Leffen's Melee Controller Tier List

[@stradeup207]

"My controller is okayyyy, but the rest are cheating :)"

[@herobrineharry7698]

We should replace “Johns” with “leffens”

[@Akiracademy]

"The Boxx is outdated, but they keep adding buffs to it!" what ????

[@Emphetic]

This is interesting, I feel leffen's takes are usually more intense than mine but this is really good. I make controllers for a living and even though he is missing info on phobs (its awful to get, the info is not easy to access and it is not well written enough to be approachable) their takes actually line up well with the actual info and what I think. Good shit

[@Encrypt2000]

This discussion is EXTREMLY important especially as ranked is progressing and the skill celling contiues to rise. We need Haxs 1.03 and Panda GCC with Hal effect sensors. Was thinking about a phob but I'll wait now... unfortunate these people on the techinical end are probably trying their damnedist but just don't have the people, concern, or QA to fulfill the nessisaries of customer service. I am shocked with how difficult this is to get right and am suprised we have even gotten this far. If there ends up being no panda GCC or extreme advancment with the phobs I'll be forced to move to boxx. As someone coming from years of traditional fighting games (SFV and DBFZ) reguardless of how the community feels about the boxx I just can't play a game long term were my loss is not due to my own faluire of timing and lack of practice, but instead a piece of equipment that can't preform something as simple as a dash back from crouch (Falcon main). From an outside perspective coming into this game arguing for lack of consistency from a hardware persepctive in a competitive setting is more than unacceptable. I refuse to do the right thing and be punished for it even if that means breaking core game values because people are to stubborn to adopt changes that create repeatable and reliable consistancy within nessisary game mechanics and functions to play at a comparable level...

[@hadyalbagu8615]

Wait so peak OEM is the type 3 sticks and the bad OEMs are the type 1 and 2s?

[@bdestlostworn3603]

good tier list and discussion

[@Rumboats]

at 4:11 Leffen says something that sounds like "wave shapping" and considers it cheating. Can anyone tell me what this means?

[@urd3adnow]

it's the phob's setting to vary how long it takes to process/input various actions you can do. this is how it handles shit like dashback out of crouch, it sees you inputting something out of crouch and says "ok, let me just wait for a sec lol" and then if it concludes in another few frames (you can set this) that you are attempting to dbooc, it will THEN actually perform the input so that you do it. but it won't input the slight angle you did in between crouch and dashback which would cause it to not work.

[@im_Spade_]

@@urd3adnow that does seem kinda like cheating...

[@mrbiznessguy]

in my opinion, any input lag designed to protect misinputs requires a special frame chip which is a clearly a violation on the proposed rulesets requiring a non-modded controller. extra functions are not oem. i think oems should be fully analyzed to figure out the range of quality they exist in and be put in distinct categories of their own, so modded/custom controllers do not overstep that.

[@frjhracing]

I've gone through the code and have built some phobs for local peeps. I'm also an engineer by trade so here's what it actually means. "waveshaping" basically turns linear 1:1 outputs into a logarithmic - non linear outputs. To spare the math explanation - this means the value outputs near the rim are favored over the center most values. So instead of teleporting, your travel is technically "amplified" around the center and "normal" around the rim. Another example is on a normal stick you would get a value of 0.5 if you have your stick halfway between the center and the rim, but as wave shaping increases this value would be more like 0.6 despite the stick being halfway. You can see how traveling from -1/2 to +1/2 physically would result in game values of -.6 to +.6. ....If say both actions were done in one second, and you moved the stick the same amount - the oem would see 1 unit/s and the waveshaped phob would see 1.2 unit/s. This is the most "legal" pode emulation you can do because again, no values are skipped, the values are just amplified/squished in different ways as you adjust it. Finally, it has some drawbacks as once you get used to waveshaped values - it can really mess with your habits if you've built them up on an OEM. Some techs get easier, some techs get harder. And also the adjustments are independent on both axis's. So as you change different axis's - it can really distort that actual feel since the physical vs input response becomes non-linear. The Goomwaves pode emulation creates step wise values and essentially teleporting...which is why people consider it cheating over the phobs logarithmic based pode emulation. Actual pode is from the sensor basically "skipping" values because of the contact - wiper interface having regions were it doesn't read correctly due to wear. Where as a fresh, non-poded, potentiometer will have a linear response as you move it. Pode is naturally occurring, but this doesn't change that it creates technically cheating values. what is MORE cheating is having the ability to specifically and programmatically create pode / teleporting values(which is what the GW does)

[@frjhracing]

@@urd3adnow wrong. this is not how it works at all. inputs are altered mathematically and are never skipped or "created". I also wrote up an explanation in this thread. This sort of misinformation is what is spread because people do not actually understand the code/ way things work.

[@des6964]

what is a peak phob? whats the difference between that and a regular phob

[@frjhracing]

I build phobs for my locals and can narrow it down to this: There is a big issue with various phob builders popping up and selling them despite not putting in the testing that they require to get them right. Since the phob board requires some very small and precise soldering + component placing - there is some room for builder error. Also if it's not properly configured and setup after being assembled - then you can have some big issues that will totally ruin the controller despite all the same hardware/software being present. One of the biggest things that make it a gamechanger is the type of magnets used AND the hall effect sensors. These different components can change the overall way the controller responds to input (even if you have all your settings just like another phob). There's also some tolerances when placing the sensors and magnets which will also have an effect on how it plays. Basically there is a lot of small variables that can stack into a bad vs good phob...and thats before you gain the experience of tuning the filtering for various characters, play styles, whatev. You will see various ebay,etsy, etc sellers just sell completed phob boards outside of a shell...and that still leads the user/buyer to set it up on their own. In my case, I sit down with whoever buys my phobs and walk them through the tuning and everything. I make sure it's perfect before they are left with it. And even doin all tha... I've had issues come up, which i had to fix....but they still occurred. So i can't even imagine the folks that buy phob boards blindly.

[@mathwizard296]

​@@frjhracingI'm considering buying a phob 2.0 from an acquaintance but def will have to test it out before buying hopefully I can see if they built it good or not by playing on it

[@frjhracing]

@@mathwizard296 The phob 2.0 board is a lot more builder fool proof. The two main things that are builder dependent on it are 1) analog trigger sliders 2) magnet swings arm Phob 2.0 has board mounted hall effects (from the pcb supplier), so those dont have builder tolerance...BUT, a magnet swing arm is introduced which could be a problem based on where the builder sourced them Other than that, if they are compentant enough, the cable and C stick cable are the only other things the builder has to get on there (tolerances dont really matter on these) There are certain trigger sliders from OEMs that are kind of garbo and have given me hell even through the actual phob stuff is fine. They usually come from T2 controllers.

[@clux5305]

Hot take: Controllers have never been as big a deal as top players are making them out to be. I don't think any one controller matchup under the current SWT ruleset (the one predominantly used by TOs right now) can be anywhere near 7:3 as Leff suggests here. To suggest that anywhere near that much of an advantage is had simply by means of a controller, then you are essentially saying that the difference in controllers is a larger barrier to winning than what character you pick, which I completely disagree with. Considering we have a Yoshi winning majors right now, I'm pretty sure skill is still the main driving factor in who wins and loses sets. Don't get me wrong, I do think controllers deserve to be talked about and we need a more consistent ruleset across the board, but I think top players tend to REALLY exaggerate the advantages a good controller gives you. If the advantages between one controller and the next really mattered that much, our entire top 10 would already consist of rectangle users. EDIT: To those who actually want to read the rules I'm referring to, I'll leave a link below. Pages 30-36, controller addendum. smashworldtour.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/SWT-2022-Rulebook.pdf

[@im_Spade_]

I get this argument and I think it applies to 95% of the playerbase, but at the absolute top level, it is significantly more important. Maybe not AS much as they make it out to be, but still makes a pretty big difference

[@clux5305]

@@sgtthicc I didn't say there is not an advantage, I said that it's not the main driving factor in who wins sets. Yes, if somehow both players are playing absolutely 100% perfect, then the person with the better controller would have a slight advantage. However, is that advantage bigger than the one that say Mango has over aMSa by means of playing a better character? Probably not. If aMSa can overcome that much of a handicap to win, then controllers-which are far less important than character choice IMO-are not THAT huge a factor. I kinda miss the era when controller johns were frowned upon.

[@clux5305]

@@im_Spade_ Refer to my above reply.

[@tokidoki9651]

Cap. Pixel perfect wave dash angles can be bound to a button- impossibly steep Firefox angles… Top 10 have sunk thousands of hours into learning the game on a GameCube. They can’t switch easily, although notably leffennhas a box and haxx does too. That argument doesn’t hold water.

[@clux5305]

@@tokidoki9651 No legal controller under the SWT ruleset has the perfect wavedash angle. All digital controllers are restricted to a wavedash no shallower than 23 degrees, and no steeper than 67 degrees. SWT also had a super comprehensive list of banned coordinates in their controller rules, including oddball ones like double vertical Pika recovery and the wacky IC desync angles. Controller addendum, pages 30-36. smashworldtour.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/SWT-2022-Rulebook.pdf

[@beszt95]

Leffen needs to have his mic up streaming- the ads come in WAYYY louder than the stream on twitch and blow my ears out

[@therealfilter8477]

Shouldn't this be on the main channel?

[@CharlesRyu]

Hello, what is the name of the main channel?

[@amogusfan8454]

How come ucf didn't fix this? I remember we used to say it would get rid of the need for controller lottery, why is this such a big problem now lol

[@7cross288]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmHYfHd_bcZ1fbM&feature=shares

[@kalashnikov1343]

It does however oem gamecube controllers still have physical limitations.

[@Zxv975]

There's more to fix than what vanilla UCF does. UCF does a lot of good, but it doesn't incorporate everything. UCF is more like the bare minimum needed.

[@mareksicinski449]

the tier gap is bigger between peak of possible performance and bottom of possible performance and the change of that over time which makes i incosnistent within one tournament and across tournaments, and the lack of knowledge in the future of whatll happen and therfore the skill not being as good from playing something consistent overall

[@cooperdunn3808]

What does OEM and PHOB stand for

[@pumpkincoffee]

leffen? Did you see the first smash sticks have been shipped?

[@julianmanjarres1998]

Mr unpopular opinion himself ..

[@Goobermint]

EMInterference sux u didnt talk about that; and u can super glue the magnets btw, ur talking over and over about phob breaking. kept leaving out what broke? the capacitor that they relocated on the other phobs? also if its just the magnets, just glue it with a harder glue it wont come out

[@justanothermanontheinternet]

I kind of like broken controllers as a viewer. It makes players play better, which makes the melee better to watch at top lvl. However, I totally get why a pay to play is dumb and frustrating for players.

[@tokidoki9651]

It’s really not. DIY Frame1s cost

[@evetslon]

@@showsister69 It's insanely easy to tell who is on boxes based on their dash dance, maybe I can agree with you for phobs vs regular controllers, but definitely not for boxes

[@hylianmango8272]

Peak performance comes from a crappy chinese ripoff gamecube controller (I know from expierience) also I tried using an official Switch Gamecube contrller andi t broke in less than a month, the ripoff is still working fine

[@SaxophoneMiner]

@@tokidoki9651 Who are some of the top 100 boxx players

[@CrimsonStrider]

I don't see it as “pay to play”. It's not prohibitively expensive, and I can't think of any actual sports that don't require some form of investment. The simplest solutions are either not prohibit anything and let the competitors move towards the things that work better, or create a separate league. But its ridiculous that anyone would want to play on controllers that have known issues with inconsistencies in a game that's so incredibly precise

[@johnharrywagner2314]

If we’re just trying to make melee a better game without pay to play, the only modded controllers that are available should be able to also be made by buying 100 controllers. Just make them as good as a peak OEM with longevity and everything else is banned. Draws the line that should have been there all along.

[@colbynewton8591]

Yeah so old controllers can be $1000 each

[@NameWilliam]

100 controllers would cost like $4000. If you want to avoid "pay to play", that aint the way.

[@salmon_wine]

@@YURTZYN42 they try to but actually kinda contribute with things like different springs and digital triggers

[@johnharrywagner2314]

Either I’m bad at communicating or you guys didn’t read my message

[@johnharrywagner2314]

Could definitely be the former. I’m trying to say that we can just make a $100 dollar controller that is modded to be the best possible OEM controller.

[@billymays232]

didnt rate wavebird unsbbrscurbing

[@tezzla6358]

unsbbrscurbing did you write this with ur eyes closed?

[@Caleb-xw4tw]

Can someone explain to me why the smash box is five tiers above everything else, I know nothing about this btw.

[@aznbond3279]

It’s the most broken box style controller. You can do some pretty ridiculous things with it.

[@tbolt__]

Essentially, because of many of the fundamental differences between box-style controllers, the B0XX, Frame1, and the DIY's have nerfed themselves in firmware to not let you perform certain actions. The Smashbox does not have any sort of nerfs, so it objectively lets you do things that aren't able to be performed by any other controller.

[@RetroRetro23]

Any controller that doesn’t malfunction should be automatically S tier for Leffen

[@nidunha14]

What is oem

[@im_Spade_]

Original End Manufacturer. It means stock/original

[@ryllian1]

Box style kontrollera is a 7-3 matchup, so melee is all about execution and nothing else? Whoever wins just has better tech skill? That sounds like a pretty bland game in that case. I have yet to see a proper argument why it should be banned. "It is better", so is goomwave and modded controllers. They are okay because they are not AS much better than a oem? Accessibility, not everyone can get their hands on one. What about goomwave and various other modded controllers? I'd struggle to find someone who could mod my controller. Price? Not even that either considering how much people spend on modded GC controllers, and how often they need to be replaced. What is the actual argument for them being banned?

[@-_-kiwi]

so ill start off saying i dont think boxx should be banned but the argument on why people think it should be banned is it makes certain tech easier like sdi or perfect wave dashes or even doing inputs a gamecube controller isn't capable of, you can hold left to start dashing left then simultaneously holding right these inputs are impossible on a gamecube controller

[@ryllian1]

​@@-_-kiwi And modded controllers doesn't make tech easier, or more consistent? "B-but the perfect OEM can do the same thing!" is the argument you hear. Yet they ignore how unbelievably rare those controllers are, and they WILL break down. You are essentially playing the lottery to be be able to compete with modded controllers. And even if you win the lottery you will only be able to compete for a little while I am sure controllers that allow for z-jumping is just for fun and doesn't add any benefits? Even then, why is it a bad thing that boxx allow for easier tech? Is it because people are too lazy to learn a new controller so it is easier to just ask for a ban? Tech still is not free, and my argument still hold "box style controllers is a 7-3 matchup, so melee is all about execution and nothing else? Whoever wins just has better tech skill? That sounds like a pretty bland game in that case. ". "You can hold left to start dashing left then simultaneously holding right ", look up SOCD.

[@-_-kiwi]

@@ryllian1 i feel like you didnt read anything i said and ur having a one way conversation i dont think the boxx should be banned BUT yes it does make certain tech easier thers no argument about that look at players like swift if you say the boxx doesnt make hitt sdi easier ur just huffing copium have a good day

[@ryllian1]

@@-_-kiwi I responded to the argument presented. I know it isn't -your- argument. Am I wrong that the argument presented was "It makes tech easier" and "it allows you to do stuff that a gamecube controller cannot"?

[@iv624]

What’s a prism and smash stick? never heard of those controllers

[@hundrds1283]

Smash Stick was a kickstarter project that like many kickstarter projects ended up being a scam. Prism is like Frame 1 or Boxx but in a Prism shape.

[@MT_Rift]

14:19 ironic.

[@Budymryo]

A well maintained notched goomwave is better than a box style controller without cheater firmware. No 🧢

[@clux5305]

Considering Goomwave (and maybe Phob, not entirely sure) essentially uses macros to make dbooc easier, I actually might be inclined to agree with you. While rectangles have perfect consistency, they are still limited to the user. Goomwave can physically correct your mistakes as you play, which is arguably more in the realm of "cheating" if you want to put it that way.

[@frjhracing]

@@clux5305 phob has no macroing when it comes to analog outputs, and there are also "safety checks" in the code to specifically ensure legal outputs. The GW pode emulation literally teleports/ makes step-wise outputs. (this is essentially what "real pode" is, but when you can program it in, that what makes it cheating). Real pode is when the wiper - resistor interface in the potentiometer (a variable resistor), has physical defects that make the wiper "skip" what should be a linear set of values as it travels. This makes in-game techs easier like dbooc or pivots because you can technically increase your travel time on analog value inputs regardless of the actual, physical, travel. The phob, on the otherhand, with "waveshaping" basically turns linear 1:1 outputs into a logarithmic - non linear outputs. To spare the math explanation - this basically means the value outputs near the rim are favored over the center most values. So instead of teleporting, your travel is technically "amplified" around the center and "normal" around the rim. Another example is on a normal stick you would get a value of 0.5 if you have your stick halfway between the center and the rim, as wave shaping increases this value would be more like 0.6 despire the stick being halfway still. You can see how traveling from -1/2 to +1/2 physically would result in game values of -.6 to +.6. If say both actions were done in one second, and you moved the stick the same amount - the oem would see 1 unit/s and the waveshaped phob would see 1.2 unit/s. This is the most "legal" pode emulation you can do because again, no values are skipped, the values are just amplified/squished in different ways as you adjust it. Finally, it has some drawbacks as once you get used to waveshaped values - it can really mess with your habits if you've built them up on an OEM. Some techs get easier, some techs get harder. And also the adjustments are independent on both axis's. So as you change different axis's - it can really distort that actual feel since the physical vs input response becomes non-linear.

[@DoctorHazy]

The controller lottery argument is such bull****. A phob and Goomwave are still 10x better than a peak OEM. The difference between AVG OEM and PEAK OEM is not that severe that we need to create these Godlike controllers. The Smash Box should be banned as well. Those inputs are not even consistent with a modded Gamecube controller.

[@LosEspookys]

you posted this on the wrong account

[@samsr2887]

custom PCBs really should be completely banned unless actually tested and approved by TOs, same as boxx controllers

[@mareksicinski449]

14:24 terrible people?

[@hylianmango8272]

Leffen really hates Hax, its been a long going thing, at this point its cooled down a whole lot and while the feelings are still there its more of a joke at this points (btw Hax designed the BOXX)

[@ShillBillvol2]

Fuck it lets just play thought melee so everybody can mess up their dash back out of crouch

[@AATGClan]

This is what the pittsburgh scene was trying to say about UCF being added. As soon as you do one thing. It's going to open up the flood gates to so many problems. When you look back at the controller lottery. That problem is so minuscule to what we are seeing now. I feel like we just need ban everything and just go back to oems. Cause we went from "lottery" which wasn't that bad compared to now. To more or less pay for a 70-30 advantage.

[@tenslein8977]

Amsa would no longer be top 5 without UCF imo. Zain might not be top 3 without it.

[@rickmoranisstan]

The lottery is bad though, because there are a finite quantity of competitive grade OEMs out there. At some point, all of them will be bought up and hoarded by the top player base, which will skyrocket their value due to scarcity. That problem will only get exponentially worse as time goes on. It's a really big problem that needs to be fixed. I'm not saying custom controllers are the answer but going back to a lottery is not a good solution at all.

[@AATGClan]

@@tenslein8977 that's very disingenuous to the how much time they have put into the game. Also who's at the top doesnt change my point at all.

[@AATGClan]

@@rickmoranisstan this is a good point and I think finding a solution to this is a good idea. But to get there I still think we need to ban all things that aren't oem controllers until we find a true balanced affordabke solution to the problem. As of rn the closest thing to a solution is a phob and as leffen said in this video. You can spend $500 on a phob and it break because you put it in your backpack wrong.

[@tenslein8977]

​@@AATGClan Plenty of people have put in more time than Amsa and Zain, but aren't as good. Different rulesets benefit different players more.

[@Pwjdjskw]

Feel like UCF + decent OEM is already enough. It’s barely even a controller lottery anymore with UCF in play.. at this point as long as you don’t spill orange juice on your controller or play with cheeto fingers then you’re good. Even ZAIN uses OEM

[@stayontrack]

OEM's tend to have hella snapback so need a capicitor installed for those, also rare that they dashback out of crouch well and over time pode accumulates and makes it unable to consistently empty pivot (or at all in the end)

[@Pwjdjskw]

@@stayontrack ever since UCF came out I’ve rarely had issues with snapback and dash out of crouch when buying a brand new OEM (the smash ultimate edition). Im saying this as a sheik main too… I will admit, that I’ll need a new one every like 6 months if I’m playing consistently, cuz eventually all kinds of issues do come up. But overall that’s still better imo than paying 300 bucks for a “good” controller 😂 Edit: also don’t those 300 dollar controllers also go bad after a few months? Lol

[@-_-kiwi]

@@Pwjdjskw nah if you get a good phob it should last you 2 years plus cause what breaks down in oem is the stick the friction will fuck it after so long but phobs sticks have zero friction and controller lottery is still a thing with oems i bought one recently cause my main controller broke and certain tech i do on falco feels way more stiff like turn around lasers

[@Pwjdjskw]

@@-_-kiwi “if you get a good phob” - exactly. IF. Lol maybe in like 5 years they’ll be reliable

[@geoffmartinez386]

why do mega nerds always have to ruin everything is a normal controller not good enough

[@roberthicks2909]

Lol just use normal game cube controllers nerds

[@sinfinite7516]

We should ban boxx, smash stick, etc. from top 8. That way people who just want to play for fun can still enter, but if you want to play competitively you need to use an actual gamecube-like controller. Edit: For example if a boxx player reaches top16 they still play the set, but their opponent moves to top 8 win or lose. The cap could also be top 32 and top 16 instead too.

[@atreides4911]

LOOOOOOOOOL so do you think every time a top 8 match gets won by a rectangle user, it’s because of the controller? The point of competition is to win and you nearly always do so by outplaying your opponent. Go watch pipsqueak vs mango for an example of that

[@sinfinite7516]

@@atreides4911 I think boxx controller gives an advantage. You still need to be a good player to beat other good players with it. Its like steroids in sports, using it isn’t going to make a bad player good, but it will make a good player better then another good player that doesn’t use steroids.

[@atreides4911]

@@sinfinite7516 yes and unlike steroids the “performance enhancing” solution is actually better for your body

[@oughtopilot]

@@sinfinite7516 lol so using steroids is equivalent to using a boxx? So people that use steroids can still compete in sports. But once they hit the playoffs, they have to lay off the drugs? That's ridiculous. The gc controller has damaged the hands of many players. For their longevity as a player, switching to a boxx continues to let them play. Modded controllers are pretty much just as expensive as a boxx as well. Are those steroids too?

[@sinfinite7516]

@@oughtopilot people using steroids can play in for fun leagues, but not professional leagues. Like a local community adult team or something.

[@EatUrVeggies]

😂😂😂