Legacy Faction Problems & Why They NEED Some Support - Warhammer The Old World - Fantasy

[@TheGreatBookofGrudges]

Just some thoughts regarding the day 1 issues such as the rules not making session or errors. Hopefully GW fixes them I know Legacy aren't the main thing going forward but it would nice at least :)

[@johnhughes2124]

I'm sure (provding the Old World sells well) that we'll get ALL of our factions back eventually, but GW being GW It'll be like pulling teeth.

[@monkeyinapanzer]

It probably depends more on what factions can easily be removed from AoS as the ranges update and rotate as well as narrative relevance. Dark elves are probably the first up to come back and Lizardmen are probably at the back of the line respectively if I had to take a guess.

[@johnhughes2124]

@@monkeyinapanzer thing which ***** me off is that GW has terrible comms. They could have said of the legacy factions 'we're not launching the game with these factions but we may revisit them in the future' which is non-committal but leaves the door open. Instead they said 'you get one PDF and that's all you'll ever get'. Given the prevalence of 'legacy' players at our club, even those with 'supported' factions don't really have an incentive to take part in ToW when we have a perfectly good 8th WFB system to play with.

[@martinjrgensen8234]

Don’t hold your breath. Internal GW politics prevent this.

[@Patrick-y4d1z]

@@monkeyinapanzer I suspect you're correct. When "Malerion" and the Dark Elves get their AoS launch, I suspect that many of the old units currently in the Cities of Sigmar faction will just be sent packing back to The Old World.

[@TheArcticMenace]

@@monkeyinapanzerthis doesn’t make sense though because warriors of chaos are in Aos and they’re a core faction of the old world but their part of the world isn’t even on the map.

[@Grundadrakk]

Every model is armed with a hand weapon, which that rule applies to, so you simply choose to use the hand weapon for the special rule OR two hand weapons for the extra attack. As the hand weapon rules state , all models are assumed ti be equipped with hand weapons unless specifically stated

[@JagdWehrwolf]

Than what is the point of that rule, as an extra atack always gives a better chance of succes with potential more wounds inflicted.

[@Grundadrakk]

@@JagdWehrwolf the only thing i can see is the choice of reroll 1s to wound or the extra attack , like hammerers having gromril weapons

[@JagdWehrwolf]

@@Grundadrakk I do understand what the Rule says, but what I am saying is that number crunching shows that choosing extra Attack from double wield always gives you higher chance of succes with more potential Wounds inflicted. In light of this why would you ever drop one attack?

[@Grundadrakk]

@@JagdWehrwolf so always use the extra attack :)

[@Thaumatolgist]

If they want to save face, instead of FAQ they can just release edited copies and claim they accidentally released an old copy that hadn't been fully edited from the playtest

[@SSBBcore]

Yeah I thought the same, that would be the best PR move for them

[@Patrick-y4d1z]

Honestly, I don't even think it's really an issue as long as they do provide an updated PDF. That's the benefit of them being PDFs, they can make improvements and adjustments without entire books becoming obsolete. It's just the main physical books that need to be 100% pristine and perfect.

[@AM-uw3gp]

Yeah they could always just release an updated version 1.1 it’s literally what every other company in the world does for product parts lists manuals etc etc that have errors found afterwards

[@skarnak1]

BTW, thank you for all the video coverage you've done on The Old World. You've done a lot for us all, and it shows.

[@jamesd5842]

To me this screams that these factions may reappear down the road in a different form, and that’s why no updates. Like no Vampire Counts, but maybe “Borderland Vampire Princes”

[@JohnPC00]

That's a good point, actually. Pretty much all the current armies were renamed. Bretonnia becoming Kingdom of Bretonnia, for example. Warriors of Chaos is a returning name, but all others were changed a bit, so this could be a cheeky GW way of saying one thing and meaning another.

[@johnbastion747]

That sounds badass. Also imagine peasant levy, or vampire based infantry!

[@curticusmaximus]

Tournament organizers will be clarifiying no brainer mistakes in these legacy pdfs. Doesn't even matter if GW cleans them up or not

[@Buiserd]

By taking such a hard 'not official' stance, GW also basically removed themselves from the conversation on these factions. I.e if a TO rules that Murderous applies for 2 hand weapons for Witch Elves (which to me seems the actually intended effect) what is GW going to do? They already said these we're not tournament legal lists so they kinda ceded their power over it.

[@CatharsisChaser]

@@Buiserd except that’s not the intended effect since the writers literally clarify their intent in the explanation text directly below the rule It’s just an often useless rule and a decent one for the few characters that can only be armed with a single hand weapon

[@johnhughes2124]

plus it would fit in more with the way that witch elves have historically been played. @@Buiserd Basically you sacrificed armour and shield for an extra attack and poisoned

[@BattleHardenedGames]

Well said. What they do or don't do with respect to all of this is now effectively irrelevant.

[@twincast2005]

I don't see any circumstances for TOW under which these need continued updates support before they eventually get fully incorporated. What they do need is a single release of actual errata, as they clearly didn't undergo the final editing pass to make sure that RAW reflect RAI.

[@Pemmont107]

I hate how GW already chose this path. They pre-emptively punished a third of the player base, just for wanting to play with their collections. And to make them buy into the officially supported Core Factions. All GW had to do was pledge to keep these PDF's up to date with the latest publications. We don't need fancy books, we don't need new models. All we want is to *not be cut off* from the hobby.

[@Remixersoloman]

Good news, you aren't cut off from the hobby because of this.

[@Pemmont107]

@@Remixersoloman The way things are going (following GW's exact wording), Legacy players will be cut off in only a few years.

[@Remixersoloman]

@Pemmot107 legacy lists are still perfectly usable and likely will be going forwards since there won't be huge army book releases powercreeping the game. There's also older editions of fantasy and numerous other games try, and even if you don't play nothing is stopping you from collecting and painting minis. Gw isn't cutting anyone off from the hobby.

[@Bloodthirstier]

There is no way GW doesn't release the legacy factions for Old World eventually. The game is selling way better than they thought and yeah the opportunity for double kit bashing is too much not to worry about it. As a Wood Elf player I am definitely going to be using some Sylvaneth models to spruce up my army eventually.

[@bingobongo1615]

It sells now very well but there are some glaring issues which might impact longevity- The game (unlike 40k and AoS) is very beginner unfriendly. Not just because of the large amount of miniatures you need to buy and paint but also because beginners will have a lot of infantry just to then find out infantry is horribly underpowered at the moment. In general the game invited power gaming with one-trick pony lists that are unbeatable unless you make a list to counter that specific list.

[@mogwaiman6048]

This is a slow grow project and not a main studio IP, it's going to be years before 2nd edition happens.

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

I'd love it if GW had an option for letting them know what my miniature purchases were supporting when I buy AoS minis to use in WFB.

[@D_Doyle]

I’ve noticed how (at least in UK) nearly all of the old fantasy models were sold out while the entire new cities of Sigmar range was fully in stock

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

@@D_Doyle that's one reason for buying AoS minis, but another reason is that they are often beautiful. I am a fan of some old sculpts, even the very goofy ones; a chunk of daft looking metal can be good fun, but I also love beautiful modern sculpts which can be a real joy to paint.

[@D_Doyle]

@@stuffandnonsense8528 I’m a big fan of the Myrmidesh Painbringer models

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

@@D_Doyle yeah, they could be fantastic in a Slaneshi Warriors army. If I were collecting a Slaneshi WHFB army I would definitely use them, but I don't want GW to think I am supporting AoS, because I'm not... Not at all. But the fact remains that GW produces the best looking miniatures on planet Earth, and I want to own them.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

​@@D_DoyleThe new COS stuff was sold out months ago when it first came out. Sold out consistently for several months actually.

[@dingomen10]

If I remember correct, AOS had the same problem at launch. GW in a couple of years made the new rules into AOS. So maybe we have to wait for the second wave of armies.

[@thedarkapostle6025]

Excited to get into the old world; bought a fantasy army of Daemon about 6 weeks before the liked WFB😢. Thankfully they were usable alongside the Word Bearers in 30K then a stand alone in 2018. That said can't wait to do up a army in the name of the Horned Rat...Legacy be damned

[@acesky1457]

You’ve been doing great man, you’ve earned some rest. But I am looking forward to you review of the Chaos Dwarf army roster

[@KegAndKrow]

I’m surprised that you didn’t mention Cubicle 7 releasing stuff for Old World.

[@ravespartalive9389]

Absolutely love the videos and all the hard work ya put into them! Always have been a huge fan of warhammer fantasy and am not ashamed to admit that your channel absolutely has gotten me into actually playing table top 🤙🏼

[@CommanderCheapSkate]

I noticed this with the Dark Elves rules. Are there rules for Repeater Bolt Throwers and Repeater Crossbows in the Big Teal Book?

[@CatharsisChaser]

yes they are in the main book, in general if there isn't a rule in the main book they will list it in the unit profile

[@patgray5402]

Yes they are in the core book

[@D_Doyle]

Yeah, page 218 and 223

[@vessorine3224]

The K'daai Fireborn in the Chaos Dwarf list (literal Fire demons) do not have a ward save vs flaming attacks any more, they used to have a 2+ ward (killing fire demons by setting them on fire lol).

[@CatharsisChaser]

It’s a bit of a thematic hit for sure but this edition they’ve cut down on gotcha rules like that quite a bit As for the rest of the Chaos Dwarf roster… I would wager to say it’s top 3 in the game so far… absolutely bonkers shooting and very strong melee options as well And 3 point hobgoblins… wut

[@ranusmagnus656]

@04:00 I read those passages as "This rule does not apply if you use any optional weapons (including magic weapons)". So if the base weapon layout is two hand weapons, the rule applies ONLY to two hand weapons. (Not regarding any ARMOR options!) I guess that's RAI.

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

They should do an erratum, and they should a CA style erratum and say 'we've heard the community, we will leave open the option of supporting these factions in the future'. Everyone is happy and the cost for GW is absolutely minimal.

[@johnhughes2124]

I don't play the game, what was the CA erratum ?

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

@@johnhughes2124 they got a lot of complaints and they sent out a message saying that they acknowledge their mistakes and will make the necessary changes.

[@CatharsisChaser]

The single hand weapon only buff style of rule is pretty prevalent throughout the game, the difference is that it actually a meaningful and quite balanced tradeoff with other equipment but with dark elves it is almost always a suboptimal option to use ( except for the medusa which is the only model armed with only a single hand weapon and has the rule iirc) Legacy armies as a whole seem about 5-10% weaker than the supported factions but are still quite flushed out and have fun combos (except for chaos dwarfs which naturally look verrrry strong)

[@mireadur]

I dont see em any weaker than empire, tbh.

[@CatharsisChaser]

@@mireadur When I gave that percentage I was roughly averaging all the armies together and I would agree that empire definitely has the highest concentration of meh units/rules of all the core factions However demigryphs, great cannons, the steamtank, to a lesser extent priest brick shenanigans and outriders definitely give them some serious play with state missile troops filling out your core tax Shame that they don’t really have any special army rules now that detachments are universal but that’s what you get for being the literal NPC faction in a fantasy world 😆 Either way these are just my general first impressions from spending way too much time scouring over the rules and building/playing some of the strongest configurations I could think of so far

[@mireadur]

@@CatharsisChaser my 1st impression tbh, was that excepting WE which are totally broken, the other 15 armies will be able to have more than less balanced games.

[@darnokx9277]

What is new in terms of oddities for the Legacy factions is really the "oh, here are a few new units you never had before - have fun!", while also cutting some that WERE a thing (just had no model) ... not like there were units cut from Core factions that existed and had mod... wait, Skullcrushers, Slaughterbrute, Vortex Beast, Chaos Shrine say hello, never mind.

[@ONI09100]

they also missed units dark elves are missing the fleet master

[@richardsapp4475]

For the witch elf murderous thing. The BRB states all models, unless otherwise stated, is assumed to be armed with a single hand weapon. Also there is nothing stating you can not elect to use just 1 of your 2 weapons. Especially since the entry for 2 weapons and additional weapon is the same. It's like purchasing a great weapon and a shield, you elect which to use at the beginning of combat. I see no issues here.

[@TheMagicalPinata]

I am disappointed there isn't more crossover between AoS and WtOW. It would be a great way to keep both player bases healthy and growing. AoS has been incredibly successful over the past 5 years, so much so that 40k borrows their rules.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

GW doesn't like their games crossing, unfortunately. 😅

[@AM-uw3gp]

I’m not a fan of AOS but yeah having complimentary product lines with a bit of crossover built in seems like a no brainer for any business wanting to cross promote all of the products they sell, I really don’t understand the logic of this company at all

[@charleslister8465]

@@stephenjenkins7971 Yeah dumb as that is!

[@rupertjones5197]

I think we will get more rules, updates etc for these armies BUT GWs bread and butter is 40k and now AOS. I don’t think they have the capability to produce and write more for these factions at the moment!!! Just have to be patient and more will be added providing the Old World sell’s well. They are a business at the end of the day and have to prioritise more popular products over less popular products. No point in being negative just yet. It’s literally just released. Give it a year or so and after all the core factions are released see where we stand

[@codexphil9207]

I really want some of the forge world rules. Brood Horrors, Wolf Rats, and Squig Gobba are in my collection but there is no way to field them.

[@JagdWehrwolf]

Skaven are also missing the Vermin Lord...

[@00Kuja00]

I think I found some "op" rules for VC and Daemons (my armies), so it's kinda nice I guess. I will play the Old World for fun and the spectacle of it. If I am looking for something more "serious" I stick to my Kings of War armies. :)

[@bingobongo1615]

Yeah but also have a look at the empire and dwarfs if you want Op… their gunlines / war machine based armies will be incredibly nasty… 5 large monster tomb king lists are also possible etc. Infantry will not be a valid choice for most armies in this edition…

[@00Kuja00]

@@bingobongo1615 That might be good for the wallet then. And the time to paint.^^*

[@bzilla8566]

I think that in the case of Witch Elves murderous would only apply to their attack with their first weapon and not the second. The intention seems to be to tone down the power of murderous prowess from the previous edition, but they obviously still wanted the special rule to still apply to witch elves.

[@XVI_Legion]

Did you read the text? "If the model is using two hand weapons or any other sort of weapon, this special rule ceases to apply".......

[@bzilla8566]

@@XVI_LegionYes I did. If they FAQ it I bet that this is how they reword it. If they don’t then we will never know. It makes no sense to explicitly list murderous as a special rule for witch elves if it doesnt apply. I think that they wanted to tone it down, but made an oversight with the witch elves.

[@XVI_Legion]

@@bzilla8566 Tone them down? why? they are strength 3 and have no armor, their gimmick is putting out a lot of attacks. That "note" paragraph should just be deleted because spearmen and corsairs are a better option at this point AND they are core.

[@bzilla8566]

@@XVI_Legion Toning down murderous prowess, i mean. Its obvious that they toned it down because it used to apply to models with 2 hand weapons and now it doesnt. Go ask GW if you want to know why. Its just an observation of what they seem to be aiming for. They still have three attacks as long as they have frenzy, so that gimmick is still there. They just don’t get to re-roll all the 1s anymore.

[@argylewarrior1]

i think they don't want to support certain models in each faction. for example, lizardmen just had a refresh. they don't want to start/continue making old lizards (like cold ones) alongside new ones. i think the scale shifted slightly, too, and new lizards are a lil bigger. beastmen are probably getting a similar refresh, with some discontinued models from old WHFB. and so forth.

[@Buiserd]

One really weird thing I noticed is stuff like the base size of a Screaming bell (or the Slann for that matter). Why is it not just 50x75? It's what I'll use anyway cuz not official means they can suck it but seems like a weird choice

[@patchesgaming9139]

I think it's a rather foolish decision to exclude a lot of the factions people want to see, they are shooting themselves in the knee by excluding Skaven, dark elves and all the others.. Why would people care about the old world if it excludes factions that people want to see.

[@thecappeningchannel515]

At least we got legacy pdfs.

[@Manlikepegasus]

I wonder how many new players this will put off(ie. people who got into Warhammer through tw or vermintide). As one of those people, I expected the game to launch with fully new aos level models for all the Warhammer fantasy factions, and expected support/rules for them all. I guess kislev and Cathay are eventually coming, but why didn’t they just wait to launch with them? I doubt there is a way to measure how many new players are gonna play, but I doubt it’s a lot at this point. This defo feels like a beta, like GW has no faith, and like nostalgia bait. I guess I’ll just wait and see what happens. At least there is some support for rules and at least we can use the aos models for fantasy, but it sort of leaves a sour taste in the mouth. I’m glad fantasy is back, but it just seems odd as to what they are doing with it. I do think in some ways they don’t want old world to take players away from aos or 40k, and that’s likely why old world is missing some components/seems “half assed”. Can only wait and see what happens. I hope and wish the best for you die hard tabletop fantasy fans, and hope it all works out.

[@alexmadrigal9703]

I wish all of these 'hand weapon' rules (Ithilmar Weapons, Ensorcelled Weapons, Gromril Weapons, Murderous) were detached from hand Weapons and sprinkled about the Elite units of these armies that would affect them with any weapon they have equipped.

[@silverwolf3745]

As a player who was doing a Dark Elf army, I don't think that I will have Wyches due to that rule much as I would like to.

[@Gumlass1]

Demand and video games were likely not the driver for bringing back the old world. I would say more likely Conquest: TLAoK, Kings of War and even Oathmark were doing really well, and a GW executive said "hey, that's our money" ...

[@raphg6319]

i was hyped for the old world, then I realized they won't reprint dark elves

[@johnj.spurgin7037]

I SUSPECT that that is contingent on a second edition.

[@XaryLoon]

Murderous in the Dark Elf can be used only by hero and the Medusa on foot

[@DerOrk]

The Legacy Armies turned out to be a huge disapointment for me. Both special rules and core units that used to define some of those armies' identities are no where to be found. An abysmal selection of allies to chose from, and no ability to bring legacy armies as allies to core armies. No named characters, or the ability to reasonably re-create many of the most important ones. And an overall lack of polish and care when it comes to the rules. And ofcourse non-stop reminders by GW that we will get nada support going forward. As promising as ToW's Core Rules look like, this is the kind of blunder that could kill the edition in its infancy. As someone with a Skaven army I have absolutely zero desire to revive it for such a disapointing army list. Can't even write a decent Clan Pestilens list.

[@commentarytalk1446]

Agree, it's disappointing and low-effort from GW. Better to use the old Army books and cobble those into OW somehow maybe?

[@Pemmont107]

Clan Pestilens: 1 Plague Priest per 1,000pts 1 unit of Plague Monks per Plague Priest... Yeah, it's not great.

[@BittermanAndy]

Anyone who doesn't allow Core armies to take Legacy allies (from Legacy armies that can take that Core army as allies) isn't someone you want to be playing games against. Example: Chaos Dwarfs can take Warriors of Chaos allies... so OF COURSE Warriors of Chaos can take Chaos Dwarfs as allies. Ignore GW not bothering to mention that, of course they can.

[@MissZencefil]

Cauldron of Blood cannot cast it's bound spell in combat, has a movement of 2 on it's own, has frenzy so it *must charge*. It can't reliably charge without an infantry group of at least 10 bodies. And if it charges... it cannot cast it's bound spell!! They tried to do Cauldron of Blood of 7th edition in the new model. It has to sit back like a Cascet of Souls while being costed and modelled for close combat. It is awful for 220 pts. Bloodwrack Shrine has frenzy too, it has a powerful shooting weapon but it must charge... With a M2 again with dragged along. Murderous as others pointed out, cannot be used by %90 of the units. Cavalry, who can use the rule when they are charged or after a round of combat... DOESNT EVEN HAVE THE RULE. Dark Riders and Cold One Riders doesn't even have it! We played a game just yet, and witches were ok... but we used murderous off course! RaW can't use murderous is so silly, so bad it feels like an oversight.

[@zomby138]

To be clear, the Cauldron of Blood CAN cast it's spell in combat. It has a range of "self", which means it can be cast in combat. Re-read the magic part of the rulebook.

[@LegateGallus]

So technically, a stegadon is equipped with a great bow or giant blowpipes, not the crew. And if I'm reading the chariot rules correctly, that means you need to use the stegadon's balitic skill of 0 to shoot. Which makes no sense. Also I think RAW you can only take an ancient stegadon as a mount? And that's just one extra example so these are kinda a mess.

[@eskhaphey2873]

lol... similarly with Howdah where your enemy uses the Skinks WS not the Stegadon's XD

[@GaalorthEricson]

I think you are slightly incorrect on the second statement, RAW says Carnosaurs can Only be included as mounts, Stegadons Can be included Slight difference :)

[@jdrobertson42]

Historically my stegadons have hit like they are BS0 anyway, so no real change…

[@LegateGallus]

​@GaalorthEricson yeah ancient stegs just aren't in the grand army list. So it's just a bit unclear to me. It'd be nice to know if I can use the skink chief's BS to shoot. Also just pointing out that with the howdah rule you can fire the great bow in a 360° arc.

[@TheCoyote808]

This is a long game sort of move. we need to show GW that the armies we want to play are for both their "flagship" fantasy game AOS and for TOW. I for one will be grabbing three of those Ogre Vanguard boxes, a few boxes of Iron Guts, a pair of Butcher and Fire Belly models for a "new sigmar" army but in reality it's for starting a new TOW army. Gotta have somebody for my Bretonnian/Vampire army to fight right?

[@misterphoenyxx5159]

I don't know why you are surprised at any of this. This is classic GW. What they are doing with Old World is no different than "Legends" for 40k. They just can't be bothered to make rules for those factions. It's not in the "vision".

[@TheCharlemang]

New player here, but ive seen alot of community support for oldhammer. I wonder if there will be an errata that comes out that becomes the community standard for legacy stuff.

[@georgefinnegan2369]

I don't see what Murderous has to do with what weapon Dark Elves have equipped. GW forgot to put moves through cover on the gigantic spiders.

[@stoephil]

The Vampires should have either more items or a vampiric power that lets them be a cast spell in armor, the combat + casting is one of their strengths and the nerfs to casting spells / dispel in combat is already enough. Let them cast spells in armor. It's also sad they are not anymore wizards by default. I feel people will often end up with either a vampire count with a 30 point tax to be general without being able to cast a spell, or they'll grab a necromancer next to their count to be their general even if lorewise a vampire should be above.

[@jonnydeathstar-wotreplays2406]

Had to pause at the Witch Elves / Murderous part. To me it seems obvious you either choose to fight with either two hand weapons, or 1 hand weapon and use Murderous. So vs low toughness opponents you use more attacks, vs high toughness you use fewer attacks and Murderous

[@CatharsisChaser]

Even then it’s almost always a better decision to go with more attacks since having two potential chances at a 6 to wound is better than 1 only re rolling a one This is compounded even especially considering a substantial percentage of the units with murderous also have poisonous attacks The rule is just kinda bad tbh especially since its supposed to be a mirror of the HE ithilmar weapons which gives some of their elite high weapon skill archers a re roll to hit of one on their backup hand weapons

[@DrDole007]

So then you are paying less per witch elf since you aren’t taking the second weapon?

[@jonnydeathstar-wotreplays2406]

@@CatharsisChaser yeah, you are right they are not equal, but you still have the choice between using one weapon or two. Just being equipped with two weapons shouldn’t negate the murderous rule.

[@jonnydeathstar-wotreplays2406]

@@DrDole007 or, you’re getting an extra power for free

[@CatharsisChaser]

@@jonnydeathstar-wotreplays2406 sure it’s a choice but not one you will realistically ever make, it should have been all hand weapons or on the charge imho Even on charging witch elves with 3 attacks it’s not ridiculously game breaking, but it is what it is

[@buchnejf]

I want to listen to your videos, but it felt like 10 minutes discussing disappointments and it takes my excitement way from this release. However, thank you for the overall high-quality and work that you do! As a counterpoint, Games Workshop said what they were going to do for a long time: release free lists to try old world using unsupported legacy armies. They delivered on the promise. Although I don't play kill team, the lists reminded me of compendium kill team lists. Comparing Dark Elves to high elves and wood elves, I saw fewer rules and fewer risks taken with Dark Elves. There were no DE stand outs or anything really cool, while I felt that way about both HE and WE. There was a lot of stuff released so of course there were mistakes. It's fine to hold on hope that legacy armies will receive more support, but what I observed in your video is that your issues is you don't want legacy armies to be unsupported armies.

[@cristhianmlr]

I'm sure some of them will show up when Cathay and Kislev join the tabletop and the others when they need an expansion pack

[@thelysarians8118]

True. It's interesting that Kislev n Cathay were not mentioned in the 9 factions GW said we should be looking to play in long term. Either they're backtracking on releasing these two factions as a range, or they do plan on releasing them at some stage down the line. Question is, will there be other factions released along side them (given if ToW does well) which were also not mentioned as the original nine.

[@flufflez013]

Man good thing I didn’t buy an entire Lizardmen army just to play the Old World… oh wait…

[@blastbeatpie3239]

Me too, but we can still use them as it's only official tournies where they can't be used. The word is all other tournament organisers will allow and embrace them even. Obviously casual games will be absolutely fine too :)

[@mcyolicjones9081]

Hopefully they'll get around to fixing these silly things soon as just free PDFs. That's actually a good way to go about it if you ask me.. If you do release a more polished book later on you're more likely to have this stuff ironed out. It's only helped people like you point these things out early and often.. GW hasn't fully accepted it yetn(and I'll catch some flak for this, just like I did when I said it would be back all those years ago) but this is a flagship game. It's largest failing has been neglect and this started long before they took it off the shelves. Most don't care if they call the models AoS or whatever as long as they can be used in all the games they play, be they skirmish, mass combat or roleplay. Eventually they'll realize they're selling more models and that's a happy bottom line.

[@richardburke8566]

Lol I don't believe GW extensively play tested the rules at all for the legacy factions.

[@mogwaiman6048]

of course they didn't, legacy is another word for legends. they already said these factions aren't getting updated.

[@chiddy786]

I have NO hope GW will fix these or ever come back to them. I think this is it. This is the same thing that happened for AoS when it started. That's a flagship game. If their legacy favtions don't get updates, TOW won't. They've made this clear and definite. This is it. They're done with these. Which is a shame. I'm not keen on any of the other armies and all my old ones are legacy. I was super exciting for Kislev but I guess thats 4 years away now. This game is clearly a passion project for a small team that has also clearly been hamstrung by the GW executives. GW seem to be trying to stifle this at every turn. Their lack of faith in and suport for this will ultimate cause their to have a spike of interest that goes down and away as people realise, almost NO new minis, NO new factions as initially teased. NO stock of the limited old minis they are supplying. Yet you can see the passion that went into making this, some of these community posts are clearly filled with love and reverence for this game. I wish that the executives had a bit more of that passion.

[@bradclose4883]

thanks for brining up the witch elf (hadg cauldron, ect) murderous problem, how annoying!!!!! my guess is that they meant that if you PURCHASE an upgrade to magic or two hand weapons that you loose it

[@patgray5402]

I think it's silly that everyone is freaking out. OF COURSSE they will be updated in the second edition which will probably come out in like 3.5 years. They can't release every army in one edition.

[@MissZencefil]

They just released all the armies. Just don't say "we playtested and meticulously written these rules" when having such OBVIOUS problems with some armies. We played just 1 game and they are glaring problems not some tiny meeny odd interaction clash.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

TOW is a sidegame like Horus Heresy, so we shouldn't be using mainline game edition timetables. Its 2nd edition will likely be 10 years from now.

[@patgray5402]

How long did 30k first edition last?@@stephenjenkins7971

[@madgt1239]

Its very self damaging. 9th age or the Warhammer project arose and thrives because people wants to play their factions. By making legacy factions and not supporting them, GW are just sending those people right back!

[@shagmetz]

I wouldn't doubt GW purposely left these discrepancies to deter people from using them in tournaments

[@cmxpiipl]

Nah it's just gw being gw. I don't recall a single book from them that didn't have errors or need for clarification on weirdly written rules. People are people and writing airtight rules is difficult escpecially when they are complex like whfb.

[@BittermanAndy]

Malice / stupidity etc. etc.

[@XVI_Legion]

That witch elves rule NEEDS to be fixed.

[@andrewpavone5429]

Did you know loads of people who pre ordered the books still don't have them 4 days after release. There seems to have been no point pre ordering at all

[@BittermanAndy]

*Raises hand* yeah, I'm one of them.

[@SkySlug12]

Did you not think of the Hobgoblins??

[@wroot1]

Murderous for Witch Elves is quite a big problem. really lame error (if it is, in fact, an error)

[@nathanstruble2177]

Pretty sure the Murderous thing for Witch Elves isn't actually an issue since you can choose to use 1 Hand Weapon instead of 2. It just gives them a bit more flexibility.

[@detorrV2]

yeah, everyone is assumed to have a hand weapon by default

[@MissZencefil]

"durr we are using two daggers instead of one so I lost my appetitude for murder" is just bad narrative and game design. No one's going to use Murderous over 3 attacks.

[@detorrV2]

@@MissZencefil "narrative game design" has its limitations. But it is true that among the rules limited to hand weapon it is the worst by far.

[@CatharsisChaser]

Except for the fact that it is almost always strictly worse to get one less attack just for the possibility of re rolling a one to wound, exponentially so when alot of the units with murderous have poisoned attacks

[@alphshift7857]

what is there to be confused about? they don't want you to play with legacy armies, that's all

[@mogwaiman6048]

the amount of copium and delusion over legacy factions is mind boggling.

[@egilgr]

Big fan, but I think you are feeding the drama here. By no means do these issues seem to be widespread in the pdf rules. The two examples you mention are the only ones I've seen pointed out, and of those only the first one is arguably a mistake. (clearly a typo) which can easily be house rules one way or the other. As for murderous, which elves CAN use it, they will just forego the additional attack from their extra hand weapon. So it's a tradeoff, same as with all the other factions that have a rule that only applies to hand weapons. So unless there are way more issues like this (which you imply but don't point out) it seems a bit bratty to say that the legacy pdfs are not up to standard. I mean, it's 1 typo.

[@Aaron-wv5si]

Yup, I had the same thought. There seems to be some portion of the community that REALLY wants to believe that the Legacy factions were an afterthought. I've got the core book and the Forces of Fantasy book. I've looked over the Legacy factions I'm interested in (Vampire Counts and Lizardmen). Just as much care and attention was put into the Legacy factions as there others. A couple minor mistakes in the PDFs aren't indicative of lack of care, or at least not any more than GW's normal issues, it's just par for the course with all of GW's rules, especially at a first pass.

[@iikkakangas2586]

its not a tradeoff. its almost always strictly worse to use the murderous instead of extra attack. even more so with poison. so they fucked it up

[@mogwaiman6048]

GW already said it isn't happening, they want people playing the core factions. 🤷‍♂

[@jeanclaudejunior]

YKW? So do Grand Cathay, Nippon, Kingdoms of Ind, Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes, Norsca, Araby and Kislev

[@angemalaurie6074]

I can't even buy beastmen minis :(

[@charleslister8465]

Yeah agree completly - no consistantancy in what is legacy and what is not.... just foolish

[@andrewcharlton6080]

This isn’t a balance issue or a lack of care because of “legacy factions”. They are simply errors that can be fixed in an FAQ with feedback. Even core factions have some of these issues and it’s GW so why is this a surprise to long standing players. I will admit though that there are far fewer issues with TOW compared to other GW big game releases. Before people say “no support”, an FAQ to fix errors is not an ongoing support issue. GW has issued FAQs for 40K and AoS when there have been errors in legacy rules so it’ll happen for TOW too. Also I don’t see a noticeable difference in power levels between core and legacy factions, the balance is quite good. I’m nervous about what the legacy status will mean long term for my Vampire Counts but right now there’s nothing wrong with the legacy releases and we need to stop trying to make big issues where none or only minor ones exist

[@GHStudios1000]

My Forces of Fantasy boom got lost in the mail 😭. Need this refund to hit so I can try to hopefully find another. After two delays…. I hate the US Postal service

[@TheLeeBC]

I expect GW to not fix anything. Which is for the best. The more the community takes control of this project the better for everyone. GW and the community aren't aligned in their vision for fantasy. I'd rather GW just disappoint us until they anoint us (Use our homebrew and pretend it was their idea.)

[@richardreviewstv]

Didn’t want a kaddi destroyer anyway

[@SleepySlann]

They really have been half-assing this all the way through. The legacy documents are all littered with errors and cutbacks. I am pretty disappointed in the old world. Thankfully, there are better alternatives out there. But convincing players to play something other than warhammer is hard.

[@keitholiver6152]

Some of the rules clashing is a bad look. Simple faq and errata will fix these issues. Witch elves are one of the best units for delves. Far superior to SoS for example. Regarding the legacy armies, the two strongest armies now are ogres and chorfs. So it isn't all bad

[@mauroferrari5518]

You hit the nail on the head with this one. It is a no brainer, Seraphon or Lizardmen, who cares? You are selling more, with the added benefit that you might get TOW or AOS players to the other system, and STILL sell them all the relative books, blah, blah, blah.

[@DrDole007]

Not to mention they took the fantasy models to make AoS but now they don’t them to go back to fantasy.

[@mauroferrari5518]

@@DrDole007 yeah well, none forbids you to buy 30 saurus warriors and put them in ranks. Greenstuffworld is having a sale on bases right now. The point is not that the ranges are mutually exclusive, but that they are actually tryjng NOT to increase sales on an existing product.

[@StraySutorei]

Since Skaven - or any other faction I'm actually interested in - won't receive any love, I'm simply not interested in Old World anymore. I'm just disappointed.

[@BattleHardenedGames]

I like your channel, but respectfully, I would suggest that you are assuming far too little community power here. A few errata or FAQs can easily be resolved. The army lists are out. If they're serviceable, those factions are back in business- full stop. They are more "supported" than many other ranges via the current availability of appropriate AOS figures, plus there is a clear emphasis on retro models in this edition given what we see with the Orcs and Goblins news.

[@NisGaarde]

The concept of the legacy armies makes no sense to me. Why would GW leave money on the table like that? When they have the capacity to produce on demand?

[@JStruggers]

GW want people to buy Old World Armies and not just used their AoS armies with 3rd party base converters. I guess they are gambling this will make them money in the long run.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Tbh, I doubt they can support making a (kinda) new game with so many factions. They're doing the legacy thing likely to test of TOW can even be profitable.

[@Coerciveutopian]

I really don't understand GW's insistence on not supporting half the factions in the game

[@mogwaiman6048]

Because this isn't a 9th edition, it's a specialist studio IP, it's a HH for fantasy players.

[@Coerciveutopian]

HH?@@mogwaiman6048

[@sururu6]

another glaring failure is cold one mount. always was the same on lizardmen and dark elves, since they are the same mount. but now both has same cost, same stats BUT the dark elf one has +1Tough ..... because yes. why lizardmen one dont improve his Init and WS to make up for his failures? or is at least cheaper? lizards scaly skin as written is the same as armor now.... faction is the slowest in game, need to take a punch otherwise would never be able to atack, so they always had scaly armor plus normal armors, now nop. they are slower, squishier and more expensive than elves now per example.. every pdf i have seen is clearly worse than normal armys, not by so far, they are playable, but still behind and wont get anything more, while supported one will get better with the time, makng the gap wider with every update

[@diegocamacho6477]

All of them except Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs already have current ranges. This just seems dumb.

[@LSTPcobra]

Dark Elves have a current range still. 90% of their stuff is still on sale

[@LordEsel88]

If GW won't do it, the community will make their own erratas. It's annoying but I would not panic over these flaws.

[@ShadowPhoenixMaximus]

Never say never. Don't forget GW killed Warhammer Fantasy and now we're gradually getting it back. If we can do that, then i'm sure if Old World is a financial success we will get all the races.

[@gstellar96]

Not defending them at all but it is weird to see people cherry pick which statements they want to be true and which they don't. Taking the fact that the legacy pdfs should be balanced and well thought out as gospel but rejecting the fact that they're very clearly saying they won't be supported in the future. Ok think it will be up to the community to maintain and keep these factions playable in the future and ill take what GW said at face value.

[@Weberkooks]

Dude if you stil have faith in GW I have no idea what it would take to kill it...

[@skarnak1]

Yeah, that Murderous rule in regards to witch elves makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why even give them the murderous rule if they technically can never use it??

[@iikkakangas2586]

these kind of rules should absolutely work with additional handweapons. khorne chaos warriors AHW looking spicy with 0 ap

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

They'll definitely update the legacy factions after AoS dies.

[@mogwaiman6048]

lol nope.

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

@@mogwaiman6048 The AOS trading group in my country has doubled in size since TOW released. It had been dying before then.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@kdhlkjhdlk that's anecdotal. TOW will have its audience, but the ruleset alone alienates most new players and it's a specialist studio game. AoS 4th edition is this Summer.

[@Gunnery2]

House rule them if necessary

[@itsallfunandgames723]

I think the whole "legacy controversy" is an overblown waste of time. They just provided an army book for every one of these legacy factions. In every edition of WFB since 4th what does it mean when GW supports a faction? It means they get an army book. And sometimes they didn't even get an army book, like the Bretonnians. But that was always viewed as the full extent of rules support. So okay, they got an army book. The army books have errors, they either need to FAQ them, or some major TO will, but that's a separate issue. The Leagues of Votann had to be rewritten, and that was a hardback codex for a brand new model line. Their products are riddled with errors, show they do next to no playtesting, and do a poor job balancing factions during all times. But all this talk about legacy factions "not being supported" is just a bit silly, even if it's what GW wrote on their own website. What's the difference between legacy factions and non-legacy factions in terms of rule support? One supplemental 40 page book with extra characters and army lists. Okay... that ain't a big deal.

[@akavgmatteored9965]

Bro if you can give me a daemon list playable in a real tournament i am gonna build you a monument. I think they can be funny to play? Yes absolutly, already built 4 list for 1000, 1250 and 1500 points army but if you try to build a 2k army you will just see they don't get anything close to what core army do. Even if my basic troops are good they cost a billion points each and in a game of strategy with rank bonuses you are maybe killing some enemy but never winning an actual fight.

[@akavgmatteored9965]

If any of you guys wants to take my friendly challenge this is my list of miniatures: 1 Daemon Prince 1 Herald of Tzeentch on disk 1 Herald of khorne bsb on foot 1 skull cannon 3 bloodcrusher with 1 Herald or champion, no banner or musician 5 flesh hounds 5 seekers of slanesh full command 6 flamers (with possibly 2 champions) 29 bloodletters with full command 10 pink horrors with full command 10 Daemonettes of slanesh with full command

[@ShadowPhoenixMaximus]

AoS plays more like Elder Scrolls lore wise

[@GhOsT-mb5vl]

The old world is crap. Models are crap. It died for a reason. AoS is a million times better. All you nerds can cry in your reply idc. I’m right, you’re wrong.

[@bncat3396]

first

[@josephaulisio9281]

Fomo clowns.

[@desiredrive3361]

Haha age of shitmar