Lessons From A VFR Into IMC Fatal Crash

Meredith sits down with a former student to discuss his wise decision not to fly VFR on Tuesday, November 14, when a pilot flying nearby lost control in IMC and crashed.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

Great job, we need more people like this that are un afraid to talk about these things immediately after a crash while we all still remember it. Thanks for your effort to shoot and edit this video, it should be flight school viewing material for sure!

[@HolladayAviation]

Thanks Dan. GA safety is a team effort!!

[@martinap1961]

Nice to call and tell not to feel pressured to bring back the plane !!!

[@RusscanFLY]

This was such a sad, but highly necessary video. I think we all need to be mindful of the continued ever present danger of VFR flight into IMC. Thank you for this candid conversation, and the way you both confronted this sensitive issue. I’m hoping that we can find a way to keep from losing any more of a brother or sister pilots. Fly well!

[@jsmith1746]

I did most of my initial training at Craig airport back in the early 1990s. On one of my cross-country flights, from Gainesville to Craig, I found out just how quickly the weather could deteriorate. The weather was great departing GNV and it wasn't long before I could see Craig airport. However as I closed in on Jacksonville, within just a few minutes, JAX approach told me Craig was reporting 1/4 mile visibility and heavy rain. Fortunately I had been relatively aware of my position in relation to other airports and was able to quickly duck in to Herlong airport. Took a taxi home and then picked up the airplane the next day. I was lucky, and learned a lot that day. But it was a bit scary seeing how easy it can be to be lulled in to a false sense of security and then suddenly find yourself facing some nasty weather. My condolences to the family and friends of the pilot lost in the accident.

[@HolladayAviation]

Thanks for sharing.

[@xalivin]

I am an airlinepilot and listened to the situation on 121.5 while flying along the florida coastline that day. The pilot that died in the crash reported that he had flown into imc and lost his attitude indicator. From my interpretation of the situation he was not IFR rated. Even if he had been IFR rated, without stby instrumentation or a lot of recent practice on how to fly IFR without an attitude indicator his chances to get out alive were near zero. I feel really sorry for the family and also for the controller who did a very professional job in calming down the pilot who was initially in a panic and holding him in the air for so long.

[@HolladayAviation]

Heartbreaking for anyone who had to listen to that go down. I had to fly IMC in a small airplane with a vac failure once and that was one time too many for me. When Garmin launched the G5, we immediately made plans to install them in all of our IFR aircraft. The redundancy and peace of mind is worth every penny.

[@captainkttyhwk]

The attitude indicator was probably fine. He just couldn't believe it. Trust your instruments!! Don't give in to your gut.

[@hatintec]

I lost a friend to “I-gotta-get-there-itis”. Similar situation. Thank you for letting Allan share his story of what he witnessed- a real world account of both poor, and proper, pilot decision making.

[@lauraradigan4114]

Probably the most terrifying thing in aviation as a VFR pilot is to get caught VFR on top and not knowing how low the cloud bases are. The second most terrifying thing is skud running given all the high cell phone towers. Both things can kill you quick.

[@DavidFekke]

Thanks Meredith. Excellent safety video.

[@kmireku]

I feel very strongly that CFIs should impress upon student pilots with no uncertainty that spatial disorientation kills pilots 99.99% of the time. I often get the impression the non-instrument rated pilot is aware that the weather is not favorable, but they hope the odds will be in their favor. In the case of this accident with the 21yr old who lost control after he had traveled almost 90% of the route to Gainesville, looking at his flight track on FlightAware he started making route and altitude adjustments very early in the flight. He started out at 3,500ft, dropped to as low as 500ft likely to avoid clouds then climbed back up and kept going. He even overflew at least one airport but decided to press on. As Meredith rightly said we should always leave ourselves an out and not hesitate to use it.

[@Docinaplane]

Very interesting interview! I'm based in Gainesville and have been flying a long time. Back in the day, when I didn't have my pilot's license for very long, I had been invited to a friend's family reunion in Ocean Isle, North Carolina. It was early April, and I was looking forward to flying the three-hour trip along the southeastern coast of the US. During the Spring, however, with the rapidly changing air masses, weather systems along the eastern seaboard can be tricky, but the weather didn’t look too bad, even with a stalled frontal system between the Florida Georgia border and northern South Carolina. I arrived at the airport early in the day, packed everything into my Piper Arrow, and off I went climbing into those, currently, beautiful skies. It all didn’t look too bad until I was north of Jacksonville. I noticed the lights were on for the cars below as they slowly meandered along I-95. Even though the skies were darkening a bit ahead and the cloud ceiling was getting a little lower, I figured I could just follow the lights of the cars and really, it wasn’t THAT long a flight. Besides, I’d been flying about an hour and turning back home, and driving would add a lot of time to the traveling, and I wanted to get there. Wanting to get there may well be near the top of the list of unwritten causes of general aviation accident reports right under "Watch this!" As I neared Savannah, it was getting pretty dark, and I noticed on the aviation charts that there were towers that I could make out in the distance that were higher than the bases of the clouds I was presently flying under. Suddenly, strong rains pelted the windshield! "Fear is the mind killer!" a mantra of mine, went through my thoughts as I made an immediate right turn and headed for the ocean over the foggy, barely visible estuaries below. It wasn't long before I reached the shoreline, and at this point, I was able to distinguish that boundary. I turned northeast again and followed that guiding faint line between sea and sand. Now I was down to about 1,000 feet above the ground, and I followed what felt like that fine line between life and death over the next two hours. Finally, in marginally improving conditions, I called the military airbase near Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, to request clearance to transition their airspace, their immediate and crisp reply was one of the sweetest sounds I have ever heard. Ten minutes later the Arrow's tires kissed the runway at Ocean Isle, and 30 seconds after that my lips did the same thing. A few days later, I made the return flight to Florida, vowing that I would never put myself in a situation like that flight again.

[@GentleResponseLLC]

Great job validating and affirming good decision making and so on, that pilot is encouraged to keep it up, and others can learn from it! Panic is a killer, it keeps you from focusing on what you need to do.

[@ojosepedrorocha]

Just a tip for the video: don't cut as much, or just do straight cuts without fade ins or fade outs. Great video tho

[@mhilderbrand7693]

Thank you for sharing! We definitely need to hear these stories. I know as I get older, my flying is becoming more conservative…

[@MooneyOvation2]

This sad event highlights a significant gap in pilots’ education which I was lucky to learn 50 years ago: “if you can’t maintain a clear horizon go somewhere else”.

[@barblargh]

Unfortunately, if the account of the pilot's communications with ATC is accurate, he was likely a goner long before the crash. Those are typical responses of someone going through a panic attack, which will completely rob you of any ability to do anything useful, even if your life depends on it. I was in a car that my wife was driving when she suffered a panic attack, and even though I was right there, with physical access to her, I literally couldn't get her to pull over and stop. It was a terrifying experience, and that was a much, much easier emergency to handle than solo pilot VFR into IMC.

[@mebeingU2]

I’ve been there with a love one, too. It’s so hard to manage. I hope things improve for your wife. I’m not sure when and what triggers this.

[@barblargh]

​@@mebeingU2: Thanks. This was several years ago, and nowadays we know very well what the triggers are and where it comes from. For driving, the simple solution is that I do all the driving when necessary. Which is fine since she hates driving anyway.

[@libertine5606]

Too many accident investigations are done in perfect weather the day after bad weather! Usually the best alternate is the airport you just passed. Always, always have a out. The best plans are done on the ground. Always expect that the weather is going to be worse than forecasted. Having "personal minimums" is fine. However, always train for the worst. If you are expecting to use your plan for any type of travel you MUST get a instrument rating and keep it current. I would highly suggest that any pilot that is serious about being a pilot watches every DVD that Richard Collins made. Especially , Flying the weather by the season. He, to my knowledge, is the only person who shows you the weather, shows you how to plan a trip, the decision making process, and how they all come together in trips in real time and things to consider when things don't go to plan. Things with technology have changed a lot since his videos but none of that can make the decisions necessary for low risk flights. All the technology can tell you what is happening now but it can't help you make good decisions with that information.

[@miggybunzzz7946]

I was on an IFR flight plan from Orlando Exec to Flagler at the same time as he was flying on Tuesday. Definitely not VFR conditions. sending prayers to his loved ones.

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

I read somewhere that when it comes to planning a flight it is better to be a pessimist, because weather changes and can trap a pilot, so expect that to happen.

[@user-ej9jq2zf1y]

I am in no way an expert or even a high-hour experienced pilot but it seems to me students are not taught the different ways to get out of IMC conditions. An option when start feeling disoriented and panic setting in set heading bug as close to heading and hit altitude hold. Then take your hands and feet off the controls and try gathering your head before attempting hand-flying the plane. If have too, fly by turning the heading bug and talking to ATC to assist you down.

[@HolladayAviation]

Most training aircraft do not have autopilots or backup attitude displays.

[@HolladayAviation]

See my previous video on the sport pilot NPRM. Think about the fact that NO INSTRUMENT TRAINING IS REQUIRED for sport pilots (who if the FAA and the alphabet groups get their way will be able to fly this Cessna 172) and only 3 hours required for private pilots, which is intended as an emergency escape maneuver. IMC is no joke. It’s nothing to take lightly. Our airplanes are well equipped for IFR and Alan’s instructor is highly experienced and very proficient at flying IFR. It was a familiar route with plenty of “outs” as I described this video. But for a VFR only private pilot, this weather should have been a no-go. I’m looking forward to Dan Gryder’s analysis on @ProbableCause later this week.

[@gorillachinchilla1668]

What do you mean by "alphabet groups" please?

[@HolladayAviation]

@@gorillachinchilla1668 AOPA, EAA, etc…

[@gorillachinchilla1668]

Ah okay, thanks for confirming.

[@charlesbrewer6552]

Thanks for this video. I am a retired 71 year old instructor in Australia, I got my private licence way back in 1978. I am also a keen yachtsman, yacht owner and retired offshore sailing instructor. The personality traits for survival in an emergency in flying or offshore sailing are very similar. I was sad to hear the description of this pilots panic when faced with this emergency. It seems to me that safe flying demands a certain type of personality, an ability to remain calm under stress. It seems to me that some people simply do not have the personality to be safe as pilots or yacht skippers. The ability to remain calm under stress and to continue to make sensible decisions is absolutely critical to survival when the stuff hits the fan! I do not mean to be critical of this unfortunate young man who got himself over his head but some people simply should NOT be flying aircraft!

[@georgeallensmo]

I think this was the flight where the pilot was in contact with ATC and allegedly said tell my parents I love them.

[@jakekiser7709]

I really liked your point of view, not all vfr is the same. Don’t be lazy and let the green dot be your decision maker.

[@stevel8743]

Lotta my airline friends heard him on w jax. Sad. RIP my friend

[@GuyFromSC]

Go see Dan Gryder’s Probable Cause video on this crash. He did a great job and got incredible behind the scenes info with Central ATC that make this story even more heartbreaking. To all you Gryder haters, go eat one and stop hating. You probably don’t like him because he’s most likely told the truth about one of your friends or colleagues fatal mistakes as an opportunity to save other lives in GA. And you’re salty because you don’t want to hear that a fallen pilot has made dumb mistake. I get it. But we must learn. If you don’t agree with approach and perhaps thinks he’s a bit rash or a know it all, that’s fine. You have your opinions and I have mine. But you can’t for one second legitimately knock his impact and lifelong commitment to helping teach GA safety and save lives.🙏🏼 #RIPAdrian #AQP #ProbableCause

[@joehall7883]

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

[@dermick]

Good conversation - I noticed that the left-right sound channels seem to be reversed, at least they are for me. :)

[@HolladayAviation]

As you can probably tell I’m not a professional film maker! As I was setting up the camera for the interview, Alan started telling his story to another instructor who was standing behind the camera… Alan had his mic in his hand and hadn’t put it on yet. After a few minutes I noticed and took it from him, holding it at my side, then eventually I saw an opportunity to put it on him.

[@Mega_Trond]

No pilot should be able to fly, if you don't know how to fly in low visibility. it must be a requirement.

[@Jaxav8or]

Weather ALL last week was garbage and no go for VFR. Poor ADM.

[@mamulcahy]

Is this the same Dana Halladay from Westosha Flying club?

[@HolladayAviation]

Dana Holladay is my husband, yes!

[@mamulcahy]

@@HolladayAviation Outstanding! I flew at WFC with Dana in the 90s. I’m sad to see the airport closed. I sent Dana a friend request on FB. Please give him my regards. I’m glad to see you two are in the business!

[@ResortVideos805]

My CFI intentionally put me in a cloud as a joke during unusual attitude recovery. What should the penalty be for flying VFR into IMC?

[@HolladayAviation]

As a joke? It’s one thing for a CFI to request a short IFR clearance to expose a student pilot to IMC momentarily, at altitude, when there are plenty of outs (ie pop in and out through a few scattered clouds) but to intentionally bust VFR cloud clearances to upset a student is incredibly irresponsible.

[@ResortVideos805]

​@@HolladayAviation Yes as a joke right next to mountainous terrain on two sides, we were in the corner of a valley. And no there was not a clearance or discussion prior to the maneuver, it was a VFR flight. Other crazy things and violation of regs happened too. While returning to the airport after the cloud incident my CFI took control of the plane, looked out his window and began banking to my side. Going thru 30° I said bank angle going thru 45° I said Bank Angle going thru 60° I said BANK ANGLE!!! Somewhere between 60°-90° I put the yoke to wings level. He laughed and said he was testing me to see if I would act like a passenger or a pilot. He was inspired by something he'd seen on a @LewDixAviation video. I reported this to the owner of the flight school and suggested they have the aircraft grounded and inspected for the aerobatic maneuver. Of course the owner denied that this happened before speaking with their CFI. The CFI left the private school immediately and went to work for a university flight program as an instructor. The owner of the school stopped talking to me. I reported all of the above to the regional FSDO.

[@thatguy7085]

Turn around before going into the clouds… never turn around once in the clouds… in fact don’t turn even a little. If you enter IMC… the first thing you do is look at the attitude indicator… don’t change the aircraft attitude first or you will likely die. AGAIN… DO NOT TURN, SLOW DOWN, SPEED UP, or anything else before your eyes are fixated on the attitude indicator. Only then should you level the wings and make a very very slow climb. Do not try to hold a heading… keep wings level… then when you feel you are stable… squawk 7700! Do not turn, do not pass GO… squawk 7700. Look back at the attitude indicator… keep wings level… Look at it again… keep wings level… now after you have learned to fly level again… tune to 121.5 Do not try to look for the ATC frequency, they will look for you on 121.5. Again… look at your attitude indicator… Are you still level?… keep the plane level. Keep little airplane on attitude indicator LEVEL… Now… ATC will have gotten everyone away from you. ATC will being attempting to contact you. A supervisor will be called to the position. You will have your very own controller. Once you have contacted ATC, tell them you have accidentally entered IMC and you need no gyro turns to VFR conditions. This means they will tell you when to turn and when to stop turning… DO NOT TRY TO HOLD A HEADING. KEEP THE PLANE LEVEL When not told to turn, your only job… keep the wings LEVEL. If you feel sick… keep the wings on the little attitude airplane LEVEL and tell ATC unable to turn at the moment… Fly level until you feel OK… 5 to 10 min of level flight will screw your head back on. If you try anything else, you can and should have immediate certificate revoked.

[@HolladayAviation]

I’m reserving comments until we have a detailed report. Clearly, however, conditions were not good enough for a VFR cross country flight.

[@MrToddsCorner]

Hoping soon to be in Florida and training with Holladay Aviation. Picking up a Badland F5 Fujita ultralight soon. Video's like this can never emphasize enough the relevant information it contains on VFR fly or no fly situations, especially to an ultralight pilot. Sometimes it takes a sledgehammer to get through to people, so please, keep swinging in the name of safety and saving lives. Along with the important information provided here, I watched Mike Patey's presentation with the three strikes rule (kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmLRiZ2Gnaylrbs), along with this video, also highly recommended. Thank you, Holladay Aviation.

[@HolladayAviation]

Thank you so much!

[@jingle1161]

15:19 Weren't there any bad weather predictions @Craig at all from other sources ? IOW, what would have been the sign to not trust that green dot and call it a day?

[@HolladayAviation]

Alan alluded to this Re the cloud cover charts. Stationary front, widespread rain showers… lots of seemingly obvious clues. Very sad outcome.

[@jingle1161]

@@HolladayAviation Thanks. I just read a report about a similar accident here in the Netherlands. Weather can be very very treacherous here down the coastline. It's an interesting but chilling read that reminds us how quickly an enjoyable and relaxed flight can turn into horror. www.onderzoeksraad.nl/nl/media/attachment/2023/11/8/fatal_accident_dyn_aero_mcr01.pdf

[@kaasmeester5903]

Never trust the green dot… I’m a student pilot coming up on my check ride. That involves planning a longer cross country trip (which you won’t actually fly), and as my CFI told me, one of the more important questions the examinator will ask is: “Are we going to fly (the entire trip) today?” Somehow I think telling him “Yes we got green dots” is t going to cut it. 😊

[@pibbles-a-plenty1105]

Not being a pilot myself I can only wonder how much understanding of elementary physics is required by flight schools and private instructors in preparing a student for their pilot's license. How much "hangar flying" instruction starts the training, or is it a push to satisfy a youngster's desire to get into a cockpit and handle the controls long before he even knows what they do? Bear in mind, even the GA industry has it's slippery operators - perhaps a subject for future videos, Dan? "It's all about decision making." That cliche appears to be symptomatic of lousy flying pedagogy. It's like telling a six year old kid, "it's all about decision making" when teaching him to ride a bicycle. Flying an airplane is not just balance, inertia and situational awareness. It's also understanding the physical principles of flight, and maneuvers within the safe flying envelope of the aircraft, subjects beyond the ken of most 21 year olds - all before leaving the ground, in my unprofessional opinion. That kid was in no way ready to solo. I think some schools and instructors have principally their bank balance in mind instead of student learning. The weather will continue to rain bodies on the land.

[@jpoconnor5744]

They are required to take and pass a ground school. Most/all of what you discuss is covered. However, just like a 16 year old with their new driver’s license, much learning remains. In both cases, the focus is on the legalities and the basic maneuvers. The scenarios are what kill us. Most instructors include significant coverage of decision making. Of course, there is always room for improvement. And too many pilots who let ego and/or being in a rush cause bad decisions.

[@6by6by6]

That kid was way over his head long before he killed himself .. One bad decision after another all stack together until it all comes to a sudden catastrophe end… The insurance industry is going to eventually put an end to low time inexperienced pilots flying alone but until then they will continue flying into the ground..

[@azcharlie2009]

Two things are an absolute NO in general aviation. Thunderstorms, and icing. Don't mess with either!!!

[@HolladayAviation]

I’m not sure either of those were a factor in this crash… but agree with you!

[@Mobev1]

This is why I only fly a Cessna with a brs parachute!

[@HolladayAviation]

BRS is not a fix for poor decision making. It’s there to save you and your passengers if the airframe fails or if you become incapacitated.

[@Mobev1]

@@HolladayAviation trust me, there are hundreds of brs saves from poor decisions. Imo it’s a poor decision to even get into a plane with one engine and most airports that I look at on the east coast have very few options to land. Your comment sounded liberal smart but failed stats and facts.

[@lucmatter9601]

This is what happens if you tell people they have only 180 seconds to spare… training should include imc flying. AQP scenario if it isn’t already

[@HolladayAviation]

It’s not always possible, but in the past I’ve asked ATC for a short clearance to take a student through a cloud just to show them what it’s like to be right at the bases, then go into a cloud, then descend back out of it (or up through it). Foggles don’t prepare you for being completely enveloped in white.

[@non-revrider8485]

Flying 135 I’d get newly minted 250hr FO’s. It was a lot of fun to teach them how to actually fly IMC. They had the IFR ticket but actually flying to mins is a different animal.

[@psteen67]

Your reference right at the beginning implying that Dan Gryder would be an expert… got me to quit watching your video right there. Think about who you associate with if you want to grow your channel.

[@HolladayAviation]

Dan isn’t perfect and neither are you or me. Try to have some grace and learn something.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

His name is Paul Steen. He has had his channel and N18469 since 2009. So far a total of 67 subscribers for Paul in that 14 years, a total of 14,000 views. My video got 14,000 views in the first 2 hours and suddenly he is an expert on “how to grow your channel? I grew a channel from scratch to 103,000 subscribers in just over two years so I may be doing something right.

[@ramillerusa]

Well Paul , Dan does his best to save lives what do you do besides character assassination's ?

[@JimCar71]

Paul seems to be an expert at “growing” a channel 😂

[@mikeryan6277]

DG has over 100K subs seems like a good person to associate with if you want to grow a channel