"ill get it nerfed i dont care" i think that the most warrior statement ive ever heard
@Tristana.Keauna2 жыл бұрын
That was probably the most I've ever learned about DK - so awesome when someone is passionate about what they're talking about and Know what they're talking about, and is just straight forward about it, without being boring.
@Pokechamp6532 жыл бұрын
the DK discord is bonkers, you feel like a genius if you read in there
@visionsofentertainment2 жыл бұрын
During Wrath I started raiding as BDK and I started getting interested in theory crafting. I found the DK theorycrafting forum and I swear 90% of it was in Matlab. DK has always had a fantastic theorycrafting community
@MrBarbeler2 жыл бұрын
@@Pokechamp653 Got a link?
@Tae_942 жыл бұрын
@@MrBarbeler its called Acherus..search it on discord
@MrBarbeler2 жыл бұрын
@@Tae_94 thanks!
@Cube19902 жыл бұрын
Hey Max, thank u ! It's great that you involve the community and approach players who have "represented" the classes for years. This gives a very good overview
@blackllistd57522 жыл бұрын
The thing about the hunter theorycrafters is that they’re super realistic. They always keep in mind all players and not just the above average players. They’re also super informative in terms of why something is good or bad when you talk to them. The hunter theorycrafters are just really awesome at what they do.
@dawidmutwicki9442 жыл бұрын
Cause there are no above average huntards
@Luntrus1002 жыл бұрын
@@dawidmutwicki944 wow has no hard classes to begin with
@Dontaethefist2 жыл бұрын
@@Luntrus100 some take more brain than others tbf
@yankokassinof67102 жыл бұрын
@@Dontaethefist agreed
@Wellshem2 жыл бұрын
Hunter don't have that shity ego that some other classes usually have like SP for example lol
@mooninites7552 жыл бұрын
The only reason feral didn't get swamp ass is because he had a moonkin player rate them
@oxeroth2 жыл бұрын
@Cody uhhhhh???????
@visionsofentertainment2 жыл бұрын
The only feral player was busy
@joaoguerreiro52892 жыл бұрын
@@visionsofentertainment probably being tamed by a hunter
@yankokassinof67102 жыл бұрын
@@joaoguerreiro5289 isso foi engraçado
@Tyberes2 жыл бұрын
what a chad the warrior player. Max hoping for somebody, ANYBODY to put their class in S and the Warrior comes in DOUBLE S BABY
@Jackomack2 жыл бұрын
With great power comes great responsibility
@sheesh32142 жыл бұрын
Yea of the mace baby
@orcomon59552 жыл бұрын
Arms is mediocre but fury is gonna be really OP. A lot of versatility. But every single warrior will tell you "warrior is the best class in the game xd"
@freddiet86392 жыл бұрын
@@orcomon5955 I'm a warrior and it's definitely not the best but it is my favourite!
@christianprevost84552 жыл бұрын
@@orcomon5955 arms were strong in sod tought
@electricmayhem81472 жыл бұрын
kalamazi! best class representative of all the classes. that guy is hardcore s tier.
@HEEHEEBOII2 жыл бұрын
So if warrior is S tier then Enhancement is going to be S tier. Damn, gonna be a good patch lmao.
@nikok6652 жыл бұрын
"Rapid fire style" *glances at video length* LOL fr tho I love this long from content
@blacklily2502 жыл бұрын
Taeznak is so well spoken, could listen to him lecture wow knowledge all day 😍
@ReatuKrentor2 жыл бұрын
11:20 - Now we need a tier list for class communities.
@LongPape2 жыл бұрын
I feel very well represented as a warrior.
@Chibibowa2 жыл бұрын
Zug Zug style ;)
@drake50612 жыл бұрын
What you said about mages complaining about them being bad when they're normally good, that goes for Boomkins too
@randomjimbitz5122 жыл бұрын
Max, love your content, stuff or shit... whatever you want to call it ... I listen to you while I work and it just makes me laugh at some of your takes on players and the game in general. 👍
@KnallenN2 жыл бұрын
funny how they put destro in C tier knowing where it ended up
@Naesam2 жыл бұрын
For what it's worth this was like right before the ele sim bug was discovered. I'd easily put Ele in A with the new info.
@JS-skankhunt422 жыл бұрын
What was the bug about ?
@Naesam2 жыл бұрын
@@JS-skankhunt42 We discovered that sims didn't have rank 2 Lightning Bolt enabled, meaning the base cast time was 2.5s instead of 2s. Wasn't particularly relevant the rest of Shadowlands, but it makes the new Storm Ele build look way more enticing.
@Mindseas2 жыл бұрын
An hour to learn that basically all specs are roughly equal, although we don't quite know yet. Well that was time well spent ;D
@benjaminghazi7872 жыл бұрын
@Cody wtf you talking about. Affliction is garbage in almost every raid encounter. Fire mage is above average but not insane at all. Bro at least test them before talking wtf???
@durango30632 жыл бұрын
Kalamazi my boy. Church of warlocks ❤️
@fearmemortals2 жыл бұрын
Pretty glad Max didn't listen to chat and get Archimetros for warrior. Guy legit said arms would be the worst spec in the game for 9.1 and going back tiers and expansions he's been wrong far more than he's ever been right.
@gregthomson22992 жыл бұрын
Totally agree with that, have never understood why he’s considered so highly. Biz is a super good representative of Dps warrior as well. Would have liked to have heard some detail though, having dropped WoW a week or two into SL (and being a warrior main since ToT). I have played other specs for a tier or so, but always came back to warriors. They also always seem to scale well as the xpac goes on too.
@ihateiraq92 жыл бұрын
Damn that warrior made me want to reroll to warrior.
@Wellshem2 жыл бұрын
We're all gonna make it brah
@somerandominternetdweller2 жыл бұрын
I am glad to hear my main, that is a demo lock is the best spec for warlocks.😃
@King_Konglish2 жыл бұрын
I wish the warrior actually talked about the specs 🥴
@bayazwow2 жыл бұрын
Warrior: Joins call, slams both warrior specs in S tier, refuses to elaborate, leaves. GIGACHAD
@Wellshem2 жыл бұрын
Both warrior mindset and brain
@freddiet86392 жыл бұрын
Zug Zug
@diode_wow2 жыл бұрын
You don't need a deep dive, you push the buttons, you see the smash, you get big numbers.
@randyhalloway51682 жыл бұрын
Tldr: Necrofury zugs
@kasper12412 жыл бұрын
Boomkins are the Karens of WoW.
@tnaxpw2 жыл бұрын
Love Xeos, just put's it straight up OP and we good
@ccgamerlol2 жыл бұрын
even though there is some personal bias, I think its a way better tier list than some "plays all classes" guy... or just looking at data without knowing how some things influence class power or viability.
@SkullcandyEdit2 жыл бұрын
So we are completely okay with a Boomy hardcore simp putting Feral in mid C and it being the legit only class that didn't get represented? Psybear literally quit since the last video, the forums are burning, dreamgrove is a saltmine, how in gods name isn't he in at least swamp? Ffs our set is a copied worse legendary and the entire set gives us 700dps IN TOTAL. Bro, the hardest part of being a Feral main is not giving into the urge and finally ending it all holy fuck
@benjaminghazi7872 жыл бұрын
Blame feral disc for psybear quitting. It didn’t matter if he made that video or not, someone was. Maybe a day later maybe a week, maybe a month. But someone was going to do it. But the idiots on feral disc flamed him into oblivion like the idiots they are
@Mugahh2 жыл бұрын
Would be very cool to see how accuerate this tierlist was down the line maybe do a new tierlist and compare the 2
@Benrage3212 жыл бұрын
Post World First Tier List ayy
@20the202 жыл бұрын
not accurate, in case you're still wondering.
@Yawe__2 жыл бұрын
From his reactions is fairly obvious which ones he agrees with and which ones he doesn't lol
@chadbugansky2 жыл бұрын
Feral is simultaneously in the one of the best spots its ever been for a long time and one of the worst specs somehow. Idk how they can keep doing this.
@AlxndrXX2 жыл бұрын
Hybrid
@Waevform2 жыл бұрын
@@AlxndrXX but boomkin
@michaelpolazzo59642 жыл бұрын
It's nothing in particular, but boomkin is a boomkin
@balance16192 жыл бұрын
Lol. I was excited to play DK cause of buffs and it’s projected to be one of the worst specs. Again. 4th tier in a row. What a garbage company.
@Emer1ca1012 жыл бұрын
That DK should make KZbin videos and narrate my life for me.
@AyaSkylab2 жыл бұрын
Very disappointed about the ww comments, was hoping for some more involvement from the expert :( Anyways great video! Really interesting and fun mechanic! :D
@masonmcconnell93752 жыл бұрын
enhancement baby ive been playing enhancement since vanilla wow same toon glad to see them getting shine in 9.2
@steelegriffiths86502 жыл бұрын
The drama about AMZ ... seriously, do people really think Blizz was like "wut? that's a thing in the game? we didn't know about that - quick kill it guys!" As if they wouldn't have stats of where heals and absorbs are coming from, when they're being used and how big they are... Or are people imagining that it's more of a "Shit! They figured out that DKs have an AOE damage mitigation, that has been there since the class was released! Quick nerf it!" Then again, Blizz do seem to do their best to appear completely incompetent .. maybe I give them too much credit :\
@BloodDrenched-y6i2 жыл бұрын
Blizzard was ok with it being good and strong. They want classes to have more utilities and viable for raids. They didn’t like when raids stacked 3 to 4 of them. So they were forced to nerf it so it doesn’t crowd out other melee. I think they are too extreme with nerfs. They should just of added a debuff to amz so you get less benefit of another for a few minutes
@kail_60192 жыл бұрын
Classic warrior is back PogChamp
@hunterbell20662 жыл бұрын
Let's go Demo Warlock. Going to be insane with the tier and double lego. I'm new to warlock in general but I'm pumped to see how Demo looks at the new higher end gear levels
@andreicmello2 жыл бұрын
It's insane with 4 tier... double lego... situationally insane.
@hunterbell20662 жыл бұрын
@@andreicmello that's what I like to hear
@littlefinger30182 жыл бұрын
The shadowlands shadowpriest gutted the entire flow of legion and Bfa shadow and im so sad about it. I always hoped theyd catch him in the next Patch eventually but for me it keeps feeling so clunky to play in m+. I also heared from others who liked shadow before that they kinda dont like the new shadow, while New players prefer the changes a lot tho
@recckkless2 жыл бұрын
cant wait for the average pug to STILL be stuck in the "warrior bad" mindset
@Skocik9112 жыл бұрын
As a hunter main since vanilla, the class devs gave up after legion and it’s obvious.
@andrejjelcic36752 жыл бұрын
DK is going to be swamp ass. I am calling it.
@AlxndrXX2 жыл бұрын
I WANT DK TO BE GOOD
@andrejjelcic36752 жыл бұрын
@@AlxndrXX It's my main. But damn devs fuck us every patch and in a DK expansion. We got to be real, Warriors and Rogues have prefential treatmant.
@lulsauce2 жыл бұрын
Max! Can we have your playlist from the world first race ?? I love your music man
@nathana57182 жыл бұрын
max crushin on the dk guy 💕🥾
@sam_hek2 жыл бұрын
Searing nightmare is the worst button to press i agree.
@Blaubarsch252 жыл бұрын
Best ranking! Was really fun to watch. Wish you put out More KZbin Content. Would like to See this Kind of Video for m+
@jakefreas47942 жыл бұрын
I agree would be great but max doesn’t care about m+ personally lol so sadly for us it won’t be coming from him
@b4npsajd2 жыл бұрын
big brain idea, make M+ set bonuses (working only in dungeons) If you wanna go crazy also add pvp sets
@mrnoidea10092 жыл бұрын
Sure, let's add more things to balance :')
@rozz18642 жыл бұрын
these hunter predictions could not be worse
@rabindranathlunarios96312 жыл бұрын
So, only bring 1 mage for the int buff, roger that
@ronaldarce20122 жыл бұрын
The TRUE tier list
@clifflittle40552 жыл бұрын
hey max, will you be changing your tag from limit maximum to liquid maximum? just curios? It shows on your stream too
@jakubfilipek73002 жыл бұрын
"Man... I really need a hunter genius, but non of them are even average intelligence."
@Shield_OW2 жыл бұрын
warriors are too busy with the sigma male grindset to waste more than 30 seconds rating the class
@the_Wingading2 жыл бұрын
I feel like a super genius DH is like Forest Gump IQ right?
@Rigy7772 жыл бұрын
max fr needed that weight off his shoulders with DK AMZ
@Xantaga2 жыл бұрын
fuck yeah love xeos
@derpingtoast2 жыл бұрын
same
@kurtschloesser2 жыл бұрын
Love me some Kalamazi on the open. Thanks for the vid Max!
@ggsyth10812 жыл бұрын
Babe wake up Max just posted
@marshallpalfenier85842 жыл бұрын
Anyone know the chill outro music?
@jaredjamesimages2 жыл бұрын
Porcelain by Sadscarr
@1Dybuk2 жыл бұрын
9.2 shadowland Frost DK now is beast!
@vlasihinn2 жыл бұрын
So... Mike Yebara mains warrior and they will be op in new patch. Coincidence?;)
@jawshi9672 жыл бұрын
The whole Endscreen still says Limit
@LaptopmenaceMTK2 жыл бұрын
i don't trust anyone who calls ass rogue, "sin." Get out of here with that BS.
@Rendasd2 жыл бұрын
iRO only we were calling Assassins "Sins".. yes, over 20 years ago. lol
@sinnis49932 жыл бұрын
@@Rendasd back in the day it was called mutilate rogue...that was an abomination
@dgsunny232 жыл бұрын
Can you do a similar list for rated battlegrounds as well? Thanks.
@markuslc18882 жыл бұрын
unfortunately i have to agree with asuna when it comes to mages. fire would ve been high a tier with out the nerf, since 2pc and cov lego are shit and 4pc got heavily nerfed, it's b tier at best, especially without PI. frost also got nerfed, not only massively in aoe but also in 2t 3t and 4t, so the niche, that it was good at, ripped it from a to b, and idk why arcane was never strong or op on ptr, but blizzard decided to nerf the 2pc from 18% to 10% so that's also a impactful change, making it hard to put it in a tier, since it's a lottery spec, being strongly dependent on barrage crits, and getting a mechanic during the ramp, kills the try actually, so also b tier unfortunately accurate choice.
@sinnis49932 жыл бұрын
feels good that mages aren't s tier for 1 patch.
@sajway12 жыл бұрын
Imagine being a mage and complaining about anything
@markuslc18882 жыл бұрын
@@sinnis4993 mage wasn't s tier in raids for entire shadowlands, only in CN fire could keep up with PI at top upper third, but no mage spec ever was s tier
@sinnis49932 жыл бұрын
@@markuslc1888 fire mage was a god in CN, SoD arcane and frost were literally s- tier. stop defending mages when it's the single most broken class in wow. even dh was more balanced than mage will ever be.
@Nillowo2 жыл бұрын
This is going to be an interesting tier
@pr0digy1lol792 жыл бұрын
MM unblinking vigil legendary got bugfixed according to bluepost & if that is all good I think they'll be really strong
@johnjones40192 жыл бұрын
I main survival hunter, glad pvp however. I am most certainly a melee player and suck at mm and bm somehow lol. The hunter take was true
@LittleRedRubberDuck2 жыл бұрын
Awesome video, loved it! :)
@jeffl63942 жыл бұрын
BM will start out at mid B tier, but will fall off fast as people get set bonuses. Any non-casual BM Hunter will be pigeon-holed into Night Fae, as set bonuses conflict with Kyrian and Venthyr. That's disappointing, because the BM set bonus is entirely single target and would go well with Venthyr's single target focus if they didn't conflict. That being said, assuming no changes to the set bonuses, with 4pc and double legendaries, BM will likely struggle to stay out of the dumpster fire tier. BM set bonuses are garbage and need to be changed. A lot of specs need their tier sets adjusted, but I think BM is the only one that desperately needs a full rework.
@Sevatar_VIIIth Жыл бұрын
Well what do you think of BM hunters in PvE now in 2.3.5?
@itskhro2 жыл бұрын
After that warrior was on I'd put enhance in S tier as well just for their buffs lmao
@Chibibowa2 жыл бұрын
Brewmaster Monk, 2 warriors and 1 ele shamy. Ezgame, done xD
@kheath5802 жыл бұрын
warlocks and moonkins sandbag so hard that anything they say should immediately be suspect and they should be at least one tier higher than they say.
@coreymatthew6082 жыл бұрын
No way, locks need a buff for sure 👀
@electricmayhem81472 жыл бұрын
as much as i love demo there is no way it is s tier so not sure you are correct on that.
@AlxndrXX2 жыл бұрын
me, an aff lock
@suboptimal57982 жыл бұрын
Super good video idea.
@dexter60492 жыл бұрын
I just so hate what they do to feral... Why do they put so much hate on that specc? It just doesnt make any sense to me
@HypocrisyInbound2 жыл бұрын
As a feral main I’m kinda butthurt about this. Our single target is really good and we have lots of utility and we deserve a representation not a moonboi. Moonbois hate us so of course he shitted on us. Need more representation. Everybody else got someone knowledgeable about it.
@tidnid18692 жыл бұрын
surely it should be Sub: A Sin: low B Outlaw: low C
@christopherandrade77852 жыл бұрын
HOW DO YOU GET WARRIOR ON S? I main warrior and I can’t get this shit to slay 😂
@shalal92i2 жыл бұрын
Shaman enchance buff Hunt survival 😌😌 let'sgo ! Do it big damage !
@mitchzurbrigg24032 жыл бұрын
Hoping ret pally gets some love
@Gunship8882 жыл бұрын
Would be nice to be B tier for once this xpac
@benr9702 жыл бұрын
Surely we just need slightly less of a crazy burst so it isn’t as op in pvp and give us more base damage for our builders
@JS-skankhunt422 жыл бұрын
Are warriors really gonna be that good? If yes makes me wanna get mine back lol
@damienwyles65152 жыл бұрын
Ah yes, Someone who will roll fotm rather than a class they actually enjoy because someone tells them its gonna be insane
@postbloom97672 жыл бұрын
@@damienwyles6515 most warrior players from every xpac
@electricmayhem81472 жыл бұрын
demonology warlock a tier fuck yes!
@sheesh32142 жыл бұрын
Year of the mace
@HESOMADBRO2 жыл бұрын
There's no way Havoc won't be S tier for raiding. They were clearly S tier in SoD and have received huge buffs in forms of double leggo. Even in M+ it will have outstanding priority/boss damage and the 4 piece means less cooldown on our huge uncapped damage cooldown. Also Affli and Outlaw are swamp ass no doubt.
@flowolf41892 жыл бұрын
The reason the 4 piece is possible trash is because our meta will be around 3 mins at best & if we have to HOLD due to mechanics, then the tier set loses it’s benefit. DH is being forced into Venthyr for raids, which is alright I guess because I love Demonic builds, but we are not a dot management class. Feels weird.
@zachariaszacharias12062 жыл бұрын
YOU are giving 3 minutes to Kalamazi??? :D :D
@kasper12412 жыл бұрын
The logic thrown around Enhancement can really be used for any class buff. You can also put the Mage specs in S tier then because of AI.
@phatymcdaddy2 жыл бұрын
Warriors gain a ton from WF. Definitely more than any one class gains from AI. Enhance with full tier is also doing really really good dmg that bumps them high up
@kasper12412 жыл бұрын
@@phatymcdaddy AI will still have an overall larger impact than WF since it affects all caster classes + healers. So if you use WF as an argument for Enhancement being an S tier spec then you can use the same argument for e.g. Mages. I'm fine with Enhancement being in A tier, but a spec that you're only going to bring one of because of a class buff is not a S tier spec.
@Pilek012 жыл бұрын
Oh look ret on the bottom again. Last time ret was good is Wrath of the Lich King and that is 13-14 years ago xD
@Ninnyism2 жыл бұрын
seeing ret at C tier makes me cackle, please.
@jonhagood88232 жыл бұрын
Hhhhhhhear me out. 8 warriors, 2 enhance, and 4 demo?
@neonknives39292 жыл бұрын
Fire goes straight into the B-hole
@MrDoit1872 жыл бұрын
if windwalker had no raidbuff. it be turbo swamp ass XD
@MarkElf22042 жыл бұрын
Not surprising, just disapointing at this point, that BM Hunter is still lower-middle of the pack all of SL despite all the claims that it scaled well towards the end of expansions to make up for it
@lordjulian102 жыл бұрын
Who tf said bm scales well. Classe that scale well are classes that have fundamemntal synergies with secondarty statts that have really specific stat priorities, or just have disgustingly op expansion mechanic abuse, in this case covensnts(and leggod). Bm doesnt care much about secondaries and cares much more about primary stats because so much of its damage is pets. Same thing with dk’s.
@paxtonjolly79752 жыл бұрын
@@lordjulian10 this actually isnt entirely correct, BM was disgusting in nyalotha because they had enough crit to maintain frenzy stacks 100%. BM used to fall off because pets scaled poorly, thats not the case anymore. For whatever reason their damage and crit just hasnt scaled enough this expac to be very very good.
@asiano5502 жыл бұрын
@@paxtonjolly7975 The reason they haven't scaled so well is the lack of Dance of Death azerite power. We can still maintain Frenzy with close to 100% uptime and don't even need that much secondaries to do so. BM likes having stats but agility is the one that carries.
@blackllistd57522 жыл бұрын
@@paxtonjolly7975 the main reason bm scaled well in bfa was because the Azerite gear faces stats which is what scaled. Bm itself doesn’t have that scaling.
@alexandrajohnston41662 жыл бұрын
moonkin players make me want to throw up
@ralphherdman50732 жыл бұрын
Tettles is cringe af for sure
@Frosty616.2 жыл бұрын
I can’t wait to clown on folks on my feral. A good player on a lower spec is always better than an OK player on a meta spec. This is gonna be a fun season
@mklk73772 жыл бұрын
Demono it's rank S here
@noaboa56702 жыл бұрын
Outlaw dream no longer D class baby. But also people are vastly underestimating tier bonus. Especially with blunderbus leggo lots of synergy with tier bonus.
@Handcannon772 жыл бұрын
Yeah...so much synergy that blunderbuss lego still isnt even better than Celerity kekw
@noaboa56702 жыл бұрын
@@Handcannon77 have you tried it with set bonus? I still use celerity but was testing out others on ptr. You can essentially get off 9 free pistol shots. But by all means snarky comments without anything to add are a great tool in theory crafting. 👍
@Handcannon772 жыл бұрын
@@noaboa5670 Yes, I tested a lot of Kyrian outlaw on the PTR...everyone thought that the build could be strong with the tier set but it just ended up being underwhelming and still outperformed by celerity in ST(and obviously in aoe), which goes to show that even though there appears to be "lots of synergy" it just isnt stronger than celerity. All it really offers is a bit more prio damage/burst. Either way Outlaw isnt looking great, its ST before tier set/2 lego is pretty bad and even with those things its ST is still pretty underwhelming, especially compared to the other 2 rogue specs. And its pretty much going to be a dead spec in m+ outside of maybe ToP if it is still going to be capped, Prot Pals and Brewmasters will literally out DPS outlaw regularly on pulls >5 targets(and big pulls will likely become more prevalent with 4 set/2 legos, effectively making Outlaw's damage profile useless). But people will likely still play Sub in ToP in high keys too. Outlaw's 5 target damage isnt even top tier compared to others with tier/2 lego either, theres plenty of specs who can outperform it while also actually not being target capped which means Outlaw is largely irrelevant then.
@arforafro55232 жыл бұрын
@@noaboa5670 Feelcraft lel
@ivank.12602 жыл бұрын
GIGACHAD warrior
@iyziejane2 жыл бұрын
All these detailed analyses and for Warrior its just "S tier, definitely, k bye"
@burn92952 жыл бұрын
war master class obviously
@Mojoremixxx2 жыл бұрын
YES WARRIORS MY LOVE
@technicolorsoultheory39242 жыл бұрын
Why are they all watching max’s stream lmfao
@bjimmy27962 жыл бұрын
As a mage main since vanilla, C- after that nerf to frost. Completely ruined the spec and has such small burst windows it’s out right unplayable. Other wise you just sit still and cast frost bolt looking to proc. They ruined mages.
@momentofenlightenment60042 жыл бұрын
What? Before nerf frost was really super broken… they are still S tier if u played the game you would know
@richardjones88462 жыл бұрын
43:00 yeah it's a real fucking problem. hunter used to be the utility, mobile spec that had hunter jobs... now we're a piece of shit physical caster that's worse than destruction in single/cleave, and only clawing to viability because of covenant ability. meanwhile warlock... complete bullshit loaded utility that's also UNIQUE to them. it's such a fucking joke how many hunters they made quit/reroll bcus of their bias. 43:54 we used to... then BFA.
@Zutraxi2 жыл бұрын
So this is only DPS? Or are they considering utility. Then outlaw and shadow should be below unholy and ret?