Al Murray explains why the Battle of Arnhem was one of Britain’s greatest defeats

[@andyfoofoo5759]

My old man now deceased at near 100 years of age was there. Tony Orsi was his name. Bless him and his compadres for his bravery and efforts.

[@louisdisbury9759]

Most of them had already seen to much action and were hardened veterans, Their lives should never have been squandered on this reckless operation.

[@jamestanis3274]

@@louisdisbury9759 They still honor the Allied dead in Arnhem on Sept 17th,

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@jamestanis3274 The entire operation was a mistake.

[@RobBremner]

@@louisdisbury9759 It wasn't reckless. Some of the planning was poor, but the problem was the weather turned too bad for air cover to operate, either poor weather forecasting or command not understanding (or ignoring) that aircraft cannot fly in zero visibility. My father was there, he was a Hawker Tempest pilot.

[@gmf121266]

On behalf of my old man, who was also a para, allow me to give a salute to your Dad, Tony, from him and me. Utrique Paratus!

[@elainejerrom8248]

My dad, Bill Roberts from Sheffield, who would have been 98 if he were still here, was a paratrooper there. He always said how brave the Dutch people were, opening doors and letting the trapped troops run through houses and dodge bullets. He got out by swimming the Rhine eventually. He harrumphed at A Bridge Too Far too.

[@grahamkelly5846]

My dad was exactly the same

[@davidsummer8631]

My grandfather was British parachutist who fought at the Battle of Arnhem he survived the battle but spent the rest of the war in a P.O.W camp in Germany and after the war he would return every year back to Arnhem and was always welcomed back by the people of Arnhem

[@grahamkelly5846]

@@davidsummer8631 well done to your Grandfather, by dad was exactly in the same situation, I would have loved to have taken him back to Arnem, as I know all there welcome these soldiers for the heroes thy were but sadly he passed in 1966 at 42, miss him still ✌️

[@gmf121266]

My dad was a para shortly after the war. On behalf of him, and myself, allow me to salute your grandfather and thank you for sharing his story.

[@crazylegz324]

I know in the States, when we think of the paras’ last stand at Arnhem, there’s immense admiration. It’s like a British Alamo and it really resonates with us.

[@timphillips2902]

A few Brits fought at the Alamo.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@timphillips2902 The defenders of the Alamo fought to preserve slavery.

[@adriansmith3427]

Rorke's drift!

[@warrenland5382]

Im ex 3 Para, we did the rememberence parade at Arnhem in the mid 80's, I was 19 at the time, local people and children were thanking us... it was very humbling.

[@hennokeers4641]

Thank you. I was at school in Oosterbeek then. We laid flowers at the cemetery. That was from 78 t'ill 82.

[@DonWan47]

Thanking you, for what?

[@gookazade1]

My grandad was at Arnhem. On the 17 sept he was handed a letter. It was telling him my mum had been born. He was told to destroy the letter once read. He didn’t, he slit the sole of his boot and hid it. He managed to survive Arnhem and the rest of the war,,,, liberating camps etc. I now have that letter in a box and it is treasured.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

The Allies did not "liberate" anyone.

[@tonywhitby8602]

​@@Jeremy-y1tThis man is talking about a war hero, so shut your mouth and show some bloody respect.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@tonywhitby8602 The only heroes were on the anti-Communist side.

[@berylturner5558]

​@@Jeremy-y1tclown

[@alidabaxter5849]

​@@Jeremy-y1tFrom which insane asylum are you writing?

[@davidhughes897]

Love how Holland take care of our fallen even today and thank you too the flower children.

[@clivebennett7985]

My dad George Bennett was there 1st airborne division. He passed in 1997. My absolute hero❤❤

[@nucleargaz1]

Was he in the RASC, I seem to remember seeing a photo of a guy called Bennett posing in cord trousers, Denison Smock & Mk5 Sten after swimming the Rhine?

[@clivebennett7985]

@nucleargaz1 not sure to be honest but I know he wasn't a great swimmer. I will ask my brother though he's totally into things like this and has many military books etc and probably knows more about dad than me

[@frances7243]

Al sells his book just my his sheer enthusiasm alone and, of course, he writes so well.

[@markparry6407]

If you haven't already, the KZbin channel he has with James Holland, Walking the ground" is well worth a watch.

[@VodkaRob]

My grandad was taken prisoner in Operation Market Garden. He was an officers driver and he was told he didn't have to go but he went anyway. They were built differently back then. And we must never forget that bravery that gives us our freedom today.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

People would never support an imperialist war now. Britain lost its freedom due to World War II. Britain and France were denying half of the world its freedom in 1939-45.

[@makeitsonumberone1358]

Now people get upset over a mean tweet 🙄, God bless your grandad and all those that forte

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@makeitsonumberone1358 Britain was on the wrong side.

[@Moggy471]

@@Jeremy-y1ttroll and idiot.

[@digegr61]

My Great Uncle was in this battle and had to swim the Rhine. He then also was in the 1946 film Theirs is the Glory, but he died in that.

[@bernardbarn]

More information please! What happened to him?

[@davidlavigne207]

I'm glad that there are people such as Al Murray and yourself my dear host that still care about what happened at Arnhem, that still manage to address what really happened then. I grew up on the Cornelius Ryan "A Bridge too Far" view of what happened at Arnhem, The woods, and at Oosterbeek. I never examined the other circumstances of the forces trying desperately to relieve 2nd Para. Brilliant discussion. This was very relevant to the actual events.

[@roodborstkalf9664]

You should read Beevor's book on Arnhem.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

@roodborstkalf9664 Absolutely not. He's too reticent to criticise the American commanders such as Brereton and Williams or even Eisenhower. It would have hurt his sales in the USA.

[@johnburns4017]

@@roodborstkalf9664 Beevor's book is garbage, not homing in on the 82nds failure at Nijmegen.

[@roodborstkalf9664]

@@johnburns4017 I remember otherwise.

[@johnburns4017]

@@roodborstkalf9664 Give us the page focusing on the 82nds failure, and the reason for the failure, to seize the Waal bridge on the 1st day?

[@jamesross1799]

This battle (along with the bomber command offensive) has captivated me since my earliest memories. Knowing that people you love had actually been there just ads another dimension to it . I can't wait to read als new book.

[@chrisholland7367]

I would have thought that the fall of Singapore ranks as one of Britain's greatest defeats

[@robertshiell887]

Both debacles would fall into the category of “one of the worst” British defeats.

[@a1aprospects470]

I agree... surrendering without fighting to a smaller force was shameful especially considering the commander knew the Japanese would be ruthless with the prisoners and civilians.

[@chrisholland7367]

@a1aprospects470 It was estimated that 130,000 British and commwealth troops surrendered to the Japanese. These included men from the Maylayan campaign who made it into Singapore before the surrender. It stands as one of the biggest capitulations in the history of the British Army they were sentenced to three and half years of brutal captivity, and many thousands would never see their homes again.

[@eric934]

Arnhem doesn't come close to Singapore. It was part of a larger operation so seeing it as a single battle and defeat is nonsense.

[@VK6AB-]

Fall of Tobruk, Singapore and Arnhem all due to poor general staff leadership.

[@csh5414]

I’m off there this Friday for the 80th Anniversary. RIP Lads, see you there.

[@johnnicol6089]

Loved this pod, great history outlooks... please keep these coming. Al Murray much respect also.

[@SusiB13]

My dad was also a para at Arnhem, he got out by swimming the Rhine. He would have been 100 years old August 2024.

[@grahamkelly5846]

@@SusiB13 my dad did the same but was shot and wounded dragged out of the Rhine to prisoner of war in Stalag X1... ✌️

[@VrillonAura2012]

I been to the grave of my relative who was in Market Garden a member of the early R.E.M.E Regiment he was buried in Nijmegen British war graves - hardly any of them over 25 years old

[@tarquinmidwinter2056]

On the 10 mile bike path that connects Arnhem and Nijmegen there's a monument marking the furthest extent of allied ground forces towards Arnhem. It is nearer to Arnhem than it is to Nijmegen, and from it the taller buildings in Arnhem city center are visible. Just shows what a close thing it was. And yes, even though the failure to take the bridge at Arnhem was a disaster for everyone in the northern part of the Netherlands, followed as it was by the 'hunger winter', Dutch people still celebrate it and thank the allies for their efforts.

[@paulzweers784]

The bridge at Arnhem was NOT the failure, it was the bridge at Nijmegen. John Frost said, we lost Arnhem at Nijmegen.

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

Yes with better planning it would have been a great success . It was poorly planned as lots of advice was stubbornly ignored by high command. Market garden was woefully short of gliders so the drops had to be staggered much more than was wise. Buy on the whole still a success

[@jamestanis3274]

In Sept. of 1977 I was living a small town just outside of Arnhem and on Sept 17th there was a "wandeltocht" -- or "walking tour" -- to raise money for, among other things, the yearly upkeep of the cemetery of the Allied fallen in Market Garden. Yes, the Dutch still remember.

[@eileenpotts6126]

​@@jamestanis3274 I have friends in Holland and have joined the Wandeltocht twice. Nederlanders of all ages join in to remember all who came to help.

[@jamestanis3274]

@@eileenpotts6126 I am *so* pleased that younger generations are learning what my uncles fought for -- and I'm nearly 60.

[@chelseachelseaboy]

The best book I've read so far regarding Arnhem was William F Buckingham's Arnhem, Beevor's book was a let down overall it came across as a series of anecdotes strung together, I'm going to have to buy Al's book and see if there's anything new, I have relatives living there and it's quite true the people of Arnhem really do fly the flags.

[@jamestanis3274]

Rightly or wrongly, Ryan is still, I think, considered the absolute "must read". I also recommend "It Never Snows in September" although it's quite dry.

[@chelseachelseaboy]

@@jamestanis3274 I would highly recommend Buckinghams book as he had access to all Ryan’s original notes which he didn’t add to his book probably due to his publishers worrying about the length of the book back when it was written.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Buckingham goes to easy on the air forces. It was the caution of the air commanders that doomed the operation. Buckingham's book blames the ground forces. Buckingham was an airman himself and his book is full of bias. He is another author, like Beevor, too reticent to criticise the Americans in case it affects sales in the USA. The best overall work on Market Garden as a complete overview is the massive two volume Market Garden Then And Now.

[@jockhughes]

Love the fact Al has got 79th and 11th Armoured Division badges on his guitars. All hail Major General Sir Percy Cleghorn Stanley Hobart CB DSO MC. Absolute legend.

[@Supergeologist]

You have to remember that following the Normandy landings and the breakout across France the allied populations had an expectation that the war would be over by Christmas. By late summer the allies were on the German border, Eisenhower and the allied generals were under increasing political, civilian and newspaper editorial pressure to 'get the job done' . Hodges in the centre was getting stuck in the Hurtgen and sustaining heavy casualties. Patton in the South was floundering around outside Metz, both were going nowhere. So when Monty presented his plan of 'Market Garden' it was the only straw that Eisenhower had to please the politicians and public. Having romped across France the allies were suffering from what the Japanese call 'victory disease'. The disaster that unfolded shows that well.

[@jamestanis3274]

Though it odd that the guy who wrote in *May* of 1944 about how airborne troops should not, in his opinion, ever be dropped too far behind enemy lines (source: Steven Ambrose, Band of Brothers -- though I left my copy on a plane and so can't copy the quote) would then have approved Market-Garden in late *August*. That's a fairly significant turn about in philosophy in just a few..well...weeks really.

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

In regards to Operation Market Garden. That was mainly a US plan that was loosely based on Operation Comet, which Monty cancelled because it was too risky. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_H._Brereton#:~:text=After%20alerts%20and%20cancellations%20of,but%20then%20cancelled%20by%20Montgomery.

[@xl51956]

Enjoyed that interview "short and sweet" with well rounded questions and responses..😊😊

[@michaelwilkinson2928]

Pegasus Bridge was taken on D-Day due to a specially trained team. Unfortunately the same team or method of taking a bridge wasn't used at Arnhem.

[@jamestanis3274]

The 3 (4?) gliders in PB were able to land within *yards* of the bridge whereas the First Airborne had to land 7 *miles* from the bridge at Arnhem. It was simply a completely different type of operation. Sill, the PB op was certainly one for the textbooks.

[@mariafrost1762]

Interesting interview. Dad (also called John Frost) was in the 11th Armoured (not at Arnhem but nearby) and my Uncle (German mum) was in the 10th SS Frundsberg at Arnhem.

[@peterrose9886]

Denison smock casually draped over Al’s chair! Love the ‘Walking the ground” KZbin channel👍

[@johnhodgetts2111]

It would have been good if when he was listing the British regiments involved, he had mentioned that Polish paratroopers played a significant role in the operation.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Not really. They didnt drop until a week later. The operation was long decided by then and less than 100 Polish paras were killed. 1st British Airborne had over ten times the fatalities.

[@Filmbuf-g2k]

Im hooked on Al and James podcasts ..Their Normandy series during the Anniversary of D-Day week was brilliant...will be ordering Al,s book

[@ayrshireman1314]

Yet the man who regarded it as a partial victory was the German Parachute legend Kurt Student. As he saw it as giving the British and Allies as a great jump off for their later Rhine crossing.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

I Quite right. Too many people ignore the fact that the rest of Market Garden suceeded. The Germans retreated and lost nearly 100km of ground including Eindhoven and Nijmegen and British 2nd Army indeed used the area captured in Market Garden to invade Germany from.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@lyndoncmp5751 That was only to save western Europe from the USSR.

[@andyclayton5401]

History with Al Murray... I'd definitely pay for that, I wish he'd been my school teacher. If you can make a lesson sound interesting then ppl will listen... God bless the paras x

[@Jeremy-y1t]

He is a fake historian.

[@williamronaldchampion772]

I had a uncle who fought there, was shot in the neck, survived, won the military medal.

[@denzildexter6703]

Grew up watching bridge to far with my dad.. so many brave men ❤

[@victornewman9904]

The tragedy of Jim Gavin's 48hr delay in taking the Bridge at Nijmegan is never mentioned.

[@neddyseagoon9601]

Nothing in all of this was a failure... Fighting and at the last, not taking a final objective fails to understand the damage done to enemy forces and morale as 30 Corp, pushed through their objectives.

[@victornewman9904]

@@neddyseagoon9601 48 hrs. On the other hand, the V2 sites did move back, and 5/6 bridges were taken.

[@PalleRasmussen]

Al and James talk about it in the podcast, so yes it is.

[@garymathison8361]

@@victornewman9904 but who took it in the end. The 82nd AB were in support of the guards tanks which were crossing the bridge as the 82nd were crossing the river in boats.

[@victornewman9904]

@garymathison8361 Eventually, 48 hours later with 1 Bn of 82 AB. What was the rest of the 82 AB doing: writing their memours?

[@Eric-the-Bold]

Late 1960`s I was working at CAV Acton an Engineering factory. A Pole who was a brush hand was pointed out to me as a former Polish General in WW2. Well pull the other one. He turned out to be Gerneral Sosabowski. Was he disowned by the British, or he could he not go home ?

[@thevillaaston7811]

Sosabowski was given a right of abode in Britain under the terms of the Polish Resettlement Act 1947.

[@roodborstkalf9664]

The British blamed Sosabowski for their own failings.

[@thevillaaston7811]

@@roodborstkalf9664 'The British blamed Sosabowski for their own failings.' Its a definite no.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

​@@roodborstkalf9664How come Browning was got rid of first? It was two American USAAF generals, Brereton and Williams, who made the most fatal decisions that doomed Market Garden, but they never accepted culpability. Also, Eisenhower was in overall charge of both the ground and air forces.

[@chaosad4508]

​@thevillaaston7811 It is definite yes. Sosabowski warned Montgomery about how fatal this can be, but he was firstly silenced and then after the mission taken responsibility. Montgomery wasn't very smart but smart enough to cover up his failures. It's shameful what British did to their allies just to stop here.

[@johnburns4017]

Market Garden was *not* to end the war by Christmas. It was to set up the northern end of a pincer on the Ruhr. The US First Army was to be the southern pincer. The British Second Army under Dempsey was to consolidate at Arnhem in preparation for the advance on the Ruhr, which was not a date yet fixed. Market Garden was a corps above Eindhoven, far too small an operation to run off to Berlin.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Indeed. Even if Arnhem was taken and a bridgehead established there, British 2nd Army would have had to wait until US 1st Army moved beyond Aachen to the Rhine so both armies could advance on the Ruhr together in a pincer movement. The Ruhr was and is a huge area, from Dusseldorf to Dortmund. No single army could have taken all of it. The US 1st Army, however, failed to get much beyond Aachen even by December, and stalled in the Hurtgen Forest.

[@shumyinghon]

nothing beats the Singapore campaign, '42

[@PHDiaz-vv7yo]

I might have to get this. I’m obsessed with Market Garden, if only for A Bridge Too Far. And I really don’t know enough about it (Btw- I love a pyrrhic victory. The massacre at Karbala, Apollo 13, England at Italia 90, me failing finals at St George’s) I’m off to search for History Undone

[@roodborstkalf9664]

Read Beevor's book on Arnhem.

[@rumoursofwar4624]

Reading Martin Middlebrooks Arnhem right now which is excellent, but fascinating to hear Murrays counter argument that the chosen LZs were the only real option, its the 3 routes to the bridge and the splitting up of the force that were folly.

[@Aliameem]

Dear Al. You / The Pub Landlord has made me laugh so much . I just want to say thank you for that. I myself am a Muslim and Tea Totaler . Which I guess is why your character makes it all the more hikarious. You are a genius .

[@Jeremy-y1t]

He's just an Anglophobic racist.

[@StanleyWareham]

Such a contrast between The pub landlord and the historian, Al Murray is brilliant at both, my father was still a child during ww2 but what was later his regiment, the Dorsets were there. Anybody who was there was a true hero

[@Jeremy-y1t]

He is an unfunny fifth-rate "comedian" who constantly ridicules the UK's armed forces.

[@lensmann100]

Arnhem? Nought but a minor setback compared to the defeat at Singapore-as an Oxford graduate, Murray should know that.

[@trevorhart545]

APPLES & PEARS. SINGAP0RE BIGGEST DEFEAT IN HIST0RY F0R N0 REAL REAS0N EXCEPT BAD LEADERSHIP AT THE T0P. ARNHEM WAS DASHING UNREALISTIC H0PE .THAT FAILED LGISTIC PLANNING BY A FIELD MARSHALL WH0 INSISTED 0N WAITING UNTIL HE HAD C0MPLETE C0VER. WE TALK AB0UT ARNHEM THE SAME WAY THE THE YANKS NEVER ST0P TALKING AB0UT THE GL0RI0US, HER0IC DEFEAT AT THE ALAM0.

[@Scaleyback317]

That may well be true. I lived in Singapore and Johore in the '60's so talked to local people with fresh memories of the horror and expats who left the forces and remained in the area. There are myths surrounding the story of why Singapore fell but the architects of that were the mandarins in London in the early 30's and the lassez faire which infected the colonial populations right up until the Japanese set foot on the Malay peninsular. One of the best books on the subject IMHO is Peter Elphicks Singapore The pregnable fortress.

[@matttaylor9445]

They were warned by the Dutch resistance about 2 SS panzer divisions but ignored the warnings!! A terrible oversight! Someone should of been accountable for all those Allied deaths!

[@peteb8556]

Yes true, they were having some R&R and having a refit for their tanks/panzers. These battle hardened troops were resting around that area after retiring from the Eastern Front, so were certainly no pushover. The paras had no real weaponry to go against tanks.

[@martynayshford4318]

@@peteb8556 Look at the map and look at where the fighting was and look at the timing. The key failure (and in fact the only one that matters) is that Nimjegen bridge was not taken, had it been then Arhem would have ended very differently. 30 core were not slow. Had the bridge been held they would steamed straight on. Who is accountable - General Gavin.

[@Trebor74]

Forgetting that Germany had infiltrated a lot of resistance networks and was untrusted.

[@garymathison8361]

@@matttaylor9445 Those SS were at 30% strength and had no tanks at that time. There was a training regiment nearby with some obsolete tanks by that stage of the war and first AB were equipped with significant anti tank capability to deal with them. This was all known. They did not ignore intelligence. What they did know was that dutch resistance had been compromised.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

They didn't ignore it. 1st Airborne took along over 50 anti tank guns, which was far more than the Germans had tanks in the area. After reports of strengthening German forces, the original idea (Operation Comet, involving only the British and Polish paratroopers) was considerably enlarged into Operation Market Garden with the inclusion of the two American paratroop divisions. This almost TRIPLED the paratroop forces.

[@davematthews3534]

Found out 15ys ago, when it was declassified, that my granddad was a pilot who did recce flights over arnhem taking pics of potential landing sights.

[@roodborstkalf9664]

The site they choose in Wolfheeze was not good.

[@jamestanis3274]

@@roodborstkalf9664 No, but choices were thin. Might that suggest that perhaps this wasn't a good plan overall? Apparently not. Of course there is always the argument that the Allies *really* *really* thought the German in west were done with absolutely no fight left in them, so they were probably thinking it didn't really matter much that it wasn't an ideal site.

[@johngibson6597]

I don't agree with this guy saying that Brits celebrate defeat more than victory it's just that despite defeat we do not pretend it didn't happen and recognise the bravery in adversity.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

It failed because of the caution of the air commanders in not flying double missions on day one and not dropping closer to the main target. Urquhart was also the wrong man to lead 1st Airborne. Market Garden was not meant to end the war before Christmas. It's only immediate goals were a bridge over the Rhine and a move north to the coast to cut off the western Netherlands. That was it. No move into Germany was planned until the Americans to the south could move forward beyond Aachen and draw level. As we know, the Americans had their own multiple failures that same autumn with the Hurtgen Forest and Lorraine debacles .

[@jamestanis3274]

Who else has read "It Never Snows in September" (I suspect either very few or nearly all -- I'm not at all sure which way it will go)?

[@garywagner2466]

I own it. Interesting account.

[@gmf121266]

It's funny how much in common, I feel I have with Al. Like his dad, my dad did national service but with the royal signals and joined the paras later on after failing 1st time. He also took me to see the film, a bridge too far and told me where they had made mistakes. One of my dads commanding officers in the 1st/6th airlanding brigade was a man called Geoffrey Pine Coffin, who had taken part in D day and also the Rhine crossing.

[@NeilPotter-co8hq]

In response to @chelseachelseaboy below I agree about Beevor's book. It did feel rather disjointed to me. I have had Buckingham's book on my shelf unread for quite a few years (like many books that I buy and really intend to get round to reading). Having read your comment I will ensure it gets read in the very near future along with, I suspect Al Murray's book!

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Both books are too reticent to criticise the fatal American decisions in case it affects sales in the USA. This is rather cowardly.

[@terrymoore9388]

Briliant video. Thanks 😊

[@petemansell9002]

Visiting the site along with a new memorial of where flight LK 170 crashed in Eede, Netherlands resupplying the paras at Arnhem, this week. Remembering our relative flight sergeant Ewart John and his crew. We will remember them

[@neddyseagoon9601]

1980s I worked with a guy who got out of Arnhem... Married a German lady when on garrison duty just after the war and he won awards for charity work in Europe with a German para who was at one time, according to records, less than 100 yards from him at Arnhem...

[@Jeffybonbon]

I am sorry i cant take this guy seriously he has never served a day in his life and has so much to say a real Barrack Room Lawyer

[@simoncampbell-smith6745]

This is not the greatest British defeat of World War 2. I am afraid that goes to the utter debacle that was the surrender of Singapore.

[@IRISHSALTMINER61]

Uncle Arthur was shot and wounded, later died of his wounds… Was proud to follow his steps into the Airborne…

[@dpelpal]

I am Russian, living to Samara. It is almost a laughing to figure that Russia now lost more men in Ukraine that Britain did in World War 2! And my Russia not even control 15% of Ukraine😲

[@dpelpal]

@Bootq1989 There is reason why people are queued up at UK and USA border to get in....and Russian are queued up at Russian border to get OUT

[@alangordon3283]

Lies.

[@jonfallis305]

so what?

[@dpelpal]

​@@jonfallis305Many Russian want to leave Russia😒

[@jonfallis305]

@@dpelpal quite understand, no war is good

[@MorningtonCrescent]

Al Murray needs to switch careers. Pub Landlord OK, but his cultural and historical outlook is very engaging. His series on German history/psyche is spot on.

[@johnburns4017]

He is better at being a comedian.

[@TheGrowler55]

Rule Britannia from Glasgow, just saying 🇬🇧😎👊

[@Jeremy-y1t]

The Suez Crisis showed Britain no longer mattered at all.

[@grumpyoldman8661]

Actually, 30th Corps reached Nimjegen Bridge right on time. Their being late is a myth. Alas, US General Gavin had failed to secure the bridge and 30th Corps had to assist in the battle, which took up valuable time and doomed the British paras at Arnhem. (UK).

[@martynayshford4318]

Exactly, it's not Arnhem, it's Nimjegen that's the problem, had US airbourne done what they were tasked with doing on their first day, 30 core would have got to Arnham and relieved the para's. Why they were faffing about securing heights remains a mystery to this day, not to mention a tragedy, the plan was to take a corridor and without taking every bridge it would fail and with out a doubt the Nimjegen was the key one, literally nothing else mattered, take and hold bridge under 30 core got there. Nimjegen bridge was initially undefended, by the time they went to take it the Germans were in a position to mount a determined defence.

[@grumpyoldman8661]

@@martynayshford4318 Many thanks for fleshing that out for me. Grumpy.

[@ramonlijauco7563]

If anything can go wrong, it will. The greater the number of things that can fail; the greater the probability that the whole will fail. Montgomery tried to as daring as Patton and took too many changes.

[@Colonel_Blimp]

@@ramonlijauco7563 you do know that after the breakout from Normandy Montgomery went further and faster than Patton.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

​@@ramonlijauco7563Patton was only daring when there were no Germans in the way. His Lorraine campaign was the most costly failure of autumn 1944. 3 months to move 10 miles to Metz?

[@KavanOBrien]

My uncle was part of that Battle , so I was told why it failed by him who was a staff sergeant in the paras , and still have is medal , so I wonder if I’m going to hear is thoughts compared to others , will I hear the story about the radio not working I wonder?

[@KevinRudd-w8s]

Montgomery was not in overall charge of allied forces in Northern Europe, Eisenhower was. Market Garden may have been Montgomeries plan but it was obviously signed off by those above him which must imply that they at least thought it had a fair chance of success. The fact was the British and Americans wanted a speedy end to the war not just to limit casualties on their own side but out of fear of how far into Europe the Red Army would reach, and were willing to try more less anything. Also it is my understanding that the Poles also fought at Arnhem or just outside but they hardly ever seem to get mentioned, though they were shown in the film A Bridge Too Far.

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

The operation wasn't even Monty's plan. It was mainly a US planned operation that was loosely based on Operation Comet, which Monty cancelled because it was too risky. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_H._Brereton#:~:text=After%20alerts%20and%20cancellations%20of,but%20then%20cancelled%20by%20Montgomery.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

And Eisenhower, who took Montgomery's job of C-in-C of all ground forces on September 1st did not move from his HQ near Cherbourg. He remained 600km from his armies at the front. His HQ had terrible communications. Montgomery said that was a useless place for a ground forces commander to be, because a ground forces commander needed to have his finger on the pulse and react quickly to ever changing situations.

[@johnburns4017]

@@lyndoncmp5751 Ike stayed there as the under sea comms line to London was there.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

​@@johnburns4017Yes, that was fine for just Supreme Commander, but from September 1st he was now C-in-C of all ground forces as well and needed to be in close communication with his forward armies. He wasn't. He had terrible communications with them. As Montgomery said, it was a useless location for a C-in-C of ground forces.

[@FredScuttle456]

The US suffered casualties twice as great in the Battle of the Hurtgen Forest. And got less out of it.

[@aaropajari7058]

And they never discuss it.

[@Deleted11100]

Let’s be honest, the US haven’t ever won a war. Even 1776 was fought and won by a mix of Dutch, Spanish, French and British. They are a big sack of Walter Mittys.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

And 52,000 battle casualties in the Lorraine, and never got out of it. Operation Queen also suffered more casualties and didn't achieve it's objectives.

[@davidmcintyre998]

I am not American but feel that tragic battle is swept under the carpet, fingers pointed elsewhere to cover up sending brave young Americans to fight in a forest is similar to sending men to fight in a city reduced to rubble very costly.

[@FredScuttle456]

@@davidmcintyre998 Hurtgen Forest was the inspiration behind the Battle of the Bulge. The former Austrian watercolourist saw how his depleted troops could give the US a bloody nose in a forest.

[@andym9571]

But why was it a defeat ? The failure of the 82nd to take Nijmegan bridge on day one as per plan ?

[@JevansUK]

100% agree

[@lyndoncmp5751]

The caution of the USAAF and RAF commanders moreso I'd say. The refusal to fly double missions on day one and not dropping closer to the Arnhem bridge were fatal. The Germans concluded that in a report right after the battle. Gavin TWICE ordered Lindquist to move on the Nijmegen road bridge on day one but Lindquist either misheard or just didn't have the gusto to do it.

[@JayMac-gh1kx]

I had 4'uncle's who was in this rade an only 2came out 😊 top info on the show 😊 we will remember them!!

[@shirleymental4189]

My grandad was in the trenches at armen. He never talked about it, until he did.

[@marklittle8805]

Al and his obsession with Arnhem has infected me and I am not British. But hearing his podcast with James Holland it is clear Al has an obsession with the battle for Arnhem. At first I was perplexed, but he has won me over. British history is famous for celebrating the valour of losses. Al has me hoping that one last time they could take and hold the bridge

[@nickdanger3802]

Arnhem Rail Bridge look at any map of Arnhem AO that has landing zones and a scale of miles/km and you will see LZ Z is 4 miles/6k from the rail bridge. "the first of those bound for LZ-Z came in at 13:19. This lift contained Major-General Urquhart's Headquarters and approximately half of the Divisional Units, included amongst which were the Jeeps of the Reconnaissance Squadron, two batteries of the 1st Airlanding Light Regiment, and also the 1st Parachute Brigade's vehicles and anti-tank guns." Pegasus Archive The First Lift (Sunday 17th September)

[@jim.franklin]

There are many myths and opinions that surround the whole of this operation. Many commentators incorrectly say Market-Garden was a failure, failing to recognise that this was two operations and that the operation was, overall, about 90% successful. The issues faced by the troops in Arnhem was many fold. 1. General Browning ignoring intel about German forces in the area, dismissing these tropps as old men and boys with limited equipment, even though aerial photographs and Dutch resistance reports clearly indicated that Bittrich's 2nd SS Panzer Corp where in the area, with Bittrich being positively identified. 2. Officers failing to tell Monty that they lacked sufficient aircraft to launch the attack as he planned, needing multiple drops. 3. The Radios issued not working - and failing to allow those in the town to communicate with anyone and change the air drop locations and coordinate attacks. 4. The weather in England caused the delay in the drops for 4th Brigade (My Grandfather) and the the Polish Brigade (General Sosabowski). 5. The 4th and Polish Brigades being dropped so far from Arnhem they were unable to provide practical support to the troops in Arnhem as they were unable to get into the town due to German resistance. 6. The US failure to secure the Nijemgen Bridge was THE major failure, in fact, this was the failure that led to the catastrophic result at Arnhem - this caused the delay of 30 Corps and the delay in relieving the the Paras in the town. 7. Failure of the RAF and US to be allowed to provide air cover to aid the ground troops and stop the free movement of German forces, especially armour. The Yanks like to blame the British, but it is just as simple to blame Gavin's troops, however, both of these misses key points and is unfair to the troops who fought and died on these battlefields, we should not forget that luck played a role in the German reactions.

[@johnburns4017]

You got number 6, right many of the others were off mark. Monty never planned it. See my other posts on this vid.

[@jim.franklin]

@@johnburns4017 I knew people who were there and heavily involved in Market Garden - ironically - on both sides due to having German in the family. My grandfather was a senior commander for the Allies and I had an uncle in the South Staffs

[@johnburns4017]

@@jim.franklin My post still stands. I knew four men at Market Garden, one my uncle. But that is meaningless.

[@jim.franklin]

@@johnburns4017 You are incorrect in your assumption. My comments are based on statements by both General Sir John Hackett and General Roy Urquehart in personal conversations at doinner parties and other events.

[@johnburns4017]

​@@jim.franklin _1. General Browning ignoring intel about German forces in the area,_ He never, do not go by the film _2. Officers failing to tell Monty that they lacked sufficient aircraft to launch the attack as he planned, needing multiple drops._ Monty never planned it. RAF offered to man the aircraft to do a second run. FAAA refused. _3. The Radios issued not working _ They worked. High iron content in the area affected radios. Also many were out of range. _4. The weather in England caused the delay in the drops for 4th Brigade (My Grandfather) and the the Polish Brigade (General Sosabowski)._ That the weather did. _5. The 4th and Polish Brigades being dropped so far from Arnhem they were unable to provide practical support_ They were only on the rescue mission. _6. The US failure to secure the Nijemgen Bridge was THE major failure,_ *Correct.* _7. Failure of the RAF and US to be allowed to provide air cover to aid the ground troops and stop the free movement of German forces, especially armour._ Correct.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Greatest defeats? Come now it failed but the Allies weren't directly defeated. In fact if the 82nd US Airborne had taken their bridge on the first day the 30th Corps would not have been held up and been able to help the Paras to keep control of Arnhem bridge.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

The failure of Market Garden extended World War II by 6-7 months.

[@davidbrown5411]

If the 1st Airborne Division could have foreseen what would become of this country, they may not have bothered. Their bravery and sacrifice has been utterly betrayed.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Still one of the greatest countries in the world. People today are wealthier live longer have more freedoms, choices and ability to do what they want. It's better today than back then. My grandfather came back from Burma and had to go down the pits in Wales. He was dead by his mid 60s suffering lung problems for years. Nobody has to live like that today. We didn't even have the NHS in 1944.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@lyndoncmp5751 THe NHS was created by Marshall Aid. Now Labour is privatising it.

[@gloin10]

How is life on Toxic Fantasy Island?

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@gloin10 Labour began the privatisation of the NHS.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

​@@Jeremy-y1t What's that got to do with my post? Britain has better healthcare today than in 1944. It's overall a better country now than back then and governments certainly aren't forcing thousands of young men to give up their lives dying in foreign lands.

[@cookudysu90]

@Times Radio - Arnhem was one of the worst British military defeats of ww2 alongside, The Malayan Campaign, Singapore, The sinking of Force Z, The second siege of Tobruk, Gazala, The sinking of HMS Hood, HMS Barham and Royal oak, The battle of France etc.

[@IronBhoy]

I love Al. He’s got a brilliant mind and he’s hilarious as The Pub Landlord.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

He's a left-wing shill, and an unfunny Anglophobic racist.

[@Harryhas26]

An interviewer that knew his stuff. Nice

[@johnburns4017]

Not really.

[@Harryhas26]

@@johnburns4017 much more than the average

[@keithlegge6848]

The German commanding general said it was a success. It gave us a bridgehead to cross the Rhine and split the German forces in the area.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

It extended the war by 6-7 months.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@@Jeremy-y1t The Broad front strategy extended the war, it gave the Germans all the time to dig in.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@Bullet-Tooth-Tony- Gavin caused the failure of Market Garden.

[@davidgray3321]

The parachute regiment were I believe selected for their attitude, character, spirit - are the words that spring to mind. I met a number of them at the cenotaph in about 1990, they were a group of Scottish paras that had been on Crete, which was not an easy military initiative. They were noticeably unusually plucky despite all that , all those years later, one in a kilt said words to the effect of, “after Crete the Germans didn’t want to fight us again, oh no” (meaning the Scottish paras). Think Jack Russell’s in terms of pluck, or “up for it” as a commando said once in an interview. Selected for that spirit and as tight with their comrades as it is possible to be, exceptional people. Ready for anything in fact.

[@jonhart7630]

In terms of magnitude the fall of Malaysia and Singapore was the British Empire's biggest defeat in WW2. To compound that they lost the Prince of Wales and Repulse at the same time.

[@Falstaff1893]

Armchair historians forget that Arnhem was virtually surrounded by battle hardened German forces & flying troops into that area was a big gamble as was unfortunately proved by what happened after

[@lyndoncmp5751]

There was actually comparatively few German forces in the area immediately available, and next to no tanks. The Airborne forces should have had more than enough to deal with what the Germans had there at the time. However, instead of flying double missions on day one the drops were dispersed over days. Unfortunately during those days the Germans were able to send in powerful reinforcements from Germany. Nearly all the armour the Germans used in Market Garden was sent in from Germany from the second day onwards. It mostly wasn't there in the Netherlands when the paras dropped.

[@stevewiles7132]

Lost a distant relative there, he was a radio operator

[@ArunLal-d6s]

Too bad it was under-resourced. I like Ike, but not his broad front advance. Bernie was right in this case - a little schwerpunkt.

[@nickdanger3802]

war ended when 2,500,000 Soviets surrounded Berlin and arty could be heard in hitlers bunker

[@neilherring]

For all its flaws, A Bridge Too Far is a great film. Made before the the birth of the awful CGI. The scene where the British are shelling the Germans is unbelievable, as is the look on Michael Caine's face, as he had no ideawhatt was coming.

[@Britephartt]

As an actual ex-military man I disagree with the comedian/Pub Landlord. The British held their objective for longer that expected so that element was a success. It was the relief element that failed and that was not Arnhem.

[@rexbarron4873]

I would imagine that a divisional defeat does not compare with an army defeat..... 30,000 Japanese defeated a British army of 120,000 at Singapore.....thats what I call a defeat.

[@barbararice6650]

No there were sixty thousand Japanese and thirty thousand British troops 🙄

[@angloaust1575]

The japanese bluffed a surrender they were low on Artillery ammunition which the british didn't know Anyway although they were Inferior in numbers they were More experienced in fighting!

[@rexbarron4873]

@@barbararice6650 Research before posting..... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Singapore

[@JimmySailor]

That it was an ambitious plan that didn’t work is perhaps forgivable. However what is absolutely disgusting is British treatment of the Polish brigade after the battle. General Sosabowski in particular was singled out despite a flawless effort during the battle and his unit suffering 40% casualties. Montgomery threw him and the Poles under the bus just weeks after the battle in a shameful display of self-preservation. Sosabowski had been a notable critic of the plan from the beginning yet allowed his unit to be used, almost destroyed, out of respect for the war effort. For his sacrifices he and his men were betrayed by the British. He wasn’t even granted a pension after the war. He ended his days tending bar at a hotel trying to make ends meet for his family after the Soviet takeover of Poland.

[@johndawes9337]

it was not Monty who blamed Sosabowski it was boy Browning.as for a pension that would be down to the polish government and he worked in a warehouse not a bar.

[@nickdanger3802]

"Browning would also later design his own personal uniform, made of barathea with a false Uhlan-style front, incorporating a zip opening at the neck to reveal regulation shirt and tie. A highly polished Sam Browne belt after the style of the Guards was worn over this, as were the usual medal ribbons, collar patches and rank badges, the entire ensemble being completed with grey kid gloves and a swagger stick. It was this uniform that he wore during Operation Market Garden in September 1944." Pegasus Archive Browning page

[@Jack-Hands]

Arnhem is in Gelderland. Not Holland.

[@ShizukuSeiji]

No. Singapore was Britain's greatest defeat, by a long LONG way. Operation Market Garden on the other hand achieved 90% of its objectives and was relatively successful, but the casualty list was too long.

[@Jeremy-y1t]

The Suez Crisis is the greatest defeat.

[@IRISHSALTMINER61]

Hardly a defeat, the paras kept an entire SS panzer division, on their toes, for a number of days, all without air cover, or artillery/armoured support…

[@Jeremy-y1t]

All for nothing.

[@karen12359339]

Got to say Al what about the polish paratroopers who also dropped and fought at Arnhem

[@fallschirmjager0000]

it wouldnt be for him to say that, he would have to admit the poles won the battle of britain for them too

[@petekadenz9465]

And the Dorsets which he seems to think didn’t fight at Arnhem.

[@darthcheese7971]

They get plenty of comments in the podcast.

[@jamestanis3274]

YES! I made the same point in a different post. The only rationale that I can come up with is that, in writing the book, he has perhaps become quite hyper-focused on Tuesday the 19th (I think the say 18th in the broadcast, but I assume that was just an oversight) and Poles dropped on the 21st. Pretty weak argument for not acknowledging a group that sustained 90% casualties *in* *the* *air*.

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

​@@fallschirmjager0000: NO, the Poles HELPED to win the Battle of Britain. They nowhere near "won" it on their own.

[@louisdisbury9759]

Scattered drop Zones, No communications, and Panzer groups on the Ground totally ignored by Browning who used 27 Dakotas to move his headquarters s to Holland, What possibly could go wrong?.

[@hennokeers4641]

It's 36 horsa's... Which could be used for soldiers.

[@scottstump1770]

Nice drums, how do you like those BDC's? 😊

[@EnglishCad]

30 corpe stopped for tea accoding to the film? My mate Bernard was there as a glider pilot and we went back a few times. He got back across the river and slept for two days straight afterwards. Home on leave and a lady neighbour told him off for not doing his bit.🙄

[@Jeremy-y1t]

The film was left-wing fiction.

[@greybirdo]

Oh for heaven’s sake. Not even the worst defeat of that fecking war. Malaya & Singapore? Burma? BEF in 1940?

[@Paratus7]

Singapore. Definitely Singapore.

[@cookudysu90]

The whole Malaya campaign, Hong Kong, Force Z etc

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@cookudysu90 Suez.

[@brianaustin8989]

I was talking to a fellow member of a club I was in, when he casually let slip he had been at Arnhem. He was an insurance salesman that totally came over as he never would have been there at all. He told me they were all pent up as they were denied action on D Day, so could not wait to get involved. What he did plant in my mind was of a guy charging forward, whose legs were cut off at the knees with a burst o f MG42, but carried on running on the stumps of his legs, till he fell.

[@philpembroke5373]

I'd like to leave a comment, Al.

[@apik9446]

Pls see on the fall of Singapore!!!

[@RTD553]

I don't like stickers on guitars, they're not needed. It's akin to painting a dog.

[@chrisgibbings9499]

Exactly.

[@garywagner2466]

What about putting stickers on dogs?

[@RTD553]

@@garywagner2466 I wouldn't mind that so much.

[@cryhavoc999]

As a defeat it pales compared to Trobruk and Gazala, Crete, Singapore and Dunkirk. What it does represent was a massive missed opportunity in trapping an entire German Army in Western Holland and making the subsequent Scheldt ops 'easier' as well as outflanking the West wall and directly threatening the Ruhr valley (if nothing more than in the minds of the German high command). A lot of people are very critical that the battle took place but my only critique is that it failed.

[@johnburns4017]

Dunkirk was not a defeat. Tobruk was strategically useless - only Churchill insisted it be retained. Gazala? please!

[@cryhavoc999]

@@johnburns4017 Are you saying Gazala was not a defeat?

[@grahamkelly5846]

My dad was wounded and captured and spent 21st birthday in Stalag X1 never talked about it

[@jeffersonwright6249]

Britain suffered two major defeats at the hands of the Wehrmacht: the Battle for France and Operation Market Garden. Fascinating that British historians consistently communicate both disasters as “magnificent feats of arms”

[@johndawes9337]

Dunkirk was a small miracle taking off 400k troops as for MG it was more of a American op. planned by Brereton and Williams after Ike gave them the plans of COMET.

[@thevillaaston7811]

MARKET GARDEN freed a fifth of the Netherlands, hindered German rocket attacks on London, stretched German defences another fifty miles, and left the allies well placed to attack into Germany in the months ahead. The threat of V2 Rocket attacks on London, alone justified MARKET GARDEN. One airbourne division was left isolated due to the weather and was overwhelmed by opposing forces. In France in 1940 Britain had 250K troops in one place, and 150K troops in another place, with the two hundreds of miles apart. How were they suposed to defeat the 3 million man German army on their own?..

[@jeffersonwright6249]

@@thevillaaston7811 in both cases through better coordination. And alleviating the V2 threat was never OMG’s primary mission, was it?

[@thevillaaston7811]

@@jeffersonwright6249 'in both cases through better coordination.' FRANCE 1940: The battle took place in France. France supplied the overwhelming number allied troops. The allied commander in chief was French. The head of the BEF, Gort did not even have a place on the supreme allied council. MARKET GARDEN 1944: The MARKET airborne forces were under the command of US General Brereton until such as they linked up the GARDEN ground forces. 'And alleviating the V2 threat was never OMG’s primary mission, was it?' Who can say?.. VCIGS, General Nye to Montgomery, 9th September 1944. 'Two rockets so called V.2 landed in England yesterday. Believed to have been fired from areas near ROTTERDAM and AMSTERDAM. Will you please report most urgently by what approximate date you consider you can rope off the Coastal area contained by ANTWERP-UTRECHT-ROTTERDAM. When this area is in our hands the threat from this weapon will probably have dis-appeared.' N.B. VCIGS is Vice Chief of the Imperial General Staff - to save you looking it up. THE GUNS AT LAST LIGHT THE WAR IN WESTERN EUROPE, 1944-1945 Rick Atkinson LITTLE BROWN 2013. P245/246 ‘The initial [V2 rocket] volley had been fired from Holland, and the SS general overseeing PENGUIN had placed his headquarters outside Nijmegen, ‘a Dutch town only ten miles south of Arnhem on the Rhine, a prime objective of Operation MARKET GARDEN. The message from London advising Montgomery of the first rocket attacks also pleaded, “Will you please report most urgently by what date you consider you can rope off the coastal area contained by Antwerp-Utrecht-Rotterdam?” While General Dempsey and others favored a more easterly advance toward the Rhine at Wesel, this new German onslaught further persuaded Montgomery to drive deep into Holland. “It must be towards Arnhem.” He said.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Market Garden was the fastest allied advance against German opposition in the entire September 1944 to February 1945 period. It was 90% successful. The Germans retreated and lost nearly 100km of ground including Eindhoven and Nijmegen.

[@colmmagill4097]

It still would have mattered if the British had taken Arnhem. The Germans still had a lot of resources at their hands. Plus when they got near Berlin they basically stopped as they had to face the Wencks group front and the German 9th army were fighting the Russians in the east. They didn't want to have casualties like the Russians were having. Plus when you look at what the Germans threw at them in Belgium they basically nearly cut the allied forces in half. Montgomery wasn't a good commander he gets all the praise for North Africa when it was Auchinleck who had set up the defense in Egypt and had repelled Rommel a number of times the battle lines were drawn up. Montgomery only moved when he had a 3 to 1 superiority. Just like all his commands

[@Jeremy-y1t]

Gavin caused the failure of Market Garden.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@Jeremy-y1t who told Browning to take 38 of 1st AB's gliders, capacity about 1,000 infantrymen, to lift his useless HQ to Nijmegen ? who told 1st AB to take four hours to travel 4 miles/6km from LZ Z to the rail bridge ?

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@nickdanger3802 Eisenhower.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@Jeremy-y1t "With Eisenhower’s endorsement, Montgomery ordered Lieut.-General Frederick ‘Boy’ Browning, Deputy Commander, First Allied Airborne Army, to return to England to start immediate detailed planning and set 17 September - just one week later - as the D-Day (day operation was to be executed)." "On 14 September, Montgomery issued his ‘Operational Appreciation M 525’ summarising his plan." RAF Museum The Royal Air Force and Operation Market Garden: Chapter 2

[@Jeremy-y1t]

@@nickdanger3802 It was an American-planned operation. The UK and its defunct empire was only a satellite of the United States after 1940.