Cool to see that aftermarket is aiming for OEM like control. (Bosch edc16 and up)

[@barongogenzoler4300]

At least ME7, maybe even ME2.8 at 97+ MBs.

[@JBPerformance]

@@barongogenzoler4300 possibly, i work strictly on Diesel side.

[@FredAllenBurge]

My feeling has long been that we should all be tuning for maximum cylinder pressure and therefore truly need a cylinder pressure sensor developed that can allow for that kind of live monitoring. Why tune for MBT or AFR when cylinder pressure is the thing we are trying to produce (under full load atleast)? A live torqur sensor on the driveshft or crank could accomplish the same possibly?

[@dj4monie]

They exist, F1 uses them, $$$$

[@59vaughn]

Dang this is some sweet conversation...🙃

[@Alchemist37]

Fascinating stuff!

[@hpa101]

Cheers mate, glad you found it interesting 😎

[@nismofreak33]

❤️

[@apricity69]

Next level: mimicking how Rivian R1T uses its 4 electric motors to constantly measure traction at each contact patch and provide exactly the right amount of torque for the measured traction. Right now ICE vehicles can only measure individual wheel speed but not individual wheel traction. They can only estimate traction. Then they try to target torque slightly over that estimate (per axle, not per wheel) then use traction control to get closer. Is there some way for an ICE car to directly measure traction/torque at each contact patch?

[@Reaper_f30]

so does torque based tuning apply for the BMW b48 and b58 engines?

[@p0intdk]

What if i dont have Motec money? 😥 Guess I have to save up, but that is some really cool stuff revolutionary even.

[@dj4monie]

If you need to go really fast with manageable power, lots of options exist but they are equally expensive? How fast you wanna go son?

[@OGAwsomSauce]

Think of the 10th Gen civics turbo cars

[@jdcustomz]

1999 DME have been using Tq based management.. funny they charge so much for tech that is well over 20 years behind...

[@hpa101]

If that tech and ECU was so good in its previous 20 year old form, we'd all be using them instead of aftermarket ECUs to be fair - Taz.

[@danielbaker7637]

What year was drive by wire introduced in a automobile?

[@hpa101]

No idea sorry Daniel, but this is what a Google search thinks: americanhistory.si.edu/america-on-the-move/driving-by-wire I'd probably check a few other sources too just to be safe though - Taz.

[@hasole9669]

And I thought Emtron was clever. My poor VE model seems dated now

[@hpa101]

Still a more than solid platform though compared to some other options, I wouldn't be pulling it out for the sake of it just yet - Taz.

[@Takeitlightly6]

I dont understand what language are you two people speaking in? I had 2 coffees and it was hard not to drift off on the level of geek here

[@kyleshady21]

I don't see this being a good way to run an engine. With peak TQ being peak CYL pressure this is going to put a lot strain on the internals. Yes TQ is true power where HP is the rate in which power is made but there's a reason the golden age of F1 cars ran at 7000-9000 rpm above peak TQ. I'm just not really seeing the benefit here. It's as if they are trying to apply electric motor logic to a gas engine.

[@hpa101]

The benefit of this technique is explained in the video - it's torque that is the important aspect as far as the available traction goes, hence that is the metric we really want to control. There's absolutely nothing wrong with running an engine at a torque value that the engine is built to reliably support, beyond this it becomes a decision for the engine tuner and builder to make however this firmware gives you the ability to manipulate the torque in any way or shape you see fit. The particular example in this video is an engine that's competing at the absolute cutting edge so when traction allows they will be feeding it all the torque they can within the limitations of the turbocharger. F1 engines of the era you mention didn't have the benefit of boost, and they had capacity limits hence the only way of making the power levels they did was to optimise the airflow (which really is just torque) at incredibly high rpm to leverage the fact that rpm is a multiplier in the equation for power. That being said while it's pretty hard to get solid and reliable dyno plots on genuine F1 engines, one's I have seen really don't show the sort of rpm variation between peak torque and peak power you're suggesting. Take for example the Honda RA122E which made peak torque at about 12,000 rpm and peak power at about 14,500 with a redline of 15k. Torque remains within about 10% of peak from 11,000-14,500 rpm. imgur.com/a/hR24FUf - Andre

[@kyleshady21]

Is this team wining most of the races?

[@kyleshady21]

Judd engine dyno graphs can be found easily and even on the low end you see an almost 5000 + rpm peak tq to peak hp on the dyno. For top f1 engines I assure you that spread is even higher especially with the smaller bores.

[@barongogenzoler4300]

@@kyleshady21 man, you didn't get the idea. This software allows you to get exactly amount of torque from the engine, not the maximum possible. For example: you have engine that can produce 500nm at 5000rpm, then you do some mapping and then your ECU can make engine produce any torque between 0nm and 500nm at this RPM. You can ask ANY torque from your engine that it can produce. If you do some math, you can calculate maximal torque that you can transfer to tarmac. In some condition in some gear it may be 347nm, then you need somehow calculate throttle position to achieve the torque target and this software do this math. Also torque management is very graceful and logical way of communication between automatic gearbox and engine. Let's imagine the gearbox tells your engine that it need to shut down to 250nm so trany can safely change gear. If your ECU knows and modulates exact amount of torque it can for example just do nothing if it's torque is 232nm or reduce from 400nm to 250nm, stay at specific throttle and don't loose boost. Yeah, it's exactly layer of abstraction that makes electric motor logic out of IC engine: you can draw any torque curve for whatever reason you want. And it's works great, OEM's have proven this for decades. Really, BMW introduced Bosch ECU with this exact technology in 1998 and probably since 2005 absolutely every car (at least European) has it from factory.

[@kyleshady21]

Is this self learning? Or are they plugging this in manually? To get this to truly work properly. You would have to change it for every turn, temp, high humidity vs low humidity, crap it would be endless. This vs running a high end traction control system. Also if stock car manufacturers have been using this for years have they been using it in their race programs?

[@ogfromutube9649]

Make it so driver doesn't need to be as skilled essentially lol

[@hpa101]

You should at least try slinging some of these time attack cars around the track before making a statement like that on how 'easy' it is I reckon 😅 Then go do it again but be at the top of the time sheets too 😉 - Taz.

[@ogfromutube9649]

@@hpa101 oh I know.. it's a coated statement. But look at drag racing. When you power wheelied you had to have excellent throttle control. Now sensors pull timing and ease you down with no throttle lift. There's still skill involved but now it's attention goes to going faster instead of maintaining traction lol.

[@dj4monie]

@@ogfromutube9649 Stop whining, nine times out of ten Drag Racers are using an Automatic. They are just shifting because they haven't figured out how to get a modern 8 speed to work and the majority can't afford a modern ZF transmission. Half the dudes are broke and run to the yard to buy another LS when their original unopened block bust from running 40 psi from a Chinese turbo.. This channel is above your pay grade.

[@ogfromutube9649]

@@dj4monie nobodies whining turd nugget... Was poking fun.. it's a joke not a 🍆 don't take it so hard...

[@ogfromutube9649]

@@dj4monie And you have 0 clue anything about me to make a judgement about my "pay grade" Have 2 motor swapped volvos, and 90% of turbos are made in tawain and have seen many ppl run cheap turbos with loads of success. Your comment was so far from relevant to the conversation it's like you have no comprehension of the topic. Who said anything about shifting an automatic or buying a junkyard LS? I have fully built lm7 with summit 8707, pac 1219 springs, brt trunion and pushrods, tbss, 92mm tb, with a ford 9" 3.73 spooled, tuned on hptuners. And a 12 second stock frame turbo 98 family sedan. I'm a hobbyist not a professional never claimed to be. Bring your mommy bought scat pack with fake red-eye badges and eBay wheels and let me smoke it. And if you are legit racer with fast cars great for you. We're all enthusiasts no need to be an fboy.