Leopard 1 vs STB-1 / War Thunder

[@TheCarDemotic]

Guys, Stop complaining about how the STB-1 is op. If anyone is willing to suffer through low tier Japan they deserve a reward.

[@yeetnoodle9668]

Thank you

[@shadowraven8768]

Thanks

[@smixy10]

fr japanese low tier is so hard. only when you start from Chi To, you have a fighting chance! but then the Chi Ri II is just straight up Chi Nu again with a size of king tiger and a slow auto loader (loading ammo to rack) some how

[@mycatjoe4]

Armor is a joke at 8.0 - 9.0

[@Eonymia]

Funnily enough, the gun mantlet of the stb has saved me multiple times. Bouncing a chieftain at close range is always fun.

[@valentindio2661]

That's t the joke

[@gavsbrah8558]

M3 Bradley lol

[@michaelvigil5321]

Good thing it's not 8.0 right

[@enricocarlino7110]

Actually sometimes it can save you even from apdsfs

[@s4official344]

Already know that the STB-1 is going to be better, and I don't even have it.

[@nigelwigglwattle]

I still love my leo

[@witcheddoctor2720]

S4 Official stb gang

[@LynX-xe2jb]

Leopard 1 would have the STB any day, even though it is older

[@yuurichito1439]

@@nigelwigglwattle cuz it is better

[@nigelwigglwattle]

@@yuurichito1439 yes

[@Tintin-dm4ym]

How can the make such a tiny deal of the stabiliser: it’s blatantly makes the stb better and they just glanced over it

[@nigelwigglwattle]

And the suspension system

[@kevincho1187]

they mention both toward the end of the video

[@L1amPL4YS]

On this BR it is actually irrelevant how strong the armor is, because everything can pen everyone xD

[@ollilaine6763]

Not at this BR yet. Russians use APHE and other countries still use APDS so armor still matters. At 8.3 to 10.0 armor doesn't matter that much but still matters.

[@KoteDarasuum]

@@ollilaine6763 T-54 1951 uses HEAT FS, most L/7s have HEAT-fs too and most heavies too. Except brits but what can you do when they didnt use HEAT

[@troopx]

I can’t pen some tanks with my Leopard’s 303mm APDS

[@KoteDarasuum]

@@troopx agaisnt other 7.7 mediums i have no issues with the APDS, the issues raise when im uptiered or agaisnt lots of soviet heavy tanks for me but then again leopard is best when used at flanking. Its armor and lack of stabilizer dont really allow for head on engagements

[@michaelvigil5321]

Except the fact that it actually matters against anything without APFSDS so basically anything below 8.3.

[@mikaz0850]

“Quality of its transmission” Continues to pan around a German tank

[@Aes880]

broke down in finland where T-72 have no problem operated in

[@yuurichito1439]

Where are u from?

[@yuurichito1439]

@@Aes880 u are probably still using it 🤣

[@albertbassoe5966]

So a vehicle that you agree is objectively better, at the same br

[@kennylin8873]

In the current state of compression a small downtier is not a option, if leopard was downtiered it will be too good. If top tier was 12.0 lowering or increase the battle rating will truly make sense.

[@paraweld9838]

Also Japanese tanks are often under tiered do to the lack of a lineup, so having a few very good tanks is balanced against a lineup with many vehicles that are simply good

[@kennylin8873]

@@paraweld9838 There are simply not enough players playing the top tier Japanese tanks. I am sure this is because how hard it is to grind that tech tree, I am a F2P player and after months of torture I am finally researching the STB-1

[@hazeldsr]

TL:DR STB +armor +suspension +stab Leopard +a bit of speed

[@ollilaine6763]

Gaijin: looks like the same to me. Alright, same BR for those tanks.

[@thurbine2411]

Olli Laine stb should be 8.3 with that stabilizer and quite some armor hull down

[@troopx]

Leopard should be 7.3 and move back the M48G to 7.7, it does not belong at 8.3 even with APFSDS that costs 600 rounds a shot.

[@JamesVDBosch]

@@troopx Yay, more BR compression by placing the Leopard 1 at 7.3, that's a great idea! /s

[@kevincho1187]

@@troopx leo doesnt deserve 7.3 its already pretty gud at 7.7

[@mt2ryujo475]

The stabilised gun on the STB makes it way better not even mention the suspension

[@BlackWinter71]

This just shows how much gaijin doesn't understand what makes a good tank. These are not comparable, the stabilizer makes a huge different.

[@kennylin8873]

Remember? They don't play their own game!

[@michaelvigil5321]

@@kennylin8873 no no they just play arcade so they don't really notice a stabilized tank vs non stabilized since the difference is so small

[@trossk]

Crys in french

[@nikkeri99]

Also the turret top armor on the stb can be quite bouncy against certain shells making it really good at poking over hills

[@nikolaperic9941]

Exactly they don't understand their own creation just lol

[@ashielowfer]

Stabilizer is the everything for MBTs Without stabilizer y'all suffering 😭

[@kurtbenner8095]

Bro fr the the only upgrade I really care about in the a1a1 over the leo 1 is the stabilized gun and the dart is a nice addition

[@Ask3lad]

No Stabilizer is needed when I snipe you 2km away with the Leopard

[@BARelement]

Askelad You can do that in any tank with a good gun, and good ammo... Nothing special bub.

[@BARelement]

Askelad Also what in the living hell will you snipe when ApDs struggles with is4 at close range (which is balanced considering the Leo’s speed).

[@crunchymix]

Ask3lad only few map that you can perform and kill from 2 km.this game is mostly close combat in tiny area.

[@truereaper4572]

Next on the War Thunder Versus Series: Gayjin VS The Playerbase.

[@warcats7207]

YES

[@XEyedN00b]

So, we've established that STB-1 is clearly superior. Why is it on the same BR as Leopard 1?

[@randomguy4616]

Well, i remember early vs series on this channel, Mystere IIA vs La200 and they conclude La200 is better, even that thing is 8.0 vs Mystere IIA 8.7 (even at 9.0 the time video released)

[@johanmikkael6903]

Probably because tier 5 Japan doesn't have any back up tanks line up for 7.7 or even 7.0

[@jean-michelskaer642]

this comment did'nt aged well :D

[@igoryst3049]

I like bullying these MBTs with a M22

[@rn-zu5ld]

Same here but ASU-57

[@Echomage1215]

Don't we all

[@muzu_blitz]

I hate u. Because u using M22.

[@ZioBorisitalia]

There's a good spot with your name in hell

[@tartagliathewigsplitter3880]

same but in pz ii h or sturmpanty

[@cedjoe6]

It should've been Leopard 1 vs AMX-30

[@ollilaine6763]

AMX-30 is also better lol

[@cedjoe6]

Olli Laine at least it’s comparable by not having a stabilizer

[@KoteDarasuum]

@@ollilaine6763 eh i have to disagree, personally i feel the rounds of AMX-30 are worse than ones in Leo 1. Especially HEAT. And at that BR where HEAT-FS is really used i rather have mobility over AMX's armor. But atleast AMX can survive ZSU-57-2 from front

[@dryaldibread2327]

@@KoteDarasuum totally agreed.

[@JamesVDBosch]

@@ollilaine6763 It's not. AMX-30 is slower.

[@Sereze001]

This should have been Leopard A1A1 instead and you know it Gaijin.

[@saml3288]

Don't want to be mean but, the leo was built around 1960. The stb was built in 1975, so crearly the japanese tank will win

[@mikeymikey4186]

This is unfair. A much more fair fight would be the STB-1 vs. Leo 1A1

[@ChristianTheNorwegian]

Yes, and the 1A1 sits at 8.7. The STB-1 at 7.7 is madness.

[@JamesVDBosch]

@@ChristianTheNorwegian STB-1 doesn't have APFSDS.

[@ChristianTheNorwegian]

@@JamesVDBosch Oh I know. But the STB-1 should not be at 7.7 with that stab. The L7 HEAT round works just fine until 9.0 and the USSR composite armor, so a BR of 8.0 or even 8.3 would be just fine.

[@JamesVDBosch]

@@ChristianTheNorwegian Exactly, but it shouldn't be any higher than that because of it's lack of APFSDS.

[@stealthSGMB]

Type 74 Vs A1A1.

[@JP-wv9so]

war thunder: what do all early mbts have in common me: they all have a high repair cost

[@Thundergod-xt2nd]

Yep

[@philmybutup4759]

Leo 1 is only like 3 k tho

[@HolysauceStreams]

So you’re saying the leopard needs to be downtiered

[@Taeschno_Flo]

no, 7.7 is still pretty low for a leo in my opinion. downtiering only compresses lower tiers. uptiering would be a far better option

[@michaelvigil5321]

No what they are saying is that the stb should be uptiered. Germans always trying to go down rather than something else going up.

[@Maverick966]

No, the STB-1 needs to be uptiered to 8.0

[@kimjanek646]

"It's the details that makes the difference" yeah like fire control systems, crew layout and efficency, visibility etc. all which are not represented in the game. Oh the commander has the ability to point the gun on target or even aim and fire the gun on its own? Well too bad but your tank behaves just like 1940 tank with more horse power....

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

to be fair its more like the other way round (1940s tank acts like a modern tank), and how would you represent that commander ability in a game like this? - to answer my own question, maybe you only have direct mouse control in 'sniper' mode and 3rd person has turret controls like binos (click and the gunner is ordered to turn the turret) except in tanks where the commander can take control of the gun. crew layout and efficiency is the reload time. hence tanks with the same gun, shells and crew number can have different loading speeds. edit: as for FCSs a laser range finder is part of a FCS, the other parts are about wind and air density (which I am sure would be in the game if those things were modeled which means they are not modeled and adding those features could be a big strain on the servers. visibility is a silly argument as tank commanders could (and in many nations/times did) spend most of their time sticking out the turret hatch, then again you could argue this should be modeled with the gie actualy sticking his head out for normal 3rd person (and thus can get shot at by MGs, etc) and the calopa for zoomed in 3rd person (meaning no zoomed in 3rd person for tanks without calopas) and tanks are invisible to 3rd person camera if the tank commander can't actually see it.

[@kimjanek646]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 well kinda like that ;)

[@matthieuzglurg6015]

Compare AMX 30 BRENNUS to Leopard A1A1.... just for "fun" (that the french players doesn't get)

[@SadseaI]

*Laughs in no stabilizer*

[@user-fj7ig2jq6q]

Angry spaded brenus noises

[@AsthmaQueen]

They would only use Heat rounds in the A1A1 then just to artificially call its Reactive armor useful lmao

[@YTMMS-hy6mz]

STB also has a chad laser range finder meanwhile the leopard only has a virgin rangefinder

[@viet_cong_momiji2324]

nobody: Gaijin: Leopard 1 vs STB-1

[@HanamiChan33]

Why not replace the leopard 1 with the leopard a1 instead?

[@emilgirginov9848]

I want my Maus back !

[@AlarmingVirus]

I'll never understand why Germany never gave the leopard 1 a stabilizer, like why make a tank go fast if it cant properly shoot on the move or even stop, shoot, than move. Ww2 tanks even have it beat in this regard.

[@hamzasami8362]

It is a post war tank, so my guess would be cost related issues?

[@baykazdal]

coleman bundy The Leopard 1 was only produced in limited numbers the actual production model was the Leopard A1 which featured a Gage Stab

[@bootlesspick3592]

Also to note the stb 1 came after the leopard 1 and was inspired by it like may Japanese tanks are inspired by other tanks. Also another note the stb-1 is just a prototype tank for the type74

[@Serkay64]

Why is the STB-1 at 7.7 when it has a stabilizer. It should be 8.0 or even 8.3

[@vascouhlmann9016]

british tanks have stabilizers at 6.7 so i think it's fine

[@Serkay64]

@@vascouhlmann9016 Its not even fair at that BR

[@vascouhlmann9016]

@@Serkay64 true. But the brits at this BR are so slow a stabilizer makes no real difference xD

[@Serkay64]

@@vascouhlmann9016 You are right there XD

[@elijahsmith8597]

The stb has no apfsds and has no reliable backup vehicle

[@kevinneville5876]

So basically the leopards only advantage is a little bit more mobility and the STB has everything else over it. This is a find example of how compressed your BR system is yet you say you dont think adding 11.0 and decompressing the game will be beneficial.

[@clod2692]

just the fact that leopard 1 don't have a stabilizer put it a 7.3 in my opinion. 7.7 is too much. even brits at 6.7 have stabilizer, and is killer.

[@jbperrinnl]

Well, AMX-30's are all the way up to 8.7 without stabilisers... And they cost more to boot... :( Germans have it good, believe me.

[@clod2692]

@@jbperrinnl who cares of french? they are good where they are, in the bin

[@clod2692]

@@jbperrinnl when germany lacks 6.0 to 6.7 planes, italy still don't have a navy and other main nation don't have their problems solved, french tech tree is my last worry

[@sirnooblet2793]

@@clod2692 Why? Leopard is fine at 7.7 with it's mobility and firepower. The British get stabilizers at 6.7 because they are slow and lack a ton of armor.

[@tigerii10.5cmpog4]

Laughs in STURMPANZER 2 Also laughs in 10.5mm

[@sylv9570]

The power of anime is so advance the stb can dab.

[@muzu_blitz]

Lol

[@jacobburchill4059]

Warrior Vs M3 Bradley comparison attempt #5

[@jed4265]

thanks! Was just grinding towards the Leo, i'll reconsider

[@sandwiched]

Battle of the micro-tanks! ASU-57 vs M22 Locust!

[@Mark-xc4tq]

At that br almost all tank have HEATS so armor doesnt really mater (70mm or 80 mm)

[@BARelement]

They should only give heat at 8.0+ imo... It’s annoying to play as USSR have no mobility, armor that can be melted through, and long reloads... why should a 1940s tank face Leopards heatfs let alone leopards at all?

[@hvhhvvggg8663]

@@BARelement yes I ask that same question as my king tigers strongest armour gets easily penned by heat carrying tanks

[@sheevpalpatine7588]

t-34e STZ vs pz. iv G panther A vs t-34-85_D5T type 59 vs t-55

[@VengineerGER]

Cold war main battle tanks fighting each other? Since when is that a thing they are supposed to stomp WW2 tanks in constant max uptiers.

[@edwinjoseph322]

Chieftain MK5 vs Leopard A1A1 or Chieftain MK5 vs Leopard A1A1 (L/44)

[@marianweis3914]

In old bundeswehr movie you kann See that the Leopard 1 has a stabiliser

[@sufyanmapara7538]

British Churchill Mk 7 Vs one of the Jumbos

[@threnn9509]

Why is the STB-1 only 7.7 when it's so much better? Couldn't it be 8.0 because of the stabalizer?

[@14thbkrctsecks]

the rate of fire and the repair cost makes it trash af

[@jf9830]

So why, Leo is still 7.7?

[@SpaceCommunism]

Maybe make downtier it like jagdtiger, witch is now almost invincible on 6.7

[@jf9830]

Pieseł Pieselski jagd’s invincibility is situational

[@rartros717]

@@SpaceCommunism nah i feel like butter vs british knife

[@TheCarDemotic]

Pieseł Pieselski Just shoot above the Jadpanzers tracks, but below the armor plate. It will kill the Ammo if you have enough explosive mass

[@mab2187]

STB better, up it to 8.0 Why do we still have 10.0 as max BR??? Increase the limit!

[@johnynuke3310]

Please make a vs video with the tiger 2 maybe pair it against the centurion or the super Pershing?

[@hypernova3527]

I wouldn't consider the hydropneumatic suspension a real advantage, but a complement, as you cant move the vehicle unless it's back on it's default position. (at least in the BM-13)

[@KozarssonTM]

You’re able to move with the STB-1 without having to reset your suspension.

[@dilawargill8740]

Hahaha let's enjoy the video now:3

[@matteovise6480]

YaG-10 vs 8,8 Flak 37

[@tomic0046]

STB is way better, that little more speed and reload aint nothing. STABILIZER+BETTER ARMOR=WIN

[@ryanh2686]

Not a fair comparison, since the STB-1 is the best 7.7 in the game and it should be 8.3 but what do I know

[@RandomSwede-1]

Will sweden get a tech tree in 1.93?

[@akazie2617]

We better....i want the swedes so bad

[@Tintin-dm4ym]

I hope not; I hope they fix their SL economy who wants more tanks to ballance

[@KoljaGamer]

But don't coplaining about "copy-paste tree" then (at least for low-tier). ;-)

[@akazie2617]

@@KoljaGamer they would have more then half a tree full of special vehicles so at first it would be a little sucky then after that all swedish tech

[@swedishstyle9778]

@@KoljaGamer tell me what is copy paste in low tier ? Because i can only see 2 "copies" i.imgur.com/ftRpBhv.jpg

[@leakahoshi5049]

A Germans mbt vs A protoype mbt that combines Americans and Germans mbt technology

[@aydinali5381]

How we can ask question from warthunder?

[@stug77]

Why are the STB-1 and the Leopard 1 the same BR if one is better than the other?

[@stug77]

The Leo with a stabilizer jumps up to 8.7, which I know is mainly because of APFSDS but I think the stabilizer contributes a lot. I know if you put the L1A1 without DM23 at 7.7 people would have a fit. But from what I can see that pretty much what the STB is, except even better.

[@alfredconqueror4422]

I'm glad I placed a talisman on the HoRi Production.... On the other hand it bleeds all my SL bc it's so expensive to play, I need at least 5 kills to pay the bill

[@thesnazzycomet]

Next comparison video.... comet vs M4A2 /A3 76 W. 5.0 medium tanks

[@Thatguy33333]

do a contest of what tank can climb the steepest hill

[@dereine1971]

Question:if the stb1 is better why same br? :D

[@michalsimanek6988]

Please make the Maus an squadron vehicle or make it the same as those little french tanks (research unlocked after some point like unlocking tier VI) Point is don't completely lock it out for new players who will not get a chance to play it

[@shaloamnenja12yearsago29]

Well... yes, exempt the leopard was made 10 years before the pos Japanese tank.

[@lilhombrae3532]

Hey war thunder if you want to stop loosing players listen to the KZbin community

[@dmitriyfragrance]

Put the STB on 8.0, just because of its two-plane-stabilizer.

[@Tintin-dm4ym]

Blyatman or give leopard one.. the centurion 6.7 mk3 has fully stabiliser and the fv4202

[@napalmmischief4330]

I have to say, it wasn't really fair. The Leo 1 was made in the 1950's (I think) while the STB-1 was probably made in 1960. Also, the Leo 1 is really old and the STB-1 is more modern. Though I also have to say, this was also a even match. The Leo 1 in the game is amazing, a good tank to say. It's mobility allows it to reach cap points quickly. Also it's vs. tanks without stabilizers.

[@skyripper3915]

Genuinely don't think STB>Leo1, felt like they should be equally good. The armor that STB have does't really matter that much as most rounds in 7.7 could pen it nice and easy. Having stabilizer does help STB to fire first in most cases, but it's -6 depression could ruin the shot if the tank is moving through bumpy surface. (By the way, the last scene feels like deep ♂dark♂fantasy)

[@vale.44peru]

The only differences here are the leos speed and the stb-1 stabilizer + suspension (but it’s not so relevant since the normal depression is -6)

[@rorycauchi7006]

I have a question and I hope it gets answered on the next episode . Why no oceanic servers ? Aussie and NZ players wanna enjoy lower ping . Is there a reason can it b answered

[@slouchygames1923]

In all honesty I've been playing my M60 out and I've faced both T54 and leopard tanks in it so if possible maybe 3 way face off between the 3 or just seeing the M60 vs the T54 would be good enough for me

[@warriorhobo3935]

i mean.. the leopard 1 was made in 1956 and the stb 1 was made around 1970.

[@mynamesthis8288]

Of course the leopard has - *nine* degrees of depression

[@AveragePootis]

And the STB has a hydropneumatic suspension that gives it around 12 degrees of gun depression if i remember correctly, so whats your point?

[@PT-vw7nb]

May be Something fight with Tiger II like IS-2 Mod1944

[@dryaldibread2327]

Is2 cant even pen the tiger 2H from the front reliably

[@ninpgmer8959]

@@dryaldibread2327 The IS 2 can pen it 100% of the time on turret at 700m and below wich is higher than the average engagement distance of 500m, I have to disagree. Oh and I forgot to mention the stupid ready rack right after the huge 185mm plate.

[@bootlesspick3592]

Tiger 2 turret be like boom box to is-2

[@brsela3211]

Compare type 74 vs leo a1a1 vs of40 mk2 vs amx 30 brenus vs m60 rise p vs zdbz china tank vs t62

[@edcavi9769]

Now that they decided to take the HEAT off my baby, it is necessary to do this comparison again

[@vancel8746]

The French AMX-30(1972) is no where near either. It should be the tier of the Lorraine.

[@EmiFalke]

Do you think you'll ever add the British TOG II? It's such an interesting vehicle.

[@Hackwild217]

I've never ever seen a STB out play a leopard EVER.

[@alex941126]

I've seen it often tbh

[@cedjoe6]

The STB-1 shouldn’t be at 7.7 with its stabilizer.

[@ollilaine6763]

Yeah, but Gaijin doesn't care since they want to give people a reason to go for the japanese tech tree so they could get some money out of it.

[@cedjoe6]

Olli Laine Sadly...

[@KoljaGamer]

And M48A2 GA2 don't have a stabilizer and got 8.3...

[@cedjoe6]

Kolja.Gamer at least it has good ammo like the AMX-30B2 and can be played as a support vehicle.

[@Serkay64]

@@KoljaGamer the DM23 isnt really helping it. The 8.3 BR is too high when everything at its BR has stabilizers

[@idontknowwhereiam5801]

Next comparison please: T-80U against M1A1 Abrams

[@why-dfdook9029]

Hey Gaijin! Could you make a comparative video about the premium tanks? AMX-30 Super, OF40, LeoA1A1 L/44, T55-am1, XM-1, T62 (China), Type 74G, Shot-Kal Dalet, AND also please include the Merkava Mk.1 since it is 8.7 and the XM-1 is 9.0 therfore it will be equal. Thanks!

[@SAUBER_KH7]

Suggestion: Best of the 60's: Soviet T-62 vs British Chieftain (Either Mk3 or Mk5). Who will win?

[@urdnotwrex6969]

Sherman DD, Sherman Rhino, Sherman Bulldozer, Churchill AVRE when?

[@iota515]

First we need normal afvs like Stug IV

[@yeetnoodle9668]

Don't believe the reverse speed of -20 kph on the STB-1, they nerfed it HARD to -7 kph.

[@heiko5209]

Thumbnail be like: oh! You're approaching me?

[@michelvermeer1506]

Tortoise vs jagdpanther

[@BrownFoxWarrior]

But shouldn't it be a leo of some sort vs a Type 74, so it can be production model vs production model?

[@rudolphantler6309]

Next compare the Maus with the Object 120!

[@TrollinginKhaos]

Leopard 2 K vs Ariete (P)

[@Soldier1526]

Honestly they need to do this, but with Br line ups. I will say the Stb is a great tank (and obviously better) and it is amazing, but unfortunately the line up for Japan around 7.7 is dismal. Japan is a tree of GOOD tanks but meh line ups. Few BRs have good line ups for Japan, again Great single tanks, but okay backups if you die.

[@phenom2409]

I feel like it should've been leo 1a1 vs the stb1

[@jinametarasu5117]

they forgot to include that the leopard got that 400mm pen round

[@stealthSGMB]

What is the reason STB has a lower reload speed? The issue seems to be fixed on the Type 74 but I never understood why it's there to begin with.

[@Anaximander05]

balance comrade, STB should have faster reload than Leo, due to ready racks and/or loading assist device, but those things not implemented for Japan

[@TheCrixtian15]

this series can't be without M1A1 Abrams vs T-80U

[@stardekk1461]

This series can't be without F4C vs MIG-21-F-13

[@bootlesspick3592]

Umm is it total necessary as the did do a comparison of the abrams vs the t72 and then vs the t80b so it would be very minor different results

[@bryannrisse3852]

ARL-44 and Tiger H1 the ARL have a better gun, mobility and hull armor but the armor is badly set, the size is huge and the vertical drive have the link to the engine make it break before the breech

[@MrQuietscheDUCK]

please answer. Why blow up the STB 1 when I'm shoot at it. With my t62 and the update T62m1? Its a candle.

[@viking197]

Really should have been the Leo a1a1vs the STB not the Leo 1 vs the STB since it was obvious who would have one

[@levilastun829]

The worst thing on leopard 1 is the scope.

[@michi1743]

Let's see Ariete vs Leo 2A5?

[@johnbacuna4140]

I like using the leopard-1,because its good at flanking

[@fenway4739]

Bf109 vs Spitfire?

[@h21lad13]

Leopard 2 vs chieftain vs Abrams tusk

[@Subspacer15]

Keeping with the same nation, how about moving up a bit to compare the Leopard a1a1 vs Type 74. 8.7 match up

[@Zeryth960]

still a win for the japanese, much better penning round.

[@randomguy4616]

But still slower, and now Leo have stabilizer

[@alphinerollei35mig28]

@@Zeryth960 say hugh to leo scope