Lecture VIII Background: Abrahamic Stories, with Matthieu & Jonathan Pageau

Watch Exodus available exclusively on DailyWire+: bit.ly/3UgQLe6
I had this 90 minute discussion with Jonathan Pageau, carver of Orthodox icons (www.pageaucarvings.com/index.html) and KZbin broadcaster ( / pageaujonathan , as well as his brother Matthieu, who recently finished a draft of a book on the bible. I did so as part of the background research I was doing for the 8th lecture in my series The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories. We talked about the nature of the narrative landscape of the Bible, focusing on the Abrahamic stories, which constitute the subject material for that 8th and other forthcoming lectures.
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[@gregstt7288]

Professor Peterson. I've been immersed in your lectures for 7 months now. Thank you for helping me see how an ungrateful western kid I have been. Thank you that I have transitioned from cleaning my room to the rest of the house and helping me to develop a better relationship with my parents. Thank you for helping me set aside my Godless and leftist revolutionary views which is strong in adolescent males, and for helping me realize that we can't change the world to make ourselves happy and free; that we have to change ourselves to make the world happy and free; to be the change that I want to see in the world. Thank you that I have almost given up most of my bad habits. Ultimately, thank you for putting me through this hardship, which I now understand is a short-term sacrifice for a better future. Thank you for helping me see the value of sacrifice. And now to consider the Christian faith of my forebears; the beginning of a new journey.

[@JordanBPeterson]

Hey, Greg: my pleasure. Congratulations on growing up. Not everyone does it.

[@gregstt7288]

Well, I never imagined growing up to be quite this difficult. It has always been more convenient for me to make the easier but damaging choices. Didn't think I had it in me. But the pay-off is quite extraordinary. and sitting through countless hours of your unique lectures for free - are you kidding me?

[@dementare]

I completely agree with Greg's TT comment, except the "godless" part, and I believe Jordan goes a bit to harsh against the non-believers. While he tries to draw a separation between those who actually believe the world is 6000 years old and what he considers the "average believer"... I also would appreciate it if Jordan could realize that the "Atheist" he rails against is only the result of those who *actually* believe the earth is only 6000 years old, and that there is an *actual* sky daddy. If such things weren't being taught, trained, and *INGRAINED* in the youth, then the atheist arguments he confronts wouldn't exist. For all intents and purposes, Jordan is an Atheist himself... He does *NOT* believe that there is an actual thinking caring intelligent agent that governs reality... and *that* is the god that most average christians actually believe in. I wish they didn't, I wish more pastors took Jordan's point of view... but they don't... and until they do, and until people like Ken Ham stop being popular and getting *100MILLION* dollars from the general public to build a completely perfect example of the horrendous level of articulation that the average believer has. I'm not saying the Kan Ham believer is average, but they aren't that far off. Hell "Evolution" is still debatable with most of them.... it shouldn't be, and *ONLY* is *Because* of the horrific *religious* teachings that currently exist. I wish Jordan the best, just think he's a bit too rough on those who undertook the task of surpassing the articulation of those who claim to know, when in fact they don't.

[@sircastic959]

Wish you the best of luck, although I feel the need to warn you, don´t put blind trust in religion and don´t trust the institutions. There is personal faith and then there is organized religion. And it comes with its own bagage. Although I am probably insulting your ability right now since you were already able to break free from one dogma...

[@gregstt7288]

Sir Castic - that's a good point. I've had to eventually accept (with reluctance) that the belief in the absolute absence of a transcendent being requires quite an extraordinary amount of intellectual effort, and cannot be proven any more than the existence of God, that surely the default position of any thinking person has to be agnosticism, because anything beyond that requires faith, and it seems to me that the gospels provide the best clue to this transcendence. I've tested Zoroastrianism, the Bahai faith, and buddhism which are all extremely respectable and commendable but were ultimately unsatisfactory to me. I'm considering Christianity for its uniqueness that no other faith seem to be able offer, which is the idea of sacrifice, that there can be no forgiveness and or true redemption or meaning without cost. 2nd good point you made; It seems that any deeply held belief can be taken too far (patriotism can lead to conflict for example). My mistake has been the failure to see the church itself as a human institution, and therefore, like any human institution has the flaws and blemishes of humans, and I have completely disregarded the distinction between the actions of say middle-ages christendom etc and Christ's teachings. Thank you for your best wishes

[@killeremattis]

I am incredibly impressed by JP's ability and willingness to learn, despite his age and knowledge. He never sees himself as superior to anyone else, and is incredibly willing to listen to other individuals in his quest for the truth. Kudos to you Jordan.

[@maatonne]

High in trait openess, just like me.

[@tonithatcher]

You must be humble to learn, you must be willing to tear down what you know and replace it with something better; continuously.

[@3halfshadows]

"He never sees himself as superior to anyone else," that's almost certainly not true, the man is a monster

[@Sassy8utube]

Fyodor Dostoevsky exactly my thoughts. Things he believes, he stands firm. Things he's not sure, he says so. And he's constantly learning and sharing his knowledge.

[@maatonne]

If you guys have watched enough of J B P you should know his big 5 personality traits by now.

[@luc432]

I like how Jonathans kids are goofing off on the glass door behind him.

[@erasalams61]

😂😂

[@RippleDrop.]

Me too

[@zeratullotus2790]

So adorable

[@stevenmathews7621]

Adorable, can see they're putting their ear against the glass to listen in to what Dad is up to

[@KauriMusic]

They are the earth (chaos) meeting the edge (the glass) of heaven (the ideas/this conversation) haha

[@newkingjames1757]

We officially need Matthieu and Jonathan to create "The Pageau Brothers Podcast".

[@Pipiopy]

New King James no, we don't. especially considering that we've lived a zillion years without it. plus, nobody ever needed a podcast ever wtf

[@newkingjames1757]

Sombody needs a hug

[@Pipiopy]

ok, but only big tity hugers

[@newsungsails3651]

I absolutely second that notion!

[@TheReaper569]

No

[@SeniorAdrian]

this man changed my life

[@SeniorAdrian]

and my room

[@johnboy1536]

How's your dad? Having a whale of a time?

[@leonemaledetto1500]

CLEAN YOUR ROOOOOOM

[@PunchPerfectPlayer]

Leone Maledetto multiple levels of analysis

[@aleksandarignjatovic3130]

OK Ive cleaned my room, brushed my teeth, combed my hair, and put my clothes on. What now?

[@danielverner2484]

"I"m not sure if you're familiar with that story..." JBP: "Not enough." I love the intellectual curiosity of Peterson, and the humility. Good guy.

[@fabiotieri3155]

*Pat pat pat*

[@hart.6230]

@@fabiotieri3155 LMAOO

[@dandimit5104]

Reading the Bible helped me become a nonbeliever. I see now that reading it again as well as discussing it with creative and interesting people can bring out quite a fountain of knowledge. How many other potential treasures have I discarded by not looking closer?? Thanks guys.

[@douca1]

Dan Dimit open minds are good

[@archaeologistify]

The border between believer and non-believer is blurry. There is a lot of truth in bible and JP helped me to see it more clear. Even though the principles in bible are true or even meta true doesn't however make me believe in the literal man-god or make me pray. However, I take the conceptual meaning of god as true.

[@ejfunny]

Udrakan Morturim i also agree with this

[@MutfaktaAbel]

Ron Maimon you should read some husserl, before you come with your plea for objectivism.

[@Dougy359]

Ron Maimon if you think that then I'm sorry but you are delusional. It is first and foremost the history of a people. It is the history a group of people as they see it playing out in the eyes of their god. If you can't find more worth in that than a book on metallurgy, you are refusing to look for worth. If you can't find worth then try reading it with context.

[@kellervision]

Please do a series on Shakespeare's plays.

[@nipnipnip7508]

Adam Keller i think thats a wonderful idea

[@firstlast2694]

I had enough of Shakespeare in high school, no thanks.

[@MoB_Griff]

Hamlet is a must.

[@kellyfj]

Only plays that involve sorting rooms or rescuing father's

[@dlj7770]

+Adam Keller, I saw what you did there. :)

[@deplorableamerica4680]

I'm a simple man. I see a room. I clean it.

[@user-vd6ec7kx8x]

Deplorable America good man. nice political compass btw.

[@c0xb0x]

That's the most extreme compass I've ever seen - let the weak (even the temporarily weakened) die!

[@strictlynorton]

Deplorable America dead on...

[@helmsdeep9tim]

c0xb0x kek. You need to leave longer comments, not enough salty tears to sustain me

[@Roescoe]

hah and I think I'm somewhere in the line drawn between the two of you

[@darylcox9919]

This is such a good discussion. Matthieu knows his stuff, big time.

[@ThePickledStories]

I watched this when it was 4am and I couldn't go back to sleep. And I had goosebumps all over while listening to this. And then dawn broke, and I could finally fall asleep. Saw the best dreams that morning.

[@Coloradokushy]

Bless

[@MrMarbles0Xecution]

This is blowing my mind right now, every part of this series has been so insightful! Amazing!

[@dandimit5104]

This is such a good lesson in gathering new knowledge from others and repeating it and molding it into one's own view and everyone becoming better as a result. I'm very happy to be introduced to Matthieu.

[@TarikM]

This nostalgia for tyranny you see everywhere in the world Jordan, not just the soviet union, this longing for being led instead of leading and thinking for yourself, someone else deciding for you, someone else saying what's wrong or right for you, escapism from the anxiety that freedom comes with, the uncertainty of it. Egypt is also the matrix, the brave new world, being led lived by society and expectations, by technology. Just because you live in the West doesn't mean you live in freedom, you can be lost and (spiritually) enslaved everywhere.

[@juliathelittle7007]

I think you are right. An interestingly paradox in Christian faith is that only in a child like submission to God can we be free. I think what we are seeing is mankind trying to fulfill this in his own way, just as Abraham tried to fulfill God's promise to him in his own way rather than God's way.

[@Violet-gh5nw]

well-said. When Israelites complain that they don't have a vegetables or meat to eat in the wilderness, I seem to see myself in them. I feel the same way when coming to the US from China. Although I am free to access all the information and ideas here, sometimes I still feel nostalgia to the food and mindless collective life back in the tyrant land. When the flesh overwhelms the spirit, I complain to God why bringing me to the wilderness to suffer from all these loneliness, anxieties, uncertainties and stress. I am grateful that God forgives my complaints and is still guiding me in His way. It needs a strong spirit to stand firm and be really free.

[@davidhartman155]

Dr. Peterson, Dr. Michael Heiser has a whole different interpretation of "Ham seeing his father's nakedness." If you don't know Dr. Heiser, you should check out his podcast on this topic. Nakedbible

[@carrie.9833]

“I will look to the hills from whence comes my help. My help comes from the Lord”

[@KevinMathurin.369]

three brilliant men having a conversation. Gosh I love the internet. Who or what would i be if I couldnt sit here and listen to these men decode bible stories which actually makes sense.

[@Matt-of2eq]

Dunno prolly some dbag

[@end-quote]

Good morning everyone

[@64kdawg]

Thank you Jordan and the Pageau brothers. Incredible group of dragon slayers.

[@MeShellMaBelle]

Wow, this is awesome. It took me overnight to remember that I had heard over the years that the Bible was revelatory... “when the student is ready, the teacher appears” sort of thing. Yet the Bible has not changed. It’s Truth stands with it’s layers and layers of teachers that have stood the test of time, which is in itself a testament to the Truth (aka Ancient Wisdom). So how God incrementally appears to Abraham over his journey is like that overarching message not only of the Bible, but of our own lives. So thankful for these kinds of conversations.

[@Cyprianous]

This is so deep. Thank you for sharing this conversation. I'm only 15 minutes in, but this breakdown of the meaning of the covenant and exile is mind blowing stuff!

[@cynthiaalsup3585]

I'm enthralled by this dialogue! What brilliant insight and how deep the understanding of the brothers.

[@Foreallionaire]

You're an inspiration to all mankind. These parables, with your unabashed delivery and assuredness in their absolute truth, are slowly undoing all the parental neglect and helping nullify the educational shortcomings of people like myself. You're doing God's work.

[@NuWatts]

This was incredibly informative for my faith and personal growth.

[@gamma3563]

This is a bite old but hopefully you see. For some reason this seems to really make me wiser and smarter as this lectures are super insightful, but I feeling less like it’s increasing my faith. How is it increasing yours?

[@rafaelbalsan4512]

@@gamma3563 Hey, I know it's a late reply but here I go. I feel like faith and it's growth is fundamentally a choice, it can only grow and blossom if you accept and allow it.

[@gamma3563]

@@rafaelbalsan4512 I think it was more like it was deminishing the value in the Bible and God to me. Not per say faith as in Trust or Evidence. But rather the way he explained it made me felt as if it was all just a symbolic and figurative representation of reality, and not actually literal in anyway (Like God actually existing). Ive stopped watching JP for my own benefit. But I dont really discourage others from watching him. Thanks though for reaching out to me. I do not know if this is exactly what I was thinking at the time, but I sure do think this now.

[@thabisamoruri5625]

@@gamma3563 I've also felt this way, but I loved knowing more and it's peaked my interest and challenged my intellect , but the more it makes sense in my mind the less sense it makes in my heart. Like it all feels figurative and not necessarily real 🙂 .... So it hasn't been helping my faith but it's given me growth , but I think I should also stop watching him.

[@sarahbenedict5482]

37:30 A wise, old tree once said, “I always liked going South. Somehow, it feels like going downhill.” 🙏✌️❤️

[@cheriedee81]

Matthieu and Jonathan Pageau and Jordan Peterson wow what a great trio!!! Loved this video

[@SpadeAce]

They say the average person has an attention span of 4 seconds... Well, I just chained your entire biblical series today while I was editing own videos for my own channel. I can't say I truly understand EVERYTHING you talk about because I have yet to read your entire reading list thoroughly, but goddamn if you don't blow my mind every other video I watch. You're an inspiration. Keep them coming, we need more people like you.

[@MiahVun]

4 seconds? anything meaningful we do requires an attention span of more than 4 seconds.

[@z.z4862]

This is one of my favourite podcasts of all time, I’s so grateful that it happened! Thank you for bringing it to us!

[@luc432]

To Jordan: On the 6th minute you asked how God is less spoken about as the Bible progresses(I didn't yet watch rest of the conversation). Jung talked about this in the "The Archetypes and The Collective Unconscious (Collected Works of C.G. Jung Vol.9 Part 1)". I recommend you read about his study of the tribal people and how they didn't differentiate between subjective and objective how everything was magic(mana). So the Bible is the record of evolution of human thought from everything is magic to the view we have today. Although I'm probably repeating something you already know.

[@sebastianhelm1718]

can you specify where Jung talks about it? Whats the title of the paragraph, or chapter, I have another edition here.

[@TheReaper569]

Here is another good one from Greek mythology read: from religion to philosophy a study on the origins of Western speculation

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

Matthieu is simply a genius! Thank you Dr. Peterson for presenting him to us

[@anthonygloria5192]

I would really enjoy a lecture on Joseph son of Jacob. I've enjoyed the entire series so far but I find Joseph's story to be the most inspiring personally. Thank you for all your work Dr. Peterson and may God reward you for it.

[@damianellis7144]

You'll know by now that's happened. Best wishes and love x

[@WiliamShattner]

Thanks for posting this Jordon! It is great to hear you working out ideas that are not yet fully formed. What you publicly present is always so well spoken but this reveals the hard work that gets your communication to that refined point.

[@LizzyIbarra]

The children in the background, it's like God is always present... Total Awesomeness!

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

Definitely ordering Matthieu’s book. I’ve all ready seen this once; forgot just how much is packed into this conversation.

[@TheBobby2legs]

Watching Peterson be the one trying to understand the knowledge someone else is imparting is like being a child and watching someone tell your parents the best way to clean their room.

[@Triay314]

Man 😂

[@evolvingerinb]

Love this encounter of wonderful human beings, seeking, and seeing, through sharing and communicating for understanding. I as well found out more. Thank you so very much.

[@dronehomeless]

Having watched the 2017 Maps of Meaning lectures and followed the Biblical lectures so far, I am excited to know new ground is being covered and even more excited to be able to witness portions of the story unfold in this video. This is what I have been waiting for. Excellent!

[@mikemadden416]

I cannot begin to say how much I am enjoying these lectures and the challenge to and expansion of my understanding. I too am on a journey to better understand who and what God is and has been up to, and how I fit into that paradigm. I have been on this adventure for over 35 years and have had a sense that there is always more I need to know and discover. Thank you Dr. Peterson for your insight and wisdom, am I two years too late with this comment? The one aspect of this that I was focused on, that I did not hear mentioned, was the idea of trust. Trusting that the ideal is worth waiting for even when it seems the promise of the ideal cannot possibly manifest itself. Part of what I have come to see in the story of Abraham is a promise given, delayed, redirected perhaps, and Abraham's attempts to intervene and force the ideal into fruition. When his efforts fail and backfire, and eventually come back to the determent of his heirs, the promise of the ideal remains true, it does not change, it does not falter. It remains true to itself and to the promise. It also remains merciful in Abraham's frailty and flailing to force the promise into his reality and understanding.

[@dandimit5104]

Now I see what contributed to Jonathan becoming so interesting. His brother is awesome too!

[@danrocky2553]

I love that this conversation happened

[@NathanicusSmith]

Matthieu and Jonathan and were excellent choices to have this conversation with. The three of them together have such a great deal of insight to contribute that surpasses the sum of each of them individually. I would love for these conversations to be a regular event.

[@tensevo]

I can't believe I skipped over this gem, at the time. this is epic.

[@juanpablomina1346]

At around the 30 minute mark, they're discussing Abraham's obedience to the "Go to that land" order, and Dr. Peterson remarks that in said land there's famine and then Abraham goes to Egypt, where he has to confront tyranny. Dr. Peterson suggests thus that Abraham, after having obeyed God's order, has to contend with nature. However, I would propose, even though I'm not certain that it's true, that the famine and the tyranny are a consequence of Abraham's disobedience. In Genesis 12:1, God's order to go to Canaan seems to be presented as having taking place in Ur, which is Abraham's country: _Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee_ But the story also says that Abraham was in Haran, where his father died, so Abraham had already left his country, Ur, but not in order to go to Canaan, since he seems to have stopped at Haran. He even took his father and his nephew Lot with him. The fact that he takes his father to Haran is against the order by God, because he's supposed to leave his father's house. He also takes his nephew with him, even though he's supposed to leave his kindred. So Abraham followed only partially God's order: he left Ur, which was per the order, but he took people that he should have left, and he didn't go directly to Canaan. And so his failure to properly obey the order would be at the origin of the problems he encounters later on. It's kind of harsh of me to attack like that the father of faith, but I must admit that I'm not sure that what I just said is true. The other verses suggest that God's order was given while Abraham was in Haran, not in Ur. But, if that's the case, I don't know how to understand the "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house" part of the order. Why would Haran be Abraham's country? Why would Abraham's father's house be in Haran and not in Ur? But, then again, the pluperfect in the order ("had said") suggests to me that the order was given a while back, when Abraham was in Ur, his country of origin. I must admit that I haven't looked into this very much; I haven't looked at various translations, for instance. And why did he take his father and his kindred with him, when he was explicitly told to leave them? It's a good thing that he can't take his country with him too... Anyway, I don't know if I'm interpreting this correctly. :)

[@waggy7987]

incredibly interesting conversation from start to finish. really enjoyed matthieus explanations

[@naikhanomtom7552]

The pageau brothers are absolutely brilliant and needed in this current time.

[@dannyd9872]

Check out Johnathan big smile at 13:30 when Matthieu nails "exile". He's really proud of his brother I presume. That's lovely.

[@mbnall]

Pretty sure I just got saved all over again.

[@josephmartin4343]

That happened to me two years ago around this time

[@readthebibleonamountain934]

One can't be saved twice, once will be it.

[@jameslorenz3718]

@@Verdeishern I am not knowledgeable so my opinion doesn't matter as much. That makes sense to me though. God gave you free will, if you choose to fall away you can, and you can still be saved.

[@P3rformula]

These 3 guys are legends

[@ScottAT]

You should read Job, man it's right up your alley

[@Roescoe]

He's mentioned it before...

[@pizzasmithdude]

I absolutely love these comment threads in this series. No one is blowing their own horn, people are just talking about really deep ideas that no one seems to mind or even want to think about. No one is debating atheism like its the answer or Christianity like its the answer. People are finding this very strange common ground built on the book that many would like to think only divides us these days. It's extremely curious. And it kinda makes me tremble to see all of the things I never thought about while reading the Bible most of my life.

[@primusinterpares5767]

Do a series on Nietzsche

[@morbidlyphobese8039]

El Fwopo He has two 45 minute videos on one paragraph, if you haven't seen those.

[@GhjaknyetLestrange]

Just a suggestion that it will be nice if you use please at the end of the sentence. I think it is more polite and respectful that way :)

[@FimamanGameplay]

Thank you so much for your great work !

[@ChrisOgunlowo]

Incredible conversation.

[@buddyschreizerden3611]

This is one of my favourite discussions. I am an atheist but was brought up with daily bible readings. They were so logically inconsistent but I still assimilated them. Listening to matthieu's interpretations is the closest I've been to a psychedelic experience without taking psychotropic substances. I can actually feel my consciousness expanding. Strangeness falling into a discoverable landscape. I'll never be religious but this is an incredibly useful and deeply meaningful thinking style - and beautiful!

[@puremusicdaz]

i have had many psychedelic experiences and none of them came close to the realisation that the actual original bible really is from God, despite man's best attempts to pretend otherwise, and His promise of eternal life to all those that look for the mercy He so yearns to give everyone is a message that is far too often lost in the details. forget religions, they're all cults, and deceivers, and hypocrites - Jesus would say the same things to them all today as He said to the pharisees, and they will say on that day 'Lord, lord, didn't we do many wonderful things in your name?' and He will say 'depart from me, I never knew you, workers of iniquity.' don't pretend to be righteous, accept your sinfulness and know that to live in God's kingdom you are going to have to be transformed. this is why Jesus is the on;ly narrow path to life, and is the victor over death and the grave. you get to choose, we all get to choose, but it is written 'and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' because presumably, many will not choose life through Christ the son of man, but stubbornly decide they'll take their chances on any one for a number of alternative vain hopes for an afterlife, ones without any substance or evidence, but first and long-learned, or comfortable but knowingly built on sand.

[@damonzimmerly1115]

Summary: pursue the Creator, not the creation. Meaning/purpose/life is only found in him. God's goal? To make(human) creatures devine.

[@killeremattis]

Keep going, Jordan. Your knowledge expresses that which I have been trying to explain in my own novels, as well as that knowledge which I was never able to.

[@malikialgeriankabyleswag4200]

ur lame

[@killeremattis]

Are you referring to my schizophrenia? I think it is tasteless to use a derogatory definition of a person's psychic problems, especially when those problems were propagated through external forces not in that individual's control. Any person, who is put up on a firing line, convinced that he will die in 5 minutes, then 1 minute, then 30 seconds, then 1 second, who hears the blanks go off, and then realizes that he is still alive, is bound to become a bit lame. Sadly for you, my lameness seems to have been appreciated by millions of people, which your lameness has not. Perhaps some people are more lame than others...

[@i_like_having_showers_alon3974]

No Fyodor Dostoevsky, Orthodox Church was the center of your life and the main focus of your novels. So better you go study the Church fathers who first inspired you and spend time in silent prayer instead of wasting time on KZbin. After all, you are the real Dostoevsky and not a fake one.

[@busterthursday9551]

the acquisition of schizophrenia (if that's what it was) is not in the person's control. Taking responsibility for it is. I suspect that there are other pathologies at work as well.

[@killeremattis]

This is a misrepresentation of my personal philosophy Joe Foster. My novels have always been about the individual. I have always been critical of the church, and it was through this criticism that my characters navigated their psyche's. My philosophy was never about the entanglement of the whole world through Orthodox Christianity. It is and has always been about the individual moving past suffering, and seeing, just for a little moment, the paradise that is the world. My philosophy is an embrace of the world as it is, for the betterment of all of mankind. That is, an embrace of the earth from which we came, so that we can all act individually as noble and good beings. I want mankind to embrace suffering and to overcome it, so that it can see with clear eyes that which this world has to offer. The abstraction of the Orthodox Church as the ruler of man's ambition is unnecessary if the individual learns to love as it ought to love. That is, that the individual abuse its biological constructs to direct it towards that which matters.

[@bititid]

So happy to see Jordan delving deeper into the text.

[@vvalentine29]

Loved this, great conversation and some great insight into the Abrahamic Stories

[@sawsanalbahar6943]

Dr. Jordan, this reminds of the story of Myrrha, the mother of Adonis, in Ovid's Metamorphosis. Myrrha was transformed into a Myrrh tree after seducing and having intercourse with her father, and gave birth to Adonis, as a tree. I believe the tale has semitic roots as Adonis (Adoni - translates to 'My Lord') was the Phoenician God of Fertility and Vegetation. The myth tells the story of Myrrha, who falls in love with her father, Cinyras, King of Cyprus, and tricks him into having sexual intercourse. After discovering her identity, Her father draws his sword and pursues her endlessly. She flees across Arabia and, after nine months, turns to the gods for help. They take pity on her and transform her into a myrrh tree. While in plant form, Myrrha gives birth to Adonis. According to the myth, the aromatic exudings of the myrrh tree are her tears. Perhaps unrelated, but in Antiquity, the Myrrh tree is used to extract incense and resin and was considered quite precious. The latin word Myrrha translates to "tree substance" and interestingly enough, in its semitic form in Aramaic, Arabic, and Hebrew, (Mura, Mur, and Mor) it actually means "bitter". In Arabic it could even mean, "She who is bitter". It is interesting to consider the two stories of Myrrha and Lot thematically, and I am sure there's some literature linking them together in some sort of way. It strikes me that even in Greek Myth, sexual deviation as extreme as incest and the pursuit of physical pleasure (at the beginning of the story, Myrrha suffers from her terrible desire in silence, and does not seek to consumate her love) is punishable with equally extreme consequences. Myrrha is also banished, and her sin is also penalised by exile, and as she is transformed into a tree she is also silenced. Ovid opens the myth with a warning that this is a myth of great horror, especially to fathers and daughters: 'The story I am going to tell is a horrible one: I beg that daughters and fathers should hold themselves aloof, while I sing, or if they find my songs enchanting, let them refuse to believe this part of my tale, and suppose that it never happened: or else, if they believe that it did happen, they must believe also in the punishment that followed.'

[@-receptor4803]

Sawsan Al Bahar YAY! This is the kind of comment I like.

[@thiagonunes4294]

what a great comment indeed

[@Coloradokushy]

BLESS

[@jesseparks1776]

Wow this makes it all the more interesting that the Magi brought the gift of myrrh to Jesus when he was a child

[@cobalthermin]

There’s also the Biblical mother-in-law of Ruth, Naomi, who says call me “Mara” for the Lord has dealt with me bitterly, after all her sons died.

[@Allisons-analysis]

Whew, finally not a false alarm 😉

[@malikialgeriankabyleswag4200]

what is false? what is true? what is you

[@josephbarry4975]

A female on Jordan Peterson videos?! You must be some sort of hybrid..

[@Falainothiras]

See its bright coloured hair, it's poisonous!

[@Allisons-analysis]

Lmao! I always feel like the odd one out as a girl, but there's a few of us!

[@Foreallionaire]

Gender shouldn't... doesn't correlate much with intelligence quotient.

[@JuliusGaeser]

Looking might tanned, Jordan! Hopefully that's as a result of a little relaxation. Thanks again for everything you've done for myself and your audience as a whole.

[@Celeste300]

There were many new ideas in this discussion. Thank you Dr. Peterson.

[@attrix09]

I hope to hear more from Matthieu.

[@seanblake4291]

As a young gay man myself your comments on the letter you received from a gay person looking for life direction really struck a chord, as a gay man you will eventually have to let go of the preconceived ideas of normality as you age, I'm 25 and I'm already seeing a significant splitting of paths with me and my friends and our situations, you eventually become very aware of your situation and just how different and strange it is compared to the majority of other peoples, it's a crisis of the mind that’s utterly unique to people who are gay and it's not a mental state I would easily wish on anyone, the solution I have come to for my situation though is education, it will allow me to be the best person I can be and it will keep me in contact with other people on a fairly regular basis helping to avoid isolation (a very common problem with people like me) but most importantly it will keep my mind busy for a lifetime...hopefully... next month I will be quitting my job of seven years as an unskilled labourer and taking a massive risk by going to collage to study towards what I have just described :) scary times!

[@profeh3346]

Reading your comment from 3 yes ago.... I am a teacher and have found a life long passion from learning. I hope you have too!

[@hellnaw3127]

This is a good listen, it eventually gets there. Amazing .

[@ShadesApeDJansu]

Christian Finland here, i was surprised for the change of pace in the bible lecture series, nice change :) Thank you, Christian God Bless you and you're family and loved ones Be Safe Aamen and this goes to you all too mr. Matthieu & mr. Pageau Well we used to go a lot to sauna in Finland, if i were to stare my father or my past grandfathers private parts that would ruin the sauna moment. I have always been respective to my fathers, grandfathers nakedness when example going bathing together

[@Britishdude1]

To comment on the last topic in the video. It's also the washing of "feet" in particular because the feet are the lowest part on the body meaning they are the closest to hell. You're using a mini flood - an acceptable flood - to cleanse the part of you that it closest to hell. . . or something like that.

[@panokostouros7609]

Amazing how all this meta-cognitve symbolic awareness of reality Jordan, Matthieu and Jonathan are trying to reconstruct here, was all intuitive to simple/illiterate people in the past. Comfort has deadened us to the fabric of reality.

[@YrocFrick]

Thank you for your hard work. I hope your success will encourage more vocal discussion of meaningful subjects, especially history.

[@FRAILT]

Awesome . Thank you fellas!

[@leeloodallas41]

How is it possible that this man looks better and better with every passing day?

[@hustlehustlehustle]

Leeloo Dallas dat patreon gwop

[@altnarrative]

Leeloo Dallas Fake tan, I think?

[@Foreallionaire]

Leeloo Dallas The complications of living pure and true.

[@citizenofkekistan5232]

he's on a ketogenic diet

[@mehi8145]

Leeloo Dallas Watch Dr. Berg if you want to know more about his diet (ketogenic).

[@ARKSN1PER]

PLEASE do a series on The Gulag Archipelago and Socialism!

[@Sahuagin]

yes, that's a good idea. that would be a good way to compel us to read it, too, if we needed to read a chapter before every lecture or something.

[@AskAmyS]

He'd be lecturing for the next 20 years. The book is 3 volumes.

[@ARKSN1PER]

He could structure it over the course of 10 lectures or something. He doesn't;t have to read the entire book to us, just specific parts etc

[@BluntFogg]

I can only find volume 3 of The Gulag Archipelago. Is it worth starting at volume 3 without the first 2 volume's context?

[@Sahuagin]

archive.org/details/TheGulagArchipelago-Threevolumes

[@makupaku91]

I'm definitely pampered by Dr Peterson's level of articulation on conveying complex ideas. it's clear that the guests are very knowledgeable about the topic of abrahammic stories, but I wish he had a larger repertoire of words so his points aren't so strained.

[@skadiwarrior2053]

Fascinating discussion;Thank you

[@JarrodDSchneider]

Some thoughts about JBP and academic postmodernism: As a student myself, initially I was excited by JBP's new plan to identify and avoid university classes that are mired in postmodern rhetoric. Upon further reflection, however, there are a couple of things about this plan that I find to be at odds with the spirit of JBP's overall message. Don't get me wrong, I am all for identifying classes that bear the influence of the more cultish aspects of postmodern thinking-so that students can make more informed decisions- but I think outright avoidance of such classes (esp. for those already aware of the potential dangers of such thinking) is perhaps a mistake. One of the great things that JBP's teachings have reinforced for me is just how important it is to expose oneself to opposing points of view. He constantly reminds us that the proper way to navigate the pitfalls of ideological possession is to hold multiple arguments in one's head simultaneously, pit those arguments against one another, and in the process come to more balanced, considered conclusions. We can study postmodernism from a distance, we can indirectly engage with its ideas in books and online, but nothing beats setting up camp in the real trenches and directly engaging with those who are genuinely motivated by the postmodern-spirit. However toxic one considers postmodernism to be, its ideas (as Stephen Hicks pointed out in 'Explaining Postmodernism') represent a genuine, intellectual and philosophical movement, and thus need to be confronted and engaged with as such. In essence, we must animate our inner postmodernist in order to fully understand and integrate it into a more balanced, wiser way of viewing and operating in the world. As Eric Weinstein would likely put it, we must be able to set up camp in the postmodern room of our mind, but then be able to decamp and exit that room once we are done exploring it (for those that don't know, Eric is the brother of the Evergreen professor Bret Weinstein- Eric is pretty brilliant, check out his interview with Sam Harris in which he argues for a more nuanced, considered view of religion- in many ways his interview went a lot better than JBP's efforts with Harris in a similar vein.) The manifestation of postmodern philosophy is indicative an underlying collective-personality movement of the western psyche, one that emerged above the surface and into the light of conscious reality, and thus deserves to be engaged with and fully understood. If we are to revivify the universities and reinstate the pursuit of truth over social justice, we must bravely confront these ideas- not boycott them. For someone that so forcefully stresses the stunting effects of Oedipal parenting, in this respect, JBP is behaving much like an overprotective parent seeking to shield his children (young students) from what he perceives to be the risky, chaotic and harmful ideas of the world (academic postmodernism). Last semester, I took a class steeped in social justice dogma called 'Cross-cultural Communications'. Granted, it was quite disgraceful that the class-content provided zero counter-arguments to the information it provided, yet it was my very attempts to seek out contrary points of view that led me to JBP in the first place. IMO I emerged on the other side of that class much stronger as a result, as I was now versed in multiple points of view. Though nearly all the SJW-esque ideas crumbled under further scrutiny (that is, the modicum of truth they may have contained was grossly overshadowed by the dogmatic, ideological simplicity of only viewing the world through that limited lens), nevertheless I am grateful that I now better understand the mindset of some of those (esp. my postmodernist professor) who hold such ideas. One of the insights I gained from real-life interaction with ideologically possessed leftists, for instance, is just how similar they are to the more extreme personalities on the right. I learned that both extreme ends of the political spectrum have a tendency to selectively focus upon those societal trends that move in opposition to their own political values; this allows each side to construct a societal narrative that frames their own side as heroic and the opposing side as villainous- this in turn reinforces and justifies their own hardline political commitments. Though this insight is by no means groundbreaking or highly original, the fact that it was informed by direct experiential contact concretizes it as a life lesson, making it all the more unlikely for the experiencer (me) to fall into the same trap. Another thing about this that I think needs deeper scrutiny is the fact the potential benefits or harm of a class cannot exclusively be determined by the contents of its official language. The written language associated with a particular class is not wholly representative of the ideas it seeks to communicate. Imagine, for instance, a class that officially engages with postmodern ideas yet wherein the professor clearly communicates that such ideas are not to be adopted wholesale by the students but rather, they are merely meant to entertain postmodern philosophy as an exploratory exercise. Though such an approach is likely the exception and not the rule, it's easy to see how such a class could be falsely blacklisted. There has to be some professors out there interested in examining postmodernism and its products as a philosophical phenomenon, and I'd hate to see their efforts accidentally diverted by this plan. Also, Peterson himself has warned on several occasions that anytime a tool is invented, that same tool can easily be used for different and/or opposing aims. The same type of program could also be used to identify classes that value modernist enlightenment principles and the like. The potentiality that this could serve as a kind of Pandora's box for further polarization is something we should also keep in mind.

[@runeyugi]

Thanks for the brevity.

[@massagrabber8475]

As for explaining JP's need to wretch himself from the extraordinary indulgences SJW's, the communists, socialists and other 'I just made it up Zionist' influence being force-fed into the western non compliant even bordering illegal consciousness to the ingrate at U of T, McMaster and all the rest of those indolent institutions has to be measured against the inexhaustible reprobates within them. We aren't talking about measured intelligence of a brand once honoured therefore not pilloried in relentless objectivism of the lefts verbosity (pronoun gratification or word pornography). If you witnessed Bill C-16 senators review of Canada's intransigence against right minded, meaning the broad well mannered Canadians then found a vote entirely opposite to what is rightfully expressed the insanity of Trudeau's destruction of what is true is now clear. Whatever motivated a aged, thoughtful (I presumed) and legally measured result turned 180 degrees. Those people are mind controlled by a malevolent force. As for some wizened marxist telling that you should sit yourself down and listen to points of view without the benevolence of a magical mind say it as you mean it, you are a drone gratifying the old farts edict and no better for it. The perfect Zionist. What i am concerned of truly is those same reprobates monitoring Peterson with undivided attention to the schisms of the land and blue sky for any adjustment to the hidden biblical texts meaning woven through it. The non narrative but constant unveiling of meaning. I see him struggling to retain a validity to Rothschilds creation through Britain's Empire builders mainly sponsored Zionists in parliament. Greedy Guts. That validity to Israel isn't found in Judaism nor its advocates but in the the Talmud rife with a philosophy, as with The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, a Luciferian belief system of conquest. Our world is USURY & corporate monsters trundle the planet crushing what is good in favor of some self proclaimed entity, a godless god of little stature and fortitude. A maxim of life where human beings are not lust but only just is coming upon us. To disgorge the slavers in full view is not going to be a paper chase as defending our rights has been. DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU! No I won't apologize for rambling through the jungle of ideas. This is not poetry.

[@mikemichael3416]

JarrodDSchneider Dude read your Bible and shut up ya Digg? Best advice you'll ever hear.

[@skooore]

"This is not poetry" - perhaps if you sorted it out, it could be.

[@vasilikifromtheheart5484]

JarrodDSchneider dude this is a video ... this post is soo long and off topic.

[@bluemeeni1658]

I am extremely impressed by Matthieu'S insight, I would love to hear more from him. I would also love to have a copy of his book when it is published.

[@sonampalmo3578]

Very revealing. Nuanced meanings that go so much deeper. This opened up a whole new appreciation for the Bible.I really look forward to Lecture VIII now (and all that follow).

[@mirceanicula9198]

This whole idea of Lot not wanting any reward from Gomorrah because it is of the low place at the bottom of the Earth that he doesn't know yet how to integrate at that it is later redeemed in the story through King David is absolutely MIND BLOWING. This whole notion of things making sense and find resolve later in the story by going back to the same place but with the solution I think it is so deeply embedded in us and in our experience. We go through our journey in life and we encounter problems so we have to go through this whole narrative arc to get the sufficient insight or knowledge which will change and help us get back to that initially problem and solve it.

[@rocoreb]

Do a series on the Illiad, please

[@-receptor4803]

No no noooo! Odysseia!

[@AR-qs4bh]

wish he'd learn greek/hebrew tbh

[@thoughtsofamadmind2422]

I've become a fan of Dr. Peterson over the last month. One of the rare ones who even when I disagree with his interpretations I never feel the need to attack or become disenfranchised with him. However the one he speaks too seems to have missed the philosophy of "a wise man knows he knows nothing.". He doesn't posit questions or ideas, just answers with quite the ego and pride. "You want to know?" "I can tell you" "this is what it means". he could be correct, but I find him very hard to stomach. and will have a hard time making myself finish this video... although I will lol. Thank you for all you do J.Peterson. ~thoughts of a mad mind~ km ~the Homo Sapient Draconian~

[@TheKravixon]

Agreed. Especially since the Bible is such a dense and multifaceted book (as this whole lecture series shows) it's a little off putting to give a definitive "it means this". Perhaps there are layers of meaning.

[@anondoggo]

Learned so much from this lecture.

[@SpiritusBythos]

Around 25 mins the talk of specialisation and regression is incredibly profound. To try and undo a set of nearly infinitely complex processes that worked out as planned is the flood. Like the more direct translation of karma; action and reaction, not because of moral right and wro g but because it goes against the foundation of the system=waste. Great conversation! Thank you so much for the upload. Peace

[@kristoffpotter]

Matthieu should be careful with oversimplifying the meaning and significance of the topics in question because it might lead him to underachieving the goals he's pursuing with his book

[@CaptCutler]

I'm really looking forward to Matthieu's book. Let us know when its out, please.

[@markminch2777]

it came out

[@cesardude99]

@@markminch2777 thanks for letting us know

[@blargh2845]

I could listen to Matthieu all day.

[@NorthStrongSC]

Most interesting video I've watched in a long time.

[@HensleyDon]

I'll be brief... Although I certainly can understand why you might be laboring under what I perceive as near exhaustion (regardless of type), I pray for you with the sincerity of someone who was born a twin, grew up alone and learned to recognize early in life that distant, dull expression that signals the futility of attempting to finish whatever thought I was in the middle of. Finding you and your thoughts, regardless of length, has been and continues to be a pleasant and unexpected blessing. I will soon be 65 years old but feel as if I've only recently taken my first steps... I hope they are few and far between, but IF there are moments when you allow yourself the human frailty of self-doubt, please know that I can say with certainty that there are more than I can imagine who have spent a lifetime waiting for someone to express what they've known in their heart all along with the clarity and eloquence that you do. ETA: My apology... I hope that it was apparent I was addressing Mr. Peterson. That said, the entire discussion is of a quality that far surpasses the vast majority of Sunday sermons I sat through before finally understanding that the relationship I'd been seeking didn't actually require I put my family and myself through the ongoing soap opera of the modern-day conventional, organized church... I'm paraphrasing... "No one enters Heaven but with the heart of a child."

[@weirdfanguy]

Those kids staring into the smoked-glass door, though.

[@Feezwa]

It adds such a beautiful weight to the whole image.

[@libbybecker1741]

I love this. I mean, I love all of these, but today this conversation resonates for me.

[@Sassy8utube]

Mr Peterson, I've become addicted to listening to your lectures etc.. Currently following the bible series, patiently waiting for 8 :-) Thank you for standing up for our rights sir...

[@jimringer5540]

My dear Jordan Peterson, God is still here. You will feel Him when you sing!

[@ctrlaltdel1758]

Love your work 🐸👌

[@Kabodanki]

It is Top KEK

[@troytodd7253]

Love this!! Different men.. different studies.. different ways of going at it.. different terms.. but it all comes back to the same TRUTH! Keep slaying dragons gentlemen.. there are so so many of us that are sorting ourselves out thanks to your efforts

[@juliepaine532]

Thank you, Matthieu.

[@Keszler]

Just chiming in at 38.50 Mark. If Egypt was a representation of death, isnt it also a representation of regreasion? Some of the heritage and stories of the Bible suggest that the people of Israel came from Egypt, so its like going back to where you started from.

[@xskywatcherx916]

The kids in the back are like, "Is that Dr. Peterson?! THATS JORDAN PETERSON!" lol

[@sheystolz1960]

I just love these discussions,I learn so much..I so love my father in heaven and the living word❣❣❣❣❣

[@QHarefield]

Thank you, gentlemen, for allowing us to listen-in to your conversation. That was fascinating.

[@JTorres719]

JP is an icon

[@TheModernHermeticist]

Crank that volume and get vacuuming

[@dandimit5104]

The Modern Hermeticist I tried that. Couldn't hear well enough so o vacuum to Darkest Hour. Very motivating music.

[@1blackwatch]

Very dense concepts in here. Part of me wants to dispense with a lot of it, but I can also see glimmers of intense insight. I'm glad Matthieu mentions the ancient way of thinking, of North/South and high/low ... certainly clears some things up

[@visavou]

I cannot tell you that what i found after years of searching. All i had to see was two symbols in the book by mathieu. Great work all of you. Thank you for your effort.