Lee Cronin: Controversial Nature Paper on Evolution of Life and Universe | Lex Fridman Podcast

Lee Cronin is a chemist at University of Glasgow. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
lexfridman.com/lee-cronin-3-t...
EPISODE LINKS:
Lee's Twitter: / leecronin
Lee's Website: www.chem.gla.ac.uk/cronin/
Nature Paper: www.nature.com/articles/s4158...
Chemify's Website: chemify.io
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:15 - Assembly theory paper
21:45 - Assembly equation
34:57 - Discovering alien life
53:16 - Evolution of life on Earth
1:01:12 - Response to criticism
1:18:50 - Kolmogorov complexity
1:30:40 - Nature review process
1:51:34 - Time and free will
1:57:59 - Communication with aliens
2:19:57 - Cellular automata
2:24:26 - AGI
2:41:15 - Nuclear weapons
2:47:00 - Chem Machina
2:59:54 - GPT for electron density
3:09:24 - God
SOCIAL:
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[@lexfridman]

Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - BetterHelp: betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off - Shopify: shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings - AG1: drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil 1:15 - Assembly theory paper 21:45 - Assembly equation 34:57 - Discovering alien life 53:16 - Evolution of life on Earth 1:01:12 - Response to criticism 1:18:50 - Kolmogorov complexity 1:30:40 - Nature review process 1:51:34 - Time and free will 1:57:59 - Communication with aliens 2:19:57 - Cellular automata 2:24:26 - AGI 2:41:15 - Nuclear weapons 2:47:00 - Chem Machina 2:59:54 - GPT for electron density 3:09:24 - God

[@generalroboskel]

Can you do an updated version of your MIT RL lectures on Gen AI instead? I'd binge watch harder than Netflix.

[@Reflection4040]

Amazing

[@clivejohnson5645]

Just when I thought I had Christmas vacation to digest "Constructor Theory", now we have "Assembly Theory". Throw in whatever that stuff is Wolfram is pitching and we now have a rivalry to rival "string theory vs. loop quantum gravity".

[@JulianMarkHouse]

The timestamp list is enjoyable. Thanks.

[@Athegnosticish]

The concept of creating intelligent life is legit but this is too heavy on A.I. philosophy which is to be expected 🎉

[@natei.3859]

I love the attitude that Lee brings to scientific inquiry. "Here's an idea. I know I'm wrong; but how am I wrong, and how wrong am I?" The guy genuinely cares about advancing the conversation and creating opportunities for the next person to build on his ideas. It's cool to see.

[@TheJonesMcCoy]

His behaviour is the basis of the scientific process.

[@GreatGooglieWooglie]

He's creepy AF

[@FloppsEB]

one of my favorite quotes from a scientist ever is Lee Cronin on Lex: "I'm not really qualified to answer this but i'll have a go" which is just a perfect scene of what science is, or what it should be.

[@jchastain789]

I had a professor in college that reminds me of him. I always loved that new learning environment I regarded that professor as the smartest person I knew. That was a decade ago

[@rodjones2047]

I think everyone would be unhappy if all questions were answered. Take away our wonder , nothing else left..

[@GastonsGuitarCovers]

It used to be if you weren't in these fields or a researcher you didn't have much access to conversations like these. I feel privileged to understand a solid 10% of what's being said.❤

[@BruderAdrian]

Lol 😂 same! At least we're out here trying 💯✊🏾

[@java4653]

LOL. This isn't true at all. The rest of your media choices are garbage. It's hilarious when conservatives discover something, they have to pretend they were the first and others failed.

[@timelesswarrior795]

U win the internet today😂

[@DeriqueDeCoux]

Same here. I consider myself pretty well read but man, a lot of this was so far over my head.

[@Try_Gratitude.123]

That's 11% more than me.

[@cupajoesir]

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” --- This is FANTASTIC. Thank you!

[@jeouxgentry7733]

I think this is attributed to Ghandi.

[@severinschmid4808]

Didn't elizabeth holmes say this about theranos?

[@jakenewfield]

I debated Lee Cronin on Climate Change. Here is our debate: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaHVlnlvfc53qdU

[@jasonphillips3817]

Its amazing to me how throughout this he openly admits to making things up as he goes along, or as he's talking he'll stop and say "oh! here's an idea that might build upon this topic". Its this kind of mind that is required for massive leaps in scientific understanding. So incredibly interesting to hear him speak.

[@captainp.2721]

Prof Lee is a bit too smart for the commoner, even his simplest explanations are hard to understand, especially for an ELA like me. Guy really loves science and wants it to progress in the best way and that's commendable.

[@steamhackman]

I'm only a few minutes in, but I wanted to take a moment to thank you for tastefully and helpfully adding in reference material, diagrams, and sources into the video. Amazing discussion and production value as usual.

[@jamesnjoroge1197]

This is definitely the most beautiful piece ever done as of yet. Lee’s definition defy so many traditional norms we have adopted as truths. His uncertainty of randomness, refusal to accept predictability and view of time is mind boggling.

[@katyporter643]

i was taken aback at 1:36 when bloke got emotional about the process. I appreciated this very much. It got real. I appreciate his tenacity. I appreciate Lex's holding the space for discussion- discourse. Thank you for being willing to be vulnerable, because science isn't just mechanical, it's as human as anything. As a teacher this is extremely helpful for me.

[@BR-hi6yt]

He got emotional about using his theory on the tree of life - which worked - but Lex missed the huge deal in that success, went over Lex's head think..

[@dc42nr86]

I think a lot of viewers missed this too

[@JamesTaylor-je6es]

The sheer curiosity and inventiveness of his methods are astounding to see. We need renegade science like this.

[@smmoney7415]

This was the best convo with Lee so far, no doubt. The assembely theory was explained in a very informative and interesting way, while still a bit complicated for the nerds out there. But the fact that so many people got upset about the paper, the fact that its published in nature, and that he's so emotional about it just lets you feel the power of science. Power of the discovery, of the passion in the work done, the power of the many failures, and the power of the resilience to get through it. So much emotion comes through Lee here that I didnt see in his previous times on the podcast, and this is absolutely what the lex podcast is all about. What a great convo. Plus alot of talk about free will, questions about god, AI, nucleur weapons, everything gets a little touch here. Couldnt have asked for a better 3 hours of my life.

[@jakenewfield]

I debated Lee Cronin on Climate Change. Here is our debate: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaHVlnlvfc53qdU

[@sagar696]

"The universe is not big enough to hold the future" This discussion is pure joy.

[@Sloth-zx3zv]

4th time I listen it still mind blowing 🤯

[@denismoiseenko9100]

This was an emotional rollercoaster, much more so than an average piece of fiction. I went from being very curious and enthusiastic to learn more about AT to transitioning into skepticism, to being really annoyed and honestly angry at Lee for seemingly avoiding answering direct questions and instead bombarding the audience with new eccentricities and dismissing criticism as a bunch of straw men, to questioning myself if I am so irrationally annoyed because I can see myself at his place (not really), to finding peace again and the commitment to learn more about AT even if it is not what I've anticipated, to becoming sympathetic with Lee and cautiously willing to hear more from him. Even if for the single fact that he gives a really good chance at practicing level-headedness and avoiding jumping to conclusions.

[@GrampaClan]

Wow finally someone wrote out my exact thoughts I had while listening to this. It was so annoying not answering the direct questions

[@DeriqueDeCoux]

That aspect was quite frustrating. A lot of cool new ideas to ponder but it’s just ideas with little direction. Then attacking/dismissing the criticism just pushed it over the bullshit barrier for me at some points.

[@Mrachsohallo]

This is a guest I didnt know we needed. Not a usual academic scientist. He is deeply curious and can explain his complex thoughts in simple langague.. Its often the other way around.

[@Erich614]

His previous one was fantastic too. This guy is legit, fun fact he is a "Regius Professor" which from wiki "are traditionally addressed as 'Regius' and not 'Professor'" which is hilarious and I love it. Royal professor like a knighted prof. We need more cool ways to address our scientists in the US, give them status over the politicians.

[@juniorsensu8329]

Of all the guests, the Lee Cronin episodes are the best for me. I can’t quite put my finger on the reason why.

[@updatemysettings5095]

He is the least scientific and most magical. Thats why you like him and scientists don't.

[@MrSilver2nd]

"ultimate randomness and ultimate complexities are indistinguishable until you can see a structure in the randomness... Until you can see copies"! That is a profound moment and when it is articulated in such simple digestible terms its potential becomes awe inspiring. Thank you for this.

[@MrSilver2nd]

"The universe is not big enough to contain the future..." 🤯

[@mitchellsteindler]

​@@MrSilver2ndthe universe literally expands

[@captainp.2721]

​@@mitchellsteindlerif the universe is so big, then why won't it fight me?

[@mitchellsteindler]

@@captainp.2721 you're too small 🥺

[@benbridgwater6479]

@@MrSilver2nd Cronin seemed to be claiming this as support for the future being non-deterministic, but it seems a weak argument. The future can be deterministic and full of novelty, and yet all the present needs to support that is a grab bag of components and factories than can be used to assemble tomorrow's objects, etc, ad infinitum.

[@rjd53]

It's always a pleasure to hear Leee Cronin. He is the most flexible and openminded scientist I 've seen so far online. He doesn't just propagate ready-made theories but he is continuously thinking while talking, himself creating novelty in the realm of ideas, at the same time ready to probe and test them. People like him make science interesting.

[@davemathews5446]

So grateful for your work Lex! At about 1:17:30 Lee said something really interesting about learning in LLMs, and I would love to hear it explored more in the future. His point was that LLMs are not currently being taught in the sequential way that humans learn, meaning not the way we teach children. They do not get taught the basic fundamentals and then build on them over time towards more complex levels of comprehension and intelligence. They just get all types of information downloaded without any time related sequence of learning in the data set. I think this is a huge flaw in trying to build something truly intelligent. Cheers!

[@beatrisbeatris9616]

Agreed

[@enangl2]

AFAIK they do use some sequential learning with LLMs. The LLM first learns to predict the next word, later it learns how to work with instructions and after that it learns proper behavior. I recall also some LLMs are later trained on specific data related to some specific topic for better answers regarding that topic.

[@aatt3209]

The bravery of those scientists who push to challenge the current thinking, in any field, is an arduous process, not intended for the faint-of-heart. This is an important topic and I thank both Lee Cronin and Lex Fridman for bringing this to the public's eye. I have learned so much from this conversation and cannot wait to learn more from Cronin on assembly theory.

[@BrandonSchmit]

The problem is that it's not useful. He's just come up with a way to give names to the steps any chemist or biologist already understands. This theory is useless and doesn't lend itself to gaining insights into why a system is the way it is and whether we humans would call it "life". In order to use this classification system, you have to have full knowledge of the system already in order to create the index. Once you already know all the steps, you don't gain anything by calling those steps an index. Useless. Just because you find molecules that are complex, doesn't mean those molecules are alive. There are plenty of complex molecules that reproduce faster in a local environment that aren't alive. The purpose is to find life. You must really know a system in order to say a certain molecule is evidence of life. Lee hasn't described the threshold where lifeless becomes life. He's put the cart before the horse. Saying that any molecule above some threshold number of steps (which he doesn't currently know) is life isn't great science. You must find this threshold on earth first and then apply it elsewhere. It might be that there are plenty of highly sophisticated molecules on other planets that exist due to the local environment and abundance of precursor molecules that we wouldn't call "life" if we were actually there and looking at the system in person.

[@simplylethul]

​@@BrandonSchmitmaybe Lex should have you on so that everyone can hear you ramble about nothing...I'm sure tens of people would watch.

[@chrismcdonald5775]

​@@simplylethuldon't go for ad hominems just because you don't understand what they said.

[@simplylethul]

@@chrismcdonald5775 🤦‍♂️

[@simplylethul]

@@chrismcdonald5775 also, how exactly do you know what I understand or don't understand? Maybe you're a mind reader?

[@jamesgrant2771]

my holy god, I love this interview. To a very small extent I can relate to his emotion and commitment to an idea that has such difficulty getting acceptance in a field dominated by atrophied, hidebound positions. Thank you, Lex and Lee.

[@alexwelts2553]

Woah, what? Atrophied and hidebound,. Have I been fighting a psychic and spiritual and psychological war against and calling out and antagonizing some real ocd, refuse to entertain new information and adjust accordingly mummies or something akin to animated pissed off jerkey

[@FrenkieWest32]

No need to exaggerate... the field is dominated by well supported and accepted positions; of course it is going to take time and effort to bring in a new position, and this one is also not without (valid) criticism.

[@iteamJesus]

Lex, your videos are in my top 10 on KZbin. You're helping people use their mind to help those who don't understand. Please keep doing ehat your doing even in the moat creative ways. Your helping humanity in a way that many people do not yet understand

[@Soulab-oz9wf]

This conversation makes me realise how smart Lex is

[@skatekraft]

I've been thinking about what a job he tackled, to unpack Lee Cronin in a conversation! This was not an easy one. He's got me laughing over here, rewinding, and paying attention. Lex is fearless and smart, working under his umbrella of kindness and love. That's why I love these conversations.

[@tmstani23]

I love Lee one of the few humans who actually gives me hope and inspiration in this world. What a thrilling and fascinating talk. Thank you for your brilliant questions and podcast Lex you rock!

[@Christina-ri1lh]

This is too hard to listen to as a background podcast like I can normally do - totally requires undivided attention. Very impressed

[@skatekraft]

I'm going to play it under my pillow in hopes that helps me absorb the massive implications of it all :)

[@TheRotbringer]

I’m grateful these conversations exist online for free! I’ve been able to learn and expand my knowledge on so many interesting topics. A breath of fresh air over the usual culture war that seems to hold everyone’s attention.

[@evanliveshere]

I loved this podcast. I’m not a scientist or engineer by trade but as a retired schizophrenic (allegedly) I found it deeply engaging. Learning about modalities in computational logic was more helpful to me in recovering from acute psychosis than anything else. I would love to see more interplay between these concepts in my lifetime. The fact that these conversations are made free to the public is amazing - thank you.

[@evanliveshere]

(I’m listening again while I’m at work) when Lee gets emotional around the 1:36 mark I can’t even explain to you how much I felt that. When you connect with an idea so profoundly and basically get laughed at for even attempting to express it. It’s not easy at all. I have so much respect for those who are diligently working on these problems and moving needles in the real world. It’s everything. 😭💜

[@glorgau]

Yep, it's a pretty wonderful thing seeing what the world is becoming. Ever evolving. What a long stage trip its been. (Grateful Dead lyrics)

[@KenLieck]

@@glorgau Are you going to punch your spelljacker in the face or do you want me to do it for you?

[@jambalaya7647]

@@KenLieck , I dunno. "Stage trip" seems somehow apropos when contemplating transition from the deterministic past to the nondeterministic future.

[@renewklear]

This is the type of scientist you want to have sitting on a bar stool next to you for a Saturday afternoon

[@KenLieck]

Why? Is he buying rounds?

[@King-O-Hell]

lol@@KenLieck

[@stephensimpson8531]

I sat on a bar stool next to Lee once - it was at a conference in San Diego. He looked me in the eye, and told me he could destroy my career. Then he laughed, although it wasn’t really a joke…

[@buchnejf]

I disagree that Lee is a scientist that I would want to sit next in a bar, but this was rather interesting. You have to get past Lee's approach--which I found initially pompous and imprecise--to answer a question with extreme responses like "i just throw that out out the window" and "everyone just dislikes what I say." It's only after probing him with a question that brings the topic back out of the window and puts in a place in the room. Lex does an excellent job of asking Lee explain and qualify Lee's ideas. Lee seems to be the type to want to jump to shocking statements again and again and does't realize it makes it more difficult for recipients to understand his research. Be clear and talk something through before jumping to the next possible implication. It's beyond my area of expertise, but I always wonder if someone like Lee would benefit from counseling to help him better understand how he gets in the way of expressing an idea. Interesting discussion!

[@delataylor]

I was thinking the same thing!!!

[@schlotheimia]

Even it is happening for a long time, I have just noticed that Lex Fridman's team is adding images and names of the quoted scientists. I am very gratefull for this to the team.

[@poljakov13]

they are stepping up the game lately 🥰

[@sonekulla]

Love to Lex for so frequently surfacing the genuine inner humanity of his guests. [1:35:30]

[@objective_psychology]

Being able to independently reproduce the tree of life using a completely different theory is fucking insane. Bravo!

[@cameronscottcairney8852]

Agreed, this part was extremely exciting

[@JamesRockefeller45]

​@@cameronscottcairney8852 what time?

[@julianholman7379]

I'd like to know the time of this too, because I dont get a strong feeling that waiting/listening is time well spent

[@julianholman7379]

his idea of the tree of life is several decades out of date, and not just factually out of date, but conceptually

[@Steven_Edwards]

​@@julianholman7379What's the alternative? Parallel evolution?

[@chefhomeboyardee8]

Although I'm clearly out of my league here. I feel a little brighter every time I visit Lex and his homies.

[@galeparker1067]

Great comment......I concur.... 🥰🥰👃✌️🇨🇦

[@chefhomeboyardee8]

@@galeparker1067 thanks 🙏

[@Gongtopia]

An almost 3½ hour of conversation with Lee Cronin? It's like an early X-mas gift! I'm not a scientist, but Cronin has the ability to explain Assembly Theory, and other ideas, in a way as to make them accessible and understandable. I applaud that he's willing to put himself and his ideas out there in order to be criticized so that he can understand things even more, and then try to expand that understanding. I loved when he got emotional about his work, because it demonstrates a genuine love and care about his work, because above all, he'll admit that he is wrong if it helps further the truth. We need more people in the world like him.

[@Fragmentsofmatter]

❤

[@HermanWillems]

That is actually science. Dare to explore weird ideas.. and yes admit things are not ok and move on. Its like exploring knowledge and thats real science. Love it. When i get to meet people who admit mistakes and are passionate u know u have someone who moved things forward.

[@vkman2007]

Lex I can’t thank you enough for this episode and all that you do - mind blown with both Lee’s thoughts and your questions that provokes Lee to put that thought into words. Thanks to Lee and You for this excellent talk.

[@bridgetwinkler3711]

I have observed that standing with knowledge, ready to feed the masses, is always met with mass rejection. Even so, the knowledge is STILL set free. As mentioned, the discussions, both negative and positive, help push that knowledge to the surface of individuals. Hats off to the speaker and his team! "Let's make it better."

[@jamesdeslondes53]

Super Wow is what I have to say. The most interesting discussion to come out on Fridman yet. The honesty of Cronin questioning his own theories is very refreshing. I'm gonna have to watch this a few times to absorb it.

[@Altres]

I could listen to him for hours, which is lucky for me because he goes on for hours. 😂

[@axolotl8694]

I often just catch Lex clips. sometimes I needle-drop full episodes. this one I listened to end-to-end, and at some point in the near future, I’ll do so again. this one’s deep. oh, and I should say, also fun… really a pleasure to listen to. thank you both!

[@victornekhay5109]

"Present is not big enough to contain future, so time is fundamental" - beautiful !

[@cg1699576400]

Lex, would you please get Nick Lane, Lee Cronin and Michael Levin all in the room at the same time?

[@BR-hi6yt]

They would all talk past each other in their special knowledge areas so it wouldn't work at all. So called experts always do that. But Lee Cronin is very unusual and would be brave enough to go on tangents like he does anyway even though he's out of his depth often.

[@benhallo1553]

@@BR-hi6ytNick Lane would embarrass Lee Cronin by cutting right through his bullshit

[@idatong976]

Congratulations to Lee Cronin for his paper getting accepted after many trials. Anything that is worthwhile doing can be exhausted. I enjoy listening to this episode very much, simply, it's fascinating and educational. I also love the intuitive questions and answers from both Lee and Lex; indeed, imagination makes our future unpredictable. Thank you so much Lex.

[@linkawaken]

On AGI: It sounded like Lee missed the point of the Paperclip Maximizer, which was not to show a likely scenario, but rather to illustrate an idea that an arbitrary goal becomes dangerous under certain conditions. He also appears to conflate intelligence with consciousness in his thinking about what goal-directed behavior requires.

[@HermanWillems]

But what is AGI. I mean we humans are GI. But what is GI? Just brute force biologics. Why are not more animals as smart? Well there is a correlation of animals and their front cortex neuron count. Humans have the most then the Apes. Dolphins are also in that row. But we even have almost 2x more neurons in the front cortex than the smartest animal alive. With so many neurons with each having 7000 dynamic connections.. we are just a machine that absorbs a model of the world when we are a baby and generate a personality. We are still just machines with sensory input, the neuron black box and actuators. And some pre-programmed desires. There is no magical ghost, there is no spirit.. and consciousness?? Sounds like a name we gave to something that we thing exists but maybe does not exist. Its the illusion of being alive while our brain is still a machine that has a prediction model inside based on experience and learning. Your personality is just a reflection of your experience. Our personality changes constantly by new information. We are never the same person because our brain gets new information and then neuron connections change constantly.. yes this ability slows down when we age so we can not adapt do well when we get older this also means u are getting more conservative when older. U want things around u to stay the same, as that is the model in your brain.

[@eyesofchild]

Lee, that was a beautiful and honest emotional response you shared here on the dynamics you experienced through the process of creation, review, rewriting, and ultimate publishing of this paper. This is SO valuable to hear for those youth today who have similar minds to explore the gaps in between what we believe we can explain. No need to be embarrassed. So many would have the same emotional journey. Sometimes it’s not seeing that that can prevent discovery. Yours and Sarah’s work is wonderful and Assembly Theory, fascinating.

[@schumannbeing]

When he started talking about his childhood and how he used to take things apart and make computers, how he did in school and how people perceived him... man that hit hard. He described my school experience to the t.

[@EnjoymentEnjoyer]

Same man, same! Wrong planet syndrome is real!

[@jimtomo9207]

How many brains is our current education wasting

[@issyjas3309]

Yeah it’s true, I had friends in remedial class but they weren’t stupid, just assimilated information in different ways. One of them used to blow my mind with Lego, he could make anything but just didn’t conform to education expectations. We know more now but a lot of these kids were ignored and left to their own devices.

[@MeHighB]

Sir, you are a brother scholar and a gentlemen that is doing an immense service to humanity! Don't you ever quit!!! Your mission is beyond quits. My respect and thank you!!!

[@MeHighB]

... and time is fundamental. Otherwise evolution would be reversible. which is not

[@emiliomartinez1332]

I don't know if Assembly theory is correct but I am completely convinced that Cronin Lee is utterly briliant.

[@coryboser7541]

Wow. The kid from Married With Children turned out to be brilliant. Mind blown.

[@theMidsizeLebowski]

Every episode with Lee has been incredible, thank you both!

[@jjuhring1]

Might be the best podcast I've heard in 2023. Great way to close out the year! Lee's take on AI was deeply insightful. I'm in agreement with many of his opinions. Lee, "I'm not just saying we're far away from AGI... I'm saying we have no conception of intelligence"

[@lookupverazhou8599]

AI does not have to be intelligent, it just has to be programmed in such a way and be propagandized so thoroughly by its creators that you believe it is. AI will be the ultimate Dunning Kruger.

[@benbridgwater6479]

Intelligence seems simple enough. It's the ability of generalists such as humans to learn and adapt to a variety of circumstances, but I think we can express that in an extremely concrete and concise way: It's the (degree of) ability to learn from and use prior experience to predict the future. This includes predicting the behavior of of external entities (what that lion is going to do next), but also to predict (motor cortex output) one's own learnt actions and the effect they'll have. LLMs appear (and are to a degree) intelligent because they are trained with a predictive objective, and have the architecture (transformer) to learn from their experience and predict well. There's' a way to go from LLMs to AGI, but I'd say they are proof of prediction being the basis of intelligence, and there are many obvious next steps to make them more brain/animal like and predict better - become more intelligent.

[@gustavocbr]

To be hoenst, Lex is the new MVP of podcast quality and interesting guests. I thank Rogan for Lex , he can hand the baton now.

[@scene2much]

I'm many nights, I fall asleep listening to some history or political video, and wake up in the middle of Lex and the most amazing people. Interested to discover if the process is reversible..

[@user-rs3hb2id6u]

My intuitive response after listening for only a couple of minutes is that Lee is attempting to do Psychodynamic analysis on the Universe. I'm not attempting to be facetious, that's really what it reminds me of.

[@MagnusGalactusOG]

One of my favorite scientists of all times.

[@nachenberg]

I have listened to almost all Lex Friedman's podcasts and KZbin clips, and Lee Cronin is one of my favorites. Among all the podcasts, I appreciate this one the most. Lee Cronin, you are my hero!

[@naufragio5842]

idk if this assembly theory is right, could say the same thing for many other theories, but Lee's approach to science is the right way to go. Go Mr.Cronin! I hope you keep at it and bless us with all these wonderful ideas

[@cag1]

it makes perfect sense for Cronin to have that haircut

[@nullspace_xxii.]

mad scientist archetype

[@cag1]

@@nullspace_xxii. 100%. Looks like who they cast as mad genius scientist in a superhero movie.

[@Brazen1234]

same way sam Altman + Harris wear them fgt clothes

[@skatekraft]

He is absolutely adorable. He destroyed the box

[@EnjoymentEnjoyer]

I would love to read a book explaining this theory from the fundamentals up.

[@updatemysettings5095]

It's called how to win friends and influence people and is in stores now.

[@ruhtranortep]

This is one of my favorite interviews! So intellectually stimulating.

[@joshuadev4960]

When he got emotional about his paper it was so endearing and candid. I truly appreciate his openness.

[@ramblerandy2397]

There's no doubt that Lee Cronin thinks outside the box. But he's no heretic. I find his explanations fascinating as he makes me think in a slightly different way, and that's excellent. I haven't even got 5 minutes into this interview but I bet it's a good one.

[@beatlessteve1010]

He not only thinks outside the box he thinks outside the brain ..his and ours

[@Augustus_Imperator]

finally a fresh prospective, modern science needs it more than ever

[@GojiraScorn]

What are you even talking about?

[@Augustus_Imperator]

@@GojiraScorn Did you even listen to the podcast? Assembly theory is really interesting and a new vision on many aspects, and many scientists criticized it so harshly exactly because of that, we're at a point where many scientists care so much about preserving the status quo and the established vision that they don't care about new interesting ideas and new interesting work.

[@Rick-em8bm]

Also, thus formalized...this makes stuff easier to understand 😊

[@GojiraScorn]

@@Augustus_Imperator You're acting like this is the first "new visionary" theory proposed in some time. You're just flat wrong. I'll never understand how so many intelligent people can fundamentally misunderstand how modern scientific institutions operate. The scientific method has been the same since its inception. What EXACTLY are you arguing about here?

[@Augustus_Imperator]

@@GojiraScorn I'm arguing that the scientific method should have been the same since its inception, but it wasn't always applied fairly. Power corrupts, money corrupt, and scientists are humans, meaning corruptible like any other human being, politicians, journalists, doctors, teachers, engineers and so on. Science (meaning scientists) has grown far more complacent and attached in their positions than it should have. And people who quesiton things, pose questions, and come up with new ideas are marked as anti scientific.

[@HoscoFelix]

I think Lee has become my favourite scientist. Love him every time he's on, thank you Lex

[@michaelerdmann4447]

The unfoldment of intelligently evolving designs through ...random mutations, natural selections, and creative transformations....

[@omid_saedi]

Lex pushing back on the guest being "poetic" is unheard of stuff. It is usually vice versa :))

[@amil89]

​@@reid_makes_artI'm curious about the true motives of this man. I don't even think he believes it

[@macysondheim]

If u look closely u will be able to see how the “guest” is wearing a hair-piece. That’s a 🚩flag right off the bat..

[@simplylethul]

​@@macysondheimwhat would that have to do with the conversion, genius?

[@6teezkid]

@@amil89 Your brain is thinking waaay too hard. It’s simple. He’s not saying he has the answers. He’s loaded with great questions (where advancements always come from). He has so many questions, he’s provoking all the scientists to break down their own walls (they’ve built around each of their own disciplines) and talk about these issues.

[@tatianas5637]

His poetism is soooo annoying

[@NotNecessarily-ip4vc]

"Creation" is to "evolution" as "created" is to "made": What is the difference between created and made? The difference between something being created and something being made is that when something is created it is brought into existence out of nothing. But, when something is made it has been formed out of something else that already exists.

[@eastafrica1020]

So molecules have the ability to create new novel intelligence by constantly modifying themselves?

[@fernly2]

@@eastafrica1020creation process is increasing complexity? Making something that didn’t exist before is part of the creative process as making something pushes forward the creative process aka in my mind a Holy Ghost/Spirit. Choosing to make something that is dangerous is unfortunate sometimes even terrorism is produced. 😧monkey business ensues at times. we must be careful with such power 🙏🏽but never fear penitentiaries offer a place for time outs.

[@MrRaymondReddington]

Your efforts to understand each topic and how you pause, think and question to further your understanding brings a level of engagements that ignites the energy of your guest and truly brings their minds to the forefront of the conversation while showing their thought processes as they explain as they go. Great work as per. You're likely my most listened channel due to the abundant knowledge held within each episode. Keep it up. Great work also Lee, excellent outlook.

[@killermonjero]

Only three types of people can have that hairstyle: professors, rock stars, and the unemployed.

[@christoptosis364]

There are two types of people in this world, those who can spot genius and be excited for it, and those who can spot genius and be threatened by it. I’m glad I’m on the “be excited” side when it comes to this man.

[@geometerfpv2804]

Better to do away with the concept of genius entirely...if you were on the inside when it comes to research community, you'd see it really is not split into geniuses and non-geniuses. Sometimes people get lucky and touch on a really important idea, sometimes not. Most people do at least once throughout their career, so I guess they are all "geniuses"? It's just a silly concept. Einstein was not special, he just had the idea that was needed at that time. Mostly luck. (It wasn't his idea either, it essentially never is...it's always a small variation on some information we've already taken in. The stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, which is another unhelpful myth)

[@markmnelson]

Lee called it out multiple times in this talk himself. It’s not genius, it’s stubbornness, and the sheer dogged willingness to just keep grinding on the logic of a line of inquiry in the face of tremendous opposition and even outrage. The willingness and perseverence to keep on coming back to engage yet again with reviewers and critics, each time with a testable, falsifiable theory, saying “I know it’s probably not right yet, so please just show us how and where it’s wrong” knowing that the real progress in science isn’t getting things right, but rather in consistently getting them less wrong than any other probe we have into that part of the unknown. This is why we prioritize for colleagues with the ability to grind, in our lab.

[@christoptosis364]

@@geometerfpv2804 do we get rid of the concept entirely? Or hone it so that it’s used properly? I feel like the phenomenon that the concept is tied to is a pretty important phenomenon. I wouldn’t say “he is a genius”, rather it’s more like “his utterances are genius”. Or he is a genius “at X”. Bobby Fischer is a classic example. He was a genius at chess, but basically an idiot in every other way haha. I think it’s pretty important to be able to recognize that genius (or whatever we want to call the phenomenon). And even if we did get rid of the concept, human psychology would still likely respond to the phenomenon in the same way, it seems to me.

[@rusi6219]

I bet you're on the "be excited" side when it comes to Joseph Mengele too

[@christopherwatson1163]

Glasgow is pronounced Glaz-go ... but we say Gles-ga! Just a friendly correction from a weegie (Glaswegian)... :P

[@johnanderson8154]

I won’t be around long enough (age=77) to see it happen, but I suspect that Lee Cronin has got a Nobel prize coming down the road.

[@FrenkieWest32]

very premature

[@gmurray7837]

This podcast scratched an itch I’ve had for a long time. Thanks to the both of you

[@generalroboskel]

First! And damn, you had Lee Cronin on last year, and it was amazing. He's the maddest scientist out there. I'm hoping he creates a Dyson sphere/swarm. It doesn't matter if that's his specialty or not, I want a Cronin Dyson sphere.

[@jtjames79]

Cronin Sphere sounds like a good horror movie title.

[@calebgodard4554]

Looking forward to this! Would love to see Dr. James Tour on the podcast. He and Lee Cronin just had a debate/roundtable about origin of life and it was great

[@justinfleagle]

Yes, it would be quite an interesting discussion with Dr. James Tour and Lex. I strongly agree that it should happen.

[@olynerikson3723]

James tour who is a fraud. How creative

[@bazstraight8797]

On your recommendation I looked at it. Dr Tour was extremely disappointing.

[@krisjones4051]

@@olynerikson3723Dude has a metric ton worth of citations and has founded like a dozen companies. Fraud how?

[@stupidscholars9842]

Holy shit I’m stupid.

[@rexwater1]

😂🏆

[@uwuwuewuewueunjetjemuwueub2385]

You too? Bros?

[@50shanks]

no, you just have a low assembly index😅

[@mattiaskallin]

Me too. I love listening to people who make me feel stupid! 🤓

[@jeffswigert]

Hey, me too!

[@d3rduck]

This theory was actually my intuitive understanding of how these objects could emerge out of "dead matter". I could have never articulated it that way, but thankfully they could and maybe we or rather these scientists are really onto something. Its a very interesting topic to listen to. edit: 1:08:01 now thats awesome :D

[@mlastname2802]

The last conversation with Lee was one of your best. Then brought Sara in and raised the bar. Excited for this one for sure!

[@orangeiceice12]

What a conversation. Brilliant.

[@bigtimernow]

Assembly theory is an important movement in the history of science. Lee Cronin has taken from many solid topics in complexity theory. What he is saying is not that outlandish considering the scientific movements of the last 40 years. He has certainly come up with many original thoughts and processes, especially decomposing molecules into parts with a mass spec and finding their assembly index. People will build on assembly theory and it will be an important avenue forward for science.

[@CFLsurfr]

What an awesome chemist! I love his spirit for discovery and willingness to be wrong yet drive to continue his research. Great interview but Lex seemed a little too tense here, or tired. Regardless, well done to all involved and thanks for the wonderful insight into modern chemistry and where it may be headed, Dr. Cronin. Truly fascinating stuff - especially the tree of life he was able to construct!

[@CGFakaBigGoat]

Yo bro! Just finished listening on Spotify. It’s impressive how well you appear to grasp these concepts without much contemplation (I had to pause and think multiple times) 10/10 would watch again!

[@Nelarsen]

Lex prepares in advance, you're just lisetning to this for the first time. Don't underestimate yourself, and certainly dont overestimate Lex :p

[@tkzsfen]

They make pauses and cut out the "bloopers". It is the edited version, so Lex takes time to figure out some of the complicated things.

[@forthehomies7043]

Lex went to MIT and he’s not such a young man anymore, he’s in his 40s now. He’s had many discussions like this one. And as you probably noticed, Lex does interrupt quite frequently to solidify his understanding of certain points.

[@jmaesrocne]

​@@forthehomies7043 _Yep. I think there is a lot of folks that comment on his videos that aren't actually aware that Lex is an MIT-educated Scientist (in addition to being a podcaster)._

[@am0363]

This resonates so well with me.. both these men are great. The part of the universe that can't fit into the universe is the "seed" just like using a pseudo random number generator. The reason why we can't predict it like deterministically is because we don't get access to the seed until after a time-step has passed. If the seed is "located" outside the universe and exposed through time, then it can be deterministic if you include the seed & universe in one system, and indeterministic if the seed not part of the universe.. I'm not sure how that's possible, but maybe that's just the nature of the universe.

[@timothysymanski3311]

Maybe imagination is the step in the Assembly? This was a good one, Lex.

[@tonyabbott5831]

I'm on a mission to watch every Lex podcast, and I've covered quite a lot. So far, two have made a mark on me, Paul Rosalie which was just an amazing broadcast, and this one with Lee Cronin. Lee's genuine honesty and natural sympathy with the universe was compelling, and the fact that Lex was at his most relaxed ever, made for my favourite interview so far. I think Mr Cronin is a creative force in this universe and I hope his research pushes on. It's people like him that live on the frontiers of Assembly Theory and people like Lex that can bring them down to Earth. Lex: "You can have a really deep meaningful relationship with a dog," - Cronin: "Is a dog sentient?" - Lex: "Yes." I can replay this interview in the background just to listen to the voices, thank you guys.

[@quasa0]

I'm so happy! I was rewatching all the Lex podcasts about biology many times over last few months, and getting a new pod is so nice! Amazing New Year gift! Thanks

[@oculty]

Which of those biology podcasts do you recommend? Would love to compile a list for the holidays to watch!

[@shaunandrews1197]

Amazing conversation from Lex and Lee, talking about facts, theories and the never-ending possibilities the universe allows. Very interesting to listen to, keep it up guy's.

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

Thanks for presenting this excellent conversation and creating an even better transcript of the conversation. It'll prove to be extremely useful to my writings, I'm sure.

[@user-xi4ct4gt3y]

This conversation is so brilliant. Revolutionary, mind expanding. What a joy that you had this conversation for the world to ponder. I’ve already rewound it a couple of times, and will continue to Watch it several times to let it sink in Your fan and thankful layperson. ❤

[@Jaebee2626]

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown Waiting for someone or something to show you the way Tired of lying in the sunshine in FL Staying home to watch the rain And you are young and life is long And there is time to kill today And then one day you find Ten years have got behind you No one told you when to run You missed the starting gun And you run, and you run to catch up with the sun But it's sinking Racing around to come up behind you again The sun is the same in a relative way But you're older Shorter of breath, and one day closer to death Every year is getting shorter Never seem to find the time Plans that either come to naught Or half a page of scribbled lines Hanging on in quiet desperation Is the English way The time is gone, the song is over Thought I'd something more to say.

[@jimtoomey9522]

Brilliant! I love that song!

[@mimetype]

Breathe

[@beatlessteve1010]

Here's just one thing I enjoy about Lex interviews, he can take very complicated, even controversial subjects about social issues,science,entertainment,sports,gaming ,ect.ect. and rephrase the entire context into laymen's terms and be spot on in his analysis!..Thanks Lex for being very good at what you do. Steve from Chicago 12/12/23

[@HIIIBEAR]

Quickly becoming a great voice to hear while working. Love how we exist at the zenith of possibility and a lack of possibility

[@dfostar6971]

Your interviews are great to listen to. I luv listening to people who think outside the box

[@DstnyCln]

I'd heard of Cronin before but never listened to him til now. Won't be in a hurry to do so again. He keeps taking these huge leaps of logic, then when Lex pushes back he just repeats the same thing thing in a more confident tone. Like how he dismisses the dangers of AGI merely by comparing it to Pascal's wager.

[@OdwallaJuice.]

Enjoying the podcast so far. I'm tempted to read this paper. Worth the time according to my new purpose for reading. I feel i'll end up reading part of it and stop if it gets technical. Its nonetheless food for thought.

[@ruandupreez6144]

Its like my frontal cortex was being fondeld

[@videoalexsantafe]

The more and more I listen to the conversation, the more I get reminded of Deleuze's Difference and Repetition. Such an interesting interview!

[@Olaerts]

Lex always tries to get to some kind of life lessons in his interviews and oh boy, how wonderful section 1h30 - 1h50 achieves this! Many thanks!

[@davidchung1697]

I think Lee Cronin is correct about the limitations of the current LLMs. In general, there are some functions (mathematical or otherwise) that NNs cannot learn by training the NNs with only inputs and desired outputs of the functions. This means one has to devise special software/hardware to aid the NNs - which is contrary to the concept of AGI.

[@bazstraight8797]

I recall someone describing LLMs as a lossy compression function ie analogous to jpegs. Perhaps Yann LeCun.

[@davidchung1697]

@@bazstraight8797 I think that is a great analogy.

[@geometerfpv2804]

Why is that contrary to the concept of AGI? Nobody said AGI has to *only* use LLM tech, or even only neural nets; it will probably combine a variety of methods. It needs memory, for example, and some notion of logical progression...but both of these things are already being done. We have LLMs with supplemental reasoning structures that can do math problems. They are still general because you can give them a generic problem in English, and they solve it. I don't see what the problem is here, LLM tech is just one ingredient in the progression. It doesn't have to do the task alone, and nobody is saying you HAVE to only employ neural nets to qualify as "AI". Any computer system that can respond to general queries is going to be thought of as AGI, it doesn't matter how it works.

[@davidchung1697]

​@@geometerfpv2804Implementing special purpose application NNs is (almost) equivalent to creating sophisticated interfaces between humans and current software systems. The interfaces would take a long time and a lot of man-power to build. Barring theoretical advances in NN, that is the path we are most likely on. The AGI would allow us to bypass a lot of that - since the AGI would have the ability to learn many tasks it needs/wants on its own, with minimal supervision by humans.

[@haakoflo]

Cronin seems to be correct about the limitations of current LLM's, but I don't think he's correct in his view about the human brain. It seems that he considers the brain to be a Turing Machine, capable of performing computations that approach the magical, and with similarly magical free will / intentionality backing it. I say magical because he himself claims that "Free Will" (the way he defines it) breaks the laws of Physics, which is kind of the defintion of magic. However, if he's wrong, and we take the magic away and assume humans exist within the laws of Physics, it seems to me that most human brain activity are relatively similar to what we see in LLM's and other known neural network architectures. So far, the actual LLM's have been missing some of these capabilities, such as performing "reasoning", but I would argue that AlphaZero demonstrated very strong "reasoning" within specific domans years ago. And if you think AlphaZero is only a toy, then you're correct to a degree. But recent developments/rumors about Q*, Google's Gemini etc seem to indicate that similar capabilities are currently being integrated with LLM's, and currently providing reasoning capabilities at the level of a human child. And if we also remove the magical thinking about "Free Will", agency and therefore intentionality may be relatively simple to either insert or have emerge from training. So the vital point is not whether there exist any functions that cannot be learned by NN's, but rather if there are any functions LEARNABLE BY HUMANS that cannot be learned by NN's. If NN's can learn all functions that humans can learn, then AGI can be achieved with NN's (assuming the benchmark for AGI is "Human Level").

[@ramaiyer9348]

If possible have a podcast with Dr Elizabeth Bik , science integrity specialist

[@JordanHolcombe]

Is there any particular reason you commented this on this video?

[@TeamLorie]

Why does Lex make me interested in listening to Subject matter that I never would have considered otherwise?? Thanks for your amazing work!

[@MichalToporcer]

What he is explaining is to me one small observed element of Wolframs Computational Universe - Ruliad theory wich is to me a correct way to understand universe. Assembly is part of computation basically and it makes more sense via Wolframs lense. Lex needs Wolfram ASAP!

[@eastafrica1020]

This is called abstract chemistry.

[@amil89]

No this is speculation based on nothing. I can tell you that aliens are just what humans evolved into and then left us. It can make all the sense in the world, humans evolved from apes and lost our body hair, then into aliens which are completely hairless. Same trend with the body size and head size. But it's complete bullshit unless there's any evidence. This is not science this is trying to go viral so he can sell books to dumb people

[@hypergraphic]

Sounds coool 😊

[@martinlawrence8427]

Wow…this has blown my mind on a damp December morning in Cambridge. Love it! This is why KZbin is the best. Thankyou Lee and Lex!

[@oscargoldman85]

The most beautiful thing @1:34:30 When Lee got emotional while explaining about experiencing and dealing with rejection of his paper by Nature magazine. To be emotional while navigating the trials of tribulations of life, is to truly experience life. The more important and profound the subject is, and the higher the stakes are, the more profound the experience is. Great show (again) much of it above my head, but it was down to earth enough for Me Thanks :)